Fish are compassionate, recognize themselves in the mirror, and fancy designed shelters over natural ones. Recent experiments contest common ideas of what distinguishes humans from smaller, non-mammalian creatures of the sea.

In the second episode of the podcast Ocean Wants, speculative writer Ingo Niermann, most recently of the book Mare Amoris, is talking to Alex Jordan, Principal Investigator at the Department of Collective Behaviour at the Max Planck Institute in Konstanz, Germany. We speak at this home near Lake Constance.

— Ocean Wants, Institut Art Gender Nature dertank.ch and TBA21–Academy, ocean-archive.org