Today’s guest is navigating a tough season, and as a result she is looking forward to a summer of books with heart that won’t be too emotionally draining. Kayla Crum is searching for what she calls light but not fluffy reads, and she’s not exactly sure where to find the types of titles she’s looking for.

Kayla’s an RN and freelance writer living in Grand Haven, Michigan, where she enjoys making the most of her Lake Michigan proximity by spending time outside with her family and reading on the beach when she can fit it into her schedule. When it comes to her summer reading quest, Kayla’s identified a specific type of story that is really working well for her. Today, Kayla is hoping I can help her understand why this specific setting is working so well, because she’d love to discover more books that satisfy in the same way.

I have ideas for Kayla, and I’m sure you do, too: please share your suggestions by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Kayla on Substack and at her podcast website.

[00:00:01] ANNE BOGEL: Are we just looking hotel books or is that one example of what's working for you?

KAYLA CRUM: That's one example. It's sort of a stand-in and a favorite, but I'm happy to have a summering book, people who summer in a different location, a boat book.

ANNE: No, I'm sorry. Why am I laughing? I think I'm laughing because it sounds so delightful.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:50] Readers, early summer is our busy season around here, and we know that's the case for many of you as well. We like to build in intentional breaks to keep up with our TBR piles and everything else in our lives. So we are taking next week off to give our team an early summer breather. We will be back in your podcast players the following week, and in the meantime, we hope you enjoy exploring our archives of over 500 episodes. Visit us at modernmrsdarcy.com/podcast to explore both recent and backlist episodes.

Readers, today's guest is looking forward to a summer of books with heart that won't be too emotionally draining during a season of grief. I'm sure she's not the only one navigating a tough season, and I love this focus on what she calls light but not fluffy reads.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Kayla Crum to the show. Kayla's an RN and freelance writer living in Grand Haven, Michigan, where she enjoys making the most of her Lake Michigan proximity by spending time outside with her family and reading on the beach when she can fit it into her schedule. That sounds like the dream.

[00:01:54] Lately, Kayla's been navigating the grief of losing a loved one, and she's turned to favorite authors and stories to help her through. Kayla would like to add more books like these to her summer reading list, but she's not exactly sure what will scratch that itch.

She knows she's identified a specific type of story that is really working well for her, as you will hear today. Okay, I'll tell you now. Those are hotel books. And Kayla is hoping I can help her understand why this specific setting is working so well because she'd really like to discover more books that satisfy in the same way.

Let's get to it.

Kayla, welcome to the show.

KAYLA: Thank you, Anne. I'm delighted to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. Thanks so much for coming on today. Thanks for sending in your submission with an enticing topic.

KAYLA: Yes, I've sent several over the years. I think I've listened for almost 10 years, so it was so exciting to get the email that I got to come on.

ANNE: I often know this in advance, but I didn't realize that you'd sent in several times. Do you know when your first one was? Because I just searched my inbox and I can tell you.

[00:02:57] KAYLA: I don't know. Would it be like five years ago?

ANNE: Longer. Ooh. It was Sunday, November 17th, 2019.

KAYLA: Oh, wow.

ANNE: At 9:31 PM.

KAYLA: They tend to happen late at night, I think.

ANNE: Any idea what you may have loved and hated?

KAYLA: Oh, gosh. I mean, I think I used to always throw Anne of Green Gables out there as my lifetime favorite.

ANNE: You did.

KAYLA: Yeah.

ANNE: You did.

KAYLA: Yeah, but I don't know the others.

ANNE: They were Chris Cleave's Little Bee.

KAYLA: Oh, yes.

ANNE: And Lori Frankel's This Is How It Always Is.

KAYLA: Mm, good reminders of good books.

ANNE: And the book you wanted to love but just couldn't was...

KAYLA: I have no idea.

ANNE: It was Madeline Miller's The Song of Achilles. You did not like Patroclus.

KAYLA: I just didn't even finish it, which is... I wanted to. I've never tried again since then.

ANNE: Well, Kayla, I'm glad we're finally having this conversation on the show and not in the submissions inbox.

KAYLA: Me too.

[00:03:53] ANNE: Thanks for persisting. Readers, if you want to be on What Should I Read Next? in Kayla's seat, timing is everything. So if you've filled out that submission form before, there is no harm in doing it again. We're always looking for the right themes at the right time and books that we haven't talked about lately or haven't talked about at all, and would love to feature. I mean, would love to by virtue of the fact you're bringing them up mostly, but we're always looking for a wide array.

But Kayla, thanks for coming today. Would you tell us more about yourself than you've listened for a long time and submitted before? We always like to give our listeners a glimpse of who our guests are.

KAYLA: Yes. I'm a lifelong voracious reader. I make my home, born and raised, in Grand Haven, Michigan, which is a little beach town on Lake Michigan. I was a nurse by trade, and I'm still licensed, but left that several years ago to be a freelance writer, communicator, podcaster. I sort of help others communicate their stories, which has been very fulfilling for me. I love reading on the beach or anywhere, eating ice cream. I'm a summer girly, summer birthday. Love to play with my husband, my two-year-old, and our dog. So that's sort of me in a nutshell.

ANNE: Favorite ice cream flavor?

[00:05:10] KAYLA: I mean, I can't argue with a good just plain chocolate, especially if it's homemade by the ice cream shop. But grocery store ice cream, Ben & Jerry's The Tonight Dough is my go-to.

ANNE: That's a Bogel family favorite as well.

KAYLA: So reading-wise, I loved The Chronicles of Narnia as a child, were my home base for reading. I think I read all seven books seven times, and I was very proud of that. I feel like The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was my entrance into reading. It was a read-aloud at school, and then that kind of kickstarted everything for me. I've always been a bit of an opportunistic reader, so anything that's readily available, you know, if it's lying around, my parents had it, my grandparents had it, whatever, Reader's Digest is there, I'm going to read it, even though I was like eight years old.

[00:06:04] ANNE: That sounds so much more inviting and complimentary than compulsive reader, which is what I've always used to describe myself, and others who will read like the back of the cereal box if that's the only reading material nearby.

KAYLA: Yes, like reading the shampoo bottles in the shower. Yes, if words are around, I will probably be reading them.

ANNE: Okay. Opportunistic.

KAYLA: Yes, opportunistic. Definitely, in high school, got into some of the popular fantasy series. Hunger Games was coming out at the time, Harry Potter, the movies were finishing up while I was in high school. So fantasy was big for me as a teenager. And then in college, I was pretty busy with college reading and nursing school things, but my roommates would make fun of me because I'd always have a fiction read going just while I brushed my teeth. So I had to have something going, and I had no time to read it, but I would read about one book per semester just by brushing my teeth and reading. So that was my little escape every day into fiction world, and probably got my teeth cleaner too.

[00:07:07] ANNE: I think so. Kayla, what's your reading like these days?

KAYLA: I became a mom two years ago, and I've shifted more towards audio. I had a big reading renaissance a couple years ago, probably in part due to the pandemic, and then had my daughter in 2024, shifted half and half pretty much to audio and physical or Kindle. I always have something going on audio, something going with my eyes.

I have recently been in a season of grief. My sister lost her husband to cancer in February, and have been reading as an escape. So leaning hard on Elin Hilderbrand, other beach-type reads, but also just really moving character-driven novels with heart that kind of meet me where I'm at emotionally, but don't devastate me. I feel like that's sometimes a tricky line to walk. But yeah, reading is definitely an escape for me from various things.

[00:08:12] I specifically saw your post recently about hotel books, and I love a hotel book. Many of my favorites are set in a hotel. I think way back to Eloise at the Plaza as a child, and this has been a favorite setting for me over the years. And so I wanted to talk to you about that today.

ANNE: Ooh, we can definitely do that. And we will explore more... or maybe we can do this now. First, I'm so sorry for your loss.

KAYLA: Aw, thank you.

ANNE: I know many readers, including myself, resonate with the idea of turning to books to escape into another world. But also I hear... so character driven novels with heart. I don't know, I think what's standing out to me is escape, but not avoidance.

KAYLA: I like that characterization, yes. And maybe something about a hotel book is even that hotels by nature are temporary, right? With few exceptions. It's like a temporary break from real life, and that's what I'm looking for in a book, too. I'm not looking to move to Alaska or you know, wherever.

[00:09:26] ANNE: Oh, so maybe hotel books are a nice place to escape to.

KAYLA: Yes, and in a temporary way, and then you know that they're going back to their real lives and I'm going back to my real life.

ANNE: But what if they're not, because the book is set in a hotel, but it's more about the staff than the guests? How do we feel about that?

KAYLA: I do like those, too. I recently read The Hotel Nantucket by Elin Hildebrand, and I felt like that focused mostly on the staff. I do love when the staff and the guests are characters, and you kind of get a peek into both.

ANNE: I'm trying to articulate, like envisioning my mental cobbled-together vision of The Hotel Nantucket lobby. But I'm imagining how even though the staff is somewhat, you know, it's semi-permanent, the hotel is still built around the idea of people coming and going, like of impermanence.

KAYLA: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. So it's a holding place?

[00:10:28] KAYLA: Yeah. I'm trying to scratch out what it is I like about hotel books because a setting, I guess, is what it would be, because hotel books can spread genres, mysteries, and otherwise. But I do like when the hotel... I want to picture it in my head. I've read a few where you think you're getting a hotel book, but it's really more of just background. And I really do like when I feel like I could walk in in my head and picture everything, and it's almost a character in itself. I like the idea of nooks and crannies, and all the secrets of all the people that have stayed there. You know, it's just kind of whimsical and magical to me.

ANNE: You mentioned something about the idea of a book being set in Alaska.

KAYLA: Mm, yeah.

ANNE: How do you feel about a book being set in Alaska versus a book being set in a hotel? I'm just thinking there's the vastness of the one place and the minuteness, relatively speaking, of the other.

[00:11:26] KAYLA: I think Alaska appeals because of its remoteness and uniqueness. I've found that I also am drawn to island books, English manor houses, or on a boat. Like these closed sets, so to speak, to use a movie term. Like a locked-room mystery. I like something about there's like a container holding all of these various people in some way. And a hotel is just my favorite form of that. But I also like, you know, you're not getting to Alaska by accident. Does that make sense?

ANNE: It does, I think. Well, sometimes the truth emerges in contrast, thus bringing Alaska into it, but we'll set Alaska aside for now. That's a different conversation for a different episode. I wonder if there's something about the way a hotel setting is like the world made small.

[00:12:23] KAYLA: That sounds right to me. I like how people rub shoulders with people they might not meet on the street back home, right? Like it brings in various versions of people. I think I like the idea of play-acting a little bit. It's fun even if, like, I were to go on vacation, you're like, "I could be anyone. I could have made 1,000 different life choices." And just to kind of imagine a different life, or what if I lived here? And yeah, just seeing the possibilities, like you said, writ small within a hotel. It does feel like a world within the world.

ANNE: I'm playing with an idea of like you already have the solution, you have everything you need. Everything and everyone that is needed for the story is there or will come to you. I wonder if that's pinging anything for you.

[00:13:16] KAYLA: Yeah, like almost the opposite of a vast wilderness. Like the opposite of Frodo's journey in The Lord of the Rings where you have to trek forever and find everything. It's like everything's here and contained, and we almost just have to look among us or within us. I did like living in an apartment back in the day. I felt cozy, like nestled among the other families and lives. I think that's part of it, too, the communal living aspect.

ANNE: Or in another genre we might call that forced proximity and the interesting things that may happen as a result.

KAYLA: Right, like how the hotel brings together characters that you might not find side by side in another scenario.

ANNE: Yeah. Okay. And then in the blog post you're referring to that was written by our team member Ginger, she said that, sure, she's intrigued by what is sometimes a glamorous setting or sometimes the cozy one if we're talking about a little inn. But also there's the question of, like, what are the characters doing? Are they with a group? Are they alone? Are they a couple? Are they running to something? Are they running away from something?

[00:14:27] Hotels are where people go on purpose to make memories or to disappear or to get a needed escape or at times of transition. There's a lot of potential for drama there. But drama is actually not what I'm hearing draws you.

KAYLA: I do like the appeal of the glamour a little bit, and sometimes drama, but it doesn't have to have drama. I think I like to sprinkle more drama, glamour, rich people behaving badly. I do enjoy a book like that, but I need to mix it up with more inner heart-driven stories as well. And you can find both with hotel settings, it's just trickier sometimes.

ANNE: You can. All right, so it sounds of these, the idea that you've got a whole world that you can hold between your hands is a big part of the appeal.

KAYLA: I think so.

ANNE: And it gives your brain like someplace very concrete to visit.

[00:15:29] KAYLA: Yes. I mentioned reading Narnia as a child, and obviously that's a vast land, but I think that's similar. Or Anne of Green Gables is another childhood favorite. She lived on Prince Edward Island. Like, you go to these places, or with Ellen Hilderbrand, it's Nantucket, it's like, now I'm transporting to this specific place that's going to hold the whole story. I like that.

ANNE: Well, there's some great hotel scenes in the Anne of Green Gables books. I'm thinking of her and Diane wanting to eat chicken salad at the White Sands Hotel.

KAYLA: Oh, so true.

ANNE: Or they go eat dinner with Aunt... Is it Josephine?

KAYLA: Josephine.

ANNE: It might be tea in Charlottetown.

KAYLA: Yes. Yes. And it's such luxury to the little girls who are used to country life.

ANNE: It's a whole different life. All right. Well, we'll see where we can take you away to in the pages. Are we just looking hotel books, or is that one example of what's working for you?

KAYLA: That's one example. It's sort of a stand-in and a favorite, but I'm happy to have a summering book, people who summer in a different location, a boat book.

[00:16:28] ANNE: No, I'm sorry. Why am I laughing? I think I'm laughing because it sounds so delightful. Summer as a verb always makes me giggle a little bit.

KAYLA: That also feels like something wealthier folks do, like, "I'm going to go summer on the coast." I like a book like that, or really any sort of, yeah, I'm traveling to X location type of book.

ANNE: Okay. Now, some of these books are very warm, and some are snarky, and some are murdery, but I guess you already told us, character-driven novels with heart.

KAYLA: Yeah. Any of those things are welcome, but I do need character development as a primary tenet of the book.

ANNE: Okay, Kayla, what kind of genres do you find do and don't work for you? Or maybe it's more helpful to say they feel hospitable to you right now.

KAYLA: It's funny I grew up loving fantasy, but have not found any five-star fantasies for myself as an adult. So I'm not completely opposed, but that's just not typically what I read anymore. I love family dramas, historical fiction, classics, book club picks. That's kind of my usual.

[00:17:41] I do like murder mystery, think like Louise Penny or The Thursday Murder Club, so not gruesome, but not... I hesitate to use the word "cozy". I think cozy mystery has a bit of a nebulous definition.

ANNE: You said in your submission you were fantasy-curious. Does that apply today when we're talking?

KAYLA: Yes, although with the hotel theme, I'm not sure that that is an overlap we could find, but if anyone could do it, you could, so we'll see.

ANNE: Oh, were that only true, but I may have an idea or two. Kayla, this is important information about your reading life. Can we pile on more by talking about the books you love and don't?

KAYLA: Yes.

ANNE: You know how this works. You've brought three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately to the show, and I'd love to hear how they connect to what's working for you and what you're looking for right now. How did you choose these?

[00:18:40] KAYLA: I'd been thinking about books that, like I mentioned, were character-driven, had heart, and were sort of cathartic or moving, but didn't bring me low during this season of grief. And that's a tricky path to walk, maybe even bringing me to tears, but not in a devastating way. So these three books, and after I chose them, I realized they all have a female protagonist who could be considered somewhat unlikable, but you really peel back who she is at her core and why she ended up the way she is. That's sort of a theme I didn't even realize until I put them all down here. But they all-

ANNE: Wow. Okay, I love that.

KAYLA: They all scratch that itch of the character developing over time and feeling the emotions without being left in a desolate place, if that makes sense.

[00:19:41] ANNE: Yes. Okay, if I asked you to put me together a list like that, I think that would be impossible to do. But look, you did it accidentally.

KAYLA: I did.

ANNE: All right. Well, what do you have? What's book one that you love, if not already strongly implied?

KAYLA: The first book I loved was The Ice Cream Queen of Orchard Street by Susan Jane Gilman. First of all, any long title like that is going to draw me in, especially if you reference a street, like The Vanderbeekers of 141st Street as a middle-grade novel, or even just a name like The Penderwicks, just thinking back to my childhood. So the name alone caught my eye in the used bookstore, The Ice Cream Queen of Orchard Street.

And this is a book about a young immigrant girl who moves to America with her family in the early 1900s, ends up taken in by another family when hers passes away, and rises to be this super powerful ice cream magnate. And it sort of has a Forrest Gump feel in that you get to walk through the essential points of American history through the 1900s, but with the lens of this woman's life.

[00:20:48] We flash back and forth from modern day when she's elderly and undergoing a difficult lawsuit for her ice cream company, and then kind of going back to like, "Well, here's how I got here and here's why, you know, I shouldn't be sued for this." It's an interesting setup, and it's long. These days with my toddler, I don't know that I would've picked up a 500-page book, but I really enjoyed it a couple years ago. And it's primarily set in New York City, which is also a fun place I like to read.

ANNE: And in 1913, I think, which is a good ways back, how big a role does historical fiction play in your reading life these days? I'm just curious about, as far as places to escape go, how do you feel about the past?

KAYLA: I do love history. I was a big American Girl doll reader and enjoyer. I'm not opposed to it. I don't think I've been leaning on it much lately because, like beach reads, at least the ones I've been exposed to, and with the splashy beach covers that I've been reaching for, don't seem to have as much historical fiction among them as, you know, modern. But I'm not opposed to it.

[00:22:02] ANNE: Good to know. Kayla, what's the second book you love?

KAYLA: Same As It Ever Was by Claire Lombardo. This is really cheating because I could have put either of Claire Lombardo's books here. They're just so stunning. The way she writes about human relationships and emotions is just unparalleled. She really makes you feel for each character's position, particularly in this case the protagonist, Julia, who we kind of flash back and forth between her difficult season as a young mother when she's questioning her marriage, questioning every choice she's made to get her where she is now, and then we flash forward.

And so it's not a spoiler to say, like, you know she's still with her husband, she's still with her family, she's got this job. So you're like, "Okay, she was so unsure here, and yet she's settled here." So the book kind of draws you in that gap, helps you move from that difficult season of young motherhood to when she's sending her young adults off into the world.

[00:23:10] I just think Claire Lombardo is a master of peeling back the layers of why we do certain things, and why sometimes the people we're closest to are also strangers to us, and we might feel more comfortable divulging things to others. The knots we tie ourselves in as families and friends, she untangles all that so masterfully.

ANNE: I see what you mean. And what I'm really thinking about is where the space is for you between tears that feel cathartic and ones that feel devastating.

KAYLA: So, Claire's other novel, I think it's called The Most Fun We Ever Had, is actually about a group of sisters, one of whom lost a husband to cancer. So that's very relevant to me. I really liked actually how she wrote into that tension of, like, there's a sister with a normal life and happy children, and then a sister with this loss who's a widow. I thought she did a very real raw, but gentle at the same time, examination of the tensions in that relationship.

[00:24:23] So weirdly, even if it's right on the nose for me with that, I think I'd be okay with that. When I say "not devastating", I've noticed since I had my daughter, I don't want to hear about children being kidnapped or abused. Child abuse, not for me. I did love Florence Knapp's The Names, but I read that a while ago. I don't think right now I could handle those descriptions of domestic abuse. Does that help delineate it a little bit?

ANNE: Yes. Hard things happen in this world is okay.

KAYLA: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: The world is a terrible, hard place, and then it gets harder, and then we die, not okay.

KAYLA: Right. And specifically if there's, I think, a perpetrator, I don't know why this is coming to me right now, but I'm thinking of Florence's book, and yeah, like someone in your life who's just ruining everything and it just goes on and on. Yeah, not really here for that right now.

ANNE: When the person is the object of fear in like that very clear, purposeful way?

[00:25:28] KAYLA: I think I like to believe the best of everyone. And talking about these character-driven books, I like to see, you know, we all have our flaws, and yet we have this deep-rooted goodness. So when there's a character who's just not that at all, I struggle with that.

ANNE: Okay, so a book in which the author's worldview incorporates the idea that there is good in people and not we're all destined to devastate each other willfully because we hurt each other despite our best intentions, not because of our worst.

KAYLA: Yes, that's a good way to put it.

ANNE: Okay. We're gathering so much info. Kayla, what is your third favorite book?

KAYLA: The third book I brought is The Correspondent by Virginia Evans, so me and half the world. I saw this book everywhere. My mom read it in her book club and passed it along to me. I just think the biggest praise I can give it is that I was supposed to leave on a trip to Florida, and I had a little bit left in the book, and I was like, "I'll just sit at the kitchen counter and have a quick snack." It's like 10:00 at night and I haven't packed, and I just sat there and finished the whole book and was weeping, but in the best way.

[00:26:44] I just found Sybil, the protagonist, so... Endearing feels like too sweet of a word, but again, it's like a slightly unlikable or complex main character. But we get to peel back the layers of her relationships with various people in her life and the choices she's made along the way, and kind of see the why behind it. I thought that book scratched at how bad things can happen to any of us, and sometimes we are partly or mostly at fault, and that that is just life and how... It really examined the idea of holding yourself tenderly and trying for forgiveness and holding others the same way.

And it was, for anyone who doesn't know, written in an epistolary format with letters back and forth, which I do enjoy. And I think that too was just a fresh take and helped us take a look at Sybil in a new way. Like, we could kind of gather different clues from who she was talking to about different aspects of her character in a way that just like a first-person narrative or even a third-person narrative couldn't jump around and do.

[00:27:59] ANNE: Okay, so those are the books you loved. What didn't work for you? And please do tell us why.

KAYLA: I read Havoc by Christopher Bollen. That was a hotel book, which was why I picked it up. I will say I loved the hotel setting, the staff, our characters, the main character, who I am forgetting her name, but she... Another elderly woman, just like The Correspondent and The Ice Cream Queen of Orchard Street. So this is becoming a theme.

She's a guest at the hotel. You sense early on that she's perhaps an unreliable narrator, and I'm not opposed to that, but I won't say it's my favorite. So that was maybe the first red flag that it wasn't for me. The ending is what really ruined this book for me, and I don't want to ruin it for the listeners. But when you get to the end, and I had the feeling of like, it was all for nothing. I don't know. I don't need a happy ending, but I need an ending with some heart and hope, and this one did not have that. So it did not work for me.

[00:29:06] But it was a hotel in Egypt, and there was a fun little boy character, and this main elderly woman, and I wanted to like it so much, but the ending just... I couldn't.

ANNE: Kayla, what have you been reading lately?

KAYLA: I recently read The Hotel Nantucket by Elin Hilderbrand. I've been leaning on Hilderbrand books right now as an escape. So loved the setting of Nantucket and the hotel itself. This one is unique in the Hilderbrand canon because it has a ghost. I don't mind some light, friendly ghost. I'm not here for the scary things, but a little magical realism or like, oh, there's something a little supernatural in addition to the main plot is good with me. And loved how we were rooting for this new hotel to make it another year, and that the staff and the guests were sort of working together on that.

Also like half the world have been listening to The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lion. So that's been a fun escape as well this summer. The narration is just so great.

[00:30:09] I'm almost done with Heartwood by Amity Gaige, which is thrilling for sure. It's a woman lost in the Maine woods, and you rotate between three different women's perspectives. I actually was loaned it by a friend back in the immediacy of my family member dying, and I was like, "Oh, I can't read this right now." Like, somebody lost in the woods and possibly dying is not for me.

But again, we're the opportunistic reader. Here it was laying around when I finished my last book, and so I picked it up, and it has been fun to have a book that has me like, "I have to keep reading," and I'm like staying up past my bedtime reading. So I'm almost done with that one. And that's been an escape of a different kind, you know, kind of keeping me turning the pages.

ANNE: Okay. So let's recap, if that's okay.

KAYLA: Yeah.

[00:31:04] ANNE: All right. Kayla, you loved The Ice Cream Queen of Orchard Street by Susan Jane Gilman, Same As It Ever Was by Claire Lombardo, and The Correspondent by Virginia Evans. The book that wasn't for you was Havoc by Christopher Bollen because you need an ending with heart and hope, and that wasn't it. Lately, you've been reading Elin Hilderbrand's The Hotel Nantucket, Amity Gaige's Heartwood, and Beth Brower's The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lion. And there are a whole bunch of volumes of those that could keep you busy. How do you feel about having a series on deck like that?

KAYLA: That's been fun because it takes the work out of what you're going to read next, right? So just been queuing them up on my Hoopla app, and that's been a nice accompaniment to my chores.

ANNE: Okay. Glad to hear it. Kayla, is there anything else you want to put on the table as we think about what you may enjoy reading next?

KAYLA: I don't think so. We covered a lot of ground.

[00:32:01] ANNE: Kayla, I have ideas, and I definitely have emotional tone in mind, but my goal here is to give you the information you need to decide: is that a reading experience I want and that I'm ready for right now?

KAYLA: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay, let's start with a fantasy book set at a little inn that I feel like I've talked about all the time on What Should I Read Next?. So maybe you've read it or maybe you've already decided it's not for you. But I'm thinking of Sangu Mandanna's A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping that came out last summer. Is this a book you know?

KAYLA: Now that you say the title, I think I've heard you mention it, but I don't remember anything about it.

ANNE: This is a fantasy novel that has a strong romance element. It's very grounded fantasy that features a found family. It does have that romance. It has strong platonic relationships, and it just has lots of cozy vibes.

[00:32:57] This book is about a witch named Sarah, who many years ago lost her magic because she cast a forbidden spell. And she has no regrets because she cast the spell to save the life of a cherished family member. She would do it again in a heartbeat, but it still stinks. And something I thought was so fun and charming about this story is it stinks for very practical reasons. Her great aunt that she saved runs this adorable welcoming inn that has serious Three Pines vibes.

KAYLA: Love that.

ANNE: There's a spell cast on the inn, and people who find the inn need the inn. And if you don't need the inn, you will not be able to find your way to it. And that sounds a lot like Louise Penny, which I enjoyed. But they're running this old inn together, and this inn has seen better days.

[00:33:55] And if Sarah could just use her magic to fix the boiler, it would relieve all the money stress they've been feeling. Because you could wallpaper that room, or you could just wave your wand. And it's much easier to wave your wand, but that option is not available to her right now.

So the inn is just super charming because I think in my head like it's just beautifully, charmingly, imperfectly, perfectly decorated. And you just want to cozy up in the corner of every room you're seeing in your mind's eye with a book. But there's also an enchantment that's been placed on it long ago.

Sarah cast a spell before she lost her magic. And the spell is whimsical and mischievous. Like, if there are empty teacups sitting around, then wildflowers are going to be blooming in them. Doors open and close, not in a menacing way, but just like, "Oh, hi, hello," kinda way.

[00:34:46] In one of the guest bedrooms, it rains apple blossom tea for an hour every Sunday, and then it stops, and nothing is a mess. But then several things happen at once. Sarah, for reasons, decides she has to get her magic back. And then also at the same time, the inn's spell draws in this gruff and also extremely good-looking magical historian to the inn, along with his little sister, who happens to be autistic, and she takes to the place immediately and never wants to leave. And the gruff, magical historian who's very, very good-looking is going to feature prominently in the plot.

This little group of strangers becomes extremely tight and they decide, "You know what? Together we can take on the big, bad, mean, magical dudes and cast this impossible spell and get your magic back." I don't know. How's that sounding?

[00:35:44] KAYLA: That sounds delightful, very cozy. I don't have time to learn an entire world, but I can learn an inn. You know what I mean? Like the world-building. So that sounds lovely.

ANNE: That sounds good. Okay, it's not a ghost story, but I'm just thinking about the way that characters' past pains and traumas surface in the plot. And it does have a little bit of a ghostly element, but people have been through hard stuff in this book, and that does definitely surface on the page. Based on what you've said, I think the pervasive tone is "this is hard, but your friends have you. Like, your loved ones have you, and this house has your back." I think that could be really important for you to know as you think about if this is a right book at the right time for you.

KAYLA: Yeah, that's a good note to know.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. Can we talk about a book that I don't know at all is perfect for you, but I still really want you to know about?

KAYLA: Yes.

[00:36:45] ANNE: This is a hotel book that's set on a thinly veiled version of Mackinac Island.

KAYLA: Ooh.

ANNE: And listeners, Kayla was kind enough to give me some Michigan recommendations before we got started, so at least maybe I can give you a Michigan book in exchange.

KAYLA: Yes, I would love that.

ANNE: Okay. This is new. It comes out in July 2026, so not quite yet, but very, very soon, and it's a debut family drama by Ryan Effgen called Make Nice. The tone is light, whimsical, but I'm wondering if this is right for you, because it's a little edgier than I think some readers are going to expect based on what this book sounds like.

[00:37:32] So at its heart, this is a story of three siblings who have been called back to... It's not actually Mackinac Island, but it's so thinly veiled that it was only in going back after I read it and reading the author's description again as I thought about Summer Reading Guide potential coverage. It's not in there, by the way, but I thought really hard about it, that I realized, wait, it's not actually Mackinac Island. It just sounds exactly like everything I've ever heard and read about Mackinac Island. And I'm definitely picturing the Grand Hotel that is one of the iconic images. There's no cars on the island. There's buggies. There's ice cream stands galore, gorgeous seaside, nostalgic parades, that kind of thing.

So in this book, Make Nice, it's about three adult siblings who reconvene at their father's request at the Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island for one last time. They have come to this place together their entire lives, usually with their mom, but their mom recently died. And Kayla, I do not remember how. That is backstory, not present tense in the plot.

[00:38:40] But each sibling wants to impress the others and show them how they are doing so great, everything is working, they're living their best life, but they do have these old rivalries and sore spots as siblings often do, and they end up upsetting each other and really getting into it, their history and their present together on the island.

The siblings are really fun to read about. There's three of them, two men and one woman. Corey is the family ne'er-do-well who has stolen a five pound block of cocaine that he has brought with him by Greyhound bus to Michigan, and he's thinking, "I'm going to sell this and make a bunch of money and solve my problems."

Then we have daughter Viv, who is dealing with a marital breakdown, but doesn't really want her siblings to know it because she's afraid they'll be like, "Hello, we told you so. We've been telling you for years."

And then we have Pete, who is a super nerdy snail scientist who has never quite fit in in his life. He works at a university. He's obsessed with these snails. But Pete's story made the novel for me, and I still have open tabs on my phone about Carthusian snails and Carrera marble in the Michigan shoreline thanks to his story, which I just loved. He really is living his best life on this Michigan island.

[00:40:10] There's a teenager who belongs to Viv, who's also in the mix and also the patriarch of the family. But this family has a lot of history, and it all comes to the surface in these intervening plots at the Grand Hotel. And I wonder if this is a book that is a little fun for the hijinks, but I wonder if the setting could make this especially interesting to you. I don't know. Are you interested in this at all?

KAYLA: This sounds right up my alley. I love the Michigan piece, but I also love a sibling story. I remember reading The Nest by Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney kind of about siblings going at it a little bit. Also, as to the snarkiness or dark humor, I really enjoyed The Wedding People at that hotel on the East Coast. So I feel like what you're describing sounds just right.

[00:41:05] ANNE: I think lovable mess applies to so many of these characters. And if you enjoyed The Nest, this one is a little bit gentler. I was worried this might be a little too bristly for you. But if you enjoyed The Nest, I think you're okay. I mean, this really is a book... A sibling story is a plus, but this is location, location, location.

KAYLA: Love that.

ANNE: All right. Well, that is Make Nice by Ryan Effgen. And then if you haven't read any Kevin Kwan, you get a whole bunch of hotels in your 320 pages or whatever it is. Have you read Lies and Weddings?

KAYLA: No. He wrote Crazy Rich Asians, right?

ANNE: He did. Another good hotel story.

KAYLA: Yeah, I read that one, but not Lies and Weddings.

ANNE: Okay. This came out a couple summers ago. It was in the Summer Reading Guide then. And Lies and Weddings is a comedy of manners that is actually, I was surprised to discover, a retelling of Anthony Trollope's Dr. Thorne. But you can forget I told you that. And you don't have to know a thing about Dr. Thorne. I mean, I think some readers will be like, "I miss my English literature seminar days. I'm going to read them both side by side." But you don't need to know a thing about Trollope.

[00:42:14] This is a plot-driven book. It's not so much about character development in that everyone is larger than life in their lifestyle and a little bit in their personality, but the two main characters are not without their struggles and subsequent growth. But this is about a not exactly a single man in want of a wife, but a single man whose mother very much wants him to find a wife.

He is the Viscount St. Ives, who is known internationally as Viscount St. Abs after a photo of him ironing shirtless went viral. And he is not at all concerned with his believed to be obscenely wealthy family's money problems, because he would prefer to happily live out his days surfing in Hawaii. But his mother doesn't want the well to dry up, so she needs him to marry. She needs him to marry up and quickly. And of course, that's not what he wants to do. He doesn't want to marry at all, and well, there are the seeds of an old-fashioned marriage plot in that little setup.

[00:43:22] But what's so fun about this book is you get to follow him and his cronies around the world. And I so enjoy googling all the... I mean, all the locations of these luxury hotels that you can look up on maps and browse through the pictures of the lobby. And Kevin Kwan describes them with all the details, and sets things like wedding receptions and cocktail parties, and just waiting for your pals in the lobby, and it's so much fun. And they do ridiculous and expensive things like go on group hot air balloon rides, and visit these jaw-droppingly beautiful botanical gardens in Morocco. That browser might still be open on my phone from two years ago. I probably shouldn't tell anybody that.

But the food, the clothes, the wines, that you could google and be like, "Oh, that's $600 a bottle, huh?" The specific glitzy intersections where things take place, the cars they collect, the watches, the handbags, the other luxury goods. In that sense, I think Kevin Kwan and Elin Hilderbrand are very similar in that they both add a lot of texture to their stories by letting a lot of the physical settings and material goods do a lot of the lift on characterization for their people.

[00:44:33] This has a vibe not unlike The Guncle Abroad, if we have any Steven Rowley fans listening, Kayla, if you're one of them. But this is just frothy and fizzy and escapist, but not without its substance. And it does have that classical anchor here. How does that sound?

KAYLA: That sounds fun. Yeah, I read The Guncle, but not The Guncle Abroad, so that's kind of a two-for-one. I should read both that and this one. This sounds like a fun escape.

ANNE: All right, I'm glad to hear it. Kayla, for our next book, I wonder how a Vermont inn sounds to you as a setting.

KAYLA: Yes, that sounds nice.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read any Elinor Lipman? I'm thinking about The Inn at Lake Devine.

KAYLA: The name Elinor Lipman is ringing a bell, but I can't think of what I might have read by her.

ANNE: Okay. She's been writing since the '90s, and is prolific, with a book coming out every couple of years.

KAYLA: Wow.

[00:45:23] ANNE: So this one is, oh gosh, late '90s, early 2000s. And this is a love story and a family story that's grounded very much in the real world. This is a first-person tale narrated by a woman named Natalie Marks. And this story talks about hard things, as it's a story about two couples who are of different religious faith backgrounds, whose parents are really unhappy when they get together. But the tone throughout is one of, "We're going to work it out. It is going to be okay." I feel like the reader feels really supported through the whole story.

But Natalie's family was in Massachusetts, and every year they summered, the verb, either by the lake or by the beach. And one summer they sought out this place called The Inn at Lake Devine in Vermont, and got a letter back from the proprietor that said, "We don't take people like you because our guests are all Gentiles." And this happened to Natalie's mom, not our narrator, Natalie. But when Natalie was young and she watched this happen, she was angry, but she was also very curious, and she had a contrarian streak in her, and she grew up thinking, "Well, wouldn't it be fun to infiltrate this place?"

[00:46:53] So in her teens, she figured out a way to spend a summer at the inn. And then when she grew up and trained to be a chef, she gets invited along to a wedding at the inn, to a society kind of wedding. So Natalie goes, and she cooks, and when she falls in love with someone there at the inn, neither of the parents are happy.

But this is a comic novel, and they are going to work it out. And I wonder if you may not enjoy just the story of people working through differences in a way that hopefully feels authentic but also safe. But also just the details that we see from all sides of life at the inn. But we get to see the perspective of her being a teenager, and then an adult, and then a special guest, as she's in a wedding party, and then she's a chef at the inn as well. And I wonder if all those perspectives will be a nice, well-rounded hotel story, and some for you.

[00:48:00] KAYLA: Yeah, I love the through-the-lifetime approach. That reminds me of The Ice Cream Queen that we talked about, and Same As It Ever Was. So, yeah, that sounds really fun.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. And I kind of want to give you a sad one that might be too sad, but it might also be really good. So are you comfortable with wielding the power of making the call, but hearing about a sad book?

KAYLA: Yeah, I can always tuck it away for later, too.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read any Mary Lawson?

KAYLA: No.

ANNE: Okay. She is a Canadian author who was shortlisted for the Booker for, let's see, maybe in the past five years. It's called A Town Called Solace. Her debut was Crow Lake, that Will Bogel has talked about a lot in these parts. And I know we've talked about Solace and Crow Lake on the podcast.

[00:48:52] Road Ends is coming to mind because it's a recent one I read, and I did not expect it to be a hotel book, but I loved that storyline so much. For readers who know Lawson or Crow Lake, this book is set in that same story world, and there's a slight overlap of characters, but you do not need to read one with the other.

So, like all of Lawson's novels, this is set in northern Ontario, and there's a little town called Struan that is far north and remote. And this story starts in that small community in the 1960s. This is a novel about a large family in a hard place. And we mostly hear from the two eldest children, who are like 21 and 23 when the novel begins. But to zoom out a little, their parents are married unhappily. They never meant to get married. At least the father never meant to marry the mother, but because of World War II, that's what happened.

[00:49:54] The mother keeps having babies because she loves and dotes on her infants. But once they exit infanthood... Is that a word, Kayla, infanthood?

KAYLA: Infancy.

ANNE: Once they exit infancy and move on, once they can walk and talk, she is uninterested. It's like they don't exist. She is mentally unwell, but none of the family members can quite put a name to it. And the firstborn daughter, secondborn child, Megan, has been keeping the wheels on the wagon for a long time. She has been parentified since about the age of six. She has been running the household.

And when the story opens, she is about done. And exacerbating her sense of doneness is that her elder brother, Tom, who could ostensibly help her, is dealing with his own crisis because his best friend died under circumstances that are still haunting him not that long before. And Tom had this promising career in naval aviation. He was going to go to Seattle and work for Boeing, but he is stuck, and he's okay with that for right now.

[00:50:59] And the family is at this crisis point. Like, somebody has to step in and do something, because the mother's having another baby, and they cannot keep this going the way things are. Oh, and the father's just absent. He's just denial and avoidance. But that's not the tone of the whole book. But that is the situation.

At the beginning of the story, Megan gets an opportunity to leave for London to visit a friend, and she's like I don't have to tell my parents how half-baked this plan really is. I just gotta get out of here. And she leaves, and what we see in the rest of the story is split narratives of Megan trying to make her way in London, and gosh, it is terrifying at first, because she does not have a plan when she leaves. And it's the '60s. It's not like she can call up her friend on the cell and be like, "Hey, where are you? Help me. Let me in out of the rain so I can start my British life." And then we're back in this small town, Ontario, where this family is struggling.

[00:51:57] And I think the things that are hardest in this story is they aren't just struggling emotionally, they are struggling physically, and there's a four-year-old child whose mother has forgotten about him because he's not a baby anymore. He can walk and talk, but he's being neglected, Like basic things. Like he's wetting the bed and nobody's cleaning it up. He doesn't have any clothes. He hasn't had a bath in weeks, like that kind of stuff. And it's hard.

But what I didn't expect about this story, because people having a hard time and Mary Lawson was not surprising to me. She often puts her characters through it, and I've read enough of her books now to trust she will bring me back to a place that feels redemptive, where maybe it's not great, but it is okay, and I can see it's getting better.

But Megan ends up through... Well, through a little bit of stick-to-it-iveness, but a lot of sheer luck. She ends up falling in with a couple who are passionate about renovating old homes into hotels, and they have taste and style and vision, and she throws herself into the work with them.

[00:53:05] And I wonder if that perspective of building a boutique British hotel from... Not building it, I mean, the building is there, but creating it out of shambles into a classy place with a swanky bar and lots of cachet and travelers from all over the world. I wonder if that would be an interesting and appealing angle to you.

More happens in this book, but the combo of family drama, serious character development over time and across vast spaces, and also that really interesting and unexpected hotel angle will add up to something special for you. How does that sound?

KAYLA: I'm liking the hotel angle, and I normally love a messy family story. The neglect piece is sort of hitting me a little wrong right now, but I'll definitely tuck this title away for maybe when I'm in a better place.

ANNE: That sounds like a good place to put it. All right, Kayla, we're going to stop there. How is all this sounding to you? How are you feeling about looking forward in your reading life?

[00:54:19] KAYLA: This is exciting. I knew you could do it, but I was afraid you would throw out hotel titles I'd already heard of, so I'm excited that there's so many out there, and I also feel you've helped me scratch at or broaden my net for finding these hotel-adjacent stories.

ANNE: Oh. Okay, I'm thrilled to hear it. Now, of the ones we talked about today, I'm so curious to hear what you may read next. We've got A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping by Sangu Mandanna, Make Nice by Ryan Effgen, not out yet, but very, very soon, Lies and Weddings by Kevin Kwan, The Inn at Lake Divine by Elinor Lipman, and that last one, Road Ends by Mary Lawson. Kayla, what do you think?

KAYLA: I feel most drawn to Make Nice, but since that won't come out till July, I think I'll start with, is it The Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping? Did I get the title right?

ANNE: Yes, you did.

KAYLA: That sounds cozy. I'm excited.

[00:55:21] ANNE: All right. I'm glad to hear it. Kayla, this has been a pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books with me.

KAYLA: Thank you.

ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kayla, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Kayla on Substack. We have all her links, as well as the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Make sure you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, wherever you get your podcasts. When you follow or subscribe to our show, that means you'll never miss a new episode. It also helps us out a lot.

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[00:56:16] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Anne of Green Gables by L. M. Montgomery
• Little Bee by Chris Cleave
• This is How it Always Is by Laurie Frankel
• The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller
• The Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis
• The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins
• Eloise at the Plaza by Kay Thompson
• The Hotel Nantucket by Elin Hilderbrand
The Ice Cream Queen of Orchard Street by Susan Jane Gilman
• The Vanderbeekers of 141st Street by Karina Yan Glaser
• The Penderwicks by Jeanne Birdsall
Same As It Ever Was by Claire Lombardo
• The Most Fun We Ever Had by Claire Lombardo
• The Names by Florence Knapp
The Correspondent by Virginia Evans
▵ Havoc by Christopher Bollen
• The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lion by Beth Brower (Audio edition)
• Heartwood by Amity Gaige
• A Witch’s Guide to Magical Innkeeping by Sangu Mandanna
• Make Nice by Ryan Effgen
• The Nest by Cynthia D’Aprix Sweeney
• The Wedding People by Alison Espach
• Lies and Weddings by Kevin Kwan
• Crazy Rich Asians by Kevin Kwan
• The Guncle by Steven Rowley
• The Guncle Abroad by Steven Rowley
• The Inn at Lake Devine by Elinor Lipman
• Road Ends by Mary Lawson
• Crow Lake by Mary Lawson
• A Town Called Solace by Mary Lawson

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• 10 books set in hotels
• Please support our sponsors.

The post Seeking light but not fluffy summer reads for a good escape appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Readers, today I’m excited to dive into the world of summer reading with Kristina Forest, contemporary romance writer and author of the 2026 MMD Summer Reading Guide title, The Summer Girlfriend.

I described it in the guide as a sweet summer romance bursting with bookishness and baked goods. The beach setting was inspired by a handful of real places, some of which surprised me, along with Kristina’s deep and abiding love for the Jersey Shore. We are going to get into all of it today, along with some of Kristina’s very favorite titles for beach reading season, whether you need a paperback to toss in your beach bag, or you won’t be going anywhere near the beach anytime soon and would welcome a vicarious vacation. I can’t wait to share this conversation with you.

Please share your favorite beach reads by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Kristina on her website and on Instagram.

[00:00:00] KRISTINA FOREST: What I love particularly about romance, you'll find a book that you really, really like, and you'll be like, "This was amazing." And you'll look up the author, and they've written like 50 other books, and you're like, "Perfect. I'm getting them all."

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:46] Readers, today I'm excited to dive into the world of summer reading with Kristina Forest, contemporary romance writer and author of the 2026 MMD Summer Reading Guide title, The Summer Girlfriend, which appeared in our Seaside Stories category and is available on bookstore shelves now as it was just released on June 9th.

I described it in the guide as a sweet summer romance bursting with bookishness and baked goods. The plot hinges on a fake relationship that blossoms out of a bookstore meet-cute. The beach setting was inspired by a handful of real places, some of which surprised me, and Kristina's deep and abiding love for the Jersey Shore.

The family's warm and inviting beach home is a character in its own right, and a Black-owned family business that makes delectable baked goods features prominently in the story. And of course, romance and chemistry feature prominently in these pages.

We are going to get into all of it today, along with some of Kristina's very favorite titles for beach reading season, whether you need a paperback to toss in your beach bag, or you won't be going anywhere near the beach anytime soon and would welcome a vicarious vacation. I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Let's get to it. Kristina, welcome to the show.

[00:01:56] KRISTINA: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. Congrats on your new release.

KRISTINA: Thank you so much. I'm really excited for it.

ANNE: We're talking before the day, but The Summer Girlfriend enters the world on June 9th, so it'll be ready and waiting whenever readers are listening.

KRISTINA: Yes, just in time for summer.

ANNE: Exactly. All right. Well, I'm so excited to talk today. I really enjoyed your book, but I've been reading you for years, and I know many of our listeners as well. And you're probably new to some of our listeners, so I hope you all enjoy listening in and meeting a new-to-you author.

But Kristina, could we start by just giving the readers a glimpse of who you are? Would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

KRISTINA: Yes, sure. So I'm Kristina Forest. I am a romance novelist, contemporary romance particularly, but I started my career writing YA romance in 2019. I am a born and raised Jersey girl. I'm very proud of that, even though I spent about a decade of my life living in New York City, which I also sort of feel like a New York City person still.

[00:02:59] I worked in publishing, children's books publishing, for many years. I love reading romance novels, which is probably not a surprise to a lot of people. My favorite subgenre is historical romance. That is definitely my happy place of reading, of reading, period, is historical romance. But that's what got me into reading romance novels.

I was reading Tessa Dare, and Beverly Jenkins, and Lisa Kleypas, and from there I started reading contemporary. And it was really The Kiss Quotient by Helen Hoang that made me a bigger contemporary romance reader. I believe that novel published in 2018, I think is when that came out. From there I went to Jasmine Guillory, Nisha Sharma, and Alisha Rai. I was discovering so many contemporary romance authors.

But The Kiss Quotient was the book that I read, and I thought, "Oh, maybe I could do this too." Because at the time I had been writing YA, but I wanted to try and write adult romance. And so romance novels is like what I live and breathe.

[00:04:10] ANNE: I am so curious about the leap from YA to adult. It never occurred to me that... I mean, what do I know, Kristina? But it never occurred to me that reading one specific work would be the impetus. I'd love to hear more.

KRISTINA: Yes, sure. After I graduated from undergrad, I went to undergrad in New Jersey, I took several creative writing classes. And at the time, because I was younger, I was reading a lot of YA, particularly YA romance. I was a huge, and still am, but I was a huge fan of Sarah Dessen when I was in high school.

I took a creative writing class in high school, and my teacher brought in her father, who was an author. His name is David Lubar, and he wrote middle grade and YA. He gave a presentation on his books, and he essentially made a comment that was... he said something to the effect of, "Oh, my books helped put your teacher through college." And it just was like a light bulb in my head because I really loved to read, but it had never occurred to me that it was a career, if that makes any sense.

[00:05:19] You know, I was 17 at the time. I was like, "I really like reading books," but I didn't think of the career of being an author the same way that I thought about being a teacher or being a lawyer or something like that. I was like, "Wow, this is a career where he makes a livable wage, to the extent that he can help put his daughter through college?"

And I thought, again, about Sarah Dessen, I was obsessed with her books, and I was like, "I really want to do that, but I want to write those kinds of stories featuring people who look like me, with Black characters." From there, it was literally that moment at my senior year of high school when I took that creative writing class that I decided that I wanted to be a writing major in college, and thankfully, my parents didn't ask a lot of questions. They did not ask me really... I don't think my dad said anything. He was like, "Okay." My mom was just like, "Okay, fine," you know? I was very lucky that they just-

ANNE: They thought you'd come to your senses on your own.

[00:06:19] KRISTINA: No. It was more just like I was a very determined kid. I was like the kid who would come home from school on Fridays and do my homework right away. That's just a perfect way to sum up the way that I was when I was younger. I think definitely still like that as an adult but I think that my parents just knew that I... I think they just trusted that I knew what I was doing to the extent that a 17-year-old can know what they're doing. But yeah, they didn't ask me any questions.

And so I was a writing arts major, which I think is a major that's particular to my college, which was Rowan University. And so I had to take several creative writing classes while I was there. I had a few professors who read some of my short stories, which were primarily middle grade and YA. They encouraged me to apply to get my Master of Fine Arts, which was great because I had no idea what I was going to do after graduation.

[00:07:13] These few professors encouraged me to apply to grad school, and so I applied to The New School in New York City and I was accepted into the Writing for Children program, so then I moved. While I was studying, I had a few internships because I thought it would be important to learn the inside of the publishing industry if I wanted to be an author. Essentially, I wanted to know how the sausage was made.

My first internship was at Macmillan in their children's publishing department. And I wanted to stay in New York. You know, like a lot of people, I moved there and fell completely in love. It's still my favorite city. And it's very expensive, so I needed a job.

So while I was in grad school, I was interning in publishing, and one of the internships turned into a job. This was at Simon & Schuster. A quick way to sum that up is while I was working at S&S, I graduated from grad school, and my graduate degree, as you can imagine, was not cheap in New York City. And I was like, "I need to make all the loans that I took out to get this degree worth it," and so I became very determined to get an agent and to get a book deal.

[00:08:29] And so what I was working on was my first novel, which was titled I Want to Be Where You Are. This was a YA rom-com about a ballerina who goes on a road trip with the boy next door to a dance audition. At the time, I really was inspired, again, by Sarah Dessen, but also authors like Jenny Han, Stephanie Perkins. I thought that I would spend my career writing YA.

I wrote three YA novels, and I loved the experience. I think that there's something very fulfilling about writing for youth. And I loved meeting librarians and younger readers out at the festivals because they loved the books, and they wanted to see more books like that, particularly young Black readers who are looking for books like that. Because when I was in high school, there weren't a lot of contemporary YA romances featuring young Black girls. And so I really took a lot of pride in being able to write those stories for young girls who were like me, how I was when I was in high school, who were looking for those books.

[00:09:41] Then I turned 30. I was turning 30, and I just sort of felt like I had said all I wanted to say in the teen space. Also because I was working in children's books publishing, a lot of what I read was children's literature, of course. And so I'm reading picture books and chapter books and middle grade and YA all day.

I started reading adult fiction for pleasure because it was a way to separate what I was doing for work from my personal life. A friend of mine worked at St. Martin's Press, and she was a publicist who worked on a historical romance, and we used to send books back and forth to each other. And one day she sent me a box of mass market historical romance novels, and when I tell you, I think I read that entire box in like two weeks. I was like, "Oh my God, this is amazing."

ANNE: Oh, that sounds like a peak. I mean, we're talking in June, so it sounds like peak summer experience. Wow. It brings back so many childhood memories, too, of trading books with my neighbor. I mean, boxes of books. What a delight.

[00:10:46] KRISTINA: I know. We would just send each other packages. That's another plus of working in publishing is just the amount of leftover or free books that you find around the office. That feeling that I had of discovering these historical romance novels reminded me of like you're saying of when you're younger and you find a book that you really love.

What I love particularly about romance, but because I'm talking about historical, I'll stay there, is you'll find a book that you really, really like, and you'll be like, "This was amazing." And you'll look up the author and they've written like 50 other books. And you're like, "Perfect. I'm getting them all." And you can just immerse yourself in the author's entire backlist.

[00:11:32] I think this might be the first year that I haven't done it, but I usually pick one author and I just read their entire backlist for a couple months at a time. And it's the most enjoyable experience because a lot of the times it's series which then break off into other interconnected series and you're just immersed in this world of this family or these friends. Nothing captures my attention the way that a romance novel does.

ANNE: That sounds incredible. Who are some of the authors you've done this with?

KRISTINA: Oh, gosh, Lisa Kleypas, Beverly Jenkins, Tessa Dare, Laura Kinsale, Susan Elizabeth Phillips, who writes... she is actually the romance author who invented the sports romance genre.

ANNE: What?

KRISTINA: In my opinion. And I think a lot of people would agree with me.

ANNE: We like a hot take.

[00:12:29] KRISTINA: Yeah. Because her Chicago Star series is about a team of football players. The Chicago Stars are a fictional football team, and the different women who fall in love with either these players or these coaches. But maybe didn't invent it, but she popularized it, as she made it very popular in the '90s and early 2000s.

So I did that with her, and that was a great time. Last year it was Laura Kinsale. I read a bunch of her backlist. And she's a historical romance author. But I haven't had time to do it this year. This has been a busy... It's probably the busiest writing year that I've had, this year has been. So I'm way behind on anything, any reading.

ANNE: I trust you'll catch up in the fall.

KRISTINA: Yeah, that's fingers crossed that I will be able to catch up on my TBR.

ANNE: Do you read solely romance, Kristina?

[00:13:24] KRISTINA: I would say about 95% of what I read is romance. I read different subgenres of romance. I will sometimes read sci-fi. I will read historical, like I said I'll read contemporary. And then I'll read rom-com. I think there's a difference between a contemporary romance and a romantic comedy. But then occasionally, I do... I also read historical fiction.

There are a few authors who I really love. I love Sadeqa Johnson, Yellow Wife and House of Eve. Those are two of my favorite books. And then I also do read literary fiction. I love Brit Bennett. Her book, The Mothers, is one of my favorite books of all time. I'm looking forward to reading Harlem Rhapsody by Victoria Christopher Murray, Kin by Tayari Jones. These are books that I bought when they came out, and I'm just waiting for the chance to be able to read them when I meet all of my deadlines. So, yeah, majority of what I read is romance, though.

ANNE: Well, you said nothing holds your attention like a romance.

KRISTINA: Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:23] ANNE: Which may speak to what your personal reading does for you. I'd love to hear more about what reading means to you or what role it fills in your life, whatever direction you want to take that.

KRISTINA: A question that I feel like I get asked a lot or that authors get asked a lot is like, "What are your favorite hobbies?" And the only one I can ever really say is reading. And it always, I'm like, "Oh, does that sound boring because I'm an author? Of course, I'm going to say reading." But it really is my number one hobby.

When I am not reading a good book, I feel off, and I don't know if you feel this way, too, because I know that you read a lot, or if the people listening feel that way. But if too many weeks have gone by where I haven't read a book, and this sometimes happens when I'm on deadline, I'm just so locked in that I can't immerse myself in the works of someone else, I start to feel really like something isn't right.

[00:15:22] I love reading good books. I love being immersed in other people's art, and reading brings me joy, and it feels like a safe space. And I feel happiest when, of course, things are going well in my personal life, but also when I'm reading a really good book. It makes me excited. It makes me excited about literature. I love seeing how people respond to a book that I've read and really liked too, you know, in the reader community.

I think that reading creates a sense of connection also because I think we tend to be... readers tend to be introverted people. I know. I describe myself as an extroverted introvert. I'm naturally introverted, but I can be extroverted if I need to be. But I think that what brings us all together is that we love to be immersed in the pages of a fictional story or nonfiction if people prefer to read nonfiction. But it really is my favorite hobby. It's what I really love to do in my spare time.

[00:16:31] ANNE: Well, I relate to that. I feel restless when I'm not in the middle of a good book or when I don't have one on deck that I just can't wait to get into. I like to know there's a book, a specific book and story experience waiting for me when I'm ready for it, at all times really. I'm realizing as I listen to you talk about this.

KRISTINA: Yes, yes. I agree with that.

ANNE: Kristina, with your past books being published in February, The Summer Girlfriend coming out in June is a change, I'm thinking that's maybe not a coincidence.

KRISTINA: Yeah, no, very, very strategic to have this book come out at the beginning of summer.

ANNE: Well, I'd love to hear more about writing a beach read in all the senses.

KRISTINA: Yes. I really was just thinking about all of my memories and old current of spending summers at the beach in New Jersey, particularly Wildwood Beach, which is where we went every summer. It's also where we went after prom. I think that might be a New Jersey-specific thing. I don't know if other states have this, especially if you don't have a beach.

[00:17:47] But in high school after prom, we would spend the weekend at Wildwood. Like everybody would go. You would get hotel rooms, or some people had like beach houses or whatever, but we would spend the weekend at Wildwood. That felt quintessential to my youth.

My parents used to drive us to Wildwood Beach. You know, we would sometimes go for the day, sometimes go for a few days. Wildwood has this huge boardwalk and along the boardwalk, there's places where you can get funnel cake and fried Oreo. Literally, you can get anything imaginable fried in dough and covered in powdered sugar. It's there at these places. And these huge slices of pizza, these huge cartons of lemonade, and it's so sugary and sweet, salt water taffy, and the different sections of the boardwalk that has games and rides. It's just so much going on.

[00:18:43] And the beach itself is really long. The point of when you get off the boardwalk to walk to the actual shore, oh my gosh, that always feels like the longest walk in the world, especially if the sand is hot, and you're just trying to run and get to the wet sand as fast as you can because your feet are burning.

These were just like very clear memories in my mind, and I wanted to put that onto the page so that when people read The Summer Girlfriend, they would feel like, "Ah, this is what it means to be at the beach in New Jersey for the summer."

And the smell. The smell of the saltwater is just everywhere, and the seagulls calling to each other and also bothering you. Like the minute they smell food, they are right in front of you. So I was just trying to capture all of those memories when I was drafting.

[00:19:41] ANNE: Oh, I'm so jealous. You were singing the praises of New Jersey beaches before we hit record on this conversation. I love where I live, except I'm incredibly jealous that I'm like 600 miles from the ocean. And no citizen of New Jersey is that far away.

KRISTINA: Yeah, no. Yeah, we're lucky.

ANNE: I would love to hear more about the specific story setting of The Summer Girlfriend, but first could we zoom out for a moment?

KRISTINA: Yeah.

ANNE: Kristina, could you just give our readers a sense of what the book is about?

KRISTINA: So, The Summer Girlfriend is about a woman named Noelle who is saving up to go back to college. She had to drop out when she was originally in college when she was a teenager, and she wants to get her master's degree and become a librarian. But she's just been let go of her main job as a bookseller. She also has a side hustle as a bridesmaid for hire.

And she happens to meet a young man named Jeremiah who is wealthy. He's the heir to a baked goods company, and he is in need of a fake girlfriend for the summer at his family's beach house in the town called Heart Beach. And so they decide to fake date for the summer. He'll pay her to be his pretend girlfriend, and then she'll get the money for college. But not actually falling in love while pretending to be in a relationship is a lot easier said than done.

[00:20:57] ANNE: I enjoyed all the details so much. Okay, but I'm not going to get distracted right now. Let's go back to the story world. In the book's prologue, I think it's set in 1974 and we hear a little bit of the history of Heart Beach and this one specific house that comes into the protagonist's family. I mean, this was a whole new world to me.

The tone is so wistful, and you know as a reader this is the origin story for this house and this place that is going to come to mean so much to this family that we're reading about it in the present-day storyline 50 years later. But also, the way you describe Heart Beach is so fascinating. I loved hearing the details and history, and is... I was wondering if it's based on a real place. Perhaps you just hinted at that.

[00:21:44] KRISTINA: Yeah. There are actually a few inspirations for Heart Beach other than beaches like Wildwood and Ocean City, which is where I went growing up. Heart Beach was founded by a Black couple. And that was inspired by the history of Bruce's Beach in California, which is a part of Manhattan Beach.

Bruce's Beach was founded in the early 1900s. It sounds so weird to say the early 1900s, but it was founded in the early 1900s by this Bruce couple. They'd moved to California during the Great Migration, and they purchased a plot of land and turned it into a seaside resort that was welcoming to Black beachgoers because not all beaches were welcoming to Black people at the time. And it became a very popular attraction for Black people.

But the people in the predominantly White surrounding area were not happy with this. And because there was so much pushback from the people in the surrounding area, the Manhattan Beach Council voted to condemn Bruce's Beach. Then the land was unlawfully seized and the resort was demolished.

[00:22:52] It was a few years ago that the land was finally returned to the descendants, but they ended up selling it back to the county for about $20 million, and they decided to use that money to finally build some generational wealth within their family.

But I kept thinking, "What if that hadn't happened to this family? What if they were able to keep this land and to continue to be allowed to have this be a beautiful resort where Black people were buying homes and where they came to vacation?" And there's also Chicken Bone Beach in New Jersey, which was a Black beach in New Jersey during segregation.

So the history of those different beaches went into Heart Beach as well. I hint on that a little bit in the prologue when they're talking about the history of how the town started but also the particular house. I was intentional with starting the prologue by describing the house because I feel like Heart Beach is a character in itself in the novel. It's the place where everyone always comes back to.

[00:23:58] The heart of the story, of course, is the relationship between Noelle and Jeremiah, but then the broader heart of the story is this house in Heart Beach and how hard Jeremiah's grandparents worked to be able to buy this house and what that meant to them to be able to have a beach house that they could vacation at in the 1970s and how they've continued to keep this house in their family and how multiple generations have walked through the front doors.

It's especially because I think generational wealth is such a hard thing for Black people to be able to get and then attain in this country. And so I really wanted to write about that and to write about this family who they really love each other, but that the house is a reflection of that love and how the house has been expanded over the years in the same way that the family has expanded over the years.

[00:24:55] But it's where everyone comes back to every summer. They are here in Heart Beach, which is why it's a point of contention for Jeremiah, because he's been avoiding the house in Heart Beach after he had an argument with his grandfather before his grandfather passed away. He feels a lot of guilt over that argument, and so he's been avoiding this house, which also means so much to him. And so it kind of is eating him up inside that he feels as though he can't go back because of the bad memory that he has there.

ANNE: I love how you describe the house as being a character in its own right. And it does feel so warm and welcoming. I mean, some books are, in part, enjoyable to read because you want to spend time in the world they're set in, and I wanted to be at that house.

KRISTINA: Oh, good. I'm really glad to hear that.

[00:25:44] ANNE: I love how we see the legacy of the home and the generational wealth in this Black family. And also the recipes were passed down through the generations as well. This story is... I mean, I really enjoyed reading about the family business, but also it's a family business that makes baked goods. And something I've learned about myself is I like to read about things that taste good. I'd love to hear anything you have to say about legacy or sweets.

KRISTINA: That was inspired by my grandmother. We were very close. She passed away two years ago. So the relationship between Jeremiah and Pop, who's his grandfather, was sort of inspired by how close I was with my grandmother. She was like a second mom to me. And she made the most amazing pound cake. It's a secret. I know the recipe, my mom knows the recipe, but that's it. And we don't tell anyone because we're like, "If we're ever in dire straits, we can make that pound cake and sell it."

[00:26:48] It's literally what we keep in our back pocket. Like, if we ever need to figure out a way to make money, we will start selling that pound cake. And it's the cake that my friends... whenever someone's having a baby or they're moving or some kind of exciting life thing is happening, my friends text me like, "Does this mean I can get a pound cake?" At holidays they're like, "Are you making the pound cake this year?"

And it's just like everyone loves this pound cake. And because it was my grandmother's recipe, and I was thinking a lot about how I was... I remember being so young and standing next to her at the kitchen counter while she whipped the batter. And she would only let me eat a little tiny spoonful because she said I couldn't eat the raw eggs. And I was always so disappointed by that because the batter of this pound cake is... it's honestly my favorite part of making a pound cake is when I can eat the batter.

[00:27:45] I just have these memories of helping her to whip the cake. And she was a little woman, and I remember watching her with her little tiny arm whip all this thick batter and being so fascinated by how she did it so perfectly, that she would make drop cookies and pies and everything from scratch.

My grandmother, she really was kind of grandmother from a storybook. We would come home from school, and she would have cookies, and my friends would always want to come over and be like, "Did your grandmom bake?" You know? She would make lemonade fresh. She was an amazing woman.

The three of us, me, my mom, and my grandmother had this joke that we would one day start selling those poundcakes. So when I was thinking about what the Smith family would be known for, what their legacy would be, I thought, "Oh, poundcakes." It starts with his grandfather making a poundcake for his wife, and then from there he's like, "Well, what else can I bake?" That was inspired by my own relationship with my mom and my grandmom, and how much we all love to bake, and all the secret recipes that we have.

[00:29:00] ANNE: Oh, that sounds amazing. My mom always talked about her grandmother's baking as well. That it was incredibly delicious, but the ugliest baked good you had ever seen. I'm not sure they were Smith's Sweets material.

Now, many readers will not be sad to discover the book that they're reading features a library or a bookstore. We kind of get a twofer with The Summer Girlfriend. Would you say more about that? I especially loved your bookstore's name in the book.

KRISTINA: Oh, thank you. Noelle, at the beginning of the novel, she works at a place called Hidden Gems Books. Particularly it's a used bookstore, hence the name Hidden Gems. And her boss, Harold, is lovingly curmudgeonly, but he's very strict on we only sell used books. And I believe that's what he says is, "People need to read about what came before before they read new things."

[00:29:53] And even though Noelle's like, "We need to sell new books in order to keep people wanting to come to the store," and just because a lot of the time the big best sellers are the ones that are driving the revenue. But he's very, very solid in the fact that he only wants to sell older used books at the store. So that's where that name came from. Then also Heart Beach Books is the bookstore in Heart Beach. That name is just... you know, there's only one bookstore in Heart Beach, so it's called Heart Beach Books.

But yes, Noelle is a book lover, and she discovered a love for reading after she had to drop out of college and her mom was going through some health struggles. She found reading, and she found reading to be a safe space. I think the way that many of us come to reading or the “what” we love about reading is that it provides an escape.

[00:30:45] And she just became a very avid reader, and she had a very wonderful interaction with a librarian who took her around the library and just gave her a bunch of recommendations. And she realized that she wanted to be able to be that person for someone else who was going through a hard time and was shown kindness and patience and was provided with a bunch of really good books to read to help her get through a tough time in her life. So that becomes her goal. She loves to read, but she also wants to share the love of reading with other people.

ANNE: I love that. Kristina, you were saying that Noelle was largely inspired by your student loans. Do I have that right?

KRISTINA: Yes. I just have a lot of student loans, because I went to grad school in New York City. And I remember thinking... and this was early on of when I was in the preliminary stages of thinking of the idea of The Summer Girlfriend, of fleshing it out. And I thought, "Ugh, I wish somebody would just come along and give me a bunch of money." You know? "I wish someone would just come along and pay off those loans for me."

[00:31:56] And then I thought about Jeremiah. Like, wouldn't it be lovely if you knew some guy who was handsome and kind, and... you know, of course, he's not perfect. He's got his own emotional wounds going on. But if he came up to you and was like, "You don't have to do anything. I'll just pay off your loans for you."

So that's sort of what ends up happening to Noelle. He's like, "I will pay your remaining tuition if you come to my family's beach house with me and pretend to be my girlfriend for the summer." And she's like, "Oh, gosh, so hard. You're so hot. Of course I'll do it," you know? It's not hard money to make. But that was the inspiration is just thinking about the student loans that I currently owe.

ANNE: Well, I enjoyed reading about that and her summer at Heart Beach. Kristina, for those heading to the beach themselves this summer, or for those who are not heading to the beach and really wish they were, I'd love to hear about some of your favorite beach reads.

[00:32:57] KRISTINA: Yes, of course. So my first recommendation is going to be a novel called Only for the Week, and this is by Natasha Bishop.

ANNE: Oh, I don't know this.

KRISTINA: This is a romance novel, and is a true beach read because it takes place in Tulum, Mexico. A woman named Janelle is in Mexico for her sister's wedding. She's the maid of honor. But the twist is that her sister is actually getting married to her ex-boyfriend who she broke up with years ago. She doesn't care about him anymore, but there's tension there, of course, that her sister ended up dating her ex.

But she ends up getting in a very flirtatious situation with the best man, who is, of course, the groom's best friend. So it's a lot of messy drama between those four people. But they decide that they are only going to be in a very short fling for the week that they're in Mexico. But of course, when you decide that, you know, we're only going to be together for this limited period of time, things don't always end up like that.

[00:33:59] My other recommendation is a novel called Curvy Girl Summer by an author named Danielle Allen. This is a novel about a woman named Aaliyah who is determined to find a boyfriend by the end of the summer where she's having her big 30th birthday party. So she goes on a series of dates, trying to find different guys who could be the potential boyfriend to bring to this party.

And she goes on all of her dates at the same bar. And she ends up striking up a very interesting friendship with a very cute bartender, and it turns out that the person who might be the best boyfriend for her could have been in front of her the whole time.

So those are two that I off the bat recommend because they take place during summer and have very summery feeling, perfect for the beach. This is a book that published earlier this year. It's called One and Only by Maurene Goo.

[00:34:56] Maurene is another author who started out writing YA and who is now writing... I would say One and Only toes that line between women's fiction and romance. But this is a story about a woman who... she's Korean American, and in her family they have the secret magical gift of being able to read into people's past lives and discovering who their soulmates are. So that's how they make their living. No one knows how it's done, but people pay a lot of money for them to figure out who their soulmates are.

And she is nearing her 40th birthday and she knows her soulmate's name, but she still has not met him. And she ends up falling for someone who's a little bit younger than her. But then it turns out that the person whose name is on the note for her soulmate is this guy's boss. So she ends up in this very interesting love triangle between the younger guy that she likes and then his boss, who she also really likes.

[00:36:00] This was the first novel that I've read in a long time that had a love triangle, but really I genuinely did not know how it was going to end. And I thought that was really refreshing. I really love Maurene's books. So those are three novels that I highly recommend people take to the beach this summer.

ANNE: Ooh, thank you. What's the best book you've read this year?

KRISTINA: I loved every book that I read this year. Oh, One and Only. I would say One and Only probably. That was probably my favorite book. Another book that I really loved this year was Keeper of Lost Children by Sadeqa Johnson. I had mentioned her before. She writes historical fiction.

This novel talks about a little-known history of mixed-race children in Germany post-World War II and how there was a woman who was a wife to a soldier who was stationed in Germany, and how she discovered this orphanage filled with mixed-race children, and this is usually from Black men who were stationed in Germany but then weren't allowed to marry the German women that they met or for various different reasons the children were given up. And she worked to get these children adopted by couples in the United States. A very interesting, you know, multiple perspectives. That was also a really good novel.

[00:37:23] ANNE: Yeah, I really enjoyed that myself.

KRISTINA: Oh, you read it, too?

ANNE: Yeah, yeah.

KRISTINA: Okay, perfect.

ANNE: I really like her. And Kristina, what's one book that you're really excited about reading this summer, high on your priority list?

KRISTINA: Oh, gosh. I would definitely say Score by Kennedy Ryan. This is book two in her... oh, gosh, I'm blanking on the name of the series. But the first book is called Real, and that's one of my favorite romance novels. Essentially, the series is about a group of creatives who are coming together to make a biopic about a woman named Dessie Blue who was a Harlem Renaissance figure.

The first book is about the director who falls in love with the lead actress, and Score is about the screenwriter and the man who's making the score for the novel. I know that there's an actual title for that job, but I'm just blanking right now. I'm thinking score creator. I know that's not right. But it's a romance between the two of them. It's a second-chance romance, because they had dated previously in college, and now they're working on this film together.

[00:38:27] KRISTINA: I loved Reel and so Score is definitely high up on my list to read once I hand in this next book.

ANNE: That's good motivation. Kristina, thank you so much for talking books with me today. Is there anything else you want to tell our listeners?

KRISTINA: Thank you so much for having me. I guess what else I would like to say is that I hope that if you read The Summer Girlfriend, that it feels like a wonderful beachy read, even if you're not at the beach, and you're just reading on your lunch break at work. I hope it transports you to a beachy, summery environment.

ANNE: I mean, I love to take a good book to the beach, but also a good book can take you anywhere.

KRISTINA: Yes, I agree.

ANNE: Amazing. Well, we wish you well as you go out into the world to talk with readers in person so often about the book, and hope you have your best reading summer.

KRISTINA: Thank you so much.

[00:39:25] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kristina, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Kristina at her website, Kristinaforest.com, as well as on Instagram. And we have all those links and the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Follow our show on Instagram @WhatShouldIReadNext, and share your favorite summer episodes with a friend who might enjoy listening too. That would help us a lot, so thank you in advance.

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Please take a moment to check that you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:40:12] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• The Summer Girlfriend by Kristina Forest
• Tessa Dare (try The Duchess Deal)
• Beverly Jenkins (try Rebel)
• Lisa Kleypas (try Married by Morning)
• The Kiss Quotient by Helen Hoang
• Jasmine Guillory (try The Wedding Date)
• Nisha Sharma  (try Dating Dr. Dil) 
• Alisha Rai  (try Partners in Crime)
• Sarah Dessen (try The Rest of the Story)
• I Wanna Be Where You Are by Kristina Forest
• Jenny Han (try The Summer I Turned Pretty)
• Stephanie Perkins (try Anna and the French Kiss)
• Laura Kinsale (try For My Lady’s Heart)
• Susan Elizabeth Phillips (try And the Crowd Went Wild)
• Yellow Wife by Sadeqa Johnson
• The House of Eve by Sadeqa Johnson
• The Mothers by Brit Bennet
• Harlem Rhapsody by Victoria Christopher Murray
• Kin by Tayari Jones
• Only for the Week by Natasha Bishop
• One & Only by Maurene Goo 
• Keeper of Lost Children by Sadeqa Johnson
• Score by Kennedy Ryan
• Reel by Kennedy Ryan

• 2026 Summer Reading Guide
• The story about Bruce’s Beach, which was one of Kristina’s inspirations for the story setting of Heart Beach.
• Please support our sponsors.

The post Nothing holds my attention like a romance appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

I love a summer reading project of any style, and when I read the submission from today’s guest and her quest for what she is calling a short summer of reading, I wanted to talk about it on the show.

So today, Emily Henderson joins me. She is a mom of four, writer, and runner with a passion for home design, and she loves a project. While Emily came to reading later in life, she’s found through trial and error what really works for her, and these days, for reasons we talk about, that’s often books in an audio format.

This summer, though, Emily would love to prioritize daily reading on the page. She’s looking for short reading experiences that will not only get her reading more in print, but also serve as a satisfying substitute for social media that she wants to spend less time on.

Emily is looking for short stories, essay collections, memoirs and essays, and micro histories that deliver the quick bite-sized reading experience she is hoping to log every day of summer break. And she’d especially appreciate stories that leave her breathless or make her think about them long after she finishes. I have ideas, and I can’t wait to dive in.

Please share your ideas for Emily by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Emily on Substack.

Our 2026 MMD Summer Reading Guide, the 15th edition, is available now. Buy your 38-page Summer Reading Guide PDF digital copy at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop, and you’ll also get access to the Unboxing event recording. This is also the second year we are offering a beautifully printed edition of the Guide: we sold out of our first batch, but more are on the way. If you’d like to order one, visit modernmrsdarcy.com/shop. At this time, we are only able to ship to U.S. addresses.

[00:00:00] EMILY HENDERSON: In preparation for this, I reread some of the short stories and essays with the pen in hand, and I was like, "Oh, now I really know this story. I like short stories so much that I don't read them, I guess."

ANNE BOGEL: Well, it sounds like perhaps you really want to do justice to them.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:50] Readers, our 2026 MMD Summer Reading Guide, the 15th edition, is available now. For instant gratification, you want the digital experience. Go to modernmrsdarcy.com/shop and get your Summer Reading Guide. You'll get the 38-page Summer Reading Guide PDF immediately, and you'll get access to the unboxing experience, where I walk you through the guide book by book so that you can decide how your reading time is best spent this summer.

Now, if you want a beautiful, delivered by snail mail, hold it in your hand, professionally printed 38-page guide, well, this is the second year that has been available. I have already told you these were going, going, gone so fast, and we sold out of that batch. They sold so quickly, in fact, that Will Bogel says we have to order more. So more are on the way.

If you want yours, you still have a chance. Go to, again, modernmrsdarcy.com/shop. What you want to order is the Summer Reading Guide print magazine. It will say very clearly this is the one that's coming in the mail. Go order yours, and it will be in your mailbox, US only, I'm afraid, very, very soon.

[00:02:06] Now, while you're at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop, you can check out our ever-popular Well-Read hat, our awesome tote bags — we're very picky about tote bags, us book people — our book darts, our pencils, our postcards, our new sorority sweatshirts. Lots of good stuff there. All that and more, modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

Readers, I love a summer reading project, as I'm sure you know, of any style. But when I read the submission from today's guest and her quest for what she is calling a short summer of reading, well, I had to know more, and I wanted to talk about it on the show.

So today, Emily Henderson joins me. She is a mom of four, writer, and runner with a passion for home design, and she loves a project. While Emily came to reading later in life, she's found through trial and error what really works for her, and these days, for reasons we talk about, that's often books in an audio format.

[00:03:05] This summer, though, Emily would love to prioritize daily reading on the page so she can build that stamina back up again. And to do so, she's looking for short reading experiences that will not only get her reading print, but also serve as a satisfying substitute for social media that she wants to spend less time on. Emily is looking for short stories, essay collections, memoirs and essays, and micro histories that deliver the quick bite-sized reading experience she is hoping to log every day of summer break, her short summer.

She'd especially appreciate stories that leave her breathless or make her think about them long after she finishes. I have ideas, and I can't wait to dive in. Readers, let's get to it.

Emily, welcome to the show.

EMILY: Hello, Anne. Thank you for having me.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. Thank you for bringing yourself and your reading life and your summer project to me and to our listeners.

EMILY: Yes, I'm excited.

[00:04:00] ANNE: Me too. Emily, let's start by just giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

EMILY: Yes. So, 40-something, mom of four, and I live with my family in Santa Barbara, California.

ANNE: Lovely. Emily, you are here today to talk about books, but we'd love to hear what's your life like. Like, what are you up to when you're not talking about books and reading on a Tuesday?

EMILY: I would describe myself as I'm a stay-at-home mom, I'm a runner, and I'm a reader, basically in that order. And so most of my days start at dawn, and I typically go for a run. My oldest is 15, my middle is 13, and the little baby is 3. So I'm kind of in, I guess I would say, two seasons of life in that I have the older teenagers who keep me busy with their emotions and after-school activities and academics and all of that, and then I have the very physical nature of having a preschooler.

[00:05:10] Between juggling that and trying to find time to carve out space for myself and my personal life and meet with friends, that's pretty much what keeps me busy.

ANNE: Emily, thank you for sending in the submission to our form at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. Just sharing that in case any listeners are like, "What is she talking about?" But I gathered from your submission that you are a project person, and not just in your reading life. Is that actually the case?

EMILY: Oh, yes, absolutely. I love a good project. One of the things I said in my submission was that during the pandemic, my husband works in a hospital, and with all the stress of having kids at home for school, I needed to find a way to get out of the house.

I had heard about some people running every street in their city, and so I said, "Okay, that's what I'm going to do with my weekends." And I called into our local bookstore, Chaucer's Books in Santa Barbara, and I ordered a... I was like, "Hey, here are some books that I want, but also, can I get a map?" An actual physical street map of Santa Barbara.

[00:06:28] I literally opened it up and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go run this neighborhood." And I decided I was going to run every street in our city. It took me about 16 months, and it ended up being 500 miles or something like that. But it was just a wonderful way to see my city and to kinda just see it from the street level and really feel like I got to know kind of the whole area, because I literally have been on every single street in the city. So yeah, I'm definitely a project person.

And then a couple years ago, my husband and I bought our house in, let's see, 2011, and in 2023 we decided we were going to take it all the way down to the foundation and remodel it from essentially the ground up. And that was just another project we embarked on, so that was a lot of internet searching. Pinterest and I were like best friends for the entire time.

[00:07:37] We just made every decision. We literally decided where all the light switches were going, what color were the windows, and how big were our hallways were going to be. I have a friend who's about 10 years older than I am, and she always said, "You know, the great test of a marriage is to hang wallpaper together. And if you can make it through that, then you're good." And I said, "Well, we made it through remodeling our whole house, so we must be doing okay."

ANNE: Oh, yikes. I have some wallpaper I'd like to be hung. I don't think I want to do it with my husband. Okay. That's really interesting context since we're talking to you about a reading project today, or I don't know, maybe we'll find out what it is and how committed you are to it after our conversation. But I hope you leave more excited, not less.

Emily, tell us about your reading life.

[00:08:34] EMILY: It's interesting that I became an adult who is literally never without a book, because when I was a kid, I was very late to learning how to read. And the fact that I would kind of hide that I did not know how to read. I got very good at figuring out context clues and all of these things. And it probably wasn't until fifth grade that I really felt like, "Oh, wait, I just read that book and I understood it."

It was still a struggle through elementary and high school, but I was able to kind of work through and then I just really discovered a love for literature when I was in college. I was an English major of all things. And when you're an English major in college, it's a different kind of reading in that it's like Milton and ancient British literature and The Iliad and The Odyssey and Heart of Darkness and all these classics.

[00:09:37] But I also got to take a really fun class called Detective Fiction, where we read Sherlock Holmes, of course, but then Carl Hiaasen, who I still laugh out loud when I read his books. And then after college, it was kind of like, "Okay, now what?"

But I graduated in 2002, and you would have thought like, Oh, I'll be done with reading. But that was the explosion of Jennifer Weiner's books, and In Her Shoes, and all of those books, and they were just like... I don't know if easy breezy is the best way to describe them, but they were just great books to be reading when you don't want to read hard stuff, but they're still well-written, go down easy. I think one of the things you say is like, "Easy reading means hard writing." And I can imagine that that's exactly how those books come to be.

[00:10:35] Now, as an adult, I'm just never without a book. The one thing that has changed in probably the last eight or 10 years is that I'm almost exclusively reading through the audio format. So I just kinda miss reading on the page. I miss that deep work of underlining and highlighting and going to Google and looking up things. I really just miss that deep reading.

So while I listen to 75-ish books a year, I'm kind of wondering if maybe what I'm needing is less actual titles, but deeper reading on the page.

[00:11:23] ANNE: I saw that in a past submission you'd sent in that you said you read X number of books the previous year, and that was too many.

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: Would you say more about that?

EMILY: There's just so many great stories and I want to consume them all. But that is absolutely unavailable to anyone. I think I find myself not necessarily FOMO, but just like, "Oh, that looks so great. Okay, I've gotta get through it fast." It's almost like this race to read all of the great literature that there ever was.

Then I think there was a year where I was like 75-ish, and I was like, "This was too much," because I felt like I looked back over that list, and I didn't even remember. Like, "Oh, I did read that? I guess I did. I remember that cover, but I have no idea what happened in that book."

[00:12:17] But also, like what I was saying about how being an English major, I still remember the gist of scenes that I remember reading back in college, which was a long time ago. And so I feel like if I slowed down, still read audio because I love that format, but that I replaced some of those books with books on the page, it will help me slow down a little bit and kind of consume the story versus, I don't know, I guess get a deeper understanding.

ANNE: That is really useful to keep in mind. Emily, this is really interesting and great context as we explore what you want in your reading life in the months to come and how I can help. I know you've brought a specific project that I've now referenced several times to the podcast today. Would now be a good time to tell us all about it before we go forward?

EMILY: Yeah, I think that's perfect.

[00:13:16] ANNE: Okay. What do you have in mind? And I'm wondering if it's a natural extension of what you've been describing just now.

EMILY: During the summer, I want to read a short story or an essay every day for the summer, and what I've been loosely calling this is called Short Summer. And the idea being that the idea of reading a whole novel day after day on the page kind of feels overwhelming right now. But if I sit down, and I'm like, "Oh, I just have like 20-ish pages, 20 to 40 pages to read," I can find that time throughout the day, or even if I just have a good chunk of time while the kids are off at school to sit down.

And then it feels like not only can I get the beginning, middle, and end of a story or a thought or idea from an essay, but it feels like I'm more experiencing it than running through it like I might if I were listening to an audiobook while doing other things like dishes or laundry. I feel like it will force me to sit down, pen in hand, and really absorb the idea of what an author is trying to say.

[00:14:37] The thing I like about short stories is that they're so compact, and so much is expected out of... you know, every word seems to be important, whereas a novel just has kind of like forever to talk. Maybe not forever, but you get what I'm saying.

ANNE: Yes. Emily, some readers would notice that they want to do more deep reading, and they might choose a book and do some deep reading. Would you tell me how the project nature specifically appeals? I'm endlessly fascinated by how readers seek to make their reading lives fun and enticing and make their plans work for them and their personalities. I'm wondering if I'm projecting or making assumptions or if marrying the project with the wider aims is really critical here.

[00:15:30] EMILY: It makes a lot of sense because, like my running project, it was very simple. All I had to do was I needed a map and a Sharpie and a GPS app, which I used Strava, and I just picked a neighborhood and I went. Whereas this project with short stories and essays, it's essentially like I've got this collection of short stories, all I need is this book and a pen, and then I'm off. So it's very simple. And if I just map out one chunk of time, maybe it's like 45 minutes or an hour, to me, a project, if I'm going to complete it, I very much could make things more complicated, but if I want to complete the project, it's gotta be simple.

ANNE: I was instantly captivated by Short Summer. Obviously, the length is a factor here. Tell me about your relationship with short stories and essays.

[00:16:30] EMILY: Well, as an English major, you read a lot of anthologies, and so I wouldn't say that I have a whole lot of current connection with short stories themselves since college, really. I didn't really pick up a whole lot of short stories until one of my selections is a collection of short stories that you mentioned, I think, in one of your Quick Lit things, and I was like, "Oh, that looks cool." And I listened to it on audio, and I was blown away.

Again, it's that economy of language that's required in a short story that's just so wonderful that always draws me to them. But I kind of forget that I like them because they're not that popular. Like, short story collections are not that popular now.

[00:17:21] ANNE: I was just reading something in Publishing News, industry take, where the premise was there has never been a market for anthologies. Period. The end. Readers love short stories, writers love short stories, and also this is not profitable, or it almost feels even viable format, and yet they keep coming out and readers keep coming to them.

EMILY: Yeah. Well, because... Actually, I take that back. Lily King came out with a short story collection a few years ago, and I remember loving every single story that was in it.

ANNE: I still have a bookmark in that from several years ago. Thank you for... This episode has actually made me think, "What are the collections that I've begun?"

EMILY: But again, I listened to them on audio. I just remember loving all of them, but I don't really remember the gist of all of them. In preparation for this, I reread some of the short stories and essays with a pen in hand, and I was like, "Oh, now I really know this story. I like short stories so much that I don't read them, I guess."

[00:18:25] ANNE: Well, it sounds like perhaps you really want to do justice to them.

EMILY: Yes, yes.

ANNE: Which ironically might make you less likely to pick them up because it has to be like the right time. You need the space, you need the pen, you need the chair.

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: Where an audiobook, you can listen in the car.

EMILY: All the time, yeah.

ANNE: Or whatever it is you're doing.

EMILY: Yeah, yeah. And so I feel like if I have the project connected to it, then I'll make the time. I'll be able to fit that in.

ANNE: Emily, it sounds like you know so much about your reading life. You've read short story collections in the past that you've really enjoyed. I know several of your favorites are going to be essay collections. What brings you to the podcast with this project? I'd love to know what I can add that you feel like you're still missing.

[00:19:06] EMILY: I guess maybe direction on what am I missing in the literary world that's either classic or contemporary published that maybe I wouldn't know about in terms of short stories or essay collections. I think there are more nonfiction essays out there. Those are a little bit more readily available. But I guess it's more direction, like, "Hey, here's something that maybe you hadn't thought about." Or if you're hearing something in my responses that's like, "I think you might want to try this author."

ANNE: Okay. So do I get to be the outside POV who looks at what would enhance this project? What might you want to read that you haven't even considered yet?

EMILY: Yeah. I think that would be really... Especially when it comes to nonfiction.

ANNE: And I hope that talking about it helps it feel even more immediate and makes you even more excited to get started.

EMILY: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:20:00] ANNE: Okay. So we know where you're going in the future. We're going to flesh that out a little bit with identifying some more potential titles. But first we're going to look back at what you've enjoyed and haven't enjoyed in the past.

Emily, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately before we come back to Short Summer and your options there. How did you choose these books today?

EMILY: Well, I had to narrow it down to it being short stories and essays, so that made it easier because I haven't read too many of them. I was introduced to a short story collection by you called The History of Sound by Ben Shattuck. This is a collection of interlinking short stories, mostly set in New England.

The way it's structured is in what's called a hook and chain, which is actually what poems or songs are done, where the first and last line rhymes, and then the middle lines are all couplets. So that's how he structured these short stories, where the first story is kind of a standalone in the beginning, and then there's what you'd call couplets of short stories in the middle, and then the last short story is connected to the first short story.

[00:21:24] And I thought it was just a really interesting way to organize a collection. But the theme of all of them kind of being set in a similar area, discussing first love and all of that does kind of make them feel... Like, it doesn't feel like they're all willy-nilly short stories. They're just all kind of together, even though they're different stories, but they follow similar themes.

The title story is about two musicians, Lionel and David, both very talented, and they fall in love traveling through New England recording American folk songs. And this is set back in 1916. They do it on these wax phonographic cylinders, which when he was describing it, I was having a hard time thinking of it until I read the second story where she described them as looking like toilet paper rolls. Which was a really... I was like, "Oh yeah, now I have a good image."

[00:22:25] What I liked about these two interlinking stories is that the last story almost answers the questions of, like, how do you really know someone you love, and kind of the intensity of a first love. And there's one really great line that Lionel is kind of telling this story of his youth when he's in his 80s, I think, and he says, "You know, I look back on that time, and it's not with sadness or grief," but that he looks at his life like it could've been an inch longer. And I thought that was just such a beautiful way to... I guess you're looking back and being like, "Oh, that could have been different." And just a beautiful line that kind of encompasses everything.

It's also beautifully written. These stories are great. Again, I think those short lines talk about how compact a short story has to be, but also kind of open. Even though it's one line, it opens up a whole world that maybe you didn't know was there.

[00:23:31] And to me, I love the ending of a short story that kind of leaves you breathless and leaves you with a little bit of an ellipsis that is still satisfying. Like you don't feel like, "Oh, I want to know more." You're like, "Oh, but there's this whole other story." Like the story kinda keeps going without you, I guess that's what I think. You're lingering or thinking or wondering, and that's what I love about that one.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm really glad that worked for you. Emily, what's the second book you love?

EMILY: This is a collection of essays. It's called The Anthropocene Reviewed: Essays on a Human-Centered Planet by John Green. This came out in 2021. I felt like I couldn't escape the cover. I felt like it was everywhere. Maybe that's just because we were all home during the pandemic.

[00:24:25] Honestly, it's a joyful book. It's like 40-ish very short, two to three pages of essays of... I guess, would you call them essays? They're reviews of things like the internet and Diet Dr Pepper and Halley's Comet.

Green writes with such a joyful melancholy about him. He's just so aware of the bittersweetness of life. One of the lines I loved was, "We all know how loving ends, but I want to fall in love with the world anyway, to let it crack me open. I want to feel what there is to feel while I'm here." And I just think that's just such a wonderful sentiment to be like, "Look at this world that we're in."

And there is a little bit of COVID talk in there, so if people aren't ready for that, they might not want to go there. But I really liked it, because I'm kind of in a space where I want to look back at COVID and be like, "Wow, that was a really big thing that happened in our world. Let's think about it."

[00:25:32] ANNE: Yeah. Okay, so that's an example of an essay collection you loved. The John Green collection is really varied. He talks about Diet Dr Pepper and Wintry Mix and the Indy 500. Some of the things he discusses are on the surface fun, I almost want to say frivolous, but I don't know that joy feels frivolous right now, because he loves Diet Dr Pepper. But some from the jump are deep and moving. What is it about that reading experience that you really loved as a reader?

EMILY: I think it's just the bittersweetness. I think some people look at bittersweet as like there's some negativity around that. I've always looked at it as like that is the juice of life, where you can encompass something so light and Anne, like you said, frivolous along with deep and heart-centered. And that is what life is. And I think that's why I'm so attracted to that kind of writing in nonfiction, that it's like you can talk to me about something that's hard, but it's also beautiful at the same time. That something that is good doesn't always have to only be joyful.

ANNE: So you liked the bite-sized complexity?

[00:27:03] EMILY: Yes. Yeah. And I also just like John Green as a person, too. He seems very relatable to me. And so maybe that's why it's like I kind of felt like I was reading the inside thoughts of a person I just enjoy knowing, his public persona obviously, but I think I just like that part of it, too.

ANNE: Okay. That's good to hear. What did you choose for your third favorite?

EMILY: This is kind of more of a collection of nonfiction essays that's like, I would call memoir, like a memoir in essays. And it's This Is the Story of a Happy Marriage by Ann Patchett. They're all previously published, or they are addresses or speeches that she gave. So previously published in like The Washington Post or Vogue and other outlets.

[00:27:58] I'll just touch on two of the essays. One of them is The Getaway Car. This one is like part writing advice and part really... Like if you're somebody who likes to know about wonderful authors like Ann Patchett, you get a lot of juicy tidbits of what her life was like before she was Ann Patchett, capital Ann Patchett.

And the way she describes the whole idea of like you have this wonderful idea for a novel in your head, and it's just so perfect, and it's the greatest work of literature, and then getting it on paper is like impossible. And so I love that. And David Sedaris, if you can take a compliment from David Sedaris, says that this was the best essay he's ever read about writing, which I thought was pretty high praise coming from him.

ANNE: Whoa.

[00:28:55] EMILY: Yes, it was wonderful. And then the title essay, which is called This Is the Story of a Happy Marriage, it actually begins by telling a lot about divorce and how her parents' divorce and her first marriage kind of falling apart. And it's done in a way that is respectful. It's not like a big rant. It's very interesting to follow along the story.

And then she basically ends with she was in kind of like a long-term boyfriend situation who also had gone through a divorce, and then they were there together for 11 years, and they end up getting married based on the fact that he had some kind of medical emergency, and she had to go fly and see him, and it was a whiteout snowstorm, and it was very cinematic and romantic. And then you're like, "You know, this is how this happy marriage kind of began."

[00:29:54] Then also throughout the essay collection, she touches on this relationship with her current husband, Karl, and you kind of... You don't get just the beginning of the marriage. You also get how you get there in the other essays that are in the collection.

I just found them really well written, but they also kind of flow together even though they were written totally separately for different magazines. I think also people who liked Ruth Reichl's Save Me the Plums, and the reason is because it reminds you of the time when magazines were king. These gorgeous magazines. There's an essay in there of her writing for Gourmet. And I love magazines. I wish magazines would come back in a big way, but we might be past that. But if you are somebody who liked Save Me the Plums, I think you'll definitely like this one as well.

[00:30:53] ANNE: Okay. Well, that's an interesting comparison, and now I want to reread both books. Emily, would you now tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you? And I'd love to hear what it was that didn't work.

EMILY: Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert. This is a collection of essays on... It's kind of like looking back at the '90s and 2000s, and feminism of that era, and kind of looking back essentially like, "Hey, maybe we weren't so good to women back then," is kind of the gist.

It's a wonderful book for nostalgia, especially the way she talks about the comedies of the early 2000s, and the way she kind of talks about women and feminism and the way they were treated. If you like culture discussions, those parts are done really well. But I didn't feel like this author had... I don't know. I struggled with knowing, "Okay, what did she come here to say? And what does that mean about our current situation?"

[00:32:08] I think the essays that I like both touch on a theme that's interesting, but they also bring it forward to like, okay, well, why now? Why are you writing this now? I think that's important when I'm reading a good essay, especially when it's about an idea that's not a personal essay. It's an essay about big ideas. I want to know, well, how does that reflect on my life and how I think about things? So I think that it was kind of missing a thesis, I guess.

ANNE: Okay. Do you happen to know if you like that in your short stories as well?

EMILY: Like the author came here to say something?

ANNE: Yeah.

EMILY: I think so, yeah.

ANNE: Okay.

EMILY: I like to try to figure out, like, okay, what is this author trying to do?

ANNE: Ooh.

[00:33:02] EMILY: And I guess that could encompass what are they trying to say about the larger world, or even just about these characters. Like, what are we trying to represent here?

ANNE: That's helpful. Emily, what have you been reading lately?

EMILY: Lately I read a great collection called Doppelganger: A Trip into the Mirror World by Naomi Klein. This is kind of another look back at the pandemic, and it's like part cultural criticism, part memoir, where Naomi Klein was confused with another famous Naomi, and that may have caused some consternation in her life.

I really liked the author. She describes the mirror world. I found it useful to think of that idea as developing empathy for whatever I'm railing against right now. There's somebody on the other side of that mirror who is railing against the same thing, but from the other direction. And I feel like reading these essays that were really well-written and also interesting and definitely a topic for our time, it helped me kind of develop that empathy for the other side of the mirror.

[00:34:16] ANNE: Okay, that's very interesting. So, Emily, you loved The History of Sound, the short story collection by Ben Shattuck, The Anthropocene Reviewed by John Green, and This Is the Story of a Happy Marriage by Ann Patchett. Not for you was Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert, and lately you've been reading Doppelganger by Naomi Klein.

Emily, we are finding options, short stories, and essay collections for your Short Summer project, a short story or essay every day over summer break, and you want to discover great stuff but also prioritize daily reading on the page. You mentioned in your submission, too, that you are hoping these short bursts of reading will be a much more satisfying substitute for social media. I imagine you're not the only one thinking along those lines right now.

[00:35:05] EMILY: Yes, I would like to go back to the days where I spent my time reading with books on the page, because that's actually something that probably, I would say, when I got into social media more is probably when I stopped reading on the page more. Now that I think about it, I'm realizing this in real time, if you can tell.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that sounds like an important observation. I mean, there's so much that you could possibly read, and we both know you are well aware of that. But something I really have in mind is what you said in your submissions, that you like short stories that leave you breathless. In your submission you said, like, the ending of Passing by Nella Larsen, or Joyce Carol Oates' Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been? And also essays that make you think about them long after you finish them, like These Precious Days by Ann Patchett.

So I think I have an idea of what kind of reading experience you're going for there, but do you want to say more about that? I mean, how am I capturing it, like mirroring it back to you? Am I getting it right?

[00:36:13] EMILY: Absolutely. I think that the most satisfying part about reading a short story that does leave you in that "oh my gosh" moment is just that it... like I said before, it's like the story just keeps going on even though it's done, and I can still experience it even after I'm done reading.

ANNE: And also maybe that it still matters?

EMILY: Perfect. It still matters, yes. And at the end of a good essay, it still matters. Yes.

ANNE: We are not going to load up your TBR with 30 different titles today, but we always invite readers, request, beg readers to send in ideas for further books that you or readers who really resonate with what you're saying that you will enjoy, may enjoy reading next, and to go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and comment in show notes, or sometimes people tell us on Instagram.

[00:37:10] So with that in mind, I'm going to share that you said in your submission that you love essays that take a specific thing that happened to the author and manage to make it universal. You love commentary on culture or investigative journalism, pop culture, literary criticism, true crime, politics, and many more fields.

And you love obscure micro histories of something like... you tossed out bananas in your submission. So readers, I'm just going to get us started today, but I'm sure you have so many more ideas. Bring 'em. We want to hear 'em. Can we jump in?

EMILY: Yes, let's go for it.

ANNE: First, I want to give you two resources. The first is Episode 452 of What Should I Read Next? with our guest, Jessica Crockett. It's called Get a Little Taste of a Lot of Good Stuff, and it aired in fall of 2024, but you could listen right now. It's evergreen. She wanted to talk about short stories and exploring more short stories, and we talked about all kinds of collections and standalones that she may enjoy reading next.

[00:38:11] So I recommend listening to the episode, but also you can go straight to the show notes and you can see the full list of titles we talked about. So even without listening, that's a good resource for those interested in exploring more. Now, that is short story specific, not essays.

We also did a Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club. We called it our own curated short story collection in 2024, and we listed a bunch of short stories for our readers. I'll share that link in... I'll share it with you, Emily, and I'll share it in show notes for those who are members. But I'll just toss off a few. We shared a George Saunders story, a Jhumpa Lahiri story, Weike Wang, Joanne Harris, Deesha Philyaw, and we shared The Pedestrian by Ray Bradbury. I think he could be such a good classic author for you to explore, but we can say more about that in a moment.

[00:39:04] Emily, I'm definitely keeping in mind the idea that you want a story that leaves you breathless. I'm imagining that something that could look like is there being a change in perspective or understanding at the very end that makes you go, "What? What just happened?" Like maybe sends you back to the beginning, or something that makes you think, "Oh, I was sure it was going this one place, and I realized I didn't understand anything at all."

EMILY: Yes, exactly. I love a story that does that.

ANNE: Okay. In that case, I'd like to surface a crime collection, or how about a short story collection by a crime fiction author, Laura Lippman, for you called Seasonal Work. Is this one you know?

EMILY: No, not at all.

ANNE: Okay. Well, it came out maybe peak pandemic. It came out a few years back. But she is a well-known Baltimore area crime writer who is prolific. She has published a book a year as long as I've been paying attention to her work for 10 or 15 years now.

[00:40:05] And some of these stories have been previously published. Some were written specifically for the collection. So, as she was pulling these together with her editor, she said that really the stories fell into three different buckets. There's a section about Baltimore, and also, if you're a longtime reader of Laura Lippman, she has written a Baltimore PI protagonist named Tess Monaghan in multiple books.

So there's a section about Baltimore and Tess. There's a bunch of stories about girls and a bunch of stories about infidelity, which she calls the old crime staple. And she especially liked that the stories about infidelity addressed every point on the triangle: the unknowing other woman, the betrayed spouse, and also the cheating spouse, and there were some fun dynamics there.

[00:40:53] Something else I like about her is that she's very conscious of something that I heard you hint at, that novels may be easier, but short stories feel like a high-wire act, and you really have to deliver in less than 20,000 words, or for some of her stories, less than 5,000.

But she is so good at portraying what seems like an ordinary domestic kind of tale and turning it into something, to satisfied readers, deliciously dark and pleasantly off-kilter just in the course of a couple of sentences. These are tightly written on an individual level. They are all very varied, but hang together really nicely as a collection.

The beginning story, "Seasonal Work," is based on something she saw as a journalist when she was new in the field, and she said it was never proven that what she thought she was seeing was actually what she was seeing, but she believes it to this day.

[00:41:49] But it's about a family on the take posing as holiday helpers. It starts with this heartwarming scene that becomes something else, all narrated by one of the kids who's involved. How is this collection sounding to you?

EMILY: It's perfect. I love crime fiction anyway, and this would be a new author to me even, and it sounds great.

ANNE: Okay. I am glad to hear it. Now, I don't know if this is good news, bad news, or just news, but this collection is really great on audio. It has a full cast of narrators, but they have definitely chosen who will narrate each story with care. And if you want to mix it up, or... You know what? You can make the call, but it's been found to be really satisfying on audio for many readers.

EMILY: It's good to know, because my new favorite thing is to listen on audio while I'm reading on the page.

[00:42:48] ANNE: So you can have the experience of the audio, but also gain those benefits — I mean, this does sound like school, but I guess you were an English major — of doing the deep work of reading and writing and marking up?

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. I love that for you. More stories with a little bit of a twist. I love So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan for you. Have you read anything by Claire Keegan?

EMILY: No.

ANNE: Okay. She's an Irish writer working now who really, I think, blew up on this side of the Atlantic with Small Things Like These, and her short story collection, Foster, that was packaged as a short little novella with an intro.

So both are so worth your time. Foster is a short story. Small Things Like These is a novella. But she's widely admired for being just one of the best writers working today. I loved Foster personally. I mean, I love all her work. I love her work. So I read Small Things Like These, and then I read Foster, and then I came to So Late in the Day and was expecting bittersweet, heartfelt, moving... Somehow her stories are bracing and gentle at the same time.

EMILY: Mm.

[00:44:01] ANNE: But then I read this collection, So Late in the Day, which is different. It's more like, "Gasp, what just happened? Oh, my." I didn't know Claire Keegan got dark, but this story collection gets dark.

The subtitle of this book is something like Stories of Men and Women. It might actually be, importantly, Women and Men. And there are three stories in this collection. One was published 25 years ago. The others are much more recent, and they've been curated and expanded with the way that they were chosen to be together in this collection and talk to each other.

But these characters are very flawed. I feel like everyone starts out a little bit domestically, but you see... I don't know. I thought I was seeing ordinary people in ordinary moments, but they don't work out that way. And what we end up with is women in extraordinary situations, sometimes perilous situations. I feel Claire Keegan kind of giggling as she's writing these and winking at the reader as they're going along.

Emily, is this sounding good at all?

EMILY: It sounds so good.

[00:45:15] ANNE: Okay. Then I won't overthink it too much.

EMILY: You've chosen all of my favorite things: winking at the reader, an author who maybe laughs at her own jokes while she's writing them. That's what I was imagining. Bracing and gentle. All of the adjectives were right up my alley.

ANNE: Okay. I am glad to hear it. Also, you need some essay collections. And you said that you love to read something kind of peculiar and unexpected, like a detailed history of the banana?

EMILY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: I understand that wasn't specifically about bananas, but it did make me think of a book by Aimee Nezhukumatathil called World of Wonders. The subtitle will help you know what to expect. It's In Praise of Fireflies, Whale Sharks, and Other Astonishments.

She narrates her own audiobook, and it's fabulous. I should have told you, if there is an audiobook of So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan, I would listen to that in a heartbeat because she's Irish, and I want that accent in my ear, but I have zero personal experience with that. But I have listened to Aimee Nezhukumatathil before, and I love her voice.

[00:46:23] She's a poet writing nonfiction, as she's done with a couple of collections. And what I love about poets writing prose is I just feel like their gift is choosing the exact right words that fall in the exact right order, even when they're writing normal sentences with normal punctuation.

But this is a little bit personal storytelling, memoir-ish, and a whole lot of what she's learned from and observed in the natural world. She's really reveling and viewing the world with wonder and curiosity as she calls you to look at insects that you have or maybe haven't heard of, probably haven't if you're me, and plants, and her own experience just growing up as a kid and now a woman who loved nature and who saw a lot of varied nature as her family moved many times from Kansas to Arizona and then east to New York and Ohio.

[00:47:25] It's great on audio, but if you read the book with your eyes, there are illustrations that are just really lovely and gorgeous and may add to your, I don't know, your like, "Oh," experience of what you're reading. So I think this would be really fascinating, interesting, and also inspiring and calming and grounding. How is this sounding to you?

EMILY: It sounds wonderful. You know, the poets do have a way with words. It's like when a poet writes a novel, you know? You're just like, "Where did you come up with this?" So that definitely appeals to me.

ANNE: Well, I love that, and I'm glad to hear it. Let's go to West Virginia. The book I'm thinking of is actually in this year's Summer Reading Guide. It's Small Town Girls: A Writer's Memoir by Jayne Anne Phillips. Do you know her? She won the Pulitzer in 2024 with Night Watch, but this new release is a memoir in essays that all... I mean, they hang together, but they totally stand alone. I don't believe you would need to read them in order.

[00:48:35] But in it, she's exploring how her West Virginia upbringing, and specifically the small, specific West Virginia hometown she grew up in, shaped her way of seeing the world, her career, her friendships, her entire life. Do you know her?

EMILY: I don't.

ANNE: Well, I like this one for you because it is very extremely uniquely specific, and she goes in... I mean, I imagine she knows. Some people know West Virginia really well. Some people reading this are probably from her hometown, but many of us just don't have a clue. And she knows that she is sharing a unique, otherwise inaccessible experience with... I mean, even I'm practically next door in Kentucky, and I don't know anything about West Virginia.

But when you said that you like books that make the highly specific feel universal, she's amazing at saying, "Look close. Let me tell you what it's like," and then describing an emotional experience that feels so universally human. Or she describes things in such a way where something that I otherwise would've known nothing about, I can look closely and compassionately at.

[00:49:52] So maybe she's describing the legendary Hatfield and McCoy feud, where many people, I think, just know that it's a thing, but she really gets into the details in a way that humanizes the players, and also makes you see how it's relevant a long time ago and relevant today, and why it's a big deal, and what it means. And you're reading about the Hatfields and McCoys, but you know some of those emotions, and you can see them playing out in many places, not just West Virginia.

But she leaves West Virginia, too. She describes writers that she loves that have influenced her greatly, but she also describes things like being sent to a western Kentucky funeral in 1997 because her New York editor was like, "You're from Middle America. It's all the same, right? West Virginia, western Kentucky. Go sit at this girl's funeral," who was murdered in a school shooting that happened in Paducah, Kentucky, in 1997. And she's writing about one specific thing. But what she's writing about is about the broader human experience.

[00:50:52] And these essays are on a theme. And while they're all very friendly with each other and feel like they belong in this collection, they're not strongly linked. So it would be easy to read this book slowly, one essay at a time. You could jump around. You could turn to what interests you most first. She reads her own audio. It's good in that format, if that is useful information. How's this sounding?

EMILY: It sounds wonderful. The last story you talked about, I also listen to Pantsuit Politics, and I know that Sarah Stewart Holland, I think that might have been the shooting she was part of at her high school or... So this is a definite yes.

ANNE: Yes. That's the one. Well, I'm glad to hear you might find that interesting. I feel like I've said Secret Lives of Church Ladies by Deesha Philyaw so many times on this podcast, but it remains a really interesting pick that is so good on audio, and one that I have recommended fervently, and it feels like nonstop for going on six years now.

[00:51:55] Love Jhumpa Lahiri, especially Interpreter of Maladies. I think Ray Bradbury writes a lot of stories where you have no idea what's happening. You think you know what's happening, you're pretty sure you know what's happening, and then at the very end, he's like, "Oh, this is going to be fun when they read my closing paragraphs." I think you may really enjoy his style if you've not read him.

Toni Morrison has only written one short story, but I think you may enjoy it. That's called Recitatif. And then Hanif Abdurraqib wrote a really interesting, engaging, fantastic on audio, he reads it himself, collection called They Can't Kill Us Until They Kill Us, where he writes about specific songs or musical experiences, but then takes that one specific thing and turns it into the universally human. I think you may enjoy seeing that done with music. Flannery O'Connor is another classic where you get to the end and go, "Wait, what?" Anything jumping out at you here? Is this the kind of variety you're looking for?

[00:52:56] EMILY: Absolutely. I already have The Secret Lives of Church Ladies on my TBR, so that one will definitely get read this summer for sure. I've kind of danced around Ray Bradbury, but never picked any of them up, and so I think that will definitely be on my list, too.

ANNE: He'd be great to take just a little taste of. I mean, it'd be easy to Google Ray Bradbury stories I can read right now, so you can hold it in your hand. You could print off a short story that's available on the internet, and then you could get yourself a collection that you can highlight the bits, if you enjoy what you read a sampling of.

EMILY: Yes, definitely.

ANNE: All right. Emily, I really enjoyed our explorations today. How are you feeling about your project?

EMILY: Oh, I'm feeling very excited, like I have a direction to go in, definitely some new authors that I hadn't considered before. This is great.

[00:53:50] ANNE: All right. Well, I am delighted to hear it. Now, we talked about a lot of potentials, but the ones we really honed in on were Seasonal Work by Laura Lippman, So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan, World of Wonders by Aimee Nezhukumatathil, and we ended with Small Town Girls by Jayne Anne Phillips. Of those books, what's really jumping out at you? What do you think you might read next in your project?

EMILY: I think I'm going to go for the crime fiction with Seasonal Work. That one sounds like a good place to start.

ANNE: All right. I'm happy to hear it. I hope it's a fit, but regardless, I hope you learn something really interesting about yourself and your reading life with it.

EMILY: Thank you so much.

ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Emily, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next for her short summer. Find Emily on Substack and find the full list of titles we talked about today. We have all those links at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[00:54:45] Follow our show on Instagram at @WhatShouldIReadNext to keep up with summer reading updates and what's new at What Should I Read Next HQ.

Please make sure you're following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and more. You'll get each week's new episode right in your feed, and you'll send a signal to the podcast networks that you appreciate what we do and want to keep hearing from us.

Make sure you're on our email list. It's the best way to keep up with all our news and happenings. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• In Her Shoes by Jennifer Weiner
• Five Tuesdays in Winter by Lily King 
The History of Sound by Ben Shattuck
The Anthropocene Reviewed by John Green
This is a Story of a Happy Marriage by Ann Patchett
• Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl
▵ Girl on Girl: How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women Against Themselves by Sophie Gilbert
• Doppelganger by Naomi Klein 
• Passing by Nella Larsen
• Seasonal Work by Laura Lippman (Audio edition)
• So Late in the Day by Claire Keegan
• Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan
• Foster by Claire Keegan
• World of Wonders by Aimee Nezhukumatathil (Audio edition)
• Small Town Girls by Jayne Anne Phillips
• Night Watch by Jayne Anne Phillips

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• WSIRN Ep. 452: Get a little taste of a lot of good stuff
• MMD Book Club Short Stories Collection 
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The post A short summer project to rebuild reading stamina appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Our Summer Reading Guide is a big deal around here, and every year I’m eager to remind readers that it’s not a list of books you should read, it’s a list of books you could read. Today’s guest knows that reading is personal, and that’s why she’s here to get my help figuring out which titles from the 2026 Guide she should prioritize for her desired summer reading vibe.

Ashley Cornelius lives in Santa Barbara with her family, where she’s a high school science teacher. Ashley reached out to tell me about the books she’s loved and one she didn’t from past Summer Reading Guides, and wondered if I could help her select books from this year’s Guide. I couldn’t wait to have that conversation and help Ashley decide what to read next. But today I’m also walking you through the thought process of considering what to read next in light of what you already know about your reading life. I hope after listening, you’ll feel even more empowered to choose your next summer read.

Please share your ideas for Ashley by leaving a comment below.

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: So you don't know what the books are.

ASHLEY CORNELIUS: Yeah.

ANNE: I'm going to tell you three books today, and I'll be so curious to see if stuff jumps out at you from the Summer Reading Guide that just would not have occurred to me based on our conversation.

ASHLEY: Yeah, that'll be really interesting. I'm very excited about having books to keep an ear out when we're listening or watching.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:53] Readers, our Summer Reading Guide is a big deal around here. Although every year I'm eager to remind readers that it's not a list of books you should read, it's a list of books you could read. And my hope is that in the guide I give you the information you need to choose titles that will have you feeling oh so very satisfied with how you choose to spend your precious reading time this season. Today's guest knows that reading is personal, and that's why she's here to get my help figuring out which titles from the 2026 guide she should prioritize.

Ashley Cornelius lives in Santa Barbara with her family, where she's a high school science teacher. She loves to talk books with friends, no surprise there, but she's also into sewing, crocheting, and working in her garden. Ashley reached out to tell me about the books she's loved and one she didn't from past Summer Reading Guides, and wondered if I could help her select books from this year's guide that might fit her desired summer vibe. Would I ever.

[00:01:49] Today, I'm helping one particular reader decide what to read next. But more than that, I'm walking you through the thought process of considering what to read next in light of what you already know about your reading life. I hope after listening, you'll feel even more empowered to choose your next summer read. Let's get to it.

Ashley, welcome to the show.

ASHLEY: Hi, thanks for having me.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. We were so excited to get your very timely submission in our inbox. Readers, we don't usually talk extremely specifically about recording dates because it doesn't matter, but today it does. Ashley and I are talking on Tuesday, May 12th, which is significant because the Summer Reading Guide comes out in almost exactly 48 hours on Thursday, May 14th, and Ashley's submission was Summer Reading Guide-specific.

So, Ashley, you haven't heard the guide yet, or read or any of it. I happen to know what's in it, and that's going to be important as we talk about your summer reading today. But thanks for bringing that query to the show. I'm excited to dig in.

[00:02:50] ASHLEY: Yeah. I'm happy to get more time with the Summer Reading Guide.

ANNE: And early.

ASHLEY: Yes, very.

ANNE: All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Would you start by just giving our readers a glimpse of who you are? Tell us a little about yourself.

ASHLEY: Yeah. So, I live in Santa Barbara with my husband and my teen son, and we have two dogs. And we're very excited because we're going to go pick up my daughter from her first year of college this weekend, so we'll-

ANNE: Oh, congrats.

ASHLEY: Yeah, we'll be back to our full family. It'll be really fun. I teach high school science, and I do a lot of work with my teachers' union, so that's where most of my time goes. And then in my outside of work time is with my church and I do a lot of crafty things like sewing and crocheting and working in my garden.

And then this last year I've been really enjoying doing some ocean swimming with a few of my friends. Also, people would probably just not even recognize me unless I mentioned that my family, my little family of four, we are passionate Chicago Bears fans, and so I'm always looking forward to football season. It's kind of like the one fun end-of-summer thing that happens.

[00:04:07] ANNE: Oh, I love that for you. And I didn't expect that from Santa Barbara.

ASHLEY: Yes. Anytime we see somebody else with Chicago Bears gear, it is like we get a little head nod and... a little community.

Annie: I love that for you. Now, Ashley, would you tell us a little about your reading life?

ASHLEY: I grew up in a household full of books. My parents are big readers, and so my younger life was a lot of The Baby-sitters Club and Sweet Valley Twins. And then after I kind of graduated from that, most of my reading was shaped by what my parents had on their bookshelves. So I read a lot of Sue Grafton and Tony Hillerman, and then some fantasy with Anne McCaffrey, and The Lord of the Rings, of course.

Then after college, I kind of just read the same 40 books over and over again. I had my collection, and so I had some John Grisham and Tom Clancy and Da Vinci. Those are ones that I just rotate throughout the year, just kind of pick up the book that I was in the mood for.

[00:05:13] I was not very confident about picking up new books. I would go to the library and basically just pick out the same authors that I already knew that I liked. But then about 10 years ago, first my kids started reading chapter books, and so I had a lot of fun just, you know, reading them for them, but really it was for me, and I just got to experience more of the middle-grade books, which was really fun.

And then my friend at work started a book club, and I started listening to both the Read-Aloud Revival for book recommendations for my kids, and What Should I Read Next? for myself. I also, in the last couple years, kind of co-host a really casual book talk group at my work. With all of those combined, now I'm just filled with new books to read, and just have, yeah, just a full list of books. And then I just kind of have to force myself to reread books because I still love that, but I have so many new ones to try.

[00:06:14] ANNE: So you didn't come to reading as an adult, but it sounds like you had a major change in your reading life as an adult.

ASHLEY: Yes, exactly. Well, really, I think it was just a growing confidence in hearing other people's recommendations and being able to figure out what I thought would be a good fit for me. And I do, fortunately, love a really big variety of fiction. So, like, I will read science fiction and fantasy and romance. Although, it's interesting to me that romantasy doesn't always really connect with me, which seems weird when I like both of them separately, and then sometimes when they're together, they're not my favorite. And realistic fiction with, you know, family drama. So, I think having that big variety and just getting new recommendations from lots of different sources has really expanded what I get to read every year.

ANNE: Well, I'm so glad to hear it. Thanks for telling us about that. Ashley, what brings you to the show today?

[00:07:16] ASHLEY: Well, I just love the Summer Reading Guide. I love the whole experience. I have some friends that will get together and watch it. So-

ANNE: That's fun.

ASHLEY: Yeah, and then we'll talk about it. We'll try to get up, meet together in the middle of the summer and find out which books we really recommend to each other, and then I'll just listen to all of the podcasts that are, like, the behind-the-scenes or when your team is talking about books from the Summer Reading Guide. I don't know, I just love it. I think part of it is just the ritual of a summer for me, and a summer break from work. And so being able to connect fun reading into that.

So when I heard that it was time for the new Summer Reading Guide to come out, I was like, "I'm just going to go back and look at all of the books that I have in my old printed copies of the Summer Reading Guide, and I'm just going to do it. I'm going to treat myself for this day, and I'm going to fill out the application and see what happens."

[00:08:16] ANNE: Well, thanks for doing that. Would you tell me more about watching the Summer Reading Guide Unboxing with friends? I know people do this, and also, I would love to hear the details, because I'm doing something else at that moment in time. But I'd love to hear what you do.

ASHLEY: We've done it a few years now. I think the first time, maybe I took the day off of work and we did the morning version together live. And we, you know, just bring some tasty snacks together, and fun... coffee drinks, and just take notes while it's happening, and then we talked about it after.

The last couple years we haven't been able to watch it live, which means that then we watch it together, the recording, and then we pause it after every section and talk about every section. So, basically, double the time that we spend talking about books in the Summer Reading Guide. It's really fun having a group that we know each other's reading tastes now, and we know what we like from the Summer Reading Guide, so we know which overlapping books that we think we'll like between the three of us.

[00:09:21] ANNE: Well, thank you for telling me about that. Today, when we talk about the books you love and the ones you don't, would you tell us how you chose these?

ASHLEY: Yeah. This was another kind of fun thing is I just dug through my house to find all of the printed reading guides that I had saved. I could find the reading guides from '22, '23, '24, and '25, and I just started flipping through, looking for the ones that stood out to me, that have lasted over time. And I kinda decided that the last year's Summer Reading Guide was maybe too new, and it'd be more fun to stick to the ones that really have stood the test of time in my memory.

And so I stuck to the older ones. Well, and I also picked the books that were specific... that I only read because they were in the Summer Reading Guide. When I was flipping through, I did see other books that I loved, but either I read them later in the year or they just were books that I read mostly because another friend had recommended them. So they were all definitely books from the Summer Reading Guide.

[00:10:34] ANNE: Okay. And the question is, what should you read this year?

ASHLEY: Yes. When I'm listening to the Unboxing guide, I try to get it down to like 10 books for the summer. But of course, there's always the fear of missing out. Like, am I missing out another book that would really be the best one? And also, just, you know, can't read them all, so you're trying to get it down to those top 10. Getting your input will be really fun.

ANNE: Oh, this is so interesting. Okay, so you don't know what the books are.

ASHLEY: Yeah.

ANNE: I'm going to tell you three books today, and I'll be so curious to see if stuff jumps out at you from the Summer Reading Guide that just would not have occurred to me based on our conversation.

ASHLEY: Yeah, that'll be really interesting. I'm very excited about having books to keep an ear out when we're listening or watching.

[00:11:24] ANNE: Well, I'm looking forward to seeing where your summer takes you. But first, let's talk about the books you love. You chose these because you love them from the Summer Reading Guide. What did you know you were looking for? Like, what makes a really standout reading experience for you?

ASHLEY: So during the summer, I definitely have a vibe is the... It's nice to have that word to be able to use. But I definitely have a strong vibe that I want for the summer, which is generally I don't want to be crying the whole book. I have a very low threshold for crying. Like, I will cry pretty easily in any book or movie, and I don't want to be crying the whole way through.

But when I was looking at these books, a moment of sadness and intense emotion turns out to be something that really makes something more memorable for me and stick with me. But I do like the lighter... And anything also that connects just to summer camp or places that I travel for the summer, those are things that just bring me into what I guess I call just a summer mindset of being on break or vacation.

[00:12:29] ANNE: Okay, that sounds lovely. We'll see if I get lucky with choosing locales that you maybe have traveled to or want to. Ashley, are we ready to jump into the books you love?

ASHLEY: Yeah, let's do this.

ANNE: What's the first one you chose?

ASHLEY: So the first one is The River by Peter Heller. I actually find this super interesting because I was just flipping through the summer 2022 reading guide and saw The River, and I was like, "Oh, that has to be it." But it wasn't until I was setting stuff up last night that I realized that I had actually read it in the summer of 2019. And I think I really got it just from the minimalist guide from that year.

And then I think you just had put in a few, like, older books into the 2022 Summer Reading Guide. So it was there. And I even had a note on it saying, "Oh, I loved this one," but I didn't catch it until last night, so I really read it earlier.

[00:13:28] So in The River by Peter Heller, two college friends are spending a few weeks in a very remote river trip, and starting with this fast-moving wildfire, their trip takes this dramatic turn from this peaceful time on the river and outdoors to this survival mode.

I just loved this book because of the gorgeous descriptions of their life on the river. I just felt like I was there with them. I have spent over 30 years of my life going to Southern Oregon to visit family, and we always spent a day or an evening or both on the river. And so reading his descriptions of the river, and even though I'm not a fisher, like his descriptions of how they were fishing just pulled me into that world and reminded me of what I love about being in nature, specifically on a river.

[00:14:25] I also really loved the relationship between the two friends. This book I find is a really good example of the right amount of sadness for me. While I really tend towards the lighter books over the summer, The River does have this really sad moment in it. I saw in my notes, I was like, "I wasn't really happy with the way it ended." But it still stuck with me. The sad moment didn't feel gratuitous. It really made me think about the book for a lot longer than I would've if it had been a super happy, peaceful ending.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad this worked for you. It sounds like this was the right book for you, and also, am I hearing elements that made it a good summer read? Because I think you said in your submission that a certain amount of sadness doesn't necessarily mean you won't read it, but it's definitely going to get kicked into fall.

[00:15:17] ASHLEY: Yeah. When I was flipping through, I saw Crying in H Mart, and I had a big note on it, "Save for fall." And sure enough, I did. I read it in the fall, and a bunch of my work colleagues also read it, and I mean, it was just a wonderful book, and I loved it, but I was like, "I am not reading that over the summer." So if it's really going to deal with themes of grief or trauma, that is not going to be a summer book for me. But if it's going to take me into a world, then it is going to be more meaningful, and it's going to stick with me more than the perfect... where nothing happens. Like you want stuff to happen.

ANNE: Okay. But The River was the right amount of adventure, tension, intrigue, mystery, happenings.

ASHLEY: Yeah. I want a book that, in the summer, that I'm just going to be like, "I can just sit here for a couple hours and read or stay up late at night reading because I want to know what happens." It's definitely a sign it's a good summer book for me.

[00:16:23] ANNE: That's very helpful. Thank you. Ashley, what's the second book you love?

ASHLEY: Then from the 2023 Summer Reading Guide, I picked The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty. This story starts with Amina al-Sirafi. She's a former pirate, which former... I don't know. Any kind of adventure story, I'm like, I'm in on that. She's laying low in a remote home with her 10-year-old daughter when she's approached by a woman who is really begging her and bribing her to come find her granddaughter, who has been supposedly kidnapped. And so Amina al-Sirafi gathers her loyal partners. She has to rescue her ship and crew to take off and rescue the missing granddaughter.

I love a quirky team gathering together for any kind of mission or adventure. This book is really sweet because, even though they haven't seen each other in many years, their friendship and their support of Amina I thought was really beautiful and fun.

[00:17:31] I also love seeing a female character who's a mother. The fact that Amina is torn between her love of her work on the sea, which is funny to call it work because she's a pirate, but she's missing her daughter and wants to be with her daughter, but also wants to show her this good example of what it means to be able to do something, work that you love. I just thought that really elevated this beyond just a typical adventure story for me.

Amina is also a little bit older. She has a difficulty with a bad knee, which I relate to. I listened to this one on audio. I really felt like the voice actor did a fabulous job of bringing this character to life. This is something I noticed. I just re-listened to it because a new one, or the second one is coming out soon. One thing that I really loved is that there was just the perfectly placed cuss words. I just thought it was so fun when they would just pop in at just the right moment to give an idea of how she was feeling in stressful situations.

[00:18:37] ANNE: I'm so glad you know about the new one, and that it's on your radar already. And that does come out today as we're speaking. It will already be in the world as readers listen to this. But that is The Tapestry of Fate, when Amina is called once again to the sea, and she has to find this ancient spindle that can unravel not just thread, yarn... what do spindles spin? But it can unravel time and re-spin it with a different result. And also her estranged husband is causing trouble and her family has wishes that aren't really in sync with hers, and she's gotta go figure it out.

Ashley, I remember you do about 25% of your listening, I think you said in your submission, of your reading, that is on audio. The first book was excellent on audio. It elevated the experience. And I've only listened to maybe half an hour of The Tapestry of Fate, but am already finding it so good in that format.

[00:19:37] ASHLEY: Oh, I'm so excited. I just did a subscription to Libro.fm mostly so that I could get that book on audio, so I'm really excited to hear that people are enjoying it.

ANNE: Well, I'm excited for you. It sounds like it'll go great with your crocheting and gardening, etc.

ASHLEY: Yes. Perfect.

ANNE: Ashley, what is the third book you love?

ASHLEY: So then from the 2024 Summer Reading Guide, I picked The God of the Woods by Liz Moore. This takes place at a summer camp on the East Coast, and a child has gone missing, and her brother also went missing 15 years before that.

So in order to figure out what happened to the girl, one detective is determined to find out what happened to the missing brother in order to really connect those two and figure out what's happening. I love the atmosphere of the camp, and again, the nature. I also really enjoyed the changing points of views in the chapters. That's something that I find I really enjoy in a book is when you get to know multiple characters from their point of view. And then also having both of those mysteries revealed throughout the book made it a really good page-turner for me.

[00:20:52] Another thing that I noticed when I picked out this book is that I think this is a good example of how I've used the summer book guide to find books that were amazing for me before they became really big. And so I've noticed that I'll read a book from the Summer Reading Guide with these expectations that it's just going to be a really good book for me. And then I've seen them blown up on, like, BookTok or other types of social media. And the second wave of readers reads them because other people liked them, and they might be disappointed that the book didn't match their expectation.

So I really enjoy finding the book through the reading guide and not just because everybody else liked it, because I have maybe the right level of expectation for it, and then I can just really enjoy it instead of comparing it to the hyped-up version that it becomes later.

ANNE: Ooh, I love that for you, and I love Liz Moore. I'm so glad you found this one. Have you read anything else by her?

[00:21:54] ASHLEY: I read Long Bright River. I had read that before separately and really didn't even connect. I'm not great at remembering authors, especially if there's been a long gap between them, or if I wasn't actively seeking another one. But I really enjoyed Long Bright River as well.

ANNE: Okay. I know we've talked about The Unseen World several times on the podcast. Recently I read Heft, so I know I talked about it on the blog. I can't remember if I talked about it in this space. But there's more Liz Moore waiting for you if that interests you. But neither of those books have the summer camp, wilderness mystery vibes that feel especially apt for the summer.

ASHLEY: Yeah, yeah.

ANNE: Ashley, now tell us about a book that was not right for you, and I love that you chose one from the Summer Reading Guide as well. What did you choose?

[00:22:41] ASHLEY: So this one is from the 2022 Summer Reading Guide, The Cartographers by Peng Shepherd. In this book, there's a map that appears to be this cheap gas station map that would have sold hundreds of copies, and the main character gets pulled into the mystery of why is somebody trying to purchase every single copy of this one specific map.

Her father, I believe, was a cartographer, and she is... And when her father dies early in the book, and she's pulled in this mystery of, like, what is happening with this map? I loved the premise of the story. There are some magical elements regarding the map. I really liked that.

But unfortunately, there's a twist at the end... and this was the first time that I had this reading experience, but I've had it happen a few other books. But there's this twist that reveals some parent-child dynamics that I just can't get over. I just can't enjoy the rest of the book knowing that this one thing happened.

[00:23:49] And unfortunately, you don't ever know because it's a twist and it's a surprise. And so you don't really know that it's going to happen until towards the end. But I just, you know, can't have the same level of enjoyment once that twist has happened.

ANNE: Hmm. Okay. Now, readers, Ashley and I talked about this twist privately, and we are going to avoid it for her in the Summer Reading Guide selections. But Ashley, I'd love to go back to what drew you to that book in the first place. What were you hoping for when you picked it up? Do you remember? I understand I'm asking you about something that happened quite a while ago at this point.

ASHLEY: Well, I think that the mystery of it is, like what's happening and kind of a bit of an adventure. I also like a modern-day... Like, it was taking place kind of in current times, but also has this little element of magic. And if I'm remembering right also, I think she teams up with some people, the main character does, and of course, I love that. So it just seemed like it would be a really good fit for me from that description, that part of it.

[00:24:58] ANNE: Okay. It's helpful to hear what called out to you even as you found something that you maybe knew at the time you didn't like, or maybe that was a new discovery.

ASHLEY: It was a new discovery. That was the first time it happened to me.

ANNE: Okay. Has it changed how you read going forward, or does it just make you anxious?

ASHLEY: Well, usually what happens now, and it's only happened a couple other times after, but usually when I start to sense that that twist is about to happen, I just immediately start skimming and then I just finish the book as quick as I can. It usually happens so close to the end that I'll just finish the book, but I have a very grumpy attitude towards it after it's happened. But at least now I know why, and then I'll just kinda quickly read it so I know what happens.

[00:25:47] ANNE: I'm thinking aloud what this means for what you may enjoy reading this summer. And I'm just thinking about how different readers may view the responsibility of the author in what they reveal and what they withhold about characters and their stories. And I don't know, sometimes a big reveal feels dramatic and perfect, and sometimes it feels manipulative.

ASHLEY: Yes.

ANNE: I don't have a unified theory, but I'm going to be holding that idea in mind as we talk about your future reads.

ASHLEY: This might come up later in some of my recently read ones, but I will say that if I feel like a character has died purely to raise the drama of the situation and make it emotional rather than it being a natural part of the story, I get grumpy. And that is a very Kristin Hannah thing that I've noticed with her also. So there is a level of like I want to feel like the really sad events are critical to the story, a natural result of a character being real rather than just a "And now they're going to get killed so that you will feel very sad."

[00:27:05] ANNE: I will be holding that in my mind. Even as part of my mind is like, "But we don't know what's going to happen in life." Sometimes they... Yeah. But we do have control in novels, and yeah, hold- holding all that tension there. Ashley, what have you been reading lately?

ASHLEY: I recently read Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaghy. That one has a lot of drama and mystery when the woman is washed up on shore on this very remote island, and yeah, there's a lot of mystery about why she's there and what has happened with this family of caretakers on the island. Again, great nature scenes that I just loved. At the end, there's this very dramatic moment that I have would just want to talk to everybody about. But I did feel like in the end that it made the book better to have that type of ending.

And then I'm also a very big fan of Rainbow Rowell. I just recently read Cherry Baby, and that was a very fun reading experience.

[00:28:12] And then I also read What We Can Know by Ian McEwan, which the first part of it takes place... it's a character who is 150, 200 years in the future, and he's researching this event that happens with what would be our modern day, and he's trying to figure out what happened based... And he's using all of their social media and text messages, all the digital imprints that the people involved have left. And then the second part is that person that he's been researching, their perspective of what happened for this mysterious event.

It was super intriguing. I really loved reading it in terms of seeing this really new dynamic, but I don't think it's for everybody because it is a very slow-paced. The characters by the end are not very lovable. So I'm glad I read it, but I don't know if I'm going to recommend it to a lot of other people.

[00:29:12] ANNE: Okay, that's interesting to hear. Ashley, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

ASHLEY: Mostly it's all about setting up these fun reading experiences for the summer, because once I can close my classroom door and go into summer, I guess the way that I make it through all of the hard work that's going to happen for the last few weeks of school is having this set up, this expectation of all these fun things that I get to read and do over the summer. And so I'm really looking to have some books that I'm excited about reading, and also maybe setting up some kind of reading experiences or some kind of maybe retreat types of things that I can have organized and ready to go for the summer.

ANNE: Fun. Okay. Do you have any ideas? Because I know you said in your submission that you're looking for some how-to.

[00:30:12] ASHLEY: I'm not doing any big traveling this summer, and so I want to set up something where I'm just like, once a week I'm going to do this thing. But that's where I get fuzzy. But something that I'm getting either out of the house or meeting up with people and just reading in a different situation to make it a little bit more special, a little bit more of an escape from any chores and stuff that are around the house. But trying to set up these experiences over the summer, and I'm trying to navigate that. Like, what would that look like for me? What is a way that, one, that I won't make it so complicated that I never do it, because I tend to do this, where I really go crazy. I could do this and this and this, and then it's too much and I don't do it. So keeping it simple, but also unique to the summer.

ANNE: Okay, that sounds fun. I have ideas. First of all, if you are in or interested in the Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, for years now, we've done a Readers’ Weekend in July. These are 100% online, and we only gather online, with the exception of 2020, which was a sad year for in-person gatherings, and we just went hog wild with our virtual events that summer.

[00:31:30] But we usually only gather online for three to five hours over the course of a weekend, and you can choose to come to none or all of them. It just depends. But we also share sample schedules for how you could spend that time as a reader, and break down itineraries with hour by hour what you could choose to do. And sometimes people like a little structure. That's a weekend, but in the winter/spring, we've also had a Readers’ Day where we've shared a smaller sample schedule like the one we just did in February.

So that's a resource for anybody who wants it. You can log in and download that Readers’ Day kit that we just had in February. We'll be sharing the reader's weekend one not too far from now. That's coming up in July.

I know some readers like to take reading vacations or reader's getaways, where they'll get themselves an Airbnb, or go to the water or the mountains, or they'll book themselves into the local hotel with a really great pool, whatever that is for you. But just from a low-key kind of way, because I love reading, and I have never once done something like that for a reader's weekend or reader's getaway.

[00:32:41] Actually, if I haven't said yet today, the theme for this year's Summer Reading Guide is Reading Retreat. And we had a lot of fun staging retreat vibes and settings in my home with food, drink are really important, I think, to that situation, a comfy chair, nice places to sit, nice scenery out the window, like that matters, too. But just when I want to take a little break or do indulgent daytime activities or weekend stuff, something I love to do. This is going to sound so silly, but I'll go to a coffee shop that I love, like a local coffee shop that I love, even if it's not the closest one to my house, with the intention of getting two drinks. I will read until my coffee is gone, and I'll read a bit, little bit longer. But then there's something about knowing I'm going to stay there for the second cup of coffee or I'm going to switch to tea.

And readers, I have a less tenuous relationship with caffeine than I used to, but I gotta go someplace that serves decaf if I'm going to do this and not going to switch to herbal tea. But just the idea when I get there that I know I'm settling in for a long time just feels so luxurious.

[00:33:57] Or you could set up a progressive kind of situation where you know you're going to go to one coffee shop and then another, or you're going to go to coffee and then the place with the great lunch counter with the pretty view, or you're going to go to the botanical garden with the pretty bench or the park that you like, or you're going to go read by the water. Maybe you can do that easily in Santa Barbara. And then you're going to go to the... You can see how I'm constantly thinking of food in this kind of situation. But then you're going to go get some kind of nourishment or refreshment. You could even do this in such a way where you read by yourself and then you meet a friend, or you meet a friend and then you go read by yourself. And if that friend's a reader, you could structure that to involve either a book discussion or reading together.

Is any of this stuff pinging for you?

[00:34:42] ASHLEY: For sure. I think location is super important, and again, like the food thing, when I was reading Cherry Baby by Rainbow Rowell, I found some Cherry Coke in the fridge and I just sat outside watering, and it was just beautiful. The sun was setting, and I was drinking this Cherry Coke while I was reading it. Reading in a different location in my house even made a difference and made it just so like that, in that case, was just like a 30-minute retreat. So I think being deliberate about that with different locations, like you are describing, is exactly what I'm craving. And then I'm just inviting friends as it works easily instead of making it into a big function.

I did host a mini readers’ retreat at my house last summer, and it was really fun. We had two hours of just kind of silent reading and then lunch together and then another two hours. And people just came as they could to the day. And I really loved that. I loved hosting that experience. But what I really want is to not be responsible for all of that. So going to a coffee place or a cafe is probably more likely to happen this summer.

[00:36:00] ANNE: I hear that. I love that you brought up the Cherry Coke in the backyard. And it sounds like that's impulsive. That's wonderful. And also, there's something that can be really inviting and magical about planning in advance and putting something on your calendar that says, "At 2:00, I go sit in my chair and I read." And even if it's the chair you like in your house, but please, get yourself a drink or something. Just a little something that says, like, "I am doing this on purpose," and just, you know, be nice to yourself in the way you like. Take your shoes off, even if it's only for 20 minutes, if that makes you happy. But just not reading until the phone rings, but knowing, like, "This is a little bit of time I'm carving out for myself."

ASHLEY: Yeah.

ANNE: Whether that means blocking out a certain amount of time on the calendar. And a certain amount of time could really be 20 minutes. That would still be a little bit of time. Three hours would also be really fun, but to know that that time is set aside, that's the plan, you're going to enjoy it.

ASHLEY: Exactly, yeah.

[00:37:02] ANNE: Yeah. Okay, I love that that's the way you're thinking going into your summer break.

ASHLEY: Yeah, I'm excited. That's good.

ANNE: Ashley, you're also looking for books.

ASHLEY: Yes, books.

ANNE: Let's talk about what we've got here. You love The River by Peter Heller in the original 2019 Summer Reading Guide, The Adventures of Amina al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty from the 2023 guide, and The God of the Woods by Liz Moore in the 2024 guide.

Not for you was The Cartographers by Peng Shepherd from 2022, but you did learn something important about your reading life about relational dynamics and then the tension between exposition and reveal and what it means for characters in the story. We're going to be keeping that in mind as we recommend books today.

And you love to read all kinds of stuff, sci-fi, fantasy, romance, realistic fiction, some family dramas, adventure, nonfiction, which is usually memoirs, and 75% with your eyes.

[00:38:13] ASHLEY: That's me.

ANNE: Ashley, I'm going to tell you what I'm thinking. And readers, these are all books from the Summer Reading Guide that I talked about at Summer Reading Guide Unboxing, which you can watch any time now that it's out and available. And I'm going to share what I did in Unboxing, mostly, plus a little bit more about the book generally, and also how it relates specifically to Ashley.

And the one I want to start with is by Travis Mulhauser, whose debut, Sweet Girl, was critically acclaimed. He wrote a book a couple years ago called The Trouble Up North, also critically acclaimed, but I don't believe either book landed in the hands of a ton of readers. And I'm hoping his new one finds a wider audience. It's called Fair Chase. It was just published on April 28th by Grand Central. Is this an author or work you're familiar with?

ASHLEY: It is not.

[00:38:59] ANNE: Okay. I'm not sad to hear that, and I'm happy to make the introduction. I think this is a really good fit for readers who enjoy Peter Heller in general, but because of the content here, especially The Last Ranger. And also it feels a fair amount like Charlotte McConaghy. And part of that is like the moody, atmospheric broodiness, but part of that is this is a book about, not only about, but this is a book about a wolf.

It's set in the wilds of Northern Michigan. The story begins when a gray wolf is spotted in the area. It's the first time in 100 years a wolf has been seen in this part of Michigan. And this wolf is an endangered species, so it's exciting, but also it's a wolf, and people are scared, and a lot of it is because they don't understand what it means to live in the area with wolves. And I did so much Googling that was highly unnecessary, but also a lot of fun for me to learn more about wolves as I was reading.

[00:40:01] But people are scared for their pets and their livestock and their small children. And then there's also a lot of property development going on in the area, and developers are scared for different reasons. They know if the feds find out that there is an endangered species nearby, then because of the laws, construction will cease, they'll lose a ton of money. It's really important to them economically that that not happen.

So what they do is they hire a poacher to take out the wolf before anyone official can verify its presence. But our real main character here is, or how about the one that everybody else revolves around, is this 14-year-old foster kid, and his name is Delos. And he's seen the wolf himself, he is not scared of it. He is an advocate... Does it sound silly to say a 14-year-old is an advocate for nature? But his heart really goes out to this wolf, and also he knows how to use the situation to his advantage.

[00:40:59] And I'm not quite sure how to tell you succinctly what's going on in this book, but Delos is a foster kid, he doesn't have a family, but he's been telling everyone for years that he is a blood relative of this certain notorious local family called the Sawbrooks. And everyone respects them and is also a little bit afraid of them.

They've been in the region for 100 years. They're moonshiners. Their shine is notorious and coveted. They are swaggering badasses. And Delos, in part to protect himself and in part because he wants to belong to something bigger than himself, has been telling everybody, "I'm a Sawbrook. I'm related through my dead mama. Don't mess with me because they will have my back."

[00:41:45] What he explains to the reader is, "Look, it's not that I'm a liar exactly. It's just something I wanted to be true so badly." But what Delos knows about the Sawbrooks is they care about wild things, and they will care enough to try and protect the wolf. And if he's the one who brings this news to their door, like, who brings them this noble and important mission, that maybe they'll respect what he's doing, and maybe they'll protect him too. Maybe they'll take him in. Like, maybe they'll make good on the claims he's been making for a long time that they are connected in some deep way.

This book is like this tense, atmospheric story where things are in motion and the stakes are high, but also the writing is... Like, I remember reading out loud to my husband and teenage son sitting on the couch, like, "Listen to what this character is saying her daddy told her about getting a new car once in your life." Just on a sentence level, it's so delightful sometimes. But issues it's exploring are small-town politics, nature versus development, family, truth, loyalty.

[00:42:56] This is a loose follow-up to his 2025 book called The Trouble Up North, which introduces the Sawbrook family. But this new one, Fair Chase, it stands alone just fine. You can totally start there. How does that sound?

ASHLEY: I am so excited about this already. I've been to Yellowstone a few times, and just love every time I'm there. And one of the experiences is learning about the wolves, and maybe trying to catch a glimpse of the wolves. And on top of that, the science teacher side of me just loves the ecosystem-wolf dynamic, and what that means. Even from your description, I'm already growing attached to this kid and the wolf, so that just seems perfect for me.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. I have a book for you about an English teacher and a science teacher, if you're okay with it.

ASHLEY: Perfect, yes.

[00:43:54] ANNE: It's the new Laurie Frankel. It's called Enormous Wings. Do you know it? Are you familiar with it?

ASHLEY: No. No, I'm not.

ANNE: Okay. This is just out. I think it came out May 5th. And I was just in Nashville. I served as Laurie's conversation partner for her Nashville book tour stop, so I got to hear... I get to relay a little bit of her personal thoughts about this. That was a delight. She's still on tour, if anybody gets to go see her or has the opportunity, take it. It was a lot of fun. But I really enjoy her writing.

And what Laurie Frankel does is she writes these situations that are technically realistic, but just a little bit larger than life. It feels like reality, but with the volume and the plausibility factor just dialed way up. Or maybe it's the implausibility factor. Like, this is realistic, but ooh.

[00:44:47] And this is by far her most fanciful work yet, because it features the pregnancy of a 77-year-old woman. And I thought it was so interesting that the book actually does come up with an explanation that sounded like, eh, I mean, as far as it goes, that's a really good explanation to me for how this happened.

One of the things I asked her was, like, "Laurie, I was surprised there was a reason," and she's like, "I knew people were going to want to know. I had to throw them something."

But this is about a 77-year-old woman who becomes pregnant. Our protagonist is an English teacher, and I mean, she is an English teacher to her bones. The dialogue is so fun. She's correcting people's grammar constantly in a way that is somehow endearing and not obnoxious. She's quoting the books she taught. She has a deep and abiding love for Hamlet.

[00:45:38] The title is based on a Gabriel García Márquez short story called Enormous Wings. Her name is Pepper Mills, so puns galore, but she thinks puns are never, ever funny, and there are jokes about that, too. But after she gets into a minor fender bender, her adult children freak out and impress upon her that it is time for her to move into an assisted living facility.

She does not want to do that, mostly because, well, she doesn't want to give up her autonomy, but also her ex-husband is already a resident there, and she's like, "I lived with him once. I don't want to do it again. 300 other roommates is not enough to dilute the Roger effect."

But to placate her three grown children, she moves in and is like, "You know what? This isn't so bad." I mean, the food is atrocious, but she makes friends, she falls in love with a science teacher, so there's lots of science-y jokes. And then despite having gone through menopause a quarter century before, she falls pregnant, and her doctor is like, "No, really, like, you are pregnant. This is not a false anything. You are pregnant."

[00:46:43] But everybody's thinking, like, First of all, this can't be possible, but it also can't be safe for a 77-year-old woman to successfully carry a pregnancy. And for a long time, everyone assumes she will miscarry, but that doesn't happen. And the book kind of gives a reason to those who want a reason for what's going on here. But you know what I didn't tell you is Pepper lives in Texas, and it turns out she does not have any medical options except to wait and see what happens next.

So this book is not science fiction, but it's almost science fiction in the way it takes you out of this world, out of the reality that we know, and into a reality where daughters are mothering their own mothers as they become mothers. It just feels a little topsy-turvy, upside down, in a way that feels really mentally expansive. I don't know how else to describe it except say read it, and I hope you'll get what I mean.

[00:47:43] But like sci-fi, by upending the rules of reality, it helps you see our reality more clearly. The best I can describe the sense of humor here, which is pervasive but also sometimes real dark, is that it feels a lot like Annie Hartnett's The Road to Tender Hearts, if you enjoyed that.

ASHLEY: Yes.

ANNE: And last year's book that I loved, These Heathens by Mia McKenzie, that would also make a really good comp here. But this book is about aging and risk, and it is so heart-rendingly poignant as it contemplates what love and life look like through changing seasons. And because it's set in an assisted living facility where many patients are moving from the very basic low-touch assisted living to the nursing facility, there's lots of discussions about pain and cancer and the normal and natural and painful and not as painful ways to be sick and grow ill and die.

[00:48:46] The little band of friends that forms among Pepper and her boyfriend and their tight little group of friends in the nursing home community is just gorgeous. It's so delightful to read about. And also, Pepper is extremely close to her 15-year-old granddaughter, Lola, who brings a whole different dimension to the story. I loved each one of the three adult children.

But something I really want you to know about this book is even though these people are family, and even though it makes sense that Pepper finds a group of friends almost immediately in her assisted living facility, the way that grandmother and granddaughter team up to fix a big problem later in the book, they end up taking a road trip. So the book feels... it takes on a different dimension then. And the way the residents in this assisted living facility come together and enjoy their life... the way you talked about how you love adventures and you love any story where an unlikely team of people come together to get stuff done, I think this book really will speak to you on those levels.

[00:49:57] I'm sure I'm leaving out something very important. I'm going to need to email you later. But I feel like this is almost an adventure story, but it's not the kind of adventure we typically think of. How's this sounding to you?

ASHLEY: Oh, I'm super intrigued. I just love some good witty dialogue, and especially if I know going into it that it's meant to be a little larger than life, and maybe something a little bizarre is going to happen, then when I'm mentally prepared for that, I just can sink right into it.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. Okay, I'm really torn but I'm leaning toward more English teachers, and I like that this comes out July 7th, gives you something to look forward to. Have you read any Daniel Mason? He has a new book coming out called Country People.

ASHLEY: I don't think so.

[00:50:46] ANNE: Okay. You would probably know him from North Woods, which was a novel and interconnected short stories that we talked about on the podcast. This new one has a different tone, and this is a romp about teachers. Mason says that his intention was to write a serious novel about Chekhov, you know, like serious great American fiction, but instead he ended up with this.

It is a sharply comic novel about the absurdities of city people packing up their lives and moving to the country. They think they're embarking on this grand, romantic, outdoorsy adventure, but all those romantic notions about what's going to happen and what country life is like run smack into reality.

If you don't know Daniel Mason, I would say reading this, imagine the most satirical Amor Towles. I think that puts you in the realm of what this tone is like. But this just feels like a romp. It also feels like a prolonged coming-of-age and just a serious midlife reckoning story.

[00:51:58] This is also a good book for book people because it's about two literary nerds. They're married. Oh, they're from California. And they're leaving California life behind. Not suggesting you do the same, but you know their point of origin, and they are traveling cross-country to Vermont for the wife's visiting professorship. She's an esteemed scholar. She has this cushy gig in Vermont for a year at this little private liberal arts school. They are so excited to embark on a year-long adventure with their two kids. One's in third grade, one's in junior high. They both think they know what they're getting into. They have no idea.

Kate is obsessed with Milton and Paradise Lost. That's her area of expertise. Her husband, Miles, has been writing his dissertation for something like 14 years. He has tried and failed to write 11 dissertations, which actually sounds like another book in the Summer Reading Guide, just in this one specific area. And his continuing quest to figure out what he wants to be when he grows up now that he's 40-something is pervasive in the book.

[00:53:04] And this story is just packed with these almost realistic absurdities with the small-town scandals. And there are plenty of them. There are these conspiracy theories, like the husband Miles, gets sucked into this cult, I think, obsessed with the dream of a hollow Earth that is very active in his community.

They have a family dog that comes with them on the trip who has a turbocharged sense of smell. This dog was bred for truffle hunting, and that ends up playing very directly into the story. We get the dog's perspective sometimes about what he smells and what he needs to find.

There is a local ski instructor so handsome he's known for scrambling the senses of anyone in his radius as he's teaching your kids how to ski down the slopes. There's lots of transcripts of this local show called The Miscellaneous Minute that are more than a little absurd woven through the story.

[00:54:04] But Miles and Kate... Well, Kate gets into a little bit of work difficulties, but Miles gets into all kinds of trouble when he's not sure what to do with himself, and the way that plays out is just, it's fun. I mean, even as the content is the stuff of our daily lives, like after-school activities with the kids, a visit to the emergency room, a school play where scandalous things happen, a happy dog dirtying the sofa of the professor's home that you're renting for the year. This is really just a big-hearted story of reinvention, rediscovery, and also serious midlife reckoning, and an adventure into this world you think you know and find out you, bless your heart, you had no idea. How's that sound?

ASHLEY: Oh, this is hitting a lot of the right things. I have plenty of my own dog stories, and I love when there's a good character as a dog, and you get to see... Because you just know, like people who know dogs know when it's accurate that that's probably exactly what the dog is thinking. So that kind of tips it above the just slightly interesting into very interesting and maybe perfect for me.

[00:55:13] ANNE: That sounds great. Ashley, I have more ideas that we'll save for after we hit stop on the recording, but I hope these are sounding good. Now, there's a whole guide coming your way, so more to choose from. But of the books we talked about today, Fair Chase by Travis Mulhauser, Enormous Wings by Laurie Frankel, and Country People by Daniel Mason, what's sounding good? What do you think you might pick up next?

ASHLEY: I think for sure Fair Chase is going to be sitting on my table waiting for me to come home for my first day of summer, because that just sounds so perfect. But all three of these are going to be in my list to read over the summer.

ANNE: Well, I'm happy to hear it. Thank you so much for bringing your summer reading planning to us, and for talking books with me today.

ASHLEY: Oh, thank you. This was so much fun.

[00:56:07] ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ashley, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Follow our show on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext to keep up with new episodes, events, and more.

Help others find our show by leaving a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. It's also a big help to us if you follow or subscribe to our podcast in your favorite podcast app or player, whatever that is. This data means a lot to the advertisers and platforms that help us pay our team and create new episodes each week. Thanks for taking a moment to check your settings.

Sign up for our email list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter to keep up with all the latest happenings from What Should I Read Next HQ.

[00:56:52] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Sue Grafton (try A is for Alibi)
• Tony Hillerman (try The Blessing Way)
• Anne McCaffrey (try Dragonflight)
• The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien
• John Grisham (try The Pelican Brief)
• Tom Clancy (try The Hunt for Red October)
• Maeve Binchy (try Circle of Friends)
The River by Peter Heller
The Adventures of Amina Al-Sirafi by Shannon Chakraborty (Audio edition)
• The Tapestry of Fate by Shannon Chakraborty (Audio edition)
The God of the Woods by Liz Moore
• Long Bright River by Liz Moore
• The Unseen World by Liz Moore
• Heft by Liz Moore
▵ The Cartographers by Peng Shepherd
• Kristin Hannah (try The Four Winds)
• Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaghy
• Cherry Baby by Rainbow Rowell
• What We Can Know by Ian McEwan
• Fair Chase by Travis Mulhauser
• Sweetgirl by Travis Mulhauser
• The Trouble Up North by Travis Mulhauser
• Enormous Wings by Laurie Frankel
• The Road to Tender Hearts by Annie Hartnett
• These Heathens by Mia McKenzie
• Country People by Daniel Mason
• North Woods by Daniel Mason

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• Read-Aloud Revival
• MMD Book Club Readers’ Weekend
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The post What should I read this summer? appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today’s book lover is seeking a literary doorway into the creative world of art and museums.

Kristine Parsons doesn’t have an art background. She works as a county road commission manager in Michigan, yet she is fascinated by art and museums, and finds herself drawn to immersive and engaging stories that incorporate one or both elements into the story.

Kristine loves to travel and visit museums in person, but her day-to-day life between work and two active pre-teens means that in this season, these visits are more likely to occur on the page. Today, Kristine and I are exploring stories featuring art and the creative process, and if I have recommendations that are actually set in museums, well, so much the better.

I can’t wait to dive in and share ideas for Kristine’s armchair cultural adventures. We’d love to hear your ideas for Kristine, too: please tell us by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Kristine on Instagram and Goodreads.

I’m thrilled to announce that our long-awaited MMD sorority style sweatshirt is available for pre-order. This cute, comfortable layer is a mid-weight Comfort Colors crew, and comes in your choice of a soft blue or a soft red. Both options feature an MMD applique in deep navy. These are cute and comfortable, and I can’t wait to wear mine on cool summer nights and then all year round. We also have a new hat style and other restocked favorites: find everything at ​modernmrsdarcy.com/shop​.

[00:00:00] KRISTINE PARSONS: I have a giant stack of books I bought on spring break and on vacation, and every time I go in the bookstore, I have a lot that I have read recently and that I want to read.

ANNE BOGEL: Well, that sounds amazing. But you're okay with adding to your stack today?

KRISTINE: Of course. I never have any problem doing that.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:50] Readers, I want to tell you about something we've been working on behind the scenes for a long time around here. We've been working on a certain product for our shop, and I'm so happy to announce that it is finally available for pre-order. Visit our shop to check out our new MMD sorority style sweatshirt, available in a mid-weight Comfort Colors crew in two shades: a soft blue called blue jean and a soft red called crimson. Both feature an MMD applique in deep navy. They are cute and comfortable, and I can't wait to wear mine on cool summer nights and then all year round.

We are also stocked up on our popular well-read ball cap, as well as this year's new style. I'm going to let you pop over to the shop and see it for yourself. They are perfect for keeping the sun off your face at the zoo, the beach, or the ball game, while sharing your love of reading with a subtle embroidered message. Check out our latest additions and longtime favorites at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

[00:01:52] Readers, today I'm chatting with a book lover who's seeking a literary doorway into the creative world of art and museums. Kristine Parsons doesn't have an art background. She works as a county road commission manager in Michigan, yet she is fascinated by art and museums, and finds herself drawn to immersive and engaging stories that incorporate one or both elements into the story.

Kristine loves to travel and visit museums in person, but her day-to-day life between work and two active pre-teens means that in this season, these visits are more likely to occur on the page. Today, Kristine and I are exploring stories featuring art and the creative process, and if I have recommendations that are actually set in museums, well, so much the better.

I can't wait to dive in and share ideas for Kristine's armchair cultural adventures. Let's get to it.

Kristine, welcome to the show.

KRISTINE: Hi there. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:48] ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. I'm so excited to talk to another Michigander, and also I will confess, I got real excited when I saw the kind of books you were looking for, so thanks for bringing it to the show today.

KRISTINE: Of course, I have looked forward to doing this for a long time, and any opportunity I get to talk about books, sign me up.

ANNE: Should we tell the readers we were just talking about accosting strangers in bookstores we visit, because they need to know what they might enjoy reading next?

KRISTINE: Yes. I consider myself a book pusher, so if I see you in a bookstore browsing, even anywhere near a book that I like or have loved, I will tell you all about why you should read it. I generally walk into the bookstores and recommend whatever it is that strikes my fancy.

ANNE: Mm, that could be a real gift. The right book at the right time. Okay, I imagine many listeners are just smiling with recognition right now.

[00:03:42] Kristine, tell us a little more about yourself. In addition to your book pusher status, would you give us a little glimpse of who and where you are?

KRISTINE: I live in southwest Michigan, not too far away from Lake Michigan, and I have two children, not-quite-teenage children. I have a husband and two dogs, and I work in road construction. So not the actual construction myself. I manage a road department, so we deal with a lot of road-related questions and problems. It's interesting, but stressful, so reading is my escape. It's my main hobby, my passion, the thing that people know me by, I would say, for better or for worse. If you don't want to talk about books, you don't want to come too close to me probably.

[00:04:31] I have always had a fascination with art, I would say, but an amateur fascination. It feels like one of those things that you need a special entrée into that world or an education and an art history degree, and I don't have that. I'm just a person who really appreciates beautiful art and finding beauty in the world.

I love a book that talks about the creative process, and not just in the traditional ways, either, I would say. Like Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, the development of the video games, I felt like that was really fascinating from a creative standpoint.

So anything that gets me more information about what drives someone to create beauty, whether it be a painting or whether it be writing a book or developing a video game or even just the way the light falls on the grass some days, I think people who can recognize that and translate that into creation or the creative process, and, you know, paintings in particular I find very moving. I would love to know more about that. I would love to have more knowledge about who this artist is or their creative process.

[00:05:41] We have a really wonderful art museum in Michigan, the Detroit Institute of Arts, and I've never been there, and I'm... It's my goal to go and not be intimidated, I guess.

ANNE: Oh, what an amazing goal. And I believe in you. You can do this. But maybe some good novels can help you prepare for your experience when it arrives.

KRISTINE: And that's always the way that I approach any new endeavor is there's gotta be a book about that. So that sounds perfect.

ANNE: Oh, that is so relatable. Kristine, tell us about your reading life.

KRISTINE: Oh gosh, my reading life. I read in every spare minute that I have. I'm very much like if I'm blow-drying my hair in the morning, I'll be listening to a book. I will be reading while I cook dinner. I do a lot of audiobooks. I would say probably 50% of my reading is audiobooks these days just with... I have a long commute. I read my Kindle at night. I'm definitely a multiple Kindle person, but then I also have an abnormal number of book stacks around my house, I'm sure if you asked my husband. So I have a lot of physical books. I find them soothing.

[00:06:50] I have a lot of joy just from having the book in my hand to smell the book, to sit out in my chair in the backyard and read a book, a physical book particularly. There's just a sensation that you cannot pass up on sometimes.

So I read widely, I would say. I have particular genres that I enjoy. I really enjoy historical fiction. I like police procedurals, and I have you to thank for that. I don't think I would've gotten into police procedurals if it hadn't been for your podcast. The Duncan Kincaid particularly I really enjoy.

ANNE: Oh, I'm so glad.

KRISTINE: I love anything set in Ireland with an Irish narrator or an Australian. Jane Harper, Tana French, sign me up. I love them. I like nonfiction a lot and most of all, I should definitely say this, I love romance. I'm in a romance book club at my library I help run, and it's called Between the Pages, and we have a fantastic time reading a lot of different kinds of romance and fantasy.

[00:07:51] I read pretty broadly. I will sometimes read outside of what I'm comfortable with if somebody can give me a really compelling recommendation. I need to have a likable character. If the character's not super likable, I don't know if I'm going to finish it.

For instance, let me give you a really good example here, you recommended on the podcast years ago The Likeness by Tana French, and I had not read any police procedurals. I was not a murder mystery person at that time, and gosh, that book, one of my all-time favorites. I bought a copy, I'm like, "I'm going to reread this." It's stuck with me. I think about it regularly, which is just wild to me because I feel like I don't have enough bandwidth to think about all the things in my regular life. But just the compelling nature of the story, the characters, the mystery, the way she wove it, it's just so nuanced and interesting and well-crafted and- To this day, I still think about that all the time. I wouldn't have picked that up if it weren't for the recommendation, so I will try new things with a compelling recommendation.

[00:09:00] ANNE: I'm glad to hear that. I'm wondering what that's going to mean for today. Kristine, I believe you've been listening for a long time. What brings you to What Should I Read Next? now?

KRISTINE: Oh, gosh, I've been listening since the beginning. I've been working at the road department... Gosh, I feel like that you started this right about the time that I started at the road department because I was pregnant with my daughter at the time, or maybe she was a newborn, and I had a lot of time on my hands then. But I love talking about books. I love having conversations with people about the things they love about books, immersing myself in the literary world.

On Friday last week, I heard Shelby Van Pelt speak about Remarkably Bright Creatures here in Michigan, in advance of her Netflix debut. So it was just really interesting to hear how she crafted the story and her whole process and where she was wandering through the aquarium and thinking about Marcellus and had a newborn daughter.

[00:10:00] I find myself so drawn into conversations where people can tell you what book you should read, but also why. Like, don't just tell me what I should read, tell me why I should read it. That's what I want to know, because anybody can give a book recommendation. Anybody can say, "Have you read this?" Or, you know, sure, sure, I probably have, but tell me why. That's the important part for me is I want to understand why you like it, why I might like it.

ANNE: Okay. Well, today you came to the show with a specific request. Would you fill our listeners in on what that is?

KRISTINE: I really feel like that while I have a passion in my interior, heart, mind, however you'd like to say it, for art, it can feel a little intimidating to walk into an art museum and really not understand what is happening. Like, sure, art on the walls, statues, but what does it mean? Where does it come from? How do you understand it? How can you learn more about it? It can be a little intimidating, I think, for the average person. And I'm the average person.

[00:11:02] So I would like to go into a museum and better understand, you know, what's going on when I look at a certain painting or understand the influences of certain artists or how that ties into how the painting was created or what the statue means. As we talked about, I'm a person who if I want to know something, I go to a book, and I feel like, especially in literature, there's a lot of references to art. There's a lot of stories about art, whether it's a fictional story or a nonfictional story, you know, the art thief or the art spy.

Understanding why certain paintings don't exist anymore or what happened and what drove people to collect art, the whole world of it I find really fascinating. I'm really immersed in those kinds of stories. So I'd like to learn more about it. I'd like to walk into a museum and be like, "Oh, I know that painting," or, you know, "I understand where that statue comes from." I don't need to know everything, but I want to have a working knowledge of certain things, some surface-level knowledge of art and where I can go to read more about it. And not just the nonfiction. I don't just want to, like, you know, a program. I want to understand stories and backgrounds and just really understand more than I do right now.

[00:12:23] ANNE: I want to tell you about an experience I had recently in the Saint Louis Art Museum. I walked into a room, and I was checking out the mid-century paintings and was so delighted to recognize a work by Helen Frankenthaler. I had seen this work before, but it didn't mean anything to me before. But in the interim, I had read a novel, and a huge interlude in the novel takes place at a Helen Frankenthaler special exhibit in London.

And I had walked through that exhibit with the protagonist and one of the ancillary characters, and I had Googled all the works that were mentioned, and I Googled the theory about the art that the artist, who was the protagonist, was describing. And I just felt like when I walked back into that Saint Louis Art Museum that I hadn't been in in several years and noticed that card I hadn't noticed before, even though it was there the last time I visited, it meant something to me, and it was because of the book, that I didn't pick up because of Helen Frankenthaler, but that's where the book led me.

[00:13:22] KRISTINE: I know exactly what book you're talking about. I also read that part and was like, "Let me Google all these paintings. Let me Google Helen Frankenthaler." I wish you could have seen my face. I just jumped when you said the experience they had in the museum in London. I was like, "I know what she's talking about." That's the kind of experience. I want to have that tie in to a book or an experience or a memory, something that makes it more meaningful, something that will make it stick with me a little more.

ANNE: So if we could bring you more of that kind of experience, you would be really happy.

KRISTINE: Oh, I would be over the moon.

ANNE: Okay. Readers, you may want to know that the book we're talking about is Writers & Lovers by Lily King. And we're talking about art, so that's all we're going to say about it.

What do you think about this, Kristine? What about if you tell me the three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and I'll be filtering this through your interest in art and your desire to have more of those kinds of experiences. And then we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next, and we'll see what other clues and nuggets we pick up along the way.

[00:14:29] KRISTINE: Okay, perfect. The first book that I loved was The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai, and this is probably the one I've let longest to go, so I'm not as clear on the details as I was when I read it. But I remember the impressions that stuck with me. Just the history of the AIDS crisis and the way that that was portrayed.

And as a child of the '90s, I grew up and knew about it, but I don't know that I was as aware of it as this story takes you. The way that they wove art into that story, that he worked in a museum, but he was... Or an art gallery, that's what it was. But he was more about donations and getting paintings, so it was a little more mercenary than perhaps... you know, he wasn't just a starving artist, but he was around a lot of artists.

And the dual timelines of that story... I really preferred the historical timeline more than the present-day timeline. But understanding what it's like to create art when also this major historical event is happening, which maybe they didn't realize at the time was this major historical event, but that will completely impact the way that the art is created and looked at and translated into the decades in the future, and what it means when you don't know what's going on.

[00:15:55] I think a lot of us can relate to that with the pandemic. But what it means to have that experience, that traumatic experience, and also be trying to live your life and survive what's happening. I really appreciated the way that she put a human face on the historical events, and also dived really deeply into the characters' lives and into some of the less serious things too, the trips to visit the art donor, and the conversations that he had with her, and how there are still practical concerns. You know, "How much am I going to make off of this if I give you all of my art?"

I mean, all of those things were interesting and relatable, but I think the thing that really moved me the most was what it felt like for those characters to face death and disease and the unknown, and not... You know, it wasn't as well understood then as it is now, or even understood at all, and then also have to keep living their lives, and how that influences the art they create. I think that was a really beautiful story. Really tragic, but also really beautiful.

[00:17:02] ANNE: I believe I remember reading that tragic but beautiful is something not uncommon to your superlative reading experiences.

KRISTINE: Yes. I like a book to both move me and make me feel hopeful, and sometimes also break my heart. Like, the emotional experience of being invested, and you're hoping that it ends well, and that the resolution that you're really yearning for happens, but if it doesn't, that you're so invested, you're like, "Whoa, I need a minute to recover from that." You know, I like a nice, tidy ending, but also I can handle something less than happy if I feel like that I really got emotionally invested.

ANNE: That's helpful. That is The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai. Kristine, what's the second book you love?

[00:17:56] KRISTINE: The second book is The Unseen World by Liz Moore. I read Long Bright River, oh gosh, five or six years ago, and it just blew me away, and I loved it so much, I'm like, "I'm going to read everything she's written." And I picked up The Unseen World, and I was like, "Whoa, this is totally different." Which I read The God of the Woods last year, two years ago, and I feel like maybe that's the theme of her books, is they're all completely different from each other, and that's a real skill, I think, to be able to pick a subject and characters and have them be so different from each other, but yet the emotional heft of the story is still there. Like, you can still feel her mastery of the story happening as she writes it and learning about the characters. And really she makes it easy to get emotionally invested, and for me, I want emotional investment. I think that's a thing that art does well, too, so then maybe that's how that ties in here, is art allows for, it creates emotional investment if it's done well. And I guess that's a subjective thing.

[00:18:59] But I really loved the story of Ada and her father and her unconventional upbringing and how she was very precocious and surrounded by all of this emerging technology. She knew so much. At the same time, she also knew so little. A moment her life changes from the known to the unknown, or the unseen, I guess. And you really go with her on this journey as she discovers what her life is going to look like, what her life means, where she comes from. And you're discovering it with her as she's understanding things about her family that she was unaware of or trying to understand her father better because he was also, even though she was the closest person that he had in the world, he was also a mystery to her, to some degree. So it was a really compelling, intimately told story, and I just really appreciated what the author was able to do.

ANNE: Okay, that was The Unseen World by Liz Moore. I mean, speaking of bittersweet.

[00:20:04] KRISTINE: Oh, that's true. Yeah. And I feel like I've read a couple of books lately that reminded me of that. I can't think... what's the one where the father's a doomsday prepper?

ANNE: Oh, wait, hang on, I got real excited because I thought you were talking about What Kind of Mother.

KRISTINE: I am. I am talking about What Kind of Mother. That is it.

ANNE: Okay.

KRISTINE: You're so good at this game.

ANNE: Well, I recommended that book to my 16-year-old, and then felt really proud of myself when I found out later that it had won an Alex Award, which does highlight adult books that would be especially of interest to teenagers. But I kept thinking as he was reading it if The Unseen World would be a good next pick, so I think those books were already linked in my brain.

KRISTINE: Yes. They reminded me a lot of each other. That's where I was going, is I think that they have very similar premises, but they're done differently enough that I think you could still appreciate them. I don't know if I'd read them back-to-back, but they reminded me a lot of each other. There's an Irish novel, Confessions, that reminded me a lot of Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and I'm like, see-

ANNE: Oh, I haven't read that one.

[00:21:06] KRISTINE: Oh, it's interesting. It's not as good as Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, but it is still very similar. Like, similar premise. And you can have stories that are similar and also be completely different and have different emotional experiences. I guess that's what I love about books. You can read one book one day and a different book the next day, and they remind you a lot of each other, and the emotional experience could be totally different or it could be exactly what you were looking for when you're saying, "I want another book like this." I think what a lot of people mean is, "I want to feel the same way when I read it," you know?

ANNE: Yes, which is why the algorithms often don't cut it.

KRISTINE: Yeah, 100%. It's an emotional experience.

ANNE: I'm with you. I'm with you. Kristine, what's the third book you love?

KRISTINE: The third book is my favorite.

ANNE: That's bold. I love it.

[00:21:54] KRISTINE: I love it so much. I was in the car on the way back from a conference when I read this book, and it's seared into my memory, just the experience of reading it in the backseat of the car. People were talking to me, and I was like, "I cannot talk to you right now. I want to read this book." It's Heart the Lover. I don't think I said that.

Heart the Lover by Lily King, oh, it just broke me in the best possible way. I loved Jordan. I think the thing I loved so much was not necessarily her experiences reminded me of me, but her emotional depth as a character, her growth, the maturity that you see happening in the book, her flaws, her wounds. It reminded me of myself. And maybe it's just of a particular era, the sort of pre-cellphone college experience or early cellphone college experience. I was in college in the late '90s, early 2000s, and it had a very particular flavor that reminded me of my own experiences and being away from home and exposing yourself to different types of people that can be really intimidating.

[00:22:58] She talks about in the beginning of the book how she felt really intimidated by Yash and by Sam because they just seem so knowledgeable. I remember having that same experience. Like, you can go from being a very small world in high school, and you go to college and it just completely expands your horizons. I loved her as a character. I identified with her deeply.

I like books set in academia. It gave me a little bit of The Secret History vibes, not so much for the plot, just the feel, the sort of very academic, literary feel. I always enjoy learning new things. So she talks a lot about art and history and culture and experiences. I felt like I learned a lot, you know, was exposed to a lot of different things, authors and concepts in that book, even though it's just a short little book.

[00:23:48] And then also it was very emotionally packed. It was very wistful, and it was heartbreaking. It just leaves you wrung out in the best possible way. That young love feeling, the way that you experience that first relationship that you're never going to be able to do again because you only have a first love the one time, and the trials and errors that you go through in relationships. Ugh, it moved me so deeply, and I'm fairly certain after I read it, I called everyone I knew, and I was like, "You need to read this book. You need to read this book right now." I bought copies for people. It was just something that I felt like it just changed my life, and it needed to do the same thing for everybody else. But, you know, art is an individual experience, so who knows? But I just was blown away.

ANNE: I love that for you. And I'm making notes. We may be connecting some of those ideas to recommendations shortly. Kristine, now would you tell me about a book that was not right for you? And I'd love to hear where the disconnect was.

[00:24:53] KRISTINE: I'm sure that it's right for other people. It got a lot of publicity and people seemed to really enjoy it. It was A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhirst. The first little bit with the whale, I was like, "Man, oof, exciting. What's happening here?" I love a good, compelling nonfiction story. And then the whole rest of it seemed like it was unlikable characters. And it's real people, so it's their real story and not incredibly sympathetic. It felt a little mundane.

I guess I felt like the story was going to be more about the survival aspect and the adventure of the story and less about the logistics of the trip. There were parts of it in there, the survival parts, but it just felt like that was smaller than I had expected. I wasn't as captivated as I was hoping to be. But it wasn't terrible. I didn't hate it. There are books that I hate, I'm sure. There's books that I'll, you know, for the rest of my life remember how much I disliked it. This one just wasn't for me. It didn't keep my attention long enough. I wasn't as interested as I had hoped. I was looking for more of the emotional experience of survival, and I was really hoping the whale falls on the ship and these people have to survive, and it was not Castle of Water. To be fair, it is nonfiction, but... I was going for a little bit more Castle of Water vibes, but nonfictional.

[00:26:28] ANNE: Oh, I haven't thought about Castle of Water. Well, actually, I think about Castle of Water, readers were talking about the Dane Huckelbridge novel, every time I think about taking out my contacts and not having a new pair.

KRISTINE: I was just thinking about that part.

ANNE: It's about a plane crash on an island, and two people make a life thereafter. But she doesn't have her glasses, contacts. Oh, I'm really grateful for my contacts. Okay, but we are talking about your books, and A Marriage at Sea was not for you.

I distinctly remember reading that, well, I listened to the audio, which was short, it was five-something hours, while I was doing yard work last summer, and I thought it was very interesting. And also that book was another that made me realize how much I appreciate emotional resonance in the fiction and nonfiction stories I'm reading. Like, that's something that really makes a particularly good reading experience for me, and I miss it when it's not there. And so many readers have loved this book. That's worth saying.

[00:27:38] What I hear you saying, Kristine, I think, is that a nonfiction, this happened, this happened, and this happened, is not answering that question you said was so important to you, in a different context, but the question of why. Like, what's the meaning there? What am I to make of this?

KRISTINE: No, I would agree with you. I think that that is part of what the problem was.

ANNE: Okay. Kristine, what have you been reading lately?

KRISTINE: I just finished Yesteryear with, I think, half the rest of the world, and I'm still thinking about it. I feel like that book really is made for contemplation and thinking about, and book clubs. And if you want to talk about it, that's one that you can pick up and talk about. There's a lot of different aspects to it. I've really enjoyed the experience.

[00:28:25] I picked up American Fantasy this week, so I'm super excited about that to see where that's going to go, because I really love Emma Straub, and have not had a bad experience with one of her books yet. I haven't read them all, but I think that this one sounds promising.

I'm also reading Daughter of Egypt by Marie Benedict, and I really love that. I love Egyptology. I reread The Egypt Game last year because it was one of my, I think, historical favorites from my adolescence, and just, ugh, just revived that childhood interest in all things, like, ancient Egypt and pharaohs. It's super interesting. I'm really enjoying it.

I have a giant stack of books I bought on spring break and on vacation, and every time I go in the bookstore that I'm really looking forward to. I'm really looking forward to the new Maggie O'Farrell, so I don't know. I have a lot that I have read recently and that I want to read.

ANNE: Well, that sounds amazing. But you're okay with adding to your stack today?

[00:29:26] KRISTINE: Of course. I never have any problem doing that. When people are always like, "I have to cut my TBR back," I'm like, "I don't even..." If I was to look at Goodreads, I guarantee you there's probably 7,000 books on there. I don't care how many books are on there. I care about what I want to read in the moment, having choices and selection. The more new books, the better. I will never have enough time to read all the books, but half the joy of being a reader is surrounding yourself with the choices of all the books that you crack open and fall into, and they become your whole personality for two or three days. And then, you know, everybody around you is like, "Stop talking about that book, about the tradwife." I'm like, "But wait, I haven't told you about the best part."

ANNE: So more books is more possibility, and you like possibility in your reading life.

KRISTINE: I love possibility. I think that's what makes it exciting is you don't know what you're going to encounter.

[00:30:19] ANNE: Okay. So today we're looking for bookish possibility, including stories set in museums and about art. We've talked a little bit about those characteristics that you really enjoy and the genres that you tend to go to. Is there anything else I should know about what you're looking for, or that you want right now, if that's a different question to you?

KRISTINE: No, I am really open to anything. I trust your judgment. You're the expert. And also, I really enjoy someone's perspective other than my own. I have a really good dialed in sense of what I like, but I think part of the bookish serendipity that appeals to me so much is someone presenting something to me that I might not have considered for myself.

ANNE: Okay, let's go. Kristine, this is going to be fun. Thank you for bringing this request to the show. The first book I have for you is brand new, just out May 5th. It was in the Summer Reading Guide, so I want to focus on a little bit of a different thing than I did at unboxing or in the guide. It's by Alexandra Andrews. It's called The Fine Art of Lying. Do you know it?

KRISTINE: I do not.

[00:31:31] ANNE: Okay. She wrote Who Is Maud Dixon? that came out maybe 2021, give or take a year, which was a suspenseful thriller with no likable character. And I'm really asking myself, I've been asking myself while you've been talking, like, "Are these characters likable?"

But I think the protagonist of this book has a lot that you will like about her. So this is about a woman named Claire. She's a Manhattan stay-at-home mom. She lives a pretty tame life. She is almost done with her art history PhD, and she says that she's been languishing as an ABD, that is All But Dissertation, for years.

And I'm going to skip to her revelation that she has at the end of the book for her. She finally decides, like, "I, I love art. I grew up in this tiny town upstate, and I went to a museum and fell in love with this one particular painting, and it set me on a path that made me think, 'I want to know more about this.'"

[00:32:41] And she thought, Well, obviously, the thing to do is pursue art history. And if you're going to pursue it all the way, that ends up with pursuing a PhD. And her focus is this fictional artist who's this... she describes him as a successful but enigmatic mid-century painter who's supposed to be the subject of her dissertation, except she's not writing it.

But she comes to this realization that really you reminded me of with your words about art. She just reflects on how she loves art. She doesn't know why. She loves the mystery of it. And she reflects on how no one in the thousands of years that art has existed, has been made by humans, has ever given a satisfactory explanation of what it actually does and why it affects us and how it affects us and what it all means, and why do certain works of art affect some people and not others?

[00:33:32] And she says all these people have written millions upon millions of words about art, and she's read so many of them, but she says not a single sentence has come close to capturing that visceral response she had when she looks at a painting that, for whatever reason, she loves. And she says, "It's not logical. It makes no sense, but it's real, and that is why I love art." And that kinda reminded me of what you said. Like, we can't understand it. I mean, we can't understand why we're drawn to it, but we can learn more about the things we're drawn to.

And in this book, which is a murder mystery, and it begins in this, like, dramatic fashion, then you go back and learn about the bad choices she made that led to her being at the scene of a crime when an art gallerist is murdered, oh, and an $18 million painting is missing.

But she knows all these things about art, but it's not just the knowledge, it's like what they mean to her. And my favorite parts of the book were when she gets pulled into conversations with people who know the art world, and she just really quippily like says what she thinks and why she likes some things but thinks others are overrated, and she's like, "Oh, those multimillion-dollar rainbow dots, like they just look good with people's sofas. That's the only reason that that's popular. You want to see some good dots, how about check out this artist or this artist or this artist?"

[00:34:53] And Kristine, I think maybe the highest recommendation I can give to you for this one after I think you may really feel a kinship with the protagonist, is my search history was so delightfully full of Richard Diebenkorn and Ed Ruscha and James Turrell and Carsten Höller, and artists I hadn't heard of before, like Kusama and Baldessari and Howardena Pindell, and I enjoyed going down that road.

Also, for books set in museums, there's a fictional museum that's crucial to this book. It's called the Museum of Contemporary Art. It's in New York City. And how the museum functions, how the funds are raised, how the museum decides what to acquire, and then the complex process it must go through if it wants to deaccession a work, I'd never thought about any of that.

When I was reading it, I thought, "Oh, of course museums have to make decisions like this, and of course they have to account for the finances and the decisions about the art and everything else," but I'd never thought about it. And I really enjoyed how this book drew me to think about it. How does this sound to you?

[00:35:56] KRISTINE: Oh my gosh, that sounds incredible. I'm just sitting here, I'm like, "How fast can I get this book?" Feels like it perfectly encapsulates what I'm looking for in my reading life right now. And my fascination, if I had to tell you, there's certain things I consider in my reading wheelhouse, museums, art, nuns, code breaking. I'm sure it's a very eclectic list, but it sounds like you have taken the words that I have spoken and breathed them into existence in the form of this book, and I'm just so thrilled to get my hands on it.

ANNE: Well, I'm delighted to hear it. Kristine and I are recording before the Summer Reading Guide, but I will have said more about it by the time this episode is airing, and you can have your hands on it. Past Kristine can be reading it by the time this episode is playing for everyone.

KRISTINE: I can't wait.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad that sounds like a good fit. Next, I'm thinking about Lightbreakers by Aja Gabel. And this one has been out for a little longer. Have you read this?

[00:36:57] KRISTINE: I have not read this. I have it on hold in the library because-

ANNE: Do you?

KRISTINE: You know, I've always wanted to read The Ensemble, and I read the first few pages and I was like, "Eh, I don't know if I like this." And maybe it was just more not the right book at the right time, because they seemed a little unlikable. Because I don't know if I gave it a fair shot. But I have this one on hold, and I haven't read it. Please tell me more about it.

ANNE: Well, this one has a strong hook for you just with the content, so it could be a great place to start with Aja Gable, and then you can decide. It is very different from The Ensemble. I think this one came out in fall 2024. But I was one of many readers who had just been eagerly awaiting her next one for six years. And she's a screenwriter, so she was writing in the meantime, just not writing books that we could hold in our hands. But this new novel is very different from her first.

[00:37:49] In this one, a quantum physicist is approached by a rich, egotistical billionaire to work on a secret project involving a dangerous kind of time travel. At first, our scientist, Noah, and his wife, Maya, believe that Noah's been singled out because he's brilliant. And he's definitely brilliant, but he's also been targeted because of a tragedy in his past that's really being exploited here. And the billionaire also has secret, sinister motives, but you know, he's keeping those under wraps for the time being.

So Noah and Maya decide he's going to take the job, they can't turn it down, and they move together to Marfa, Texas, because that's where the billionaire's lab is. I've never been to Marfa, Texas, but I have really enjoyed the books I have read that include stops in Marfa, Texas. I think this might be the first one I've read that's set entirely in Marfa, Texas. But art is big in Marfa, Texas. It is a real destination.

[00:38:46] So while Noah is off trying to figure out this dangerous kind of time travel thing, bad things are happening to Noah, and his work, and his marriage. But the stakes are even higher than that, and that sci-fi kind of story will be deeply compelling to some readers.

But let's talk about the setting and the art for you. Much of the action takes place in Marfa, Texas, which is such a cool place that many of us have only been to, and perhaps will only go to on the page. Maya is an artist from Japan, and her career and interests feature prominently in this book, how she's thinking about her work and her field, and her friends who are artists, her friends who have left.

There is so much art in these pages. I did so much Googling. My search history just makes me smile when I think about it. I looked up so much Donald Judd and Kusama's infinity mirror rooms. Now on... You want to go to the Detroit Museum. I want to see an infinity mirror room in person now, and it's because of this book.

[00:39:50] The Marfa ghost lights. The protagonist describes her visceral reactions to some works she sees, like a Donald Judd installation that she saw and took in and just started crying. And she walks you through why. But also there's some more cerebral breakdowns of how she responds or doesn't to certain pieces.

The Marfa ghost lights are not artistic exactly, but was also a really fun textural detail. But the art is not limited to Marfa. We also go to LA, and New York City, and Japan. There's so much fun, nerdy, creative, intellectual stuff in these pages because her husband's a scientist, she's an artist, and the book really examines that whole interplay between science and art, and the human desire to understand it, and the things we do understand, and also a question it poses is how much is beyond our understanding at all.

And that may sound really deep, but piece by piece with characters having conversations and thinking about the works in front of them, the right reader could really fly through this. How's this sounding to you?

[00:40:56] KRISTINE: Oh, gosh, that sounds really fascinating. And science fiction is not a thing that I would normally gravitate to, but I feel like that it's one of those genres where with the right recommendation such as this one, you can find those hidden gems that are really going to speak to you and be the book that you're like, "Wow, maybe I do need to look into this genre a little more. Maybe there are some stories that I haven't considered."

I don't like to be a person who refuses to pick something up based on genre. Like, you cannot lump them all into one genre and say, "Well, this is not for me." Like, I would generally say horror, not for me, but I know that there are some books that I've read that would be considered horror books that I did appreciate and enjoy if was not a little icked out in certain spots of the book. But the compelling storyline, time travel and space, those are also things I'm super interested in.

[00:41:47] I finished Detour a couple of days ago on audio, and had no idea what it was about besides space, and I am very fascinated by the idea of time travel and wormholes and multiverses. You have to forgive me, I'm not quite up on my science as much as I'd like to be. But it's so fascinating to think about how one choice that you make creates a spinoff universe in which you make the alternate choice, and how that domino effect or butterfly effect, whatever you'd like to say, affects everything else around you. So I'm super excited about this one and feel like I will definitely be picking it up immediately.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Okay, this next one is a little more of a stretch, but I think some of the literary story elements that aren't specifically about art have a lot in common with some of your favorites, including especially Heart the Lover.

[00:42:44] In Heart the Lover, what we have is the protagonist, Jordan, looking back at a distance of many years and reflecting on what happened in her college years, and how these relationships changed her life, and also how she feels differently about them in her, I think she's in her 40s, than she ever knew to think of them when she was in her early 20s. But the book I'm thinking of is Dear Monica Lewinsky by Julia Langbein. It came out mid-April. Is this one you're familiar with?

KRISTINE: I almost picked it up at the bookstore yesterday.

ANNE: Did you really? The cover is really distinctive. Were you drawn in by the cover, or did you put it down because of the cover? Some readers love this, and some readers are like, "What the heck? I don't think this could be for me."

KRISTINE: No, I was drawn in. And the title. It was at the library, and I saw it, and I was like, "Ooh." I almost grabbed it, but there's like a 10 new book checkout limit, and they waived it already for me, so I was like, "I can't do that too. I can't check out another one and have like 15 new books out and be monopolizing them." Our library's amazing, but on the smaller side. So I was like, "I shall save that for somebody else." I saw it yesterday. It's funny that you mention it because I was like, "Ooh, I really want to read that."

[00:43:57] ANNE: Oh, okay. It's kind of you to look out for your fellow readers. I'm not sure what you gathered from the jacket, but I'll start from scratch. Well, Holland Saltsman of The Novel Neighbor gave me a galley of this a million years ago and said, "Read it. I want to know what you think." And I was like, "What is happening with this cover?" But I did, and the premise is so audacious. I thought, "This is a big swing." It's a little bit Dickens' A Christmas Carol, but also not at all that.

So, in this book, we have this woman in her, I think, early 40s, looking back on what her life could have been, reflecting on how she was so in love with the art, and also she thought so in love with this man who she felt really took advantage of her innocence, and love and appreciation for beauty and beautiful things, and never fully understanding how it wrecked her or why, and finding guidance in what seems like both a highly unlikely but ultimately perfect place that feels like it's able to explore themes that are really perfect for right now. Lots of descriptions of art. Also, if you're into that, really terrific descriptions of France and food. How's this sounding to you?

[00:45:19] KRISTINE: There were several things that you said that really just struck a nerve, and... oh gosh, like this is going to be amazing. I'm kind of at a loss for words. I feel like I'm anticipating the experience before I've even had it, and I'm so excited just to be able to do that. But talking about the timeline of the story, you know, my college experiences are about that same timeframe, and I feel like that I can really relate to that, that if you could've developed a comparison to Heart the Lover, like, come up with it yourself, I don't think you could've done it any better than this.

This sounds like exactly the type of story that is not the same story, but same emotional experience, and I'm incredibly excited about it because it's both relevant to things that I'm aware of, but also there's so much in there to unpack and to learn about. I love learning new things about medieval art. I don't really know anything about medieval art. I have a loose knowledge of, you know, medieval times.

[00:46:15] It reminds me a little bit from what you're saying about The Rachel Incident, and I adore that book, just the relationships in there, really getting into those and understanding, like, how you feel in that moment emotionally versus perhaps looking at it later with perspective and understanding that the power dynamics were not what they should've been, and it... seeing it through a different set of lenses, perhaps. The whole book sounds incredible, and I cannot wait to pick it up. Gosh, you are so good at this.

ANNE: I'm so glad that sounds like a good fit. And The Rachel Incident is such a good comp. I love that book, and I'm always looking for more of that flavor, and it hadn't occurred to me that Dear Monica Lewinsky actually fits that description.

KRISTINE: I love that book. I listened to it, I think, and I don't know what about it. I think I initially was like, "I'm not sure this is for me," and then I'm pretty sure that was one of those... I have several in my pocket of, like, go-to recommendations, and that's one of them. That, and the Likeness, and Beartown.

[00:47:22] I'm trying not to recommend the same books all the time. I really try to think about what somebody might like because I don't want to just tell you, "Read this book." Like I said, I want to recommend a book for a particular person based on their taste because that's so much more meaningful. But there's some that are universally appealing.

ANNE: Do you want to hear the why?

KRISTINE: Yes. Yes, I do.

ANNE: All right. Well, good news, I hear your library has it.

KRISTINE: My library. I hope it's still on the shelf.

ANNE: Well, if not, I also hear you have plenty to read, but you know, you want to know what's going to strike your mood right now. Okay, speaking of, so we talked about... we talked about a lot of books, but the three we're left with are The Fine Art of Flying by Alexandra Andrews, Lightbreakers by Aja Gable, and Dear Monica Lewinsky by Julia Langbein. Kristine, what do you think? What do you intend to pick up next?

[00:48:11] KRISTINE: Oh, gosh, Dear Monica Lewinsky, just recency bias. You talked about that one last and it just... All of them sound incredible. I cannot wait to go out and get them as soon as possible, pick them up today on my way home from work if I can. But I just am so excited about that one. That one sounds unique and different, and I don't know... not that I wouldn't have picked it up because clearly I saw it at the library yesterday, and I might have, but I love a unique reading experience, something that I didn't expect to have that now I get to, and then I can share with everybody else. So thank you so much for doing this. This has been absolutely incredible.

ANNE: Oh, well, the pleasure's mine. Thank you for sharing your life and your reading life with us, and I'm so excited you're excited about what you can read next.

[00:48:59] Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kristine, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Kristine on Instagram and Goodreads. We have those links and the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Make sure you're following us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. That way you'll find each week's new episode automatically in your downloads. You'll find us on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext. That's where we feature each new episode along with other happenings, like our recent Patreon bonus episodes, news about events, photos of our new merch, and other assorted updates from What Should I Read Next HQ.

Join our email list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, and you'll hear from us each week with a peek at the latest episode and other news to know.

[00:49:49] Thank you to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin
• Jane Harper (try The Dry)
• The Likeness by Tana French
• Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt
• The Art Thief by Michael Finkel
• The Art Spy by Michelle Young
• Loved One by Aisha Muharrar
The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai
The Unseen World by Liz Moore
• Long Bright River by Liz Moore
• The God of the Woods by Liz Moore
• What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown
• Confessions by Catherine Airey 
Heart the Lover by Lily King
▵ A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhirst
• Castle of Water by Dane Huckelbridge
• Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke
• American Fantasy by Emma Straub
• Daughter of Egypt by Marie Benedict 
• The Egypt Game by Zilpha Keatley Snyder 
• The Fine Art of Lying by Alexandra Andrews
• Who Is Maud Dixon? by Alexandra Andrews 
• Lightbreakers by Aja Gabel
• The Ensemble by Aja Gabel
• Detour by Jeff Rake and Rob Hart
• Dear Monica Lewinsky by Julia Langbein
• The Rachel Incident by Caroline O’Donoghue
• Beartown by Fredrik Backman

• Please support our sponsors.

The post The perfect books for readers fascinated by museums, art, and the creative process appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

This week, I’m sharing an excerpt from our 2026 Summer Reading Guide Live Unboxing. To mark our 15th Guide, we’re inviting you to listen in as I tell you all about this year’s Minimalist Picks.

During our Summer Reading Guide Unboxing, I go through every book in the Guide and tell you why out of the hundreds of books I considered for the Guide that year, these are the ones I landed on. What makes them interesting, what is each story like, what kinds of readers might they appeal to? I talk about ALL the books, and I do that in order, category by category. In today’s excerpt, we’re sharing what I have to say about the six titles in this year’s Minimalist Guide.

I hope this gives you an exciting preview of our 15th Summer Reading Guide.

This year’s complete Guide includes 35 new-for-2026 releases, our popular “For fans of” backlist recommendations, Awesome on Audio picks, reading retreat best practices from our team, and a splashy anniversary feature looking back on 15 years of the SRG.

If you’ve not yet gotten your Guide, you can do that now or anytime with instant digital delivery. Your a la carte purchase or membership also grants you access to our video Unboxing of the entire Guide. We’re also offering a professionally printed guide, delivered straight to your mailbox in the U.S. These are shipping now: visit our shop at ⁠modernmrsdarcy.com/shop⁠ to order yours. That’s where you’ll also find retreat-worthy merch, like our cozy new sorority sweatshirt, a brand new hat that I hope brings a smile to your face, restocked book darts, stickers, totes, and more more.

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

This week, I’m sharing an excerpt from our 2026 Summer Reading Guide live unboxing. Our 15th guide and its corresponding unboxing are out in the world and available now to readers everywhere. If you don't have yours yet, visit modernmrsdarcy.com/srg, that's for Summer Reading Guide, to get in on our summer reading action.

[00:01:00] To mark this, our 15th guide, today I'm inviting you to listen in as I tell you all about the minimalist picks from this year's guide. We've been talking about Summer Reading Guide unboxing around here since 2018, when we held our first one. During unboxing, I go through every book in the Summer Reading Guide and tell you why, out of the hundreds of books I considered including in the guide that year, these are the ones I landed on. What makes them interesting? What is each story like? What kinds of readers might they appeal to? Those are the questions I'm answering. And during unboxing, I talk about all the books in the guide, and I do that in order, category by category.

In today's excerpt, our partners at Studio D have grabbed what I have to say about the six titles in this year's minimalist guide so you can listen in. This year, those books are The One Day You Were My Husband by Rosie Walsh, Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan, Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy, Land by Maggie O'Farrell, The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders, and Whistler by Ann Patchett.

[00:02:04] If you've already received your guide as a member of one of our communities or as an a la carte purchaser, I hope you're enjoying it and are enjoying curating your summer reading list. If you've not yet gotten your guide, you can do that now or any time with instant digital delivery. Your à la carte purchase or membership also grants you access to that video unboxing of the entire guide, not just the six titles we're previewing today.

Our Summer Reading Guide isn't about persuading you what you should read this season. That is not what we're about here. It's not what we do. I am not here to tell you how you should spend your precious reading time. I am here to help you, as I am able, determine how you might spend that precious reading time in a way that you feel really good about.

And this year, our reading retreat theme was born of the desire to come alongside you as you discover potentially good books for you that let you escape into new worlds, and enrich your life in meaningful ways, and find satisfying and joyful reading experiences all summer long.

[00:03:05] This year's guide includes 35 new for 2026 releases publishing between April and August that I have read every word of. They've been organized ... Uh, why the passive voice? I have organized them into offbeat and a little bit whimsical categories to help you think differently about what books may be right for you this summer.

I've included our popular For Fans Of backlist recommendations for every title, Awesome on Audio picks, Reading Retreat best practices from our whole team, and a splashy anniversary feature looking back on 15 years of our Summer Reading Guide. I hope today's episode gives you an exciting preview of our 15th guide. To get the whole thing, go to modernmrsdarcy.com/srg for Summer Reading Guide. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/srg.

As we did last year, we are also offering the guide professionally printed, delivered straight to your mailbox in the US. These are shipping out now. If you want one, visit our shop at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop and order yours.

[00:04:09] We took pre-orders on this. If you pre-ordered, you're getting one, but Will Bogel ordered several hundred extra printed guides. If you're lucky, we will still have one in stock for you, but if you want one, please don't wait. Go order that now at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

We also have retreat-worthy merch in that shop, like our cozy new sorority-style sweatshirt that I've been dreaming of offering you all for years, a brand-new hat that I hope brings a smile to your face, it sure did to mine and to others when I wear it, restocked book darts, stickers, totes, and more at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

All right. Without further ado, let's get to the books.

[00:04:51] Next, we have The One Day You Were My Husband by Rosie Walsh from Pamela Dorman on May 19th. Walsh writes these distinctive kinds of relationship-driven thrillers like Laura Dave and Gillian McAllister, if you know those writers. And this one is part mystery, part love story.

And like several books in this summer's guide, as you'll hear, it asks, "Can we ever really know the ones we love?" This is also about the power of first love, and asks this related question: "What if you move on after the love of your life disappears, but then that person comes back when you didn't think they would?"

So here's what happens. In 2010, Carrie marries Johan on a Thailand beach. Even though she hasn't known him long, she's sure he's the love of her life. But before the wedding night is even over, authorities raid their wedding and arrest him for a drug crime. It is seriously giving Brokedown Palace, if you ever were traumatized by that movie like 20 years ago.

[00:05:47] So, eventually Johan, who thinks he's going to be in prison basically for forever, begs her to leave him there, she should move back to the UK and get on with her life because she's a kickass surgeon-in-training, she has a promising future. He wants a good life for her, even if it's one without him.

So flash-forward, 12 years later, it's 2022, she's married with six-year-old twins, and she's looking up rentals for a work trip coming up, and on Airbnb, there's Johan as an Airbnb host in Sweden. And she's never once looked him up. She didn't want to torture herself, and she knew if/when he got out, he would contact her, but he didn't. He's alive and well. He's living in his native Sweden. He never breathes a word. She wants answers. Like, what happened? And she's going to get them. And I inhaled this so fast because I wanted to know what happened.

[00:06:41] GINGER HORTON: I can't wait for this next category, though, because... now you're speaking my summer language.

ANNE: Well, I'm glad to hear it. Here's what I did with the categories this year. I really wanted to do something a little more fun. In some of our older guides, we just had categories that were a little more bonkers, but for that to work, I felt like we needed a lot of categories that were very niche and bonkers.

And so, as is always the case, many of these books could have been sorted into multiple categories. In Seaside Stories, we have romance, family saga, romance, mm, literary fiction, but we put them here in Seaside Stories instead.

We're going to start with Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan, out from Putnam on May 26th. Sometimes, I don't know if this happens to you, but sometimes I think, "You know what I really want right now? An Annabel Monaghan novel." And I picked this up when I was in that kind of mood, and it did not disappoint.

[00:07:39] When I'm feeling that way, I want to see big-hearted, likable characters living in worlds I want to spend time in who are going to deal with their big stuff, or at least most of it, before the story's over. And I loved Dolly. Annabel Monaghan says in her notes, "Thank you to the woman named Dolly who came through the signing line at one of my events, and I went, 'Dolly, what a nice name!'"

Dolly here is 39, pessimistic about romantic love, but bursting with love for her family and friends. She has understandable abandonment issues. One thing she learned early is love is fickle, but debts stick around. Her dad tried to, last-ditch effort to make her mom stay was to invest in this expensive business venture her mom believed in. They're still paying off the loan. Her mom's long gone.

Dolly is not thrilled to be back in Whitfield, Rhode Island, her hometown, for the summer, but her family needs her. They are already struggling in all the ways when the house catches on fire, and suddenly they need 50 grand for a new roof right now.

[00:08:43] So enter Stuart Whitfield. He is handsome, local, most eligible bachelor who is publicly humiliated when Page Six shares photos of his cheating fiancée. What's worse, she's cheating with a Yankee, and everybody in Whitfield is Red Sox fans. So right after the bad news breaks, Dolly rescues him by stumbling upon him in his hour of need and changes his tire. The paparazzi snap a photo. They say that he's rescuing her, but the press is fantastic.

So as things go in such books, he wants to know, can Dolly help him out for the whole summer? Because he has a PR problem that she could be amazing for. She says, "Sure, pay for my roof," and they make a deal, and then Dolly catches feelings.

I loved the scenery, the relationship they build just tiny exchange by tiny exchange, the family fish business, and also Dolly is baking as love for others and also therapy for herself throughout the book. And I just found it so fun and soothing to read about.

[00:09:45] We're going to start with a book club book. We're reading this in July, Sisters of a Halved Heart by Tara Roy, out from Algonquin on June 2nd. My reading journal says, "Gah, I love this." When the story opens, Mira is just arrived back in Brooklyn from London. She fled there several years ago to get away from her half-sister, Joy, who betrayed her in dramatic fashion.

Something I think Roy does really well here is make the situation believable. Because it sounds big in headlines, like how could that end up happening? And I feel like she sells it. Joy just wants things to be okay again, whatever that means, and Mira is like, "Nope, there is no..." Like, "Are you... No, there is no way. Don't you know what you did to me?" That's where each sister is. We slowly learn what happened and where things stand now. Their elderly father, whose health is not great, is a big factor in their dynamic.

[00:10:40] This story has a really strong sense of place. It's so atmospheric. Many, many real locations in Brooklyn and Manhattan are name-checked, and I Googled probably every single one. I cued up the numerous referenced songs and mapped all the real locations. And also this one has minor characters that feel more fully developed than you see in many novels. I really enjoyed that as well. There are platonic and romantic love stories, not just the love triangle at its core, which is what we get with those sisters.

It's set in the literary world, as Mira works for a literary magazine, like a really, like, niche, fresh literary magazine with a lot of cachet right now. And there's a really believable exploration of how the sisters seek to move forward after the betrayal.

There's a literary mystery threaded through the pages. Mira works at that magazine, and a debut novel that is stunning ends up on her desk. The author's anonymous. She feels like it was sent to her as a message, like a very personal message. And figuring out who wrote it and why is a big part of the story.

[00:11:47] Oh, Ginger, you know I have mixed feelings about epilogues, and I can't wait to talk about this one with you. I know many of you despise epilogues. Some of you really love them. I was just like, "Ugh, dang. I can't wait to talk about it." So discussable. That's a big reason it's our July Book Club selection.

GINGER: Can't wait.

ANNE: Let's talk about Maggie O'Farrell. Land is out from Knopf on June 2nd. This is inspired by O'Farrell's great-great-grandfather, who worked as a laborer for Ireland's Ordnance Survey not long after the Great Hunger in the mid-19th century.

In Land, her ancestor becomes Tomás, a skilled mapmaker who works with the Ordnance Survey. It's 1865. He's brought his son Liam along. The goal is to map the whole of Ireland. And they're working for British colonialists. They are brutal masters, the Brits.

[00:12:41] But as their work nears completion, Tomás stumbles upon an enchanted spring in a magical little copse, and when he comes out, he is changed, and the impact touches every character and rolls down through the entire book.

If you love O'Farrell, you'll see a lot of her hallmarks here. She excels at giving a bird's-eye view of her characters' lives and their relationships. Here we have the main characters' perspectives, that of all the family members, but also those of an unborn baby, a talking fish, the family dog, a skylark, a house. She also has this gift for portraying these moments where you can see how the characters are orbiting each other. You can see the near misses, and you can see how they could connect, if only, but the characters themselves do not see it.

[00:13:34] The writing is lush and gorgeous. And there is so much here that is deeply life-affirming, but it's also consistently devastating. There is so much sorrow and sadness. This is also a diaspora story. I really enjoyed it. Talking about it makes me want to read it again.

Next, we have The Great Wherever, a book club pick by Shannon Sanders out from Henry Holt on July 7th. This is a debut and a ghost story, but not in the way you might think. Our main character is Aubrey. She's 32. She's broke. She's fresh off a breakup. It actually happens in the early pages. Oh, you do not feel for the guy. What a jerk. She's grieving her dad's death, and then she is stunned to find out that when her dad died, he left her his share of the family farm in Tennessee. What she doesn't know is that the instant she gained an interest in the farm, she became extremely interesting to four meddlesome, judgmental ghosts who are deeply invested in that property and now track her every move.

[00:14:37] Much of the story is told from the perspective of the ghosts who are... I mean, they're so funny. I love the ghosts. And they provide welcome levity to what at times is a dark story. But the reason the ghosts track her every move is... well, they explain it to you. The moment a relative is designated a farm inheritor, the rooms of their minds belong to the ghosts. Like the ghosts can enter them. They say it's like a key turning in the lock. The ghosts also describe this as watching the best reality TV, seeing what Aubrey and her ilk are up to.

So Aubrey travels to Tennessee to connect with these family members she's never really known. She sees the farm. She considers an offer from a big, bad corporation. The family is aghast she would consider selling, but she thinks it could be the answer to her money troubles. And while that story is unfolding in the present tense, the ghosts are unspooling the history of the land and how they came to haunt it. This is so discussable, which is why it is our August Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club selection.

[00:15:33] Next, we have Whistler from Ann Patchett. This story begins with a chance encounter at the Met that reunites 53-year-old Daphne with a man she hasn't seen since she was nine years old. That's her former stepfather, Eddie.

Eddie vanished from her life after the two were in a terrible car wreck together, and much of the book is finding out what happened minute by minute during that car wreck. It sent them both to the hospital, they landed on different floors, and by the time they checked out, Daphne's mother had filed for divorce from Eddie, and Daphne would not see this man again for 40-something years. And she's never understood why. Her mother would never talk about what happened. But after bumping into Eddie, the two are overjoyed to be in each other's lives again, and there's this real joyful sense of making up for lost time, and Daphne learns what really happened.

[00:16:27] There's lots of art and books in these pages. Daphne is an English teacher to high school girls. She loves her job, the books, and the girls. Eddie is an editor for a big five publisher, and Daphne's mother used to be a publicist who long ago married one of her authors who's terrible and so much fun to read about.

This story is so finely textured. Like, when we were walking Daisy, I found myself telling Will in detail about a collection of rabbit paintings appearing in these pages. I also Googled lots and lots of Hockney.

Now, the horse on the cover is only in the novel for a couple of pages. It's not a horse book. The horse is a horse and also a symbol. And because it's a symbol, I had this terrible moment. I know many of you have big feelings, whatever kind of feelings, but big feelings about Ann Patchett novel endings. And at first, I thought she was doing her ending out of left field thing. I was really worried. But I was very happy with the way this book ended.

[00:17:24] And I have been itching to read this again since about a week after I finished it, which might have been about the Christmas holiday. I think that's high praise. Maybe it's not the book for you, maybe it is, but for me, I think it's going to be best of the year material. Not the single best, but like top 12, I think.

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed that snippet from our 2026 Summer Reading Guide unboxing. To get your digital copy of the guide right now and enjoy the full recording of our unboxing, visit us at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

And if you'd like to order your copy of the professionally printed magazine version of the guide and check out all our new merch, visit modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

Follow our show on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext and tag us in your summer reading posts and stories. We want to see what you're reading.

[00:18:19] That said, we do like to honor those who have made the investment in our team and our work by purchasing the guide or joining one of our membership communities. Please remember that the 2026 Summer Reading Guide is exclusively for our members and a la carte purchasers, and please avoid spoilers when sharing about the Summer Reading Guide on social media or elsewhere online. Thank you for supporting the work we do.

Join our email list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter to keep up with our latest news, events, and episodes.

Follow or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, whatever your favorite podcast player may be. Subscribing makes a big difference to us in the quickly changing landscape of podcast production. Thank you so much for taking a moment to check your settings.

[00:19:04] Thank you to all the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager Ginger Horton who unboxed these books with me for today's episode, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• The One Day You Were My Husband by Rosie Walsh
• Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan
• Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy
• Land by Maggie O’Farrell
• The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders
• Whistler by Ann Patchett

• The 2026 Minimalist Summer Reading Guide
• Please support our sponsors.

The post Anne unboxes the 2026 Minimalist Summer Reading Guide appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

I am delighted to welcome our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club Community Manager, Ginger Horton, back to the show to talk about this year’s 15th Summer Reading Guide and dive into all things summer reading.

Ginger has been collaborating on the Guide for many years now, and she played an integral role in selecting our 2026 reading retreat theme. As you’ll hear today, she’s also the reason we started hosting our annual Unboxing live events. We’re going to get into that in detail.

Ginger is also a co-discoverer with readers, though, because just a few hours before we recorded, she saw the first draft of this year’s Summer Reading Guide. She and I talk about what we love most about this year’s Guide and how you can make sure you get a copy. We hope you’ll enjoy this conversation and it sparks your excitement for this week’s release of our 15th annual Guide.

We are sharing the excitement of our upcoming 15th Summer Reading Guide, releasing this Thursday, May 14th. If you are already a member of our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club or our What Should I Read Next? Patreon communities, or you purchased your à la carte ticket, you are all set to get the Guide on Thursday and attend Thursday’s Unboxing events at either 1:00 PM or 8:00 PM. And if neither time works for you, never fear: we’ll have the recording available not too long after the events. During the Unboxing, I go through all the titles in the Guide one by one, sharing more about why I chose each title, what the reading experience is like, and what kind of reader may most enjoy each book. Find out all the details you need to know at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg.

[00:00:00] GINGER HORTON: I was telling Anne before we started this call that I had gone through as I proofread and noted the 15 books that I want to read for the summer based on my own reading intentions.

ANNE BOGEL: 15 for 15.

GINGER: 15 for 15. I did not do that on purpose, but you know I love when that happens.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:44] This week we're giving you the information you need to find out about a whole lot of reads. We are sharing the excitement of our upcoming Summer Reading Guide — that will be our 15th edition — releasing this Thursday, May 14th. I am joined today by the absolutely perfect guest for this episode, if I do say so myself. That is our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club community manager, Ginger Horton, and we can't wait to tell you more.

If you are already a member of our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club or our What Should I Read Next? Patreon communities or you purchased your à la carte ticket, you are all set to get the guide on Thursday and attend Thursday's unboxing events at either 1:00 PM or 8:00 PM if you'd like to join us live. Those times are Eastern, New York City time.

[00:01:29] We are holding two book parties, and we call them book parties not because they're parties in the traditional sense. They're, you know, informative literary events, but we call them parties because they are so much fun. But there are two events happening live, so you can choose the one that suits you best, or some readers join us for both. And if neither time works for you, never fear. We have the recording for you available beginning very late in the day on May 14th, but any time thereafter, you have instant access.

Summer Reading Guide veterans make a big deal of unboxing for good reason. You'll hear Ginger and I talk more about that today. Readers do things like take the day off work, gather with friends, or plan whole weekend getaways to different cities because of unboxing and the Summer Reading Guide.

[00:02:19] With this year's theme of reading retreat, you could even create your own special day to watch the event, peruse your guide, and plan your to-be-read list. If you've never been to one of our unboxings before, here's what to expect.

I go through all the titles in the guide one by one, sharing more about why I chose each title, what the reading experience is like, and what kind of reader may most enjoy each book. I get to share more than I can say in print and answer your questions about tone, theme, content, comps, and more.

There's still time to purchase your à la carte ticket, and we do recommend not waiting until the last minute, although you could, but less stress is good for your reading life. Ticket holders get a copy of the beautiful digital guide in PDF form and are invited, if they so choose, to attend our live unboxings. Find out all the details you need to know at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg, that's for Summer Reading Guide. Modernmrsdarcy.com/srg.

[00:03:18] Readers, today I am delighted to welcome our book club community manager, Ginger Horton, to the show to talk about our Summer Reading Guide. If Ginger's name sounds familiar, well, lucky you. You may recognize her from our recent episode where she helped to recommend titles to Cheryl Drury, or because you're an MMD book clubber, a listener in our Patreon community, or just like to hang out in these parts.

Ginger's been on the podcast a time or, I don't know, six since you first made your debut a few years back, Ginger, and we couldn't believe you hadn't been on till then. But today, Ginger's here, and we're going to dive into all things summer reading.

And I love having you on the show today, Ginger, because I feel like you're the perfect bridge between what I'm holding in my brain for the 2026 Summer Reading Guide that has been, in one sense, in the works for many years. When like authors I know and love first mention, like, "Oh, in a few years I'm going to have a book come out about X," and I've thought, "Oh, I'm going to put that in a spreadsheet somewhere to remind me in four years that book is coming, because I want to read it, and maybe it's going to be great for the Summer Reading Guide."

[00:04:26] So I've been thinking like way long-term and have put this thing together piece by piece. But you have been collaborating on the guide for many years now, and were an integral part about deciding not just what our specific vision for 2026 would be with the reading retreat theme, but also really helping me think through how to present those ideas.

And we're going to get into that in detail. But Ginger, in one sense, you're a creator, but in another sense, you're a co-discoverer with readers because it's just been like hours since you saw the first draft of this year's Summer Reading Guide. So thank you for being the perfect guest and coming to What Should I Read Next? today. Welcome.

GINGER: I love this time of year. Anne, I'm so glad to be back in this space because I do... I have a complicated relationship with summer reading. But I love summer. We might get into that. I love summer.

ANNE: No, we're going to get into it right now. So, for those who don't know, tell us more.

[00:05:21] GINGER: Okay. Well, sometimes, not the last couple of years, but sometimes I have had a real dip in my reading life in the summer, and I have theories about why that happens. But the Summer Reading Guide is a resource that I start using in May, but sometimes it takes a long time for me to enjoy all of it because I make my way piece by piece through the year sometimes.

And so, yeah, I love holding out as long as I can. And as our team has grown, that has been available to me. I hold out as long as I can and kind of look at the guide as late as possible in the process, partly because my eyes are fresher to catch any typos or whatever, but partly because I love the delight and the discovery of to see what you have read, what ends up on the guide, hearing you, like you mentioned, four years coming, one year coming, this book is finally coming out, we have a release date, and now hearing why I might want to read it.

[00:06:13] ANNE: Well, I'm glad to hear it. There are 35 books in this year's guide once again, and they are broken down in two categories. We have things like historical happenings, literary and contemporary fiction that this year we've done something fun with. It's on a spectrum from serious and earnest all the way over to playful and quirky.

We have books that are about messy, messy relationships. And yes, that word is repeated, and I do mean messy in the best sense when it comes to fiction. We have a category for magical and strange. We have seaside stories, if I didn't already say that, mystery and suspense, memoir and nonfiction. There is good stuff in this year's guide.

So we want to create a guide that is compact and has lots of options, but not so many, not the thousands of titles coming out this summer or hundreds that are on my, like, I could consider this for the guide reading list, but really whittle it down to some likely to bring you reading joy this summer all in one little package. And we have fun features as well. We'll talk about that more in today's episode.

[00:07:17] But my friend, Nikki, shout-out Nikki, gave me the gift of describing back to me what the guide was to so many readers. She said, reading time is precious. Like, we all have... I mean, some of you tell us about how much you're enjoying the switch between retiring from a full-time job and becoming a retiree and having so much more reading time that it still feels abundant to you if that transition is new. But the vast majority of us feel like so many books, so little time is a serious dilemma, and the thing that really stands between us and the reading life we wish we could have.

And my friend was telling me how the guide every year is just such a gateway to reliable reading joy because if you're going to take your precious reading time and spend it metaphorically on only a handful of books, you want to make sure those books bring you a memorable experience.

[00:08:10] And having someone hold your hand as you make those choices can feel really, really good. And that's what we've done every year in the guide for... this will be our 15th edition. If you told me back in 2012, "This is the first of 15 and counting," I mean, I think it would've exploded my little readerly head. But here we are.

And every year since the second year, I have read every book in the guide cover to cover, and the reason that is, is the first year, I remember highlighting some new releases that I was really excited about, that I was really looking forward to spending my reading time on. And about half of them, I not only was disappointed, but was kinda angry that my precious reading time had been spent in that way, and I resolved then, like, I... In this context for the Summer Reading Guide, you know, guidance implied, I'm only going to talk about the books that I have read and can vouch for.

[00:09:09] And just because I've read a book does not mean you will love it as well. But in the guide, in that unboxing I try to be real specific about what my reading experience was like, not to tell you what yours will be like or that you should want that experience, but to help you wrap your head around, is this... I mean, is this a train I want to get on this summer? If I only have so much reading time at my disposal, how do I want to use it, and do I want this book to be in the mix?

And if you have questions, like, people will say things like, "Well, you know, I'm not feeling really sweary this summer. Can you guide me in that direction?" Or, "I need a book that's going to leave me in a hopeful space, and I'm thinking about X title. Is it a good fit?" I can answer those questions because I've read them all. Ginger, what would you add to that?

[00:09:54] GINGER: I think that we are all in a place that we could not have collectively seen 15 years ago, and that is, I feel this, that the marketing dollars are working harder than ever. I know that there is, I guess, lore in the publishing world that they don't quite know what's happening and what to do. But I can tell you, I feel the impacts of it because I see the same books, I see the big book list, everything that's getting published, and that does not mean that those books are right for me.

I love the publishing industry. I'm so glad they're marketing books. I am cheering any books that anybody wants to put in front of me. But that doesn't mean that's a book I want to read just because it's in front of me. And so, yeah, I think that having a trusted, guided source is so important.

When I walk into my independent bookstore, I know which of the staff members write those little cards that I am going to seek out, and I know which ones, God bless them, they're doing great work there, but I do not want to read the books that they suggest.

ANNE: Not your book twin?

[00:10:48] GINGER: They're not my book twin. That's such a helpful thing to know, actually. And like you said, sometimes that's even specific to the year. It doesn't mean that that's forever a no for me, but that can be tailored to my reading summer. Summer reading is precious time, like you said.

ANNE: We hear that. Also something that's unique about our guide is since 2019, shout out to Katie who designed our first one, we've done a beautiful user-friendly magazine style that you can print the whole thing if you want. You can mark it up. But it's just a really fun way to engage with something that a lot of people really enjoy and look forward to every year. And that is their summer reading... oh, what's a word that I can use that's not curriculum? Because that sounds a little too much like school.

[00:11:34] To some of us, anything that hints of school, like you want homework. You wish we'd make worksheets for your summer reading. But for others of you, you want nothing that smacks of that. But as you're imagining what literary joys could await you this summer, the magazine style can be a really fun way to dip in.

And since 2020... I mean, we've had loose themes for a while. Boot camp in 2024 was the first year where we leaned hard into a theme. Last year's was road trip. This year's is reading retreat. And we thought that would be such a lovely theme for right now. Ginger, you want to say more?

GINGER: It does. It feels like a sigh of relief. I love just the exhale that a reading retreat is, whether that is a literal one, as Anne mentioned. Some people build the start of their summer around the Summer Reading Guide, taking days off, booking an Airbnb, traveling to a location. But I think even if it's just figurative. I remember two summers ago, we had a specific Genius Moves class that was all about summer Genius Moves, and one reader said that she has this hour of the day that she opens up the front door, she has a screen on it, and she pretends she's reading on like a screened-in porch because, "No bugs, all books," was what she said.

ANNE: No bugs, all books.

[00:12:55] GINGER: Give me 20 minutes. That somehow you are creating this space for your reading life. And we keep hearing that recently from readers that, again, the publishing landscape is overwhelming in the best possible way. We love that big book party, but what we also want is just space to slow down, to savor.

Man, I think about all those summers when you were a kid, speaking of homework, where you would prop your feet up, you'd turn on the ceiling fan, maybe just me, I lived in the American South, and you just like had this long, expansive time to read. And that is the vibe I'm going for this summer.

ANNE: Oh, and you know, you may hear us say words like peace and calm, but I want you to know that is adamantly not code for boring. We are talking about a really energetic kind of entry into a space that you couldn't be happier to be in. But that is anti-frantic, not frenetic in any way, no FOMO allowed. What we're looking for is to cultivate vibes that feel really warm and supportive and enthusiastic and abundant.

[00:14:05] Our desire with our reading retreat Summer Reading Guide magazine is to come alongside you and help you discover good books that let you escape into... peaceful, new world? No. But that you would seep into interesting new worlds that you want to be in, and also enrich your life in meaningful ways. We are a bit nerds. You are going to go places and learn things with the books in this year's Summer Reading Guide, but on your terms. And you can choose how nerdy or escapist you wish to be.

And it's Modern Mrs Darcy, What Should I Read Next?. We believe in nerdy escapism, but we just really want to help you craft a season full of abundance, ease, and joy, whatever it is that you want in your summer, and also one that puts a heaping helping of potential four and five-star books on your readerly horizons. That's been a goal for years now.

[00:14:57] We just recently did a survey in these parts, and I wasn't really expecting the biggest shot of readerly joy for readers to be to read a book that I would give four or five stars to. The other thing most likely to give readers a big shot of readerly joy was finding out an author they love has a new book coming out. I'm certain some of those are in the guide among these 35 books.

Some of them you may already know. Like, "Oh, I've been looking forward to that author's new books." But I think some of them will be surprises, just because it's hard to know about everything happening in publishing world.

And also, we have a feature like we have in several years past that's books from authors you know and love that includes titles coming out between May and August from authors that you may already have read previous books in their series, or that you may have already read previous books by them, and we want you to know they're coming even if they're not specifically featured as one of the 35 titles in the guide.

[00:15:55] GINGER: Like Anne mentioned, anti-boring is absolutely what we're after. But there is nothing boring about sinking into that comfortable reading chair or comfortable reading spot, and then your heart beating out your chest because you cannot stop turning the page. So, absolutely, comfort can mean multiple things, but there is no more comfortable place for me to be.

I was telling Anne before we started this call that I had gone through as I proofread and noted the 15 books that I want to read for the summer based on my own reading intentions.

ANNE: 15 for 15.

GINGER: 15 for 15. I did not do that on purpose, but you know I love when that happens. And a good many of those, though, are the heart-pounding ones, or what I expect, yeah, kind of the page-turner ones. There might be some juicy, funny... A lot of these titles are really not at all like boring, pastoral vibes. They are absolutely, I'm going to power through those in two days straight.

[00:16:51] ANNE: Mm-hmm. There's definitely a purposeful mix of the heavy and the light, the long and the short. Lots of different vibes and settings this year, which we always try to do, but I don't know, life is hard. Good books help. I want to be sure I'm putting books for a wide variety of readerly experiences on your readerly horizons.

And for the reading retreat, I really wanted to communicate a vibe that was easy, but also really, really inviting, and that could help you imagine yourself taking place in a retreat that was either solo or communal. And bringing that to life with imagery was really fun.

I mean, I talked in a recent newsletter about how I really enjoy going to Trader Joe's and buying all the snacks. You should've seen our family group chat. Everyone was so enthusiastic about the leftovers they were hopefully going to get to eat, which they did, and it was great.

[00:17:51] And I hired a local photographer, shout out Laura, who was amazing. Ginger, I love collaborating with our team on so much. I love that. I mean, it was so life-giving to work with someone. Laura got it. Thank you, Laura.

GINGER: I love that.

ANNE: We were just arranging our snacks and our journals and our books and our blankets and our snacks and more snacks and our drinks and everything. And I had a few fellow readers on hands to help conjure the communal scenes. It was so fun to think about what would be inspiring and idea giving for you all this summer. I'm really happy with the results.

[00:18:28] GINGER: We had a Pinterest board at one point, and I think it's pretty hard to top a Pinterest board. But I think the way the guide looks, man, I gotta tell you, I think it might be better than a Pinterest board.

ANNE: I will pass that on to Laura. That's high praise.

GINGER: Shout out to Laura.

ANNE: So we want you to know if you're like, "I'm not doing a reading retreat this summer," that's cool. Like, we did one in the pages. So you could have the fun of flipping through that experience without thinking... Like, no actual retreat required to find good books in the guide this summer.

But this is a milestone for us. I mean, we've said that it's... Ginger chose 15 books for 15 years. This is our 15th Summer Reading Guide, and this is our year of celebrations around here. You've heard us say that this year we're celebrating 10 years of Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club. We hit 10 years of the podcast in January. Let's see. This is 15 years of the blog as well.

[00:19:23] GINGER: I love an anniversary. That's so much fun to talk about. You can absolutely celebrate, you know, four years into something. Why not? But there's just really something nice about those 10 and 15-year numbers.

ANNE: Yeah. And we had fun with 15. There's an anniversary feature in this year's guide where I walked down memory lane and really did the hard work of finding the original Summer Reading Guides, which are purposely not just something you can click on Modern Mrs Darcy and access. But there's a feature that walks you through, many of the covers from past years, going back to the first edition. And I recommend backlist books through the years because we love a juicy new release. But we also love a book that you can get your hands on immediately at your public library because there's not a bonkers wait list for it.

[00:20:14] And because we know you'll like backlist picks so much, I mean, as do you and I, Ginger.

GINGER: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: Like, we get this. Every title in the guide has a handful of "for fans of" picks is what... They're FFO picks in my reading journal, that are titles that would be really nice flight picks that just play really nicely with the new title I'm recommending in the Summer Reading Guide.

Sometimes it's because of setting, like all the books take place on the Camino de Santiago, for example. Sometimes it's because of the genre, but it's a book that has a similar tone or emotional feel to the book I'm recommending. So that you can both get a sense in this like really shorthand fashion of what the new book is like, but also, you can do a "Hmm, if I enjoyed reading this one. What should I read next?" kind of thing with all these books. It's just another way to help you discover older titles you may enjoy.

[00:21:14] GINGER: I love those bonuses because they do feel like a sneaky way to get a couple more books. You could build a personal curriculum out from there. And also, it's such a great way to see, "Oh, I liked both of those books. This one's going on my TBR list."

ANNE: That's what it's designed for. Ginger, would you like to do the honors of telling everyone about our team feature for this year?

GINGER: Yes. I absolutely love this. I might have already let Genius Moves tumble off of my tongue, because this is the time of year where I think it really occurs to me to think in a very specific way about my reading life. I hope to be intentional throughout the year, but that way is to get some wins. And Genius Moves are those short little pithy ways that we win in our reading lives.

[00:22:01] This started actually back at an in-person reading retreat for book club a while back, and we asked all the attendees to bring one quick win, one genius move for their reading life. They were so varied, so much fun, and so helpful that we've kind of used that as shorthand for the rest of book club. So we'll have a class every so often with just these collection of genius moves.

And so we asked the team to contribute their best genius move. Those are so much fun to read, to get tips, to see those little tiny tweaks. You're not going to overhaul your reading life with a genius move, but you might make one tweak that allows you to get, oh, let's say 30 more minutes of reading time on your family vacation. Hint, hint, that's mine. A sneaky way that I do it. I love to see the variety and the creativity of readers especially, man, our team members really came through. So that's going to be such a fun feature.

[00:22:57] ANNE: I really enjoyed that tip personally. Personally. Because 30 more minutes of reading time, especially... I mean, I'm an introvert.

GINGER: Same.

ANNE: So the way you worked that idea into your genius move, I really appreciated it.

GINGER: Well, you'll have to open your guide. I wish I knew the page number. It would fall off my tongue, but open your guide to the page with genius moves and find out what that would be.

ANNE: Well, it's in the beautiful table of contents. Because this year's guide is so li- It's just so pretty. It continues our same aesthetic, but the design is a little bit different this year. It's us, but it's different. I think you'll really enjoy it, whether this is your first guide or your 15th.

Let's talk a little more about the books.

GINGER: Yes.

[00:23:43] ANNE: There are 35 this year in those categories we talked about, and I want you to know there will be a Minimalist Summer Reading Guide this year. It'll go on the blog on May 14th, and then our first Tuesday What Should I Read Next? episode after the Summer Reading Guide releases, that's on Tuesday, May 19th. That will be me unboxing the Minimalist Guide.

And when it occurred to me to do this little preview episode in this way, I thought, "Why on earth have we not done it this way before?" It makes so much sense. But Unboxing means I'll give you a little more color and flavor, and you'll be able to hear the tone of my voice, a little more nuance, a little extra information, versus the short little blurb that will be on the blog.

But we're going to tell you what three of those books are right now. We don't do it this way every summer, but this summer we happen to be reading three new 2026 releases that are all in the Summer Reading Guide in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, and we announced those to our book clubbers a few weeks back in the middle of April, and we're going to tell you about all of them today. Da da-da-da.

[00:24:46] GINGER: I am so excited about these three titles. First of all, I think each one of them could totally stand on its own. But also, I think it's pretty representative of the breadth of the guide. I love that we are reading something that I think would be immediately hospitable to almost any reader. Just like that beach read, that airport read. You could pull this off the shelf, take it down, and it's going to just go down easy. But there's also a lot to talk about.

There is a more juicy, literary, family drama that's very discussable and a little nerdier, kind of midsummer. And then we sort of end our summer on a really avant-garde pick. There's ghosts, there's some more drama. I think this is so representative of what we do. A lot of fun, a lot of discussability, a lot of discoverability. And so Anne, would you like to do the honors and tell us which three books I've been obscurely describing?

[00:25:43] ANNE: I'd be delighted. In June, we're reading a romance author that I believe is no stranger to the vast majority of you. I am quoting Wallace Stegner all the time in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club. He has a fictional novelist in Crossing to Safety say, "Hard writing makes for easy reading." And ooh, this book goes down easy in the best sense.

Our author is Annabel Monaghan, joining us for a chat to talk about her new May release, Dolly All The Time, in late June. It's a seaside story with a big-hearted, fiercely loyal protagonist that so many of you are going to want to root for, who we're going to cheer on to see her get her happy ending. And that is all I'm going to say about that until unboxing. You can look it up, but that's all I'm going to say until unboxing. So that's June, Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan.

[00:26:37] In July, we're reading another book that I inhaled. My initial two-sentence review was, "What a juicy, delicious, lavish, atmospheric, messy-in-the-best-way love triangle of a book. My first from this author, but won't be my last." We are reading Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy. I just had very different expectations from Dolly All The Time. The tone and setting are totally different, but oh, I sucked this down so fast.

It's messy in the best way. It's in the messy, messy relationships category. Really interesting family drama that also has a wonderful supporting cast. I love the relationship between the female protagonist and her female best friend. There's a kid in the book who's perfect, brings out things in the other characters without feeling overdone or annoying.

[00:27:32] There's a literary mystery woven throughout, because the protagonist works at a literary magazine that has cachet, and there's a manuscript that is like knock-your-socks-off fantastic that appears unsolicited on our protagonist's desk because of her role at the magazine, and the question of who wrote it and why'd they send it to her permeates the whole book. And it does get resolved, and it's very satisfying.

Plus, Ginger, I told you, we both have mixed feelings about epilogues, but ooh-

GINGER: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: ...we're going to have a whole forum in book club about the epilogue for this book. I mean, I think I really liked it. I don't ever feel that way about epilogues, but I think I really liked it.

GINGER: I'm so nervous. But it's going to make for great discussion.

[00:28:21] ANNE: I'll tell you more about the specifics of this story at unboxing, but that's Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy, out in July.

And then August is our debut novel with those ghosts that Ginger was just talking about. This is The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders. It is a powerful, multi-generational family saga about inheritance, a family farm, and the meddlesome, gossipy, nose-in-your-business, opinionated, judgmental family ghosts that reside on the farm and have strong, strong opinions on the family members' lives as they're still buzzing around the property. It's hard to not keep going, because I just want to talk about all these books. But that's August, The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders. It's her first novel.

GINGER: I can't wait to talk about that one, too. I spent six years of my life in Memphis, and so I am so always happy to see Memphis on the page as well.

ANNE: Well, this fictional family farm is right down the road.

[00:29:26] GINGER: Love it. And like Anne said, this is the beginning of a bookish conversation, and so not only will we be talking more about those books in book club, but there will be bonus episodes in the Patreon space all summer long. And yeah, this is just the beginning of the chatter about the 35 books and more. You know, we'll continue to talk about books all summer long.

ANNE: Yes, we will. Ginger, you said you just went through the guide and marked down 15 titles you were especially interested in reading. I'm curious on just getting some commentary that's not spoilery, but was there anything in there you've already read, anything you previously knew about that you were really anticipating, anything you previously knew nothing about that especially piqued your interest? Readers want to know things.

GINGER: Yes. Yes. Okay, so the books that I am leaning towards seem to have like two or three themes going on. Number one, I have been in grad school this year, and I want to do two things for my reading life. I want to read those gentle, pastoral, soothing, but something you could put on a child's bookshelf in the Lake District in the pastoral times. I want to read gentle stuff, and I also want to read-

ANNE: That's very specific.

[00:30:36] GINGER: Well, it's so specific because there's a forum about personal curriculum in the book club, and people have been helping me put together my exact reading list. It involves Winnie-the-Pooh and The Secret Garden and things like that.

But I also want to read the buzziest of the buzziest. You said that people aren't feeling very sweary this year. Oh, I want controversy. I want drama. Bring on all of the sweary, art theft, juicy... That is exactly what I want. And several of the authors that are on the Summer Reading Guide I think are going to come through on that for me.

There are destinations that are places I want to go. There are authors that are always auto-buy authors for me. There is at least one author that I am a complete... No, two authors that I am a completist for, and one that I would love to be a completist for. So I want to go places, I want buzzy, I want controversy. And then, you know, I'll just top that off in the evenings with a gentle breeze and James Herriot kind of calling over the plains to me. So I think we can contain multitudes, but that is what I am hoping for for my summer reading life.

[00:31:44] ANNE: Ooh, I like your very specific vibes. Well, for years now, I've done a remix of the books in the back of the guide. I just want to put them in front of you in a different way than they're originally categorized so that if a book that was set in a category that's heavy on historical fiction didn't catch your eye, maybe if I describe it as a book that had music galore that would inspire you to make a playlist, maybe that would get your attention and reconsider a book that you had glossed over the first time. Because there is a lot of that this summer. There are quite a few specific books I read to vet for the guide, but four that made it into the guide, that there are so many artists and even specific tracks name-checked that I was like, "Well, okay. I just put down my book, but now I'm making dinner. I have to listen to these songs they've been talking about." So I really enjoyed that.

[00:32:37] There were a weird number of mentions and epigraphs from Rainer Maria Rilke, the patron saint of What Should I Read Next?, because we quote him at the end of every episode, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." There are five debut novels in this year's guide. The longest book is 592 pages. The shortest is under 100. There are… how many works in translation? There are four.

I'm going to tell you at Unboxing about the book that my 16-year-old saw sitting on the counter, one of those works in translation, and was like, "That looks cool. Would I like that? Can I take this to school?" So, you know, that made my heart sing.

We have books that are on the shorter side, like 224 or less. We have books on the longer side, 450 and up. Lots of books to take you around the world. I told you about the immersive books I gulp down in two days or sometimes... I was going to say closer to two hours. That's an exaggeration, but more like 24 hours. Yes, absolutely. Lots of thorny relationship dramas, a nice amount of magical realism. There's just lots of good stuff in this year's guide.

[00:33:41] GINGER: And aside from the books, both of our communities have so much fun stuff planned. We mentioned bonus episodes. Book club really comes alive in the summer. We have got our readers weekend, we have got Austin in August, and we have a really fun class planned for June that will involve a lot of team members, and a lot of tips for doing just what we hear that you all want to do, which is slow down and savor at certain points in your reading life. And so we're going to share a lot of strategies and tips for that.

So, we have got places in the community. If you want to not just read the books, but you want to talk about them, you want to talk about them with fellow readers, you want to celebrate your reading life and celebrate your reading wins, we would love to have you in either of those communities. They are both such warm and welcoming places. And especially in the summer, we know that we get people that kind of come in and out depending on their reading lives. Hello, so many teachers. We love you.

ANNE: I was just thinking that.

[00:34:39] GINGER: But if this sounds like a place that you would want to be in the summer, or any time of the year, this is a great time to jump in.

ANNE: And we really want to be at your service as you make your reading life work for you. And the Summer Reading Guide can absolutely be your beginning and your end of summer discovery, but it can also be the leaping-off point for summer of lots more discovery and enjoyment. So if you're interested in exploring more, I know many of you are… in our Patreon community, I just released a bonus episode a couple weeks back that was featuring April 2026 releases that I thought were 100% worth talking about, but were not in the pages of the Summer Reading Guide.

So I know many of you often read the guide thinking, "Is she going to include the whatever?" So preemptively, I'm telling you, here's some like early Summer Reading Guide-ish picks, and also if you're wondering where the new book by whoever is, it's not in. I can tell you now, it's right here. And if you want new releases that are already out, they are all out as of now.

[00:35:44] We also do a bonus Patreon episode that we also make available to all our book clubbers. This is always, for several years now, the first bonus after the guide releases, where I go really in-depth and answer so many Summer Reading Guide questions from unboxing and from our community comments in the wake of unboxing. And then our first Patreon mini matchmaking episode after the guide release will be specifically for Summer Reading Guide books, when you're saying, "Okay, Anne, this is what I've enjoyed lately. This is what I haven't. This is what I'm looking for." Readers will often tell me, "These are the Summer Reading Guide books I'm considering. What do you think?" And I'll tell you.

GINGER: It's one of the really nice things about this guide. And I have yet to discover in all the bookish worlds that I inhabit anyone who reads every book that they promote on the guide. And I just want to give you more props. I know you mentioned it, but it is so much work that you put in to reading, and not just vetting and making sure that they are right for the guide, but also the availability to answer questions for these communities to, you know, yeah, clock in, "No, that one probably wouldn't be right for you," or, "Yes, this one sounds right up your alley based on what you've told me." That is a huge part of the work that you put into this, and man, do we as readers get to benefit from that.

[00:37:00] ANNE: Well, one of our core values is trust. Sometimes you readers, our team members, hear me all the time refer back to the values that guide us as a team and me as a creator. And when it comes to trust, I feel like you need to know that I'm not just making stuff up or regurgitating marketing copy. Now, sometimes in our previews I'll say, "This is how the publisher is pitching it," and that is true, and I'll be very clear that I do not have the personal experience there. But in the guide, yeah, I have read every word, and I want you to know what you are getting from us. That's really important.

Maybe I should've started by saying thank you, Ginger. We work hard to make this really good, and I just really hope you all continue to find it a really useful tool, and, like my friend Nikki said, a gateway to reliable reading joy.

And I hadn't planned to talk about our philosophy, not just philosophy, but guidelines, laws about artificial intelligence that we have for our team, but it really just plays right into our team core value of trust. We want to be honest and forthright and dependable in our content, in its delivery.

[00:38:09] We are known, and we've worked hard to be known for our taste, whether or not you think it's good taste, I think you know it's my taste, and for our reliability in, you know, bringing news and opinions and ideas from the book world to you. We really want to celebrate the written word and the people who create the books we love to read. And we want you to know all these books are human-selected. We don't use generative AI. No ChatGPT, no Claude, no Gemini. No algorithms are picking these books. No any computers. No... I mean, I'm using my MacBook, okay? But machines are not writing our blurbs. We don't use digital tools to choose books for our guests or for our blog in any way. And not for the Summer Reading Guide either. All our work is our own.

[00:38:59] And this is the time-consuming, old-fashioned way, and y'all, it kills me to then see our stuff turned around and copied verbatim, and then... This is one of the reasons I'm not on Instagram anymore. It just makes me sad. But we do work hard to create good stuff that you enjoy reading or listening to. We take our reading lives and your reading lives... I hope at the same time, both we don't take ourselves seriously, but we take this stuff really seriously. Life is hard, and good books can be such a source of joy and connection and respite, that really energetic peace and rejuvenating calm, and we want that for you and think you deserve our best effort. And now I'm just going... I repeat myself for emphasis. I just repeat. I really mean it. You can tell because I keep saying it.

GINGER: It is fun work, but it is hard work. I was going to insert a joke here that you can not only trust that these are books that are picked by someone with taste, but you can also just trust that they are actually books that exist. Unlike one certain AI-generated book list that was traveling around the internet last summer. These all do exist.

[00:40:12] ANNE: Which was so funny and also so sad at the same time.

GINGER: Oh, such a moment. Such a moment in time, exactly. These all do exist. You can go to the bookstore and buy them or put them on your library holds list. We promise. That is our solemn vow.

ANNE: And that reminds me, just thinking about the generative AI, we do work really hard. It's expensive and costly in many ways, both financially, in time and energy and labor, to create good stuff for you. And we really ask that you respect the work that went into it. There's a page in the guide that shows all the covers, all the little thumbnail images. It's so pretty. Please don't put that on your Instagram. We would really like to keep that for the people who've gotten the guide.

And we hope you can understand that it hurts when our work is copied or misused, whether that's by the obvious plagiarism that has become more and more of an issue over the years, but also by feeding it for free to those large language models, like ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini. Please don't copy-paste our stuff in there. We don't want it to be used for training. We don't want it to be remixed, and we would be really grateful if you would refrain from any action that would result in our work being used for that kind of thing. We have a little note in the guide, but it's worth saying again.

[00:41:22] GINGER: This is the one time that imitation is not a sincere form of flattery. Well, I guess we've said a million trillion words about the guide, and so now if you're wondering where you can get that, Anne, you want to tell us?

ANNE: Oh, that does seem important.

GINGER: Yes. Tell us how one would get their hands on a copy digitally or a print guide, and an invite to that Unboxing. Hello, the big book party. I will start off by saying that it is a perk for Patreon members and book club members. If you are already in those spaces, you absolutely know that you are in the right spot. That will hit your inbox as it always has. It will be on all the pages, you know, all the spaces that you know to go look for events and resources.

[00:42:09] But we also offer an à la carte version, and so if you have chosen that those are not the communities that you are willing to commit to right now, totally understand, and we want to make sure that you have the availability to get yourself the guide and also an invite to the unboxing.

ANNE: Please visit modernmrsdarcy.com/srg, for Summer Reading Guide, to get your à la carte copy of the guide. We really would love you to join one of our communities if you are so inclined. That does financially, and really from a morale perspective, support the work we do day in and day out here for What Should I Read Next? And it's, I think, where we put our best stuff.

And you'll hear from more of our team in our communities, What Should I Read Next? Patreon for our bonus episodes and fun events, and Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club for community, classes, and conversation. This is where we host almost monthly author chats, regular classes, member meetups, and all kinds of stuff to help you get more out of your reading life by learning to read better together with your fellow book clubbers.

[00:43:11] GINGER: Can I put in a little plug? Because they are both valid ways to get the guide, à la carte or a member community. But if you are the kind of person who is excited about reading 35 potential blurbs of four books you might want to put on your TBR, and you want to talk about summer reading, and you want to nerd out about what books are going on your list, you might want some more bookish friends. So if that feels right to you, it might just be the place that you find your people, you find your book people, and you find a community. And I would just say, yeah, give it a try. Summer is a great time to find those bookish friends. And if you are the kind of person who nerds out about summer reading, you might find your people there.

ANNE: Indeed, it's a great place to be. And if you were fuzzy on what Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club was at the beginning of this episode, Ginger is our community manager for this space. And so Ginger, I feel like you're always singing the book club song.

[00:44:06] GINGER: I know. It doesn't feel like I have to sell it to anybody because I absolutely believe in this community. It has made me a better reader. I cannot even picture what my reading life would be like, what my reading list would look like without this community. I found out about so many books this way, and I have found so many true friends this way. So I just cannot even imagine my reading life without it. Can you hear me saying, "Come be my friend"?

ANNE: Well, I'm so glad to be your friend and to be a part of it. And if you don't have the time or inclination to join a community, we got you. It's at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg. Okay, I want to acknowledge the next part can be a little bit confusing, but you can also get a hard copy printed guide, Summer Reading Guide, that shows up as a magazine in your inbox via snail mail. You can get that independently, which will not include unboxing or the digital PDF, or you can buy it as an add-on. But that is an option.

[00:45:07] We did it for the first time last year, and the only thing I dislike about it is... I mean, it takes over my house for a couple days, but worth it. The only thing I dislike about it is the terminology. Like, I don't want anyone to be confused. I want you to know what you're getting and get what you expect. But if you are so inclined, or you like the sound of having a print copy, I really encourage you to go this direction.

I did a lot of printing the guide myself here locally in the years between 2012 and 2025, and it is really expensive, and the results are very hit and miss. But Will Bogel has worked just hand-in-hand with our local printers these past couple years. We printed a lot of things to ramp up to doing the guide for the first time last year to make sure we get a gorgeous edition at the lowest cost we can, and order as many as we can. So please order your guide. It makes it more affordable for everybody.

[00:46:05] But we get that nice bulk printing discount. We know we're getting top-notch quality, and we can pass that bulk printing discount along to you. So ordering from us will be cheaper, your result will be better. You'll have to wait for the USPS to bring it to your door, because we don't wrap this thing in March so that we know you'll have it ready and in your hands on May 14th, because I want to read as much as I can to get you as many books. But we do expect to have these in hand, I hope, before May 14th, so it'll be arriving then or shortly thereafter, but we'll definitely be mailing them by May 14th. And if you want one to pop up in your mailbox, we would be delighted to send one your way.

GINGER: It's worth the extra communication because they are really pretty. So it is worth a little extra moment acknowledging that you can get a hard copy because if you are so inclined. Oh, they're so pretty. I miss old school magazines coming to my mailbox, and this is one way to recapture that.

[00:46:57] ANNE: Oh, I still love a magazine. I love a magazine. I mean, the kids say print's coming back.

GINGER: Hear, hear.

ANNE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GINGER: Love it.

ANNE: My 16-year-old is buying cassette tapes, and I'm here for the hard media resurgence.

GINGER: Oh, man. All right. I'll listen to a 16-year-old, right? Surely they know what's cool.

ANNE: I am so sorry to say that right now we are only shipping to the United States. That has not always been the case, and I hope it will not always be the case. But we're a small business. We cannot keep up with what's happening in the global landscape, and that is the case right now. So if you're in the US or have a US mailing address and want a copy, we would be delighted to send that to you. And we'll have links for everything we talked about in the show notes for today's episode. Oh, too many details? I do love a detail. Look, we want you to know what you need to know.

All right, Ginger, final question, because we gotta end on a more fun note than shipping. Something you're most looking forward to in your summer reading, or something you're most excited for readers to experience with their summer reading?

[00:48:00] GINGER: Ooh, that's a great question. Okay, there could be many answers to this, but I have got to say one thing that we have not talked about is in the guide that I am so excited for people to see, and that is that somehow in the archives, the team that put this together, probably mostly you, Anne, went through and found like 15 standout moments, one from every year. And some of them...

ANNE: That was me.

GINGER: Oh my gosh, I remembered many of those, but there were some that I had completely forgotten about. Delight upon delight upon delight. And so I thought, now, if you've been around here a long time, that is going to be the most blast from the past, look down memory lane. But also, we have had this year of celebration, and I keep thinking, if you are new around here, and you've discovered this warm, bookish community, and you are wondering, "I've got 10 years to catch back up on. I've got 15 years to catch back up on," this is kind of one of those things that's like a little shortcut to "here's the best of the best". And so start here. Check this out. It's not so overwhelming. Here are 10 or 15 things that we loved and that are great memories. I just love that part. It was so fun, and I giggled multiple times. And, I mean, again- it just looks really beautiful, so shout-out to the team who put that together.

[00:49:09] ANNE: It does look really beautiful. So thank you for the compliment for my editorial eye. But also, this year our guide was designed by a What Should I Read Next? alum.

GINGER: That's right.

ANNE: In fact, we first connected when Julie Van Huizen was on the podcast back on March 12th, 2024. She's episode 421, fittingly called Go Ahead, Judge That Book by Its Cover, because she is a designer, and she has an eye for that kind of thing. And so in this year's guide, she brought her eye to our summer reading explorations, and the final result is just, like... I mean, we gushed. We gushed about it.

GINGER: Yeah. Good job, Julie. It's real pretty, as they say. And yeah, what a full-circle moment here on What Should I Read Next?

[00:49:58] ANNE: Full circle. Okay, what I'm looking forward to for our readers this summer, I wish everyone the pleasure of reading and deeply, deeply enjoying a book from a favorite author that caught their eye that they thought, "Oh, that book's for me." And I want them to read it and love it and go, "Yes, that was so worth waiting for." And also, I imagine with joy, and I do wish for them the experience of finding a book that makes them go, "I'm intrigued. I don't even know why. This isn't what I was looking for. I'm going to take a chance on this unfamiliar thing that feels a little bit outside my lane," and read it and go, "Ugh, I had no idea I wanted a book like that, but I'm so glad I read it."

GINGER: Yes. May we all have all of those experiences this summer.

ANNE: All the books, all the things, all the feelings. Oh, Ginger, thank you for joining us as collaborator and co-discoverer and creator.

[00:51:04] GINGER: Thank you for having me, and I am always here to talk about summer reading. I hope to hear from many of you, whether that's in the comments here on the post, in both of our community spaces. I just can't wait to talk more summer reading. Anne, this was a delight to talk with you, and here we go. This begins the most nerdiest time of the year.

ANNE: Ah, the pleasure is mine, and I hope all of yours, and that it's just a really wonderful reading summer.

Readers, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today. I'd love to hear your Summer Reading Guide questions or whether there are any titles you're expecting or hoping to see featured in this year's guide, although mum’s going to be the word, so that thing is out on May 14th. You will find the list of titles that Ginger and I discussed today and all the Summer Reading Guide links and details you need to know at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. If you want to go in and grab your à la carte access, that's at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg for Summer Reading Guide.

[00:52:06] Follow our show on Instagram at @WhatShouldIReadNext, where our capable, competent, delightful social media manager, Leigh Kramer, will be sharing some behind-the-scenes peeks. And if you do join us for Thursday celebrations, we'd love to ask that you wait to share your excitement about those actual selections so that we don't spoil any surprises for those getting the guide later.

The 2026 Summer Reading Guide is exclusively for our members and à la carte purchasers, so please do avoid spoilers when sharing about the Summer Reading Guide on social media. And thank you so much for supporting the work we do and looking out for your fellow readers.

Please join our email list. This is our favorite way to share all our news and events and happenings for stuff like our Summer Reading Guide, plus our weekly episodes and other bookish happenings. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

[00:52:58] Thank you to Ginger Horton for joining me today and to all the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan
• Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy
• The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders

• WSIRN Ep. 523: Some people read the Great Books, so why not me?
• MMD Book Club Class: Genius Moves for the Reading Life (2020 edition)
• Patreon Bonus Episode: April books not in the Summer Reading Guide 
• WSIRN Ep 421: Go ahead, judge that book by its cover
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Today I’m happy to get to talk books with Lee Weick, a Michigan-dwelling former teacher and grandmother who knows that variety keeps her reading life going. She loves big, long books and is most satisfied with her reading life when she’s reading those big books on a regular basis. But as you will hear, Lee has learned that the rhythms of her reading life require a nice, steady supply of books on the shorter side, or she’ll never be able to read the 800 or 900-page ones. 

Lately, though, Lee is feeling stuck when it comes to finding those shorter reads, especially those right around 200 pages. Despite the lower page count, she still wants these reads to feel substantial, thought-provoking, and interesting. 

I personally keep an eye out for audiobooks about this length, so my mind is already bursting with ideas for Lee. But I can’t wait to hear more from her about what she enjoys, especially what kinds of books she finds interesting. I hope by the end of our time together, I can put a few shorter books on Lee’s radar that sound right up her alley.

We’d love to hear your ideas for Lee: please share those titles by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Lee on Instagram.

Our Summer Reading Guide release is just around the corner, which means it’s the time of year we welcome many new members to our Patreon community. When you join us there, you get immediate access to all our past Summer Reading Guides and seasonal previews, our weekly bonus episodes, and of course, this year’s 15th Summer Reading Guide and Live Unboxing event. Choose from monthly or annual membership options that help you enjoy all that we do over in Patreon while also financially supporting our show and our team. Find out more at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[00:00:00] LEE WEICK: Also, some of the ones I'm really interested in are in that very, very long book list. And so for me to get to them, I have to have you tell me some short books I can read so I can get to those long biographies.

ANNE BOGEL: I will see what I can do.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:51] Readers, the Summer Reading Guide release is just around the corner, which means it's the time of year we welcome many new members to our Patreon community. When you join us there, you get immediate access to all our past Summer Reading Guides and seasonal previews, plus our weekly bonus episodes, and of course, this year's 15th Summer Reading Guide and Live Unboxing event. Choose from monthly or annual membership options that help you enjoy all that we do over in Patreon while also financially supporting our show and our team.

Many of our members join us for the summer reading season and then stick around for events and community all year long. They love it there, and I think you may, too. Find out more at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext. That's patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[00:01:35] Readers, today I'm happy to get to talk books with Lee Weick, a Michigan-dwelling former teacher and grandmother who knows that variety keeps her reading life going. She loves big, long books and is most satisfied with her reading life when she's reading those big books on a regular basis. And she already has half a dozen such books that she's looking forward to reading on her to-be-read list. But as you will hear, Lee has learned that the rhythms of her reading life require a nice, steady supply of books on the shorter side, or she'll never be able to read the 800 or 900-page ones.

The sticking point here is Lee is feeling stuck when it comes to finding those shorter reads, especially those right around 200 pages. Less would not be unwelcome, but she wants them to still feel substantial, thought-provoking, and interesting.

Well, I personally keep an eye out for audiobooks about this length. I love a short audiobook, so my mind is already bursting with ideas for Lee. But I can't wait to hear more from her about what she enjoys, especially what kinds of books she finds interesting, because that's a really personal question. I hope by the end of our time together, I can put a few shorter books on Lee's radar that sound right up her alley. Let's get to it.

[00:02:52] Lee, welcome to the show.

LEE: I am thrilled to be here, Anne. Thanks for having me.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure is mine. I'm excited to dig in today. Lee, we love to start by just giving our listeners a glimpse of who they are hearing from. Would you tell us a little about yourself?

LEE: I'm a former teacher, the mother of eight and grandmother of one delightful granddaughter named Daisy, which I know is a name near and dear to your heart.

ANNE: Yes, it is.

LEE: I'm coming to you from Northern Michigan, but I grew up in Georgia. One of my favorite things was when I was a teacher, I loved teaching reading. Even now, when I have an opportunity to tutor children, I love to teach reading. Initially, it was to first graders and then to my own children, who are some of the most well-read, voracious readers I've ever met. They have a sibling book club, which obviously I'm not a party to, but it's a great...

ANNE: You can still be happy to know what's happening.

[00:03:53] LEE: Yes, absolutely. Delighted. I'm on staff with a nonprofit called World Orphans. We focus on family preservation. And in my free time, I enjoy lake activities and baking, but mostly reading. And the best times are always the ones with my granddaughter, who lives down the road.

ANNE: Well, that sounds lovely. Now tell us about your reading life, whatever you think we need to know.

LEE: Well, my father taught me to read when I was about four, and I've been a voracious reader ever since. As a child, I especially loved biographies. So in second, third, fourth grade, I read every biography in the library. That came back to me during college when I had little time to choose my own reading. I had so much reading to do for school, but in order to stay on track of just being able to read what I wanted to, I would go to the library and pick a biography from each letter of the alphabet. So I read through the alphabet biographies just to stay on track with some other reading.

[00:05:01] I've also thought as an adult that I didn't like magical realism but then I realized that one of my favorite books as a child was a book called Fog Magic. And that is exactly what it is. It's very historical kind of fiction, but with a significant magical element. And I found that delightful.

As a busy mother, I always read at bedtime. I fell asleep with my nose in a book frequently and had to reread pages, but I made it a habit because that was the only time of day I could just sit and read what I wanted to read. My children love that I read one James Michener novel during each pregnancy. So eight James Micheners.

ANNE: Those are big ones, too.

LEE: They always want to know, well, which one did you read when you were pregnant with me? While I was teaching literature and writing in our homeschool co-op, that kept me engaged with classic rereads and a few new titles. But when my friend Pam learned that I hadn't read a book published after about 1970 in decades, she urged me to join her book club. And it was life-changing.

[00:06:10] I really had a bias against contemporary literature and frequently would go through periods where I only read classics. But she and that book club introduced me to so many wonderful new titles. And they relied on me for the classics. So these days I read a wide variety. I really do like variety. That's what keeps me going. I love historical fiction. I love family drama, mysteries, magical realism a bit.

And I enjoy trying the unusual. For example, The English Understand Wool and The History of Sound are two that I read in the last year that were unlike... each of those was unlike anything I'd ever read before. And I enjoyed them. But I also like my old reliable favorites like Jane Austen and a new favorite, thanks to you, Maggie O'Farrell. My favorite three living authors are Maggie O'Farrell, Erik Larson, and Amor Towles. Although none of them show up in my books that I'm going to bring.

[00:07:17] ANNE: Well, look how you just snuck them right in.

LEE: Yeah, they deserve a shout-out. They're so great.

ANNE: All right. Thank you for the backdrop. Now, you've been listening for a couple of years. What brings you to What Should I Read Next? now? Where are you in your reading life and what are you looking for?

LEE: I noticed that I was reading a certain type of book over the last few years. It was great because I'd been introduced to these new contemporary fiction. But I was reading books that all fell in the 350-to-450-page count and were primarily, not exclusively, but primarily contemporary fiction. I had a number of lengthy books on my TBR and really wanted to get to them.

Team of Rivals has been sitting on my nightstand for two or three years. And it's a long book, more than 700 pages. But I really wanted to read it. And so I was asking myself, "Why don't I pick it up and read it?" And I discovered that it was because I like having several different books going at the same time. I don't just read one book straight through. I want some variety. I'm a little bit of a mood reader.

[00:08:38] So I want to be able to dip in and out of some different topics or some things that feel different in their style. And if I start into a long book, I was concerned that it would just get tedious for me, that I needed something to dip in and out of. But when I would do that and then dip in a 400-page book, I would never get back to the long book. So I decided that if I had shorter books to go with the long one, I need something under 200 pages, maybe under 250 pages in that range, then I would be able to have the variety I want without pulling me away from the longer books. So that's why I'm coming to you is to help me find some high-quality shorter books. The long ones, I have no trouble. I'm hoping to read six or seven of them this year.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. Are they all stacked up with Team of Rivals? I mean, maybe not literally on your nightstand.

[00:09:35] LEE: In my mind. I mostly have the longer ones selected, but I'm having a hard time finding shorter ones that are of a good quality. I can find short books, but not things that have some depth or hold my interest.

ANNE: Ooh, okay. This may be a hard question, but, Lee?

LEE: Yes?

ANNE: Tell me more about depth. Like, what makes a novel feel substantial to you, even though it may be slim? And when you say you want it to hold your interest, I mean, what do you find interesting? The English Understand Wool tells me a lot. But that's just one example. I'd love to hear you reflect on this.

LEE: That is a very good question. I read such a wide variety of books that it's not a simple, straight-line answer.

[00:10:29] ANNE: I imagine you have a good idea about some reading experiences that are emblematic of what you're pointing toward. But also I wonder if we might be talking our way towards an answer a little bit.

LEE: Yes. I do think that we may find that it has to do with the interaction between people and seeing some of the inner life of a person and how they learn and grow and discover more about themselves. But it's also key to have that interaction between other people. So I think the relationships have a lot to do with it. I also think that some seriousness, some principles, some philosophy, even if it's light, doesn't have to be deep and heavy all the time. But something of substance.

ANNE: Again, substance. Say more about substance, please.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: That sounded so bossy.

LEE: That's okay.

ANNE: Tell me, Lee, tell me.

[00:11:36] LEE: Yes. Layers, I think. Again, it doesn't have to be heavy or serious or hard, although that's okay, too. But to have some layers that are unfolding. Maybe a quest or a mystery.

ANNE: Okay. I'm intrigued by that idea of layers. I'm thinking about a book that doesn't give the reader everything there is in the story on the first reading. Like one that could stand up to poking and prodding and questioning.

LEE: Yes. I think you're headed in the right direction. If you even think about The English Understand Wool, that's-

ANNE: Okay, tell us about that book since we're referencing it as a type for you several times.

LEE: It's very short. It's very pithy. The main character is a young girl, a young woman who most people would say has been badly treated. I don't want to give away too much. But I think people would look at her situation and assess it that she's been ill-treated in her life, but she does not perceive it that way at all.

[00:12:51] And so it's a little bit challenging to figure out what has actually gone on in her life. Who are these people in her life and what has happened to her unfolds mysteriously. And even by the end, it's not crystal clear, but seeing her inner life and how she perceives herself, I think that is something to do with showing different perspectives that people have on a situation. But it's exactly what you said, that everything about the book and what the author is trying to say, the meaning of it is not very clear immediately, and really needs to be re-read, talked about with someone else to get beneath the layers.

ANNE: And there's a lot going on in that book. It's tricksy and also it's like a send-up of the publishing industry and the psychological thriller. And the tone is really something else. This isn't even one of your favorites and yet we feel compelled to talk about it.

[00:14:09] You know, what else is interesting is The English Understand Wool is a novella as part of the New Directions series of interestingly, eye-catchingly packaged novellas. And I was noticing, just thinking about the kind of books that might be right for you, that some authors tend to write books that are short, but Helen DeWitt is not one of those authors. And I'm just now noticing that.

Like her most recent book that was published, Your Name Here, is extremely large. That would belong on the flip side of the books that belong in your reading life. But okay, I'm digressing. We're going to pull this back in. So when we're talking about books of substance that hold your interest, you've talked a little bit about the kinds of genres you enjoy, so we're really looking to give you the variety that's going to keep you going in your reading life, and especially with those longer books that you know you want to be able to prioritize reading.

LEE: Exactly.

[00:15:06] ANNE: Lee, you know how this works. You brought me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll explore books on the shorter side that you may enjoy reading next. How did you decide what books to bring to the show today?

LEE: That is so interesting how that process went, because if you had asked me a year ago, I think I would have had a completely different list of books. But I just sat down and quickly popped out three titles. And when I went back and looked at what I wrote down, they were not at all what I would have thought.

ANNE: Okay, I can actually tell you what titles you sent in when you submitted on Tuesday, December 3, 2024.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: Summer at Buckhorn.

LEE: It's a great one.

ANNE: Which I'm not familiar with.

LEE: It's out of print.

ANNE: I love an out-of-print title in the books you love. Anna Karenina, and a book by Erik Larson — you said he's one of your three living favorites — Dead Wake.

[00:16:05] LEE: Yes, and I still love all those books. You know, and many of your guests say it is extremely difficult to pick three books. And I do love these three books I picked, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're my top three all-time favorites.

ANNE: Although in February 2025, you did choose one of the books I believe you're going to be sharing with us today.

LEE: I know.

ANNE: And What Alice Forgot and Dead Wake.

LEE: Also great.

ANNE: That's it for the glimpses into Lee's past that I have.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: We have extinguished.

LEE: That is very interesting.

ANNE: So I like this going from the gut approach. Where did it lead you? What's the first book you love?

[00:16:53] LEE: The first book is called Vera, or Faith. It's by Gary Shteyngart. I've never heard of him before. I've never read anything else by him. My daughter recommended this book to me, and I was pretty skeptical. It's relatively new. I think it's been out only about a year, maybe a year and a half.

But it's a story of a family. The setting is dystopian America. This family is going under a lot of stress, just a tremendous amount of variety of stresses. And you see the family life through the eyes of a 10-year-old girl. She's the only child. And initially, she's introduced through her school experience where she's very different. She's very bright, very creative, ethnically unlike her classmates. And so you get some insight into her inner world that way, but also how she's relating to the adults in her life and the problems that they are going through.

[00:17:55] This is a hard, in some ways, painful book. It's very realistic, but also quirky and smart and funny and sweet and tender. Shteyngart really doesn't waste any words. It's a short book, but it's rich. I think what I love about it is the family relationships. The child's inner life is so fascinating and relatable. I think it's difficult to write a child well. She's on a quest. So that unfolding mystery of her quest is captivating. And it has a very hopeful tone.

ANNE: I've only read Our Country Friends by him, but I've heard good things about this one. I was so curious to hear what you would say.

LEE: It's a really wonderful, delightful book.

ANNE: Okay. Quirky, smart, sweet, tender. I'm making notes. Lee, what's the second book you love?

[00:18:58] LEE: Patriot by Alexei Navalny. He is a Russian... well, he's deceased now, but he was the counterpart, antagonist, if you will, to the current administration in Russia. And he was viewed as a troublemaker. He was a patriot. He wanted so much for his country, for people to be free, to be able to determine their own government, their own way of life. He really was enemy number one for Putin for a long time.

This book is his memoir, he talks about his childhood, his growing up, but it's written from a Russian prison. And much of the time he is going through isolation, torture, ill health. It talks about his philosophy, his politics, a lot of humor, has some letters to his family. It is one of the most compelling books I've ever read.

[00:20:12] I have so much admiration for him. He's passionate. He's funny. He's hopeful. His aspirations for his country were frustrated and his liberty assaulted in the worst possible ways from the very darkest Russian prisons. He writes matter-of-factly and humbly with humor and hope. And it kind of reminded me of Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, just some of those tones of "I'm experiencing the worst that human beings can do to other human beings, but I press on and I am hopeful".

ANNE: Now, you mentioned you love to read biographies.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Is this the kind of book we'd see in your mix very often?

[00:21:03] LEE: From time to time. I read a great many biographies when I was younger. I don't find as many biographies now that I'm interested in. Also, some of the ones I'm really interested in are in that very, very long book list. So for me to get to them, I have to have you tell me some short books I can read so I can get to those long biographies.

ANNE: I will see what I can do. But yes, as I picture the biographies that I anticipate reading on my bookshelf, 800, 900 pages or more, not uncommon.

LEE: Yes, that's right.

ANNE: But I'm typically glad I made time for them when I do. Lee, what's the third book you love?

LEE: The third book is The Count of Monte Cristo. And I would say this one is amongst my top all-time favorites and often, I would say, is my number one favorite book of all time. And it's a long one. It's an epic adventure story. It's inspired by a real-life case, actually.

[00:22:16] It has full of twists and turns. The main character, Edmond Dantès, is accused of a crime he did not commit. And the agonies and frustrations and resentments that build in Him lead to much of the plot of the rest of the story. His frustrations and his suffering are painful, but I find that I appreciate and value reading about the pains and the frustrations of a person's life as long as there's hope and they keep moving forward. I think that's what I loved about Edmond Dantès.

He's very real and relatable. Even though his character has some flaws, he's an imperfect human being, as we all are, and makes some questionable choices, he's still quite lovable. I was rooting for him, even though there were times when I thought, oh, he's taking some bad turns. He's not the type of person maybe I would want to be in all instances. But he's the type of person many or most of us are in certain situations. So he's very relatable and very lovable.

[00:23:41] I did have an opportunity to actually visit a castle in Switzerland on Lake Geneva that was a castle that inspired Alexandre Dumas when he was writing this story.

ANNE: What?

LEE: Yes. I walked around that castle. I didn't take the tour that they wanted to give me. I just spent hours wandering around the castle and sitting and reflecting on what Alexandre Dumas must have been thinking when he was there. And then as he was writing The Count of Monte Cristo, he used that as a type for the Château d'If that is featured heavily in the book.

ANNE: Well, that's incredible. Was that after you'd read the book?

LEE: Yes. I've read the book three times, I think.

ANNE: I was going to say, I would have wanted to read it again after that.

LEE: Exactly. I read it once when I was relatively young, and then I brought it to our book club who almost didn't agree to read it because it's so long.

[00:24:43] ANNE: How many pages is it? I listened to the audio, which I remember being 45 hours.

LEE: I'm really not sure, but I want to say it's around 800, maybe. It's one of the longest books I've ever read. It could be longer than that.

ANNE: Maybe it's better to listeners considering it if they don't know.

LEE: Yes. It's long, but it's very engaging. Very, very engaging.

ANNE: It's telling that you've loved it enough that it's been consistent in your favorites over time, and you've read it multiple times. And thank you for what you said about pain and frustrations and how you're looking for that to relate to hope in your stories. That's helpful.

LEE: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. Lee, tell me about a book that wasn't right for you.

LEE: I sometimes hear people say that this was difficult. I didn't find this difficult at all. In fact, I thought of a number of books that weren't right for me. But I chose one particularly because it's a good book. I believe it's well-written. So it's not that the book didn't have quality. It's that it wasn't right for me.

[00:25:50] It's The Vaster Wilds by Lauren Groff. And it has lovely writing. She's a brilliant writer. It's very atmospheric, and I did like that part. But even though it's quite short, I found myself sloshing through it. I had to force myself to finish it. And I think the reason is because there was no dialogue. I started to say not enough dialogue. But if I'm remembering correctly, there was almost no dialogue. There are no other people. It's mostly this one girl who has escaped servitude, wandering through and trying to survive the wilderness. And it just became very same, same to me.

[00:26:41] So I enjoyed the first few pages, and I thought, "Oh, this is intriguing. It's very atmospheric." So I kept waiting for where it was going to go next, and it seemed like it kept going to the same places, or they were very similar places. It just became very repetitive to me, or had the same feeling.

And I didn't enjoy some of the gross descriptions that some people get a big kick out of. I think I might have appreciated this character, the young girl, as a person. But I had no opportunities to observe her interacting with others. And I didn't know this before, but on reflecting about this book and why I didn't like it, it has come to my attention that that matters to me.

[00:27:32] So, for example, even in a Michener book, you have a similar thing to this description of a wilderness. At the very beginning of those books, he lays the groundwork for the rest of the novel by talking about the prehistoric place. All his books are focused around a place. So he describes the prehistoric setting in pretty great detail. And there's no people and no interaction between people. And just when I would think I can't bear this another minute, he stopped and went on with the story. And the people came, and they began to interact and talk. And Lauren Groff's book never did that.

ANNE: Okay. Yeah, well, her interactions happen at a distance. I can remember one man she sees after she flees, and then in her memory. And you were hoping for more like immediate, vivid descriptions of people relating to each other in your fiction in general.

LEE: Apparently.

ANNE: Apparently. Okay, we're going to go with it for our purposes today. Until we decide to do otherwise, we're going to go with it. Lee, what have you been reading lately?

[00:28:44] LEE: Recently, I listened to audio. And I'm not a huge audiobook person, but if I'm driving more than a couple of hours, I will listen to an audiobook. And this one was perfect audiobook. It's called Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent by Judi Dench.

ANNE: I listened to that on audio on a road trip.

LEE: Oh, it's the only way. I've never seen the book in print, but I cannot imagine reading that book any other way than audio. Judi Dench is delightful. She's brilliant and funny. And the book is an interview with her, as you know.

I felt like I got a mini course in Shakespearean literature via Judi Dench and a little bit of the theater, like behind the scenes of theater. And it's about her life, but a lot of it is about Shakespearean plays and how they were presented and the British theater. And I just found that delightful.

[00:29:48] I've also been reading The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon by Beth Brower.

ANNE: You and everybody else [inaudible 00:29:55].

LEE: Yes. Yes. It's very, very popular. Wildly popular. I am really enjoying them, especially in contrast to some heavier things. So that's where I enjoy kind of that mood reading or that bouncing off of if I'm reading something very serious or a little more dry than to have something like Emma M. Lyon to dip into as fun. I appreciate The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon because they are delightful, have some humor, they're lighter, but they're not fluff. I think there's some good character development, there's some topics that we all deal with that Emma walks through, but the best part about it is it puts me in a place I want to be. And that is Victorian England, or any England.

ANNE: Well, then I'm glad you found them. And there's plenty of them, so that can be your Victorian escapism for quite a while.

LEE: Yes.

[00:30:56] ANNE: How are those working as perhaps counterbalances to these long books?

LEE: Initially, okay, because the first couple are fairly short, but they get longer as you go along, so the tone of them work well for that purpose, but the length of the later ones, again, has me swept into Emma M. Lyon for too long and neglect my Lonesome Dove that I want to read.

ANNE: Okay. So you'd like something that's more a distinct standalone reading experience?

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. That is helpful. Now, Lee, you've told us what you're looking for in your reading life. You're looking for books that are... how many pages or hours? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[00:31:53] LEE: Well, absolutely under 300 pages, but it would be okay if they were 250-ish, just something that I can read in a day or two in order to have the variety and little palate cleansers in between, that sort of thing. I don't want them to be much longer than that.

ANNE: Okay, so if what we're looking for is the pendulum to swing back the other direction from something like Team of Rivals or The Count of Monte Cristo, we do actually want to make it swing?

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: All right. Well, what else do you want me to know? Because there's so many different directions we can go in, and I'm happy to choose. I don't know if you've heard me jotting things down, crossing them out again.

LEE: Sure.

ANNE: I mean, I got ideas for you, but if there's anything else you want me to know for your wishlist?

[00:32:43] LEE: There is one thing that I would like you to know, because I've said that I can handle the pain, the frustration, the hard things of life, as long as there's progress and hope. But I have stumbled on a couple of kinds of things that I don't want and I can't. I apparently can't handle or don't want to handle. The best example, it's abuse. And it isn't even... it's not someone remembering or having the emotions or the trauma from having been abused. It's the descriptions of abuse. So I could not read The Names. I started it and after the first instance of humiliating, awful abuse, I couldn't go on.

ANNE: And The Names is intense, the Florence Knapp book.

[00:33:34] LEE: It's very intense. That is not for me. I couldn't even go very far in Demon Copperhead because it talked a lot about... I want to read that book. I think maybe at some point in some time in my life, I can go back to it because I know it's a good book. But abuse, that humiliating, it isn't... you know, murder I'm okay with, but abuse, not so much. If The Names, I mean, maybe somebody would tell me, "It's going to be helpful. It is. Just stick with it," well, maybe I could.

ANNE: It's not.

LEE: Well, that's what I thought.

ANNE: I do think it can be helpful tonally to know what world you're in. And when you begin The Names, you are in that world. And that world stays pretty steady.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Interactions between people, the inner life, how a person learns and grows. That's what we're looking for. Let's recap. You love Vera, or Faith by Gary Shteyngart, Patriot by Alexei Navalny, and The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas. Not for You was The Vaster Wild by Lauren Groff. You are looking for interactions between people. And you did not enjoy the descriptions of like the dead dogs lying in the road. Not for you.

[00:34:48] Lately, you've been enjoying Shakespeare: The Man who Pays the Rent by Judi Dench. And we both listened to the audio where Brendan O'Hea interviews her and also Beth Brower's The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon. And we are looking for books that really deliver on that short, substantial... you enjoy books that have a kind of philosophy or principles about them, even if it's not stated. Let me think. I feel like we could start with what will be an exceptional pick for you or really, really terrible. And we are going to find out.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: I'm thinking of the nonfiction book that is not a biography, Wedding Toast I'll Never Give by Ada Calhoun. Do you know her? Do you know this?

LEE: I think I've heard of that book, but I'm not familiar with it. No.

[00:35:46] ANNE: I think I might've read this at the recommendation, or at least I definitely talked about it with our team member, Ginger Horton. I know we both read this and enjoyed it. This is Ada Calhoun's nonfiction personal essay collection about... I mean, it's Wedding Toast I'll Never Give. What she means by that is, hey, I've got some real frank thoughts about relationships that I would never stand up and say at the beginning of someone's marriage, but like, do I think them and believe them with my whole heart? Yes. So not appropriate to say there. I'm going to put them in this book instead.

And this book actually came into being because of a Modern Love column she wrote for the New York Times that went viral. I do not know which essay in this collection that was. I'm sure I looked it up after reading, but I have no idea now. But Lee, I know that you have been married a long time, I believe.

LEE: Yes.

[00:36:38] ANNE: Okay. If somebody had handed me this book after I'd been married for one year, I would have been horrified. But that's not me. And I thought this was so funny and frank, like to give you a taste of how it hits differently when we... we'll have our 26th anniversary this year. So Ada Calhoun said that somebody told her once, "Oh, the first 20 years of marriage are the hardest." And she talks about how at the time she thought that was a joke, but it wasn't at all. Or I think she quotes... she might be quoting her mom once when she says, even good marriages sometimes involve flinging a remote control at the wall.

But this is about marriage, relationships, infidelity, divorce, and lots of personal growth. Ada Calhoun is not afraid to have a take here and argue her point. But also, she talks about ways she's revised her beliefs along the way.

[00:37:35] It might be worth mentioning, and you can read about this because she wrote an auto-fictional novel called Crush about this. But she did get divorced after writing this. But it's called Wedding Toast I'll Never Give. It's short. The audio itself is something like three and a half hours. So the page count of this smaller format work is going to put you in that 200 pages or less sweet spot. How is this sounding?

LEE: It sounds delightful. It's hard to know, you know, until you experience it. I agree with your initial assessment that it's probably something that would be you love it, or you really don't. But it sounds like fun.

ANNE: I think this would be a book that if you like to talk about your reading with others, there's a lot of good conversational fodder here. Whether you think, oh my gosh, she articulated that thing that I've always kind of believed, but haven't been able to put into words so well, or whether you think, that is wrong, and let me tell you why I think so. I think it could lead to really good conversations if you enjoy that.

LEE: Yes, very much.

[00:38:35] ANNE: Okay, that is Wedding Toast I'll Never Give by Ada Calhoun. Now, I want to say that... well, here, let's find out if you’ve read it yet. Have you had any Miriam Toews? I'm thinking of Fight Night specifically.

LEE: Nope.

ANNE: Not sad to hear it. She's a Canadian writer. And she's written fiction and nonfiction. This is a short novel about three generations of women in one family. This just came out a few years ago. The narrator is mostly a nine-year-old girl. Her name is Swiv. And when she is expelled from school for fighting, her family is upset. She starts spending her days with her frail, but spunky grandmother, who has an unconventional approach to homeschooling her nine-year-old granddaughter.

[00:39:30] So her grandmother says, "Okay, Swiv, you are to write letters about what's happening in your life and in our family to your father, who has been away since their mother got pregnant." And she's supposed to update him on her mother's third-trimester pregnancy. Swiv is like, "Well, okay, if I have to write these letters, then I want you to write some of her own." So her grandmother is also assigned writing about the family.

But the women in this family, I mean, the grandmother especially, feel larger than life. You mentioned in talking about the Shteyngart that kids are hard to write well. Swiv has such sass and character without feeling obnoxious, like sometimes adults write kids, which makes it, at least for this reader, easy to trust Toews as a writer.

[00:40:26] Swiv's mother is a pregnant actress. She is not as much in the picture as the other women in the family. She's mostly described coming and going, but she is a big personality, like all the women in this family have big personalities. There is a background of mental illness that the family is talking around that feels really scary to some people in the family. So there is definitely pain and sadness here and frustration. The father's gone. That's discussed as a big gap. And there's a bit of a question as to why for much of the story.

But there is definitely hope. The grandma makes at least one speech about joy and how important it is when times are hard. And this has a really lovely wrap-up at the end. Not all like pat tied in a bow, but it feels really fitting. It's darkly funny. I mean, there aren't a lot of books around like this one. How's this sounding?

[00:41:27] LEE: That sounds amazing. It strikes me as unique and perfect. So many topics it touches on that are near and dear to my heart. So it really sounds like it'll be perfect.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. And then finally, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd pick this up, but have you read Charlotte Wood's Stone Yard Devotional?

LEE: I'm aware of it. I've not read it.

ANNE: This one has a broodier tone where we talked about the Ada Calhoun nonfiction and Miriam Toews' Fight Night. Both of those feel like brighter and brasher. This one is definitely moodier. It's slim. It was shortlisted for the Booker. It's Australian. And it was described to me before I picked it up as a book that sounds quiet but reads as anything but.

[00:42:22] And you do get a lot of inner life musings in this story. But you also see this Sydney woman who has retreated to take up residence, not as an initiate, but she's living at a convent and lodging there far from home on the plains of New South Wales. She has taken a leave of absence from her life, from her work, from her family, from her marriage. And when she first comes to the convent, she's just literally lying on the floor for many hours a day thinking, like, how did I get here? So lots of inner life. But we do see her interact with people as well.

There's a series of three arrivals that happens in this story. When we were talking about books that have substance and layers and a structure that will hold when you push on it, that doesn't give everything up on the first reading, that you really could dig under and around and see what the author is up to, this structure of the visitations, I think, could be interesting to explore.

[00:43:30] But there are these visitations, and they really disrupt our narrator's peace and call her for different reasons to contemplate her past and future life. Now, one of these visitations is an overwhelming invasion of mice. And the descriptions of these were like... they're kind of icky. I'm thinking now of how you said you didn't like the descriptions of some of the things in nature found in The Vaster Wild. They're brief, but she wants you to know that overwhelming invasion of mice, she's being serious about that overwhelming part. And there's a couple of brief descriptions that give you a sense of the scope here. But also the mortal remains of one of the convent sisters who died far away for reasons that are gone into arrive back to rest at the convent. And that kicks up a lot of excitement and gossip among the nuns.

[00:44:24] And then there's a climate activist who comes to visit and our narrator knew her in a past life. And that relationship brings up all kinds of emotions for the Sydney woman who's taking refuge at the convent. There's not a clear plot, exactly. You don't get to the end and be like, "Oh, I see how that resolved." But if you like the sound of a book that's contemplative, about kind of blowing up your whole life, I think this is that book. How does that sound?

LEE: That sounds intriguing. It sounds fascinating. And I believe I will like it if I can get past the mice. My kids will tell you that I loathe mice. I would rather meet a snake than a mouse. However, since you've warned me about it, and you said they're brief, and they don't have to be in the room with me, I think I can handle. I'm willing to give it a go, because the rest of it sounds so brilliant. And that I would very much enjoy that I think I can face the mice.

[00:45:38] ANNE: I am glad to hear it. I don't believe it's necessary to linger on those descriptions. I think you'll be just fine without them.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: You're not going to miss anything crucial.

LEE: When you said taking a leave of absence from her life, that was a really appealing thought. Because from time to time, I have that thought. It would be nice to just go take a leave of absence from life and contemplate who you want to be. But I don't really want to do it. So I'd love to read about it.

ANNE: Well, maybe this could be your vicarious one.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. But let's give you a backup in case.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: Have you read The Summer Book by Tove Jansson?

LEE: No.

ANNE: Do you know it at all?

LEE: No, not at all.

ANNE: 160 pages, 1972. Are we going to call that a modern classic?

LEE: Sure.

[00:46:36] ANNE: So Jansson is Finnish, I believe. This was originally written in Swedish. This is a book in translation. It reads almost as a series of just like really gentle short stories about a grandmother and her six-year-old granddaughter spending the summer together on a tiny island in the Gulf of Finland.

So this is also gently paced with just these beautiful, lush descriptions of the natural world. And there's heavy and light here, but both are handed with gentleness and just like this undercurrent of deep goodness and the relationship between the grandmother and granddaughter. And you said a couple of things, both about your reading and about your life, that made me think, maybe. How does that sound?

LEE: That sounds beautiful. I find that very appealing, not the least of which because I am spending a lot of time with my seven-year-old granddaughter.

[00:47:30] ANNE: I am glad to hear it. And then can I just share a few authors that tend to write short books?

LEE: I would love that.

ANNE: There's all kinds of healing fiction that's so popular in Japanese fiction and Korean fiction right now, like We'll Prescribe You a Cat. You know, I just said that I was going to share authors with you, but okay, there's a specific book. But also that whole genre, it often comes in right about the length you're looking for. But also Katie Kitamura, Kevin Wilson, Julie Otsuka, Graham Greene, Susie Boyt, Paulette Jiles, Joan Silber. You have a lot of authors who often write books that are like 220 to 240 pages.

And we didn't really talk directly, we talked a little bit before recording about how some of what goes into page count is like trickery and packaging and it's not as helpful as it might be. There's no objective, like, this is what a 200-page book feels like. It's not the word count. But they do tend to write books that I think are about the length you're looking for to counterbalance, say, Team of Rivals.

[00:48:42] Okay, Lee, of the books we talked about today, they were Wedding Toast I'll Never Give, the nonfiction by Ada Calhoun, Fight Night by Miriam Toews, Stone Yard Devotional by Charlotte Wood, and The Summer Book by Tove Jansson, of those books, what sounds good? What do you think you might read next?

LEE: They all sound like must-reads. And I'm delighted and amazed that you were able to mention so many books and authors that I'm really not very familiar with. But the one that rose to the top and just shone for me is Fight Night. So I'm going to read that one first, but I suspect I'll read them all.

ANNE: Well, I hope you really enjoy it. And I hope it is able to power you through the long books that you know you want to read this year. Lee, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking books with me today.

LEE: It's been delightful for me, and I really appreciate you having me. Looking forward to reading these.

ANNE: I can't wait to hear how it works out.

[00:49:46] Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lee, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Lee on Instagram. We have that link plus the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Join us over on Instagram at @WhatShouldIReadNext, where we post updates from each week's episode, plus peeks at our Patreon bonus episodes and more.

Make sure you're on our email list to keep up with upcoming events, and we have some big ones on the horizon, and more news from What Should I Read Next? HQ. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

And make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, wherever you get your podcasts. When you subscribe to our show or follow us on your favorite podcast platform, that helps new listeners find us and tells the platform and networks that you want to keep hearing from us each week. It's simple. It's free. It really does make a difference for us. So thank you in advance.

[00:50:44] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• Fog Magic by Julia L. Sauer 
• The English Understand Wool by Helen DeWitt 
• The History of Sound by Ben Shattuck
• Maggie O’Farrell (try This Must Be the Place)
• Amor Towles (try A Gentleman in Moscow)
• Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin
• Summer at Buckhorn by Anna Maria Rose Wright 
• Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
• Dead Wake by Erik Larson
• What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty
Vera, or Faith by Gary Shteyngart
• Our Country Friends by Gary Shteyngart
Patriot by Alexei Navalny
• Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas
▵ The Vaster Wilds by Lauren Groff
• Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent by Judi Dench and Brendan O’Hea (Audio edition)
• The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lion by Beth Brower 
• The Names by Florence Knapp
• Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver
• Wedding Toasts I’ll Never Give by Ada Calhoun
• Crush by Ada Calhoun
• Fight Night by Miriam Toews
• Stone Yard Devotional by Charlotte Wood
• The Summer Book by Tove Jansson
• We’ll Prescribe You a Cat by Syou Ishida
• Katie Kitamura (try Intimacies)
• Kevin Wilson (try Now Is Not the Time to Panic)
• Julie Otsuka (try The Swimmers)
• Graham Greene (try The Quiet American)
• Susie Boyt (try Loved and Missed)
• Paulette Giles (try News of the World)
• Joan Silber (try Mercy)

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• Please support our sponsors.

The post Short books that still feel substantial appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today’s guest recently completed a classics reading project, and now she really wants to keep up that momentum while also bringing more non-classics back into her reading life.

Sometimes I see a guest submission come across my screen and I think, “Oh, I know just the team member to have that conversation with”, and today we’re trying something new and inviting a team member alongside me to help tackle one reader-specific reading dilemma. As you’ll hear today, I couldn’t help but notice that guest Cheryl Drury’s tastes and her recent focus on the classics make me think of my friend and teammate, Ginger Horton.

Ginger is our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club community manager, and she has recently been immersed in the classics due to her current enrollment in a Great Books graduate study program. That’s why Ginger seems like exactly the right reader to bring along for this conversation with Cheryl.

Cheryl hails from Charleston, South Carolina. While she’s always been a reader, she’d never really dabbled much in classics or Great Books until 18 months ago, when she embarked on a challenge to read through a year-long list of more than 100 influential books. The project energized Cheryl’s reading life, but now she’s not quite sure where to go next in her approach to reading.

Cheryl shares many reading similarities with Ginger, and I cannot wait to hear Ginger’s ideas and offer my own for Cheryl’s reading quest today. We will talk about how Cheryl may retain some of the structure from her classics project because that served her well, but also where she can have more flexibility to follow where her reading whimsy takes her. Plus, we’ll offer some title ideas that hopefully will feel like just the right bridge between what Cheryl’s been reading lately and what she’d love more of in the months ahead.

We’d love to hear your ideas, too: please share your suggestions for Cheryl by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Cheryl on Substack and Instagram.

This year marks our 10th anniversary of Book Club. It has been so much fun along the way, and we’ve got great events queued up to celebrate this year. Plus, this is a wonderful time to join because it’s Summer Reading Guide season. For more from Ginger and more Book Club fun, join us at modernmrsdarcy.com/club.

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: I don't know. I kind of feel like Ginger. You don't need me to butt in with any recommendations, but if I can't help myself, then maybe we'll tag-team you, Cheryl.

GINGER HORTON: We could probably give her another 52, like the Anne and Ginger list. Danger, danger.

CHERYL DRURY: I mean, honestly, I do feel like I could read another 52 equally valid books, and it would be awesome. Don't do that yet.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:53] While I love talking about books with readers of all sorts of tastes, sometimes I see a guest submission come across my screen and I think, "Oh, I know just the team member to have that conversation with." If you've been listening along for a while, you may remember when a guest needed book picks for a bucket list trip to Australia and Southeast Asia, and I pulled in my teammate, digital nomad Holly Wielkoszewski, to share her recommendations because she had just spent many months in those parts of the world.

Well, today we are back again with a hopefully dynamic team duo. I hope I'm allowed to say that, Ginger Horton, as she is coming on to help tackle one reader-specific reading dilemma. We're trying something new today, and we hope you enjoy it.

But first, I want to tell you readers, we've been having so much fun over in the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club lately. And it's funny that Ginger's on today because she is our community manager in that space. Last week, we hosted Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney for a live author talk, and it was so fun to bring her back in a sense, though it was our first conversation with her. But she was a summer reading author in the very first year, back before even Ginger officially joined our team. And now here she is, official in 10 years and counting.

[00:02:10] Ginger has been instrumental in shaping how our community has grown. And you may not know, but she is also the mastermind behind adding a live unboxing event to our Summer Reading Guide. So that was Ginger's idea then.

And at first I said, "I'm sorry, you want to do what? Why? Who's going to come? Who wants to see that?" And now, she was right, and it is, I'm going to say, the most fun thing we do all year. If I'm allowed to have many favorites, like we allow our guests in What Should I Read Next?.

So it's hard to believe that this year marks our 10th anniversary of book club. But it has been so much fun along the way, and we've got great events queued up to celebrate this year. Plus, this is a wonderful time to join because it's summer reading season.

Ginger, do you want to share one thing we do in book club that you really enjoy?

GINGER: Oh, yeah. I have got to...

ANNE: Totally, I did not prepare her in advance for this.

GINGER: Always glad. I mean, it's probably like you, favorite is a category. So this is my favorite at the moment because we're going to talk about some nerdy fun today. I love the nerdy classes that we've had. Things like how to set your reading intentions, things like a great conversation about great books. I might mention a couple of others throughout this conversation that have impacted my own reading life. But I love to get nerdy with classes.

[00:03:22] ANNE: Ooh, I'm glad to hear it. Okay, I'm going to go for a tried-and-true favorite: the Reading This Week Forum. Every Sunday, we kick it off. And by we, I mean one of our members had the idea, and now it's a tradition. But every week whoever wants to, shares what they've been reading that week. And y'all, our members are smart and fun and funny and well-read. And their little one sentence to a paragraph or two commentary about what they're reading could keep me in books until the end of time. But they also give me the information I need to decide what I'm going to choose to read next. For more from Ginger and more book club fun, join us at modernmrsdarcy.com/club.

Readers, today's guest recently completed a classics reading project, and now she really wants to keep up that momentum while also bringing more non-classics back into her reading life. This sounded so fun, so intriguing. And I couldn't help but notice that both Cheryl Drury's tastes and her recent focus on the classics make me think of my friend and teammate, Ginger Horton.

[00:04:36] As we mentioned above, Ginger is our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager. And while she and I do have a nice wide space in our overlapping Venn diagram, Ginger has recently been immersed in the classics due to her current enrollment in a Great Books graduate study program. So for Ginger, it's not all classics all the time, just mostly classics most of the time these days. That's why Ginger seems like exactly the right reader to bring along for this conversation with Cheryl.

Cheryl hails from Charleston, South Carolina. And while she's always been a reader, she told us that she'd never really dabbled much in classics or great books until 18 months ago, when she embarked on a challenge to read through a year-long list of more than 100 influential books, starting with Plato and finishing with David Foster Wallace. The project energized Cheryl's reading life, but now she's not quite sure where to go in her approach to reading.

[00:05:31] Cheryl shares many reading similarities with Ginger, and I cannot wait to hear Ginger's ideas and offer my own for Cheryl's reading quest today. We will talk about how Cheryl may retain some of the structure from her classics project because that served her well, but also where she can have more flexibility to follow where her reading whimsy takes her. Plus, we'll offer some title ideas that hopefully will feel like just the right bridge between what Cheryl's been reading lately and what she'd love more of in the months ahead. Let's get to it.

Ginger and Cheryl, welcome to the show.

GINGER: Well, I am so excited to be here in this capacity. I am excited and nervous, and Anne, I am impressed that you do this week after week because while I am thrilled to talk books at any time, it's daunting, I think, not to recommend three books, but to limit yourself to recommending three books.

ANNE: Well, you may notice our super secret spreadsheet available to our patrons. It has a lot of slashes in it where there's three books in the spot on the spreadsheet where one book was designed to go, and then there's three of those columns for recommendations for each episode. It's a lot. And I still get nervous every time because what if I can't think of the books? I'll remember tomorrow when I'm walking the dog, and then I'll email the guests. That's what happens. Cheryl, we're glad you're here.

[00:06:48] CHERYL: Thank you so much. It's really fun. And Ginger, I'm so glad to hear you're nervous because I am too, so that's great.

ANNE: What I like to tell all our guests is if we could work this out across time, space, and just logistics of talking and drinking coffee on mic at the same time, I wish we could just do this at my local coffee shop. We'd just be three readers around the table talking books. We would not be nervous a bit, except maybe when we first walked in the door and had to wave and go, "Hi, it's me. Are you Anne?" That would be the only awkward part, and then we'd just have a wonderful conversation.

GINGER: Well, if we're making requests, as much as I love coffee in Louisville, can we meet in Charleston, Cheryl? Because that is one of my favorite cities. My husband and I lived there for a few years, and I have a really fond place in my heart for Charleston.

CHERYL: Well, you should. It's awesome here. We love it.

GINGER: Lots of good bookstores, too.

CHERYL: Yes.

[00:07:43] ANNE: Well, Cheryl, tell us more. We have already learned that Charleston is near and dear to your heart, and we really want to give our readers a glimpse of what the life of our guest is like.

CHERYL: Well, I live in Charleston. We moved here just a few years ago, and so we are still falling in love with the city. My husband and I live here together. There's all the restaurants and the beautiful parks and beaches and history. So that's a lot of what we do while we live here.

Of course, I read. I needlepoint, learning to play mahjong, like half the country right now, I think. And then we travel a lot. We have four young adult children, and they're scattered everywhere from here to Japan. No one ever tells you how busy young adult children keep you. Thankfully, it's very fun. And then we own a large sailboat that we spend time on. Between our kids and our sailboat, we are also traveling a lot. So that's pretty much my life.

[00:08:41] ANNE: That sounds lovely. Cheryl, tell us about your reading life.

CHERYL: I have always thought of myself as a reader, and I think the other people in my family did, too. When my grandmother needlepointed a Christmas stocking for me, she put a little bookworm on my stocking. So I've always been a reader, but through high school and college, I got a technical education. I have an engineering degree, and I was very math-oriented. I like to read, but my English class experiences weren't great. I didn't fall in love with any books when I was in school, even though I like to read. And then when I went to college, I hope y'all are sitting down, I got through Georgia Tech without taking an English class. It's just crazy.

So, anyway, reading when I started working was kind of an escape from the numbers and an escape from daily work life. And then as my kids were born, I became a stay-at-home mom, and I kept reading, and it was just another way to be in a different world for a little bit, and still that escape and an ability to maybe learn something about somewhere else.

[00:09:50] But I didn't have a background in great books. There were a couple of times that I tried, and I always felt like I wasn't quite getting it. In particular, I read The Divine Comedy and loved it before we went on a trip to Italy. I really loved it, but I had this feeling that I was missing something when I came to it because I didn't know all of these backstories that are in it. And it just kind of sat there.

Then I had also read A Gentleman in Moscow, and it sent me down. I was reading Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and really, really enjoyed them, but that little Russian unit stopped. And I really didn't quite know how to satisfy that itch of learning great books until I came across a reading list by a man named Ted Gioia. I've been reading his work for a while, and he offered a year-long immersive humanities course that started in Plato, and I thought, "You know what? This is my chance to maybe get a hold of all of these things and try to get a framework for a big picture." And so I started reading it, and that's been my reading life for the last 52 weeks, actually.

[00:11:05] ANNE: I love the metaphor you shared in your submission about beginning to read the classics. It might just have been unique to the Russians, but do you remember what it was that you could share with us?

CHERYL: Yes. This is exactly how I felt, even with The Divine Comedy. When I was reading the Russians and anything that was supposedly a great book, I felt like I was coming into a movie about a half hour late. I could understand where the plot started from where I got there, but I felt like I was missing something. And when I came across Ted's list, it was like I'd found the rewind button, and all of a sudden, I was able to maybe go back to the beginning with Plato and start at the beginning and kind of get a big picture idea of what was really going on. And that, in fact, did happen. I'm really grateful.

[00:11:58] ANNE: Well, you may have just begun to answer the question that I was formulating, which was, I think, a lot of readers would have been like, "Guess this isn't for me," or "that ship passed me by." I'm wondering what ignited that streak of perseverance. Or maybe you just found the list and saw the solution to the problem you hadn't been able to articulate.

CHERYL: Well, it was a little bit of that, but I think I knew I... well, one of my sons was very influential. He's a classics major from UChicago, master's from UChicago, and a philosophy undergrad, a philosophy and math. So great combo. And he would tell me about the books he was reading and sometimes pass them on to me. But I was like, "This is too much. I cannot understand this." And I finally realized these books have endured for a long time because somebody can read them. Why not me? And when I found the list, Ted had put these in an order that seemed approachable and I could handle it.

[00:12:57] ANNE: Cheryl, I'm so curious to hear... Now, I imagine that everything you learned and all your takeaways could fill many books or a whole podcast series of your own. But I'm wondering just the nugget or two you find yourself reaching for most when people go, "Wait, you did what?" Was this about your Great Books project?

CHERYL: It's a great privilege to get to know people from across thousands of years who invite you into their lives. It's an enormous privilege. And who am I to say that I'm not going to take full advantage of that? I've gotten to know a man who watched the Greek soldiers defend their country against Persia. And I've gotten to know a woman who had a wry eye for couples dynamics in England. And it's Jane Austen. And I've gotten to know a man who was a slave who held on to His humanity while He was a slave, so much so that when He escaped, He was able to explain what slavery does not just to this enslaved person but to the people doing the enslaving. These things are amazing and they're all just sitting there and I can take advantage of that. That's huge. That's huge.

[00:14:25] You know, I can tell you another thing I learned. I learned patience. Like with myself, when I don't understand something, I know how to go back and I can figure it out. I can slow down or I can find somebody to explain it to me. And I learned patience with the author because I quit wanting the author to tell me the story I wanted to hear, and I was able to let the author tell me the story they want to tell, at their pace.

I had gotten into a bad habit of just wanting to read for plot and always what happens, what happens. And I realized that I was missing out on some beautiful characters and some beautiful people if I would just sit and let the story unfold the way the author wanted to tell it. So I became more patient.

GINGER: I think about what one of our book club authors said in the title of his book, that by reading the classics we are able to break bread with the dead. And I don't think that was unique to him. I think he was quoting a classical writer whose name has escaped me. But I think that's amazing that we can converse not just with the people that we know and not just with the people that are writing books in our time, but with all of humanity. It's one of the things that I love about reading classics.

[00:15:43] CHERYL: You know, it's one of those things you know in your head but if you experience it over and over again, like I did every time I'd go back and read Plato or I read the Odyssey, and you meet these people where they are and get to know them just over and over again it becomes very clear what you're doing. It's amazing. What a gift!

GINGER: One of the things that always strikes me when I read a classic is this can sound very heady, and it is beautiful. I love it. I think we're the same in that way Cheryl. But one of the things that always strikes me is people are people, humans are humans. I thrill when there is this little snippet of human nature that I think, "Oh, yeah I saw that last week with the guy on the bus beside me on TikTok here in my modern city.

[00:16:29] People are the same throughout history and so it's always so fun to discover how human nature changes but how much it stays the same. And in that way they are so accessible.

CHERYL: I totally agree with you. It's been amazing to meet these people and yet they could be sitting, like you said, beside me on the bus. People just don't change. And it's so fun to get to understand that.

I don't mean to sound so heady because this is actually really about my heart, but these things happen because you just decide to pick up something that maybe is a little bit out of your wheelhouse. It's amazing what it can do to your heart. Take it out and stomp it all over.

GINGER: At times.

CHERYL: Yeah.

ANNE: Cheryl, in hearing what your project has meant to you, we know that the project is over. The reading project never ends, but it sounds like you went from being on a road where you could see the stops ahead of you very clearly and then the road ended. Would you speak to us from that moment? I mean, I imagine there's a lot of freedom, but also other emotions.

[00:17:43] CHERYL: Well for a while I thought that the road ended. In my mind, it was like coming to a door. But what I realized was that this reading project was just bringing me to the door so I could open it and go through. So I don't think of this as a road that's ended. I'm actually standing at an intersection with 45 different ways I could go. And maybe I'll circle back and get another one later but right now I'm kind of sitting pondering, which one of these do I go down next?

And I'm very excited about that. It's opening this door and I get to step through and I have this the only way I can think of it. I have this scaffolding of what I worked so hard to learn and now, as I walk through the door, I'm bringing all that with me. And I get to hang the next things if I know where to put them.

[00:18:38] And they're not just going to sit randomly. I've got places where I can like, "Oh, this guy that I'm meeting in this book, I know what that's like. And this guy also had that go on." I'll be able to start connecting things better, but boy, I was really sad when I got to about week 50 because I thought, "What's going to happen? What's going to happen?" And when I finished week 52, that's when I realized it was a door, not a dead end. And I'm super excited about that.

ANNE: Oh, the road continues.

CHERYL: Yeah.

ANNE: Now you have multiple routes to an indeterminate destination.

CHERYL: Yes.

ANNE: Although maybe you envision the destination. I don't know. How do you envision where you stand?

CHERYL: I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be nerdy, but there's the last lines of C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle.

ANNE: It's a book podcast.

CHERYL: Yeah, it is, isn't it? C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle, the last of Narnia series, and He talked about how they had thought that everything that had happened was only the preparation. And as they've stood at the edge, they were at the true Narnia, ready to have the true adventures, and it was only just beginning. And that's how I feel.

[00:19:51] ANNE: I love it.

CHERYL: All right.

ANNE: How about we hear the books you brought to the show, and we hear about what kind of adventures you'll be embarking on next? And then Ginger and I... I don't know. I kind of feel like, Ginger, you don't need me to butt in with any recommendations, but if I can't help myself, then maybe we'll tag-team you, Cheryl. But-

GINGER: We could probably give her another 52, like the Anne and Ginger list. Danger, danger.

CHERYL: I mean, honestly, I do feel like I could read another 52 equally valid books, and it would be awesome. So don't do that yet.

GINGER: No, we'll try to refrain from a few fewer than that.

CHERYL: Yeah, okay.

ANNE: But I propose we start with your books.

CHERYL: Okay.

ANNE: Are you on board?

CHERYL: I'm on board.

ANNE: Okay. Oh, I didn't mean to use a sailing metaphor for you.

CHERYL: No, it's totally fine.

ANNE: It doesn't feel inappropriate. Cheryl, you do know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one that you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we will suss out where you'd like to head next. How did you choose these today?

[00:20:55] CHERYL: One is a long-time favorite and I've already said it. The other two were books that really stuck with me that I unexpectedly loved, loved, loved during this project. So, the first one is Don Quixote, which was a total surprise to me. I had never read it before. It's written in the 1600s.

My only knowledge of Don Quixote until I had read this book: there's a Picasso pen and ink drawing, and it's very scribbly. And I know that everybody has seen it, and it's Don Quixote on his donkey with Sancho Panza with him. And it's just like a scribble, and it's black and white. And I thought, "Ooh, it's going to be a yucky book and I'm not going to like it." And I open it up and it is delightful. It's so funny. Cervantes is making fun of his main character, but he's doing it gently. And there's these fun adventures. Cervantes has so much to say about reading in that book. It's hilarious.

[00:22:00] At one point, some of Don Quixote's neighbors get worried about him and they think he's having delusions. And so they decide his problem is too many books, so they go over and burn some of his books to help him out. It's just a charming, charming book. And I didn't expect that. I didn't expect how much Cervantes had to say about people in that book at all. The whole thing was unexpected and absolutely fun.

ANNE: I'm happy to hear it.

GINGER: What I was trying not to tell Cheryl before we started recording is that I have never been able to make it through Don Quixote. My husband loves this book. We tried to have a spouse book club at one point, years and years ago. And I was hoping, when I saw this was the first book you loved, that you would somehow be able to talk me into giving it another try.

Here is my theory on why it didn't work for me the last time because to hear you talk about how fun it is, I think I was approaching this like a serious work of literature. Do you hear the capitalization in my voice there? And I don't know that I was giving it its due. Maybe I'm a better reader now. Maybe coming to it at a different place would inspire me to give it a try. But I loved hearing you talk about it. So, maybe this is my urge to go for it again.

[00:23:13] CHERYL: I think you should, because I came at this book midway through the project. And so, I was a better reader at spotting funny things. But there's plenty of humor in the reading list that I did. So I was better at spotting the funny parts and knowing when he's kind of tongue-in-cheek. I was totally ready for it on this book. So, I think you should try it again.

GINGER: I'm excited to hear that.

ANNE: Oh, I can't wait to hear how this works out.

CHERYL: Me too.

ANNE: Cheryl, what's the second book you love?

CHERYL: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. This one was a total shocker for me. It was another book that we were only supposed to read the first couple of chapters as part of the reading project, and I loved it so much that I read the whole thing. I was supposed to read it in high school, and the only memory of it from high school for me is... do y'all know what CliffsNotes were?

ANNE: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:06] CHERYL: Okay. My only memory of this book is using the CliffsNotes in high school. And so it was a total shock, again, that I loved this book so much. I loved Huck's honesty. I think part of it for me is now I have raised two boys, and I opened this book, and in chapter one I saw a kid I know. And I just wanted every good thing for him.

So, falling in love with that character was a surprise, but then also his honesty and letting us see how he grows, letting us see how he changes, especially in regard to his opinion of his friend Jim, who becomes his friend through the course of the story. And just Huck's honesty and his forthrightness and everything that he thinks, it's so genuine. I just loved it.

[00:25:00] GINGER: I'm always here for a coming-of-age novel and I don't know that there is a better hallmark. Again, just with the humor. Mark Twain can really move you clearly, and also he's so funny. And yeah, I think we do sometimes a disservice to our young people to hand them these great books, and hopefully they can form a lot of young minds and hearts. But I also wonder if so many of us would be served better by being handed that book after you've met your first favorite six-year-old, or you have fallen in love the first time for yourself. I think about that a lot. I always tease that I need to make a classics list and then say what age you should really read that classic book.

CHERYL: I totally agree. I think it was Winston Churchill who said that it's a pity to come to a great book too early in life. I think about that now that I'm my age. And sometimes I feel like I'm coming too late to them, but at least I came to them.

[00:25:59] GINGER: Well, here's a reminder, and I don't think this will be the last time I talk about this, but to reread those books, because sometimes they'll say one thing to you at 15 and something entirely different at 45.

CHERYL: Totally agree on that. Yes. And there are a lot of books that stand up really well to rereading.

ANNE: Cheryl, what's the third book you love?

CHERYL: Well, it's the book I already mentioned, A Gentleman in Moscow. This is probably my all-time favorite book. If there is a person in fiction that I could have dinner with, it would be the Count. I think that Amor Towles performed a miracle in creating this adventure story in the four walls of the Metropole Hotel. I love everything about it. I love the side characters. I love the way he told the story. I love the Count. I love the foreignness of the setting. Gosh, I've probably read that book five or six times. Talk about rereading. And it's up to the point where I can just pull it open and listen or read anywhere. I have it on audio as well, so I can just pop it open and start reading and kind of know where I am. That book always stands up to rereading.

[00:27:10] And the other part of it that I love and I will be forever grateful for is that it did send me to read some other great books. I read War and Peace because of it. And wow, I thought that was going to be absolutely unreadable. And it's this series of great love stories and this war story. And I had no idea. And then it sent me to read a lot of history. I'm so grateful for that part. But wow, what a story.

ANNE: What brought you to this book?

CHERYL: You, Anne. What Should I Read Next?. I think it was either this or the Modern Mrs. Darcy blog. So, yeah, I found out about that book from you. And then I've read all of his other books now. So, love them.

ANNE: It was the first book we read together in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club post the initial, "Hey, let's try this thing," Summer Reading Club in September 2016.

[00:28:06] GINGER: Special place in my heart, too. And I have also read it more than once. And now you're making me want to read it again. It's a great character. Yeah, I truly think this might be one that... you mentioned two other books that have stood the test of time. I genuinely think people might be reading this 100 years, 200 years, hundreds of years hence.

CHERYL: I agree, because it offers you such a good window into a world that is gone, hopefully, thankfully. But the characters in there are so memorable. Actually, every time I think of the book, I also think of Misha, his friend. He gives one of the most impassioned speeches in the whole book. I can tear up even thinking about it. Obviously, it doesn't take a lot to tear me up.

GINGER: Good books can do that.

CHERYL: Yes.

ANNE: Cheryl, did you read this one before or after your deepened adventures with the Russian novelists?

CHERYL: Oh, no. This is what set off my adventures with the Russians. This was the start. I called it my Russian rabbit hole.

[00:29:07] ANNE: Gentlemen to the Russians to the 52 books.

CHERYL: Yeah.

ANNE: Whoa. Wow.

GINGER: I might have a tiny literary crush on Amor Towles. I don't mind telling the two of you.

CHERYL: He came to Charleston last year. He was awesome.

GINGER: Yes. His mind is so, so fine and so clever.

ANNE: He came to Louisville too. He was great.

GINGER: You guys, you're killing me.

CHERYL: I think what's interesting is he writes these really great novels that are not alike.

GINGER: That's right.

CHERYL: Like The Lincoln Highway, oh.

GINGER: See, I'm glad-

CHERYL: That's a great book.

GINGER: I'm making notes here because I had on my list to make sure that you had read both that and his short stories. So, luckily, you're whittling down my massive list for me. So good.

CHERYL: I think The Lincoln Highway made my best book of 2024. I'm trying to keep a record of what were the best books, but I haven't been doing that very long.

[00:30:02] ANNE: Cheryl, perhaps a different headspace now, but tell us about a book that was not right for you. And I'd love to hear your theories as to why it wasn't a fit, not aligned with your taste, poor timing, not what you thought you were getting into. What did you choose?

CHERYL: I read Dead Wake by Erik Larson. I thought it might be for me because I think I had read... didn't he write The Devil in the White City? And I liked it. So Dead Wake is about the sinking of the Lusitania. It's a very sad story. It doesn't need heightened suspense to make it sadder because it's already a huge tragedy.

And what he did when he wrote this book is he had you follow closely along with several sets of characters. And then partway through the book, half of them die. I felt so emotionally manipulated by that. I never do this. I threw the book across the room. I know the room I was in. I was next to a fireplace. I thought I might throw it in the fireplace. I was so mad that he would do this and make me abuse my feelings like that. That was not respectful.

[00:31:18] I just thought it was manipulative. And that, on his part, I was like, I'm done. I don't like sad endings to begin with, but sad endings that are justified. But I felt like this... he had heightened the emotional part of it in order to elicit a feeling from me that I thought that was... that was too much of an ask. He had no respect for the reader on that book at least. Wow, I really came down, didn't I? I don't love a sad ending, but I really don't like to be made to fall in love with a character and then kill them off in a really manipulative way.

ANNE: Duly noted.

GINGER: Do you read much nonfiction? Because I noticed the three books you love happen to be novels. So what's your relationship with nonfiction?

CHERYL: I like nonfiction. I'm actually reading a history right now. Love it. Some of my favorite books from the year-long project were histories. I love memoir. Yeah, I have no problem with nonfiction. I've read a lot of narrative nonfiction and enjoyed it. This just set me off for a very specific reason. And I was like, "Okay, well, I don't know that I can know that when I'm starting, but I can sure be on guard for it."

[00:32:31] GINGER: There you go. Okay, good to know.

ANNE: Cheryl, what have you been reading lately?

CHERYL: A couple of books that were at the tail end of my project. One of the really interesting ones to me was a writer named Susan Sontag. She wrote in like the 70s. She wrote a book called On Photography. Being a mom, I always had the camera in my hand. And I was a horse show mom, and so I got actually very good at taking pictures. And I took a lot of pictures. I was quite good at it.

So I had a relationship in my head with photography, but then here comes this woman about how photography and memory and reality aren't all the same thing. And what does that do to how we think about all of them? It was a really fun thing. I had never thought about it before. And now I think that anybody who walks around with a camera in their pocket, which is basically everyone, should read her thoughts about how photographs affect your memory. I was crazy.

[00:33:32] I also just finished Theo of Golden, which was very high on my list that so many people had been reading while I was in the midst of my project. So I didn't have time to read it. So I've just finished it. One of the most fun parts of that is that unexpectedly, so many of my friends are also reading that. And it's been really fun to be part of a communal experience.

I did enjoy a lot of the book. That part's been so fun to share in that enjoyment with my friends without even planning it. It wasn't like we were reading it for a book club. We were just reading it.

GINGER: Oh, I had three friends one day text me to see if I had read this at one point, maybe months back. But it was definitely in the zeitgeist. So I'm glad you got to be a part of that.

CHERYL: Oh my gosh. I hadn't been a part of anything like that for at least a year because I'd been doing my own thing over here. And so that was really, really fun.

[00:34:28] Then one of the last books I've just finished is Gabriel García Márquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude. It was another one that we had to read a couple of chapters for in the project. I love magical realism. I love it. Apparently, I didn't know this, this book kind of was one of the early ones in the 20th century that was magical realism. So the project introduced me to it.

I had tried to read this book maybe 15 or 15 years ago or so and I couldn't do it. And I think it was that patience problem that I had with not letting an author tell me his story. And now I had developed patience. And this book is so dreamlike and a little wacky. And I was willing to let it be those things this time instead of being like, "Well, this doesn't make sense. That's crazy." Which I know you have to also suspend your disbelief for magical realism. But I didn't get impatient with like, you know, there's like 20 characters, and there's four first names in the book. And it's really funny. So there's like four Aurelianos. It's just you have to keep people straight. But I kind of put all that aside and just enjoyed the book. And I really did love it.

[00:35:44] GINGER: If you can read the Russians, I think you can handle Gabriel García Márquez.

CHERYL: Yeah. I've just finished reading those. I'm actually currently reading a history right now because I'm getting ready to go to England in a couple months. I'm doing a little vacation reading, pre-vacation reading.

ANNE: That sounds lovely. Cheryl, thank you for telling us about your books. As we move into putting books on your radar to potentially read next, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

CHERYL: I have never done what I just did, this intense project. I loved it. And I loved growing as a reader, but it's a lot. And so I'm trying to figure out a way to grow and yet still have time to do fun books. I mean, I like a spy novel for vacation or, you know, Theo of Golden. It was fun to have time to read those.

[00:36:45] I'm still wanting to do these projects oriented around different things and read intentionally. I think that's the way I want to think of it. Read intentionally, but I also need to build some fun books in. So I'm trying to figure out a way to have that combination. Like I said, we're going to Northern England this summer, and so I've kind of got a little project already started for myself, but I don't have a fun English book in there. Not even Jane Austen. And so that kind of thing. I'm trying to figure out how to plug some more modern things in and just allow some time. I'm really not a grind, but I feel like I am sometimes [inaudible 00:37:26].

ANNE: Has your project changed the idea of what kinds of books are entertaining to you?

CHERYL: A million percent.

ANNE: Would you say more about that?

CHERYL: Yes. For one thing, I read across genres now. I can read a play really easily now. I've read a lot of Greek drama and I loved it. I loved Shakespeare. It changed me for reading, you know, different kinds of literature. Like I said, I have a patience to read Gabriel García Márquez. His book is so dreamlike, and yet, you know, I also like to read things that are more plot-driven.

[00:38:01] I do find myself really lingering on characters. I find that I fall in love with characters so much now. I did a little bit before, obviously I was in love with the Count. Don't tell my husband. And I read poetry now. Who am I? Who reads...? I read poetry. That's crazy. I'm just willing to pick up and try a lot more things now. I hope that makes sense. I like narrative nonfiction a lot, but I could read a history instead of reading narrative nonfiction now equally happily.

ANNE: Has your project changed your idea of what kinds of lighter books appeal to you?

CHERYL: I'm afraid so. I think it might've made me pickier.

ANNE: I'm just looking for information. I mean, you can feel about it however you want, but your answer is not going to disappoint us.

GINGER: No.

ANNE: Would you say more about that?

[00:38:50] CHERYL: I've encountered some great stories and some great storytellers in the past year. And so my patience with less good storytellers is not... That might be the one place I'm less patient, is if a story isn't being told as well. And I'm not as happy with it.

I had a friend who said, "Oh, you should read this Colleen Hoover novel. A bunch of friends are reading it." And I thought, "Okay, oh, that is not for me." It's too much in a lot of ways. And it's also just not that interesting. On the other hand, I like Liane Moriarty a lot. And What Alice Forgot is still one of my favorite books because the premise is so fun. And I think she executed it really well.

So a lot of popular fiction is frustrating to me. This is the other thing that I noticed about myself this year is that I have a great regard for a person as an individual. I don't like things to be reduced to stereotypes at all. And I didn't realize I felt that strongly about it until this project, where I was reading about individuals. And reading across time, especially reading before about the 1700s, I realized how deeply I love that view of a person as an individual and not as part of a group. I really don't want to read things that have agendas. And it feels like sometimes it's easy to fall into that. And I'm sure people have reasons for writing it, it's just that I don't want to read that.

[00:40:29] GINGER: One thing that I struggle with, with my love of classics and an increasing desire to read the best, and that could be across any genre. I don't read a lot of, say, fantasy. It's just not my go-to comfort genre. But I want to read the two or three best ones that my fantasy-loving friends have read throughout the year, or a romance novel, or some of the genres that just don't happen to be in my personal comfort zone.

And so I don't always know how to balance that, that I keep standards without snobbery. It's a really hard thing that you do encounter when you are trying to go after the best. But yet you don't want to, as I think our team member Leigh always reminds us, don't yuck someone else's yum. It's just not my yum.

CHERYL: No, I'm not trying to. It's not for me. I like how you said that. I don't want to be a snob. I want to read the best. Life is short. You only get so much time to read so many books. And so I want to read the really good ones.

GINGER: I think you put that beautifully.

[00:41:34] ANNE: I did notice you say twice, regarding Dead Wake, and then we were chatting before we hit record, that how a story is told and how the author unspools the information and how it's structured, like these things really matter to you.

CHERYL: They do.

ANNE: It's not just like, tell me a good story to take me away. There's more than that that you're looking for, which is true for many readers.

CHERYL: Yeah. I mean, I think that that's true. And that's been true for a long time, though. I read Dead Wake when it first came out. And I also read World War Z, which is fiction, right? But it's written as a memoir, and so you know the guy writing it survives because he's writing it. And so knowing that, I could comfortably read the whole book without being worried the whole time that he was going to die because he didn't, because he was writing.

[00:42:31] I actually really, really loved World War Z. I thought it was so fun. And it didn't bother me at all being written as a memoir. I think if it had been written like spooling it out as a story, I couldn't have read it because I would have been worried the whole time that he would have died. I don't want my heartstrings to be plucked unnecessarily.

ANNE: I'm thinking of how when Will and I both read in the same season Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer. Have you read that?

CHERYL: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: Okay. I was just thinking that'd be an amazing adventure story for your list but-

CHERYL: I read it on an airplane. It was a really long airplane ride and it was freezing cold on the airplane because sometimes they can be cold. I'm reading this book about a cold adventure and it's so cold. I will never forget that experience.

ANNE: Well, the book is dedicated to those who died on the mountain that season. And I was constantly flipping back and forth to the dedication because I wanted to know the fates of the people I was reading about. Will didn't do it that way.

[00:43:36] CHERYL: I'm pretty sure I noticed that too because I have a good memory of reading that book. I enjoyed the experience of it. Now that you say that, that would be part of why I didn't mind it because I knew people were going to die, but it was okay.

ANNE: Okay. We will keep all this in mind. So we're looking for lighter, but still really well-written, some things that aren't terribly challenging that you can still get lost in, but you have so much available to you. You want books that you'll feel really good about having chosen to spend your time with.

CHERYL: Yes. The other part of it is I'm happy to read classic adjacent or the fan fiction, kind of like A Thousand Acres was King Lear, which I loved A Thousand Acres, and The Brothers K was crazy good. I would absolutely be happy to try the, like if it's really well-written, some of the takeoffs on Shakespeare or Dickens or any of these classic type books.

[00:44:48] ANNE: Okay. So, Cheryl, you loved Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain and A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles. Not for you was Dead Wake by Erik Larson. And lately you've read On Photography by Susan Sontag, Theo of Golden by Allen Levi and One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez. And you're looking for something different after your great books here.

Ginger Horton, what are you thinking?

GINGER: I'm so excited to do the honors. My mind is going in a million directions, but I think I have the three for you. I'm going to start off and give you the two that I'm more sure of. And then I'm going to give you a little choose-your-own-adventure.

But the way I structured this in my mind... I love your metaphors about going down a road. The way that my mind usually thinks about books that add to each other in conversation are hooks. So I remember the very first time in this Great Books program that I'm in that I came across a reference in another writer's work to "clear and distinct," which is such a Descartes or a Cartesian as I've learned phrase that I thought, "He's explicitly referencing so and so."

[00:46:10] I always think that now I can put that pot on that hook. Then I can fill that pot with more stuff. So that's the way I'm thinking of it. So each one of these will be a hook that you can then hang a lot of other things from. And so any of these books could become a next mini project for you. So that's what I am endeavoring to do for you today. But all of them also stand completely on their own. You could read it as a one-time thing, get excited about something else and leave it on the shelf.

But the first one I have to recommend is kind of a cheat. True to my maximalist tendencies, the book that I'm thinking of actually has the word or the number 1,000 in it. And it is 1,000 Books to Read Before You Die by James Mustich, who has indeed been on the What Should I Read Next? podcast. Is this one you're familiar with, Cheryl?

CHERYL: Yes.

GINGER: Okay, what's your experience with that? Have you read it? Is it sitting on your coffee table?

CHERYL: No, I haven't read it. I thought, "1,000 books, dude, I need to just start one."

GINGER: Yes.

[00:47:06] CHERYL: It was a little overwhelming. I've tried to like... but yeah, no, I think at this point, I'm more confident at something like this.

GINGER: Well, here's why I actually really like this for you. It's got a couple things going for it. Number one, you could absolutely sit it on your coffee table and read one entry or three entries at a time, say over the course of a year, which is exactly what I did. I read, you know, however many pages. I divided it out, read it over the course of the year, highlighted the ones that sounded good to me, and then started in on reading some of those. And I'm still in that process. And I think I will be for the rest of my life before I die. That's his only qualification there.

But what else I really love about it is listening to you talk about books. I think you're fantastic at something around book club that we call pithy book talk. And I think James is also so good at pithy book talk. He is such a good judge of literature himself, that you really trust his taste. If a book sounds good, it probably is good.

[00:48:04] I also think that just reading about books, being exposed to books, I won't get to all 1,000 of these. And you still feel like you have had a little bit of an exposure with this book. And so it is a little bit of a masterclass in what is in culture.

Something else I really like about this is not just the way he talks about books and the options for you, of course, but also that he has excellent taste that spans old, old classics, and very modern, and a lot in between. So he was telling me about books that probably are out of print, they might be on the shelf of my dad or my grandparents, maybe they were really popular in 1967. And there's just maybe less of a chance that I would have come across that because I would have been not alive yet or quite small. So he has this sort of middle ground that I find really refreshing. And they are some of the favorite books that I would have never come across.

[00:48:57] I think about Oranges by John McPhee has been one of my favorite reading experiences. I discovered that through 1,000 Books to Read Before You Die. I think this could be not only just a really fun read for you. It doesn't have to be done in one sitting. But tell me what you think about that.

CHERYL: Actually, I really love it. I think I love it now. I think that I would have felt overwhelmed a year ago. But now that I have a better confidence in my own reading, and a better background, I think that I'm actually very interested in that now. And it's fun to read what other people think about the books that you like, or don't like. I didn't like every book I read this year.

GINGER: Of course. Great. Well, and I wouldn't recommend this just to anyone, because it's not the kind of book that most people would want to sit and read cover to cover. But I think for you, it might really be something. One thing I meant to ask you before we started is, are you the kind of person that reads one book at a time or do you have a few in process?

[00:49:52] CHERYL: Really depends on what the books are. But this one sounds like I could do it a little bit at a time while I'm reading other things because it's not like a narrative arc.

GINGER: Yes, exactly. I think that is one key part. If this is going to bog you down, then maybe go along to one of the others on my list.

CHERYL: No, I think that sounds really cool.

ANNE: Cheryl, I'm glad you're not overwhelmed by the 1,000 books. But I also think you may enjoy browsing his index in the back, not in one sitting. It's too much for most readers. There's little checkboxes where you can check off and order the books you've already read. And I think you may really perhaps enjoy, especially after your year-long project, just seeing what you've read.

CHERYL: I agree. I took a picture of them all. But yeah, I think that that would be kind of nice to see that too. I agree.

GINGER: And lots of mini project lists there because he groups some of those topics.

CHERYL: Oh, he does?

GINGER: Yeah, thanks for reminding me of that.

[00:50:49] CHERYL: Yeah, I like that. Because, you know, if you're coming at this like I am, and you're just kind of trying to like get books together, you only know about what you know about. This book sounds super helpful for that. Thank you.

ANNE: Yeah, discovery and sifting.

CHERYL: Yes.

GINGER: Okay, well, the second book that I have in mind might sort of go along with your English visit. But my question is, have you read — this is not the book, but this is the setup — have you read 84, Charing Cross Road?

CHERYL: I think I did.

GINGER: It's by Helene Hanff. She is a writer living in New York who writes a bookstore owner living in London, England. And she's writing to request one particular book that was a little hard to track down. The two of them began a correspondence and-

CHERYL: Okay, I haven't read this.

GINGER: ...friendship ensues. Highly recommended. But the one I want to recommend specifically to you is called Q's Legacy. And this was sort of her follow up to 84, Charing Cross Road, which you could read in one sitting, I have no doubt. It's a really slim little book of letters. That might be a good prequel here.

[00:51:55] But Q's Legacy is essentially the backstory about why she wrote requesting that book to begin with. Q is a humanities teacher, a British humanities teacher called Arthur Quiller-Couch. And he had sort of essentially, I think what it sounds like to me, Ted Joa's humanities course for her time.

CHERYL: Oh, wow.

GINGER: You know, maybe when she was living, he would have been the Ted back then. And so she sets out to take his course essentially, and, you know, begins a correspondence with these friends. They write back and forth about books. Q's Legacy is really kind of the literary memoir version of her syllabus. And I find it delightful. Whenever someone says they've read 84, Charing Cross Road, the next sentence I ask is, but have you read Q's Legacy? I love it even more. I really do. And I think it's good, nerdy fun. And it will also send you down a project if you so wish.

CHERYL: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that sounds so fun. Thank you.

[00:52:50] GINGER: It's also just a delightful read because Helene Hanff is such a funny writer. You mentioned that you loved humor. She's real funny, quite witty.

CHERYL: When did she write it?

GINGER: Oh, that is a great question. I believe that would have probably been in the 80s. It would have been a follow-up to 84, Charing Cross Road, which I think was written probably more in the 60s or 70s.

CHERYL: Okay. Yeah, that sounds really cool.

GINGER: But it has that old feel. She feels like she could be one of those, you know, Hollywood gumption-y actresses. She's very bantery.

CHERYL: I found in this project that I just finished that I really, really enjoyed some of the mid-20th-century writers. Shocking. But it was just really fun to read them. And so this sounds like a great addition. Thank you.

GINGER: It's also quite short. Okay, for my last pick, I'm going to make you do a little decision here because my mind is going in a couple of different directions. Would you like a modern literary novel written based on a classic play or would you like — actually, both of these are based on a play — or would you like another modern literary novel but a little bit more of a gritty, mysterious element based on a very different kind of play, but it could send you off on another syllabus type series?

[00:54:12] CHERYL: I think I want the gritty.

GINGER: Okay, okay. That is what I find to be a little-known Margaret Atwood title called Hag-Seed. This was part of the Hogarth Shakespeare series where different famous writers rewrote some of the Shakespearean plays. And this one is based on The Tempest, which is one of my favorite plays.

CHERYL: Oh, I just read it earlier this year.

GINGER: Oh, that'll be fresh in your mind.

CHERYL: Yes.

GINGER: So this is the story of a man who is trying to revive a prison theater program. He is sort of confronting his past. There is that same kind of betrayal involved. The setting is a prison. It is Shakespeare's The Tempest. It is a little grittier, but I think what it could do is it could send you down that path.

[00:54:59] A lot in that Hogarth Shakespeare series were really, really fine novels and written by excellent writers like Margaret Atwood. But I feel like when people talk about Margaret Atwood, they talk about The Handmaid's Tale, rightly so, you know, some of her other more well-known books, but I don't hear people talking about Hag-Seed that often. But I really loved this one.

CHERYL: That sounds great. I'm very interested in reading that. Thank you.

GINGER: Okay. So all three of those could really send you down a path of a syllabus and Q's Legacy, another Shakespeare retelling grouping, and then of course, the big tome, 1,000 books, or however many of those you so choose.

CHERYL: That's fine. No, that sounds really cool. And I appreciate your thinking about the big world of books and how you find the right books and that 1,000 books you should read... you read before you die. That sounds very helpful for me. Thank you.

GINGER: Well, as Anne usually asks our guests, what do you think you'll read next?

[00:55:55] CHERYL: So I think because of our England trip, I'm going to read Q's Legacy and 84, Charing Cross Road. I think that I'm going to read those because that'll blend in really well with that. But part of my reading going forward after this project, I found I loved Shakespeare. Like loved it. The big surprise. And so I am going to be reading one Shakespeare play a month until I finish. And I love the idea, not just of the Margaret Atwood novel, but the fact that there's these others, that's very interesting to me. Thank you.

GINGER: Give them all a look. Good. I'm so excited to hear that.

ANNE: We're excited. You're excited. Look, this doesn't even count as one more because if we've already talked about two Helene Hanff. The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street is her book about finally traveling to London to meet the bookseller that she corresponded with and his family and associates. And I don't believe she makes it as far north as York, but she does take many a jaunt out to the surrounding London countryside to see the sights while she's there.

[00:57:01] The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street because that's where her hotel is and someone teases her about how she just holds court. She entertains visitors and dresses up and goes out in the world to be squired around seeing the sights. It's charming.

GINGER: Sounds like a great life, actually.

ANNE: It does. It does.

GINGER: That could be such a fun trilogy because, again, they're all quite slim, and so you could probably tuck those in your bag and read those on the airplane if you were so inclined.

ANNE: Yeah, indeed. That sounds great. Oh, I'm so excited.

ANNE: Cheryl, thank you so much for being our guinea pig and for joining us today.

CHERYL: It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

GINGER: And here's the real question. Am I allowed to email you with the 11 billion more thoughts that I had?

CHERYL: Please. Please do.

GINGER: Before they come tumbling out of my mouth and this podcast is 17 hours long.

CHERYL: Yes, because there's no limit on email. So please do.

GINGER: I love it.

ANNE: And Ginger, thank you for bringing yourself and your book recommendations to the show today.

GINGER: This was great fun.

ANNE: It's been a pleasure. You too. Thank you so much.

CHERYL: Thank you.

[00:58:01] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Cheryl, and we would love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next. Find Cheryl on Substack and other platforms at Crack the Book. We will have all those links in our show notes, and that's where we'll also share all the titles we talked about in today's episode. That's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Follow our show on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext and follow along with updates from the MMD Book Club, spearheaded by Ginger Horton at MMD Book Club.

Join our email list to get updates on new episodes and other happenings at What Should I Read Next? HQ. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thank you to Ginger Horton for joining me today. And to all of the people who make this show happen every week. What Should I Read Next? is created by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

[00:59:12] Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

• The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri
• The Last Battle by C. S. Lewis
Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain
A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles
• The Lincoln Highway by Amor Towles
▵ Dead Wake by Erik Larson
• The Devil in the White City by Erik Larson
• On Photography by Susan Sontag
• Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
• One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez
• What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty
• World War Z by Max Brooks
• Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer
• A Thousand Acres by Jane Smiley
• King Lear by William Shakespeare
• The Brothers K by David James Duncan
• 1000 Books to Read Before You Die by James Mustich
• Oranges by John McPhee
• 84, Charing Cross Road by Helene Hanff
• Q’s Legacy by Helene Hanff
• Hag-Seed by Margaret Atwood
• The Tempest by William Shakespeare
• The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street by Helene Hanff

: Guest favorite book
▵: A book they didn’t love

• MMD Book Club Class: How to Set Your Reading Intentions
• MMD Book Club Class: A Close Look at Great Books
• A 12-Month Immersive Course in Humanities
• WSIRN Ep 165: 1000 Books to read before you die
• Hogarth Shakespeare Series
• Please support our sponsors.

The post Some people read the Great Books, so why not me? appeared first on Modern Mrs Darcy.

Today’s guest has found herself avoiding heavier topics in her reading life lately, and she’d love my help to find books that align with her word of the year, which is “light.”

Angela Frith is joining me today from Lexington, North Carolina, where she works as a K-12 curriculum developer and is a member of our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club and What Should I Read Next? Patreon communities.

As she considers her reading life this year, Angela would love her book picks to feel light, warm, and stimulating, but not overly stressful. Whether this means memoirs, found family stories, historical fiction, or fantasy, Angela is hoping for titles that feature the warmth she loves, without the chaos that also sometimes marks titles in these favorite genres. I have ideas to share.

We’d love to hear your ideas, too: please share your suggestions for Angela by leaving a comment below.

Connect with Angela on Instagram.

Our Patreon community is full of exciting ways to get more books in your life, from our weekly bonus episodes on a variety of themes to seasonal events like our upcoming Summer Reading Guide. We also rely on members of our Patreon community to help us out in a variety of ways, including, as you’ll hear today, volunteering when we need to fill a last-minute guest recording spot. Your monthly or annual support helps us pay our team and keep the lights on around here. We are so grateful to all of you who are or have been Patreon members. If you’re not a current member of our community, this is a great time of year to join. Find out more at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

​[00:00:00] ANGELA FRITH: It is fascinating. I keep telling my husband, "Oh my gosh, listen to this. This is what happened."

ANNE BOGEL: I mean, this is the laugh of recognition, as in like, "How is this real?"

ANGELA: It's amazing.

ANNE: She's an amazing writer, too.

ANGELA: This is going to be the nonfiction I'm going to be pushing on people.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:48] Readers, our Patreon community is full of exciting ways to get more books in your life, from our weekly bonus episodes on a variety of themes to seasonal events like our upcoming Summer Reading Guide. We also rely on members of our Patreon community to help us out sometimes by voting on the title of an upcoming episode, submitting questions for a live event, or, as you'll hear today, volunteering when we need to fill a last-minute guest recording spot.

Our Patreon members are also a huge part of what we do around here when it comes to the nuts and bolts of creating our podcast every week. Monthly or annual support helps us pay our team and keep the lights on around What Should I Read Next? HQ. We are so grateful to all of you who are or have been Patreon members.

If you're not a current member of our community, this is a great time of year to join. Find out more at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[00:01:42] Readers, today's guest has found herself avoiding heavier topics in her reading life lately, and she'd love my help to find books that align with her word of the year, which is "light". Angela Frith is joining me today from Lexington, North Carolina, where she works as a K-12 curriculum developer and is a member of our Modern Mrs. Darcy book club and What Should I Read Next? Patreon communities.

As she considers her reading life this year, Angela would love her book picks to feel light, warm, and stimulating, but not overly stressful. Whether this means memoirs, found family stories, historical fiction, or fantasy, Angela is hoping for titles that feature the warmth she loves, without the chaos that also sometimes marks titles in these favorite genres. I bet Angela's not the only reader looking for a bit more light these days, and I have ideas to share. Readers, let's get to it.

Angela, welcome to the show.

ANGELA: Thank you. Happy to be here.

[00:02:42] ANNE: Oh my gosh, the pleasure is mine. Now, readers wouldn't know that we've actually gotten to talk books in person before, I think maybe more than once, because I know we've gotten to meet in person at Bookmarks NC for the lovely literary festival that happens every September in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

ANGELA: Yes, I think we have met twice. The first time was right after I joined the book club. I joined right before the Charlie Lovett live podcast recording, and then went to the get-together for book club members before the book festival the last time you were here.

ANNE: Yes, those were both such enjoyable times. And now I'm trying to remember. I mean, I distinctly remember that Charlie Lovett event. That was so great. He's lovely. I'm excited about his new book coming out this fall. I'm sure Winston-Salem will roll out the red carpet for him. But all I can really remember is pre-pandemic and post-pandemic.

ANGELA: Yes, I know.

[00:03:39] ANNE: And the rest is just details. Well, I'm jealous that you live close to a place where there are just... it seems like great book things happening all the time.

ANGELA: It is.

ANNE: Okay. Well, tell us a little bit more about yourself so we get a sense of where you are geographically. What else would help us give the readers a glimpse of who you are as a person and then as a reader?

ANGELA: My husband and I live in Lexington, North Carolina, which is a small town about halfway between Winston-Salem and Charlotte. We are empty nesters. We have two adult children who are both in their 20s and who are out of college now, and both have their own careers, which is lovely. And I work as a K-12 curriculum developer.

In my free time, I read a lot, obviously. I'm in the Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club and on the Patreon for What Should I Read Next?. When not reading I like to hike. We like to day hike. I say I don't camp, but I'm very happy do anything you want during the day as long as I have a bed at night. So I love a good day hike.

[00:04:47] I've taken up crochet in the past year. So I'm enjoying doing something tactile that's not just with my brain, since I'm up in my head all the time for work and reading. We also enjoy traveling a lot. I always, if possible, like to go to museums when traveling or around here when there's a show of my undergrads and art history, but I rarely get to use it for work. But I do love keeping up with art and artists and I like to read about art and artists too a lot.

ANNE: Ooh. You know, I'm not sure that was in your submission, but I'm going to make a note.

ANGELA: It wasn't, but I just added it.

ANNE: That's fair game here. And it's not like we didn't already have plenty to choose from, but that'll add a little bit more to the mix. Angela, tell us a little bit about your reading life.

[00:05:38] ANGELA: I've always been a reader. I think the first book I remember reading was Ann Likes Red. And I think it is actually still packed up downstairs in my garage. My mom had saved a lot of my books as a child, and then my kids used them. And now I have packed them up, and they are safe for eventually one day when I maybe have grandchildren. They will get passed along. But I still clearly remember and have the patches still from elementary school that said I read 50 books. And I remember getting some very nerdy award about reading the most books.

So, yeah, a full reader way back in the summers, and this was in the 70s when you could do this, I remember my dad would drop me off at the public library, and he picked me up a few hours later. And I remember I would just go, and I think I'd always start with the Betsy-Tacy books. And I would just get books off and sit and read and he'd pick me back up a few hours later. That was how I spent a lot of days in the summer. So I've always been a reader. Obviously, over time it fluctuates, but I've always considered myself a big reader.

[00:06:54] Now I read a variety of genres. I like to mix it up. I find that I enjoy books a lot more if I read different genres. I try to not read too many of the same genre in a row. I don't enjoy them as much then. I like a series. I like a good series, but I don't want to read it all in a row because I enjoy it more if I can come back to it.

I use the library a lot. I'm lucky, even though I live in a smaller county, that we have a fabulous thing in North Carolina called NC Cardinal. My library can pretty much get about anything I want in the state. So they'll just get it from another library, and I can read it. So it's very nice. It helps, especially when you live in a smaller county that doesn't have as big of a library.

I read all sorts of formats. I do print, audio, and digital. I'll do an ebook. I've just kind of gotten into ebooks a little bit and audiobooks. I always have an audiobook going, and I always have a print or an ebook going too. So I mix it up a little bit.

[00:08:03] ANNE: You like to mix it up. What genres are you often drawn to?

ANGELA: Here's what I don't like. I don't do horror. I just not… not really horror. Like celebrity memoirs, don't do those. But I do like memoirs and essays. I like a good travel memoir. I love history. I like a lot of historical fiction I read. I like fantasy when I read... I don't read as much fantasy, but I almost always enjoy it when I do. But I tend to like more fantasy set around the edges of the real world as opposed to high fantasy with a whole separate world I have to learn. I like magical realism. I'm a Sarah Addison Allen completist. I love her books. Yeah, I read a little bit of everything. I'm more like, "Here's what I don't like," is more distinct thing.

ANNE: The shorter list.

ANGELA: Yeah, yeah. It's easier. I'm more flexible with other things.

[00:09:02] ANNE: I enjoy that for you. Angela, I'm curious to hear what's on your mind in this season of your reading life that brings you to the show right now. Now, I know part of the answer. Part of the answer is we just put out a call to help us fill a last-minute guest slot in our Patreon community. So thank you for heeding our call and making yourself available. But I'm also wondering where it is we're finding you in spring 2026, because I feel like, in a sense, we've been reading together for a long time.

ANGELA: Right. Over the past year, year and a half, I think my bandwidth in general has decreased. I think as far as tolerance for topics, and I'm just trying to protect my energy more, I think maybe with this stage of life. But in my reading life, it has surfaced as I just don't have as much of a tolerance for heavier topics that in the past I would have been like, okay, I'll read that, and I would keep working through it.

[00:10:07] So I enjoy things that have some depth to them, but just things that are heavy and stressful, I don't have as much tolerance for it. Over the past probably year, several books that I probably would have kept reading in the past, I DNF'd them. I put them down. I thought, "I can't do this right now." Or I didn't even pick them up because I just knew I'm not in a place where this is going to work for me.

Some that I DNF'd, I picked up H Is for Hawk by Helen Macdonald, thinking, "Okay, I like nature. I like being outside. Memoirs typically work well for me." So I thought, "I'm going to try this one." And I have some weird interest in falconry. I would love to at some point do a falconry class. Don't ask me why. I have no idea why. So I thought, "I'm going to read H Is for Hawk." And I listened to an hour or two of it, and I thought, "Oh, no..." It was just too depressing. I thought, "I can't do this right now."

[00:11:14] I also did not pick up, even though I know everyone in the world said it was fabulous and loved it, God of the Woods by Liz Moore, because I thought, no, child kidnapping, I just can't do this. And didn't even pick it up. I also DNF'd, I started, I tried twice to read it, Birnam Wood by Eleanor Catton. And then I was like, "I can't do it". And Grown Women by Sarai Johnson. I tried it, and I got about 50 pages in, and I thought, "Oh no, this is just not where my head is right now." I didn't need abuse, and I was not the place to read about difficult relationships.

ANNE: I hear you. I mean, I think that book is so well done. And also Shannan on our team at a recent meeting says, "Does this get happy?" And we were like, "No, this is not a happy book."

[00:12:10] ANGELA: Right. And I know there are tons of books that are incredibly well done, but I'm not in the place where that's... I don't want to feel icky or something when I'm reading a book or just unsettled. And I know if I'd kept reading it, that's how I would have felt.

ANNE: That's helpful to hear what you're seeking out and what you're not seeking in this season.

ANGELA: Yes. So I know this year, as I was thinking about the beginning of the year, I thought, "How do I want my year to be?" I don't do resolutions, but I like to think about intentions. And I also like to pick a word of the year, and I've done that for a few years. And I spent a week or two in the year kind of toying with different words. Like, "How do I want my year to feel? What do I want to remind myself of?"

And I kind of went through, I don't know, I went through several. But then I thought, "You know what? I finally settled on 'light'." And I thought, "Oh, that's a good word because it has different meanings to it, and I can use it in different ways. So I thought of it in terms I want to keep things light.

[00:13:19] Obviously, life is hard sometimes, and you can't always keep things light, but when I have a choice, I want to try to enjoy things and to keep it light and fun and read things that are light and entertaining for me.

Also, in terms of light, feels warm. And I love that feeling of being warm and safe and cozy. So that works. But also enlightening, because my brain likes to think about things. And I don't want total fluff. I want things that I can grab onto and be like, "Oh, wow, that was interesting," or "here is what I learned". So those are kind of what I was thinking about. And I've been thinking about what are books I can read that give me those qualities that I'm looking for?

​[00:14:11] ANNE: And how are you finding that pursuit? Because when I first read your submission, I thought, "Oh, this is so simple." But actually, we haven't had a conversation about it yet, but the intersection of light emotionally and enlightening is a lot harder for me, at least right off the bat, than either one in isolation.

ANGELA: Right. When I say enlightening, I don't mean that I have to learn something every single time. But I do like if it may make me think about something differently or make me go, "Oh, I didn't know that," or "Oh wow, I really like this genre I didn't know I really liked." So the book I read recently that kind of clued it all together, that went, "Oh wow," was The Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping by Sangu Mandanna. It was warm. It felt like a big cozy hug, but it also, I didn't learn information because it's a cozy fantasy. But it felt so warm.

[00:15:20] I love the characters. But it also kind of made you think a little bit about... it had very, very well-done characters on the spectrum in it that I thought were done kindly and lovingly. It addressed all the characters lovingly. It talked about mental health in ways that was not judgmental, that was just matter of fact, like this is just part of life and we deal with it. I love a book that addresses a challenging topic with a light touch, with a light hand.

ANNE: Ooh, we'll see what we can do today.

ANGELA: Okay.

ANNE: You know how this works. I know you've been familiar with the podcast for a long time. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll find out more about your reading life and see what you may enjoy reading next. This is not the first submission you've sent in.

ANGELA: I know.

ANNE: Do you remember what you sent in with your very first submission, which is dated July 19, 2020, at 5:11 PM?

[00:16:19] ANGELA: Did I say Prodigal Summer by Barbara Kingsolver? Was that on there?

ANNE: No, but I know I saw that on a different submission.

ANGELA: That's probably one of my favorite books ever. And I would say it captures that warm feeling, but there's depth to it. What else did I say? Did I say a Deborah Harkness book, I bet?

ANNE: You didn't.

ANGELA: I did not. Oh, what did I say? Did I do a travel memoir?

ANNE: You did say that you would love to talk about travel memoirs by strong women, and you would love to find more.

ANGELA: The Travels of an Independent Woman. Without Reservations.

ANNE: That was your first favorite, Without Reservations: The Travels of an Independent Woman.

ANGELA: What else did I say?

ANNE: The Weight of Ink by Rachel Kadish.

ANGELA: Oh, I do love that.

ANNE: And on your July submission, Winter Solstice by Rosamunde Pilcher.

[00:17:11] ANGELA: I do love that. That has a similar feel to Prodigal Summer for me because they both feel warm. They made you want to like... I'm very much an introvert, and I'm an only child. So those didn't feel overwhelming to me. They felt like a cozy hug of these people coming together. And I love the nature part of Prodigal Summer. But yeah, Winter Solstice, I need to reread that. I just read it once. Every December, I go, "Should I reread Winter Solstice this year?" So I'm thinking about it.

ANNE: I know that 2026 we've caught you at a specific moment in time, but it's really interesting and fun to note the continuity between past Angela. I mean, 2020 wasn't forever ago, unless you're one of the readers from your reading life, it does feel like another era.

[00:18:02] ANGELA: No, it feels different. I think that is the point. Probably maybe 10 years ago... I'd always read, but probably about 8, 9, 10 years ago, I really started reading more as I had more time. And probably 2020 was when I really started thinking more about what works for me, what doesn't work for me, and being a little more introspective about it.

ANNE: All right. Well, that's interesting to hear. At the time, in 2020, you were reading The Last Train to Key West by Chanel Cleeton. And the book you disliked is the one you've already chosen to speak to today, so we'll get to that shortly.

ANGELA: I really disliked that book.

ANNE: Angela, so with that hanging in our ears, what did you bring to the show for 2026? What's the first book you love?

[00:18:53] ANGELA: I Miss You When I Blink by Mary Laura Philpott. It is a memoir in essays, which I often enjoy memoir in essays. I read her books backwards. I know she has two. I first read Bomb Shelter when we read it in book club, and I loved it. And then probably about three years ago, maybe two years ago, I picked up I Miss You When I Blink. It had been sitting on my shelf. I thought, "I need to read that." And within the first 25 pages, I stopped reading and went and ordered a copy and had it shipped to land on my daughter's door in New Jersey because I thought, "Oh, she's going to love this book."

ANNE: What made you think so?

ANGELA: The point when I Miss You When I Blink, it captures that experience of wanting to feel more like yourself, but not quite knowing how to get there. It's insightful but not heavy, not preachy, not didactic, and it's not depressing. But it's funny.

She read it then, and then she reread it about three weeks ago and she goes, "I'm rereading I Miss You When I Blink, and it's just as good the second time." So I pulled my copy off the shelf, and I probably think about 25% of the pages I have either dog-eared or written notes on in this book.

ANNE: What a compliment.

[00:20:21] ANGELA: I love it. I absolutely adore it. It addresses difficult topics, like it's not all fluff, but with a light touch. And the tone is humorous. It makes you think, "Man, Mary Laura Philpott would be so much fun to hang out with, I think."

It has a lot of aha moments when I was reading it. It kind of, you have thoughts in your head, and then you're reading, you go, oh, that puts words to what I've been thinking about. And so a lot of the experiences and what she was talking about, as far as in life and change, and life is change, as your kids grow up, as life experiences change, how you deal with it and change with it. That's why I love that. I need to reread it soon.

ANNE: You just talked yourself into it.

ANGELA: I did. I've been looking at it, and I'm like, "Oh, I need to do that."

ANNE: I think that's a good sign.

ANGELA: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:20] ANNE: Okay, well, thanks for telling us about that one. Angela, what's the second book you brought that you love?

ANGELA: Shadow of Night by Deborah Harkness. And I would say that her series, the Discovery of Witches series, is my favorite series. Shadow of Night is my favorite book in the series. It's the second book in the series. And in this one, the two main characters, Diana and Matthew, we have a witch and a vampire, they go back to Elizabethan London. I enjoy fantasy especially that's set around the edges of the real world. And historical fantasy I tend to enjoy when I read it.

This is my favorite book of the series because of the history component in it. It had me Googling nonstop. They talk about places in London, I'd be on Google Maps like, "Oh, where's that?" It talks about Mary Sidney a lot, who was a real woman and an alchemist then. I enjoy the topic because they are both steeped in academia and worked at Oxford and Yale. So I love kind of the academic part of Shadow of Night.

[00:22:34] It has a romantic element too with Matthew and Diana. And I like the witchy thing. Witchy books tend to work well for me. I think that the part I also love is the setting. I love a very textured, detailed setting where I could feel like I was there. And I keep looking at the series going, "I need to reread that series."

But it feels overwhelming to reread the whole series. So I might maybe start rereading some of them.

ANNE: Yeah, and then just see what happens.

ANGELA: Yeah.

ANNE: Take it from there. Angela, what's the third book you love?

ANGELA: The First Ladies by Marie Benedict and Victoria Christopher Murray. I read a good amount of historical fiction and like it, enjoy it. This historical fiction is about the friendship of Eleanor Roosevelt and Mary McLeod Bethune. I mean, I knew who they were, but I didn't know details about their lives before reading this. And I was fascinated by what I learned about them and the work they did together on racial issues. I had no idea.

[00:23:37] Eleanor Roosevelt actually sat in the Black section of a segregated theater in 1938 Alabama, and Mary McLeod Bethune confronted the KKK when they marched at the college she founded. I love books that have strong female characters. I get a little irritated when you have kind of weak women. So this book I love because you had two strong women characters.

I know in my historical fiction, I'm a little quirky that I prefer more history than fiction. I'll read a book that's just kind of a general historical setting with mainly fiction. But what really puts one over the top for me is if it's very detailed history. I love a good meaty author's note. I get so excited if there's an author's note at the end that's extensive and explains, like tells me, okay, this is the fictional part of this book. Because I always want to know. I'm always googly and trying to figure it out.

[00:24:36] Some people have said they're kind of getting tired of multiple points of view and timelines, but I really enjoy a book that has different points of view and timelines because I love trying to figure out how they're going to come together and intersect and to see the connections between their lives. It has multiple timelines. And it was fascinating, the history in that and how they all brought them all together.

ANNE: Is it the alternating timelines that you were definitely here for? I think I heard that as multiple points of view.

ANGELA: I can do either one.

ANNE: Okay, because I've heard people complain about both, and yet I've read many good books that have either or both elements in common.

ANGELA: Either are fine. Like in Prodigal Summer, they're all on the same timeline, but it's different points of view that you rotate between three stories. And I love trying to figure out how they all came together.

In The First Ladies, you have an Eleanor Roosevelt, though I think that one rotates basically between a chapter from Eleanor Roosevelt's point of view and what's going on with her, and then one from Mary McLeod Bethune. And so it was very interesting. You could see the similarities and the differences between them. So, no, I am fine with multiple points of view or timelines. I'm good with all of it.

[00:25:51] ANNE: Angela, now it's time for you to tell us about a book that was not right for you. Can I quote 2020 you about this book?

ANGELA: Yes, you can.

ANNE: You say, "Being from and living in North Carolina, not liking it is a bit of a sacrilege." That was in July, 2020. What is the book you chose that you do not like in 2026? Or you know, whatever. It didn't work for you.

ANGELA: I still don't like it.

ANNE: All right. And tell us why, but what did you choose then and now?

ANGELA: I chose Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier.

ANNE: Which I haven't read. So please tell us about it.

ANGELA: He is held up as one of the great North Carolina writers. This is probably one of the first books that did help me realize what does not work for me.

ANNE: That's valuable.

ANGELA: It is historical fiction about a soldier's journey home to Cold Mountain, North Carolina, near the end of the Civil War. I picked it up because I love to read books set in places where we have trips planned or we're going to go visit. And I picked it up because we had a trip planned to the North Carolina mountains right near Cold Mountain. I thought, "Oh great. I'll read this book set on Cold Mountain. This'd be great."

[00:27:03] I went back and looked at my Goodreads little blurb that I had written about it and I said that I was traumatized by the violence in it, and it felt like a slog. And I do remember when reading it, I kept putting it down and flipping and reading something else. And I was like, "I just gotta read some other lightweight book and then I'll go back to it." I should have DNF'd it. I truly should have. But at that point, that was not something that I considered doing.

It had no emotional payoff. Like if you work all the way through it, you didn't get anything uplifting or good at the end for me. It's just dark. And I just realized a dark tone does not work for me. And it doesn't end with hope. I need something that ends hopeful. And I did write that I thought it had an unclear or obtuse ending, but I'm not sure if maybe I just didn't get it. Because I know there's a movie about it. And my husband said, "Oh, that movie is so depressing because here's what happens at the end." And I don't remember if the... maybe I just didn't get it when I read the book. But I do like things to wrap up. So I do remember being frustrated with something about the ending. I didn't feel like it was conclusive. It's just dark.

[00:28:21] ANNE: So, what I'm hearing is that you are looking for a book with an emotional payoff that has some element of hope or goodness.

ANGELA: Yes.

ANNE: And this wasn't it?

ANGELA: But not saccharine hope or goodness.

ANNE: Okay.

ANGELA: I can't stand books that are saccharine or cloying, you know, and if it's a tearjerker, you know, Cold Mountain’s one of those too. It's described as a tearjerker, no, thank you. I don't like no big emotions and tearjerker-y things.

ANNE: Okay, heard. Angela, what have you been reading lately?

ANGELA: I'm listening to Family of Spies by Christine Kuehn. It is fascinating. I keep telling my husband, "Oh my gosh, listen to this. This is what happened."

ANNE: I mean, this is the laugh of recognition. As in like, how is this real?

ANGELA: It's amazing.

ANNE: She's an amazing writer, too.

ANGELA: This is going to be the nonfiction I'm going to be pushing on people, truly.

ANNE: I don't have experience with the audiobook. So I appreciate hearing that it's very good in that format for you.

[00:29:23] ANGELA: It's fine. It's working. I do a lot of nonfiction audio just because I work from home.

The end may take me a while to get through an audiobook. So nonfiction tends to work well because it's not like a propulsive plot then that I feel like I'm constantly trying to get to.

Family of Spies is narrative nonfiction. It's a woman who learns that her grandparents were Nazi spies. So that contributed to the planning of Pearl Harbor. I mean, it's fascinating. I read earlier this year in an absolutely adored Awake by Jen Hatmaker. It's a memoir of a woman coming into her own middle age. It has very frank talk in it, but it's not depressing. I mean, it ultimately feels like, hey, we're all working through some stuff, and this is how we're going to do it, and here is how I grew in this experience. I thought it felt empowering, and I loved it. And last night I started Far and Away by Amy Poeppel because it's just light.

[00:30:27] ANNE: What? Okay, that's so funny, because when I was thinking of books that felt light but didn't feel saccharine, because I hadn't applied that word to your reading, but I didn't think that you were looking for anything that felt overly sentimental or maudlin or twee.

I thought, Amy Poeppel is such a good writer for someone who engages real human issues from a realistic standpoint and manages to find the humor in the mundanity, but also just the, like, what in the world? How did we get here? What is happening? How are we...? What's the word I'm looking for? Maybe the humor in the ridiculous reality of the human life and human nature sometimes.

And we've read her in book clubs, so I thought, "I know I haven't talked about Far and Away on the podcast. I'm going to jot that one down as a maybe for Angela." Oh, and you started it last night. How's it working for you so far?

[00:31:20] ANGELA: I like it. So, I picked it up because it has an art component. I realized, I thought, "Oh, this will be fun." And I loved Musical Chairs. I really enjoyed that one. And then I read The Sweet Spot, too. I liked it. I like Musical Chairs more. But Far and Away's fun. It's light. It's enjoyable. I'm just about 50 pages in so far, but it's fun. I'm curious, like, well, how's this all going to pan out?

ANNE: I think Musical Chairs might be my favorite Amy Poeppel. I also really liked Limelight, but I loved reading about Berlin in Far and Away. That was a big draw for me.

ANGELA: Oh, yes.

ANNE: We got a lot of Texas listeners. It's half set in Berlin and half set in Dallas. So, I know that if that catches your ear, there you go. And I'm glad that Amy Poeppel's on your radar.

[00:32:09] Angela, we've talked a little bit about what you're reading for in your reading life right now. You're looking for books that are light, as in you want things to feel light and also be enlightening. You're looking for a good mix of titles for your reading life. You also said something about found family books in your submission. Would you say more about that, if that's still on your near horizon or still what you're scanning for?

ANGELA: I kind of realized it when I absolutely loved A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping. I thought, "Yeah, I really like this found family book." And then I thought about, I loved Winter Solstice and it was found family. And Prodigal Summer that I loved was a kind of found family book. So, you had these different people coming together. And I loved Search by Michelle Huneven, which is also kind of this found family of this church committee. So, I thought, "You know, I like these," but I often feel overwhelmed by books that have large families.

[00:33:08] I'm an only child. Both my parents have very small families. So, I have no experience with the big, bustling family. So, I get kind of overwhelmed, especially when you have books that... when everybody's kind of getting into each other's business. Which one did I felt really overwhelmed with one? It was a Sonali Dev book, I think, like Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors. Had like a red cover. And I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, all these people are into everybody's business." And it felt very overwhelming.

So, I'm kind of curious about like, why do I like these kind of found family books, but the other ones, the big family where everybody's very active in each other's lives, why does that feel too much for me? I'm trying to figure out the difference.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. What do you think? Do you have a working theory?

[00:34:07] ANGELA: I think maybe there's a little gentler at how they interact with people. I guess maybe I'm wondering if, with like the biological family, if they are all just used to kind of invading each other's and telling each other what to do. I don't know. I'm not comfortable with personalities that are very in-your-face and telling you like ‘shoulds’ and ‘oughts’ and pressuring you to do things. So, that's the Enneagram Five for me. I like my boundaries.

I think maybe it's that, that I enjoy seeing the interaction and like, oh, how is that going to work, and how trying to figure it out, but not the kind of over the top that just feels like too much. It feels stressful to me when it's like everybody all together. But Musical Chairs worked. And I don't know why that one worked. And it's similar kind of like that, but not as much as the Sonali Dev book.

[00:35:16] ANNE: That wasn't a particularly large family. It wasn't particularly small either. You didn't have a lot of generations running about. You know what I'm wondering? That thread that you said appealed to you, books with an emotional payoff with some element of hope or redemption or goodness at the end, that thread's available in all kinds of books. It's not confined to found family stories. You could certainly have that in a multi-generational family novel.

But so many found family stories, this is a working theory. Readers, you can tell me I'm way off base in comments and I can think about it some more. But so many found family stories involve lonely people coming together and finding community and bonds that feel resilient and lasting. And I wonder if perhaps those elements appeal to you.

ANGELA: Maybe. I just thought of also, I loved this summer, the Kevin Wilson book, which I can't remember the name of it now, with the PT Cruiser.

[00:36:15] ANNE: Yes. Run for the Hill.

ANGELA: Yes. And it had kind of that found family, but it was also funny. That worked because you did see people come together and feel a sense of belonging in that coming together, I think. Maybe that's the difference. I like books where the people come together and feel like they become more themselves when they come together, as opposed to a group in which you're told like, "No, no, you're doing the wrong thing here," or "this isn't going to work because I know better for you." I think that's the difference, maybe.

ANNE: What I'm hearing is a story where people are punished for stepping out of line feels terrible. But a story where people are welcomed as they are and then feel like they're able to blossom even more, that feels like a soft place to land right now.

[00:37:13] ANGELA: Yeah. I Miss You When I Blink does that so well because she's saying like, "This is going on with me. I'm not a perfect person, but this is where I am." But it's not judgmental or I'm wrong. And Awake by Jen Hatmaker kind does the same thing. It's more like, this is who I am right now. It's welcoming. It's not making you feel bad or guilty if you feel that way.

ANNE: I love finding these common threads. Angela, what are we going to do with them?

ANGELA: I don't know. Okay.

ANNE: Well, let's see if we can find some books for you to read next. So, the books we've talked about so far, you loved I Miss You When I Blink by Mary Laura Philpott, Shadow of Night by Deborah Harkness. This is part of the Discovery of Witches series, which you think may be your favorite series and this is your favorite book. And then The First Ladies by Marie Benedict and Victoria Christopher Murray. Just noting, if you love them as a writing team, they have several out and one more coming soon this summer. Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier, by your fellow North Carolinian, not for you and hasn't been for a long time. And we've said repeatedly, but we'll say it again, that you want an emotional payoff with some element of hope or goodness in your reading. You didn't find it here.

[00:38:30] You love books that are a little witchy. You listen to a fair amount of nonfiction. Ooh, I didn't say about the historical. You really like a lot of history. And that's a driver more so than the fiction of historical fiction. And you love a mix for your reading life. So you're open to lots, but keeping that theme of books that are light and/or enlightening in mind would feel really good. What else do you want me to know?

ANGELA: That's about it. Obviously, I don't like things like abuse and violence. I'd stay away from. And I just stay away from things that feel cloying or too sweet. If it feels like an inspirational quote could go along with it. I don't like things that feel melodramatic or try to jerk you into feeling one way or manipulate your emotions.

ANNE: You know, when you first said that, I immediately started wondering, where is the line? Because a book that feels close... I mean, a book that is close to the line, but not over your line could be perfect.

ANGELA: Right.

[00:39:42] ANNE: But a book that is over the line is going to feel... what's the word you used? It wasn't maudlin. It wasn't sentimental.

ANGELA: Saccharine.

ANNE: Saccharine. Saccharine was the word. Okay. How about let's leap right in with one that I fear might be saccharine with a big warning label on it, and you can tell me, does this feel safe?

ANGELA: Okay.

ANNE: Or do you want to just skip it if I think it might be on the wrong side?

ANGELA: We can try whatever you feel good about.

ANNE: Well, I feel good about letting you make the call. The book I'm thinking of is Eddie Winston Is Looking for Love by Marianne Cronin. And a lot of readers will recognize her name from The One Hundred Years of Lenni and Margot that was her debut that came out a few years ago.

Now, I'm a little fearful that this might be a little too sweet for you. And it will be too sweet for some readers. Absolutely. And others that I've talked to this book about have said, you know, it walks the line, but it stays right where I needed it to be. But the reason I want to surface this for you is it is a found family story of hard things bringing people together in a way that helps them blossom and flourish and become more themselves.

[00:40:48] The main character in this book is Eddie Winston of the title. He's 90 years old. He works at, I mean, I picture a Goodwill, but he works at a charity shop in Birmingham, England, and he sorts through things and interacts with clientele who are bringing their goods to donate through the doors. But Eddie has a real knack, and I get the sense that he would describe it as his calling, to set aside those items that he suspects people may be sorry in a week or a month or longer that they donated.

Such is the case when this 20-something woman named Bella comes through the door and drops off a box of stuff. And she has spiky pink hair. She and Eddie are not the same stage of life or situation or anything, but Eddie's heart really goes out to her. And he goes through this stuff she's dropped off and something about the box, including a clearly beloved pair of, they might be Converse or just something similar, but they've been heavily personalized, he thinks, "I don't know the story here, but this young woman is going to want this stuff back."

[00:41:54] And this happens to Eddie all the time. He's seen it before. And he knows that sometimes in the clearer light of day, people will come back and be like, "I don't suppose you still have that coffee mug, that necklace, that shirt." And it brings him great joy to be able to say, "It's right here on my special shelf." And Eddie thinks no one else spies what he is up to, but they all totally do and know about Eddie's shelf.

But over these things that Bella has dropped off, Eddie and Bella get to know each other. And it turns out that the love of her young life has died, she dropped off all his things at the charity shop in a fit of impulse and one enclosure. And when she comes back for it, she feels so seen by Eddie and the two connect and start hanging out.

And she encourages Eddie and his style. I think he makes some local photograp​her style blog and a leopard print shirt that he grabs from the racks of the charity shop. And he helps talk her through the thing she's going to right now.

[00:42:51] But the title, Eddie Winston Is Looking for Love, Bella finds out that 90-year-old Eddie has never been kissed, and she decides, "I'm going to help this man find love." Now, what we find out over the course of the novel is Eddie found love a long time ago, but the timing for that love was all wrong. And through the course of the book, we learn more about Eddie's story. We learn more about Bella's story. We see the two moving forward.

And then there's also this other point of view that doesn't at first seem to be related, that's inserted periodically through the story. And by the end of the book, all these threads are going to come together in a safe, welcoming way that will feel both exactly like what you expected, but not the version that you thought the book was heading toward, or at least that was my experience.

And I really liked how I knew what was going to happen, but I didn't know what was going to happen the same way I might feel reading like a romance or a mystery novel, where you know your characters are going to end in a certain place with the mystery tied up, or the characters happy for now or happily ever after, but you don't know how you're going to get there. I was pleased by the journey of this book.

[00:44:02] Now, what do you think? Does that sound like delightful found family or maybe not for you in this season?

ANGELA: I'll try it. I think the multiple threads sounds great. The found family sounds great. And I trust you that it's not saccharine. Actually-

ANNE: I said I trusted you. I trusted you to decide.

ANGELA: It sounds interesting. I think I like Bella. I love the shoes that remind me I had a pair of pink high top Converse way back when in high school that I had written stuff all over and I wish I had those shoes still. To this day, I guess they got donated at some point. But yeah, I'll try it.

ANNE: I have some things that I wish I knew where they got up to.

ANGELA: Yeah.

ANNE: Yeah. Including a great pair of shoes. This is also quite good on audio. I know you mentioned you listen to a lot of nonfiction on audio. Look, I'm a Kentucky girl, you are also from the States, I do love a British narrator. It sounds so delightfully foreign to me. This is narrated by three different narrators for three different main characters. It was lovely in that format.

[00:45:11] ANGELA: That sounds good. I listen to fiction on audio, too. But I do love audio. If it has an accent, it’s fabulous.

ANNE: I do love listening to somebody who doesn't sound like me.

ANGELA: Right. And if there are words that I may not be able to pronounce, I'm like-

ANNE: Oh my gosh.

ANGELA: ...that helps a lot. But my pet peeve is a fake Southern accent done poorly.

ANNE: Oh, the worst.

ANGELA: Oh, it's awful. Just don't even try. But British accent, oh, I'm there.

ANNE: Okay. I am pleased to report the next book I have in mind for you is not set in the South and the audiobook accents are not bad. But it's from last year's Summer Reading Guide, so you may know it. I'm thinking of Jessica Anya Blau's follow-up to Mary Jane called Shopgirls. Have you read this?

ANGELA: I have not. I remember hearing about it, but I have not read it.

[00:46:07] ANNE: It's got a little bit of the Kevin Wilson vibes. This is a coming-of-age story about a wide eyed, earnest, learning about the world 19-year-old protagonist whose name is Zippy. And she is the youngest saleswoman on the dress floor at this very real, realistic, you can Google it, 1980 San Francisco department store.

This novel is very playful, like Jessica Anya Blau was having fun here with her young doe-eyed protagonist. She lives with her 25-year-old roommate, Raquel, who works in the legal field. She might be a lawyer. Zippy thinks she is just unbelievably worldly and sophisticated and knowledgeable. Zippy just loves hearing Raquel's advice about kissing and men and their mutual crush on the dreamy model from the Berber coffee ads. And the Berber coffee guy is a running gag through the book that pays off big at the end of the story. The way it comes together is so fun.

[00:47:11] So over the course of the story, Zippy has to take agency over her own life and step into the role of being the adult in charge. Actually, the way she thinks of this is she wants to learn what it means to be a chooser about what happens to her, not just an object that is acted upon. So she's making big decisions in life and relationships and figuring out what it means.

Her home life was untraditional. She was raised by her mom, who's now living with some guy that Zippy likes, but isn't her dad, and she feels kind of neutral on. She visits him sometimes. Their work situation is interesting and leads to some humorous moments. But she's just making things happen.

And the way she builds her own little family and the way she interacts with the kind of snipey family on the sales floor of the 1980s San Francisco department store. Actually, that's almost like a family unit. She has the makeup girl she really depends on and the shoe people who show her how to polish up her Goodwill pumps. This is the second book actually where I've mentioned Goodwill, but they show her how to make her clothing crisp and great, even though Zippy has zero money to spend on the clothes that will make her look like she belongs on the dress floor serving the very wealthy California women.

[00:48:32] It's a little bit of a dysfunctional family, but one that's not, I don't believe, stressful to read about. It's just kind of gossipy and delightful. And then some threads come together in ways we don't expect. And it's big-hearted and upbeat. Zippy is just a really fun character to root for.

But I will say, this novel feels like the best of the 80s, but also the worst of the 80s. The nostalgia is real. But so are things in the book like diet culture and the AIDS crisis. They are very much there. And yet I am hoping, Angela, that I am listening to you faithfully and reading what I'm hearing correctly and thinking that this can be light and enlightening. And also it's not putting its head in the sand, but it is taking a playful tone to the heavy and the light. How does that sound?

[00:49:26] ANGELA: That sounds great. That sounds fabulous. I think I didn't want total fluff, but I love that it has actual, you know, women taking charge of their lives, but also reflects the time period in which it's in with the things that were going on in the 80s. And I remember the 80s very well.

Actually, the funny part, as you're talking about that, my first job out of college where I learned that I didn't like the corporate world, was I worked as a buyer for a large department store chain. I spent many a time working, I had to for a while, work as a manager in a very large store. And I was like, "I do not like this." So I think I will probably be very humored by all the department store tidbits and the working and things that happened there.

ANNE: Oh, I love that for you. That sounds so fun. I mean, that was just pure voyeurism for me. I know nothing. I mean, I've been shopping on a dress floor, but that's the only connection I had to the material. But I love that connection for you.

ANGELA: Yeah, that'd be fun.

[00:50:34] ANNE: Okay, you love a memoir and essays. How do you feel about... or maybe you've read The Comfort of Crows by Margaret Renkl?

ANGELA: I had it on my TBR for a long time. I think I had a copy and then I had to give it back to the library. I've heard good things about it. I actually heard somebody the other day talking about it. So I've been thinking about that one for a while. And I love nature writing and nature things.

ANNE: So readers have been planting the seeds, you've pondered. I'm wondering if this may hit both the light and enlightening because it's got... I mean, nature is not all lighthearted. She's debating some really serious quandaries. Like, do you rescue the baby bird or do you let nature take its course? Like, are people actually more important than the animals that we are making ill sometimes by our actions?

[00:51:34] And she doesn't answer those questions. You use the word 'didactic' in a negative way, which I think is how people mostly use it, but she lets those questions hang. Like she kind of explores them and lets them be and gives you space to think about it for yourself. And yet there's something that's very soothing in reading 52 chapters, one for each week, where she is observing the flora and fauna in her backyard in Nashville, Tennessee.

And she did this through the whole of 2022, not long after the pandemic changed our lives and our relationship with nature. And she's definitely writing from that specific place and also time. But there's something that's also so steadying and grounding and soothing about the way her writing moves us through the season as the birds and also plenty of other animals are coming and going and the flowers bloom and then the blooms fade, the trees leaf out, and then many chapters later they're shedding their leaves.

[00:52:42] But it isn't just a nature observation because it does sound and feel very Annie Dillard in that sense. But she's also mapping onto that the way her personal life changes. I know you're a parent of grown children. She describes in lovely metaphor, but prose too, how her grown children are making their own migration through these seasons and chapters. How does that sound to you?

ANGELA: Oh, that sounds fabulous. Two questions. One, if it has a different chapter for each week, do you recommend reading it throughout a year and doing the chapter that goes with the week where you are or reading it all at one time?

ANNE: I think readers can make arguments for both, which is very unhelpful. You could read this straight through. You could read it in sync with the seasons. If there is nowhere you want to be than somewhere else when it is 97 degrees in North Carolina, which I'm sure will happen at least a few days in July of this year, maybe you don't want to be reading it in sync.

[00:53:45] Maybe you want to be reading the December and January chapters during that time. Maybe it will feel really soothing to you if that's what you want to move through alongside her. I don't think there's a wrong way, but there could be a way that feels wrong or very, very right to you. Do you know what kind of reader you're inclined to be when decisions like these arise with such a book?

ANGELA: I don't know. I enjoy reading seasonally, so I may enjoy doing it a little... you know, that goes along where we are in the year. My other question feeds into that. Is this the book that's supposed to be gorgeous in print, like I want a print copy of this to have?

ANNE: You know, Angela, I said we weren't going to forget about the art piece, that we were going to put that on the hopper, and then I forgot. So I've heard readers say that they really enjoyed this book on audio. They liked listening to Margaret Renkl's own words, but the illustrations have been highly praised. They're by her brother, Billy Renkl, that she's collaborated with on several different works. If you need to make a decision, I have heard your appreciation for art. I don't know. I think that's worth poking around or deciding what sounds good and taking a chance on it.

[00:54:59] ANGELA: Yeah, I think I might order that in print. I think I will call our local bookstore today and have them put in an order for me.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'll be excited to hear what you think. Okay, Angela, how are you feeling?

ANGELA: Good. Good. I'm excited about this.

ANNE: Well, I'm excited you're excited. The books that we talked about are Eddie Winston Is Looking for Love by Marianne Cronin, then we talked about Shopgirls by Jessica Anya Blau, and finally, The Comfort of Crows: A Backyard Year by Margaret Renkl. Angela, of those books, what do you think you may read next?

ANGELA: I think I'm going to order a copy of Comfort of Crows and then maybe try just doing a week at a time for the week. I'm going to try that and see if I like it. And then I definitely am going to pick up Shopgirls. So I'm going to go ahead and get on the library holds list for that one, too.

[00:55:50] ANNE: That sounds lovely. I can't wait to hear what you think. Angela, thank you so much for talking books with me today.

ANGELA: Thank you. It was wonderful.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Angela and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Angela on Instagram. We'll have that link along with the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

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[00:56:47] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

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• The Comfort of Crows: A Backyard Year by Margaret Renkl

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