How do we create focus, alignment, and meaningful impact in organisations, without collapsing into command and control?

In this episode, Janna speaks with designer, coach, and author Josh Seiden to explore how OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) can help organisations shift from output-focused delivery to outcome-driven learning. But this isn’t a how-to guide for setting metrics, it’s a rich conversation about the cultural and structural shifts OKRs can spark when used well.

Together, they discuss:

• Why OKRs are more than a planning tool, and what makes them transformative
• The origin of OKRs in Peter Drucker’s Management by Objectives and Andy Grove’s refinements at Intel
• The importance of “aligned autonomy” in complex organisations
• How OKRs can unlock local emergence, experimentation, and decision-making
• The difference between outputs, outcomes, and impacts, and how to use OKRs to connect the dots
• The value of starting small and making it safe to fail
• How to avoid turning OKRs into theatre, and make them meaningful

Josh also shares a powerful framing from his new book, Who Does What By How Much, that helps teams focus on real behavioural outcomes. Along the way, he and Janna explore what it means to orchestrate impact across functions, layers, and teams and why complexity demands new ways of working.

00:00 Introduction to Orchestrate For Impact00:56 Josh's journey with OKRs03:19 Understanding OKRs: Objectives and Key Results06:12 The evolution and impact of OKRs14:41 Implementing OKRs in organisations15:45 OKRs as a tool for cultural change22:53 Practical examples and case studies29:16 The OKR cycle and continuous improvement31:01 Aligning OKRs with broader societal impacts47:54 Final thoughts and advice for orchestrators

About Josh Seiden:

Josh Seiden is a designer, product person, author, entrepreneur, and coach who helps teams and organisations create the culture, practices, and outcomes that enable great work. He is the co-founder of Sense & Respond Learning, and the author or co-author of several influential books including:

• Who Does What By How Much (S&R Press, 2024)
• Outcomes Over Output (S&R Press, 2019)
• Sense & Respond (Harvard, 2017)
• Lean UX (O’Reilly, 3rd Ed, 2021)

He also writes about product development, photography and baking on his Substack: joshuaseiden.substack.com

Links & Resources

• Sense & Respond Learning https://senseandrespond.co/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jseiden/
• Peter Drucker, Management by Objective
• Andy Grove, Intel
• Eric Ries, The Lean Startup https://theleanstartup.com/
• Christina Wodtke, https://cwodtke.com/
• Logic Model, Kellogg Foundation https://www.wkkf.org/resources/
• Orchestrate for Impact with Systemic Design with Dr Tim Tompson

Follow Orchestrate for Impact

• Website: www.orchestrateforimpact.com
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/orchestrate-for-impact
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OrchestrateforImpact/podcasts
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37BnWvatGQyU5AkRY7ibXU?si=G2f_htBsRi6LvDzjPzhcAw
• Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/orchestrate-for-impact/id1816620342

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Music

Intro and outro music by Eli DeVylder “43 (fin)” - used with permission

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