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Penny Kittle and Micro Mentor Texts
Listen to my conversation with Penny Kittle, author of Micro Mentor Texts: Using Short Passages From Great Books to Teach Writer’s Craft (Scholastic, 2022). This will be our book club selection for January - March 2026. Join the chat below.
Full subscribers can also access the video recording of our conversation here. See a preview below.
Brief Bio
* Penny is a long time teacher at every level of education. She writes about her practice at https://substack.com/@pennykittle.
* She is the author of several books, including Write Beside Them and 180 Days (with Kelly Gallagher, with whom she also co-hosts digital discussions).
* Penny is also the chairman of the board for the Book Love Foundation, dedicated to providing “classroom libraries comprised of hundreds of books carefully chosen by the teachers to meet students where they are and lead them to the deep rewards of reading”. Check out the Book Love Foundation Podcast to learn more.
* When not in the classroom, Penny enjoys spending time with her grandchildren in New Hampshire.
Summary
In this conversation, Penny talk about a variety of topics, including:
* the importance of teachers being knowledgeable and able to problem solve,
* how to build students’ confidence as writers by showing them the process of writing that you as a teacher use, and
* simple strategies, such as prompt writing, that can lead to students engaged in deep conversations during book clubs.
Educators will walk away with a renewed sense of hope and agency in their own work with readers and writers.
What part of this conversation resonated the most with you? Share your thoughts in the comments.
Enjoyed this conversation? Restack and share this post to let others know!
Full Transcript
Matt Renwick: Hi, this is Matt Renwick, and welcome to Read by Example, where teachers are leaders and leaders know literacy. And I'm joined today by someone I've met, I think a year ago in Wisconsin, when she was here doing a training around micro-mentor texts, Penny Kittle, long-time teacher, professor, all things education, literacy. So welcome, Penny.Penny Kittle: Thanks, Matt. It's good to be on your podcast. I enjoyed meeting you that day, that was a lovely day.Matt Renwick: Yeah, it was fun. I don't think it was on my schedule, but I'm like, I'm gonna make this on my schedule, like, I wanna hear Penny talk. Just all the good things I've heard from Reggie Routman, and just what I read about you, so I was not disappointed. It was a great experience, and I know the teachers walked away that I was working with, like, this is good, like, we want... and I'm still working with those teachers, actually.Penny Kittle: Oh, that's cool.Matt Renwick: Yeah, we still talk about the micro-mentor text, and just giving them that foundation, that knowledge that I think they were craving. They were looking for just a resource, and you really give them some nice ideas to build their practice, so...Penny Kittle: That's good.Matt Renwick: So I have been reading, as this year before, Micro Mentor Text through Heinemann, Using Short Passages from Great Books to Teach Writer's Craft.Penny Kittle: From Scholastic, just so they would want to know that.Matt Renwick: Oh, I'm sorry. I told you I'd mess something up, Penny.Penny Kittle: We all do.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I'm not gonna edit it out, though, so... Thank you for correcting me. Yeah, Scholastic. And, yeah, terrific book, very practical, very wise. I'm like, I think I'm highlighting the footnotes as much as the content.Penny Kittle: Oh, that's so funny. I had so much fun writing that with footnotes.Matt Renwick: Just the asides were just really cool, some of the cool stories from, like, Don Graves and Don Murray. But your subtitle says it pretty well, but what is your definition of a mentor text? Because I hear that tossed around a lot. What makes a mentor text micro?Penny Kittle: Yeah, I mean, I think that I always talk to students about, we're mentors to the authors and their craft, right? The text is just that particular vehicle, and we're using it to say, what kind of decisions do writers make? Are they things that I want to try? Are things that I want to imitate, or are these things that will make my writing stronger? So anytime we're studying anything, we're looking at pieces of work in that genre. You know, it's the idea of authenticity in a writing classroom. We're making things that exist in the world, and here are some people who make those things, and then what do our essays or poems or whatever we're writing look like next to them. And so, micro-mentor texts came about because I do quick writing with kids day after day, and I realized how much of the time, if I used a passage from a book, and said, what do you think of this? What do you... and used it instead of the whole, that I could get them interested in reading a book, but I could also, in a few minutes, look at craft. It was almost... I think we put a magnifying glass on the cover of the book, because I said it's like, a micro-mentor text is small enough that you can just look at it carefully. And you can't do that with a whole book. So, that is the idea, is that we look at a passage, we think about how does it work, and we imitate it.Matt Renwick: I used to teach 5th and 6th grade, and I would do, like, book blurbs, and I would read a small passage from it to promote it, to recommend it, but what you're saying here is you almost got, like, a two-for-one, like you're sharing great literature, but you're also honing in on those specific craft moves that writers do.Penny Kittle: It is definitely the way to combine a book talk with a little bit of writing. And I, you know, I honestly feel like I've taught more grammar through Micro Mentor texts than anything else. Because I'm often, when I ask them, what do you notice? Talk to each other, and I wander the room, they'll bring things up. You know, what is that? Is that the colon or the semicolon? What's it, you know, if it doesn't come up naturally, I often don't have to say anything, but I like that oftentimes this organic... Okay, do you see how this sentence is structured? Why is this such a long sentence, kind of thing. A really natural way to make grammar a decision, not a right or wrong.Matt Renwick: Yeah, you're pulling the lines away from the craft of it, you know, you're giving kids access to a writer, to the author's intentions.Penny Kittle: Right. And their choices.Matt Renwick: Yeah. So, let me frame it this way. I think with the science of reading, a lot of folks are concerned with decoding, and how kids learn to read, and I see less about actually helping kids comprehend text. I mean, it's there, but it's not as prevalent. And there's like this double-edged sword where I think literacy leaders, teachers want to get away from the 3-cueing system, we want to support kids with being good decoders. But I think what happens is we're not teaching kids to like read text for real, like once kids know to decode a word, what's the purpose of actually reading the text? And so what I like about your book is, you're using real text, you know, kids are reading it for real reasons, and so I'm wondering what are the connections between micro-mentor texts and the science of reading that you've been thinking about.Penny Kittle: I mean, I think for me, in the idea of what I do with a micro-mentor text, I'm not decoding it, right? Unless they're stopping and asking me. But I usually read it to them. And so I'm a fluent model, or another student in the room is a fluent model. And then we're diving into this idea of the pattern, the rhythm, what makes it interesting? And so to me, when you're looking at written text and thinking about writing text, you need fluency. And fluency is one of the pieces of the science of reading. So sometimes I'll have kids with me that are reading two and three years below grade level. And fluency was something that we never worked on. They're still word callers in high school. And so getting them to read with more automaticity and faster is gonna help comprehension because they're gonna have more energy and, you know, more focus to spend that effort on it, rather than in word by word. So my, you know, in the idea of the science of reading, I think that we have to first realize in secondary there are a lot of skills and strategies that I teach on a daily basis and a lot of kids lack. And so we have to keep teaching them and letting kids know it's okay to ask. You know, what does that word say? What is it? What does it mean? And when they hear us talk about it, then they learn, right? So I just think that there's a great emphasis on that 20 to 30 minutes of core instruction that, of course, is gonna support skills and strategies. But that then have a whole child, right? We can't just do 20 minutes of skills and strategies and think we've taught the whole learner. We need to get to comprehension, which is the whole point. And we also need to write, because when we're composing and creating text, we're adding to that power. The science of reading includes writing. It's not just about decoding. And I think sometimes that's where people come to rest. But of course, as you know, Scarborough's Reading Rope has both sides. And word recognition isn't any good without language comprehension. We need both of those things.Matt Renwick: So you do have like a routine in your book that you talk about. So you read text to kids. I've seen that example of you reading The Outsiders for example. But then what do you do after reading that text? What's the typical steps that you recommend?Penny Kittle: Well, I mean, the steps that I do are pretty simple. And I think that almost at any level, from elementary through college, you can do these steps. So I read a passage, or a student reads a passage. Then I say, turn and talk. What do you notice? And I give them time. And I try not to be the one that tells them. I want them to point out things. So they're gonna point out things. And then I might say, so what do you notice about this sentence? Or what do you notice about this? So I might do a little nudging in that conversation. And then we imitate it. So after they've talked about it and noticed it, I say, so take that idea. Let me show you an example of how I did it. Here's how I imitated it. Now you do your own. So they do a quick write. Sometimes that's five minutes or ten minutes. Sometimes they write for the rest of the class. And then many of those quick writes could stay in their journal forever. But often what I'll say to kids is, this might be the kind of craft technique that you want to save and try in your next piece, or that you might wanna use in your revision of your piece. So I'm teaching them to think about these tools as transferable to other times we write. Or I might, in that week or the next week, say, so I want you to take one from this list and put it in the piece you're working on. And then come talk to me, and I'll tell you whether I think it's working. So that's the steps. Read it, talk about it, imitate it, try it out.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I think you have Reggie Routman's steps there. And you also have that conversation in there around, like, self-assessment for kids. How did that work? What made that successful? What are you gonna do going forward? That agency piece, which I think is crucial for kids to take it on themselves, that responsibility for learning and being better.Penny Kittle: Yeah, I think for secondary especially. You know, what I like about Reggie is that shared demonstration step is so essential, and I think it's what's missed most of the time. So in secondary education, my professors would give me an assignment, like, you're gonna write a 15-page paper on this, and they wouldn't tell me how. They would just tell me to go do it. And that is completely lacking in what I think is good instruction. So when I'm writing with kids, I show them what I'm doing. I think aloud, I share my rough drafts. I show them, I think this is where I'm stuck, and I'm gonna try this. And that modeling and talking about our thinking is essential. And then we get kids writing, but we gotta talk about what we're doing. We've gotta show. That's the idea of a mentor text. We're gonna show you how someone else did it.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I can't think back to any instance in high school or college where I had a professor or teacher actually write with me or in front of me, and I had papers. So, yeah, it's a blind spot.Penny Kittle: Huge. And it is one that, you know, you and I have probably spent hundreds of hours doing this. Right? Because you write, and you know the challenges, and you think about kids, and you go, I need to help with this.Matt Renwick: Right. So those examples in the book, are those your writing or student writing, or both?Penny Kittle: They're both.Matt Renwick: Okay. So I think that's a good way to kind of mix it up. You give kids that authentic example from someone who's actually learning, and then yours. Did kids ever give you a hard time? Like, you're a published author, like, of course you're gonna write well. Like, this is easy for you. Or did you share your struggles as a writer?Penny Kittle: I shared my struggles all the time. And, you know, my quickwrites are way messier than the kids'. You know, I often would have scratch-outs and things where they would have done it on a computer and deleted. But I would just start with paper so that I could show them, and so, no. I mean, the kids, you know, it was funny. When I started writing Write Beside Them, I didn't have a publisher yet. I'd been working on it for a couple of years. And I, one day in class, I had a girl who said, do you even write? I said, I've been writing a book for two years. She said, well, when's it coming out? I said, I don't have a publisher. And she said, so you're just like us. And I said, yeah, I'm just like you. I'm trying to figure out how to get my work published just like you are. And I was in NCTE, and I went to Heinemann and pitched them the idea. And I came back and said, I have a publisher. And so it was, you know, it's not like I was sitting on this huge legacy of, like, I'm a published author. I was just somebody trying to figure it out, you know? And I think kids respond to that. They respond to our humanity.Matt Renwick: Yeah, and just the vulnerability of sharing, like, I don't have this down either, like, I'm still trying to figure this out.Penny Kittle: Yeah.Matt Renwick: So, you talked about teaching 180. Are you still teaching? 'Cause I know in the book you mentioned...Penny Kittle: No, I'm not.Matt Renwick: Okay, so what, about seven years ago or so?Penny Kittle: I retired in 2018, and then I taught another couple of years, so probably six years ago. Yeah.Matt Renwick: Okay. So I remember you telling, like, a story, I think it was your first year teaching, where, like, you handed out a paper, and kids were, like, upset about the directions, or something like that. Do you remember that story?Penny Kittle: I probably told that story, but I don't remember exactly. Tell me more.Matt Renwick: I think it was just like, you had made some assumptions about, like, what kids would understand, and they didn't understand it, and they got frustrated, and you're like, okay, I need to be more clear about what I'm asking kids to do.Penny Kittle: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, that happens all the time, right? We make assumptions about what kids know, and they don't. And so we have to be really clear. And I think that's one of the things that I learned early on was, I need to show them what I want. I can't just tell them. I have to show them. And that's, again, that idea of shared demonstration.Matt Renwick: So, circling back to your book, I know you have a chapter on nonfiction, which I appreciated because I think a lot of times when we talk about writing, we're talking about narrative or fiction. But you have a whole chapter on that. What are some key things you want teachers to know about teaching nonfiction writing?Penny Kittle: Well, I think that, you know, we read so much nonfiction now. We read articles, we read blogs, we read all kinds of things online. And so kids need to be able to write that way. And I think that one of the things that I tried to do in that chapter was to say, here are some patterns that nonfiction writers use. Here are some ways to organize your thinking. And I think that's really helpful for kids. Because sometimes they sit down to write an essay, and they don't know where to start. And if we can give them some structures, some patterns, then they have something to lean on. And that's what mentor texts do. They give us something to lean on. So, you know, I think that nonfiction is really important. And I think that we need to teach it more explicitly. Because it's not as intuitive as narrative for a lot of kids.Matt Renwick: Yeah, and I think, too, like, the connection to content areas. Like, if you're a science teacher or social studies teacher, like, you're writing nonfiction all the time. So having those examples, those mentor texts, I think is really helpful.Penny Kittle: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where, you know, in secondary, we have this huge advantage. We have kids for different content areas. And if we could coordinate and say, okay, in science, you're gonna write a lab report. Let me show you some mentor texts for lab reports. In social studies, you're gonna write an argument. Let me show you some mentor texts for arguments. Like, if we could do that, we would be so much more effective. But we don't often do that. We don't often coordinate across content areas.Matt Renwick: Right. So, I have a question about, like, the role of technology in writing. Because I know, you know, we have AI now, and we have all these tools. And I'm curious, like, what's your take on that? Like, how do we teach kids to write in a world where AI can write for them?Penny Kittle: Yeah, I think that's a huge question. And I think that, you know, we have to be honest with kids about the fact that AI exists. And we have to be honest with them about the fact that it can write. But we also have to help them understand that AI can't think for them. AI can't have their ideas. AI can't have their experiences. And so, you know, I think that what we need to do is we need to help kids understand that their voice matters. Their ideas matter. And that's what we're trying to develop. We're trying to develop their voice. We're trying to develop their thinking. And AI can't do that. AI can generate text, but it can't generate their ideas. And so I think that's where we need to focus. We need to focus on helping kids find their voice, find their ideas, and then we can use AI as a tool. But it shouldn't be a replacement for thinking.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I like that distinction. Like, AI can help with the mechanics, but it can't help with the meaning-making.Penny Kittle: Right. Exactly. And I think that's where we need to be. We need to help kids understand that. And we need to help them understand that, you know, the best writing comes from thinking. And AI doesn't think. It generates. And there's a big difference.Matt Renwick: So, thinking about your work, you know, you've been doing this for a long time. You've written several books. You have the Book Love Foundation. What's next for you? Like, what are you working on now?Penny Kittle: Well, I'm working on a few different things. I'm working on a book about leadership with a colleague. And I'm also working on some online courses for teachers. And I'm doing a lot of speaking. So I'm traveling a lot and talking to teachers. And I'm also working on my Substack. So I'm writing there. And I'm just trying to stay connected to teachers and stay connected to the work. Because I think that's really important. I don't want to lose touch with what's happening in classrooms. And so I'm trying to stay as connected as I can.Matt Renwick: That's great. And I think, you know, your Substack has been really helpful. I've been reading it. And I think it's a great way to stay connected to teachers and to share ideas. So, I appreciate that.Penny Kittle: Thanks. Yeah, I think it's been fun. I think it's a good way to just keep the conversation going.Matt Renwick: So, one more question about mentor texts. How do you find them? Like, where do you look for good mentor texts? Because I think sometimes teachers are like, I don't know where to start. Like, how do I find good examples?Penny Kittle: Well, I mean, I think that the first place you look is in what you're reading. So if you're reading, and you come across something that you think is really well-written, you save it. And I have, you know, I have a Google Doc that I've been adding to for years. And it's just a collection of passages that I think are really interesting. And I don't even know if I'll ever use all of them. But I save them. And then when I'm teaching, I go back and I look at that document. And I say, okay, what fits what I'm trying to teach right now? And so I think that's the first place. Just read a lot. And when you come across something that you think is really well-written, save it. And then the other place is just to look at books that are popular with kids. So, you know, what are kids reading? What are they excited about? And then you can pull passages from those books. And that's a great way to get kids interested in reading more. Because you're using books that they're already interested in.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I think that's a great strategy. And I think, too, like, you can also look at, like, articles and essays and things like that. Like, it doesn't have to just be fiction. It can be nonfiction, too.Penny Kittle: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where, you know, I use a lot of articles. I use a lot of essays. I use a lot of different kinds of texts. Because I want kids to see that there are lots of different ways to write. And there are lots of different purposes for writing. And so, yeah, I think that's really important.Matt Renwick: So, in your Google Doc, do you organize it in any particular way? Or is it just kind of a running list?Penny Kittle: It's just a running list. I mean, I should probably organize it better. But it's just a running list. And I copied a bunch of those, because they're very interesting. They're often patterns of language and interesting phrasing that I'm looking for, and I don't even know how many of those I would use if I were teaching right now, but that's where I collect them.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I'm sure they get in your brain, and then they show up somewhere else when you're writing and thinking.Penny Kittle: Right.Matt Renwick: I noticed your awesome library in the background. I was supposed to ask you about your wavy bookshelf, but I don't see it. That must be somewhere else.Penny Kittle: Oh yeah, that's in a different room, and honestly, it's because it was on this wall. My desk was turned this way, and I kept banging it with the back of my head, because it sticks out from the wall like a foot. I was like, I can't do this anymore. So it's gone.Matt Renwick: Oh, darn it.Penny Kittle: Yeah.Matt Renwick: But you had an interesting metaphor, I think in that same post I mentioned before, or just a visual, a library without books. So, to the point you're making was, we don't have writers, we don't have readers, and so making that connection for kids, and stressing the importance of building writers. So, just to kind of close things out, what classroom conditions are essential to help kids write for real, you know, write without rules, Matt De La Pena said in the forward to your book, and then writing for life. What are some essential classroom conditions? So you mentioned before, shared demonstration, that's a Heli-Dion.Penny Kittle: Yeah, yeah, and I think so much about teachers that are in classrooms right now, where they have a scripted curriculum, and I'm really connected to that idea that it demonstrates a lack of trust of teachers, and the idea that I was thinking today, because I was gonna be late to a doctor's appointment, and I was super annoyed with my husband that we were gonna be late, and I was watching every minute to be sure I could get there, and then I thought about the crowd that would be at the front door to the school that was always late. And I thought, what are the conditions that would make kids be like, I can't be late, I gotta get to first period? So, I think that it goes back to those pillars of engagement, right? We talk about this. So there's a science to engagement. We talked about the science of reading, but the science of engagement says that kids will use the skills and strategies we teach with greater persistence and effort when they're engaged. And then they learn more, right? Greater persistence and effort. So for me, it has to be that. So they need to write for real purposes and real audiences, and they need the conditions that say what they have to say matter, right? They need to be in writing groups so that they get more feedback than just mine. They're writing for, you know, and they'll, in a group of 3 or 4 other kids, often they may not want to at the start, but they become kids who share their writing. And when you have to read your writing to someone, or a part of your writing, and ask for help, you hear it differently. Those are essential conditions. We need lots of books, because the more you read, the better you write. That's just a simple formula. Wait, I wrote them down, what else did I put up here? Oh, relationships. So, it's not just the teacher, but the teacher has to have a relationship with reading and writing that is positive, and that knows its power, as well as its challenges, because I think when I first got my secondary credential, what was demonstrated in all my coursework was that I need to become an expert on texts. And that isn't what we need to be expert in. We need to be expert in kids and motivation, and learning how to talk to a kid that doesn't want to talk to you about what they're working on in a way that you can help them. We need to be really superb listeners, and so the conditions are, we have to be able to set up a flow within a class period so that I have time to meet with as many kids as I can, both as readers and as writers, and I need to have us write every day. I'm really into volume, right? We read every day, we write every day, we work on revision almost every day. So that the conditions are a kind of a mutual agreement that we're here to work. They have a playlist for every class, they choose it. Like, the cowboy one was always killing me off, but the boys in this one class, Outdoor Writing, all wanted this, you know, very cowboy-centered playlist, but that stuff helps them feel like it's their space, too. And I think that the teachers who, you know, there are teachers that I worked with every year who volunteered for everything, who were at every dance, and you know, they're just giving 110% to the school and the culture of the school. I love that, but they also have to be that in their classroom, so that their content comes alive and feels meaningful.Matt Renwick: Yeah. Trust the kids, trust themselves, yeah.Penny Kittle: It's so much about trust.Matt Renwick: Yeah. Well, this has been great, Penny. You've got your substack. What is the URL again? Is it...Penny Kittle: You mean my on Substack, I'm just Penny Kittle.Matt Renwick: Penny Kittle, okay.Penny Kittle: Yeah.Matt Renwick: And then you have the Book Love Foundation. Yep. Several resources, which I'll link in the notes.Penny Kittle: I have a YouTube channel that has all my interviews with Kelly Gallagher, and the different authors, and we're putting up... we just released a podcast today called The Moves Leaders Make. It's all about leaders we're interviewing, and those are on Apple, and we actually have about 4 or 5 seasons of Book Love podcasts on there, and there's a lot of places that you can find out more.Matt Renwick: Cool. Well, thanks, Penny, for being here, and good luck with your time, and your time to yourself. So, thank you for being here.Penny Kittle: Thanks so much, Matt.
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By Matt Renwick
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Listen to my conversation with Penny Kittle, author of Micro Mentor Texts: Using Short Passages From Great Books to Teach Writer’s Craft (Scholastic, 2022). This will be our book club selection for January - March 2026. Join the chat below.
Full subscribers can also access the video recording of our conversation here. See a preview below.
Brief Bio
* Penny is a long time teacher at every level of education. She writes about her practice at https://substack.com/@pennykittle.
* She is the author of several books, including Write Beside Them and 180 Days (with Kelly Gallagher, with whom she also co-hosts digital discussions).
* Penny is also the chairman of the board for the Book Love Foundation, dedicated to providing “classroom libraries comprised of hundreds of books carefully chosen by the teachers to meet students where they are and lead them to the deep rewards of reading”. Check out the Book Love Foundation Podcast to learn more.
* When not in the classroom, Penny enjoys spending time with her grandchildren in New Hampshire.
Summary
In this conversation, Penny talk about a variety of topics, including:
* the importance of teachers being knowledgeable and able to problem solve,
* how to build students’ confidence as writers by showing them the process of writing that you as a teacher use, and
* simple strategies, such as prompt writing, that can lead to students engaged in deep conversations during book clubs.
Educators will walk away with a renewed sense of hope and agency in their own work with readers and writers.
What part of this conversation resonated the most with you? Share your thoughts in the comments.
Enjoyed this conversation? Restack and share this post to let others know!
Full Transcript
Matt Renwick: Hi, this is Matt Renwick, and welcome to Read by Example, where teachers are leaders and leaders know literacy. And I'm joined today by someone I've met, I think a year ago in Wisconsin, when she was here doing a training around micro-mentor texts, Penny Kittle, long-time teacher, professor, all things education, literacy. So welcome, Penny.Penny Kittle: Thanks, Matt. It's good to be on your podcast. I enjoyed meeting you that day, that was a lovely day.Matt Renwick: Yeah, it was fun. I don't think it was on my schedule, but I'm like, I'm gonna make this on my schedule, like, I wanna hear Penny talk. Just all the good things I've heard from Reggie Routman, and just what I read about you, so I was not disappointed. It was a great experience, and I know the teachers walked away that I was working with, like, this is good, like, we want... and I'm still working with those teachers, actually.Penny Kittle: Oh, that's cool.Matt Renwick: Yeah, we still talk about the micro-mentor text, and just giving them that foundation, that knowledge that I think they were craving. They were looking for just a resource, and you really give them some nice ideas to build their practice, so...Penny Kittle: That's good.Matt Renwick: So I have been reading, as this year before, Micro Mentor Text through Heinemann, Using Short Passages from Great Books to Teach Writer's Craft.Penny Kittle: From Scholastic, just so they would want to know that.Matt Renwick: Oh, I'm sorry. I told you I'd mess something up, Penny.Penny Kittle: We all do.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I'm not gonna edit it out, though, so... Thank you for correcting me. Yeah, Scholastic. And, yeah, terrific book, very practical, very wise. I'm like, I think I'm highlighting the footnotes as much as the content.Penny Kittle: Oh, that's so funny. I had so much fun writing that with footnotes.Matt Renwick: Just the asides were just really cool, some of the cool stories from, like, Don Graves and Don Murray. But your subtitle says it pretty well, but what is your definition of a mentor text? Because I hear that tossed around a lot. What makes a mentor text micro?Penny Kittle: Yeah, I mean, I think that I always talk to students about, we're mentors to the authors and their craft, right? The text is just that particular vehicle, and we're using it to say, what kind of decisions do writers make? Are they things that I want to try? Are things that I want to imitate, or are these things that will make my writing stronger? So anytime we're studying anything, we're looking at pieces of work in that genre. You know, it's the idea of authenticity in a writing classroom. We're making things that exist in the world, and here are some people who make those things, and then what do our essays or poems or whatever we're writing look like next to them. And so, micro-mentor texts came about because I do quick writing with kids day after day, and I realized how much of the time, if I used a passage from a book, and said, what do you think of this? What do you... and used it instead of the whole, that I could get them interested in reading a book, but I could also, in a few minutes, look at craft. It was almost... I think we put a magnifying glass on the cover of the book, because I said it's like, a micro-mentor text is small enough that you can just look at it carefully. And you can't do that with a whole book. So, that is the idea, is that we look at a passage, we think about how does it work, and we imitate it.Matt Renwick: I used to teach 5th and 6th grade, and I would do, like, book blurbs, and I would read a small passage from it to promote it, to recommend it, but what you're saying here is you almost got, like, a two-for-one, like you're sharing great literature, but you're also honing in on those specific craft moves that writers do.Penny Kittle: It is definitely the way to combine a book talk with a little bit of writing. And I, you know, I honestly feel like I've taught more grammar through Micro Mentor texts than anything else. Because I'm often, when I ask them, what do you notice? Talk to each other, and I wander the room, they'll bring things up. You know, what is that? Is that the colon or the semicolon? What's it, you know, if it doesn't come up naturally, I often don't have to say anything, but I like that oftentimes this organic... Okay, do you see how this sentence is structured? Why is this such a long sentence, kind of thing. A really natural way to make grammar a decision, not a right or wrong.Matt Renwick: Yeah, you're pulling the lines away from the craft of it, you know, you're giving kids access to a writer, to the author's intentions.Penny Kittle: Right. And their choices.Matt Renwick: Yeah. So, let me frame it this way. I think with the science of reading, a lot of folks are concerned with decoding, and how kids learn to read, and I see less about actually helping kids comprehend text. I mean, it's there, but it's not as prevalent. And there's like this double-edged sword where I think literacy leaders, teachers want to get away from the 3-cueing system, we want to support kids with being good decoders. But I think what happens is we're not teaching kids to like read text for real, like once kids know to decode a word, what's the purpose of actually reading the text? And so what I like about your book is, you're using real text, you know, kids are reading it for real reasons, and so I'm wondering what are the connections between micro-mentor texts and the science of reading that you've been thinking about.Penny Kittle: I mean, I think for me, in the idea of what I do with a micro-mentor text, I'm not decoding it, right? Unless they're stopping and asking me. But I usually read it to them. And so I'm a fluent model, or another student in the room is a fluent model. And then we're diving into this idea of the pattern, the rhythm, what makes it interesting? And so to me, when you're looking at written text and thinking about writing text, you need fluency. And fluency is one of the pieces of the science of reading. So sometimes I'll have kids with me that are reading two and three years below grade level. And fluency was something that we never worked on. They're still word callers in high school. And so getting them to read with more automaticity and faster is gonna help comprehension because they're gonna have more energy and, you know, more focus to spend that effort on it, rather than in word by word. So my, you know, in the idea of the science of reading, I think that we have to first realize in secondary there are a lot of skills and strategies that I teach on a daily basis and a lot of kids lack. And so we have to keep teaching them and letting kids know it's okay to ask. You know, what does that word say? What is it? What does it mean? And when they hear us talk about it, then they learn, right? So I just think that there's a great emphasis on that 20 to 30 minutes of core instruction that, of course, is gonna support skills and strategies. But that then have a whole child, right? We can't just do 20 minutes of skills and strategies and think we've taught the whole learner. We need to get to comprehension, which is the whole point. And we also need to write, because when we're composing and creating text, we're adding to that power. The science of reading includes writing. It's not just about decoding. And I think sometimes that's where people come to rest. But of course, as you know, Scarborough's Reading Rope has both sides. And word recognition isn't any good without language comprehension. We need both of those things.Matt Renwick: So you do have like a routine in your book that you talk about. So you read text to kids. I've seen that example of you reading The Outsiders for example. But then what do you do after reading that text? What's the typical steps that you recommend?Penny Kittle: Well, I mean, the steps that I do are pretty simple. And I think that almost at any level, from elementary through college, you can do these steps. So I read a passage, or a student reads a passage. Then I say, turn and talk. What do you notice? And I give them time. And I try not to be the one that tells them. I want them to point out things. So they're gonna point out things. And then I might say, so what do you notice about this sentence? Or what do you notice about this? So I might do a little nudging in that conversation. And then we imitate it. So after they've talked about it and noticed it, I say, so take that idea. Let me show you an example of how I did it. Here's how I imitated it. Now you do your own. So they do a quick write. Sometimes that's five minutes or ten minutes. Sometimes they write for the rest of the class. And then many of those quick writes could stay in their journal forever. But often what I'll say to kids is, this might be the kind of craft technique that you want to save and try in your next piece, or that you might wanna use in your revision of your piece. So I'm teaching them to think about these tools as transferable to other times we write. Or I might, in that week or the next week, say, so I want you to take one from this list and put it in the piece you're working on. And then come talk to me, and I'll tell you whether I think it's working. So that's the steps. Read it, talk about it, imitate it, try it out.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I think you have Reggie Routman's steps there. And you also have that conversation in there around, like, self-assessment for kids. How did that work? What made that successful? What are you gonna do going forward? That agency piece, which I think is crucial for kids to take it on themselves, that responsibility for learning and being better.Penny Kittle: Yeah, I think for secondary especially. You know, what I like about Reggie is that shared demonstration step is so essential, and I think it's what's missed most of the time. So in secondary education, my professors would give me an assignment, like, you're gonna write a 15-page paper on this, and they wouldn't tell me how. They would just tell me to go do it. And that is completely lacking in what I think is good instruction. So when I'm writing with kids, I show them what I'm doing. I think aloud, I share my rough drafts. I show them, I think this is where I'm stuck, and I'm gonna try this. And that modeling and talking about our thinking is essential. And then we get kids writing, but we gotta talk about what we're doing. We've gotta show. That's the idea of a mentor text. We're gonna show you how someone else did it.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I can't think back to any instance in high school or college where I had a professor or teacher actually write with me or in front of me, and I had papers. So, yeah, it's a blind spot.Penny Kittle: Huge. And it is one that, you know, you and I have probably spent hundreds of hours doing this. Right? Because you write, and you know the challenges, and you think about kids, and you go, I need to help with this.Matt Renwick: Right. So those examples in the book, are those your writing or student writing, or both?Penny Kittle: They're both.Matt Renwick: Okay. So I think that's a good way to kind of mix it up. You give kids that authentic example from someone who's actually learning, and then yours. Did kids ever give you a hard time? Like, you're a published author, like, of course you're gonna write well. Like, this is easy for you. Or did you share your struggles as a writer?Penny Kittle: I shared my struggles all the time. And, you know, my quickwrites are way messier than the kids'. You know, I often would have scratch-outs and things where they would have done it on a computer and deleted. But I would just start with paper so that I could show them, and so, no. I mean, the kids, you know, it was funny. When I started writing Write Beside Them, I didn't have a publisher yet. I'd been working on it for a couple of years. And I, one day in class, I had a girl who said, do you even write? I said, I've been writing a book for two years. She said, well, when's it coming out? I said, I don't have a publisher. And she said, so you're just like us. And I said, yeah, I'm just like you. I'm trying to figure out how to get my work published just like you are. And I was in NCTE, and I went to Heinemann and pitched them the idea. And I came back and said, I have a publisher. And so it was, you know, it's not like I was sitting on this huge legacy of, like, I'm a published author. I was just somebody trying to figure it out, you know? And I think kids respond to that. They respond to our humanity.Matt Renwick: Yeah, and just the vulnerability of sharing, like, I don't have this down either, like, I'm still trying to figure this out.Penny Kittle: Yeah.Matt Renwick: So, you talked about teaching 180. Are you still teaching? 'Cause I know in the book you mentioned...Penny Kittle: No, I'm not.Matt Renwick: Okay, so what, about seven years ago or so?Penny Kittle: I retired in 2018, and then I taught another couple of years, so probably six years ago. Yeah.Matt Renwick: Okay. So I remember you telling, like, a story, I think it was your first year teaching, where, like, you handed out a paper, and kids were, like, upset about the directions, or something like that. Do you remember that story?Penny Kittle: I probably told that story, but I don't remember exactly. Tell me more.Matt Renwick: I think it was just like, you had made some assumptions about, like, what kids would understand, and they didn't understand it, and they got frustrated, and you're like, okay, I need to be more clear about what I'm asking kids to do.Penny Kittle: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, that happens all the time, right? We make assumptions about what kids know, and they don't. And so we have to be really clear. And I think that's one of the things that I learned early on was, I need to show them what I want. I can't just tell them. I have to show them. And that's, again, that idea of shared demonstration.Matt Renwick: So, circling back to your book, I know you have a chapter on nonfiction, which I appreciated because I think a lot of times when we talk about writing, we're talking about narrative or fiction. But you have a whole chapter on that. What are some key things you want teachers to know about teaching nonfiction writing?Penny Kittle: Well, I think that, you know, we read so much nonfiction now. We read articles, we read blogs, we read all kinds of things online. And so kids need to be able to write that way. And I think that one of the things that I tried to do in that chapter was to say, here are some patterns that nonfiction writers use. Here are some ways to organize your thinking. And I think that's really helpful for kids. Because sometimes they sit down to write an essay, and they don't know where to start. And if we can give them some structures, some patterns, then they have something to lean on. And that's what mentor texts do. They give us something to lean on. So, you know, I think that nonfiction is really important. And I think that we need to teach it more explicitly. Because it's not as intuitive as narrative for a lot of kids.Matt Renwick: Yeah, and I think, too, like, the connection to content areas. Like, if you're a science teacher or social studies teacher, like, you're writing nonfiction all the time. So having those examples, those mentor texts, I think is really helpful.Penny Kittle: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where, you know, in secondary, we have this huge advantage. We have kids for different content areas. And if we could coordinate and say, okay, in science, you're gonna write a lab report. Let me show you some mentor texts for lab reports. In social studies, you're gonna write an argument. Let me show you some mentor texts for arguments. Like, if we could do that, we would be so much more effective. But we don't often do that. We don't often coordinate across content areas.Matt Renwick: Right. So, I have a question about, like, the role of technology in writing. Because I know, you know, we have AI now, and we have all these tools. And I'm curious, like, what's your take on that? Like, how do we teach kids to write in a world where AI can write for them?Penny Kittle: Yeah, I think that's a huge question. And I think that, you know, we have to be honest with kids about the fact that AI exists. And we have to be honest with them about the fact that it can write. But we also have to help them understand that AI can't think for them. AI can't have their ideas. AI can't have their experiences. And so, you know, I think that what we need to do is we need to help kids understand that their voice matters. Their ideas matter. And that's what we're trying to develop. We're trying to develop their voice. We're trying to develop their thinking. And AI can't do that. AI can generate text, but it can't generate their ideas. And so I think that's where we need to focus. We need to focus on helping kids find their voice, find their ideas, and then we can use AI as a tool. But it shouldn't be a replacement for thinking.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I like that distinction. Like, AI can help with the mechanics, but it can't help with the meaning-making.Penny Kittle: Right. Exactly. And I think that's where we need to be. We need to help kids understand that. And we need to help them understand that, you know, the best writing comes from thinking. And AI doesn't think. It generates. And there's a big difference.Matt Renwick: So, thinking about your work, you know, you've been doing this for a long time. You've written several books. You have the Book Love Foundation. What's next for you? Like, what are you working on now?Penny Kittle: Well, I'm working on a few different things. I'm working on a book about leadership with a colleague. And I'm also working on some online courses for teachers. And I'm doing a lot of speaking. So I'm traveling a lot and talking to teachers. And I'm also working on my Substack. So I'm writing there. And I'm just trying to stay connected to teachers and stay connected to the work. Because I think that's really important. I don't want to lose touch with what's happening in classrooms. And so I'm trying to stay as connected as I can.Matt Renwick: That's great. And I think, you know, your Substack has been really helpful. I've been reading it. And I think it's a great way to stay connected to teachers and to share ideas. So, I appreciate that.Penny Kittle: Thanks. Yeah, I think it's been fun. I think it's a good way to just keep the conversation going.Matt Renwick: So, one more question about mentor texts. How do you find them? Like, where do you look for good mentor texts? Because I think sometimes teachers are like, I don't know where to start. Like, how do I find good examples?Penny Kittle: Well, I mean, I think that the first place you look is in what you're reading. So if you're reading, and you come across something that you think is really well-written, you save it. And I have, you know, I have a Google Doc that I've been adding to for years. And it's just a collection of passages that I think are really interesting. And I don't even know if I'll ever use all of them. But I save them. And then when I'm teaching, I go back and I look at that document. And I say, okay, what fits what I'm trying to teach right now? And so I think that's the first place. Just read a lot. And when you come across something that you think is really well-written, save it. And then the other place is just to look at books that are popular with kids. So, you know, what are kids reading? What are they excited about? And then you can pull passages from those books. And that's a great way to get kids interested in reading more. Because you're using books that they're already interested in.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I think that's a great strategy. And I think, too, like, you can also look at, like, articles and essays and things like that. Like, it doesn't have to just be fiction. It can be nonfiction, too.Penny Kittle: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where, you know, I use a lot of articles. I use a lot of essays. I use a lot of different kinds of texts. Because I want kids to see that there are lots of different ways to write. And there are lots of different purposes for writing. And so, yeah, I think that's really important.Matt Renwick: So, in your Google Doc, do you organize it in any particular way? Or is it just kind of a running list?Penny Kittle: It's just a running list. I mean, I should probably organize it better. But it's just a running list. And I copied a bunch of those, because they're very interesting. They're often patterns of language and interesting phrasing that I'm looking for, and I don't even know how many of those I would use if I were teaching right now, but that's where I collect them.Matt Renwick: Yeah, I'm sure they get in your brain, and then they show up somewhere else when you're writing and thinking.Penny Kittle: Right.Matt Renwick: I noticed your awesome library in the background. I was supposed to ask you about your wavy bookshelf, but I don't see it. That must be somewhere else.Penny Kittle: Oh yeah, that's in a different room, and honestly, it's because it was on this wall. My desk was turned this way, and I kept banging it with the back of my head, because it sticks out from the wall like a foot. I was like, I can't do this anymore. So it's gone.Matt Renwick: Oh, darn it.Penny Kittle: Yeah.Matt Renwick: But you had an interesting metaphor, I think in that same post I mentioned before, or just a visual, a library without books. So, to the point you're making was, we don't have writers, we don't have readers, and so making that connection for kids, and stressing the importance of building writers. So, just to kind of close things out, what classroom conditions are essential to help kids write for real, you know, write without rules, Matt De La Pena said in the forward to your book, and then writing for life. What are some essential classroom conditions? So you mentioned before, shared demonstration, that's a Heli-Dion.Penny Kittle: Yeah, yeah, and I think so much about teachers that are in classrooms right now, where they have a scripted curriculum, and I'm really connected to that idea that it demonstrates a lack of trust of teachers, and the idea that I was thinking today, because I was gonna be late to a doctor's appointment, and I was super annoyed with my husband that we were gonna be late, and I was watching every minute to be sure I could get there, and then I thought about the crowd that would be at the front door to the school that was always late. And I thought, what are the conditions that would make kids be like, I can't be late, I gotta get to first period? So, I think that it goes back to those pillars of engagement, right? We talk about this. So there's a science to engagement. We talked about the science of reading, but the science of engagement says that kids will use the skills and strategies we teach with greater persistence and effort when they're engaged. And then they learn more, right? Greater persistence and effort. So for me, it has to be that. So they need to write for real purposes and real audiences, and they need the conditions that say what they have to say matter, right? They need to be in writing groups so that they get more feedback than just mine. They're writing for, you know, and they'll, in a group of 3 or 4 other kids, often they may not want to at the start, but they become kids who share their writing. And when you have to read your writing to someone, or a part of your writing, and ask for help, you hear it differently. Those are essential conditions. We need lots of books, because the more you read, the better you write. That's just a simple formula. Wait, I wrote them down, what else did I put up here? Oh, relationships. So, it's not just the teacher, but the teacher has to have a relationship with reading and writing that is positive, and that knows its power, as well as its challenges, because I think when I first got my secondary credential, what was demonstrated in all my coursework was that I need to become an expert on texts. And that isn't what we need to be expert in. We need to be expert in kids and motivation, and learning how to talk to a kid that doesn't want to talk to you about what they're working on in a way that you can help them. We need to be really superb listeners, and so the conditions are, we have to be able to set up a flow within a class period so that I have time to meet with as many kids as I can, both as readers and as writers, and I need to have us write every day. I'm really into volume, right? We read every day, we write every day, we work on revision almost every day. So that the conditions are a kind of a mutual agreement that we're here to work. They have a playlist for every class, they choose it. Like, the cowboy one was always killing me off, but the boys in this one class, Outdoor Writing, all wanted this, you know, very cowboy-centered playlist, but that stuff helps them feel like it's their space, too. And I think that the teachers who, you know, there are teachers that I worked with every year who volunteered for everything, who were at every dance, and you know, they're just giving 110% to the school and the culture of the school. I love that, but they also have to be that in their classroom, so that their content comes alive and feels meaningful.Matt Renwick: Yeah. Trust the kids, trust themselves, yeah.Penny Kittle: It's so much about trust.Matt Renwick: Yeah. Well, this has been great, Penny. You've got your substack. What is the URL again? Is it...Penny Kittle: You mean my on Substack, I'm just Penny Kittle.Matt Renwick: Penny Kittle, okay.Penny Kittle: Yeah.Matt Renwick: And then you have the Book Love Foundation. Yep. Several resources, which I'll link in the notes.Penny Kittle: I have a YouTube channel that has all my interviews with Kelly Gallagher, and the different authors, and we're putting up... we just released a podcast today called The Moves Leaders Make. It's all about leaders we're interviewing, and those are on Apple, and we actually have about 4 or 5 seasons of Book Love podcasts on there, and there's a lot of places that you can find out more.Matt Renwick: Cool. Well, thanks, Penny, for being here, and good luck with your time, and your time to yourself. So, thank you for being here.Penny Kittle: Thanks so much, Matt.
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