The Partial Historians

We are thrilled to welcome Assistant Professor Jeremy Swist back to the show to discuss all things emperor Julian! Julian’s rule as Roman emperor was short, but it also created quite a stir because Julian was keen to turn Rome away from Christianity and to bring back the paganism. How did he do it? Why did he do it? And what’s the legacy that he left behind? We consider the details.

Jeremy Swist has a PhD in Classics from the University of Iowa, and his research interests include imperial Greek and Roman historiography and rhetoric, late antiquity, classical reception in heavy metal music. He is currently Assistant Professor of Classical Studies at Michigan State University. Jeremy has published and presented extensively, and he has a particular interest in the intersection of heavy metal music and the classical world – we suggest you check out his blog, Heavy Metal Classicist, or our previous episode with him to find out more. In 2024, he translated and produced a dramatic reading of the Emperor Julian’s Symposium of the Caesars, which starred some of the finest podcasters and actors in the WORLD! (Maybe us)

The Emperor Julian, who ruled Rome between 361 and 363 CE, is one of Jeremy’s great passions, and we are thrilled to talk to him about his new volume on this unusual ruler. The book is published by Oxford University Press and is entitled Julian Augustus: Platonism, Myth, and the Refounding of Rome.

“The Roman emperor Julian employed both words and deeds to return the empire to paganism and reverse Christianization, inspired by his conversion to the Neoplatonic philosophy and radical pagan Hellenism of Iamblichus, and promoted by his own production of Greek literature. These works present a coherent vision of the providentially guided history and destiny of Rome as a series of (re)foundations enacted by rulers such as Romulus, Numa, and Augustus. Julian offers an Iamblichean approach to interpreting Roman legends, Platonic allegories, and myths of his own creation to articulate his own role in the refounding of the empire. Approaching the wider examination of Julian’s imperial self-image on these terms ends up nuancing and challenging common assumptions influenced by the rhetoric of his contemporary proponents. In his reverence for the gods and for philosophy, the emperor’s self-construction embraces the identities of a statesman and solider more than philosopher, Roman more than Greek, and mere human rather than semi-divine being. Julian’s unique positionality as emperor let him invert the conventions of panegyric whereby rulers equal and surpass the demigods and heroes of myth and history. While distancing himself from the ideal models of virtue and founding that inspire him, he adopts a different set of exemplary figures as mirrors of himself. Statesmen such as Pericles and Scipio, and especially Augustus, serve as precedents for Julian’s more realistic conception of his role in refounding the empire, as student and champion of philosophers, guardian of law and tradition, and servant of the gods.”

Julian’s rule was short but it left quite an impact. We chat with Jeremy about some of the ideas Julian put forward about Rome, the foundation stories that underpinned its self-definition, and what might have been if weren’t for an unfortunate spear that wounded Julian and ended his life just two years into his reign.

Our music is by the superb Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

The post The Emperor Julian with Jeremy Swist appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We return to 389 BCE to see just how Rome recovered from the Gallic Sack.

Camillus is dictator in Rome and Ahala is his trusty master of the horse. It’s time for Rome to make things right in their immediate area. There are a bunch of neighbours to deal with, including the Etruscans, the Volscians, and the Aequians.

We’re in a hazy period where our sources appear out of sync with each other. Livy offers the most fulsome narrative that has survived for this period whereas sources like Diodorus Siculus and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are fragmentary or have their focus elsewhere.

By this time, Camillus’ reputation is so cemented in the region that his mere presence at the head of a military is enough to leave their enemies shaken if not stirred. The Volscians are certainly not happy when Camillus and crew turn up on their doorstep. When Camillus turns up at the city of Bolae of the Aequians, will they also fall at his feet?

Linguistic map of Central Italy with the major locations marked for convenience. For the source of this map, see Wikimedia Commons.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Additional sound effects:
– Pixabay
– Sample Focus
– BBC Sound Effects

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

The post Episode 173 – Nobody Beats Camillus appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We were very fortunate to be joined by the delightful Dr Simon Elliot in this special episode about his latest book, The African Emperor: The Life of Septimius Severus.

Dr Elliott (now forever known as Dr E) is a historian, archaeologist and broadcaster. His PhD is in Classics and Archaeology from the University of Kent. Dr E is the author of nineteen books (yes, nineteen!) on the ancient world, including Early Imperial Romans, Pertinax: The Son of a Slave Who Became Roman Emperor, and Roman Britain’s Missing Legion. To find a full list of his many endeavours, check out his website.

Dr Simon Elliott

However, it is Septimius Severus, ruler of the Roman Empire from 193 to 211 CE, who we want to focus on today. You may not be particularly familiar with this emperor, but if you have seen Gladiator 2, you have met his children. Severus was the father of Caracalla and Geta who do not have the best reputation. But there is much more to his story than his disappointing children.

Dr Elliott takes us through the remarkable rise of this man: from Leptis Magna to the imperial purple. In this interview, we tackle the following questions:  

Join us for the fascinating life story of the founder of the last dynasty before the near collapse of the Empire in the third century CE. And don’t forget to grab yourself a copy of the book, currently a Sunday Times bestseller.

An image of the cover of Dr Elliott’s book on the emperor, Septimius Severus.

Please note: at around 39:11, when Dr E is discussing the women in the Severan dynasty, he makes reference to Julia Domna’s sister as Julia Soaemias. A slip of the tongue, as Julia Domna’s sister was Julia Maesa, and her daughters were Julia Soaemias (mother of Elagabalus) and Julia Mamaea (mother of Severus Alexander).

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:32
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:57
Welcome to a special episode of the partial historians, I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:04
and I am Dr G.

Dr Rad 1:07
Dr G, would you believe we have another very special guest joining us today? His name is Dr Simon Elliot, and he is a historian, archeologist and broadcaster. His PhD is in classics and archeology from the University of Kent. Dr Elliot has a whopping 19 books on the ancient world. His latest book is entitled The African emperor, the life of Septimius Severus, a volume that focuses on the life of Guess who and his rule of the Roman Empire from 193 to 211 CE, welcome to the show, Dr Elliot

Dr Simon Elliott 1:46
Guys, guys, so I’m Dr E and thank you very much for having me on. I really, really looking forward to chatting to you. Thank you.

Dr Rad 1:53
Oh no. We are thrilled. This is a part of the empire that we haven’t explored too much. We are well and truly stuck in the early republic. At the moment,

Dr Simon Elliott 2:04
that’s way too complicated. I feel like this is going to get complicated as well. That’s my sense.

Dr Rad 2:13
At least Rome is tiny at this time when we’re talking there is really no empire to speak of, no matter what they tell you otherwise. So let’s dive into it. Septimius Severus may not be a name that everyone is familiar with, yet his imprint is definitely still felt. Can you tell our listeners where they might have encountered the remnants of his rule?

Dr Simon Elliott 2:35
So when you look at Septimius Severus, the first thing to remember is he was, he was the most well, if you look at the Roman Empire at the time of Severus, we’re talking about the late second century and the early third century. So in terms of chronology, this is towards the end of the first half of the Roman Empire, which is the Principate phase of empire. And he’s the founder of the Severan Dynasty, which leads because it’s not a very successful dynasty, as we’ll see. Please ask me what happens to all the other emperors in the Severan dynasty? Because actually quite, quite gruesome, and your listeners will love it. And the failure effect of the dynasty by two through five leads to the Christ of the third century, where the Roman Empire almost implodes, and it’s only another great warrior, Emperor, Diocletian, who drags it kicking and screaming out of the morass of the crisis to reform the Empire as a dominate so basically, the Severan dynasty ushers in the end of the Principate phase of Empire and the founder of the Severan dynasty, Septimius Severus, not only by far the most successful of the Severn emperors, but almost certainly the most powerful of all Roman emperors, simply because he had more legions than any other emperor. And also he expanded the territorial expanse of the Roman Empire to its greatest extent. And also, he’s North African, so this is a man of superlatives. And if he’s the Roman emperor in charge of, and he’s from North Africa, in charge of more legions and conquering more territory than any other Roman Empire emperor. You can make a very good case. Is the most powerful in terms of military and political power African who’s ever lived. Okay, so it’s a big deal, actually. And the thing with Severus is, it’s almost an untold story, because he gets lost in the in the focus on the likes of Hadrian or Trajan or Augustus, or in the Republic Caesar or Constantine, the first Christian emperor. But very much, Severus is an emperor which very few people have heard of, because he almost gets glossed over. And yet he was the biggest deal of all of them.

Dr G 4:42
All right, so you’re setting a great scene here. It’s like this guy overlooked possibly the most powerful guy that we’ve yet to encounter in terms of thinking about Roman emperors. And you’ve mentioned that he’s from North Africa as well. So I’m wondering if you can go a little bit into his background. What about Do we know anything about his early years? For instance?

Dr Simon Elliott 5:05
Yeah, we do actually. I mean, as a Roman emperor, he’s very well sourced, actually. So you’ve got the likes of Cassius Dio that all classical sources are clearly flawed, but cross referencing can actually get sort of a broad picture. So in terms of near contemporary sources, or contemporary sources, Cassius Dio knew him. So you have Cassius Dio, you have Herodian. You have the story or Augusta, which is anonymous, but it’s still a useful history. And between those three and later histories, you can get a good cross cross reference. He’s born in the blazing heat of a North African spring, in 145, ce sort of in late April. He’s born in Leptis Magna, which is one of the great Carthaginian, mercantile founded cities in Tripolitania. Tripolitania is the eastern part of the great, hugely wealthy African province of Africa, pro consularis. So remember, the Roman Empire is a Mediterranean empire. So where I’m sitting today in Britain, where the Boltons were the odd ones, Gaul Britain, where the Northwest European boltons, broadly the Roman Empire is a Mediterranean empire. So North Africa was an absolutely normal part of it, and Africa pro consularis capital, provincial capital, Carthage was probably the richest part of the whole Roman Empire, richer than Achaea, which is Greece, richer than Asia, which is Western Asia, minor. So he’s he’s born there, and he’s born into a senatorial family who are super wealthy. So join the dots. He’s born into a super wealthy family, into a super wealthy town, into a super wealthy province of the Roman Empire. So he’s got it all in front of him, and he’s an aristocrat. He’s a senator, so he’s a patrician, so he can look forward as he grows to a career along what we call the cursus honorum, the career path of a Roman aristocrat. And by the time he’s 10, he’s in Rome having what we would say in the UK is an Oxbridge education equivalent, you know, the finest that money could buy. It’s like going to Harvard in the states with the finest education money could buy. But Intriguingly, he was very loyal to his North African roots, and he never forgot where he came from. So while he was having this cut glass accent education, he deliberately kept a guttural North African accent, and that’s important, because actually, we do know his lineage, right? This is very important to the age in which we live. He’s very often He’s certainly the African emperor, because he’s from North Africa, which is in Africa. He’s often called the Black Emperor because we have a contemporary portrait of him called the Severan Tondo, which shows him in real life with his wife, Julia Domna, his second wife, the love of his life. He’s very, very dark skinned, so he’s often called the Black emperor. We know his lineage, though, on his father’s side, because his great grandfather was called Septimius Macer, and Macer is a Carthaginian name, so his family heritage has more in common with Hannibal than it does with Julius Caesar, which is a line I love saying. And the Carthaginians, as you will know, were settlers from Phoenicia, and that’s the modern Lebanon. So his family originally came from the modern Lebanon, and there were settlers with the Carthaginians in North Africa. And then the lineage comes through to the time of Severus. So this takes us through to Severus, getting his education in Rome and beginning his career on the cursus honorum. So he’s now a young man ready to make his mark in the Roman world.

Dr Rad 8:34
So this sounds very impressive, but nonetheless, even with this incredible background that he has. It’s one thing to be an elite man in the Roman Empire. It’s quite another thing to become emperor. So he actually rise to power.

Dr Simon Elliott 8:47
That’s that’s a really, I mean, it’s a great point. That is because so if you’re if you’re a member of the Roman aristocracy, especially if you’re a senator, so you’re a patrician, the three things you need to good at, be good at in your entire life are fighting, because you’re always going to be fighting the law, because you’re always going to be suing or being sued, and politics, because you’re always going to have to be appearing in public, getting public support. So he’s owned in all these skills, but his first major posting, which makes a difference to his career, is a posting to Syria. So he becomes the legate, the general in charge of a legion. They’re called Legio III Cyrenaica, which is based on the Syrian border. And at this time, in fact, all the way through the Roman Principate. And in fact, the Roman Republic Principate and dominate. The only real symmetrical threats the Romans have got in terms of fighting are in the east, which are the Parthians, later the Sasanid Persians, who are the Persians. So I’ll call them, for the sake of our part, I’ll just call them the Persians to avoid confusion to your listeners. So Severus is based in Syria, on the border in a legionary fortress called zuegma, which is near Antioch, the provincial capital of Syria.

Dr Simon Elliott 10:00
Him, and there his job is to hold the line on the eastern frontier. And it’s a great posting for a young man wanting to make his mark on the cursus honorum, because it means that he’s getting really, really good experience being a military leader, which is so important and very important for this emperor, because, as you will see, within about two minutes, he becomes the Emperor at the point of a sword. He then gets a posting to his next province. But this time, he’s not the general in charge of the Legion. He’s the governor of the province. Very big deal. This is to be the governor of a place called Gallia Lugdunensis. So the clue’s in the name guys. It’s in Gaul. It’s the very rich bit through the middle of Gaul so running from the Alps to the Channel Islands. Its capital is in Lyon, which is a place called Lugdunum, very relevant later in Severus story. And it’s here that he marries his second wife, the love of his life, Julia Domna. And the two of them together are very much the power couple of their age. And they’re their first son, Caracalla is born, and then later, as Severus gets dragged back to Rome to become the Consul, which is the senior magistrate, their second son, Geta, is born, you’ll recognize Caracalla and Geta if you watch that not so good movie, in my opinion, Gladiator Two, because they’re the protagonists in the movie. You should have made a movie about Severus, because Severus is far, far more important, interesting than than anything in that movie. But there you go. So at least some people know what their names were, Caracalla and Geta goes to Rome, becomes a consul 190 very important, and they were almost into him become the emperor in 190 he gets made the governor of another province, which is Pannonia Superior, which is on the Danube, just north of the Alps. It’s a crucial, crucial province, because it controls access from the north of the Danube, where the Germans are, through to northern Italy. So it’s a frontier, barrier province, and it’s just been the scene of the 30 year Marcomannic wars, where the Romans only just won there the that’s the conflict which appears in the movie, the rise of fall of the Roman Empire in the original gladiator movie as an example.

Dr Simon Elliott 12:06
And while he’s there, the Emperor Commodus is assassinated in Rome over New Year’s Eve. 192 193and when he’s assassinated, the first emperor to replace him is the city prefect. This is January now, 193, the city Prefect is called Pertinax, who Severus knows because he’s earlier been his mentor. And when Pertinax becomes the emperor, he wants to be a really worthy emperor. So when the Praetorian guard comes to him at the end of January and say, Can we have some money, he says, No, oh, dear. Where this is going? At the end of February, the Praetorian girl go and see him and see him and say, Can we have some money, or we’ll kill you. He says, No. So the end of February, they kill him. Well, at least he was one. So work goes out around the Roman Empire to three candidates who are now going to play for the throne. One is Severus on the Danube. One is Clodius Albinus, the governor in Britain, in London, and one is Pescennius Niger, who is the governor in Antioch. And they all make a play, but clearly Severus is closer. It probably takes five days to get from the Danube to Rome. It’ll take you 11 or 12 days by the quickest route, usually maritime, to get from London or Antioch. So that’s Britain or Syria to Rome. So Severus arrives with five legions, Parks them in the middle of the forum Romanum, goes into the senate house with his sword drawn, and he says, in fact, actually, I’ll show you a Roman Gladius. This is a Roman Gladius.

Dr Simon Elliott 13:37
So for anybody who can’t see this, that is a Roman Gladius, and the draws his sword, his troops are with him. He says to the senators, I am the Emperor. And the senators, guess what? They say? They say, Absolutely not a problem. You’re the boss. So that that’s how he becomes the Emperor at the point of a sword.

Dr G 13:58
Oh, goodness me. What. What a dramatic turn of events. This guy likes drama, by the sounds of it. This is a obviously, this is taking place over the course of several years, going up the cursus honorum, it takes a while. You’ve got to know the right people, you’ve got to make the right connections and all that kind of thing. And you’ve also mentioned that he deliberately holds on to his Punic accent as well, which I think is great, because this is defining him against a sort of a Romaness that he is encountering everywhere around him. So while he’s working hard within the Roman system, he’s making it very clear that Rome is not just about this part of the Mediterranean. It’s also about other parts of the Mediterranean. And he’s well involved. So once he’s in power, how does he maintain his connection to his North African roots?

Dr Simon Elliott 14:54
Well, firstly, you make some really good points there. He absolutely hates the political climate in Rome, right? So he hates the Senate. When he’s the emperor, he only spends time in Rome four times, and mostly for a matter of months. He can’t wait to get away from Rome. He loves being on campaign. This is a very militaristic emperor. Also, his family are always on campaign with him as well. So Julia Domna gets the cognomen the mother of the camp, and Caracalla and Geta are always with them as well. So I think Caracalla and Geta is younger men, a little bit older. They quite like Rome, as we’ll see. But broadly, the Severans didn’t really like Rome, to the point actually, where, when Severus dies in York in 211 and I’m jumping ahead, but I know we’ll go back, so I don’t I think we’ll be fine. He’s effectively created a reset of the Roman world. I call it the Severan reset, or even a hostile takeover, because 80% of the legates in charge of legions across the Empire and 80% of the governors in charge of provinces are North African.

Dr G 15:59
Oh, wow. Okay, that’s massive.

Dr Simon Elliott 16:01
Many of them are family members, right? So he’s running the place like the mafia. And one of the things that comes through in my book, actually, is the Severans are very, very inward focused on the family and North Africa. And actually, when this is my second book of Severus, the first one is about the end of his life in Scotland, one of the things that came through my research for this book, which I did pick up with the first one, is they were really avaricious as well. So for example, we’ll talk about it in a minute. I think how he maintains himself as emperor and where he campaigns. He kills 200 senators of the 600 over a period of two years without trial, just executes them, often sent to the beasts in the arena. And usually when this happens, it’s not that unusual. Actually, when this happens, the wealth from their landed wealth which is immense, or their portable wealth which is immense, will go into the Imperial Fiscus treasury, not the Severans but half of it went into the Severan back pocket. And what’s more, they didn’t care who knew.

Dr Simon Elliott 17:05
So he’s got to he’s got to power at the point of a sword. It’s not totally unusual in the Roman world, certainly later, particularly the crisis of the third century. But these guys don’t care who knows. You know, they just want to reason. And you know, if you know, if you go to the forum Romanum, the next time you’re in Rome, the largest arch you will not be surprised to know is the arch of Septimius Severus. You won’t be surprised to know it’s actually at the very top of the Forum Romanum, beneath the Capitolini Museum, which is where the temple of Jupiter Maximus was. So it’s beneath the most important temple in the Roman world. And also the foundations are built on the foundations of the curious Senate House. So that’s a very direct message saying, if you don’t behave, you know who the boss is, to the sound of a sword slowly being scratchingly being drawn. So this is that’s, that’s if you want to get into service as headspace, that’s where you need that’s where you need to go. I’ve got no idea why I like him. Actually, I’m often, that’s what I’m giving talk. And I’m a military historian. Principally, I’ve asked him, that’s why I’m giving talks. Why do you like him? I actually can’t answer the question because, because, actually, the more you talk about him, more you realize actually, although he’s one of these the toughest of tough guy emperors, he was very brutal about sort of, sort of doing it.

Dr G 18:21
You know, look, I’ll let you in on a secret. I have a similar problem with Augustus

Dr Rad 18:25
I was gonna say. I’m glad you can admit it. DR, G,

Dr G 18:30
Yes, this is my admission. It is recorded. It is out there for the world. Now, yes, Augustus, it’s a problem, but I do like him

Dr Simon Elliott 18:37
Both of them great survivors, both of them in complete control of their own life and destiny. Both of them, crucially for a Roman Empire, died in their own beds.

Dr Simon Elliott 18:48
Now, you could make a case. Could make a case in actual fact, I’ll let you into I’ll let you into a secret. My next book coming out in July, which we should talk about, because I hope you’ll like it. It’s called Women of Power in the Roman world.

Dr Rad 19:00
Oh, that is right up our alley.

Dr Simon Elliott 19:02
There is a chapter on Livia Drusilla. And then I’m writing a book for next year called death on the Palatine cold cases of the Roman emperors, where I look into, how about 12 Roman emperors die, and we don’t really know why, or it might be a bit dodgy, so I just look into the cold cases as a detective. One of them is Augustus, whether Livy you drew still have poisoned him or not. I’m not going to tell you what I come I’m not going to tell you tell the outcome. I’ll tell you next year, if you do a pod about that book. But crucially, with Severus as well, there is a theory that Caracalla may have killed Severus as well. So there’s always a question mark over both these great, great emperors. You know, if you want to get and you’ll love this with Augustus, if you really want to get in the headspace of Severus, no Roman Emperor managed to conquer the Persians and then the Britons in the Far North. You have a poem by Horace at the end of the first century BC, beginning.

Dr Simon Elliott 19:59
The first century CE where Horace says, Augustus will not be a God unless he conquers the pesky Persians and Brits. And Augustus does neither. He’s far too clever to get dragged into that. He’s far too canny. Severus isn’t though he’s a bit of a nutter. So Severus does conquer the Persians, and at the end of his life, tries to conquer the far north of Britain. I think at the point he died in York in February 211 I think he had actually, I think he believed he had. And I think he died thinking he was the greatest Roman emperor of them all, because he’d done something which even Augustus had not done.

Dr G 20:39
Food for Thought.

Dr Rad 20:40
Could this be a new candidate for your heart.

Dr Simon Elliott 20:43
Anyway, back to your script. Sorry to throw loads. Sorry.

Dr Rad 20:46
We love a tangent. Don’t you worry, particularly when it’s about Augustus. Dr, G, can’t talk enough about him. So let’s maybe take a step back for a moment and put Severus into a bigger perspective, which I think you were starting to do there. You’ve said that he was the most powerful person ever born in Africa based purely on military and political agency. Now I think you’ve given us a hint about why you think that. But this is ever this is in World History. So Can you unpack that a little bit for us,

Dr Simon Elliott 21:16
he’s the emperor of the Roman Empire, which, in their known world, was it right? They knew something was happening in China, though almost certainly completely, uh, ignorant of anything happening in South America. There may have been in there, may have been aware of things happening in the rest of Africa or elsewhere in the world. But as far as they were concerned, they were the most important empire, political entity anywhere ever, as far as they were concerned. And North Africa is a full fat functioning part of the Roman Empire. Roman North Africa is like a layer cake. Chronologically. You start off with the indigenous Berbers, so the Garamantes in southern Libya, the Numidians in Algeria and Tunisia. And then the Morocco, the Maureen in modern Morocco, then you have the Carthaginians, then you have the Romans, then you have the Vandals, then you have the Byzantines. And finally, the Arab conquest. The only phase we look at today is through the eyes of the Arab conquest, because North Africa is part of the Arab world. But until the Arab conquest, it was an absolutely normal part of the medicine the wider Mediterranean world. And if you look at political agency, I can’t think of anybody until the modern world, who’d have any more political agency than a Roman Emperor. And in that context, if you came from Africa, I can’t think of anybody else who was born in Africa who had that level of political agency.

Dr Rad 22:41
It’s a convincing case. I must say,

Dr G 22:43
He leaves quite a legacy. I’d like to sort of rewind a little bit, because I think you in really broad brush strokes, have talked about like the consequence of this year of the five emperors, but this seems like a pretty crucial moment we’ve seen. I would imagine listeners might be quite familiar with the year of the four emperors, for instance, which is considered a real chaotic time at the end of the Julio Claudian period. And yet, the year of the five emperors sounds worse on paper, but I’m thinking that it’s probably got the same level of chaos and confusion like who’s going to come out on top? What’s going on there? How does this chaotic political moment really help elevate Severus to the top job?

Dr Simon Elliott 23:30
It’s a great question. So you’ve got the big difference of the two four emperors, of five emperors, 68-69, through to 193, broadly, the year of the four emperors has played out in the Imperial center, whereas the year of the five emperors has played out across the entirety of the Roman Empire. So firstly, Severus at the point his emperor has got two potential usurpers either side of him to the east and west, with Albinus in London, who’s declared and Niger in Antioch, who’s declared. So Severus is very canny. He buys Albinus off by making him his Caesar, Junior emperor. Remember, in the Roman world, you’ll appreciate this. In the Roman world, the most famous Roman of them all in the Roman Empire was Augustus, and then Caesar and the Republic, but, but it was always Augustus. It’s flipped. In our world, everyone knows Caesar less. People know Augustus, but, but in the Roman world, it’s always Augustus. So the senior Emperor is the Augustus. This is Severus, the junior emperor. His Caesar is now Albinus in Britain. So Albinus has bought off Severus then goes and campaigns in the east in one line four, defeats Niger, kills him, appropriates all his wealth, puts half of it in his back pocket, and then he knows that to get martial glory in the Roman world, you don’t get that you won’t have a triumph through civil war. So he needs to have a foreign war. So he invades Parthia of the Persians, and he’s just at the point of crossing the border when word reaches him at the in 195, early 196, that Albinus has seen through Severus Ruse and he’s usurped again. So Severus has to hot foot it all the way back along the riot Danube and Rhine to find Albinus has crossed over with Britain, with all three British legions joined by a Spanish Legion. And then he’s hold himself up the place where Severus was the governor and married Julia Domna, and where Caracalla was born, which is Lugdunum Lyon in Gallia Lugdunensis. And he knows Severus can’t ignore that, because that’s a that’s a deliberate slight. So Severus has to fight him, and they fight this incredible, two day titanic battle, which probably was the largest Civil War battle in the entirety of the Roman history. And dealing with the Roman Republic, you’re dealing with the likes of Philippi and Pharsalus, well, this is a bigger battle than both of those probably put together. Dio says involved 150,000 men either side. That’s got to be an exaggeration, because the entire Roman military establishment was about 300,000 establishment was about 300,000 men. But there’s a lot of people involved. Two days, Severus gets knocked off his horse twice. Later in life, he’s associated with having a leg injury, which is interpreted today as being gout. I often wonder whether actually, one of those two events being knocked off his horse in battle, he may have had a leg injury which didn’t heal well, which might cause his later in later troubles, but he does win. Captures Albinus, chops his head off, sticks it on a pole, sends it to Rome, prances over his beheaded body on his charger to ceremony show who the boss is then. And this is a kicker. I love this, being being British, and having spent a lot of time in Kent and London, having spent 25 years working in London, in the City of London, so Severus to bring recalcitrant Britain back into the Imperial fold, sends his military inspectors to Britain, and they have to start rebuilding the British legions, which have been butchered already because of the Battle of Lugdunum. But then to show the people in the provincial capital London, who is the boss, they build the land wall of Roman London. So it’s built by Severus to show if I can do this, you imagine what I can do if you misbehave again. There’s no external threat. There’s no river wall built on the Thames. So it’s not a defensive circuit. It’s a statement. And this is this wall, which becomes the medieval wall of London, which to this day still delineates the square mile in London. So this financial powerhouse of the world is delineated to this day by a boundary set in place by a dark skinned Roman Emperor from North Africa. Absolutely, absolutely love that fact. And so from that point, he’s the sole emperor. And then he goes back to the east, where he does is the first Roman Emperor since Trajan, and only the second Roman Emperor. And there’s only three who do it. Charis later does it, only the second Roman emperor who conquers the Persians and he captures Ctesiphon their capital. Then he does this triumphal parade through North Africa, starting in Egypt, which is where the portrait was painted, which is like a fayum portrait. And then he goes through all the North African places that he knew and loved and everywhere he goes, they monumentalized His presence by building a Severan phase. The Severan this that everywhere, even in Rome, by the way, which he hated, a third of what you see today classical Rome is Severan. And I delight in showing people these things because of like the Temple of Vesta in the forum Roman a very, very famous temple of Vesta built by Julia Domna. That one is the iteration built by Julia Domna. And then he finds himself back in Rome, and it’s around 207, and he’s really bored. So it does take quite a good deal of time for him to sort of wrap it all up in a way. So even though he’s Emperor on paper 193 there’s still that sort of tail end of the civil conflict to get through to really secure it for him, I think it’s the same for any, any emperor who came to power at the point of a sword. Actually, you’re always going to be looking over your own shoulder. Because if you I mean, you could say it was a usurper. It was the first, it was the first to market, shall we say, in Rome, to seize the throne. But you could argue, as a usurper, any Roman usurper is going to be looking over the shoulder for the shoulder for the rest of their life. That’s why Severus, by the way, famously, on his deathbed in York in 211 tells Caracalla and Geta, look after each other. Will return to that look after each other and look after the military completely ignore the rest. Wasn’t in charge of anybody apart from the military. He always his first Roman emperor that allowed a Roman legionary within his 25 years term of service to legally marry as an example, and he increased the salary of a Roman legionary by a third. So he’s always been faithful to the military, because he knew that they were the ones who got into power, and they were the ones who would keep him in power.

Dr Rad 29:56
Well, this seems like an opportune time to talk about one of his. Is more important military campaigns. Let’s talk about what he gets up to in Britain.

Dr Simon Elliott 30:05
So it’s 207-208 and he gets a message from the governor in Britain, who’s a chap called Senecio, which says, there’s trouble in the north, which there may have been because, remember, the legions are undermanned and being rebuilt. There’s trouble in the north. And then he says, very interesting line, the entire island. So the whole island is in danger of being overrun. We need either your help or reinforcement. And this is when you get the Severan surge, because Severus decides at the end of his life to come over in person. And he actually arrives in York in 208 with the imperial family and with half the Senate, with the Fiscus, Treasury, the Praetorian Guard. And they turned York, actually, in the north of Britain, into the imperial capital, the proper capital for the last three years of his life. And then he spends 209 and 210 campaigning in what we call today Scotland. Leave with Caracalla, leaving Geta and Julia Domna in York to actually administer the Empire, and you have these two really brutal campaigns. You know, when in Britain, when we talk about our weather, we we laughably call it changeable, but the Romans didn’t mince their words. They just said it was miserable and wet, which is very accurate. The Roman contemporary authors say at this time, the weather in Britain was worse than usual. So it must have been really, really bad. And also in the campaigns in the far north the natives, because the Roman that, I mean, the Romans were leading 50,000 men. Remember, that’s the largest campaigning force ever to fight on British soil. They blocked the coast off with a clash of Britannica fleet. They cut the the natives off from the highlands by blocking off all the Glens. And so they trapped all the natives in the Far North. There were broadly two confederations called the Maeatae and the Caledonians, and they just trapped them. And then once they were trapped, they just went straight through five flight, through a soft underbelly, and butchered them. And the natives didn’t get a chance to coalesce into a fighting force for a battle to take place. So the whole thing is this hideous guerrilla war in terrible weather conditions. And even Dio says that although the Romans won through weight of numbers, they suffered a lot of casualties. But eventually the Romans win Severus and Caracalla go back down to York, and they leave the troops in the north. Now, when the Romans have been up there before, the troops have come back down, but the natives notice the Romans aren’t leaving, so they realize the Romans are trying to stay. So they rebel again. And so Severus actually not Severus, because he’s now too ill. In 210 Caracalla repeats the whole campaign again, but Severus is recorded by Dio as saying that Severus ordered them to commit a genocide. So the line that DIO uses is kill everybody, including their babies in their mother’s wombs. And the archeological record does show there’s a massive depopulation event in the far north of Britain, which is evidence, all the way through to the end of the third century. So it looks as though the Romans did attempt to genocide, actually, in that campaign, which is not unusual for the Romans, dealing with the rebellion, but it’s a particularly brutal one, given you have this proper depopulation event, victory is declared. Severus and Caracalla. Take the cognoma Britannicus. Coins are minted in Rome. Hurrah Severus dies in February 211 right? Probably of some kind of pulmonary illness in in sort of the 65 the miserable kind of a fog or the British winter is in York. And Caracalla and Geta hate each other. They hate each other, and they hate York and Britain, so they can’t wait to get back to the flesh pots of Rome. So separately, with their own entourages, they race themselves back to Rome, and with them gone, there’s no political imperative to keep the troops in the far north of Britain. So everything drops back down to the line of Hadrian’s Wall, which it stays up for the rest of the Roman occupation. Interestingly, there is a major repair of Hadrian’s Wall at this time leaving Severin inscriptions. And when Hadrian’s Wall was first when the inscriptions were first deciphered in the 17th and 18th centuries, the wall was called Severan the Severn wall, because the first ones deciphered were Severan. It’s only in the 19th century you get the Hadrianic ones, and Caracalla and Geta get back to Rome, and then within a year, probably by Christmas, our Christmas Roman Saturnalia, Caracalla killed Geta, either killed him or had him killed, and Geta allegedly then dies bleeding to death in Julia Domna’s arms in the Imperial Palace on the Palatine Hill. And then you have this cascade of seven emperors. You have Caracalla, the survivor. He’s assassinated four years later, for six years later, 217 while he’s relieving himself against the tree. Be visiting a temple in the east, and he’s stabbed in the back. That’s a hell of a way to go. Very briefly, the Praetorian Prefect Macrinus then becomes the Emperor. He’s also assassinated with his son. Then the Severans are back with Elagabalus and his mum. Elagabalus is assassinated with his mum, and then finally, you have Alexander Severus with his mum, who was assassinated with his mum. So it’s not a good job being an emperor’s mum in the Severan dynasty, either. So that is it. So the dynasty peaks massively with Severus, and then suddenly you have this failure of a dynasty which finishes in 235, which causes, I think, the cascade into the crisis of the third century, which could have brought the Roman Empire down. Actually, to my point at the beginning of our chat, it takes another great warrior, Emperor, Diocletian, to rescue things. Otherwise, you know, our world would have been completely different.

Dr Rad 35:56
Yeah, God, if those two brothers had just got along, things could have been very I was gonna say,

Dr G 36:01
I feel like a counterfactual history moment is required for something like this. Like imagine if those two brothers, Caracalla and Geta, could have found a way to have followed their father’s advice, because it seems like everything takes a really bad turn, and I hate to bring up gladiator two back into this conversation, but that movie would have just been way more interesting if it had focused on the history, which is incredible,

Speaker 1 36:27
I tell you.

Dr Simon Elliott 36:27
I tell you. I tell you. Like, as you know, with you all over the Roman world, it’s more Game of Thrones and Game of Thrones. It’s more Tolkien than Tolkien. You know, it’s all there. Of course, Tolkien himself was obsessed by the Roman world and the Dark Ages, etc, which informs a lot of his writing. But for us, it’s all there, and if it’s done well on screen, it’s great TV or great movie. I mean, gladiators not close to history, but it’s good movie. Yeah, the HBO BBC series Rome was fabulous. The first series of that was fabulous. You know, a very good recreation of that particular world, so you don’t need to muck about with it that much to actually make fantastic narrative.

Dr Rad 37:07
No, it is one of the big mysteries as to why they decided, I know, let’s go against what’s known about this time period and create a far less interesting story.

Unknown Speaker 37:16
They should

Dr Simon Elliott 37:17
should have spoken to us shouldn’t they?

Dr Rad 37:20
If only we put the call out to Ridley Scott many times, still no reply.

Dr G 37:25
So I think in terms of the brothers, you’ve painted a pretty strong picture of what’s going on with those two in the wake of Severus death, I’m wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about the love of his life, Julia Domna, and how she comes into it, because later, mothers seem to not fare so well. What about her?

Dr Simon Elliott 37:47
I think Julia Domna is is literally half the story, actually, because they were a real power couple. First thing to know is that she’s a lot taller than he was. So if you go to the Forum Boarium meat market in Rome, which is at the bottom of the Palatine Hill, where it meets the Circus Maximus. So it’s quite easy to find. There’s two or three arches there, and it’s on the Tiber and there, there’s an arch, the arch of the argentari, where you who the money lenders, where you have a sculptured Julia Domna and Severus, who would have seen it, they’d have seen the sculpture. Severus is about foot shorter. Now bear in mind that the sculptor with this most militaristic of emperors would definitely wanted to have made him as big as he physically could without actually ending up in the arena or doing something silly. So you can guarantee Severus was probably a lot shorter than Julia Domna, for a start, and I think it was probably like a middleweight Olympic weightlifter all square and muscle. Julia Domna Is is portrayed as being very tall, and bear in mind where she came from. She came from a Emesa which is modern Aleppo. And her father was the chief priest of the sun god Elagabalus. That family had previously been the royal family of a Emesa before it became part of the Roman world. So there were some of the richest people in the Roman Empire. So very much a very, very good catch for Severus marrying into that family.

Dr Rad 39:10
How convenient that they fell in love.

Dr Simon Elliott 39:11
But I think, I think it was a love match. I really think it was a love match. Very unusually in contemporary sources, as you know, all Roman contemporary sources are all late middle aged men, or old men writing who are rich writing for other late middle aged men who are also rich in a very gender unbalanced society. Okay, so doing my research, for example, for Women of Power of the Roman World, you’re immediately faced with that that you have to hack through before you get to the true story of the women involved. But even then Severus Julia Domna is really well written up. Actually, she became a key patron of the arts in Roman across the Roman Empire, much more so than than Severus. And you know, the family were close. This is really unusual. What happened to Caracalla and Geta. They were very close for most of their life. They followed Severus and Julia Domna, the kids around the Roman world. When it was on campaign, they went to everywhere in the Roman world, and Julia Domna would have been very much a steady influence there. And I can only think that as the boys got older into their early teenage years, they end up with their own coteries around them who then can see a path for their own benefit by championing one of the siblings against the other sibling, which is probably what sparred out of control. Julia Domna’s end, though, is really sad. I mean, when Caracalla was assassinated, she’d had enough. She was in a Emesa, and she just turned a face to the wall and died because she just had enough, and she was heartbroken. In the Women of Power of the Roman World book, there is a chapter called The Severan Julias. Julia Domna wasn’t the only one of the Severan Julias. Her elder sister, Julius Soaemias, was like The Godfather. So Julius Soaemias was more powerful than Julia Domna, especially after Severus died, and she pulled the strings of the early Severan dynasty. And then it’s her two daughters who are the mothers of Elagabalus and Alexander Severus who died. Chances are Julia Soaemias, the elder sister of Julia Domna, was the one who ordered the assassination of Elagabalus and her own daughter, his mum, because they weren’t up to scratch, and then put her younger daughter and his her son, Alexander Severus, in power. And that lasted about decades. So that actually almost worked, but ultimately didn’t. So this is a really interesting story about the Severan Julias. There’s definitely, definitely a second pod here for us to talk about, about, about these amazing women who, because it’s very difficult to find women who held true political agency in their own right in the Roman world, because the sourcing issues and because it was a very gender unbalanced and unbiased, a very, very biased society. You can make a case that Livia Drusilla may have done. I do anyway, you can make a case certainly that Zenobia, who was a Palmyrene Queen, did you can make a very good case that Galla Placidia, who was the daughter of Theodosius, the first, the sister of Honorius and Arcadius, and the mother of Valentinian the second, she was a regent 16 years so being a regent meant you have proper political power. So she probably did have political agency. And then it comes to the Severan Julias, Julia, Domna, probably had a degree of agency, but she would always be in the shadow of this militaristic emperor, Severus Julia, Soaemias and her daughters, I think they are real political agency. So there’s a real story there. The Severans and Julias.

Dr Rad 42:40
I know I was thinking of a, you know, multi series television show that could follow the women. Be great. It’d be absolutely great. Are you listening Netflix? They’re crying out for content. Yeah, I Julia, that’s what I’m pitching.

Dr Rad 42:56
So let’s return, if we may, to Severus end, because you’ve hinted at some possible controversy around that and his legacy. I mean, obviously you could say that this dynasty is part of his legacy, but I think there’s probably a bit more to it than that as well.

Dr Simon Elliott 43:10
So in terms of his end, well, the controversy, there’s a reference in the primary sources that as the first peace treaty is being signed after the 209 campaign in the far north of Britain, Caracalla, who’s behind him on a horse, draws his sword, and it’s the Praetorian Prefect that stops him stabbing Severus in the back. Only one source may be true, maybe apocryphal. Will never know, but that that is there. I think he did die a natural death. I think he died a natural death because we know that he took his funerary urn, which was Porphyry, to York from Rome. So you’re not going to do that unless you think you’re on your last legs, are you? So he did take his funerary urn with him, and later, when he’s buried in Rome, like many Roman emperors, he’s buried in the mausoleum of Hadrian today’s Castel Sant’Angelo. So I think he knew it was the end of his life anyway. But I think, I think as he died, I think he thought he succeeded, and I thought he said in, I think he thought he said in trying a good succession as well, clearly didn’t read his sons particularly well later in life, because you have this cascade of events then which you have this dysfunctional dynasty. In terms of his legacy in Britain, you can argue there was one success for the Romans from a Roman perspective, in that you do have peace on the northern border for almost a century afterwards, which is the longest period of peace on the northern border in Britain until the modern era, by the way. But it was at a great cost, because certainly, almost certainly, was a genocide in that second 210 campaign. Did he conquer the Far North? Well, no, he didn’t. Did he because he dies, Caracalla and Geta can’t wait to clear off so the political agency is gone. So the all that effort, all those casualties, all the economic dysfunction, all that genocides complete waste of time, because the Romans then just go back down to the line of age as well, and actually do find.

Dr Simon Elliott 44:59
Find this in the far north of Britain only two times can you say the Romans actually or conquered it in the far north, the first times by Agricola on behalf of the Flavian emperors. And that probably was a proper conquest for at least six months. And then you have with the severance and the Severus dying, that fails so without the political imperative which drove Agricola because the mission called him back without the political imperative, with the severance the northern border always drops down. Probably it’s quite expensive to maintain troops that far north, so far from the Imperial center. So in actual fact, although, although you could say he was the most powerful African who ever lived. He was probably the most powerful military Roman Emperor terms of his legacy. At the point he died, he thought he’d done it, but he hadn’t.

Dr Rad 45:47
That sibling rivalry really screwed things up for everybody in so many ways. Not a crazy man. What a crazy guy. Heated Rivalry season two, Caracalla and Geta

Dr Simon Elliott 46:00
That’s a good idea.

Dr G 46:03
There’s so much potential in this material to wrap things up, I’m going to leave with a an easy question, a super easy question. It’s about the source material. Challenges with the source material, and challenges for the historian, looking at the types of source material that we have for Severus life.

Dr Simon Elliott 46:24
Oh, well, as we know, it’s always a challenge, because you’re dealing with it’s what we’ve got. I am an archeologist, though, so I am always keen to triangulate anything I get from a contemporary source than anything in the archeological record, which actually, with the Severan book was pretty easy, because there’s a very good archeological record of those campaigns in the far north, especially the marching camps where the Romans In fact, one of the fascinating facts about the Severan campaigns in the far north is because he was leading 50,000 men through the Scottish Borders, the largest marching camps in the whole Roman world are there actually from that campaign. But in terms of the written sources, they’re what we’ve got, so you just deal with what you’ve got, and you always take them with a pinch of salt. You always try and triangulate. I still love going back to them, though, because it’s what there’s. There’s a line. I’ll give you my favorite line from DIO and it’s not about service. It’s about Commodus, who is my least favorite emperor, because I think Joaquin Phoenix, when he portrays him in Gladiator, nails it. Absolutely nails it. I think he was exactly like that. There’s a scene in Dio where Commodus is is showing up, pretending to be Hercules in the in the Colosseum. And of course, all the senators are in the front seats, and they’re all having to applaud, yeah, it’s brilliant. Wonderful emperor. The guy’s mental. Wonderful emperor. Great, great. He’s mad. Wonderful. Well, great and Commodus. Big trick was to fire crescent shaped arrows to chop the heads off ostriches. On one occasion, apparently did 200 in one go. Dio describes Commodus picking up an ostrich head from the ground, going up to a Dio and the senators are sitting dear as a senator, and then wags the head up and down in front of them, and says, You better laugh, boys, because if you don’t, this is what’s going to happen to you, and they all have to start laughing.

Dr Simon Elliott 48:15
So even if that’s not true, I love it. I love it. I love having to go back to the primary sources, reinterpret them time and time again. The moment I’m dealing with Ammianus Marcellinus writing a book about Galla Placidia and again, just any going back to any source is an absolute joy for me. I think there is a real thrill as well. When you know that the writer that you’re reading is a contemporary of the people that they’re talking about, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to be any more useful, necessarily, but you feel that there’s a sense of an aliveness between the writer and their subject matter. And to have Dio there talking about these people that he’s living under the regimes of, I think is absolutely fascinating. Do you think? Do you think Dio so I’m going to Procopius now. Do you think Dio might have also written his own secrets. I would love that.

Dr G 49:05
How much worse could it get? Oh, my God.

Dr Simon Elliott 49:09
Tune in. Everybody. Just go through it. Just just get just go through the list of the I just love doing this when I’m giving talks in public. Severus died in his own bed. Caracalla, assassinated Geeta, assassinated Macrinus, assassinated Elagabalus assassinated with his mum. Alexander Severus assassinated with his mum, who wants to be a Roman Emperor. It’s a dangerous, dangerous job, really, is stick. Stick with being historians not killing Sure. Well. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m sure our listeners will be dying to get their hands on on a copy of this book. Would you like to tell them where to follow you, where to find you as well. You

Dr Simon Elliott 49:48
can find me across all social media platforms, at Simon Elliott, 20 my email address, and I’m very happy for your your followers to get in touch. Simon dot, Elliot at Sentinel communications, or one word or.Dot co.uk, and the African Emperor is a Sunday Times bestseller, by the way. So who knew there was so much interest in a Roman Emperor with with from North Africa? But now you know why? Because it is amazing story, and that’s published through icon books. But also, crucially, Belinda audio, based in Australia.

Dr Rad 50:20
Love the connection.

Dr Simon Elliott 50:22
So thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you.

Dr G 50:25
It’s been an absolute pleasure. I’ll show a couple.

Dr Simon Elliott 50:28
There you go. That’s Beinda audio in Australia. Lovely. And it sounds like we will have more to talk about in forthcoming episodes. I would love to talk to you guys again. Fabulous. Talking to you. Thank you so much for having me on Thank you.

Dr Rad 50:52
Thank you for listening to this special episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive, to find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. If monthly patronage is not your style, we have merch. We have a book, or you can just buy us a coffee on ko fi. And we’d like to say a big thank you to all our Patreon supporters for making special episodes like this. One possible. However, if your Imperial coffers do not overfloweth, one of the easiest and most important ways to help us is to tell someone about the show or give us a five star review wherever you listen. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Septimius Severus with Dr Simon Elliott appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The 390s were an action-packed decade. Join us for a partial recap of what the ancients sources told us was really going on in Ancient Rome.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 390s BCE!

Dr G – I’m Dr G 

Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad

Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 390s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 399 to 390 in an epitome of our normal episodes. 

Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.  

Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino. 

399 BCE

398 BCE

397 BCE 

396 BCE

395 BCE

394 BCE

393 BCE

392 BCE

391 BCE

390 BCE

Dr Rad: And that was the 390s in Ancient Rome… or was it? 

Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 155: A Feast for the Gods  to join us for a deep dive into the 390s BCE. 

Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!

The post The Partial Recap – 390s BCE appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

As we emerge, bleary-eyed and slightly peckish from the Gallic Sack of Rome, we find ourselves in a new era – a new Republic, one might say! It is 389 BCE and Rome is in its rebuilding era.

Livy would like us to see 389 BCE as a turning point. He has more sources, better sources than ever before, just you wait! Historians are less confident than he is about how reliable his material is, but there is no doubt that this century is going to see Rome enter a new phase in its history. In spite of the many battles we covered so far on the pod, it is really in this century that Rome’s territorial control will start to expand in a meaningful way. This journey will lead to other exciting political, social and military developments along the way, and we might find Rome starting to look more recognisable by the end of the 300s BCE.

It depends on whether you believe Diodorus or Livy as to what unfolded in 389 BCE. The dating is still shaky, in spite of Livy’s grand promises. However, we certainly get a sense that Rome suffered a crushing blow at around this time, and their neighbours, including their allies, tried to take advantage of that. It would the logical move. Thank God Camillus is still around to make sure that Rome hangs in there!

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:57
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G

Dr Rad 1:04
And I am Dr Rad, and we are

Dr G 1:06
Currently in the very, very edges of time, the end the liminal space of 390 BCE

Dr Rad 1:16
Yes. Dr G, boy, has this been an epic year! Gauls marauding around Rome itself, the Romans almost starving to death. Camillus. Was he there? Was he not? Lots of debate there in our last episode on the Gallic sack of Rome, and we’ve been barreling our way through 390 BCE, my account was basically just a gigantic speech from Camillus where he was trying very, very hard to convince the Romans that they did not want to just pick up sticks and move to ve because it was just, quite frankly, easier than trying to rebuild The damage to Rome the Gauls had allegedly been responsible for, and at the end of all of that, he managed to convince them, and the Romans did indeed start rebuilding, which apparently all happened in a year. And that’s why Rome is the way that it is today, a higgledy, piggledy, confusing layout.

Dr G 2:20
Yes. I mean, there’s reasons to poke holes in most of those stories.

Dr Rad 2:25
Poke holes? We do that at the partial historians?

Dr G 2:32
Not usually, but I’m gonna take this rare occasion to suggest that we’ve got some issues here. First of all, if a city has been destroyed, as they claim, that Rome has on some level, then surely the real building process is a great time to lay down some order, some straight lines, some roads that intersect with each other, but no chaotic. Rebuilding commences, and everybody gets their own public tile to stick in their house. It’s like they prioritize the pottery aspect, but not the planning aspect,

Dr Rad 3:05
which seems very un roman, I have to say. I mean, the Romans of the popular imagination are quite orderly folk.

Dr G 3:12
This is true, and I think Rome is trying to now explain to itself why their main city, their personal stronghold, does not replicate the Roman camp system and the Roman colony system that develops later on. It’s like they only get into straight lines in the future, and they have to kind of backtrack on this.

Dr Rad 3:31
It’s like when someone really immaculate invites you to their home, and it’s like, disgusting, and they’re like, oh yes, sorry. It’s just been a really chaotic way.

Dr G 3:41
It’s been tough. I haven’t had a chance to clean up. And you’re like, what?

Dr Rad 3:45
But why? How? How does this happen? You’re so put together. How is this where you live?

Dr G 3:50
Like every time I see you out, you’re looking great, and it’s like, oh yeah, I just threw that on. But at home, I’m just like a little gremlin. So that is how the Romans seem to be treating the story of their origins, and how the topography of the city really looks in later periods of history. And so for to some extent, I think I’ve mostly done with 390 BCE, and I know that in the previous episode, we talked about a whole bunch of things, or I talked about a whole bunch of things that the Romans were supposed to have done, particularly Camillus in the latter part of this year, which you assure me he could not possibly have done, because that is all still to come in Livy,

Dr Rad 4:33
he was too busy giving speeches. Dr G he had some convincing to do. There was some serious rhetoric happening.

Dr G 4:39
It was a lot. This was reminiscent of the moment maybe 20 or 30 episodes ago where I was deep in the bowels of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and every single person in the Senate gave an epic speech, and you just have to wade through it and listen. And I’ve got my chance now, because Camilla’s boy can he talk.

Dr Rad 4:55
I know, like you know, it’s actually making me quite nostalgic for our old

Dr Rad 4:59
episodes. Words, where it would just be basically a speechifying

Dr G 5:03
back and forth, having an argument. So before we move on from this year and the general chaos that may be some of the events that cover more years than just 390 there is some detail that I’d like to bring in, which is kind of like my side series from Diodorus Siculus, which is Meanwhile in Sicily.

Dr Rad 5:27
Yeah, yes. Dr G’s side hustle,

Dr Rad 5:28
My side branching out from Rome, I know, like, let’s check out what the Greek colonies are doing greater I know well, I feel like it’s going to become important later on to appreciate what’s happening here. But also we have this supposed connection between Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse, and the imputation that he might be involved with the Gaulish force as well. And some of our sources suggest that maybe he had paid the Gauls to like swing around further into Italy than they were planning to initially and to do something about Rome. Now, why he would care about that is anyone’s guess, because he himself is really bogged down in minucii, in the toe

Dr Rad 6:13
of Italy. We see one of my accounts, I can’t remember, which did suggest that he had hired the Gauls to serve as auxiliaries in his own little shenanigans, so in the in the conflicts that he was caught up in. And it was just that the Gauls happened to be passing by see Rome and say, Hey, that looks like a nice place to raid. And so it was kind of an accidental sacking

Dr G 6:41
well to rub salt into Rome’s wound, we weren’t even planning on stopping here. Yeah, this wasn’t our game at all. We were just passing through and you looked pretty so another account. And again, because there’s so many sources for this, I legitimately cannot remember which source told me this, but the idea was that after the Gauls left Rome, one of the accounts has them heading south rather than North, and they get all the way down into the Calabrian region, and they do have contact with Dionysius of Syracuse’s forces as well, before they decide to swing back and head north and leave Italy all together, apparently. So there’s a lot going on that suggests that this potential interconnection, it sounds a little bit like a conspiracy to me, where people are like, doing the red string everywhere, being like they’re all connected. And whether that’s the case or not, I’m not sure that we’re ever really going to be able to solve but it is certainly the case that in this moment of time, Diodorus Siculus tells us that the tyrant of Syracuse has taken a whole bunch of his forces across to the toe of Italy and has been engaging in a very long siege of rhegium. And Rhegium is you can see it from Sicily. It’s on the west coast of Italy, and he has managed to cut off all of the supplies into Rhegium. So this siege has been going on for quite some time. This whole process has led to substantial problems for the population of Rhegium, apparently, obviously, they’ve eaten through their food supplies. First of all, then they start to eat their animals, beasts of burden. They also then start boiling up the skins and the leathers in order to get nutrients out of them. Yeah. Yeah. And eventually they’re forced into a situation where they feel like there is legitimately nothing left for them to eat inside the walls of the city. So they go out of the city and they start eating the grass. Yes. So this is a horrifying siege situation, much more devastating it sounds than the sorts of descriptions we had of the Gallic siege of Rome, and potentially because it’s just been going on for months longer, some of the suggestions in our sources about the Gallic sack of Rome is that the siege went on for about six or seven months. The siege of Rhegium has been going on for almost double that amount of time, and it has led to some really tragic consequences. So there is no way for Dionysus of Syracuse’s forces to find out what is happening. They’re clearly besieging this city. They have been for a long time. You would notice people in a really weak physical condition leaving the city in order to eat the grass surrounding the city. There is no sense of compassion that comes from the Syracusan forces. When Dionysius learns that this is happening, he basically brings out his own cattle to eat all of the grass in front of the city walls.

Dr Rad 9:59
Oh. My God, and see this is why he’s called the tyrant of Syracuse, not the cuddly wuddly Teddy Bear of Syracuse.

Dr G 10:06
Exactly. This is not a nice guy, and it is so grim what he is up to here, but he ensures that all of the surrounding land of the city is stripped of anything that could be edible, and as a result, the people of regium have no choice but to surrender.

Dr Rad 10:28
Sad after going to all those lengths to try and hold out against him.

Dr G 10:33
Yes, they tried to hold out as long as they could. They weren’t able to do it. When the Syracusan forces enter into Rhegium, they find heaped up dead bodies in the streets. People have just been starving to death, and the people that he does capture are completely weakened, very emaciated. He takes 6000 captives, and he sends most of them back to Syracuse, and they’re obviously going to become enslaved, that is, if they survive the whole process of becoming re nutritioned. Because that is a real issue as well when you’ve really nutritioned, yeah, so if you go into a period of starvation, there is a point where your body cannot handle taking in nutrition.

Dr Rad 11:23
I know I was just, I was just enjoying your word play re nutrition.

Dr G 11:27
I mean, it’s pretty horrific. And I suppose the contemporary example that is worth mentioning is what is happening to Palestinians in Gaza and the challenges that are there, and we’re seeing a very similar situation in the ancient world, in terms of people who have been so starved that it’s going to be very difficult to bring them back to a good, healthy condition, even if you were to enslave them, which seems to be The intent so beyond that, which is the horrifying nature of siege warfare and the devastation that wreaks upon people. The general of the regians, a guy called Photon, is also captured.

Dr Rad 12:14
Ooh, I remember this guy.

Dr Rad 12:15
This guy, and Dionysius, first of all, takes Photon’s son and drowns him in the sea. Bloody hell yes. And Photon himself is then bound to the siege engines and sort of driven around by the Syracusan forces so he can look upon the devastation of the city treated pretty terribly. And Photon says to Dionysius, reputedly, according to Diodorus Siculus, that he had been more fortunate than his father in one day about the drowning of his son, that his son had received a greater sense of peace and closure by being drowned in the sea than what was happening to him, and Dionysius then leads him around the city, flogging him in front of everybody with a herald announcing the vengeance of the Syracusans, and particularly against Photon for having lead, led the resistance movement against the Syracusans. And the Syracusans have turned up from a different island. They come from Sicily. What are they even doing in Italy? So it seems really legitimate that the regians would be like, This is our place. You cannot have it. So Photon really pays the biggest price for that in terms of his treatment by the Syracusan forces and particularly by Dionysius. So he’s now his legacy in terms of the historical record, is that he is recognized as a hugely brave General has endured a lot of pain and suffering, and this is suggestive of his high courage and spirit, and this doesn’t leave a good reputation for Dionysius of Syracuse, obviously, but he is gaining a reputation that people are going to fear, for sure.

Dr Rad 14:15
Well, thanks for that peppy little episode to kick off.

Dr G 14:21
Just in case we thought the galaxy of Rome was was bad. It seems it’s a time of sieges in Italy in general, and some of them are going pretty terribly. Yeah, all of a sudden

Dr Rad 14:34
it seems like the Romans were more having a pleasant vacation when it came to the Gauls, rather than what they could have been enduring Exactly.

Dr G 14:41
They still had their jewelry. They still had their sacred geese that they hadn’t eaten yet.

Dr Rad 14:45
You know, hey, gold stashed away somehow.

Dr G 14:47
Exactly. So there is what seems to be. The larger issue at play is that Italy seems to be increasingly unstable. Places are not able necessarily, to defend themselves. Themselves against invading forces, and we’ve got two examples in 390 or thereabouts, of foreign invaders coming into mainland Italy and making a real dent in local populations, which gels with what we’ve been talking about probably for the last decade or so, where it seems like Italy’s not doing great. There’s been a lot of pestilence, there’s been poor harvests, and it seems like trade is not at its greatest extent either. And we’re now seeing what could be some of the opportunistic moments that emerge from that process, which is people being like, now’s my chance to get in on Italy, and definitely what we get from Dionysius of Syracuse is a very mean and uncompassionate approach to siege warfare. This is probably of the descriptions of sieges that we’ve encountered so far in broader Roman history up until this point, this one sounds like the worst to me in terms of the nature of the suffering of the people and how the generals are treated in the aftermath of their defeat. So that that concludes 390 BCE, from me.

Dr Rad 16:24
What a note to end on. Dr, G, thank you so much for that. That will haunt me in my dreams later tonight.

Dr G 16:30
You’re most welcome.

Dr Rad 16:32
But I think what you said is really interesting. If we look at that wider view of you know what’s been happening in the period that we’ve been talking about, probably for us, over the course of a couple of years. But you know, in terms of Roman history and the history of Italy and this region, you know talking about the last sort of 10-20, years, if we are seeing hardship brought about by things like, as you say, poor harvest and pestilence and that sort of thing, these are exactly the kinds of trends that people who are trying to understand what history can teach us about what our future holds are studying. The idea is, obviously that in times of hardship, it would often be easier if humans could pool resources and also pool ideas, band together and work as a community in order to solve these problems and deal with hardships, you know, spread resources out and that sort of thing. But realistically, if we look at what humans have done in the past, generally, it’s actually kind of easier. It’s the easy road to just take, to just steal what you need and what resources you feel like you want, rather than to work towards a solution. And that’s kind of what we’re seeing with the impact of climate change. So often humans are taking that easy but incredibly slippery route, you know, and also giving money towards band aiding the damage, rather than investing in the solutions to prevent those kinds of things from happening in the first place, and and that’s the real concern, as climate change starts have more and more of an impact on resource shortage, particularly things like food and water, which is so crucial. Are we going to see more war as people are fighting for access to those resources because it’s easier to take than to work towards a solution, or are we going to take the other path, which probably is harder because it requires patience and dedication and and maybe a bit of self denial and those sorts of things, and, you know, hardship in the in the short moment, but in the long term, hopefully it would lead to a better solution. Now the good news is, obviously that the history of the future isn’t written. We can decide what path it is we want to take. But I do find it interesting to sort of look at these examples from ancient history, because I feel like they actually do have some bearing on our present moment, even though, for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in wealthy parts of the world. We might not be feeling it right now. It is something that I think in our in our lifetimes, we’ll probably have to

Dr G 19:08
start thinking about, yeah, definitely. And I think one of the great benefits of history as you know, is this, it gives us a whole bunch of exemplar where be like if this was the situation, and these are the ways that it played out. This is potentially a way that we could anticipate that this would play out as well. It seems a reasonable expectation that if we don’t make systems change, that people will be forced into a situation of reactionary change, where warfare and theft the predominant drivers in order to continue survival, rather than a slow implementation of systems change which will allow a more equitable distribution of resources for everybody. And so I think there is a sense in which being a historian is also tied very much into. To your political activism in the sense that you can see where these things have gone in the past, you have a potential to be an influence on what the future is like, knowing what those consequences look like if they play out in a certain way rather than another. And then you can think about how you’re going to push your personal energy and think about how that looks to create that systems change that you’re really interested in for that equality later down the track. So dear listeners, whip out your political activism. Stay strong.

Dr Rad 20:36
Stay strong. I’ve never been political in my life.

Dr G 20:43
We are an apolitical podcast.

Dr Rad 20:45
Absolutely never had an opinion. You know, objective, objective history. That’s what we’re all about here.

Dr G 20:51
It’s all about the facts, and only the facts.

Dr Rad 20:54
That’s why we’re called the objective historians. Exactly, exactly. All right? Dr, G, well, it gives me great pleasure to announce that I think that this means that we might be moving into 389, BCE, no, it can’t be possible. Did this day come? Were my prayers answered?

Dr G 21:15
I refuse to believe there must be so many more things that happened in that year. In fact, all of Roman history happens in 390 BCE, and I refuse to leave that year until we’ve done it all.

Dr Rad 21:26
All right, let’s do it. Dr, G, let’s go into the future. You.

Dr Rad 21:53
All right. Dr, G, it feels like way too long since I have asked you this question. But can you tell me who were the magistrates for 389 BCE?

Dr G 22:02
Oh, I’m so glad you’ve asked. I have a pretty long laundry list of people to get through. It is long. Yeah, it is so long. All right, we have military tribunes with consular power. First of all. And excuse me, dear listeners, it’s been so long since I’ve had to pronounce so much Latin one after the other that this might go terribly, terribly wrong.

Dr Rad 22:24
Doing our transcriptions, I must admit, has been a lot easier in some ways, for the Gallic sack of Rome, because without the magistrates, there’s been far fewer corrections from the generative AI Exactly.

Dr G 22:36
Well, first off the ranks is Lucius Valerius, son of Lucius, grandson of Lucius Publicola. He is a patrician. No surprises there the great Valerii Publicii.

Dr Rad 22:51
Yes. This is

Dr G 22:53
a very old name. This is a very old name at this point. Now, he was also a military tribune with consular power in 394, and he’s also going to hold the same role in the future. But I won’t spoil that for you by telling you those years yet.

Dr Rad 23:06
Please don’t

Dr G 23:08
We also have Lucius Verginius Tricostus. Now we think he might have been previously military tribune in 402, but frankly, in my mind, that was so long ago that I can’t recall well,

Dr Rad 23:21
Even Broughton has a question mark there. So I think you’re entitled to your lack of certainty.

Dr G 23:26
I have questions. Publius Cornelius, and we think he has a third name, but we don’t know what it is.

Dr Rad 23:35
Well, I mean, if he’s a patrician, he probably does.

Dr G 23:37
He probably does, but we’re not sure about it. Aulius Manlius Capitolinius, and we’ve seen some Manlii before, so I think none of these names are going to be surprising, but it is confusing because they all sound kind of the same. Yeah. Lucius Aemilius Mamercinus, Lucius Postumius Albinus Regillensis. So that gives us what 123456, military tribunes with consular power, which is kind of like the upper limit of what we’ve seen in terms of this cohort. Nevertheless, our trusty friend Broughton also has another couple of possibilities on this list a guy called Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.

Dr Rad 24:25
I remember that horrible Latin name – Mugillanus.

Dr G 24:32
And also big question marks are Marcus Furius, which sounds like maybe it would be Camillus, but maybe we’re not really sure anyway. Suffice it to say that Camillus seems to still be the dictator, or is reinstated as the dictator of Rome. So Marcus Furius Camillus is back in the role as dictator, but he does have a new master of the horse, which suggest that he’s come out of the role and then gone back into the role because he’s appointed a new guy to be his second in charge.

Dr Rad 25:08
He’s just your side kick Robin to his Batman, indeed.

Dr G 25:12
Indeed, And the Robin to his Batman is a guy called Gaius Servilius Ahala.

Dr Rad 25:19
We know this name. They so often crop up as master of the horse. I mean, one might be suspicious of what the historians are doing.

Dr G 25:27
I am concerned about the list of names that we have, yeah, but he is a new guy. Last year’s master of the horse was a guy called Lucius Valerius, either Publicola or Potitus. I’m not really entirely sure there. So there’s some confusion, but this guy has a sufficiently different name that we’re pretty sure it must be a different guy, right? We also have some really large question marks about censors. It’s been maybe a hot minute since Rome has decided to count its population.

Dr Rad 25:59
Well, they were, they were spread out everywhere. Dr, G, and then they weren’t there. They were.

Dr G 26:04
Some of them were hanging out in Veii. Some of them wanted to leave for they. Some of them were in the countryside, hiding from the Gauls in a tree.

Dr Rad 26:11
Yeah, don’t get any way. This is my tree house, mine.

Dr G 26:14
I’m pretending to be a statue, like, so realistic. And I say, like the statues. And so we have some question marks, one, because we don’t know whether there are later things that happen a few years from now that mean that they needed to have senses in this year for those things to be true, or whether those things that happen in the future could have been done without the senses and they just got around it some other way. So there’s a high level of doubt, but we have potentially Marcus Furius and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus again, because he was question mark, one of the military tribunes with consular power, and this Marcus Furius is obviously the other question mark on military tribune with consular power. So these two guys might have been the censors, but we’re not entirely sure. And we also have some interreges,

Dr Rad 27:13
oh yes, which

Dr G 27:15
it’s like stepping back in time, because I think to myself, the interreges are kind of like this lingering role from the kingship period of Rome’s history and interreges is the guy who fills in when you don’t have the king, but he must have a slightly different role at this point, because it does not make any sense whatsoever to be like we just got the interim King

Dr Rad 27:37
hanging around, right? I think it’s just about the transfer of power, because they have been cropping up all throughout this Republican period. So I think it’s just about those times when Rome needs a placeholder. Every now and then you need a placeholder. Dr, G, yeah, and they just

Dr G 27:51
haven’t updated the name. Yeah, they’re never going to have kings, but they’re they don’t mind having interim guys. That’s right.

Dr Rad 27:58
We’ll never have kings again, except temporarily in this weird shift system that we’ve got going every now and then.

Dr G 28:04
So there may have been a moment where they’ve yet to hold elections, which would make sense. They’ve had a pretty devastating year. They might not have gotten organized in time, and the previous magistrates have exited a role, and they just need somebody to cover the reins of power while they get the next election organized. Something like that would make sense to have interreges for. And according to our list, we have Pubilius Cornelius Scipio and Marcus Furius Camillus. Well, who else this guy’s everywhere. There’s not a role this man doesn’t hold. And so these two, apparently, are sort of getting things organized for a transfer of power, which I don’t know, conveniently ends with Camillus being the dictator.

Dr Rad 28:50
I was gonna say, from Camillus to Camillus as interreges, and then to Camillus again as dictator. On the other side.

Dr G 28:55
This man has sticky fingers, and we also finally, oh, no, not finally. Correction, I’ve got more to go. There is a named tribune of the plebs. Yay, Power to the People. Hey, yes, up until now, I haven’t emphasized this, but up until now, every name has been a patrician name, and the tribune of the plebs is Gnaeus Marcius, so we’ll see how he goes in the role. And we also have the name of a prefect who just so happens to be the son of Camillus, yes, it seems. And this prefect is Lucius Furius Camillus, so we suspect that he wouldn’t be the first son, because the first son would definitely be called Marcus, if this family has held on to the Roman traditions of always naming the first son after the dad, so he might be the second kid.

Dr Rad 29:54
It’s definitely evidence of a conspiracy against the Romans to make things difficult for. Of the people that would study them. Yeah, we’ll have these really complicated names, and then we’ll force the first son to always have the same name as the father, just to really confuse them.

Dr G 30:12
Which Marcus are you talking about? And this is why I suspect greatly that the Romans mostly operated in their day to day life on nicknames, because otherwise you would just spend your whole time being like Lucius and 20 guys turn around. It’s not okay. Everyone would have to have a nickname for their day to day life, even if it doesn’t make it into the inscription, I think all right, so that is my really long list of our players for 389, BCE, oh, it just, it doesn’t even roll off the tongue properly.

Dr Rad 30:48
I think you did very well. Dr G, it was hard to go back to and then to have such a long list as your first time in a while. Oh, it’s tough.

Dr G 30:55
So what’s happening in this year? That’s my big question.

Dr Rad 30:59
Well. Dr G, this is the big question, isn’t it? Because Livy, in this moment, I think, wants to paint the transition from 390 to 389 as somewhat of a turning point, as you shall see, historians do question the nature of the turning point that he highlights. However, there is no denying that there are some notable changes that we start to see in terms of Roman history after the Gallic sack of Rome, whether it happened in exactly 390 or maybe a few years later, who knows. But around this time, we do start to see a shift. And for some historians, this is really kind of the true beginning of the Roman Republic as we understand it, because so many of our sources come from later in the Roman Republic. By that, I mean we start to see Rome truly embark upon a period of expansionism, where conquest, conquest, conquest is the name of the day. They’re going to be engaged in a lot of warfare, as we will see. And by the time we’re getting towards the end of this century, we will start to see more of Central Italy under Roman control. Sorry, everyone, spoilers.

Dr G 32:17
Oh my No, goodness,

Dr Rad 32:19
I know I always forget to say spoilers before I say the spoiler.

Dr G 32:23
Can I just note as well is that we’ve talked a little bit about how Livy book one to book five is kind of like his setup for the rest of his history. And 389 I’m not personally reading Livy, but 389 sort of marks his shift into book six. Yes, which is so we’ve got this narrative turning point that we see for Livy as well, which is where we start to feel like we’re going to get more solid Roman history before. Up until now, we feel like we’ve been wading through a lot of question marks, and I’m sure we’ll still have a lot of questions. But the history of the fifth century, of the Republic and this early fourth century, has been tricky in terms of, how do we know what we know? We don’t have a lot of archeological evidence to sort of support one way or the other, the way that these things are operating. We’re not sure about the Gaelic sack at all in terms of stratification layers and things like that. So we end up in a situation where the literature is fundamental to our appreciation of what might be going on, but this means that we’re also limited by the narrative frameworks that our writers are interested in using. How do they want to see Rome themselves? And what does that also tell us about the history?

Dr Rad 33:50
Absolutely, and so we’re also going to see some changes for the conflict of the orders. I’m not going to spoil that. I’ll just say plebeian and patricians. There’s some big things that are going to happen in this century. So that’s going to change a little bit. And perhaps we also as a result of the expansion that Rome is going to undergo over the next sort of, you know, 50 to 70 years or so, we’re going to see a bit of a change in terms of the way that the Romans conceive of their government, things like citizenship. And we’re also going to see some military changes. It seems to be in this century that we start to see the inclusion of the Scutum and the pilum in, yeah, as weaponry. And we also see the transition from the hoplite phalanx to the manipular Legion. Oh, hello.

Dr G 34:41
Okay, so the Scutum is the fancy shield. It is the rectangular one. I believe.

Dr Rad 34:47
I believe so.

Dr G 34:48
And the pilum is the little javelin, which you can also, you can throw it, but you can also stab somebody with

Dr Rad 34:54
it, bop it, switch it, change it.

Dr G 34:58
It’s universal. Yeah, got a problem. Hit it with your pilum.

Dr Rad 35:04
Hit it with your pilum stick. And so, yes, it is that kind of shift to what most people probably think of like the as the Republican Army. You know, a lot of the things that most people would sort of know about. And so, yeah, it’s kind of an interesting phase that we’re getting into. So now I’m going to actually that was something I was borrowing from. Jeremy Armstrong, Thanks, Jeremy. I’m now gonna get into Livy

Dr G 35:26
himself also, Jeremy, come on the show.

Dr Rad 35:29
Let’s chat. I was, you know, we should ask him to come on the show. I was thinking that when I was reading this chapter, I was like, Yeah, this guy, he is on the same wavelength. So Livy, he starts book six with his big sort of transition speech where he’s like, Look, guys, I’m going to be real with you. It’s been tough to write rooms history up to this point. I know I’ve been doing it for a really long time, but I’m not going to lie. Didn’t really have great source material, not really sure how true. What I’ve told you is

Dr G 36:03
disclaimer, the last five books may have been entirely made up.

Dr Rad 36:07
And he says, you know, really, it’s because early in Rome, people just didn’t write things down enough those archaic knob heads rude and so that’s an issue. But also the sack of Rome. The sack of Rome meant that whatever little records he had, like, you know, things that priests were keeping track of, and, you know, recording their commentaries, all of that had been burned when the Gauls had attacked and sacked the city, but now everything is going to be different. Dr G Livy assures you that he has 100% reliable records from this point on. Did you say 100% I’m bringing in my Australian vernacular to our show.

Dr G 37:01
This is not a good sign. Livy, not a good sign. Yeah, look, I’m

Dr Rad 37:07
going to then immediately swell that by saying most historians think this is total bullshit.

Dr G 37:12
Well, exactly. I mean, if the city has been sacked, as you say, and things like the linen scrolls haven’t made

Dr Rad 37:18
it through the fires, well, they’re made of linen. Dr, G, I mean, it’s one of the most lovely materials. But delight,

Dr G 37:25
not sturdy, not fire proof, yeah. So the idea that somehow, from this point onwards, there would be immediately a great profusion of written material surprises.

Dr Rad 37:38
They’re writing everything down now they’ve learned they left.

Dr G 37:41
It’s got to be documented, and you’ve got to put it in the filing cabinet, and there needs to be a backup.

Dr Rad 37:47
Well, I do like the way that my translator has put this little quotation from Livy. He talks about writing as being the sole, trustworthy guardian of the memory of past events.

Dr G 37:59
Oh, that’s actually really beautiful. I don’t know if I 100% agree with that, but certainly it’s very useful when people write stuff down and it lasts and we

Dr Rad 38:08
can read it later, precisely, yeah. Look, most people don’t think as we know, because we’ve been through this in enough detail that Rome was set on fire, to the extent that Livy would like us to believe. So the idea that all written records in the city were destroyed questionable, but also probably not true, that Livy has really reliable records. There’s definitely still some development. I think that needs to happen before we can safely say that what he is reporting is probably really reliable.

Dr G 38:50
And you’ll see why, yes, and look and that’s okay, I think yeah, our doubt about the source material and where it comes from is going to continue for a little while, and I think this is where having alternative sources becomes really useful, because we can see to a certain extent, where they might have taken a piece of information from a similar place, or they’ve consulted a similar source, or whether they’re just operating in a sort of rogue fashion, or maybe have access to sources that other writers aren’t getting their hands on. So it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Dr Rad 39:29
Yeah, look and humans do look for turning points in their histories. That’s kind of natural. So I can understand how, in the way that Livy’s conceived of everything, particularly with his seeming obsession with Camillus, that he wants to see the Gallic sack of Rome, I think, as a real transition point. And he obviously has a sense that his records get better from around this time. And so, you know, when you’re writing things down, it’s nice to make a grand statement that, you know, we’re starting fresh guys, everything’s. To be different after the Gallic sack of Rome. Except it’s not because Camillus is still everywhere.

Dr G 40:07
Yeah. So Well, I mean, Camillus has a lot of places to be, and my sources went through them and thought that they all happened in 390 but Livy seems to think that he was a bit slower off the bat.

Dr Rad 40:19
I assure you, that is not the guess so okay, where we’re at at the beginning of 389 so Rome has obviously been heavily reliant upon Camillus. In my account, as we have seen, he’s a big deal in 390 they’re very reliant on him during this rebuilding period. And they basically say, No, Camillus, you can’t put down your dictatorship until you’ve held it for a full year, because we need you, buddy. We need your power. Now this is unusual. Perhaps it doesn’t sound crazy because of what we know of dictatorships that happen later in Rome’s history, but up until this point, even though we have had quite a lot of dictatorships, when you actually step back and look at what’s happened during those dictatorships, you realize that, like two weeks have passed. It’s not something that people have necessarily helped for a really long time. I haven’t actually added up the statistics, and I now I’m regretting that, but I reckon that the longest dictatorship we’ve generally seen, pre Camillus’ time, I reckon at most was probably a couple of months.

Dr G 41:22
Yeah, we’ve got this sense, and this comes from later history than where we’re at now that the dictatorship is something that you hold for six months. But what we’ve tended to see in these very early versions of the dictatorship that it’s about just getting a single job done, yeah, and as soon as that job is done, and it’s this emergency power, then the dictator steps back down. And we’ve got this really unusual situation now, because it seems like Camillus is being asked to continue well beyond a strict time frame. And they’re kind of saying you need to hold it until X amount of time, which is very different from the idea that as soon as the job is done, you step down, they’re anticipating that he will have to keep going, and they’re not letting him step down to a certain extent, or they’re reinstating him in a way that’s going to force the role to continue.

Dr Rad 42:15
Well, really, he got everything done he needed to in six months, but then that speech he gave lasted for six months, and that’s why they were just factoring in time for the

Dr G 42:25
speech. Yeah, look, that speech

Dr Rad 42:27
was a whopper. Now, eventually, obviously, camilius dictatorship has to come to an end, and this is when Rome decides it’s time to have an interregnum. Dr, G, now, the reason being was that it had been under military tribunes at Rome had been captured, and so they think, you know what, let’s just, let’s take a beat. We need to refresh, and let’s just have an interregnum and not hold the elections straight away. So the Roman citizens are completely oblivious to this, apparently, and just working away at doing their rebuilding. Chip, chip, chip. Dig, dig, brick,

Dr G 43:01
brick, brick. And I assume that Romans are trickling in from the countryside, returning to the city. They’ve heard the news people are randomly turning up being like, do we still live here?

Dr Rad 43:11
And so I’m told that Publius Cornelius Scipio and then Marcus Furius Camillus, are holders of the interregnum, and that eventually Camillus will arrange the elections. So, I mean, I’m like, Come on, guys, is this really necessary?

Dr G 43:27
I’m the guy, and then I’m the guy, yeah, and then I’m gonna be

Dr Rad 43:31
the guy again. Yeah, you thought I was joking when I said it goes from Camillus to Camillus to Camillus. I’m not joking.

Dr G 43:36
No, I can see it in in the list of people for the year. He’s in every

Dr Rad 43:40
role, yeah. But meanwhile, whilst all this election stuff is going on in the background, we have a trial on the horizon. So Quintus Fabius is no longer a military Tribune, one of the foolish Fabii, after the whole Gallic sack, helped to contribute to that whole shimozle, and he is indicted by a tribune of the pleb, one, Gnaeus Marcius. So he’s basically indicting him because he says, Look, you violated a Roman law because you got into a fight with one of the goals when you were just meant to be there as a representative, as an envoy. You really screwed the pooch, man. And so he was 100% going to be put on trial, but he died suspicious.

Dr G 44:33
Question mark,

Dr Rad 44:35
yeah, I think that even Livy believes this is far too convenient and that it might have been a suicide or something like that, because I think he knew he wasn’t going to be able to get out of this one. Yeah, he

Dr G 44:46
definitely stabbed somebody he shouldn’t have.

Dr Rad 44:50
Yeah, and this, this, I kind of love going back to that moment in the sense that this, I think, shows this transitional period where we’re perhaps starting to see Rome. Come out of that more sort of archaic Republican period and into maybe a new phase, perhaps, because it does seem like the fabii were maybe behaving like these sort of elite war leaders, and that’s maybe how all this began, in the way that they were conducting themselves with the Gauls and the Romans when they were writing the history, there’s hints of that behavior, but they’re not conceiving of it that way, and that’s where perhaps the confusion arises.

Dr G 45:28
Yeah, I do like this idea that we’re seeing what is potentially the start of a slow transition from Warband leaders doing what they want to heading up their family and Rome is their second consideration and maybe a small increase in understanding that Rome is the thing that has to come first, and your family is part of Rome, and that’s why you can’t just go out and stab somebody when you’re supposed to be a Roman ambassador. Yeah, yeah, stabbing

Dr Rad 45:56
someone when you’re meant to be an ambassador is not a good idea. I mean,

Dr G 46:00
it seems risky at best.

Dr Rad 46:03
All right, so back to our elections. Dr, G, so there are question marks around this because of Camillus repeated involvement in this whole process. As we know, Camillus seems to have been inserted into events where maybe he wasn’t originally involved, so not entirely sure if there was actually an interregnum or not. However, given that the Romans definitely have been through something traumatic, it wouldn’t be the craziest thing for them to be thinking about, like the renewing the auspices, trying to make sure they’re on, you know, the right path with the gods. So it’s possible that there was an interregnum of sorts at this time period to ease with the transition and sort of, you know, start afresh, basically, now our military tribunes, as you’ve highlighted, we’ve got Lucius Valerius Publicola in Livy’s account, Lucius Verginius, Publius Cornelius, Aulus Manlius, Lucius Aemilius, and Lucius Postumius in Livy’s account, the new military tribunes asked the Senate immediately about some matters concerning religion, because they also are on the Camillus campaign trail. It’s all about doing right by the gods. And so one of their first decrees is, all right, everyone, get your Sherlock Holmes outfits out. We need to find the Twelve Tables and some of the laws that were made by the kings, if it’s even possible, after our city’s been burned to the ground,

Dr G 47:29
somebody find the tablets we need to have law and order around here. They do,

Dr Rad 47:34
apparently, do this investigation, uncover some of the laws, and then some of the laws are even made public so that your average Roman citizen knows what they are. This is

Dr G 47:47
incredible stuff. This is a huge development in Roman history. Everybody, Alert, alert. People can read the laws for themselves.

Dr Rad 47:54
They actually know the rules that they’re supposed to be playing by. It’s outrageous, shocking. However, there is a very deliberate decision made that anything that touches on the sacred rights, and I’m directly quoting my translation there, is only allowed to be known by the pontiffs, basically because, and again, I’m going to directly quote this, they want to hold the minds of the populace in subjection through religious fear.

Dr G 48:29
Look, you win a point and you lose a point, these patricians really okay. So this, unfortunately, makes a good deal of sense for the ancient Roman mindset, particularly the patricians.

Dr Rad 48:43
Oh, look, it’s what we’ve seen time and time again. Dr, G, they really want to keep a stranglehold on that religious aspect. They do,

Dr G 48:50
and we know that religious positions tend to be filled almost exclusively by very elite patrician families. So there’s a sense in which they are holding those secrets very close, and they can decide in the moment what might be best, either according to the things that they’ve kept hidden, or potentially the things that they’ve decided not to reveal to the people. Yeah, so I

Dr Rad 49:16
like that they also start discussing which were going to be the days of evil omen?

Dr G 49:24
Oh, okay, so we’re starting to see the emergence of some calendar details. Which days will be fast, suitable for business, and which days will be nefas, unsuitable for business,

Dr Rad 49:36
unsuitable for business. So the 18th of July. No shock. This is known as a particularly awful day, because not only is it the day where the Romans were defeated by the Gauls at the Alia, but it also was coincidentally, the same exact day of that huge Fabian loss at the Cremera, like way back in the early republic. Hmm. Yeah, they decided to call it the day of the Alia. No public or private business to be conducted on the day of the Alia.

Dr G 50:07
Dr, G, yeah, terribly nefast will have none of that around here.

Dr Rad 50:11
Now, there are also some days that fell out of favor because of the conduct of Sulpicius during this campaign. So basically, on a day after the Ides of July. So like a full moon, sort of period, he had made a dodgy sacrifice, and then, without the divine approval to do so, had led the Romans against the goals. We all know how that turned out.

Dr G 50:35
Oh no, dodgy sacrifices.

Dr Rad 50:38
Good. Yes. Me, not good, not good. So it means that, and I am just going to read this part out, because I think it’s just easier afterwards, it became traditional that the morrow after the Kalends so after the first day of the month and the nones, actually, is it knowns or nones?

Dr G 50:58
I say nones, but don’t let that stop you.

Dr Rad 51:01
Okay, and nones that these should also be avoided because of the issues around the conduct of Sulpicius. Wow. Okay, so, yeah, it all is basically, I think, to do with like, moon cycles and whatnot.

Dr G 51:18
Yeah, interesting. Very interesting. The Romans

Dr Rad 51:23
are now, obviously interested. Now they’ve dealt with all this, the Romans are trying to get themselves back together, back on track, when the Volscians decide to kick off. Because what better time to attack the Romans than now, when they’re still down, and I think that they had come into your account last episode, I see that

Dr G 51:45
Livy is falling behind on the narrative history of Rome. This has already happened, Livy, this all happened in 390 BCE, yeah.

Dr Rad 51:55
And it gets way more sinister, because the Romans also hear through the trade grapevine that the elite from all the major Etruscan cities had met up at the old shrine of Voltumna, which we actually think was more a place of sort of, you know, religious and social and cultural importance, but it pretty much exclusively turns up in Livy’s account as a place of evil plotting against the Romans. They get together and they decide it is time to wage war against the Romans. There’s a lot of evil now we’re not even entirely sure. I’m just going to remind you exactly who Livy’s talking about with the major Etruscan cities. We can be fairly certain of some of them, so probably places like Kari, which is featured very prominently in our account, Clusium, Cortona and that sort of thing. But we’re not entirely sure exactly who would be included in this fabled Twelve. We’re not even sure exactly where this shrine of Voltumna is. Well, I hope it’s in

Dr G 53:01
Etruscan territory for what it’s called. What it’s worth.

Dr Rad 53:04
I think we can say that. I think we can say that. And while we used

Dr G 53:07
to be able to say that they was part of the Twelve, they no longer exists as an Etruscan. I was gonna

Dr Rad 53:12
say he’s on my list, but obviously it does

Dr G 53:14
not exist anymore. Does not count. So if there’s 12, it turned out that there was 11, and they immediately opened up an additional spot for another Etruscan city who was just on the outskirts, being like, why can’t I be part of the 12? And they’re like, No, we have 12. They lose Veii. And they’re like, a place has opened for another city to

Dr Rad 53:34
join us. Yes, only my opportunity. Finally I’m in and then to really cut things off and make 389 a terrible year when Rome really just needed some good news. Dr G the Latins and Hernicians also decide to revolt, which is bizarre, because they have been very loyal allies of Rome for almost a century at this point,

Dr G 53:59
wow, this is where you really find out who your friends are. First you get sacked, and then your friends decide that they’re going to attack you, frenemies at best, as it turns out.

Dr Rad 54:09
And look, there is confusion about exactly what was going on here. And there are a couple of different accounts. I believe Plutarch gives a different reason. It’s possible that there is kind of something else going on in the background here between the Latins and Hernicians, and it’s not really to do with, say, the sack of Rome. Plutarch gives some story about the Latins asking for Roman virgins from the their elite families, and they want to, like, intermarry with the Latins as a way of symbolizing the renewal of their alliance, but the Romans see this as well. If we give you some of our women, it kind of makes it seems like maybe you’re holding them hostage. I’m not sure about this whole scenario

Dr G 54:53
sounds a bit too much like what we did to the Sabines.

Dr Rad 54:57
Yeah. And then there is apparently a servant girl called Tutula, who says that the Romans should pretend like they’re agreeing, but really they’re going to trick them and teach them a lesson. How so the Romans are going to get together some somewhat attractive women of low birth, if such people even exist in the lower classes? Dr, G, I mean, but they dress them up, give them a pretty woman makeover, make them appear like women of high status, and then hand them over to the Latins. Be like,

Dr G 55:36
No, never. We found these women in a swamp.

Dr Rad 55:41
Yeah. And then it does become a bit Trojan War. I’m not gonna lie, the Latins are obviously partying. Be like we’ve got Roman virgins, we’ve got Roman virgins, and so they’re going to get drunk, they’re going to eat a lot, and then they’re going to sleep very deeply because of all of this. And then that’s when the girls steal their Latins. Tutula climbs up a large tree, she lights a torch to send a signal to the Roman leaders that it’s time for the Romans there and their soldiers to leave the city and they enter the Latin camp and slaughter them all and capture the camp. Wow.

Dr G 56:16
Okay, well, that is hugely dramatic. So we’ve got the volscian threat. We’ve got the Etruscans meeting at their secret shrine of evil plotting. And we’ve got the Latin and Hernicians, who have been sort of meek as mice for quite some time, being like it’s our time. Our time has arrived, and almost instantly

Dr Rad 56:36
regretting that decision. Look, even Plutarch says, I’m not sure that this really happened.

Dr G 56:42
Well, thanks Plutarch. I mean me neither.

Dr Rad 56:45
So regardless of whether we think there was indeed a savvy little servant girl called Tutula who managed to devise an ingenious plot based entirely upon the Trojan War to get back at the latinians, it is probably true that there are some issues about the alliance between the Romans and their allies, not that anything’s necessarily going hugely wrong. It’s more just the fact, perhaps, that it’s time, it is time to renew and maybe renegotiate this arrangement which has been in place for some time. So that’s probably what this whole thing is about. It’s actually probably not really to do with the Gallic sack, per se, although

Dr G 57:29
potentially the Gallic sack, having placed Rome in a slightly defensive position, sure means that maybe the Latin and Hernicians feel like now is a good time to renegotiate the treaty in order to get a better favorable deal than what they’ve previously had.

Dr Rad 57:43
Absolutely yes. So Rome is feeling incredibly sorry for itself. Dr, G, it’s sitting there with its head in its hands, saying, Does

Dr Rad 57:52
nobody like me? Do I have no friends, just enemies. I don’t know what I’ve done to deserve this?

Dr G 58:04
Yeah, look, I feel for them to a certain degree, and on the other hand, they did just send a whole bunch of low born women as a trick to their only allies that they have left. But did they don’t you? Well, apparently, look,

Dr Rad 58:23
Plutarch is writing much later than Livy.

Dr G 58:25
That’s true. That’s true. So, yes, it is a shocking time for Rome. They’ve had their city sacked, and it turns out that everybody around them sees this as an opportunity to take them down a peg, rather than lift them back up, and I can imagine that they’re feeling a little bit bereft,

Dr Rad 58:45
yes, and I think that even if we put aside evil plotting and Trixie servant girls, we can definitely see that the Gallic sack might have taken roam down a peg in everyone’s estimation, and that’s why there’s some room for movement, in Some people’s opinion at this moment in time. And it’s because of all of this that the Romans say, You know what, if I only have enemies, then it’s time to use my knowledge from history and go back to the plan that has always worked to put me back in the number one spot, and that is to make Camillus dictator.

Dr G 59:26
You know? What will solve our woes that man? And he’s like, yep.

Dr Rad 59:30
And I think that’s probably a really good moment to wrap up this episode, because, believe it or not, listeners 389 still has a long way to go in my account.

Dr G 59:39
Oh, goodness me. All right. Well, that means it is time for the partial pick.

Dr Rad 59:53
All right. Dr, G, tell us, how does the partial pick work?

Dr G 59:56
Please. Well, the partial pick the Romans, they’re really trying. Thing to win 50 Golden Eagles from us according to the categories that we made up.

Dr Rad 1:00:06
Hey, if look like and Livy are making up things, I don’t see why we should stop.

Dr G 1:00:11
It’s a great barometer of how they’re going. So they can potentially get up to 10 golden eagles in each of the five categories. And let’s see how they do based on what we’ve talked about in this episode.

Dr Rad 1:00:25
All right. Dr, G, what is our first category, please, military clout. Hmm, well, not really. There’s not really. I mean, there will be, there will be a lot of military action in this year, but at this point,

Dr G 1:00:40
no, no, I suppose we could count their sacking of the Latin and Hernician camp

Dr G 1:00:49
as true. If we think it is real, let’s,

Dr G 1:00:53
let’s say for a moment that it’s something that they might have done that probably gives them a two at the very most,

Dr Rad 1:01:01
yeah, yeah, I think so yeah, top those Latins lessons,

Dr G 1:01:05
yeah, all right. Our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:01:10
Well, again, Latin camp, probably not a great example.

Dr G 1:01:15
Well, and that’s that too lost. So who do they negotiate with almost nobody, yeah, not really.

Dr Rad 1:01:22
I mean, everyone is kind of turning on them, I think, and they have yet

Dr G 1:01:27
to figure out what they do in response to that. So that’s a zero, yeah?

Dr Rad 1:01:31
Expansion, definitely not. They’re still just hanging on to their own city and trying to rebuild it. Quite frankly, yes, it

Dr G 1:01:39
is a shattered moment for Rome. We’re to

Dr Rad 1:01:42
us, definitely no opportunity for that.

Dr G 1:01:45
All right, another zero citizen

Dr Rad 1:01:49
score, okay? I mean, they know some of the laws now. Camillus is basically been in power the entire time somehow, which they like, apparently,

Dr G 1:02:01
yeah, they’re into that. And they are in this, what is, what we think is a rebuilding phase, yes. So that’s better than being in a destruction phase.

Dr Rad 1:02:11
Yeah, they’re in their rebuilding era, building maybe like a five, yeah?

Dr G 1:02:17
I mean, it’s not terrible yet, although there are a lot of threats that are now clearly on the horizon.

Dr Rad 1:02:23
Look, there are, and I feel kind of bad rating Rome on just the first bit of 389 to be honest, because there’s just so much to come. But for now, for now, I feel like, you know, we’re not seeing the persecution of plebeians or anything like that. We’re seeing we’re seeing a clever lower class women at work, which is unusual.

Dr G 1:02:45
Yeah, that’s true.

Dr Rad 1:02:47
We know probably fictional.

Dr G 1:02:48
It is very unusual for us to get named women in Roman history in this period, so the fact that we have one is pretty impressive. We have a citizen who was not a patrician, who was also a woman who has a name, and came up with an idea that made it into somebody’s version of history?

Dr Rad 1:03:07
Absolutely, yeah, even though Plutarch might be like, Hmm, at the same time, somebody’s talking about it, if it survived down to plutarch’s time. I mean, he’s writing, God, what the second century?

Dr G 1:03:18
CE, he’s a lot. I’m so used to saying BC,

Dr Rad 1:03:21
I had to stop myself for a moment. There. Moment. He’s writing so much later.

Dr G 1:03:24
Yeah, yeah. So whatever this story is, and whenever it cropped up, it’s, it’s come up in such a way that Plutarch is, like, it’s worth mentioning, even if I have doubts about it, which I think is quite interesting. So it is and,

Dr Rad 1:03:40
oh, I always almost forgot foolish Fabians to account for all the damage that they unleashed. I mean, it’s basically all their fault. I don’t want to point fingers.

Dr G 1:03:53
Finally, there shall be justice for the people. Yeah, all right, five. I think five is good based on that?

Dr Rad 1:04:00
Well, I’m afraid that that still only gives the Romans seven golden eagles. And to be honest, they’re very shaky. They’re not on solid source material. But we have to keep in mind that’s just the first part of 389.

Dr G 1:04:16
There shall be more, dear listeners, shall be blood. Well, unsurprising to me.

Dr Rad 1:04:26
All right. Dr, G, thank you so much for joining me in a new era. It’s exciting.

Dr G 1:04:31
I’m glad to be here. I’m looking forward to Livy retelling the things that have already happened. Frankly, what Livy does best. I’ll catch you next time.

Dr Rad 1:04:50
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, the Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi, but you can also support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to say somewhere to some of our newest Patreons, Meryl, Jacob, Cindy and Vivek. Welcome to our Partial band. However, if you are surrounded by enemies on all sides, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 172 – A New Republic? appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, one of our lovely Patreons requested that we talk about archaic Roman religion. Religion is Dr G’s favourite topic, so we decided it was well and truly time for us to chat about what the Romans were up to in their early days.

As with all aspects of the archaic period, it can be difficult to find reliable and detailed source material for certain aspects of religious life. However, the gods were hugely important to the Romans, so there are a variety of sources that we can use to piece together an accurate picture. This includes:

We discuss the nature and role of Roman religion in society, whilst trying to mythbust the belief that the Romans just stole everything from the Greeks.

Archaic Roman religion is fascinating, with deities like Quirinus and Robigo (goddess of grain mildew) seeming to date back a long way. As Rome progressed, the state cults became more formalised and ritualised, and new gods were incorporated. You may recall that when the Romans conquered Veii in 396 BCE, they went to great lengths to coax the resident goddess, Juno Regina, to their city. Roman expansion allowed them to come into contact with a greater variety of deities.   

There were several important priestly positions in Rome that we refer to in this episode, so here’s your cheat sheet:

Image of lararium from the Thermopolium of Lucius Vetutius Placidus. The lares stand on either side of the central figure, the Genius of the household. On the far left and far right stand Mercery and Bacchus. Courtesy of Becks on Flickr.

On a more personal level, the Romans were also surrounded by the lares, guardian spirits who were seemingly connected to place, such as the hearth, streets, neighbourhoods and boundaries. If you have been to Pompeii or Herculaneum, you may have seen a lararium, or one of the shrines that people could have in their houses for these deities. Their origin is debated, but no one can deny their presence in the Roman world.

Cicero, De natura deorum

Cicero, On the Reply of the Haruspices

Seneca the Younger, Letters, 41.3

Flower, Harriet I. The Dancing Lares and the Serpent in the Garden: Religion at the Roman Street Corner. 1st ed. Princeton ; Oxford: Princeton University Press, 2017. https://doi.org/10.1515/9781400888016.

Forsythe, Gary. A Critical History of Early Rome : From Prehistory to the First Punic War. Berkeley, Calif. ; University of California Press, 2005.

Scheid, John, and Clifford Ando. The Gods, the State, and the Individual : Reflections on Civic Religion in Rome. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2016. https://doi.org/10.9783/9780812291988.

Tellegen-Couperus, O. E. (Olga Eveline). Law and Religion in the Roman Republic. Edited by Olga Tellegen-Couperus. 1st ed. Vol. 336. Leiden: Brill, 2012. https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004219205.

Warrior, Valerie M. Roman Religion. Cambridge ; Cambridge University Press, 2006.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
P Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:59
Hello and welcome to a brand new special episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G, and I am Dr Rad, and today we are talking about ancient Roman religion.

Dr Rad 1:17
If ever there was a topic that is right up your alley.

Dr G 1:19
Dr G, I know I’m so excited. Oh, there are so many things we could talk about, but I’m going to try and contain myself to a very specific time limit.

Dr Rad 1:28
We have got a request from a Patreon, actually, quite some time ago. So sorry about taking so long to do this. But you know, there are just so many books coming out, so many people to be interviewed. We are going to be looking at archaic Roman religion, which is obviously very in keeping with the time period that we have been covering for the last decade.

Dr G 1:51
Yes, it’s an interesting, really interesting period of Rome’s history, partly because of what we simply don’t know, as listeners will be well aware the written historical record doesn’t kick in for quite some time. So the traditional foundation date of Rome is 753 BCE, but our real historiographical style of writing doesn’t really start to crop up until about the second century BCE, and then we only have sort of fragmentary things until we get into the first century BCE. So this means there’s a huge chunk of Romans history’s time where the Romans understand themselves and talk about themselves and maybe write it down, but we don’t have the evidence for it, and this means that trying to figure out what their practices were, what they were into, what they believe, a lot of that is, on some level,

Dr Rad 2:49
unretrievable, absolutely. However, the good news is that, because we are talking about religion, it’s obviously something that is pretty important to the Romans. And so there are certain types of material, certain kinds of sources that we can turn to that give us little clues. So obviously, there are inscriptions, there are certain kinds of records. They’re nothing like a narrative history, but we do have certain kinds of records that seem to have been around for a long time, which might give us some indication. And of course, you can also look at, you know, etymological kinds of tracing things, try and figure out why that name. What would that mean? How can we trace that back? So there are certain types of material that are around, but you know what? Dr, G, I have to go back to an old story at the start of this episode. I know you heard this many times, but for people like me who were raised on the 1950s golden era of Hollywood, kinds of movies about Rome, the impression I think you often get when you watch these sorts of movies is that the Romans didn’t really believe in anything like they do have Gods Absolutely, but they’re not gods that they have any sort of deep investment in. It’s kind of a tokenistic sort of religion. It comes across as just about decadence. And I think that’s because obviously in those sorts of movies, either you have the Romans being very unfavorably contrasted to the Christians, because it’s usually that sort of a storyline, or it just sort of feeds into the general cynicism of Roman characters. Now I am, of course, thinking about Spartacus, in which there is directly a scene in in which the senator Gracchus, who’s kind of a bit of an anti hero, I suppose he’s the best person on the Roman side, which isn’t saying a ton, but he is meant to be kind of a good guy. He says that he publicly believes in the gods, but privately, of course, it’s. He knows it’s rubbish. And so I always kind of had this impression from movies that the Romans, Therefore were not a particularly religious or pious people, that it was just all about, you know, show, and it wasn’t anything particularly important, since studying that is either mental view I’ve had to really overcome, because I kind of think it’s the opposite. What do you think?

Dr G 5:29
Yeah, what a great setup. It is. Definitely not all that it appears. Thanks Hollywood. I would say that what the Hollywood films are really offering us is big Christianity and its propaganda, which has been incredibly powerful over 1000s of years at this point in terms of demonizing what came before in terms of belief systems and relationships with the divine, because what we see In those films is Roman belief systems being positioned as merely idolatry and a veneration of the object and the decadence that you mentioned, but with no substance behind it whatsoever. And this would be a mistake, because the Romans are deeply, deeply spiritual people and will not move a muscle unless they feel confident that they have divine approval on their side.

Dr Rad 6:26
I have a joke for you. Dr, G, why did the chicken cross the road?

Dr G 6:30
Why did the chicken cross the road?

Dr Rad 6:33
You know what? It’s not so much about why it’s that we have to watch the chicken cross the road, and that will tell us what the gods want us to do.

Dr G 6:39
It’s very important, always, always keep a good eye on the birds. One of the things that I will never get over, I don’t think, is the way that the murmuration of birds above the city of Rome, which you can still witness today, gives us a sense of what it must have been like to be an augur in the ancient Roman world, and an augur is the kind of priest who does spend their time watching the patterns of birds. And because murmurations are so patterned across the sky, this beautiful sort of flow effect that’s created by these birds following each other in patterns which you don’t necessarily see everywhere. I’ve never seen a murmuration in Australia, for instance, you don’t have those kinds of birds. We have very different birds here.

Dr Rad 7:29
So can I say we do have birds that laugh?

Dr G 7:31
We do. We have incredible birds.

Dr Rad 7:34
I am what would the Romans make of that a bird up in the tree laughing?

Dr G 7:38
I am not going to….

Dr Rad 7:39
Just freaked out!

Dr G 7:40
Yeah, the beauty and the magnificence of Australian birds cannot be underestimated, but they are very different from the birds that you would see over the city of Rome today and in the ancient world. And so I can understand how augury developed, and this idea of taking the auspices, because it’s fundamentally embedded in the patterns of nature. And this is where, when we think about archaic Roman religion, the basis in nature is the first place to start. So we’ve got a really beautiful insight from Seneca the younger where he talks about the powerful effects that nature has upon people. And he talks about, if you ever go into a glade of trees, where the trees have grown up so tall and that their canopies intersect with each other in such a way that it feels like you almost cannot see the sky anymore, this will generate within you a very specific type of feeling. And he calls this feeling, the feeling of numen, a sense of the Divine. And likewise, he also talks about, if you are in a cavernous spot where you can see the rock formation naturally created, creating a crevice above which there’s a whole nother section of land, you’re going to have a feeling of awe, a feeling which is described in the Latin as religio, which is where we get our idea and the term religious from.

Dr Rad 9:09
See etymology, etymology.

Dr G 9:12
So, but the Romans think about these things, not necessarily as religion, because I think again, we’re in a very tricky spot as human beings in this point in time, in this point in context where we tend to think about things like a separation between state and religion and all of this kind of stuff. And for the Romans, it wasn’t like that state and religion are not separate things. They are intertwined things. The Divine is everywhere, present in reality. And it’s how do you navigate that? How do you ensure that your relationship with the gods is appropriate? How do you maintain a good relationship with the gods in order to ensure favorable outcomes for yourself and those that you love

Dr Rad 9:56
absolutely and this is where we come back to that very. Wrong idea I had from the 1950s ethics, which is, as you say, Roman religious beliefs, practices. It just permeates every aspect of life like you wouldn’t start any sort of meeting of a political nature without observing the proper rituals, without having certain ceremonies, which would be somewhat unthinkable in certain places in the world today, where we do pride ourselves on having those things quite separate, although sometimes I don’t think they’re as separate as people like to believe. But yeah, definitely the idea that it’s just everywhere, particularly if you even think about things like the lares. The lares are something. They are particularly household gods, which we might get into a little bit later. But they’re also the kinds of gods that you would find out in the streets everywhere, like it’s just everywhere. And if you think about walking around places like Pompeii, the amount of religious imagery you know, relating to gods or mythology, it’s just everywhere. So it just wouldn’t be something that you escaped. It would just be part of your day to day life. But I also want to say how much I loved what you were saying about nature until, yes, Dr rad’s about to get a bit preachy here, but I do think that sometimes people when they look at other cultures, particularly ancient cultures, and they look at their religious beliefs, and the type of religious beliefs, when you bring up things like it being rooted in nature or sort of coming from natural observances, there’s sometimes an attitude that you get from certain types of people where it’s like, oh, how simplistic. You know, they looked at the trees. They looked at the birds. You know, they don’t have an understanding of science and kind of looking down on that sort of belief system as being somewhat primitive compared to what people have access to today in terms of information. Now, obviously it’s illogical to expect people in the ancient times to have a scientific understanding of the world akin to anything like what we have now. They just can’t, obviously. But I also don’t think that it should be dismissed as simplistic or primitive or anything like that. In fact, I think we actually probably need a little bit more of that these days. Now, I am a city girl. I am aware of the dangerous pedestal I am ascending right now, but genuinely, I think that part of our problem when dealing with current environmental issues is that we actually don’t pay enough attention to nature going on around us. And it is actually really miraculous what we have around us, the variety of animal life, the way that this planet functions, the gifts that we are given, and what we’ve been able to turn them into, and how we’ve been able to harness a certain lifestyle from entirely the natural resources around us, we are not paying enough attention to nature and the signals that are being sent to us, and that is a huge problem. We know. You know from so many studies how much nature is connected to human well being, and yet, instead, we turn to other things, rather than just embracing the need, we have to connect with nature and have a deeper, a deeper relationship with nature. And yeah, I just, I just see it as a huge problem. So I don’t see it as simplistic or primitive. I see it as something that actually probably really did bring the Romans something really powerful.

Dr G 13:25
Yeah, definitely. And I see where you’re coming from when we’re thinking about the sustainability of the planet and having an outlook like the early Romans did, I wouldn’t necessarily get on board with maybe their later Imperial cult business, but certainly early, archaic religion from a Roman perspective, very grounded in nature, very grounded in observations about the natural world, and then considering quite carefully, what is our relationship in response to those things, what are these signs from nature trying To tell us about the will of the Divine and and then thinking about what would be the best behavior and the best action to take in order to cultivate the best outcome, not just for yourself, but ultimately for your synergistic relationship with nature. So those things, I think, are really interesting, and in this sense, the ancient Romans share many parallels with a lot of indigenous cultures, and having seen the powerful effects of what nature can do and how you can respond to it and nurture it and care for nature around you, that is something that has a really strong and powerful force which we could harness today, I think, in a much more robust way. One of the things I was thinking about when researching for this topic was the other sort of big misconception that people often bring to the table when I say, Oh, I’m an ancient historian of ancient Rome. And the first thing. A lot of people will say, as a bit of a joke, but with a relative undercurrent of seriousness, is oh well, they just copied everything from the Greeks, and they just stole stuff.

Dr Rad 15:11
Wait, you mean they didn’t,

Dr G 15:15
I mean, the thing is that Rome, as it develops, does really encourage syncretism over time. They are not an exclusive kind of people when it comes to their belief systems. They’re very open minded in this respect. If they come across a group of people practicing something, they are more likely to welcome it into their own space and to incorporate it into their own culture, maybe with some little changes that make sense for them, but they certainly don’t dismiss other people’s gods or other people’s practices. They’re more inclined to bring in rather than push out. So in this sense, by the time we get to our written sources for what ancient Rome is like, the Greek influence has already been there for centuries, and so then it gets very hard to disentangle, because they’ve done a lot of work to be like Jupiter is a bit like Zeus, and Aphrodite is a bit like Venus, and they’ve created and established all of these relational parallels, not like the other Yeah, they’ve done so much work to be like, yes, we can bring it all together that people are like, Oh, well, the Greeks were earlier in history, and therefore the Greeks did it first, and then the Romans were just like,

Dr Rad 16:37
but as you say, you’re totally right, particularly When we’ve been looking at this earlier period for so long, whilst Absolutely, there’s a Greek influence, and that’s also not just because the Greeks literally exists earlier, but as we’ve talked about, the Greeks are in Italy.

Dr G 16:53
They have colonized South Italy. They are in Sicily. They are in Campania. They are in Puglia. The Greeks, you can’t avoid the Greeks. They’re already they’ve already turned up, and they’ve already been like, this place is also ours. And the people who are indigenous to Italy are like,

Dr Rad 17:12
okay, and that’s exactly it. So it would make sense that when the Romans are presumably engaged in trading and coming into contact with these people that they are, of course, exposed to their beliefs, and vice versa, and it’s really hard to trace that exact process, as you said. I mean, even if we turn to Greek sources, we don’t have the complete story of exactly how those interactions go, particularly really early on, certainly not ones that we would stake our lives on, or anything like that. So we do have that. So of course, the Romans have probably incorporated that into their own system. But we absolutely have come across stuff that is decidedly italic and doesn’t come from the Greeks, particularly from these earlier cultures. Because, of course, we’ve got all these little italic cultures, the ones that the Romans keep fighting. So they’ve obviously got the Latins, who they presumably have things in common with, like their language and certain structures that they have in their society, because they’re really, really close to each other. But there are all these other people, the ones that the Romans keep fighting, or having alliances with or fighting again. They also have their own religious beliefs, and it can be hard to trace those too, because they get subsumed by Rome itself. And then, of course, we’ve got the Etruscans to the north, yeah. And we know that a lot of their religious practices and stuff are influenced by the Etruscans, as far as we can tell, including probably augury, which you were just talking about, yeah, definitely.

Dr G 18:41
So we’ve got very few sources actually to help us out that that sort of sit within the realm of sort of written evidence. So it gets quite tricky, but we do have a few things. One of them is Etruscan. So we have a piece of evidence that is called the liber lintius, oh yeah, linen book. And this is an Etruscan piece of evidence, written in Etruscan and dates to the third or second centuries BCE. So even an Etruscan piece of evidence, we’re not talking about it being an archaic piece of evidence, it still sits firmly within Rome’s written historical record, but it does detail things that we think come from earlier periods of Etruscan history, and it talks about a duality of gods. There’s a God of lightness and a god of darkness. This is a concept that we don’t necessarily see come through in later religious practice and details of offerings being made to these gods, things that include roasted barley and oil and fire as a medium for ritual practice, all of which pretty standard in terms of the ancient world and in terms of Italy. Okay, and the other big piece of evidence that we have, it’s a much smaller piece of evidence in comparison, but it’s called the Iguvine tablets.

Dr Rad 20:09
And, oh yes, I did come across these. These are written in ancient Umbrian

Dr G 20:15
so the umbrians are a bit further south and east, and the Etruscans are a bit further north and west, and these two influences give us a sense that there is something different going on in Italy, as opposed to elsewhere. So these tablets include references to a number of Gods which seem to then end up having some parallels with Roman gods. There’s a reference to a god called Iuve which seems to be similar to Jupiter, Marte, a reference to Mars and Vufiune, a reference that ends up being to Quirinus, we think. But we also have animal sacrifice described there, which was not true in the Etruscan evidence, libations being made of both wine and Mead and then some practices also associated with augury. So this idea of watching birds seems to be quite prevalent throughout the Italian peninsula, and whether it came from the Etruscans first, or whether it sort of developed sui generis throughout this period of the archaic Italian epoch, hard to know. But it doesn’t seem like something that has come from somewhere else. It seems very much about what is happening here, and how can we make meaningful understanding of it within this context.

Dr Rad 21:43
Yeah, and we’ve also got things like tombs, which can give a little bit of light. I mean, unfortunately there’s not when you’re talking about tombs, if you’re talking about artwork and things that have been left behind, and the way that bodies have been buried, it’s obviously highly open to interpretation. We don’t have written explanations of what these things mean. But certainly, if we’re going way, way back into the pre regal slash regal period, because we’re not exactly sure when there were kings of Rome, or even if there were kings of Rome. I mean, no, I shouldn’t say that. I think there were.

Dr G 22:17
We wrote a whole book on the kings of Rome. They definitely existed.

Dr Rad 22:21
It’s written down. It must be true. I think we can safely say they were kings, but we don’t know exactly, you know, we can’t be 100% sure about exactly when they were, exactly who they were, and all of that kind of For more details, read our book, exactly, yes. But if we go like way back, there definitely are tombs in this region. We’ve got also tombs from, you know, the etrurian area, which, some of them are extremely lavish. They’re often called princely tombs. And that can tell us a little bit about, obviously, some sort of spirituality and belief systems. And the interesting thing is that, as we start to see, I think, less of these styles of burials, what is suggested to us, at least by the material record, is that we do start to see the erection of these quite monumental temples compared to what has gone before. And we can’t obviously be 100% sure why, but it’s theorized by one of the academics that I read that maybe it’s a shift in terms of the way that the elite in these societies are sort of competing in their displays of wealth and in an effort to obviously demonstrate their power in the community. Maybe previously, one of their ways of showing off was having these extremely lavish burials and tombs and that sort of thing. But as we shift into a different political scenario over the centuries, it becomes more an area of competition of what you can do for the community and how you can have a very physical presence of yourself and your family and also show your dedication to the gods a different way. And so we start to get more of these monumental temples being built. And in spite of the fact that the Romans have this very powerful story about Rome being razed to the ground during the Gallic sack in 390 we do actually have buildings that are referenced that clearly survived that. And a lot of these are obviously things that were pretty substantial, like temples. The most notable one that we’ve talked about a number of times, of course, is the temple of Castor and Pollux, which way back in the early republic, is something that is dedicated after the Roman victory over the Latin league in the Battle of Lake Regillus. And we do also have, in the accounts that we’ve been talking about, it sort of comes up from time to time. Also reference to these spaces which seem to exist, you know, cultic spaces where it’s not just the Romans, it’s something that’s used by the people of the area, and it seems to be where they come together, not necessarily for political reasons, but probably because, you know, socially and culturally, the. This is a cultic space that is important to all of them. So we’ve referenced there’s a particular space which the Etruscan cities and the Etruscan people seem to share. It’s often, I think, probably misrepresented in Livy as a place where they come together for political powerhouse and to plot the demise of the Romans.

Unknown Speaker 25:17
Well, we’re here, guys,

Dr Rad 25:21
but it’s actually probably more likely a cultic space where they come together, maybe for trade, but probably more religious rights and that sort of thing. And we’ve also made reference to spaces like the Temple of Diana, one at arikia oricia, depending on how you want to this was

Dr G 25:38
exactly the one I was going to mention. Now that you’ve brought up sacred space, well,

Dr Rad 25:42
I’ll let you take it over. Dr G, because I am no expert in this area.

Dr G 25:46
It’s not that I have that much to say about it, but Diana of Nemi is positioned within Aricia. And so we’re talking to the southeast of Rome, but we’re going into the Castelli Romani, so we have to hike up a hill a little bit. Your favorite people, the Tusculuns. They’re hanging out there as well. So the Latin people tend to gather in these sacred spaces, usually at particular times of the year, to perform specific rituals that are important to all of the peoples in the area. And it seems that these sorts of places are quite common. And people will travel around to these sacred areas, knowing that these rituals need to perform, be performed at certain times. And Diana of Nemi stands out to me because I made it my mission to find her sacred spot. Various travels to Rome. The local people do not want to tell you the location, but with a little bit of wandering around in the area, you can find the remains of one of her later temples in that area, and there are still people who offer modern ritual offerings into that space, which I think is a beautiful sense of cultural continuity. Oh,

Dr G 27:28
thinking about other evidence that might help us understand archaic religion in this area, the one thing that we do have that stands out as being very specific and different from things like a Greek influence, are the votive offerings that have remained. So we’re quite lucky to have a number of ceramic remains. These votive offerings are really specific to Italy. We don’t tend to see them elsewhere, they’re often in the shape of body parts or internal organs, which are, how did they know? How did they know? Let’s not ask too many questions about that.

Dr Rad 28:14
I hate to spoil it for you. Dr G, but actually what you found is the ancient remains of the Roman version of operation

Dr G 28:22
at all. Everybody was into that game. Everyone had a different addition. So these votive offerings seem to be particularly body parts, often hands, feet, but also organs, and sometimes depictions of swaddled babies. Is the other really common one, and we think that these votive offerings are probably elite offerings, rather than from everyday people, and partly that’s because they’ve been designed to symbolize the object, whereas we think a lot of the votive offerings probably would have been actual objects. So things like an offering of food, an offering of hair, a piece of clothing, a tool doesn’t survive. Yeah, the sorts of things that are probably not going to make it through in the archeological record, just because they’re natural materials, conditions have to be so specific to preserve those for a long period of time, whereas the beauty of ceramic is that it toughens up, it holds up shape, and 1000s of years later can be like, Aha, I found a foot. So we don’t really know what these votive offerings are doing, necessarily. They they seem to be some sort of personal conversation between the offerer and the divine. But what that practice meant, what people might have thought while they were doing it, these are the things that still and probably will always elude us, because we simply don’t have this kind of source material that would. Get inside somebody’s head for things like that, but there’s enough of them that we’re like something’s going on here.

Dr Rad 30:06
Dear Marcia, today I went to the shrine and left a little statue of my foot. Yeah, I’ll leave the guards to decide what that means exactly. I must admit, whenever I’ve thought about votive offerings, because you say it’s not like this is an uncommon practice in many ancient cultures to make these sorts of offerings. I’ve always wondered if it’s some sort of connection to someone suffering in that part of the body, or maybe a relative is suffering in that part of the body, or that part of the body symbolizes something to do with something that’s going on in their life, and that’s what’s sort of going on in this and this is something I think that highlights, perhaps something that probably is true in terms of the way we understand religion, as far as we can tell, in the archaic Roman period. And to be honest, beyond the Archaic period. Roman religion doesn’t exactly offer ethical guidelines in the sense of in the way that someone who comes from a different kind of religious tradition would perhaps understand it, you absolutely have lots of rules and lots of things that are really important in terms of how you live your life. It tells us a lot about cultural taboos. So there are rules and things like that, but it’s not quite the same as, like an ethical code, that this is how you personally need to live your life. Would you agree with that?

Dr G 31:34
Yeah, definitely. And I think for the Romans, that sort of idea of an ethical guideline comes far more through their legal system than it would through their relationship with the gods. This is more a system of acknowledgement that there are greater beings and greater forces at play. And can you establish a strong enough reciprocal relationship that things will work in your favor when push comes to shove and to circle back to this idea that the Romans didn’t care about the gods at all, very, just very pragmatic people just waiting for Christianity to come

Dr Rad 32:12
and get them. They just care about cement and the army. Yeah, as

Dr G 32:17
long as I can build this bridge and hit somebody with my sword, I’m a happy camper. Exactly nothing else matters. Cicero does talk a lot about religion. He wrote a number of books, many things. Thanks Cicero. Whether you love him or whether you think he’s annoying, doesn’t really matter. He does leave us a lot of information that has stood the test of time. And he tells us, in his De natura deorum, On the nature of the gods, that most thinkers have affirmed that the gods exist most and that there are a few outliers, a few who are like not sure, and some who are strongly there are no gods, but the bulk of people, in Cicero’s view, believe in the divine existence. And it’s more a matter of the quibbles about how divinity is having an effect in the world around them, and that is another matter entirely. So yeah, but from the Roman perspective, this starts to firm up as we get more into the historical period, it firms up into a set of behaviors and ritual practices that define the Roman calendar. So the way that they think about time is very much embedded with how they think about the gods and what things need to be done when, whether it’s a matter of preparing for something that’s going to happen in the future. And the gods are also participants in those kinds of actions. And we get to a point where it becomes so formalized that we get situations like we get with the Vestal virgins, where they must be able to speak without impediment, because every word that they say in a ritual practice needs to be said perfectly to align with the needs of the gods in order to ensure the right relationship. So the Romans become more fixated, I would say, with their ritual practices and their relationship with the gods over time, rather than

Dr Rad 34:21
less well, I think it goes back to what we were actually talking about in a narrative episode the other day, which is the other day. Look at me in the same outfit, trying to pretend like we’ve had recorded on two separate days when we were talking earlier today, actually in a narrative episode, we were talking about the fact that we do have these narrative histories. We have the annalist tradition, and we have narrative histories which start to develop as we get into sort of the mid to late Republic. And we’ve also got things like family histories, which actually can tell us things about religion. If you look at someone like Julius Caesar claiming that Venus is his home girl, etc. There are obviously connections between particular families and particular cults and religious practices and that sort of thing, particularly if we’re talking about the elites who we can mostly track in the written sources. But in this late Republican period, when there’s so much conflict, where it obviously seems like things are somewhat coming apart at the seams, and then we have this transition into empire. There is this renewed fascination for the Romans themselves in understanding their ancient past. And so we do also get these records from people who are now referenced as the antiquarians, who are interested into looking into the, I suppose, kind of the minuci in a way, although they give us some really important evidence, but things like explaining place names, explaining practices, explaining why Romans do certain things the way that they do. And we do, obviously get some of our information about religion and cults, and therefore, from these sorts of people. And I think that ties into like Cicero, is very much a part of that time period where there’s that interest in figuring out who they are, what they are, and looking back to their past in particular, to try and understand their own history and practices as well as possible.

Dr G 36:15
Yeah, definitely. And it becomes a matter of formality. It’s ingrained in everyday life. So you talked about the lares, there’s these family gods. So there is a domestic aspect to cult that develops, and probably that, I would say, probably always existed, regardless of what time period we’re in, the way that people personally venerate gods, and then we have things that are much more sort of state run, where it’s like this ritual is happening on behalf of all of the people, and Rome is broken up into a whole bunch of priesthoods by the time we sort of start to get into the mid Republic. And we think some of these priests definitely pre date the Regal period, at least, augurs seem to be crucial to the foundation story of Rome. And so this idea that we’re observing birds comes through the whole time, and augury doesn’t disappear as Roman history progresses. It goes right up to the part where what I think it’s Honorius does something terrible to his chickens. Remember that let’s not talk about when we get into that period of Roman history, many decades from now, but the idea that the birds play a really important role, hugely significant. They end up keeping chickens in order to observe them. Do they eat the food? Do they not eat the food? All of this is very important, but there are priests for just about everything. We think the flamins, of which there are 15, three major flamens, 12 Minor flamens, we think they’re very early in terms of priesthood, and they’re related to the fundamental gods, the Flamen Dialis, connected with Jupiter, the Flamen Martialus, connected with Mars. And the Flamen Quirinalis, relating to Quirinus, a God which is also connected with Romulus. These are really early priests, and they seem to have a lot of restrictions placed upon them. At least the major flamens do in terms of what they’re allowed to wear, where they’re allowed to go, what sort of actions they’re able to participate in. And many of them come in a set, because not only do they run a priesthood specifically related to a particular God, but their wife is also a sacred Priestess of the same God, and they operate as a pair. And if one of them dies, you could get a whole new set one. Can’t just

Dr Rad 38:55
Collect all five!

Dr G 38:56
You can’t just have one. You gotta have two. Well, and this is definitely

Dr Rad 38:57
something interesting to talk about with the interesting to talk about with the priesthoods, because we can’t exactly pinpoint all the details about where these priesthoods come from and exactly when they become in, you know, more and more influential in Roman society. But something that’s interesting, which I hadn’t really thought about, because we, we do have references, obviously, to people who are acting in in certain priesthoods in our narrative accounts, because sometimes, obviously, they intersect, obviously, when we’re talking about those major flamins That you were talking about, or flamines, I don’t know how to say the plural out loud,

Dr G 39:36
Flamines is correct.

Dr Rad 39:37
It sounds like some sort of fancy dessert, you know, like flamines banana

Dr G 39:42
Delicious.

Dr Rad 39:43
They are patricians, which, given all the stuff that we’ve been talking about with this narrative that we’re fed, that very early on in the early republic, there seems to be this real concern by the patrician class, who we. Don’t know who they are. We don’t know where they came from. We’re not even entirely sure if they existed straight away or something that had developed over time. But let’s go with the narrative. Just to keep things relatively simple, they apparently have this real concern about dominating the knowledge about sacred law, sacred practices, and there’s this real impression that things would be sullied somehow if plebeians had access to these roles. And so it’s probably, perhaps no surprise that these major flaminais from patrician background traditionally, and something I hadn’t really thought about is the fact that obviously Rome is all about electing magistrates. They serve their period, and then they move on. You can serve more than once, but you still have to be re elected and that sort of thing. But priests are appointed for life, unless something untoward happens.

Dr G 40:57
Something untoward, yeah. So there is a sense that within the context of the elite of Rome, the patricians, as they like to call themselves, perhaps they’re hard to know it’s one of those chicken or the egg scenarios, like, is it the fact that some people are in charge of these ritual practices and have been given this responsibility, which leads to them becoming focal points for the development of an elite class, or is it the case that these families, through virtue of having greater power from a physical sense, were able to co opt that power into a soft power that was the divine understanding and the ritual knowledge, and it might be a little bit of both. It’s difficult to note, but certainly, once we have this idea that Rome has a set of priesthoods and that there is a way of honoring the gods that is good and appropriate for Rome as a whole, and that’s the point where we start to see a real consolidation of secret knowledge. Because, yes, priests don’t want to have that stuff written down. Or if they do write it down, like we we get sometimes in stories of the early King Numa, if they do write it down, they then immediately hide them somewhere so no one can look at it except for them.

Dr Rad 42:27
It’s a secret clubhouse. You’ve got to have the password.

Dr G 42:30
Yeah, you are not allowed in the tree house.

Dr Rad 42:34
But the thing I’d never realized before, because as I say, it’s not really a thing like I know obviously how important religion is, because it comes into our accounts all accounts all the time in terms of the Romans being out of kilter with the gods or being blessed by the gods. It’s all about maintaining that relationship, and this is where, obviously priests would play a really important role. Because whilst Roman religion might not provide like an ethical code of conduct in the way that say, maybe Abrahamic kind of religions do. It does have those rules, and it’s almost like the Public Religion, the kind of state religion it is about like the joint wellness of the community and observing what needs to be observed in order to maintain peace and prosperity, which makes total sense when you think about it, working as a community to make sure that you all benefit from a state. And if something goes wrong, well, you know you need to get to the bottom of that and fix the relationship so that things prosper again.

Dr G 43:37
And at the root of that is a real fundamental truth, which is that natural signs are telling us things. Yes, so if we look at the most fundamental and earliest understanding of augury, bird movement in the sky is telling us something absolutely and I, like you, am a city girl, I could not tell you what the birds might be trying to tell me. But if we think about people who are less certified than ourselves, much more ancient, what are the things that they have to hold on to in terms of their understanding of the natural world? One of these things that can reliably be seen and then hopefully reliably interpreted, is the movement of various animals, including birds. I would say birds would not be the only animals that you’d be interested in observing, for sure, but they’re showing you something very clear. They do different things at different times of the year. They can be a good indication of what is happening seasonally, or what is about to happen seasonally, in the same way that observing the trees could be very useful as well. So keeping in touch with the landscape, being aware of river systems, the Tiber floods all the time, but not without a pattern. So when the snow melts further up. And then you get in, or you get a high flow of rain. In another part of Italy, you’re going to have a flood with the Tiber. And if you’ve got somebody who is able to sort of pick out the signs around that, start to maybe make some judgment calls ahead of time about when might be important to move a little bit further away from the edge of that river. All of those things become really important. We know that the forum consistently flooded for centuries, and it’s very low lying, and it’s only after they do some dramatic earthworks that they’re able sort of to minimize the flooding that happens to the forum, which is kind of incredible because it’s their it’s their meeting place, like, let’s just go down the hill.

Dr Rad 45:45
Any other Wellingtons on? Not looking good out there today. Yeah, I can’t believe we’ve

Dr G 45:49
got another meeting and all this mud.

Dr Rad 45:52
Damn Wellingtons really don’t match my toga.

Dr G 45:55
Why can’t we do it on a hill? For a change? We’ll have none of that around here, Valley or bust. But all of these things mean that as we get further and further into the modern world, we feel more and more removed from these kinds of observations. The Tiber still floods, but because the walls have been built around the Tiber to prevent the flood from having a destructive capacity, by and large, you notice the river rising, but you don’t notice the effects of a flood. Yeah, things like that change the way you engage with a landscape. The same sort of thing as a comparison would be the flooding of the Nile and fundamental to ancient Egyptian way of life and understanding of the crop cycle. And yet that river system has been completely altered by modern technology to the point where it’s no longer recognizable as a life giving River in the way that it would have been to the ancient Egyptians.

Dr Rad 46:50
Yeah, and I’d say there’s a certain logic to me. I mean, we were joking about the fact that, oh, the Romans aren’t really these really pragmatic people, but in a way, it is pragmatic. It is completely logical to pay attention to the world around you and the well being of the planet that you depend on. And if something really unusual happens, like a really crazy storm, happens in a way that doesn’t normally happen, or, as you say, something’s flooding at a time it doesn’t normally flood, you actually stop and pay attention to it and think, why is that happening, and what can we do to fix it, rather than just ignoring it or claiming it’s some sort of government conspiracy. That’s illogical, that’s dumb. Where’s my insurance? Yeah, if you have bushfires happening abnormal amounts of times. If you have a number of record days hitting massively high temperatures in a country, if you have animals dropping dead from the sky in huge numbers, if you have fish that are dying in rivers that they would not normally die in en mass, then yes, you should be paying attention to that and trying to do something about that as a community. That’s just logical, the way that we live our lives, not logical because we actually know exactly what’s happening. We have exactly the tools we need to fix it, and yet not happening, having to fight these ridiculous battles. But anyway, I’m getting sidetracked to go back to the priests, the Roman priests. One thing I hadn’t realized, and this obviously suggests the very archaic nature of certain aspects of Roman religion. I have to admit, I always thought it was kind of funny that Roman priests were called flamen. Again, it sounds kind of disgusting. It sounds kind of like a side effect of a disease that you might get like, oh, just get so much flamen. And I never really understood why Roman priests had that title, and I don’t think I can offer a full explanation of it, but it was really interesting that one of the academics I suggested that I read, suggested that it comes from the Hindu priestly title of Brahman, which would obviously take it way back, in terms of Going right back to very antique times. And also, similarly, when we think about Quirinus. So Quirinus being like an embodiment of, you know, Romulus, in a way, and having associations, and therefore being a very specifically Roman God, not something stolen from the Greeks, but the idea that that like the sort of stem of that name, the Quir- bit of the of the Latin might sort of come from a Sanskrit word, again, making it seem really, really ancient, and maybe being something that was brought to the area by people who sort of moved in there. I mean, that makes it even more archaic than I could possibly have imagined, if it’s true? Obviously, this is all speculative.

Dr G 49:43
But well, these are the things I mean, the Indo-European language branches. They’re all really interesting. The one that seems to struggle to fit into them is the Etruscan and aside from that, even there, there are some sort of crossover. Over, but we do get a sense that there are at least some connections to a broader east to west cultural movement. And it’s happening really gradually, it seems. But it does end up definitely in Italy, and we get some connections also with the idea of fire. And I can’t remember the root term for that right now, but that concept of fire in the Sanskrit coming across, gradually hitting Greece, getting to Italy, and then we get things like Hestia in Greek and Vesta in the Latin, yeah. And even though those two goddesses are both virginal and are both associated with the hearth fire, there’s also lots of differences between how the ritual practice associated with the two goddesses in the different cultures plays out. So there’s a sense in which we might be looking at sort of an independent, sort of flourishing of ideas in two different locations. But the root language behind both is similar. The other god, which seems to be distinctly Roman, is Janus, the two faced God,

Dr Rad 51:23
yeah. We’re in the month of January at the time of recording.

Dr G 51:25
At the time of recording, we are in Janice’s special time.

Dr Rad 51:29
We are, hey, Janice

Dr G 51:32
and I do like that. There are little moments that come through for us where we’re like we we can’t quite pair Janus up to anything else, and we’re like, Aha, this might be a hint, whereas, definitely there seems to be ideas about Gods and ideas about their areas of influence, which seem to have gradually moved east to West. And so things like Apollo and Artemis become Apollo and Diana, that seems to be something that has come across. And the Etruscans have a pairing that is very similar, although slightly different in name, and we see this with also things like Dionysus and Bacchus. And it’s like you look at those two words, they don’t look anything alike, but there is a real overlap in sort of how they end up being even if they started off being slightly different, they end up becoming quite similar over time.

Dr Rad 52:32
So, and let’s face it’s not like Dionysus was something that the Greeks invented, like, like, he’s definitely considered to be a god that migrated from elsewhere, exactly.

Dr G 52:41
And then we’ve got the idea that Rome does seek out foreign gods as well. When we get further into the historical record in the mid and late Republic, they’re encouraging and sometimes taking foreign gods. I mean, like you see that sacred rock you’ve got that represents that particular goddess, Cybele, come with me, get in this boat. We’re heading to Rome. So they do also have moments where they’re like, We don’t have enough gods to deal with the specific issues that we’ve got right now. The ones that we’ve got are not enough.

Dr Rad 53:15
The world is not enough. Yeah,

Dr G 53:16
expand the Pantheon. Expand.

Dr Rad 53:20
It’s so funny, isn’t it, that when we actually look at Rome’s history, particularly the period that we’ve been looking at, as you say, we’ve not that long ago, dealt with the Romans, inviting Juno to come with them from they come to them, but they also, even though they promised her lots of things, they’re also like, we’re not going to put your temple inside the pomerium. We don’t trust you yet, the way that they do these sorts of things, it does actually kind of go against that popular image that we have of Rome, of being a representative of very intolerant imperialism, and understandably so, in the sense that there are a few notable exceptions to the embracing attitude of the Romans. But I don’t think that people know exactly how that particular relationship with notably, say, Judaism and Christianity, have actually evolved from that early period into when the Romans obviously themselves start becoming more Christian and eventually officially adopt Christianity as a state religion, because it is that complex relationship between the communal well being being tied to religious well being and political well being, like you can’t separate those things, and that’s partly why we do have these notable clashes between People of certain faiths and the Romans, it’s not just, oh, they don’t like your religion and they don’t understand it. It’s very different, obviously, but there are efforts made to under to have some sort of a relationship with obviously, Jewish people in Rome. It doesn’t go well overall. But there are efforts. It’s made. But yeah, it’s that complex overlap of the politics of the situation, the religion of the situation, and how they all feed in together, on top of which just probably the very particular people that are alive at that moment, making those decisions, which I think lead to the combustive situations that we get. I think

Dr G 55:20
there’s also a bigger systemic matter at plays, because, if we’re thinking about because we’ve been talking predominantly about sort of archaic and also touching on some Republican ideas about Roman beliefs, and Cicero falls into that category as well. But I think we’re dealing with a very, very different ball game when we get into the idea of the imperial period of Rome, totally, yeah. And we’ve moved into the idea of the Imperial cult, and that produces a top down Roman hierarchy, yeah, of this is how it is, yeah. And if you don’t like how it is, we’re gonna, we’re gonna have some problems.

Dr Rad 55:59
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. No, you’re right. It is. It is. It is completely different. But I do want to take you back to the beginning, Dr G, because I do have some questions. If we’re talking about priests and the people who are very significant in early Roman religion, we actually can’t avoid talking about the Roman kings and also this very shady character of the Rex sacrificulus, and also, eventually the Pontifex Maximus, a part of Roman religion that obviously still has something of a legacy to this day, because that is the title of the Pope lives in the Vatican.

Dr G 56:38
Hello, Mr. Pope. He has a long and storied history, the Rex sacroficulus, yeah, and I sort of a parallel to that. Might be the Rex sacrorum as well. So there seems to be a priest that is aligned with a specific building called the Regia, which is also got all of this monarchical connotation about it, this weird, little trapezoidal building that is on the Via Sacra, right near vesta’s Temple and the rec sacrificius hangs out in this building. We’re not really sure what he’s up to, necessarily most of the time, but there does seem to be a sense in which this priest functions as a sacrificial victim, or a figure in which you can place the idea of communal pollution upon, and then they will carry that pollution away from Rome. So it’s not necessarily a huge honor to become the wrecked sacrificial list, because you often will end up dead at some point.

Dr Rad 57:41
Sounds pretty gross. It’s part of the deal gotta be done. Someone’s got to do it. Someone’s got to take one for the team.

Dr G 57:47
Yeah. In the same way that a lot of the behaviors and ritual practices are designed for the right relationship with the gods, the Romans also have this conception of pollution being quite an issue, which is fair enough, because if you don’t look after the mess, it leads to disease outbreak and all sorts of things. And so that really dictates, like, where you can place dead bodies. This is why they’ve got to be placed outside the pomerium. All of these things make sense from a practical measure, but also from a divine one, ultimately, and the rec sort of fits into that category. Sometimes somebody comes into that role, and they’re not necessarily a high level, elite person, but what their job is is to live a really rich life like a king, and they’re treated as such for the time that they’re in office, right up until the point where it’s time for their role to

Dr Rad 58:44
come to an end. Well, that’s kind of what the name implies. Isn’t it like the sacrificial King, the

Dr G 58:48
sacrificial King, and I kind of love this. This is something that fades out of Roman practice at a certain point

Dr Rad 58:55
well, and it’s something the link to the kings, obviously, is that it’s thought that this is something that comes into being when the Kings go,

Dr G 59:01
right, yeah. So the king has a whole bunch of priestly functions. And so if we think about Romulus, he was an augur king. He was able to read the signs, and he was also somebody who ruled, and as they got further into the king,

Dr Rad 59:16
so he says, I don’t know if Remus would agree with you on that one.

Dr G 59:20
Remus himself may also have been an auger king, but only for like, one day. Yeah, it did not work out for him. But Romulus certainly has this idea like associated with him, of being able to read the signs of the birds and to be able to rule that flows on to NUMA as well, to a certain extent, because he hangs out with the augurs as part of the process of deciding whether he’ll take on the kingship. So he becomes a bit of an auger king as well. But that concept fades out, and we then start to see a split between augurs and people who rule. So instead of having all of the powers enmeshed in one single person, they tend to split them up and. And so when the kings are eventually expelled from Rome, there is a whole bunch of ideas around priestly things that are still embedded in the concept of the king, even though they’ve tried to split them up a little bit. And this seems to be where figures like the rax Rex, sacrificulus and the Rex sacrorum, who may or may not be the same person, may or

Dr Rad 1:00:24
may very shady characters.

Dr G 1:00:26
We really don’t know a lot about them. They’re both really fascinating, but they could be the same figure, we’re not sure. Certainly, they’re both connected with the Regia, and they sit underneath the Pontifex Maximus, and I kind of love the Pontifex Maximus. What a dude. We need, a man in charge of priests.

Dr Rad 1:00:47
Yeah. I mean, this is such an interesting idea, because eventually, and we’re not going to go into this, but eventually, that’s also something that Augustus will take on, as one of his many things that he takes on.

Dr G 1:00:59
Well, he has to, because Caesar was Pontifex Maximus, of course.

Dr Rad 1:01:05
So yeah, it’s really it’s interesting that it remains significant, but obviously I feel like the nature of it changes a bit. But certainly the Pontifex Maxis is someone we should talk about, especially because I’m hoping you’ll also use this as a bit of a segue to talk about another important Priestly College, which is, of course, the

Dr G 1:01:23
vestals Don’t mind if I do. So we’re not sure why the Pontifex Maximus becomes so important, like, by the time we get to Augustus, he makes a big deal about it, yeah, and it seems to be a big deal, but we’re not sure why. Over time it’s become such a big deal because the pontifices are a college, yeah? And then there’s one pontificate, there’s the pontificate, Pontifex Maximus

Dr Rad 1:01:48
One ring to rule them all!

Dr G 1:01:49
exactly, exactly, but he’s just the chief of the college. But it seems that as Rome’s religious practice develops, that college becomes in charge of other colleges, right? So they’re a hierarchy of sorts develops.

Dr Rad 1:02:04
And so isn’t the name something to do with bridges? Yes, yes.

Dr G 1:02:08
Very important. A Pont and a Pontifex, yeah, and yes, nobody agrees about that either, but it is a possible etymological connection that they’re interested in bridges. And of course, bridges are very important, because how do you cross

Dr Rad 1:02:22
a river? I again, it’s something I never think about, and I should think about more. Yeah, quite important.

Dr G 1:02:28
Yeah. And bridges are hard to make. I would not want to have to try and make a bridge.

Dr Rad 1:02:33
They bring people together, just like a lot of these religious practices that we’re talking about in the Archaic period, it’s about the community.

Dr G 1:02:40
Man, just build a bridge and get over it exactly. So the Pontifex ends up being in charge of other priests, in addition to having their own Priestly College, which is in itself quite interesting. But then obviously, as we get further along, the pontefx Maximus is seen as the chief of all of the priests. Essentially his name implies, yes, well, but why wouldn’t there be a Flamen Maximus,

Dr Rad 1:03:05
you tell me? Dr, G, you tell me. Well,

Dr G 1:03:07
yeah, that’s the thing. And it’s like, because we do have other colleges and we’ve got the augers, why isn’t there an auger? Maximus? Maybe there is. And so this is the thing we’re like, why is this guy the head of all of them ultimately, does he become that that kind of sitting above them all, when each of the colleges will have their own chief priest within it? So even the vestals have their own chief Vestal, absolutely so. But she’s not in charge of everybody.

Dr Rad 1:03:36
Gotta have a head nun. How do you have the sound of music without a head nun? I’m waiting for the Vestal version of that story.

Dr G 1:03:44
So the Pontifex Maximus ends up being in charge of the Pontifical college. And the pontificate seem to be a pretty politicized priesthood by the time we get into the historical record, and their job seems to be overseeing other priesthoods by and large and making sure everything is running correctly. How bureaucratic? Yeah, like the flamens sit underneath them, the arval Brethren sit underneath them.

Dr Rad 1:04:10
Yes, and they’re potentially very ancient too. Yes, the

Dr G 1:04:13
vestals sit underneath them, although I don’t know that I have much to say about the Arval Brethren at this time, but certainly the vestals run into bureaucratic issues, really, that involve the pontificate

Dr Rad 1:04:26
like you mean burying them alive? No, the paperwork involved. My God, it’s just so frustrating when they interfere with our business. Another vessel has been smiling too much. Does she understand the forms I need to fill out. That’s right, Louise,

Dr G 1:04:43
gonna have to get out my whip and my bed sheet. It’s really annoying.

Dr Rad 1:04:47
The vestals are meant to be very ancient, though, right? I mean, as far as we could tell, the Vestals are meant to be

Dr G 1:04:51
very ancient. The vessels are very ancient, yes, yeah. Their Temple is to is one of the places in Rome that’s considered the center. Of the universe. The other is the Umbilicus. But let’s not muddy the waters too much. Both are circles. It’s fine. But yes, the vessels are considered very ancient, very attached to the location, and they end up very

Dr Rad 1:05:16
Roman, even though they come from elsewhere, seemingly according to the myth.

Dr G 1:05:20
Well, it’s like Each place has its own Vestal group. So each Vestal group becomes very specific to the place where it is located, right? And this is true, I think, for most of the italic peoples, and maybe Rome is the greatest expression of it, in the sense that right. They’re like, this is the landscape in which meaning is possible for us in terms of our relationship with the gods. But if you go across the road and 50 kilometers down the street and you talk to the people there, they’d be like, this is the place where our relationship with the gods is the most important thing. So the location is relative, and so you then get local specificity as a result of that. So Roman vestals are not necessarily completely similar to the vestals of Aricia or other

Dr Rad 1:06:10
places, but as Rome itself becomes more important and gains control over these other places, it allows, I suppose, their Vestal cult to be put into more prominence in historical record and to maybe be made more meaning.

Dr G 1:06:25
Yeah, definitely, yeah. You know, doesn’t ever get over talking about itself.

Dr Rad 1:06:30
So it’s not like they can let me tell you about what they’ve been up to exactly.

Dr G 1:06:36
So even if other places are engaging in similar religious practices, and we have this idea of Romanization that is happening as the Empire expands and expands. People in those different locations may or may not have festivals, but also their practices may or may not be mirrored within what is happening at Rome, because how would they know? You’d really have to be in touch with somebody specific to find out.

Dr Rad 1:07:03
Smoke signals, get it,

Dr G 1:07:08
send the sacred fire.

Dr Rad 1:07:10
For those are not in the know, Vesta is represented by flames, like a lady.

Dr G 1:07:15
Gotta watch the fire. The vest will sit under the Ponte, facts, Maximus, and when something goes wrong, from a row perspective, it’s the Pontifex Maximus that conducts and leads the investigation into what might have happened with the vestals. And we have to assume, although we don’t have heaps of great evidence for it, that if something similar happened in other colleges that sat underneath the remit of the pontificate, they would also investigate that. And I’m not going to make any claims on that front, because that’s not what I’ve specialized in my study, and I don’t know the answers to any questions anyone might have about that.

Dr Rad 1:07:54
Yeah, it’s really fascinating, in such a patriarchal society as Rome, that there is a Priestly College that is female only, even though they still have this man technically sitting above them and obviously monitoring their behavior, etc,

Dr G 1:08:12
yeah, and for the most part, that wouldn’t necessarily be something that played out in any way in your day to day life.

Dr Rad 1:08:18
Exactly so too much flame watching. What can I say?

Dr G 1:08:22
Keep your eyes on the prize.

Dr Rad 1:08:24
Now, something I thought that might be interesting to maybe wrap up with is to maybe go back to this question of the Lares is because I think we’ve kind of established that when we’re talking about this Archaic period, whilst we can’t know for certain what was going through people’s minds, what we can say is that it’s definitely stems from this need for the community to be safe and protected. That’s what these practices are about. And as the Rome, as Rome, develops as a as an institution, as a government, as a political entity, it becomes more of this, like Public Religion, not just beliefs that are common to those people, but we do have this aspect, which we’ve talked about, where there is a level of personal religion, not in the way, again, that People of certain cultural backgrounds will imagine where you’re praying and having, like, a personal relationship with God. But this is where I want to come back to the lares, maybe, to sort of wrap up on, because the Romans themselves didn’t actually really know where the lares came from, and they do seem to be something very present, very important to the Romans.

Dr G 1:09:44
Hmm, definitely. I mean, so we have this sense of like maybe there. I tend to think about it as being sort of split between there being sort of the state apparatus, and then there’s the sort of private veneration. And. And people will have their beliefs regardless of what is happening at the top. So that’s true. Yeah, as we increasingly get into Rome’s historical period, the mid and late Republic, we’ve got a really formalized, public religious setup. There are priesthoods. People get co opted into priesthoods. They hold those priesthoods for life. They have particular sway over certain things. But if you are, let’s see what would be a good name, Lucius. If you’re Lucius, Lucius the Roman, let’s say you’re a butcher. It’s, you know, it’s all fun and games for the fancy highfalutin people to wander around and be like today is the is nefas and there shall be no business people still got to eat. What are you going to do? You’re a butcher, things like that. Maybe there is space always for the personal as well as the public. And I think this is probably where the idea of lares come into it, because nobody can tell you how you pray to your household gods. They’re yours. And you can go and visit a friend, and you can see the way that they’ve set up their shrine to the lares in their house, and you’d be like, Oh, I love that style. And before you know it, it’s like, Instagram beige or whatever. And everybody set up their altar in the same way, and they’ve

Dr Rad 1:11:30
got their little avocado toast, yeah?

Dr G 1:11:32
And it’s like, Oh, I’ve seen, I’ve seen what Sue is up to with her lares. And I’m just thinking I might redesign our altar. So I think there is an element of like what matters to you personally in your own sense of spirituality, because I think all humans have that capacity for spiritual understanding of themselves within the context of the life that they live. And while you might be really on board with the public religious system that is operating around you. There might also be moments where you’re like, I just need to connect with some gods for my own personal benefit. And to what extent this might be connected with the idea of the ancestors, because we know that funerary masks have a big role to play in homes. And this may be true for non elites as much as elites in terms of like commemorating family. And there is that ancestor aspect to what the Romans are doing in their own households as well. And the lares might come into that a bit. And we do see a sense in which Augustus in particular, tries to co op the lares into a more public setting by coming up with the lares competales and setting up local public shrines to lares, exactly as a way of maybe formalizing some of his reconfiguration of the topographical space of Rome and being like, let’s reshape this into a different sort of neighborhood and give people something to hold on to from a collective experience in their own little suburb. And I’m not sure that that would ever have properly replaced people’s personal gods in their own house. The other thing to keep in mind is that every hearth fire is a place of Vesta, so you have the cult of Vesta, obviously, in the very fancy, round temple. And it’s everybody gets to see these priestesses, and they dress very differently from every other type of woman in Rome, so they’re instantly recognizable. And yet every hearth fire is a place where Vesta resides. So within the context of any home that has a fire, you already have a godly presence that can never be taken away unless that fire goes out. And if that fire did go out, well surely you would relight that fire, because the house fire is essential for your capacity to be able to eat good food. So there is always a divine presence in every household. Even if you were like, I only have one lares, whatever got into it, or even if you didn’t have an altar at all, there would still be something that people would immediately associate with, some sort of numinous presence in your household.

Dr Rad 1:14:20
Yeah, no, I just find it so fascinating that when the more I looked into these, because I’ve always known they existed, obviously, I’ve seen lots of larariums, you know, because I’ve been to places like Pompeii and Herculaneum, so I always just thought, yeah, household gods, whatever. But the more you look into it and start to try to unravel who the lares were, where they came from, in Roman religion, it’s such a mystery. The Romans themselves didn’t really know, as you say, like they were everywhere, and they certainly were important. But the Romans themselves didn’t seem to exactly know from whence they came, and there are definitely different opinions amongst the Romans about exactly who they are and how they should be interacted with. And as well as modern scholars about are they some sort of representative of like deceased peoples connected to your family, perhaps? Are they household gods? Are they protective spirits? Are they friendly spirits? What exactly are they? And I never really thought about the fact that the way that the lares commonly are represented visually, they actually don’t look anything like a Roman that you would admire as like a statesman or something like that. You know Roman statesmen, you think about those statues right, with the very impressive drapery being held into place and the very serious face old man wrinkled, Battle Scars everywhere, that’s what the Romans would tend to look at as a figure of admiration. The lares, the way that they tend to be represented, they’re associated with drinking, with feasting, with general good times. That’s partly kind of what the festival that grows up around them is associated with as well. They’re sort of neighborhood festivals you talked about the compitalia, and they’re youthful, and the way that they dress is also much more simple, much more dressed down, maybe even associated with the way that perhaps a slave or someone lower class might dress in, just like a simple tunic. It’s unusual, now that I think about it, that they’re kind of represented that way, when they’re so central to every Roman household look.

Dr G 1:16:21
Now, now I’m curious, because I wonder if the lares from elite households might be more fancily dress. I now have questions

Dr Rad 1:16:31
if you if I think about the very fancy larams from places in Pompeii, for example. Now I know the people who are living in the city of Pompeii are not the elite of the Roman world, like the elite Elite. They’re rich people living in a nice place, you know, a middle class and that sort of thing. But generally, I think the way that they’re represented is fairly consistent in the way that they are dressed. And I did not even know that there is actually a figure referenced in written material about like the mother of the lares, who is never represented visually, ever. And yet, there is apparently a mother, and again, we don’t know the exact relationship. Did she give birth to every single lares, ouch, by

Dr G 1:17:23
the too many. Everybody’s got a few Exactly.

Dr Rad 1:17:27
It’s like, what is it? But apparently she receives offerings from the Arval Brothers. So again, one of the, one of these interesting groups that we kind of you know that kind of date back as well. They have a really ancient hymn to the lares. And it does seem to me, to be honest, the more read about the lares, my personal view is that they are protective, and that’s why the Romans are personally invested in them, because they’re protective of spaces that they might have, like property and their homes and their businesses and that sort of thing. So that’s how I kind of look at them personally, even though not everybody would agree with me, but she also, I think, receives some sort of offering and rituals and but she’s never, I don’t think, ever named or visually represented, which I I had actually never heard of that before, until I started looking into this for this episode. Fascinating.

Dr G 1:18:16
Yeah, this is something I haven’t come across before, either.

Dr Rad 1:18:19
Really interesting. Yeah, like, did she just give birth to some lares? And then those lares just like, multiplied, like the broomsticks in Fantasia.

Dr G 1:18:26
Are they? Like the Egyptian shabties, where all of a sudden there’s 1000s of them? Yeah?

Dr Rad 1:18:34
And interestingly enough, there’s obviously talk about, okay, so they have a mother who’s the daddy. Do?

Dr G 1:18:40
Daddy? Always a pertinent question in a paternalistic type of society.

Dr Rad 1:18:48
Well, but it actually takes us back to stories that we’ve told many times now, the idea of, obviously, people being born from the half, like you were talking about, you know, like that, being a place of divinity, I suppose, potential divine origin. We’ve got this idea, obviously, of, you know, Servius Tullius, potentially being born from the fire. He’s one of the kings of Rome. And just yeah, these connections with these stories that we have talked about, and the idea of being born from the hearth, whether that means that Vulcan is your father or like the Lares familiares…. It’s just, there’s just so many questions about exactly how all of this stuff that we’ve got fits together, but the idea that there is a single lady who is like the mother of the lares, it’s just, it’s just weird. It’s something we can’t really fully explain.

Dr G 1:19:39
Well, I think that’s a fantastic note to end on, because the there is always a mother. If you go back far enough, there’s always a mother. The story always starts with a woman.

Dr Rad 1:19:51
Were they born of an interaction between a woman and a fire? Again, again.

Dr G 1:19:59
I’ve seen enough. Fire palaces to last me a lifetime, never again.

Dr Rad 1:20:03
How can we explain all of this? Well, yeah, and there, and there are no myths about them. They just exist, like they’re just there it. And that’s the thing. It’s, I mean, I shouldn’t say no myths, but yeah, there’s no, like, big mythical tales like you get with people, like we’re not

Dr G 1:20:20
people, yeah, Ovid doesn’t devote a story in his Metamorphoses to the lares and things like this. So, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:20:28
all right, so we’ve got it. We’ve got archaic at Roman religion being obviously very ancient, not stolen from the Greeks, not stolen from the Greeks.

Dr G 1:20:38
Greek influence creeps in over time. Colonization is a thing. Be aware everybody. The Greeks colonized Italy first, and then the Romans went and got the Greeks back a few 100 years later, that was a thing. The Romans are very open minded up until a certain point. They encourage gods into their realm. They embrace different traditions, then they become an empire. Things go a bit downhill from there in terms of their relatability and acceptance of others. Then the Christians win the war, and Golden Age Hollywood gives us some tales.

Dr Rad 1:21:16
Guess, have a field day. Yeah, yeah. Look, I think, I think the thing that I’ll take away is that actually, whether we’re talking about public or private religion, if we want to put those labels on it, just to make sense of it in our own head, is that it is about the world around you, and it is about finding safety and security, which I think is still something that most religions are about these days, really, whether it’s internal or external, safety and security are looking for with, I think, the very archaic origins of Rome. I mean, sometimes we think that their gods and goddesses weren’t even represented in like, you know, human figures, like they, you know, were, as you say, more tied to natural world and agriculture and that sort of thing. I even found reference to a goddess of mildew, which I didn’t know existed. There you go. Yeah, I hate mildew. But certainly I think that idea of paying attention to the natural world and even the lares, if we do think of them, as being associated with place, of being protective of your home, of being about boundaries and property, it’s really all about the spaces around you and how you interact with that, and how you observe what’s going on around you in the romancy, that is something very important, being observant and connected to those things and respectful of those things, which I actually don’t think is a terrible thing to take away from this, even though I know we shouldn’t be too presentist about it. There are lots of things about Roman religion I don’t like, but I don’t like animal sacrifice, and I never will Rome. I think that that sort of aspect of it being very about being observant of the world around you, and finding that security and having protection that I can understand.

Dr G 1:22:52
Yeah, definitely. And I think there is really interesting developments along the way in Roman history, in terms of what we can find in the archeological record, what is suggested by the way, other italic peoples are engaging with the divine, because we’ve got little pieces of evidence here and there. Some things from the oscan language, some things from the umbrians, some things from the Etruscans, as well as the Latins and all of this is building a really robust picture of people who are incredibly observant of nature and are looking to understand their place within nature and to take corrective action if it looks like things are not happening in a way that’s appropriate. So if you have a plague, or you have a pestilence that is understood as an interpretive sign that something needs to be done differently and fair enough, because nobody wants to live through a pestilence every year. So what can you do differently? And the way that that transforms, over time, into highly formalized priesthoods that are locked and bound into the elite, is something that we’re going to increasingly see in our narrative episodes as well. And then that next transition into an imperial cult, which is taking another step away from that is, I think, also going to be a really interesting transition period. So it has been a real pleasure.

Dr Rad 1:24:23
Something we probably should mention, as in this wrap up as well, in terms of their observance of what’s going on around them, is the fact that, for if we’re talking about the Archaic period, and these very early times that we’re in, the Romans, are operating on a lunar calendar, and it’s not until 300 BCE that they switch to solar calendar for various reasons. And, yeah, that changes things a little bit as well. I believe that there’s, like, a rise in number of priests. It also means that, as you say, I think, I think things become a bit more formalized in terms of people knowing what days you can and can’t bring legal business and that sort of thing. But it again, means that you, you are looking to. People to tell you how the gods are dictating your day to day life in terms of when you can and can’t do certain things and and how you operate on a on a day to day basis, the gods are everywhere. For the Romans, they are present everything. Of course, you can break the rules, but then being there and you knowing, you knowing about it, that’s that’s definitely like an interaction on a on a day to day basis, which we can often overlook in our grand narratives, where it’s all about, whoa, indeed.

Dr G 1:25:32
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss Roman religious practices with you. Dr, Rad, I

Dr Rad 1:25:38
always learn so much from these conversations. Dr, G because, as I say, it’s not something I tend to focus on. So thank you.

Dr Rad 1:25:53
Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive, to find more from the memory collective head to collective, mem.com you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. If monthly patronage is not your style, we have merch, we have a book, or you can just buy us a coffee on Ko fi. And we’d like to say big thank you to all our Patreon supporters for making special episodes like this. One possible. However, if your Imperial coffers do not overflow, us, one of the easiest and most important ways to help us is to tell someone about the show or give us a five star review wherever you listen. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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We have finally reached the LAST part of our coverage of the Gallic Sack of Rome.

Once again, whilst there are similar elements in our sources, it is astonishing to see the different way the authors weave the details together.

Episode 171 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 6

It is not often that Diodorus Sicilus is praised for his accuracy, but this is one of those rare moments. Savour it, everyone! Dr G takes us through the details of his account, in which Camillus is on a military rampage. Forget the Rocky training montage that Livy includes. This is a Rambo montage, with Camillus kicking ass all over Italy. He’s taking down the Volscians, the Aequians, the Etruscans…. where does he find the time?

It is during his escapades that Camillus recovers the ransomed gold, not the rather more dramatic intervention included in Livy’s history. However, Diodorus and Livy are not the only sources to have different explanations for the return of the gold! Some sources claim it was the people of Caere who retrieve the ransom after defeating the Gauls in a battle, and others claim it was one of the Emperor Tiberius’ ancestors who won it back in a battle with a Gallic chieftain.

We will let you guess which version Dr Rad prefers…

Gold bullion, image courtesy of World History Encyclopedia. Original image by Andrzej Barabasz .

Unlike Diodorus, Livy is content to keep the focus on affairs inside Rome. Camillus gets a triumph and then keeps his dictatorship because things are not yet as they should be. Camillus needs to make sure that Rome remains on the good side of the gods. Purification and restoration of the temples was the name of the game.

However, most of the remainder of Livy’s account for this year is dedicated to Camillus giving the MOTHER of all speeches. The tribunes of the plebs were stirring up trouble by pushing for Rome to be moved to Veii. Urgh, the tribunes. They were the only people Camillus did not miss whilst he was in exile.  

Why go to the effort of rebuilding the city when there’s a perfectly good abandoned one right over there?

Well, Camillus can tell you exactly why and in a painful level of detail. To cut a long story short:

Camillus’ rhetoric was incredibly powerful, but a sign sent straight from the gods helped to seal the deal. The Romans were staying put! Time to get Bob the Builder on the phone.

Whichever historian you prefer, we both end up in roughly similar places by the end of 390 BCE (or thereabouts): the gods have been taken care of, the city has been rebuilt, the gold is back in Roman hands, and Camillus is the most awesome general… well, ever!

And THAT brings the Gallic Sack of Rome to a close.

OR

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sounds.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:56
Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:04
and I am, Dr G, and we are deep, deep, deep in the Gallic sack of Rome.

Dr Rad 1:12
Is this our longest kind of series, if you will?

Dr G 1:17
Dr G, our longest mini series. It might be. It could possibly be rivaled by Coriolanus, but nevertheless, we are now in what is part six of 390 BCE, and that is a lot of parts.

Dr Rad 1:33
It is, I feel like the decemvirate, it lasted for a long time that dragged on.

Dr G 1:39
That’s true. I don’t even think forgotten, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:42
I don’t even think that the decemvirate it lasted as long as 390 BCE, but there’s just so much drama. Listeners, we have to explore every detail,

Dr G 1:52
so many of those details. And in our previous episode, it was a lot of Livy’s details, if I recall rightly.

Dr Rad 2:01
It was so to give a broad recap of where we have been, the Romans have been very rude to the Gauls interfering in something that really was, quite frankly, none of their business. Whereas maybe what actually happened is maybe we had some sort of Fabian rogue warlords who did something a bit trashy that they weren’t supposed to do, like, I don’t know, kill a Gallic leader and strip his body during the battle, sparked off some resentment between the Romans and the Gauls, if we are to believe it, although, again, alternative accounts would suggest that maybe Rome was just something that the Gauls encountered on their way to somewhere else, and they decided, Hey, that looks like a cool place to sack.

Dr G 2:46
Yeah, there seems to be competing theories. Either

Dr Rad 2:49
way, we have had a military encounter between the Gauls and the Romans. Didn’t go well for the Romans. The Gauls have then followed them back to Rome itself. They’ve set up siege. Lots of Romans have had to flee to various places, including just randomly, the countryside or other cities for safety. But we have a valiant band of Romans who remained in the city, Dr G and they were holding out for so long, but finally, in our last episode, they realized that they couldn’t hold out much longer in my account, they were waiting for Camillus to turn up, because Camillus had somehow been appointed dictator, even though the Romans are scattered throughout Italy at this point in time. And indeed, Camillus does show up, not in time to stop the people who are defending the Capitolini and the citadel of Rome from the Gauls from surrendering, but he shows up just in the nick of time to prevent the Romans from having to hand over this ransom that they were going to pay to the Gauls in order for them to go away, which was very opportune. And then Camillus proceeds to use the soldiers that he’s been training whilst in exile to kick some Gallic butt. Excellent.

Dr G 4:08
It strikes me that Livy is offering us a very convenient narrative that really positions Camillus as the Lord and Savior of our grand city, Rome, and yet his account does not tally up very well with Diodorus Siculus. And I have been flagging this for a little while, and it is, it is now time, I think, to see the great divergence that happens in our source material. Because up until now, they’ve agreed about a lot of things, stories like the sacred geese, stories like people approaching Rome from Fay being like, we’re here to help. There’s a secret force in another place, and all of that kind of stuff. The offensiveness that has happened from the Fabian side that has precipitated this insult, all of these details seen. Him to be part of various narrative sources. But when we get to the issue of what is going on with Camillus, we have Livy’s suggesting that he’s made dictator in absentia and has been preparing even though he’s been in exile for quite some time. And yet, when we turn to Diodorus Siculus, we get a very different sort of recount of the unfolding of these events. So I’d like to take you through some of them.

Dr Rad 5:31
I’m not sure I want to hear this. Dr G I would rather Camillus remained on his pedestal. But if you insist, I shall not be rude.

Dr G 5:40
I’m not sure that I’m going to tear his pedestal completely away, but just to add a bit of complexity.

Dr Rad 5:50
You mean, I haven’t added complexity where I basically questioned almost every detail. I mean, last episode, we basically agreed that there’s very little archeological evidence that the Gauls actually did sack Rome, even though we’re in part six of the Gallic sack, we’re going to

Dr G 6:06
work with the premise for now. Yeah, there was some sort of Gallic sack, yeah, but obviously, a lot of this is open to question, and from an archeological perspective, we’re a little bit confused, and particularly because our sources do emphasize this idea that there is a rebuilding phase, yes, so we have the Gauls take the gold, and the Romans do hand over this huge sum of money, and the Gauls do walk away.

Dr Rad 6:37
Do they agree on the amount of gold that was handed over? At least Diodorus and Livy.

Dr G 6:41
Oh yes, oh yes, yeah. It’s 1000 pounds of gold. It’s, it is a huge sum for this time period. I mean, it would be a huge sum at any time if somebody came to say 1000 pounds of gold, I’d be like, I cannot.

Dr Rad 6:54
I didn’t even have any gold jewelry to give you. Yeah, my

Dr G 6:57
earthly possessions, if you converted it to gold, would not tally up to anywhere near that. So it is massive what has been asked and what has been handed over. And in Diodorus Siculus, there is no Camillus on the scene.

Dr Rad 7:14
Well, suspect immediately, suspect.

Dr G 7:18
Questions need to be asked. So the Gauls start to leave. They take the gold with them, and the Romans immediately turn to rebuilding the city, because there has been plenty of damage created by the siege. And we get this idea that the Romans gather together, they decide that there will be a state funded rebuilding program,

Dr Rad 7:42
essentially sounds very formal,

Dr G 7:44
very formal. Yes. Sign on the line here, and you’re entitled to 10 Roman roof tiles which you can use to rebuild your home. Yeah. So these, this idea of roof tiles being manufactured and given out to Roman citizens seems to be part of the rebuilding program, and Camillus still nowhere to be seen. People are like, I’m just gonna rebuild my house. I got these public tiles. I’ve got my willpower, and I’m just gonna try to rebuild So fair enough at the same time. And I think I’ve mentioned this previously as well. The Volscians have seen this as a prime opportunity. Rome is at its most vulnerable, and they can see from afar that presumably there’s like a sort of a pile of trash where a city used to be, and there’s some people picking through it being like, I can rebuild. It’s our time to take the spot we can take them. So that’s what they decide to do. They roll up to Rome, essentially, and the Romans can see them coming, and they’re like, Oh, we better try and muster as many people as we possibly can. This is a Roman force that has just endured a siege. They’re probably not most robust in their physicality right now, but they do try to field an army to propel the Volscians. And it is only at this point where, and we don’t know where Camillus has been all this time, because it’s not entirely clear.

Dr Rad 9:21
Ardea, obviously, he’s been doing a rocky montage.

Dr G 9:29
He has been very busy with his rocky montage, that’s true, and he is now appointed dictator. So finally, he re enters the narrative way too late for the Gallic sack of Rome. He misses it all not there. Just want to underline that point. He missed the whole thing.

Dr Rad 9:50
Livy has far too many rhetorical gems for this to be untrue. Dr, G, I mean, what are you suggesting that he can. Instructed most of the first of his 10 books, and almost certainly book six to 10, around the figure of Camillus, because he had such a grand reputation in the late Republic.

Dr G 10:13
Maybe, certainly, certainly Livy’s operating under the constraints that Diodorus Siculus is not and this might mean that for this portion of Diodorus’ history, for which he rarely focuses on Rome, because let’s face it, he’s more interested in what’s actually happening in the broader Mediterranean, which is Greece, naturally. But when he does decide to focus on Rome, he might be a little bit more objective than say, somebody like Livy putting it out there.

Dr Rad 10:49
You’re gonna be very sorry when I tell you what else Livy has to say about this whole deal, my friend. Because we haven’t even got to the end of this year in Livy’s account, there is plenty more Camillus to come.

Dr G 11:01
Oh, and there’s plenty more Camillus to come in Diodorus Siculus as well. So there might be moments where this all starts to make sense again. On some level, Camillus forces are able to take down the Volscians, and apparently they are slaughtered, almost to a man. So that’s pretty bad. And it’s at that point that Camillus then starts to go on what appears to be an all over Italy sort of rampage with his forces, because once he locks in the victory over the volscian he immediately turns towards the city of bola, which is thought to be the same place as modern Labici, 35 kilometers south east of Rome. So we’re in the Castelli Romani region. Something’s been going on there. Bola is being besieged by the Aequians. So, you know, while the Gauls have been doing things, all the neighboring people have been getting up to naughtiness. As far as the Romans are concerned, Camillus goes and clears them out as well. So he immediately heads 35 kilometers south. So we really need, like, a map montage for the things that are going to happen, because he starts off with the volscian He then marches south east, deals with the Aequians. He then marches all the way to Sutrium, 50 kilometers north of Rome, a Roman colony there is being plagued by the Etruscans, so they need to be dealt with as well.

Dr Rad 12:33
This all adds up. Now I see where Diodorus is going. And look, I think this has to do with our confusing chronology for the events of this year. Because, of course, we’re saying that the Gallic sack of Rome, Gaelic attack on Rome, whatever you want to call it, happens in 390 but of course, that’s not 100% certain. In fact, I would say it probably didn’t happen in that year. It’s just the confusing nature of the chronology of this time. And certainly in Livy’s account, Camillus is about to do all of those things, but not yet. Dr G, he has something else to deal with. And this is again, where you can see how Livy’s very much making this the Camillus show, and he’s focusing on something totally different to what you’ve just been talking about, because that’s going to come later.

Dr G 13:21
So he takes Sutrium back, because apparently it was a Roman colony and it needed to be returned to Roman control. So the Etruscans, they see Camillus coming and like, Oh no, Rome’s back, and it’s a disaster for them. And then it turns out that the Gauls have not really left Italy. After all, they’ve taken a small break at a city called Vascium, which is 125 kilometers north of Rome. Camillus hears wind of this, and he’s like, this is our chance we can get the gold back. And so it’s another quick march further up into Etruscan territory, they attack the Gaulish force. Slay them in huge numbers, because obviously the Gauls are also sort of suffering from the siege aftermath, and they’re not having a great time. And it is there, apparently, all this way north of Rome, deep inside Etruscan territory, that Camillus is finally able to take back Rome’s gold and return it back to the city. So this is a quick fire, sort of moving south, moving north, moving north again, attacking everybody. Camillus comes in like a train, and nobody can, nobody can resist the power of his militarism, and he gets back the gold.

Dr Rad 14:46
So Diodorus still has Camillus being responsible for the return of the gold, which is interesting, because we do have these snippets in other sources, like Suetonius tells the story about one of Tiberius’ ancestors in. Getting into like a duel with a Gallic character, and winning the gold back that way. We also have a little tidbit in Strabo, I believe, where he talks about the people of Caere which was the city you might recall, where the Vestal virgins took, apparently, a lot of room sacred objects when the siege was imminent. And it’s perhaps because of this and the people from Caere recovering the gold and giving it back to the Romans, that the Romans have this special relationship with them, which we’ll get to, I’m sure, in both of our accounts very shortly. So it’s interesting that Diodorus is still maintaining that Camillus is responsible for it, even though it happens in a very different order and a different way.

Dr G 15:42
Yeah, so we have a certain amount of consistency with Livy. It’s just that the timelines really don’t match up at all. And Camillus does all of these sort of really what sounds like fantastical, sort of military movements in quick succession, one after the other, and is kind of everywhere in central Italy, and then all of a sudden, is like, Haha, I found it. And then comes back to Rome,

Dr Rad 16:06
the goal at the end of the rainbow,

Dr G 16:09
definitely, as far as he’s concerned, he’s found the treasure. Yeah.

Dr Rad 16:13
Okay, so in Livy, the timeline is quite different. He gives a lot more detail to these, these military escapades that you’re talking about, and they happen in, I think, different years. So that’s why it’s it’s kind of a bit more spaced out. And this is, perhaps, again, as we talked about, like the the slight padding that might have gone on with some of the years in this time period, and the way things are, the way things are adding up, and perhaps also, as you have highlighted, the way that Livy may or may not have inserted Camillus in moments where Camillus did not actually belong. So we will see. But in my account, Camillus goes from basically killing all of the Gauls immediately so he prevents the gold from leaving Rome. He then uses the troops that he’s been training in exile once he knew that Rome wanted him back and wanted him as dictator to absolutely annihilate them. The Romans are thrilled. Everything is looking much, much better, even though, obviously it’s still not great because they still just come out of the siege and their city apparently has been burnt to the ground. However, this is where we need to switch to the classic conflict of the orders kind of material?

Dr G 17:24
Ooh, yes, yes, do tell

Dr Rad 17:28
we’re going back to an issue which has been flagged in some of our previous episodes, which is that ever since the Romans have conquered they there has been a group that think it would be a good idea to move at least some of the Romans to ve to live there. So this is where this issue comes back up. The tribune of the plebs, who we haven’t talked about for a while, decide to be bothersome ruin camilius good time, because they desperately still want the Romans to move to vain now they have a real reason to argue for that. It’s not just, Oh, hey, there’s this whole city just sitting there. Why don’t we move some people over there? Now they’re looking around and saying, Hey, did you notice that our city’s just been burnt to the ground by some invading Gauls, rather than hanging around here, which is depressing and there’s no shelter, etc, why don’t we just take this opportunity to pack up and move to they the plebs are listening because they can see the sense in this. Because they’re looking around too and saying, Oh yes, I see what you mean. Burnt city seems like a lot of hassle when there’s this empty city just sitting right there, not that far away from Rome. However, this is absolutely abhorrent to Camillus. He completely shuts it down. Won’t hear talk of this at all, and he actually gets to keep his dictatorship, even after he has dealt with the Gauls and massacred them, because the Senate feel that they need him in this position of authority in order to make sure that this whole crazy Veii plan doesn’t gain any traction. So he’s still got some time. He’s managed to accomplish everything very quickly, saying once he’s back on the scene in Livy’s account. So he’s still got some time. And so they want him around to oversee the process for Rome at this point in time, post sack by the Gauls. Okay?

Dr G 19:41
So he’s kind of in a disaster relief position,

Dr Rad 19:45
yes, and they the Senate feel safer because, again, this is lending, This is lending to that conflict of the orders narrative. We’re presuming that most of the senators, at least in Livy’s account, are meant to be, obviously, patricians, we presume, even though we know that. That’s not always the case, apparently, and Camillus would be protecting their interests and what they want to see happening at this point in time. So what ends up happening is Camillus decides that religion needs to be his focus as dictator. Because this is a very big characteristic of Camillus and Livy’s account, he’s extremely pious, and as I’ve been trying to highlight with Livy’s account, he is at pains to emphasize when the Romans have been displeasing the gods, and then to emphasize when the Romans are actually doing things by the book, and therefore kind of deserve the God’s favor. And what we’ve seen is that ever since the Gauls started attacking Rome, and things went bad for them at the Alia in that initial battle, the Romans have been trying to do things correctly. So we’ve had, you know, Fabians wandering about with seemingly not a care in the world in order to carry out family rituals. And we’ve seen Camillus, you know, refuse to be accepted as a refuse to be appointed as a dictator unless the proper procedures have been followed. So this is carrying on, this idea that the Romans are back on track. They’re laser focused. Dr, G, they’re not just to do anything to upset the guards. This time around, they’ve learned their lesson.

Dr G 21:19
It is a very bizarre time, and it’s a confusing time within the source material as well. So this is where I would start to have a look at plutarch’s Life of Camillus, because he is obviously trying to write some moral edifying biographies. And it’s like, what can we learn from people, and what would be the appropriate things to do. And he taps into some of this. And there is a sense in which Camillus becomes fundamental in certain narratives, and certainly in plutarch’s narrative, to the proper and right way of doing things when it comes to ritual practice in the wake of the Gallic sack. So we first of all hear about the priests all returning, so slowly the news gets out that the Gauls have gone and people can start coming back to Rome. That’s really important, because a lot of Rome’s ritual practice is dependent on the geography. So you can’t be a Vestal virgin in practice, unless you’re in the temple in the Aedes Vestae. Likewise, what would it mean to read the signs of the birds if you’re not standing in the right location? Because it would be bird signs for somewhere else, not for where you are. All of these things become dependent on geography. So having the priest come back, super important moment in terms of getting Rome back on track, and that seems to be facilitated by the Gauls leaving. And Camillus seems to also be involved in this, to a certain degree. He apparently starts to restore some of the temples that have been damaged in the wake of the sack. And plutek makes reference to one that we really don’t know anything about, called a temple to rumor and voice, which is a new temple, apparently.

Dr Rad 23:11
Yeah, that might be related to the, you know, how there was that plebeian who heard the voice warning? I think that might

Dr G 23:18
be that was ignored. Yes, quite possibly it’s called the Ara Aii Locutii, yeah, that’s the one, yeah, and we kind of don’t hear about it again, but it’s apparently very important, and Camillus is involved, so there is that. But we also have this continuing discussion, as you mentioned, between what about they versus what about Rome? And it seems to be an almost irresolvable question for the Romans about what do we do with this place that we’ve we took so long to take but now we’re not really doing anything with it’s

Dr Rad 23:57
Valuable real estate. It’s just sitting there.

Dr G 24:00
Yeah, I’m just gonna let it accumulate value in this late stage capitalism. It’s gonna be great. So they’re just sort of sitting on Veii, but not actually utilizing it. And I can see, from a plebeian perspective, why that would be such a waste. And I’m not sure that I understand the mindset of these very conservative patricians about nobody can go there, and maybe they’re just worried about having rivals, because obviously a new elite would emerge in a different location. So I find these things really quite interesting, because it’s all happening at the same time. We’ve got Rome expanding and then immediately contracting, and now having to deal with its expansionist legacy in a moment where they’re still recovering from the contraction, which is the Gauls arrival.

Dr Rad 24:50
Well, Dr, G, you could not have given me any more perfect a segue. You want to understand the mindset of the conservatives that don’t want to go to Veii. You’re about to get pages of it be. Because Livy’s about to give you a giant speech from Camillus. No, before I get into the speech, I will give you the exact details that Livy tells me Camillus focuses on first. So he goes to the Senate and he gets them to issue a decree so that he can actually go about the religious program that he thinks needs to happen in order to make sure that everything is square for the Romans. So exactly as you said, shrines and temples, they obviously need to be purified. They need to be restored after the Gallic sack. If we think of the Gallic sack as maybe being more about the Gauls seizing any portable wealth that Rome had as a city, that would make sense. Shrines and temples are places that the Gauls definitely would have gone to to see if there was anything valuable inside those buildings, which presumably would have been a bit more monumental or perhaps well cared for than some of the other dwellings that would have existed in Rome at this time. And I kind of do think that that’s probably what the Gauls were more after. I don’t think they were actually that interested in setting Rome on fire, and certainly there’s no evidence of that. And we also have this reference to duumvirs, who who are asked to look through the sibylline books to make sure that the proper rights are followed. And the sibylline books come up again and again in our histories of Rome. These are books that the Romans tend to turn to in times of trouble when they need to look to the answers for things in this collection that has been put together and and also make sure that everything is is going according to plan, as seems to be what they’re doing here. This is where Camillus also suggests that Rome needs to have this covenant of hospitality with car a now in Livy’s account, that’s because car a took in the refugee Romans, so the vessels who were fleeing with the sacred objects, carre took them in and kept them safe. And this is why it’s important to honor that. Because of that, the Roman gods have still been able to receive some worship whilst the galaxy was going on, which, as we’ve talked about in a previous episode, apparently, was like six or seven months, so quite a long time. However, it could be, as we were just talking about, that the people of carre are the ones that actually retrieved the gold for the Romans, and therefore that’s why they have this reputation. But that is not mentioned by Livy,

Dr G 27:33
yeah, we owe you big time.

Dr Rad 27:37
He also wants the Capitolini games to be held. So these are games that are set up in honor of Jupiter, because Jupiter did not allow Rome to completely fall. They held that tiny piece of territory amidst all the trouble, even though some modern historians don’t actually think that that is true, and that Rome was maybe captured in its entirety. We’ll run with the version that the Romans have, which is that they held that Capitolini Hill till their dying breath.

Dr G 28:09
They held out that little square where Jupiter’s temple also stands. They managed to salvage that. Thank you, Jupiter,

Dr Rad 28:18
yes, and in order for this to happen, he puts together a college of priests who are going to be involved in organizing and holding the Capitolini games called the Capitolini, once again, Rome with the clever names.

Dr G 28:36
They do love a clever name.

Dr Rad 28:37
These men are chosen from the men who were involved in holding the hill originally. Obviously, that can’t be true forever, but he chooses from amongst those men who had stayed behind in Rome the whole time and helped to hold the hill. Now, we actually don’t know for certain when the Capitolini games were first held in Rome. We, as usual, have varying accounts that show the Romans themselves are a little confused. Certainly, Camillus is a popular choice as the person who founds the Capitolini games or sets up the Capitolini games, but we do also have references to figures like Romulus organizing the first Capitolini games. What we can say safely is that they old. They real old,

Dr G 29:22
quite, quite old. Yes, okay, that’s really interesting. I think tapping into the idea of having held the Capitol line, and that being the foundation story essentially for the capitolini’s games is it feels like a nice, neat narrative. So I can see why it would be an appealing sort of backstory, so an etiology for what’s going on here. Yes, there are some weird sort of connections that sort of crop up amongst all of this, and I don’t want to destroy what might be coming up for you, but. But are we going to talk about the head?

Dr Rad 30:03
Yes, but not quite yet. That comes up in the speech, okay. Oh, building up. We’re talking about the same head.

Dr G 30:12
Wink Wink. Listeners, watch out if you already know about the head. This is a spoiler.

Dr Rad 30:19
So this is where Livy also tells me about the temple being set up to Aius Locutius. So that’s the God that is now recognized because of the omen that was given to that plebeian who was ridiculed and not believed before the Gallic Sack actually happened. And now, of course, Camillus also has to decide what to do with the gold because in this account, the Gauls never got it. The Romans collected it, but they kept it. Now, this is where it gets a bit confusing, because, as you know, Livy was very clear that the gold was somehow taken from state funds and also topped up by contributions from people like the matrons, this group of random women that we get to reference every now and then,

Dr G 31:04
oh, look. And Diodorus Siculus also backs up that idea that the women contributed to that fund. So that is a sort of an enduring, kind of repeated narrative as well, that the women were involved.

Dr Rad 31:16
Sure, I believe that the women were involved. Do I believe that the Romans didn’t borrow a little bit of their funding from maybe some temple treasury. I don’t know that I do. Dr G,

Dr G 31:30
it’s hard, you know, you’re stuck on a hill. What are you gonna do?

Dr Rad 31:33
Yeah, well, the Romans had gathered up certain temple treasure and stored it all in the temple of Jupiter, because, of course, that’s on the Capitoline, which is what they were defending. And now that the siege is all over, they can’t remember where it all came from. They’re like, Ah, I guess we should have labeled this. Oh, this is awkward. I don’t know what to do.

Dr G 31:56
Did nobody keep a spreadsheet for this guys? Guys, I

Dr Rad 32:00
know this is what Excel was invented for Jesus Christ, Marcus. So they decide that they’re just going to wave their magic wand and say, poof, all of this gold is now sacred and it’s going to be placed under Jupiter’s throne.

Dr G 32:18
Ta, da, ooh. All right, well, at the risk of making all the other gods that have their temples elsewhere in the city, that have had their treasure poor loin to go up to the top of that hill. Well, that’s bold move Rome.

Dr Rad 32:32
It didn’t happen. That’s why we don’t have to worry about it. Now this is where the Romans also decide they’re going to give a vote of thanks to the matrons for their contribution, and they are, once again, recognized in the traditional manner that matrons usually are when they help the other Romans out, which is they get to have eulogies at their funerals, like their superior men or something.

Dr G 32:59
This is big, all right, somebody’s going to talk about you after you die. It’s a special privilege, exactly.

Dr Rad 33:06
It’s very unusual for women to get this sort of honor. Again, we’re not entirely sure that this would have happened, but sure, let’s run with it. Give the women something in return for their contributions.

Dr G 33:19
You can have a gift, but you have to be dead first, so make the most of it.

Dr Rad 33:23
Well, I think that in See, this is the thing in Livy’s account, as you say, it is very neat. In Livy’s account, the Roman women contribute this. They contribute their gold so that sacred treasure can be left untouched. So they’ve got their state funds secured on the Capitol. They don’t have quite enough to pay the Gauls, so the Roman matrons chip in, and that way it’s all nice and neat. No sacred treasure is touched in Livy’s account. But as we say at this point in time, what is money? What is goods? What are we talking about? And it just seems really unlikely that these besieged Romans, when everyone else has fled the city, actually had this large lump of capital just sitting there that wasn’t temple treasure. But anyway, I’ve talked about this enough. Once all of this stuff is taken care of, Camillus can rest easy. Dr G he’s got all his piety out of his system. He feels like Rome is now in a good place. Now is when he can turn to properly deal with these troublesome tribunes and the question of they so he goes to an assembly, as do the Senate, and he’s about to give the mother of all speeches.

Dr G 34:38
Dare I ask? How many pages this runs to in the translation.

Dr Rad 34:42
Oh, pages. Well, I mean, for Livy, it’s long, like it’s nothing compared to probably what you used to have to go through with Dionysius back in the good old days. But it’s long as far

Dr G 34:51
as when I had a source. Okay, all right, I’m gonna strap myself in.

Dr Rad 34:56
Yep. Get ready for it. Yeah. Camillus is particular. Ly distressed by this whole situation, because the one thing that sort of made him feel somewhat okay about being in exile in Ardea was the fact that he actually he hated the idea that people even wanted to go to they kind of made him go, You know what? Maybe I shouldn’t be in Rome. Maybe Rome does suck. Maybe our deer is not so bad, because the Romans are actually considering going to Veii – disgusting,

Dr G 35:29
such a low move, he

Dr Rad 35:31
actually says he would never have even gone back to Rome, even if the Senate and the people had begged him just so he could avoid tribunes like this.

Dr G 35:44
I just this Roman mindset is baffling. It really is.

Dr Rad 35:48
He really only came back because Rome was just in such a bad situation. He felt like he really couldn’t say no. But I mean, if it had been a little bit better, maybe he wouldn’t Dr G because tribunes, they’re the worst. He then points out, annoyingly logically, why even bother to fight the Gauls? Why drive them out of Roman territory if you’re then just going to turn around and abandon the City immediately? Why did I do all of this? Why did I come out of exile? Why did I do the Rocky montage?

Dr G 36:21
But counterpoint, counterpoint. It’s not all Rome moving to Veii. It’s just some of the people moving to ve like we’re not talking about leaving Rome in the dust and pretending like it never existed. We’re just saying some people are now living on this hill over here.

Dr Rad 36:38
That was the initial proposal back before the Gallic sack had happened, you’re absolutely right, they were talking about maybe dividing the population and only sending some I think at this point though, Rome is so atrociously destroyed in Livy’s account that maybe it’s more we actually all relocate. Even worse, even be like,

Dr G 36:59
Guys, yeah, everything’s been burnt down here. Like, let’s Veii still has some building standing. Like, bite the bullet, just let’s move.

Dr Rad 37:08
Yeah, so Camillus so Camillus then says, you know, the Romans have managed to hold the Capitol and the Citadel all throughout this terrible time. Again. Why would you put yourself through that. I mean, basically the brink of starvation and all that deprivation. We can’t even imagine what those guys went through, and then they’re just going to walk away and leave it voluntarily, that patch that they defended for so long. I don’t think so. Camillus also brings in his religious side here. Of course, he feels like Rome’s gods, their religious traditions that had endured for hundreds of years at this point had always managed to protect Rome, even in this moment, there has been that level of protection. How could the Romans think of turning their backs on their gods now? Because, as you pointed out, there are certain things which are very much tied to the city of Rome itself. You can’t just move them to a new location, at least the way that the Romans have done them in the past. Camillus points out that if the Romans actually do their math, get out their Excel spreadsheet over the past few years, whilst Yes, they’d had some very high hives and some very low lows, but the highs had always coincided with moments where the Romans were listening to the gods. Need he say more? Dr G, this misfortune with the gods had all happened because the Romans had started turning their backs on the gods and not listening to the many warnings that were provided to them that could have helped them to avoid this whole situation. Once the chips were down with the Gauls, then the Romans started to get back on track again, get religious again. They had made sure that they held the capital and Jupiter Optimus, Maximus had helped them out as well. The Gauls had never managed to take the Capitol line. They’d also buried their holy relics, because the Romans were trying to make sure that such things could not fall into barbarian hands as mere loot, mere booty. It had all been protected. The earth of Rome itself had protected their holy relics. How could the Romans think of leaving the earth the soil? Dr, G,

Dr G 39:31
well, I feel like Camillus is getting carried away, because part of the trouble that Rome has faced is because he’s forgotten some of his oaths. Like, lest we forget that Camillus is part of the problem.

Dr Rad 39:45
Look, maybe he’s not trying to deny that. Maybe he’s trying to, I think the thing is, here’s the thing is forgetfulness. You know, once you realize you forgot something, he’s like, Ooh, this is going to be awkward, guys, but I need some of that booty back. Yeah, he always tries and does the right thing. He just sometimes he seems to be a little bit of a buffoon,

Dr G 40:12
debatable, but yeah, look here he is getting up and being like, you just got to make things right with the gods. I’m like, buddy, you need a mirror.

Dr Rad 40:20
Nonetheless, he’s very much on this bandwagon that once the Romans were facing danger, they did the right thing. They made sure that everything was safe, that was holy, kept the temple treasures safe, and due to this, it’s because of this that the Romans managed to get back their land, not necessarily because of him, but because the gods were now back on their side, and this is something that Livy also mentioned, that fortune was now back on the Roman side. When they were able to massacre every living goal, there are no goals left. Dr G, the Romans have killed them all, and the Gauls got their punishment, because when they tried to do their trickery with the scales, what happened? They didn’t get the girl, did they? No, no, the gods made sure that Camilla showed up at just the right time to make sure that they would be punished. I mean, do you need any

Dr G 41:21
certain scholarly accounts only for certain types of evidence?

Dr Rad 41:28
Camillus really wants the Romans to realize that they have only, just by the skin of their teeth, managed to avert total disaster, and yet, if they decide to relocate today, they’re just going to be running headlong into another one, and he is here to give them their wake up call. The entire city of Rome is completely shot through with their religion, their gods, the sacrifices that need to happen every year, the Holy Days that have to be observed every year. Are the Romans really thinking they can just leave? He comes back to this point a lot. Do the Romans really think they can just leave? Not just the state deities. Dr G, think of the family gods. So I presume he’s referring to things like the lares, which FYI we’ve done a special episode on archaic religion in Republican Rome that you might like to listen to to understand more about that. But they are definitely important to the Romans. He thinks, how does this stack up when you also compare the conduct of the Romans right now where they’re thinking of leaving to that of Gaius Fabius during the Gallic sack. I mean, he had risked death to make sure that the appropriate rituals had been carried out. He did not let the worship slip. Famine or no famine, Siege or no siege, and now the citizens we’re not even faced with any danger are again thinking that they can somehow be more cash about all these rituals when there’s no immediate reason for them to ignore what is going on? What are they thinking?

Dr G 43:20
Just a slight question, is it the case that when Livy is writing that there seems to be some concerns about people leaving Rome for other places? Is Is there some sort of contemporary anxiety around robe itself at this point in time when Livy is composing this history? Because this sounds like somebody who’s a little bit scared that maybe things aren’t going well in contemporary, late Republican Rome.

Dr Rad 43:47
Well, I mean, I think the Gallic sack is meant to be a pretty bad time, even if it didn’t happen exactly the way that Romans say it happened. I mean, we’re calling into question a lot of the details that we’re given, but I don’t doubt there was some conflict with Gallic peoples at this point in time. I absolutely don’t dispute that. There’s way too much evidence to the contrary, and not just in Rome. Definitely there are Gauls about they’re looking, probably for land. They probably are looking for portable wealth. So I’m not disputing that. It might be a bad time, but they, I think, is the big thing here about Romans sort of deciding its destiny, as we’ve talked about. It seems odd, given that the siege of Veil lasted for 10 years, and then when the Romans finally win, they seem somewhat surprised and don’t really have a plan as to what they’re going to actually do with Veii once and conquer it.

Dr G 44:36
But this is one of those classic lessons from history where people do not anticipate the consequences of their actions, and then things work out in the way that they were hoping, but they do not have any idea about the next step. And you’re like guys, you’re now in the position where you have exactly what you want.

Dr Rad 44:55
Now this is where Camillus also starts to try and anticipate some of the arguments that the tribunes. Going to throw back at him, of course, he says, you know, maybe the tribunes are going to say, don’t worry about it. You can just transfer all the rites and rituals and all the family gods to Veii. Or what if the pontiffs and the flamens, they just visit the old side of Rome when they need to for the rites. You know, they just fly in, fly out, they’re there and back in the day. No sweat. But to this, Camillus says, No, this will not satisfy the gods. It is not good enough. So don’t even think about it. The gods have high standards. You cannot hold the feast of Jupiter anywhere else but the Capitol period. Now, what he is referring to here is a banquet that was held on the 15th of November where a couch would be set up for Jupiter and Juno and Minerva had little stools on either side, and they would have this feast for Jupiter. So that’s what he’s particularly referring to, and you’ll like this. Dr G, this is where he brings up the Vestal Virgins. What about Vesta’s fires? They can’t just be moved. They belong to Rome itself. He also brings up, and I’m going to quote my translation directly here, the image which is preserved as a pledge of empire in her temple, which is a reference to an image of Pallas known as the Palladium, which was supposedly brought to Italy by Aeneas, so very much part of the Roman foundational myths, linking them to the Trojan Wars, something very important to them. He also brings up what he refers to as the sacred shields. Yes, these go back to the reign of NUMA Doctor G Another favorite of yours, indeed. Yes. So it started up with Mars Gradivus, or Gradivus and Quirinus, the idea of the sacred shields, and they’re sometimes, I think, called the ancillia. I believe, I think we probably actually referred to these things before, but supposedly the original one came from heaven. There were 11 replicas made, and each one was given to one of the 12 Salii Priests of Mars. No one knows which one the original one is, but there is an original. Dr G and Camillus is not happy about this situation.

Dr G 47:32
There is an original. And the priests of the Salii are the ones who look after that, right? And it is very important, and you do not want to lose any of the shields, because each one of them could be the one that fell from heaven. And Camillus is tapping into ideas here that Romans do have about location being a primary feature of their devotion to the gods, because there is no doubt, from a Roman perspective, that you would not be able to perform the rites of Vesta in a different location. Each city could have priestesses to Vesta, but if you went to Veii, they would be priestesses of Vesta in Veii. So it’s fundamentally not Rome anymore. So this taps into a kind of fundamental sense of like, what is Rome? In terms of like, the broader understanding of self and Rome is at least in part, fundamentally about the location. It’s that spot on the Tiber. It is those hills on which they have built those structures, and nothing is able to replicate that. And the real concern is that their understanding of their relationship with the gods is dependent on that location as well. So there’s no guarantees if you move to Veii that things will work out for you, because the gods are the same, but you are now different. And what does being in a right relationship with the Roman gods really look like? And because they have this sense that it’s tied to location, it’s impossible to leave, and we see that coming through in other things as well. So I think we talked recently on Let’s Talk about Myths, Baby podcast, about the triumphal procession, and that in two is geographically tied to the city of Rome. You wouldn’t have a triumph somewhere else. Romans up expanding a lot, but some things are fundamental to location, and so Camillus is tapping into a deep Roman definition of self, which is about this place, and only this place which is really quite fascinating. And I think Livy is doing something interesting here by tapping into that as well, definitely.

Dr Rad 49:51
And so even though this might be a speech invented for Camillus by Livy, maybe May, May. See at the same time the stuff that Camillus is referring to as examples of things that are particularly tied to Rome. As you’ve just say, they are definitely of tremendous antiquity to the Roman people. You know this feast of Jupiter that was held every year, it does go all the way back to a point where we can’t really trace when it started the Palladium. Again, there’s definitely question marks about how Aeneas supposedly brought this to Rome. But nonetheless, the idea of it is something again, that’s it’s quite old. It’s meant to be quite an old example, and it just goes to show some of the stuff that the vessels were put in charge of protecting the vessels themselves, obviously very ancient. You know that there’s a lot of stuff here that he’s tapping into that is so archaic we can’t be 100% sure of the origin these things. So he is tapping into those really, really archaic traditions, including like the lares, for example. You know, when we were talking about religion, the lares, the Romans themselves, didn’t even know exactly when that all began and when that started, and exactly where that came from. They have lots of theories, and some of them are probably tapping into something, but we can’t say for certain this is how it began and this is how it evolved. So he’s bringing in all of that kind of stuff, which makes sense, because at for this time period, obviously that stuff is a little less ancient than it is for someone like Livy writing many years later. And so Camillus goes back and points out there’s just such a contrast he feels between the Romans that he’s addressing now and the ancestors of the Romans who helped to establish these temples, these rites. I mean, they set them up as rituals to be passed down and to be carried out. And what are the current day Romans actually going to do with them? Just leave them, disregard them. He points out exactly what you said. How can they actually move cities and move all this ritual without it ending up being absolutely horrific. I mean, they thought the Gallic sack was bad. That was just after ignoring a couple of things and getting a few things wrong. What are you gonna do now

Dr G 52:13
when you ignore a plebeian, what if you ignore the whole geography of the city? Yeah, exactly, guys, it’s too risky. Yeah.

Dr Rad 52:21
And he also points out the effort they went to to entice Juno over when they conquered they’re like, why did we even try and tempt Juno over to Rome and then build her this whole temple on the Aventine? Why did I just build the temple to Aius Locutius? Why did I found the Capitoline and games if you’re all just gonna leave, because this is all stuff that’s obviously, you know, happening in the city. The vestals always stay in their same place, unless there is an extremely serious enemy attack, like the one that just happened that absolutely forces them to leave the flamen diailis, which, again, we talked about in our episode on religion. As you said, there are so many rules that the Flamen dialis has to follow, including they’re not allowed to sleep outside of Rome even for one night. So how is that going to work if you just want to move to they? Is he just gonna stay there by himself, all alone?

Dr G 53:23
Well, obviously he’s not moving, so, yeah, well, he’ll be there with his wife. So cute. Those two can stay. Everybody else has to move.

Dr Rad 53:34
Yeah, sorry. I probably should actually say, sorry, he Flamen dialis is one of the most important flamens In the Roman system, there are three big ones, and he’s one of the three big ones. Very important, very important. And he says, And what about all the other stuff? What about the pomerium? We have a sacred boundary. Have you not noticed it’s a pretty big deal. We have all these rules about what you can and cannot do inside, outside that line. You know, there’s all these rituals that have to go with making it bigger. What are we going to do about that? How is that all going to work? How does that work if we just going to move posh? What about how the declaration of war happens? That has to do with the pomerium. It has to do with where people meet. It has to do with the curious Comitia. Okay, all the rules around them. How is that all going to happen? How the auspices going to be taken exactly as you highlighted so you and Camillus, you’re not as opposed to each other as you think. We’re in sync, yeah.

Dr G 54:35
Oh, I’m not opposed to Camillus. I just think that you know his story has been overblown

Dr Rad 54:39
for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Now, once again, Camillus tries to anticipate what the tribune is going to come back with, because they haven’t been allowed to say anything yet. It’s just the Camillus show. Still, he thinks his enemies will say, look, it’s not that we’re saying that all of this stuff that you’re highlighting isn’t valid, but we really have no choice. Rome is completely. Be unlivable. Veii is untouched because of the genius way that you managed to take it by that sneaky tunnel and then basically everyone just sort of gave up. Veii is in pretty much perfect, pristine condition. We just have no choice. We have to leave because, you know, what’s the alternative that we rebuild actually go into construction? I don’t think so. But Camilla sees this as just a sneaky excuse, because this question of moving some people to they had existed before the Gallic sack, so they’re just being opportunistic, and he sees through them. He has a completely different perspective to the tribunes. I mean, a more redundant sentence has never been said. He thinks the destruction is actually less reason to leave. Okay? He’s like, no, wait, it would be basically admitting that the goals have won. You know, we we’ve managed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, if we were then to turn around and leave. Now we’re basically giving it right back to them. You know, we’re giving them what they wanted. We’re doing what they were aiming for. It just doesn’t make any sense. He says, Look, I may have massacred all the Gauls that I could see because I’m Camillus, but rumor has it that the Gauls are incredibly numerous. There might be more of them out there. In fact, he’s pretty sure there are. What if they came back? What if another Gallic group came back and found Rome deserted and decided, hey, why don’t we live here? This is a pretty cool place. I can’t believe some idiots just left it here for us to take over, and the Romans would then have to live with the knowledge that they allowed that. Yeah, they let the Gauls just move in, pull up a chair, put their feet up in front of a fire, and live in Rome. He can’t even think of

Dr G 56:55
it very dramatic now, so dramatic.

Dr Rad 57:00
And this is where he also highlights some people that you’ve been talking about. Let’s not ignore the fact that Rome has plenty of enemies that are actually quite close by, the Volscians, the Aequians. They’ve been fighting them for ages. Again, abandoning Rome itself would be just handing them Rome what they’ve been after for seemingly centuries. At this point that cannot be allowed to happen are the Romans seriously okay with all of these suggestions that Camillus has run through just because they can’t be bothered to do some building. It seems insane. Dr G,

Dr G 57:38
it does seem relatively insane, but you could also read this as being like the biggest doubling down argument of all time. It’s like we’ve been here, we got to stay here. We’ve been here, we got to stay here. You know it’s okay to cut your losses, Camillus, so you could move to the next hill over.

Dr Rad 57:56
Absolutely no, no, no, no, never. Camillus thinks it would be more honorable and a preferable situation overall for the Romans just to go back to their roots living in simple, very old fashioned huts, because at least then they’d be near their family deities. They’d be near all the sacred monuments they wouldn’t be. And I quote a nation in exile, which is exactly what they would be if they moved to Vay after all, the Romans had managed to build their city up relatively quickly. Is it really that hard to just do that again. If the Romans, who were their ancestors, could do it, surely, the Romans of his own day, the people that had conquered Veii in the first place, could do it. And let’s not forget that the Capitol and the Citadel, they are still in perfect condition, Dr G, thanks to those valiant defenders of Rome. So they have a good starting position, you know, and they have this really important part of the city this kernel preserved. So that’s something to give them a bit of hope and inspiration.

Dr G 59:10
Surely, I kind of like the idea that Camillus is giving this speech amidst the ruins of Rome, and everybody about him is like, but, buddy, just look at this place. It’s been destroyed.

Dr Rad 59:23
Well, he’s starting, he’s really starting to, he’s starting to lose me a little bit with this part here. Dr G, don’t worry. We are getting somewhat near the end. He then says, Okay, let’s say that I allowed this to happen. Okay, that myself and the very conservative patricians said, Okay, let’s move to they. Is this going to be the way that the Romans conduct themselves all the time? Is this the way you live your life? Fires, not uncommon. What if somebody didn’t watch their fire carefully enough and they caught. Poured on fire, really badly damaged, and Romans all moved there. Are they going to just get up and leave again if he allows them to leave this time? Is it just going to always be on to the next and better thing that hasn’t been burnt down, having no real attachment to where they live? Is this really how they want to live their lives? Do they really value just having, you know, a roof over their heads, more than places with actual meaning to their culture, to their people? Camillus himself, he Dr G values the land, the landscape of Rome. These were the things that he actually missed the most when he was in exile in aedea. It wasn’t the fancy temples, although they’re important because of the gods and all, but he really missed the landscape most of all, and that is something that you cannot transfer. You would miss that in Wow.

Dr G 1:01:02
Now, I mean, Camillus is, it turns out, is a romantic and I had no idea, but you know, his love for the landscape, his love for place, it’s like he’s just stepped out of an early 19th century novel.

Dr Rad 1:01:18
Well, this is where I could spoil it a little bit, even though we’re so close to the end, and say that Livy’s Probably borrowing a little bit from some Greek examples that exist where there are people who give these sorts of speeches about, you know, the beauty of the landscape and, you know, ties to soil and stuff In other sources that would have been available to him at this time.

Dr G 1:01:44
This is shocking news. I know Alert, alert. Tell everybody

Dr Rad 1:01:49
the fact that he’s using his probable education to put this all together. Shocking news, indeed, that’s it, Livy. It’s over now. He also says the gods of Rome and Rome’s ancestors had not just stumbled across this location by accident. It had been obviously deliberately chosen for good reason. It’s amazing. Have they not noticed all the natural advantages that come from this particular place, I mean, the Tiber, dr, G, do we need to actually say the Tiber in order to convince these plebeians to do the right thing? It’s so easy for transport, and they’re not right on the coast. So it’s not super easy for, you know, pirates just to come and raid their city. They’ve got a little bit of protection, and yet, still, the advantage of a river like the Tiber for transport the hills, the healthful Hills all around them. I mean, Rome is just clearly an awesome place. They keep being able to beat the Etruscans, the Volscians, the Aequians, their track record speaks for itself. He also then talks about other important religious moments which really should have already proved that the Romans can’t just get up and leave. And this is where I come to the head, Dr, G, and I hope we’re talking about the same head here.

Dr G 1:03:15
Ooh, well, we’re about to find out, aren’t we? This is

Dr Rad 1:03:19
where he reminds the Romans of the discovery of a human head on the Capitol. Now, was this the head you were referring to? Yes, the head nodding doesn’t fly on a podcast. I’m afraid

Dr G 1:03:33
I know Yes, so yes, definitely the head that is on the Capitol. So this severed head is found when the foundations for the Capitol line are dug up, and this idea is then translated in Roman understanding in that Rome will be the place that becomes the head of Italy itself. It becomes a symbolic thing. So this is part of an idea that goes back to really archaic Roman times, that this is the spot where the city needs to be. It’s not just about the birds that Romulus saw. It’s also about the physicality of this place. And that idea is also tied to, again, that idea of the sacred fire of Vesta, where the fire has to be in a certain location the Capitolini Hill, has revealed a severed head, which helps us to understand that the Capitolini is incredibly important and must be looked after at all costs. And it was during the Gallic sack even and really honing in on that idea that physicality is everything to the Roman definition. So it’s just reiterating the same point. And Camillus has been doing this in this speech as well. He’s really nailing it with all of these details. It’s like there’s no way we could do these things anywhere else. What could possibly happen? If we leave, it will be a disaster. That’s what will happen. Yes, everything about Rome is about here.

Dr Rad 1:05:05
Yes. And he, once again, brings up the flame of Vesta in connection to things like the head that was found on the Capitol. Again, it’s not something that can just be moved. The Goddess wants it where, if she wants it, he can’t just move it around. It’s not a candle, guys. So he goes through all these sorts of things, and he and I think he’s finally run out of examples, run out of steam. You’ll be relieved to know Dr G Camillus speech is finally over. He has convinced them with this plethora of examples of why Rome is the best. Nobody beats it. You can’t just move to Veii. So the Roman people agree with him, particularly the points about religion. That’s what’s really swayed them. Their whole relationship with the state gods, personal gods, it’s all very overpowering for them. So he has won the day. I’m sure you’re not surprised after the force with which he delivered that argument.

Dr G 1:06:01
You were channeling Camillus. But the real

Dr Rad 1:06:03
clincher came during a senate meeting. So they were debating things in the curio hostilia and some cohorts of Roman soldiers came back from guard duty. What are they guarding? I have to ask. I mean, it’s a city in ruins, the population, I suppose whatever’s left all that gold,

Dr G 1:06:22
yeah, that pile of wood over there that was burnt.

Dr Rad 1:06:25
Yeah, they happened to be traveling through the forum. When they reached the comitium, one of the centurions was heard to ask the standard bearer. So the standards are very important to the Romans. They’re not just a marker of, hey, this is this group of soldiers, they come to have, like a sort of spiritual significance for the Romans, so very important, he turns around and asks the standard bearer to place his standard down in that place which he refers to as the best place to remain. The Senate see this as an omen that the gods are trying to tell them where they should live. So they obviously still had, even though Livy says Camillus’ speech was so convincing, they’re apparently still talking about this point they have the doubt.

Dr G 1:07:08
Yeah, there are things to chat about here. It’s a debate, yes, so the

Dr Rad 1:07:12
Senate come flooding out after they’ve heard this incidental remark about the best place to remain, and they proclaim right there and then that this is the way they have been shown the way. And all the commoners who are just flocking about, they also join in the celebration, and they’re like, yes, yes, this is the way. They’re thrilled with the decision that the Senate has made that they’re going to stay in Rome, and this is when, in Livy’s account, Rome finally starts to be rebuilt. I guess while they’ve been debating, they’ve been doing nothing. They’ve just been living in the ruins. Nothing like animals.

Dr G 1:07:53
We can’t We can’t do anything until we’ve made a decision. Guys, hold off on the rebuilding. We’ve got to decide where we’re doing that. So don’t waste your time. This story also comes up in plutarch’s account. So he gives this sense that Camillus gives this rousing speech, although I haven’t looked into all of the details of whether he recounted the speech itself, because I was focusing on Diodorus instead of Plutarch here, but he does have the moment where Camillus hands the floor over to the first senator, where it’s like, okay, well, that’s my speech. How are you going to vote? And it’s this guy, Lucius Lucretius, who sees the standard bearer walk past, is given the command to put it in the best place. And that’s the thing that turns Lucius vote essentially where he’s like, Well, the gods have revealed that sign to us. I’m going with the gods. And that makes that brings all of this together, because Camillus is really emphasizing the divine aspect here, and Rome’s connection to place. All of a sudden, the standard, which, as you’ve mentioned, is a sacred object and does have a ritual significance about it as well, seeing it being placed right outside where the meeting is happening, and having a sense that that’s the best place for the standard. And it’s like, okay, we all need to do this. And once one guy votes a particular way, there is no secret ballots in Senate voting. Everybody’s then openly voting. And usually the weight of the first senator is quite significant, because they’re usually the oldest or the most prestigious, and it just flows from there. So Camillus gets the job done. They’re going to stay in Rome, absolutely.

Dr Rad 1:09:43
And as you say, the first senator, if that’s the account that Plutarch goes with, that makes total sense. I mean, that’s where Augustus kind of draws some of his influence from, as well. This idea of being the first man to speak, because once you’ve spoken, and you’re the person with the most auctoritus, probably the most experienced, therefore. Or and you’re probably an old gent, people are going to bow to the weight of your opinion, because you’re obviously someone who’s highly respected in the Roman community. His name is not specifically mentioned in my account, but certainly the idea is that Camillus has given a very convincing speech, and they’re just wrapping up the details, and then this omen is given. This is where Livy mentions something which most people find hilarious, which is that he says that this is why Rome is very higgledy, piggledy in his own day. He says, Yeah, look, Rome is a bit of a hot mess in my day, and that’s because of this. Basically we have the reference to the formal state rebuilding program. Again, very funny, if you think about it, given where we’re at in Rome’s history, we’ve got the tiles being provided. The people are told they can just help themselves to whatever stone and wood they need. But in Livy’s account, they are given a very tight deadline of just a year. We’ve got to rebuild this whole city in just a year, guys, because otherwise, this analytic way that Livy’s writing just isn’t gonna work. We want to move on from this whole scenario. You’ve got one year and so snappy. Guys keep it snappy. Yeah, it means that the streets become overcrowded. Things aren’t necessarily set up in the most logical way. They’re not carefully planning out exactly how the city should look. Afterwards, they’re just basically grabbing vacant land and being like mine, I’m going to build here. This is my spot. Finders keepers, losers, weepers. And therefore, by the time you get to Livy’s day, Rome is a mess. Pretty much no one believes this explanation at all for why Rome is overcrowded or not particularly well planned, it’s probably to do with the fact that Rome just expanded in a somewhat haphazard fashion, and people who live in Sydney can appreciate how that might happen to a city, and the influence of, say, the Greeks, with their ideas of City Planning, probably hadn’t really reached Rome before. The core of it had been set up in this kind of chaotic way, and yeah, it was just kind of left to develop from there.

Dr G 1:12:10
Yeah, it does not ring very persuasively in our source material to be like we told the people that it’s a state run rebuilding program, but we didn’t actually tell them where they could build. We just said, here’s some tiles. Knock yourselves out, and it’s been chaos ever since. Now. You would think if it was a state run system, that maybe they’d be more systematic, but apparently not. And I think there is something to be said for the fact that Rome is way too early in its history to have a coherent sense of its own organization, and that’s not the sort of thing that the Senate or the elites have ever been particularly across that’s a very bureaucratic way to think about city creation. And if we’re thinking about examples from Australia, Melbourne is a highly planned city, yes, but Melbourne was also not the city that was started first when Europeans decided to turn up and pretend that Australia was inhabited by nobody, they started in Sydney, and Sydney has a very organic structure to it. A lot of the streets follow the lines of the traditional owners, paths that they used. So we know that it’s not following a grid like structure. And certainly we live in a city that does not present any kind of grid most of the time. But Melbourne, for instance, really does. And that has both pros and cons. In terms of both cities, there are some elements of an organically grown city that really work, and there are some that really don’t. And Rome is very organic, even today, it is very organic structure about it, if you look at the maps. So Rome never gets over this. And even when it does become more organized under imperial rule, the chaotic aspects are never really going to go anywhere. I think this might be the spot to wrap up this episode.

Dr Rad 1:14:08
Now, I think this might be the way to wrap up. I wanted to get through Camila’s speech so I can finally put 390 BCE behind me. Put it to bed. Yeah, the one thing I will say before we wrap up is just highlighting, again, how much Livy is probably drawing from other writers in sort of his inspiration of putting this speech together. This is obviously a big set piece for him, because Camillus is his hero. He wants to show how pious Camillus is, and so this speech is a moment to really showcase that, as if his actions don’t speak loud enough. So as well as those Greek examples I mentioned which he might be borrowing for parts of the speech there, but people also think he might have been influenced a bit by Cicero in terms of the speech’s construction and that sort of thing. And one thing which I did find interesting in the commentary that I was looking at is this idea that the move to ve might have been something. Thing that was perhaps added in a bit later in the traditions around the Gallic sack. It might not have been something that existed from the beginning, even though you’d think they might go together, because obviously the fall of Veii and then the fall of Roma so close together chronologically. But it might have been something that was added in a little bit later. And one of the reasons, perhaps, that Livy goes down the path that he does is that during the late Republic, there was this period called the Social Wars, where there was fighting going on between within Italy, basically. And it was about a whole range of issues, which I won’t bother to go into in full detail here. Certainly it was a contentious time where it was people were trying to decide, obviously, who belong, who’s going to belong in this system, and who wasn’t, and who was getting rights and who wasn’t. And in this time period, part of the Roman response to this revolt by other Italians was to really dwell on the significance of the site of Rome itself, to try and emphasize that that was so important. Because, of course, as you can imagine, in a rebellion, the people who were not on their side trying to establish like a rival place, you know, and have a rival center that was going to be disconnected from Rome in their own special place. I guess, if you kind of imagine any civil war, like if you think about the north and the south and the US Civil War or whatever, you can kind of understand how all of a sudden, different places take on different meanings when you’ve got people who are suddenly divided, who were once living in relative harmony. And so it may be partly some of the traditions that were developed in that time that have somewhat influenced the speech that Livy devises for Camillus in this moment here.

Dr G 1:16:50
Very interesting, well, and that is just a really early teaser listeners for the Social Wars, which we will come to in 20 or 30 years?

Dr Rad 1:17:01
Yeah, exactly. It happened till the first century. So, yeah, don’t, don’t even think about it again. I’m just telling you. It was a conflict. It happened in Italy.

Dr G 1:17:11
So, but yes, there are, like, relative historical concerns in the Roman imagination about what it means to be Roman and to be in this space. And I think it’s quite reasonable that they would influence something like this, largely potentially created speech by Livy.

Dr Rad 1:17:29
And there was also apparently a suggestion by one of the Gracchi, I think of doing something with Carthage as well when Rome conquered that so there are influences that are probably coming through Livy’s account, because he’s writing so much later, but we can’t be sure exactly what. But yeah,

Dr G 1:17:49
oh, well, this has been a very interesting conversation.

Dr Rad 1:17:53
It is you can really see the differences in our accounts coming out in this time period. Because, yeah, all the stuff that you talked about is going to take me another several because this speech, this speech is there.

Speaker 1 1:18:07
I mean, yeah, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:18:08
Livy said you can’t move on. Dr, rad, not yet. I

Dr G 1:18:10
mean, Camillus wasn’t even in Rome, so. Dr, G, that means

Dr Rad 1:18:15
it is time for the partial pick.

Dr G 1:18:23
The partial pick, we are going to judge Rome against five criteria in which they could possibly win 10 gold Eagles if they perform very well. And our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 1:18:38
Who This is tricky, because your account does have some military action, yeah, but mine does not. We are

Dr G 1:18:45
full of military clout over here. If diodosticulus is to be believed, it’s just one battle after another, and Camillus is a blazing glory of victory.

Dr Rad 1:18:54
Well, I mean, do we? We went with Livy’s account last time and we gave him high points in certain categories because we were believing the account. I’m happy to do the same here, if you would like Excellent.

Dr G 1:19:04
Well, Camillus smashed it out of the ballpark, didn’t he? Not only did he take,

Dr Rad 1:19:09
how long I’ve waited for you to say this word,

Dr G 1:19:12
I mean, he took down the Volscians. He stopped the Aequians from doing some stuff in the South. He stopped the Etruscans from doing something in the North. He got back the gold. It’s basically a 10 out of 10.

Dr Rad 1:19:26
Let’s do it 10 out of 10 for the possibly equally problematic account of Diodorus. Say nothing.

Dr G 1:19:36
Say nothing. Our second category

Dr Rad 1:19:39
is Diplomacy. I don’t think so really. I mean, if we go with your account, it’s just warfare. If we go with my account, Camillus is basically talking the whole time, and no one’s responding.

Dr G 1:19:52
He is, and that’s not really diplomacy, because he’s just talking to other Romans. I think has to be a zero, dr, G, well, that’s that. Okay. Hmm, Expansion, nope.

Dr Rad 1:20:02
Well, in your account, I mean, they’re retaking a colony, but I when, when was it last? Not theirs? Wait, that doesn’t make sense.

Dr G 1:20:14
When are they How long have they had this colony?

Dr Rad 1:20:16
Yeah, like, how long has this

Dr G 1:20:18
been an issue? I don’t know. I don’t know, and I don’t think it’s really expanding to take something back, but it’s like, this place is like a hot potato, yeah, they’re just playing catch up on something that they thought was theirs. Yeah? Okay, so I feel like

Dr Rad 1:20:32
that we’re gonna give them nothing for it, or we’re just gonna give them, like, our point. I suppose we could give them our point. I feel like it matters, you know? I mean, I don’t think this is something that was taken by the Gauls, for example. So this is something that they’re legitimately retaking, re establishing control over. Yeah, yeah, all right, 1.1 point.

Dr G 1:20:53
Okay, Virtus.

Dr Rad 1:20:57
I don’t think so. Because even though Camillus says some impressive things in your account, there’s no like, particular moment where I’d say it’s weirdos, it’s more just impressive generalship. Yes, there’s no detail. Where’s the detail Diodorus?

Dr G 1:21:11
Yeah, then there’s no particular story where Diodorus Siculus goes into detail about a moment that Camillus has in battle. So and in your version of events, he’s really just having a bit of a chit chat that goes on for too long. So

Dr Rad 1:21:30
I’ll have you know, I’ve worked myself up into

Dr G 1:21:32
quite a sweat. I can see you fanning yourself, yeah?

Dr Rad 1:21:35
Oh my god, it’s so hot in Australia. Guys, it’s summer here when we’re recording this probably may come out to winter, but just, you know, we are sweating through it.

Dr G 1:21:43
Yeah, I’m very shiny on the screen, but yeah, hopefully I sound very calm, cool and collected on the audio.

Dr Rad 1:21:53
I actually can feel myself getting dumber as we’ve gone through this episode, because I’m getting so hot.

Dr G 1:21:58
Well, I’d hate to say it’s the Camillus rubbing off on you, but

Dr Rad 1:22:04
All right, so that’s a zero. Then for virtus as well,

Dr G 1:22:06
it’s a zero, yeah, the final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:22:10
I feel like we have something to work with here. Dr G, I feel like the military victories on your side, that’s got to be good for the citizens. And then on my side, they seem happy with Camilius’ decision, even though they were all totally prepared to just walk away and go to Veii at the beginning.

Dr G 1:22:28
Yeah, certainly in the accounts that I have read as well for this is once the decision comes through that there will be no moving to Veii, everybody just sort of is like, okay, and starts to chip in with the rebuilding process, and doesn’t cause much of a stink about it.

Dr Rad 1:22:43
Yeah, look, I mean, if you think back to the previous accounts, where we’ve had this question about they it was controversial. It’s not like all plebeians were on the side of going to Veii there definitely was division in the Roman population. So I guess they’re just tapping into that. They’re only convincing a certain amount of people, the rest of them were already kind of on their side. Yeah.

Dr G 1:23:05
So I mean, obviously it’s a good time for Roman citizens, in the sense that the Gauls have gone and it seems to be a good time, because regardless of how it has happened, they’ve either retained the gold or they’ve gotten back the gold, and they have decided to rebuild, which, I mean, is probably good for citizen morale. I would say

Dr Rad 1:23:27
they can rebuild her stronger, faster, exactly. So, yes, I agree with you. I feel like it’s going to be fairly high. You know, the matrons are honored as well. That’s pretty cool. So I don’t know. I mean but, but, but, but they have just lived through a siege, and they are allegedly living in a heap of rubble.

Dr G 1:23:47
Well, sure, but like, there’s living in a heap of rubble when there’s no enemy around, and then there’s still being under a siege, and surely the former has got to be better.

Dr Rad 1:23:57
Yeah, and look with Camillus back on the scene, people must be happy. So I feel like maybe like a six.

Dr G 1:24:04
Yeah, I was gonna say a seven. So I think we’re pretty

Dr Rad 1:24:08
I could go with seven. I could be persuaded to a seven. All right, all right. Dr, G, that means that the Romans have managed to accrue a grand total of 18 golden eagles, which was not expecting, given that I thought I was pretty much just going to be speechifying at you.

Dr G 1:24:26
Look, I enjoyed every moment. It was full of drama and Camillus iterated some points very delightfully. And, you know, there were Vestal Virgins, I can’t complain.

Dr Rad 1:24:37
Look, if we needed any convincing that Rome is awesome and that we should continue to podcast for the next 50 years so we can tell her history. I’m convinced Camillus has done the job. There is no place for us in the room.

Dr G 1:24:53
Yeah, we Yeah. Whenever there is a doubt, we will return to this speech as Camillus once said, Yes.

Dr Rad 1:25:00
Yes, there’s no place like Rome that might have to be the title of this episode.

Dr G 1:25:05
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure, as always. Thank you. Dr G,

Dr Rad 1:25:18
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of The Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive to find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi. But you can also support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to Jonathan Lance who joined our Patreon one year ago this month. However, if you are trying to rebuild your home after a barbarian invasion, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 171 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 6 appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

You know that the Partial Historians can’t resist talking about Ancient Rome on film, so we were thrilled to chat to Dr Jeremiah McCall about his book, Swords and Cinema.

The cover of Swords and Cinema by Dr Jeremiah McCall

Dr Jeremiah McCall (or DMac as his students call him) is a teacher at Cincinnati Country Day School in Ohio with a PhD in Ancient History. 

Along with an interest in Roman military and political systems in the Republic, he has done a lot of work on pedagogy of using video games to learn about history, publishing Gaming the Past: Using Video Games to Teach Secondary History in 2022. 

He divides his research time between historical game studies and Roman history. Dr McCall’s other publications include The Cavalry of the Roman Republic (2002); the Sword of Rome (2012), Clan Fabius: Defenders of Rome (2018) and Rivalries that Destroyed the Roman Republic (2022). 

We will touch on the battle scenes and depiction of the Roman military in all your favourite Roman movies and TV shows.

You will need your popcorn for this special episode!

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the partial historians.

Speaker 1 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged, and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Speaker 1 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:54
Hello and welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr rad,

Dr G 1:02
and I am Dr G,

Dr Rad 1:05
Dr G, we are joined by somebody who shares a passionate interest of mine, actually a couple, I think, probably as well as yours. We are very lucky to be joined by Dr Jeremiah McCall, or DMac, as his students call him, which I think makes him very much at home on this particular show. He is a teacher at Cincinnati Country Day School in Ohio, and he has a PhD in ancient history, along with an interest in Roman military and political systems in the Republic. He has done a lot of work on pedagogy, of using video games to learn about history, publishing Gaming the Past: Using video games to teach secondary history in 2022. He divides his research time between historical game studies and Roman history. Dr McCall’s other publications include The Cavalry of the Roman Republic in 2002, The Sword of Rome in 2012, Clan Fabius: Defenders of Rome in 2018 and Rivalries that destroyed the Roman Republic in 2022 but today we are here to talk all things, movies and the military. Welcome. D Mac, thanks.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 2:21
It’s great to be here. I’m really excited to talk about this.

Dr Rad 2:24
Oh, we are very excited. I always cannot turn down an opportunity to talk about Rome on film.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 2:32
It’s interesting the book, I gather the book did well enough, right? Like I didn’t make a fortune. Buy me a coffee, coffee, and that’s better than buying a book, but I gather it did well enough that they put it into a paperback, but it’s one that really I haven’t gotten to talk to you about a lot, and I certainly thought it was kind of a fun idea, so I’m glad to be here. So

Dr Rad 2:53
can you please maybe start by giving us a bit of an overview of the development of the Roman army, because your interest in this book is all about the military and the Roman army and how they appear on screen as well as the Greeks, but we’re just going to ignore that part for today. So maybe knowing a little bit about the Roman military would help our listeners sort of get situated.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 3:12
Sure, absolutely. I guess one of the things I should say about the book is there are lots of different ways one can approach film and history, and I was absolutely not approaching it as a trained scholar of film in history. I was approaching it as a bunch of years sitting around on a couch having a beer or something like that, and you’re watching the movie, and somebody’s like, Oh, that’s so fake. Or yeah, that’s how it really was. And, you know, writing a book for that just sort of like, okay, they’re films, and some of them are really great films. But you know, are they depicting battle? Are they depicting armies and soldiers and fighting in ways that kind of fit the evidence? So the Roman army of the Republic, if you go back, so I was, I was saying to Dr G A little earlier that I had just listened to part of your we’re too episode. So if listeners are kind of in the fourth century with you about to attack, they at that point, sort of in the late three hundreds. We think that Rome had a military that was essentially like most of the Greek city states. So it was called a phalanx. I’m not sure if your readers are familiar with it, but basically the idea is you got your citizen soldiers together, and they had big, round shields and stabby spears and maybe a helmet or something else like that, but they lined up in these sort of large formations, with the idea being that it’s kind of like a shield wall. Everybody covered themselves and the people next to them, and phalanxes don’t turn well, and they don’t go on rough ground well. And the only thing they’re really, really good at is kind of moving forward and going stabby, stabby, at anything that they see in front of them. So that seems to be. Earliest Roman military system, and like the Greeks, they divided it up so that your wealth determined whether you would fight in the Phalanx, or whether you might be a slinger or something like that. But eventually, and we don’t know why, right? I mean, the thing about the Roman Republic is our evidence is so bad for most things that we’re looking at. Amen, yeah, right, exactly. Well, you two are so courageously going through, you know, military tribunes with consular powers and all that stuff. And I’m like, oh my goodness, yeah, wouldn’t it be nice if we really knew about that? I think that’s our conclusion most episodes, yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s important, right? I was, I was saying, before we started recording, you know, I took notes for this, and, and, and you both know, as you’re, you know, with your own PhDs in the field, it’s not about instant recall or memorizing facts, right? It’s about being able to look at the evidence and ask the questions and, and sort of go from there, you know, point of fact, I had to review to make sure that I had my Roman army talk in good shape. Anyways, going back to the Phalanx, somewhere in the late three hundreds, three elevens, often given as a date, the Romans seem to have shifted their military away from the Phalanx, and they adopted this system that persisted through most of the Republic, which was called the manipular army, Plutarch and Livy are sources for this. They don’t agree on most of the major points. They’ve got different names, they’ve got different types of units. They’ve got different numbers involved. Bless all the philologists out there that can figure out, you know, who’s got the better source, or something like that. That is beyond me, but this seems to be the basic deal. Basically, you had four legions under the command, each under the command of a council by 311 they had passed a law to do that, apparently. And each of those legions was divided up into maniples. And maniples, I think the word means handful, I believe, or something like that, is where it comes from. But basically we’re a group of soldiers, 120 normally, and then 60 and the smallest side. And so if you had 120 soldiers, I believe, you had 10 maniples of what they called the Hastati. So these were the guys with the big spears that kind of charged forward and stab. Sometimes. They had a pilum, which we’re going to talk a lot about pilam pila today, because they’re not in any of the movies, and I don’t understand why. So the Hastati were the heavy infantry who would start the battle. The principes were behind them, and they were sort of the men in their prime, and they would kind of continue on the battle. And then after them were the triarii, who were probably armed like hoplites, and their job was just, if everything hit the fan, they could sort of form a defensive group. So the idea seems to be that these maniples were arranged in, sort of think about like the five spots on a die. So you have a gap in between each line that’s being filled by a manifold behind it, and we kind of think they fought that way with gaps in their lines, but we don’t really understand how they did. But the thing that the sources seem to agree upon is somehow the back lines were able to relieve the front lines, maybe even in the middle of battle. We’re not entirely sure about that, and that’s something that shows up in the sources, too. Anyway, the manipular army was flexible. It had small units that could go around and do important things on the battlefield. And right, the Romans ended up winning lots and lots and lots and lots of battles.

Dr Rad 8:34
What they did, oh, my god, everybody,

Dr Jeremiah McCall 8:41
it’s so true. Well, it was so funny, because, like, on a certain level, right? The movies all depict the the opponents of the Romans as not being as effective. And I guess that must be true, right? I mean, on some

Speaker 1 8:52
level, on a practical level, it seems like that might be the case. So you mentioned a couple of written sources like Livy and Plutarch when we’re talking about the ways that we start to understand the Roman army is the written source material, the kind of material we’re able to use when we’re evaluating depictions of battles and Roman soldiers on screen. Or are there other sources we should be interested in, and what things do we know very little about?

Dr Jeremiah McCall 9:22
Sure, fantastic. So we’ve got the literary sources right. Livy Polybius, little bit of Plutarch when we start, when we get to the end of the Republic, Caesar, becomes invaluable with his civil war and his and his Gallic Wars. When we get into the Empire, we have tastus talks about military things, and Ammianus Marcellinus on the late end of those things. In all of that, there are no soldiers accounts. We do not have anything that’s coming from people that actually fought in battle, other than as a general, or certainly, at least didn’t fight in the battles they were describing. If you think about the Greeks as a difference, right? We have poetry fragments. We have. Have a historical account written by people who actually did fight in some of their battles. So that’s kind of one of our big things, is we have all these sources, some of them right when you get to Livy, he never participated in a battle in his life, as far as we know. So we have a lot of unexpert people talking about something that they didn’t directly experience. And then there’s all of us, thankfully. So right, not fighting with each other, with with, well, I’m not fighting with anybody with anything but, but certainly not with stab stabby spears and swords and things like that. And so, you know, one of the things that happens is trying to figure out, well, what was this actually like when the stakes were real and people, you know, people were trying to kill each other. Archeological sources almost non existent for the Republic. We would love to have a depiction of what the soldiers, different soldiers in the maniples, look like. There is an altar to demius, ahenobarbus, Bronzebeard in first century, I think early first century, that seems to show a Roman infantry soldier and a Roman cavalry person, but that’s kind of it. When we get to the Empire, we have all of those victory columns, right? And the triumphal arches are like Titus triumphal arch, and it’s Trajan and Marcus Aurelius, right? I think that have the columns. I think Trajan

Speaker 1 11:19
has a column, doesn’t? He doesn’t. Marcus. Marcus Aurelius has a column as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, with the spiraling sort of reliefs, yep.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 11:27
And so they show soldiers in battle, and that helps us a little bit too. So those are kind of our big things, as far as what we have for sources. Now, what don’t we know as a result of that? Well, everything.

Dr Rad 11:39
Damn, let’s just end this podcast right now.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 11:46
Much like Socrates, we are wise and that we know, we know nothing. No, that’s actually, that’s

Dr Rad 11:50
actually wild when you think about it, because the Roman army is obviously such a big part of what people think about when they think of Rome, and generally when we do obviously see Rome appear in the cinema. It is focusing around moments of conflict where there are going to be the spectacular battle scenes. So it is wild to think about how little we actually know.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 12:10
Yeah, so you got to fill in a lot of imagination. And I guess, you know, we’ll talk about that more, but I guess that’s where I kind of come down on these movies, is you’ve got to have some imagination. You can’t, you know, you’ve got to picture this somehow in your head if you’re really going to kind of bring it to life. So what? What do you do when you know nothing other than these, you know, carved in stone figures, absolutely.

Dr Rad 12:30
Well, maybe we should start talking about a real example. And listeners of the show will not be surprised to hear that. We’re going to start with my personal favorite, Spartacus, 1960 now, this is a bit of an unusual one, in the sense that it is set in the late Republic. We don’t have a ton of movies that are set in the Republic, and this obviously details the uprising of the gladiator Spartacus and his war against Rome. However, one of the weird things about this film is that there is a bit of a lack of battle scenes. You know, you might expect, given that this is about a war between a gladiator and Rome, that there’s a lot of battle scenes, but there aren’t a ton. But can you talk us through the way that that final battle scene between the slave army and Crassus Roman forces was represented because that’s perhaps one of the more spectacular sequences. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 13:23
And I really had fun kind of going back. I don’t think I had all the video clips when I wrote the book originally, so it was great going back. And so when you look at Spartacus, yeah, and I think I remember reading about this somewhere, I’m pretty sure they had more battle scenes that they had to cut along the way that.

Dr Rad 13:40
Yeah, it’s part of the very troubled production history of this film. There was a lot of talk about what they were going to film, when they were going to film it. The battle scenes were certainly something that they were going to add some in at the end, because they realized that they hadn’t really shown Spartacus winning and so the Romans being afraid of him didn’t entirely make sense in the way that the film came together. They’re like, Wait, why are they afraid of him? You don’t really see him winning terribly much, but it became part of the incredibly chaotic later production of this film that they didn’t end up getting a ton of them back into the movie. The one that you do see, of course, is Spartacus defeat, which is this battle that we’re talking about, which not everybody in the film was thrilled about. That. That was the big spectacular sequence, because they were trying to build up a Spartacus who was a very impressive military figure in the equal of the Romans. And they felt that by giving all this screen time to his defeat, it again, didn’t quite match up with the portrayal that they were going for.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 14:43
Do I understand correctly? I swear I came across this recently, that there’s also that, you know, sort of cold war mentality, that there was a fear that Spartacus could represent, sort of the proletariat forces, kind of triumphing over the good imperialist America. I’m sorry, Romans, no.

Speaker 1 14:59
Yeah, we can’t have that happening under no circumstances.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 15:03
Oh, I’m going to be so good and not talk about politics today.

Dr Rad 15:08
Oh, no, look, I think there definitely could have been a bit of that going on. But of course, one of the things that’s interesting about Spartacus is the fact that so many people who were working on this film were communists or ex communists. So Dalton Trumbo, obviously was one of the people fighting to show Spartacus as an impressive military figure. And Howard Fast, whose novel The movie was based on, had very deliberately set up Spartacus and the slaves as a kind of proto communist society, where it was very ideal and utopian. In his novel, that was a very clear message, if you read the book that this is based on, so they’re probably actually not wrong, isn’t it?

Dr Jeremiah McCall 15:50
It’s fascinating how it’s all a playground. I, you know, I I came into reception studies, really long way around that wasn’t my training. And then I got into video games and history. But as you both know, as teachers, as high school educators, you’re both high school educators, right? I thought, I thought I got that right. Reception studies is everything we do, right? What’s a student? But you know, you know, learning with you and studying with you, and then you have this interesting example of, well, how do they take this, this evidence? How do they take their readings and their discussion and their video games and stuff like that? So, yeah, it’s all reception studies sort of on a certain level. Okay, so last battle scene, right? Spartacus and his army are up at the top of the hill. Crassus and his army, his army has sort of paraded by as he’s sort of sitting on the side watching, and that’s probably reasonably accurate, since the generals wouldn’t necessarily be in the front as they were doing that. But basically, you’ve got this mash up. There’s a scholar in Manchester, I think Manchester in Britain, Richard Cole, who’s been doing some work on video games as historical video games as mashups and Spartacus, the battle is definitely a mash up. You’ve got, first of all, the classic, you’ve got the sculpted body armor made out of leather with all the muscles. Not ever do we have any evidence that any average soldier was wearing these. They’re probably expensive. They may not even have been that comfortable. So they’re wearing those they’ve got the Taru gaze right the letter, leather flaps going down to guard their abdomen, and that’s all mash up. The shields are mostly straight instead of curved, and so their helmets are kind of okay, but otherwise, it’s a little Greek, it’s a little Etruscan. It’s a little Roman as they’re going on. And leather armor seems to be a fascination for lots of filmmakers, and they just didn’t wear it for good reason. It doesn’t stop a spear or a sword or anything like that. Don’t you think it must be about what props they had, you know, like what they had on set, what they were able to kind of get?

Dr Rad 17:59
Oh, they like reusing things. They

Dr G 18:02
definitely like reusing things. Yeah. So they’ve

Dr Jeremiah McCall 18:05
got, they’ve got their Gladius looking swords, um, so that’s okay, um, but the spears that they have are clearly thrusting spears. Now here is nerd 101, on spears. Okay, if, if the diameter of the spear shaft is like an inch and a half or two inches, and it is straight the long way, and you have kind of like a broad shade, broad tip on it. Then it is a spear, and you’re using it to stab somebody and keep in your hands. But the Romans used the pilum, which was this kind of specialized javelin, where you throw it, and it was made of a wooden shaft and socket, and then it had kind of like a really thin spit of metal, and then a really kind of fine tip. And the idea was they would throw it before they went into battle, as far as our sources can tell us, and it did a devastating job, demoralizing enemies. And sometimes, if it went through shields, it bent very easily. And we don’t know whether they plan for it to bend or it was just was just luck on their part, but it goes through the shields and bends, and then you’ve got this six to 10 pound weight holding down your shield as well, so it makes it harder to defend yourself. And listeners will have to report into you, and you’ll have to get back to me. I don’t think there’s a single movie that’s tried to represent

Dr Rad 19:19
this. I can’t think of one. No,

Dr G 19:22
I’m keen for details. Get in touch listeners.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 19:26
I think it must be really well. See today though, they have all the special effects, but it must be really hard to represent a bunch of javelins, like going through the air and people. So usually what they end up doing is sort of just a shield smash instead. So they don’t, so they have stabby spears, they don’t have pila as they’re going in the part that kind of fascinated me as I was looking at it. There’s some promotional materials that talk about how the Roman was organized. A Roman army was organized in the in the first century, and they had shifted. The short version is they shifted from maniples to. Cohorts. The cohorts were uniform soldiers. They were all heavy infantry, equipped and armed the same, but they still seem to have that gap system where the rear lines could kind of support the front lines. Kubrick goes for this. He has 10 units, as you should have a Roman legion should have 10 cohorts, and he’s got 10 units, and there’s a gap between them, they look like the five sided dice, except for there’s actually four rows of them, which no source ever attests to, but he’s got four rows of them. And they march up, and then when they get to the bottom of the hill, the front line extends so the two cohorts are in front extend so that they become a solid line of soldiers. And then they march up the hill, and the rest sit back. And I don’t know if they’re taking tea or having a holiday or something like that, but they’re not doing the thing that you would expect them to do, which is support the front lines. So I love the fact that they tried to do something with these gaps in the mandibles, and they tried to do something with formation. And I think when it comes to sort of the grandeur of the Roman army. They did a really cool job. But this is not how it happened. This is clearly not how it happened, but that’s actually one of the areas we don’t know a lot about. We don’t know how it happened, but it doesn’t seem to be this. Suppose you were a soldier going up a hill, and you saw some people at the top of the hill, and they had these logs, and they were standing there, and they lit the logs on fire. Okay, so you’ve got the flaming logs and you’re at the bottom of the hill, and they’re at the top of the hill, and they’re still holding the flaming logs, and they seem to have two people on each side to drag them. What

Speaker 1 21:31
do you do? Well, I wouldn’t be woken up that hill. And I was

Dr Jeremiah McCall 21:36
trying to think about because on the one hand, it’s like, right, why are you? It’s like, No, I think I’ll just wait down

Speaker 1 21:42
here. Yeah. Like, I can wait it out. Those logs will eventually burn through. It will take days, but I can wait to the logs are gone, and then I’ll go up the hill Exactly.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 21:52
So then, then it’s like, well, maybe the commander made them go up. Now, I don’t know we actually, I think we have, like, maybe one reference to incendiary items being used in any of these battles. And believe it or not, I thought this was I thought this was absolutely false. I couldn’t believe it, but I was researching a Roman video game, Rome, total war once. And apparently there is a testimony, I think Appian says it at once, a flaming pig. Yes, I’m a vegetarian. I’m not a big fan of lighting pigs on fire. Yeah, me too, yeah. So anyway, so, yeah. So they’re going up that hill, and the Rolling Rock logs come down, and much as you would expect, they burn people. And some of the soldiers jump over the logs, and some of them get rolled over by the logs. Logs done damage, done. Front row not supported. Then you basically have the troops all run down the hill, getting to each other, and you have a brawl. Military History, Roman, military, well, any ancient military history for at least the past 140 years, it’s been seriously questioned whether armies, when they got into battle, kind of broke up into these groups that you see, pretty much you see it all over Spartacus, right? There is all doing duels, this little clump, that little clump, right? And so on. And the argument was made a long time ago, in the 1870s by a French artillery officer. I think that if all you did was have the two sides kind of mix it up and Brawl, then the larger force would always win, because there’d always be more people right in in the bar fight as it were, not, not that I have any experience with bar fights,

Speaker 1 23:27
but I think that’s one of these things where our inability as modern people, living in very lush lifestyles, where we’re Not conscripted into armed forces, but we study history is, how do we understand these things? And I think this is where people who have been in military settings and do military history become highly valuable, because they do see how it works and how it doesn’t work and what would immediately make sense and not make sense in these contexts.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 24:02
Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. It’s really stretching your mind into something, into an area that most of us just have no experience with, gratefully, certainly. So they’re all brawling. We’ll get into it a little more in some of the other films about how they deal with that idea of combat. But Spartacus, they’re all, they’re all duking it out. And then you have the aristeia, right? You have the courageous individual Spartacus going through, and he’s lopping off. He’s stabbing people. I forgot the part where he chops off somebody’s arm and they show and I was like, oh, that’s 1960 special effects. That’s good stuff, right there. So he cuts off somebody’s arm, and he stabs somebody, and he’s he takes them all out. And there’s a lot of focus on that, and there’s a lot of room. There’s so much room to just sort of wander around with your horse and stuff like that. It’s like, how did you get these 10s of 1000s of soldiers to come together and fight? But there’s all this room. It all stays very. Open. It’s all very much a brawl. It’s not really going to help us visualize first century battles very well at all. I love that they tried it. I think that kudos goes to anybody who tries it. I think one of the limitations that we often don’t think about with with movies is everything’s on screen, so you’ve got to have an answer to everything. How did they fight? How did they march? What did they wear? What were they wearing? Because you like, I mean, we get away with writing, right? We can write a sentence and leave 1000s of details out and nobody necessarily notices because the sentence is so self contained. You can’t just have like a big blank screen with just like a Roman standing there and nothing else you got to fill it in,

Speaker 1 25:43
awaiting historians details come back. Right, exactly. No.

Dr Rad 25:48
I mean, I think, I think that raises such a good point, because we’ve been talking a lot about gladiator movies, obviously with Gladiator two coming out recently, and one of the things that we often talk about is the fact that, obviously in modern retellings of gladiator movies, particularly like, think about the Russell Crowe ones. I should have called them the Ridley Scott ones. Sorry, sorry, Australian loyalty. Exactly. We do tend to see gladiators fighting without a helmet, particularly if they’re the star of the movie, and that’s because they’re being paid millions of dollars as an actor, for us to actually see them, and we want to see the emotion, you want to see the terror. We want to see them scowling at each other and all of that kind of stuff. But that obviously, genuinely rarely happened. If you were Gladiator, you generally had some sort of head covering on because, you know, protecting the head that seems to be a priority. I feel like it’s the same thing sometimes with these battle sequences, with the brawling in that the person who’s shooting the film wants to be able to get in there, close and see, you know, some of the main characters duking it out with each other, because they don’t necessarily really care about what else is happening around them. They’re focusing in on the main characters, you know, Crassus versus Spartacus, and that’s what we as the audience also kind of want to see. So I feel like cinematically, that’s probably more a reflection of what they want to deliver to us emotionally, and that’s perhaps why they don’t really think about the accuracy of what’s going on around these people.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 27:15
I think that that’s a really good take. I hadn’t, I hadn’t quite thought about that way, but you must be right, certainly about the helmets, but I think you must be right too about the having the space to be able to maneuver the cameras and things like that. You know what it is the ultimate effect in Spartacus gets you very much at something that. Okay, quick disclaimer, everything I say is based on 25 years old research and occasionally writing new books. So anything I say can be, I’m sure, contradicted and countered and told that I’m silly by whoever the current crop of historians is on this that being said least 20 years ago, conventional wisdom was that Homeric fighting might have been like this, where you have the heroes. I mean, obviously the Iliad depicts it as the heroes fighting and the soldiers mobbing around. But apparently there’s some scholarship that suggests that there is something like that going on that you have these sort of Battle Plan leaders who are better equipped and more focused on and a bunch of supporting soldiers. Spartacus, really kind of does that sort of that Homeric fighting, and he’s not as cool as Diomedes because he doesn’t stab a god. But, you know,

Dr Rad 28:29
yeah, I also like to think that with Spartacus, I feel like the reason why some stories tend to make it into TV and film multiple times is partly because the source material that it’s drawing from is naturally more cinematic in the way that it’s described than others. So for example, I feel like Herodotus, the way that he writes, you can literally lift dialog out of that and put it on the screen, and that’s been done in 300 and I feel like it’s the same thing with Spartacus, because of the way that Plutarch writes, there are these inherently cinematic moments, and one of them is Spartacus supposed death scene. We do have this description of him in that final battle, heroically trying to cut his way. You know, through to Crassus. You know him being protected by some of his most loyal adherents. And gradually they’re cut down one by one, until finally, Spartacus is dealt a death blow. I mean, that is screaming out for Hollywood, and that’s, I think, what we’re kind of seeing on the screen here. Now, did Plutarch know what he was talking about? Probably not.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 29:34
I know. I know you both have found this to be the case because I’ve listened enough. And you know, as far as like looking at the reconstructions that these ancient sources give and how little they’re based upon. And I, I think at the end of the day, it’s one of the things that makes somebody like me think that video game and movie adaptations and scholars like you two as well are reasonable because we’re doing everything from. Secondary sources from people who had not a clue and were at least 500 years after the fact, and not always. I mean, sometimes they were only 100 years after the fact. It doesn’t seem so strange to take, you know? I mean, I think the battle scene in Spartacus is at least as is least as likely to be authentic as Plutarch version of what’s going on there. Neither of them is really giving you much of a version of what the mechanics are. Wow.

Dr G 30:26
Okay, so turning away from Spartacus, because I know Dr Rad could stay here for a whole hour, if not longer, I want to sort of switch focus to a much more recent adaptation. HBO is Rome, which I still love after all of this time. So I think the first season aired in like 2005 which is probably showing its age at this point. But it’s a very different time period for bringing a Roman army onto the screen. It’s post dating Gladiator, which it obviously sort of kicked off in everybody’s minds. Oh, we need to think about Rome and Rome on screen. But how does HBO is Rome fair when depicting Roman soldiers?

Dr Jeremiah McCall 31:09
Yeah, it’s a really great question. Yeah, that was such a fantastic series and and they stopped.

Dr G 31:15
I was so sad. Yeah

Dr Rad 31:17
Capitalism ruins the party again.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 31:22
Okay, so when you, when you get, when you get to HBO, is wrong. I think there are some problems, I think, with what they do, but, and I know nothing about who was behind the filming or the directing, or the or anything like that, but you really start to see a vision of a Roman battle that I think becomes useful. You know, we talk sometimes about, can you learn from this movie, or what can you learn from that movie, or stuff like that? And I guess I’m always reminded, right, that, and I think this is a Plutarch quote, but it’s the you’re not a vessel to be filled with education, right? You’re, you’re a set of logs that are supposed to be sparked and, you know, and lighting a fire. And so I wouldn’t want my students to be passively learning something ever if I can avoid it, I would want to be actively engaged in it. And so I think the interesting question is, do these films allow us, if we’re interested in either because we’re professional historians, or we’re nerding out, or whatever it is that gives us joy, do they help us visualize what it might have been like, so that we can then compare it to our sources and talk with people on podcasts and things like that. So I think HBO Rome does it. I think that the battle of Alessia, I don’t think it says Alessia. I think it says Alessia. I think it just says Gaul. So this was in, I believe, 52 BC, and Caesar was up in Gaul right on his 10 year campaign. Again, if you guys ever make it to the third and second and first century, I am so ready to come on back and talk about those books we intend to I will be old. I will be significantly older then, but still excited to talk about Roman things. So the Battle of Alessia, Caesar’s there. He’s conquering Gauls. That’s a siege. It’s an interesting siege of the town of Alessia, because a Gallic army comes up, and so Caesar’s soldiers are in fortifications where they’re both fencing in the city that they’re besieging and fencing out the other army that’s coming to support them. HBO is Rome. Does nothing with that. It’s Gauls. There’s no reason for them all to be standing in this woody area. But they don’t care. They’re just going for it. So what exactly this is supposed to be, I’m not quite sure, but that’s but that’s not to detract, I think, from from the achievement. So you look at it and you really see that they’re trying to make this idea of the organized Romans versus the semi organized or disorganized goals. Interestingly, as far as we can tell, the goals weren’t that disorganized. By the first century BC, the Romans had taken a lot of techniques and a lot of equipment from the Gauls. And so as Roman historians, we always love a good, you know, barbarian joke here or there. But the reality is that it wasn’t quite that distinct. And yet, clearly the Romans put a lot of energy into maintaining a training system and a formation system and an officer system that could hold up the stresses. So they’re standing there the soldiers under Vorenus is centurion. It must be because he’s a centurion, and you can see an optimally equipped legionnaire, almost. They’ve got scale armor. They got ring chain mail, which is absolutely what was being worn at the time by the wealthiest. But by the first century, most were being supplied with that. They have their Scutum, they have their they have their shields, probably a little too early, they have these shields that are rectangular and curved, and that seems to be early empire. But it’s okay. They look good. They’ve got their helmets. They’ve got their Gallic helmet, actually, and they’re looking good. And they. Got their Gladius, and they don’t have pila. They do not have a single

Dr G 35:06
missing an opportunity. Again,

Dr Jeremiah McCall 35:08
I know, and you’re thinking to yourself as an armchair general, right? You’re like a throw of some pila could be really useful here. I would think, I reckon, I wonder if

Dr Rad 35:18
it’s a health and safety thing that you know, just hurling these gigantic javelins is just too risky. But then again, there are so many scenes where they love having the rain of arrows.

Speaker 1 35:28
I was gonna say, why don’t they sub out the rain of arrows, which we know is historically inaccurate, and put in some throwing javelins. Come on. Yeah, I

Speaker 2 35:38
know. I know. So, okay, so Okay, so they don’t have that great vision here, you know, we’ll forgive them those things again. I do wonder about equipment costs and how much they were trying to borrow and whatever. So they’re waiting there, and there’s tension, and soldiers are all gritty and dirty looking, as you would expect them to, and this is some pretty serious business. And so they clash, and it looks really good. They’re smashing shields into shields. They’re trying to knock each other down. The Romans are using their stabbing motion. The Gladius was supposed to be good for both a cut and a stab. They seem to be doing a good job with that. And the Gauls are a bit more disorganized, and they’re not having an easy time of it. So the first part is where Vorenus is mad at pulley Pullo because he’s broken ranks. So that happens first. So, so pull over at the headstrong one breaks ranks and he’s off fighting his own personal battle. And and again, this fits what we know personal battles were not being fought by Romans in the middle of battles before the battle, quite possibly, maybe with the cavalry off on the side of a battle, but they weren’t doing it in the middle of the battle, because that’s when you have to keep your formations and everything. So there’s this wonderful scene where Vorenus is, and I just love it. He’s like, formation pull though, and you just, you’re like, you can, you can feel it. You go, okay, yeah, I would assume a century and had to grunt like that. I mean, because it’s battle, it’s serious business. Pullo goes ahead, doesn’t listen to anybody. Kill some balls. And Vorenus says on me. And he gets a group of loyal soldiers to come with him, and they go out into this little group. And suddenly, as you were saying, Dr Rad, you have all this space for the camera. Suddenly, there’s space for varenus to punch Pullo, have people grab him, force him back into line as he’s turning and talking and calling him a drunken fool, and then have him walk back to the front lines without any of the calls hitting them. Okay, so that’s drama. The idea of emphasizing military discipline definitely over aggrandized. And I almost, I almost feel like we have to make a moral note here, by the way, a side note, which you are welcome to cut if you’d like. But let’s remember that there are horrific white supremacists in the world that over state Roman order and fascism and all these things, and they do it for evil purposes. So I don’t want to, I don’t want to overstate the Roman order thing, but clearly our sources say that that was part of it, that they were trained and disciplined. So the Varanus and polo episode, that makes sense. So I’m stoked I’m watching it. This is great. It’s only been two minutes, and then I see it, and I said, What the hell was that? Do you know what I’m talking about? Okay, so what the hell was that? Okay? So he blows his whistle. Cool a whistle for command. Sure. Why not? I don’t know that we have evidence for that, but they had to do this. Somehow. He blows his whistle, varenus, and then the front line, the front line, dudes in the Roman army all turn sideways and sidle their way down between the tight rows of infantry on their side. And when you look from the top, they’re sidling down and going to the back. The next person in line goes to the front. What they don’t show you it well, they show you in the in the clip on the overhead shot is each of those soldiers has their left hand with their Scutum, with their shield and their right hand, sorry, and their left hand is also holding their Gladius, because their right hand is on the straps of the soldier in front of them. What is that so? So basically, we’re asked to imagine, and I’m going to be nice to this after so we have to assume is the front guys would all be able to sidle their way back. The person behind them would be able to let go of the guy, shuffle forward, take his Gladius from his from his hand, from his shield hand, hold up his shield and and refresh while people were trying to kill them.

Speaker 1 39:40
I do think this might be a logistic way of trying to solve like, how do we do it? Like they’re standing there with all of the equipment and they’ve got whoever is their master of battles behind the scenes being like, how are we going to do this change of formation? Like, how do we make that work physically? It’s like you’ve got this giant shield, you got this sword, if you’re holding both at the same time. Maybe you’ll accidentally injure the person who you’re relieving. So we’ve got to get them out of the way. But this obviously sets up that next line to be completely vulnerable. So presumably, it’s not how it was done.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 40:12
I think you’re right, though. I mean, I think you know, props are due. This is the most serious, scholarly version of this you’ve seen in film, right? I mean, Spartacus isn’t doing anything close. They tried with their cohorts. So there are a couple of historians, I can’t remember. It’s been a while. I don’t think anybody supported the Rome version recently, but there have been a couple of scholars that suggested this is what happened, that in the midst of the fight, individual roles of soldiers would relieve each other. But, yeah, it kind of staggers the imagination that that could work. But that’s one of those gaps in our evidence. We don’t know how they relieved each other. We have no idea how that worked. It seems impossible. The best argument that I’ve heard well, I mean, we don’t even know. We don’t even know if the if the cohorts fought in those regular lines, as much, or whether they were just all sort of clumped, it’s the best answer I’ve heard is that there are actually probably a lot of gaps in fighting and a lot of pauses. Particularly if you stayed in your kind of orderly groups, you’d clash together, and people would die, and energy would be exerted, and then they’d back off. There’d be a natural pause every so often, and maybe that’s it. But I think you’re right. I think this is a serious I shouldn’t have said scholarly, because scholarly is not the standard by which history is history. It is instead interpretation of the past selectively in a way that you find meaningful. So maybe, maybe scholarly is not the word, but it is a serious attempt, I think you’re right to figure out what the heck might have this

Dr Rad 41:44
is the tricky thing about being an academic who studies history on film, because so often you’re like, that is completely inaccurate. And then people say, Okay, well, how should it have been? I have no idea, but I know that that’s not how it was, exactly,

Dr Jeremiah McCall 41:57
and that’s that. And that goes back to like, I’m not going to try and pronounce the French on it, because my French pronunciation has been made fun of in like six US states. And the setting of a film, right? All right, I’m going to try. It’s mise en scene. Oh, yeah, the mise en scene, yeah, yeah. There you go. See, I knew I could goad you into pronouncing it, because I can’t, in any event, right? The setting of the setting of the scene, everything that’s in the shot. And yeah, they’ve got everybody in the shot, so they got to figure out some way to relieve and so, yeah, that’s what they do. So, yeah, you know, I mean, fair enough at the end, this is probably the best that you’re going to see. And then they get to Philippi, and they kind of go for it even more. Still, don’t have pila. It’s a civil war. Romans are afraid of spears too. Why aren’t they doing a nice I

Dr Rad 42:43
mean, surely if you’re gonna have peeler, it’d be in a civil war when they’re wrong, you think right, because everybody’s got them,

Speaker 1 42:49
that’s when you have to surprise them by showing up without them. I mean, yeah,

Speaker 2 42:53
it’s like, it’s like a pila fight in a phone booth or a knife, but you brought a dope Philippi. The sources are pretty clear. There were two battles, not one, but, but this telescope says, cinema does the setting they’re making dry and dusty, although I don’t actually, I mean, it was, I think it was spring or summer time, and Greece can be dry and dusty in that time. I think the seriousness of the soldiers, their shields are kind of at rest, leaning against their knee, which makes a lot of sense. And, you know, kind of the seriousness on their face, and that’s something that HBO really kind of goes with, is trying to get sort of the gravity of this. And I love the fact that when they do this, I assume they must be using CGI stuff to add on to it, but they have many, many units on the field, and they’re taking these aerial shots, and you absolutely have the sense that they’re in different units coming together, and they come together and they clash again. They didn’t throw a pila at each other, but they clash with each other, and they’re stabbing and they’re thrusting, and it devolves into chaos in the front, but it doesn’t devolve into quite as much chaos. So you got a sense, maybe, that there are still formations back there, but it’s, it’s a brutal slug fest. Is a brutal stab Fest in the front rows. And I think they do a really good job with all of that. And then no whistles are blown, but they relieve the front lines and do that thing again. You’re like, okay, they’re committed to this. This is how it’s, it’s the way. And I should say it looks really cool. It looks really cool when they do it. The shot of the relief. Couldn’t ask for anything more interesting, too, except for when Brutus commits suicide. There’s no aristeia, there’s no there’s no individual leaders going through and making a show. I don’t think that our protagonists are even in there. I don’t think verenus And polo are even at that battle. I can’t remember, but Anthony’s not going in doing that. Of course, Octavian is not doing that. Was sick. He was not feeling well,

Speaker 1 44:50
yeah, excuse me, I’m not I’m not sure what anybody’s trying to say here about

Dr Jeremiah McCall 44:56
he had to rest in his tent. Apparently, we thought. Ahead. Now, of course, I’m a middle I’m a middle aged history teacher in high school, so I would not be doing any better. I mean, so I should not be throwing stones. But in any event, the No Irish days makes sense. You got the generals kind of behind commanding and sending in reserves and things like that. So I think they do a really good job on that. I don’t think they do starting speeches. I think, you know? I mean, if we’re going to nitpick, right, Antonius was certainly charismatic to his soldiers, and we don’t ever have him being, like, giving a speech or something like that. And I believe Brutus and Cassius, I think all this show, because I just went back to the video clips, I think all they’re doing is arguing or is talking about what he wants on his birthday. And isn’t it his birthday? And shall he have a cake? Which do Romans have cake? I don’t. Well, the bigger

Dr Rad 45:44
questions. Feel like, no, like, I take cake very seriously, and I feel like they don’t have cake. Like, I understand

Dr Jeremiah McCall 45:50
it, yeah, okay. I mean, right, they’ve got fish guts, but they don’t have cake,

Dr Rad 45:53
yeah? Maybe like a sweet bread of some kind or something, yeah,

Dr Jeremiah McCall 45:58
sure, there you go. But okay, we’re agreed it’s not really cake, okay. But anyways, they don’t seem to do a very good job speaking to the soldiers, either. And we actually kind of think that happened. We think that it’s impossible for the commanders to have actually reached all the people in their armies when they were giving speeches. But the speech for your local group was probably something you tried to do, because at the end of the day, battles were not lost primarily through wounds. They weren’t lost when more people got killed. They were lost when one side lost its morale to the point that it decided self defense, self preservation was a better shot for them than staying in this orderly formation. And that’s when the real devastating killing goes on. So speeches and stuff are kind of an important reminder

Dr Rad 46:41
of that. So let’s switch, perhaps, from the late Republic to the Empire, because we don’t want to miss that. Of course, Gladiator 2000 we can’t not mention that, especially because the opening scene of that movie has a particularly memorable battle scene between the Romans and Germanic tribes. How accurate do you think this scene was?

Dr Jeremiah McCall 47:05
It’s funny. I don’t Are you familiar at all with Brett Devereaux blogs and things?

Dr G 47:09
He rips this one to shreds.

Speaker 2 47:12
Yeah, yeah. And I think he does gladiator too. And I went back to read because I was like, Oh my gosh. I mean, I know him digitally, like we all know each other, right? And I said, Oh my gosh, I better go and read that. Because if he says gladiator one was horrific after I was being kind of positive on it, I want to at least be ready for that. But apparently it’s just gladiator two. And you all had a good time a few weeks ago ripping a hole into that one too. We did. So they finally have the right arm, the segmented Lorica, the Lorica segmentata, which makes them kind of look like lobsters, right with the overlapping plates. They have put those in movies in the Republic, all over the place, and they never existed in the Republic. And that is the armor. If you want to show Romans, you show them in the segmented armor. By gladiators day, by the second century, they actually were using this armor. So finally, we’ve got the right armor, and it looks really great on them. And they’ve got head scarves, which I would imagine you’d want if you were throwing a helmet on that’s kind of banging around stuff like that. I mean, it would have a lining, but, and they’ve got pila that they don’t use, and they’ve got Gladius, and their and their shields are curved. And they, I didn’t look but I bet their military sandals are I bet they look great too. You totally, I think, get the authentic visualization of what this is like. Nitpicky details, sure, but I’m not an imperial historian, so I don’t know what they are. I think this is a great visual. Then they move into battle, right? Okay, and so first thing, of course, is we have to have the fireworks. The Roman catapults launch flaming balls of something at the Germans who are yelling in the trees. It’s a trope, right? You’ve got the disorganized but courageous Germanic people and the disciplined Roman people, and they’re standing firm, because after the fires come, they still go, ah, and everybody knows that they’re really tough. And you just kind of wonder, did they do that? I really didn’t think they did. I thought the, I thought the chances of using catapults to hit people on foot was almost nil, but apparently there is a little of that. We’ve got a few places in the sources where artillery was used. But I’m still kind of skeptical. I think they wanted fire. They wanted the they wanted the wolf dog. They wanted Maximus, Wolf, dog, to leap through the flames. Oh yeah, which, sadly, doesn’t look as good as I remember it looking

Dr Rad 49:27
I just, I’m glad that, because I feel like that means that that animal was not hurt. They were more concerned about hurting the animal than doing this, that which 50 years ago would not have mattered.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 49:39
Oh, God, they formed their Testudo. We have no evidence of anybody ever forming a Testudo, right? That’s the ones with the shields on top and the shields in front, like the tortoise. We have no accounts of that ever being done, except for in a siege, when they were trying to lift people up over towers and things like that. Thing. We might have one example, but they use it against the German arrows. Now this is clever based. Likely the Germans fire their arrows. The legionaries clam up like a Testudo to block the arrows, and the Germans take that moment when they’re kind of hunkering to run in and charge two into them. Now this is clever because it means there’s no space to throw their pila Aha, and looking at us like, oh my gosh, that’s how they did that. That’s totally right. That is the most legit falsehood ever. It’s like they ran too fast. You couldn’t use it. They keep formations, but then they devolve into a brawl, because they always got to devolve into a brawl. And my original nerd specialty is the Roman cavalry. That is not what I went to school for. It just sort of worked that way. As you know, dissertation is kind dissertations kind of work that way. And the classic misunderstanding of of ancient and medieval cavalry is that they rode their horses into people, and that the impact of riding their horses into people was what took out the infantry. And about 24 about 50 years ago, John Keegan wrote a book called Face of battle that’s been kind of inspirational to many, at least my generation of military historians, where he pointed out, and I guess he knew horses. I don’t know horses that you really can’t make horses run into obstacles that they can’t jump over or get or get around. They’re gonna they’re gonna stop. And furthermore, if you did ride the horses in then you’re talking about these very expensive animals that cost training and food and everything like that, and you’re running them into a bunch of infantry, wrecking the horse, wrecking you on top the horse. And let’s not forget, these were usually nobles riding the cavalry, riding the horses, so it’s not going to happen. And that’s what I like about the gladiator cavalry charge, because it suggests that they just got in there and mixed it up. And as far as we can tell, that’s what cavalry did. They took an already occupied infantry enemy, and they added fear and disruption by coming in from some other side and roughing things up. And I really like that. And I like, I like his little speech at the beginning, right? You’re dead. And in Elysium, I like that the lines are sort of deforming of the horses. He says, Stay in line. And of course, some horses are faster than other horses, so they don’t completely stay in line. I think it’s a good cavalry charge. And then it gets back to a melee. It gets back to a brawl, like they always do. But I think with those caveats, just as I think Rome, the Rome series is the one to watch if you want to come as close as you can to visualize and what these might look like. I think you can do the same with that gladiator intro if you’re looking for the Imperial Army. By the way, you can move this earlier if you want. But Spartacus, in the midst of the Army, after having downed a soldier, grabs a six foot handled mace club and starts swinging it around. I don’t

Speaker 1 52:45
know if you remember a pivotal moment. All of the

Dr Jeremiah McCall 52:48
enslaved people had Roman equipment, and the Roman people had Roman equipment. Where did he get this six foot tall mace that he was able to like swing around?

Dr Rad 52:56
Well, we do know that the slaves did manufacture their own armor and weapons, so perhaps that he had a creative person on his team

Dr Jeremiah McCall 53:05
and that, and that’s the beauty we can we can go conspiracy theory logic, prove that they didn’t make a club like Exactly, exactly. Audience, please, don’t do that. We don’t say, prove that it’s not true. We say, here is the evidence that it might be true. Sorry. Okay. Teacher in me couldn’t

Speaker 1 53:21
help it. As we’re heading towards the battles of this imperial period. We’ve also got things like Centurion from 2010 and the eagle from 2011 so a good decade post Gladiator. And also films that the people who worked on would have been able to see HBOs Rome and be like, huh, maybe both these films center around the supposed disappearance of the ninth Legion in Britannia. They’re probably not as well known as gladiator but we’re interested in how their depictions of battle might compare to the blockbusters.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 53:59
You really kind of have to squeeze it to get it from a stone, because they’re not the both of those movies. I mean, maybe they maybe because they were going for something different, I’m not sure. But both of those movies really focus on a protagonist that is doing their own kind of special ops, right? Centurion Michael Fassbender is behind enemy lines, and he has to kind of work his way back. And the eagle, Channing Tatum is also, you know what? I have to confess, I never finished the eagle. I got about halfway through, and I was like, this is just not gripping me. Oh, and so I got scared when I was getting ready for this podcast. I was because I saw a video that said final battle in the eagle. I was like, there was a final battle. I didn’t write that in my book, but no, it’s just like 20 guys in a river stabbing each other. It’s not a final battle. We’re okay. You can still buy the book, but again, if you buy me a coffee, that will be at least as much money in my my compensation. So chronological order, no, I’m gonna do the eagle first. What? What I like about the eagle so things, this is a great example, again, of you’ve got to put something in. You can’t leave blank spots in a scene. You’ve got to have everything filled in. And so there’s this kind of great scene. Tatum has come to relieve whoever was the off the commander of this fort. Think his dad was dishonored by losing the Legion’s Eagle standards. I can’t remember, but he gets on this discipline kick with his soldiers in the fort and has them prepare defenses and get ready to be a serious obstacle to the Britons in the area probably did look like that. I didn’t check to see if whether their hammers and stuff were authentic looking. I bet they were. I bet they probably went into that detail. But they’re putting like pine pitch on to seal things up, and they’re cutting stakes and doing all this stuff. And so this is really good. And I like that. And then you notice, of course, that when they put their armor back on, when they’re done doing these things, they have leather. Oh,

Dr G 55:52
it’s a return of the leather. We’ve come full circle,

Dr Jeremiah McCall 55:56
I know, right? And it’s leather segmented armor. It’s the correct lorica look, the lorica segmentata, but it’s leather,

Dr Rad 56:03
just like that leather.

Dr G 56:04
It’s a budget thing. I’m sure

Dr Jeremiah McCall 56:06
it’s a budget thing. I’m sure you’re right. I mean, I guess it’s good that at least they weren’t like the muscled body armor that just Tatum

Dr Rad 56:14
has, that the Superman look, the Batman look. This is what I like about

Dr Jeremiah McCall 56:17
it. What they end up doing is there’s some scouts he sent out, and the scouts had been caught by the Britons, including this chief warrior dude who’s got a really crazy look in his eye, and he’s got a bare chest and some flowing robe and lots of lots of really cool beard hair swirling around, and is speaking in Gaelic. I don’t know what he’s speaking in. He’s speaking in something that would be appropriate for a Britain in the north,

Dr Rad 56:40
a Pictish, I don’t know, not Latin. That’s the most important part, right?

Dr Jeremiah McCall 56:44
Not Latin. So those scouts that he sends out are brought back in by the British war, by the British Army, or the Britain army, and they’re captives, and they’re kind of made to kneel down, and they’re a few 100 yards away from the fort. And there’s this big show of the Britain leader speaking, and we have subtitles to hear that he’s talking about all the awful things the Romans have done, which, let’s face it, is true, the Romans did horrific things to the people that they fought. It’s right. It’s the they make a desert and call it peace. Quote. So he’s doing this, and he kills one of the soldiers, and the soldiers are all terrified, and we’re really feeling the plight of the soldiers, because that’s kind of the position we’ve been given, right? We’re pro Roman in this or we’re supposed to be. And Tatum says, I put them out there. I’ve got to save them. 50 men on me, and the 50 soldiers all line up in their leather armor. That’s not going to help them at all. What I really like about that is the energy they put into how freaking scary it must have been to be a small group that was going to run out and try and do some kind of rescue operation like that. And we can’t say things like that never happened. We don’t know and do the rules necessarily apply when you’re talking about these things. That actually also brings me back to there’s a night fight before this where the Britons attacked the fortress, and Tatum grabs two swords and starts killing people with his dual wielding skills, which I mean, I learned my Dungeons and Dragons 45 years ago. I’m impressed, I, you know, but I but I doubt he learned those things. I don’t think anybody was learning how to use two swords. The reason I bring it up, though, is who knows what was happening in night fighting, when people were doing the horrific work of killing each other? I mean, who knows what was going on? Back to the back to the scene, though, the soldiers are scared. One of them vomits. One of them’s murmuring a prayer. They all look very serious. They look very intimidated. And I thought that was a really nice touch. They don’t always show the fear that must have been involved with us, and I thought that was really good. And then they come out, and they form their Testudo, even though that’s not probably how they used it, and then the Britons start jumping on top of the Testudo. So it’s like this armored tortoise. And I think that’s possible, because we have this example where the Romans using a siege to sort of lift people up six feet, five feet. So they probably could do that, but the Britons are all jumping on and again, you’re emphasizing right, disciplined, orderly Romans, disorganized Britons, which is probably a fairer take. The Britons were fighting in more loose war band formations than the Gauls, for example. And you see that idea of the line holding of the Romans with their shields in their position, holding the line. And that’s that morale idea. As long as you stay in your position, you are better defended than if you run on your own. Paradoxically, if you get so afraid for your life that you run, you immediately become more likely to be killed. And so they get around, they get around the captives, and they form a circle. And I thought that was a pretty interesting way to look at that, too. And I mean, of course, there’s no testimony for circles around captives this, this is not the sort of stuff that made it into the accounts. I liked, again, that they were trying. Trying to keep this idea of cohesion, this idea of maintaining your perimeter, so that you support each other together. That’s kind of the eagle. I think, I think it’s some nice visualizations of some ideas and not really a visualization. Oh, oh my gosh. I forgot the chariot. My understanding again, middle aged high school teacher thankfully never been in an ancient battle, never been any battle. My understanding is that the worst possible thing you can do when you are a line of soldiers with swords and you see a chariot or anything else on horses, is go run. And he commands them to run. Forget what his name is, but Channing Tatum says, run. And they all start running. And as soon as they’re running, they’re not protecting each other in the chariot with its scythe.

Dr Rad 1:00:43
Oh, they’re scythes wheels. They like that touch in Hollywood.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:00:47
Yeah, I sometimes I wonder about the physics of it, like if you put your shield down and put a foot against it, but a horse drawn chariot, that’s got to be a lot of power, right? I don’t know. I just don’t know how that all sorts out scythe wheels and blocking and stuff like that.

Dr Rad 1:01:01
I think they got it from Grease, quite frankly,

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:01:05
probably so. And then centurion is just an ambush scene. They’ve got that marching in order. Yep, absolutely. They would have narrower lines when they’re marching in order. I really liked that. So they march into this area that looks like a perfect trap. And there’s a Hills up on each side, and the general who’s at the front, which I don’t know they might be, sometimes they might be, the general at the front is like, Wow, this looks really bad. Tell the Centurion in the rear that we need to start backing up, which made me go, huh? You would have thought you could send some scouts ahead to do that, and the Romans used scouts, but we know, right, Varus in the tutenburg Forest lost legions to ambush, and so this does happen. The Britons come out from the tops of the hills, and they have fiery, rolling, flaming fireballs.

Dr Rad 1:01:54
Of course, the fiery rolls

Speaker 2 1:01:58
this time, I think, Peta, you were the one saying that you’d run away if the flaming logs were coming died. You You wait, you’d wait and then let them burn out. This time, they don’t really have a chance. They’re stuck there. They got to put up with the flaming fireballs. It’s, it’s and they’re horrible. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Here’s what I liked. The equipment was fine. I think they actually did have their metal armor that time. They didn’t have a chance to throw pila because they were disorganized. This should have been a text box in the book if I had realized right 10 different cinematic ways to avoid throwing

Dr Rad 1:02:26
spears. Exactly.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:02:29
It’s It’s amazing. What I did like, what I thought seemed authentic, was as they were waiting for the attack, and they were, they formed their kind of perimeter line and and the unit commanders, the local officers were prepping them. You know, you’re ready. You’re trained watch for and I thought that was an interesting take on that idea of morale. Again, we, our best guess is that to maintain this morale, one of the reasons that the Romans and the Greeks tended to be very effective in their infantry battles. Is they ended up Phyllis column wrote about this in 1989 I think basically the socio economic order of those societies is replicated in the military formations. So you have the aristocrats leading and then you have the reasonably well off plebs in officer positions, and then you have the farmer soldiers, and so that’s important, and the speeches are important. And absolutely the sub Commander, the centurion who had been with you and guided you and trained you, is going to be really important in a time like that. So I thought that was a cool take on morale, but not really given us much to sort of visualize. I think gladiator is still going to give us the best one for visualizing battle in the empire, and then add in that eagle sort of shield wall thing that was pretty cool.

Dr Rad 1:03:48
I actually kind of wonder if the difference in these movies is also the budget. You know, you can’t necessarily have huge battle scenes in every single movie because it’s so expensive. It’s kind of a metaphor for room itself. Sure, they like to picture these gigantic battle scenes when they’re talking about even things in the early republic. It makes it sound so grand, but if you actually were teleported there, you’d be like, Oh, it’s like 100 guys versus 100 guys. This isn’t quite the what I was imagining.

Dr G 1:04:18
I think you’re right. So I’m always interested. I don’t, I don’t know enough of it. I mean, so And sorry, Peta, because you’re an English teacher. So you will, you will get me on this. But I still like to think about authors having intention when they’re expressing things.

Dr G 1:04:33
This is a tragedy where to start.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:04:37
So I accept that there are big institutions making these, these movies. And so it’s not really, was it auteur theory or something like that? It’s not really the director doing sort of everything on their own, but it’s just at some point, you still kind of, I just, I wish I knew more about the decisions people made. This goes back to being a teacher. Why is this portrayal being given? By this person. How is that making sense? And how are they making sense in their mind? And so, oh my gosh, I wasn’t using your code name either. Sorry. Dr, G so. Dr, red, I think your idea about, I think your idea about budget limitations and stuff, there’s got to be a lot of truth to that. They’re making a movie. They’re not making a historical monograph. So, yeah, it’s got to play a

Dr Rad 1:05:22
big role. Well, even if you think about academic books, so, and we would all have experienced this, I certainly have Dr G will understand where I’m going with this. Even we have word limits, because they can only print so many pages in a book. They can only afford to have a book of a certain size, and you can’t exceed that, as it turns out, yeah.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:05:43
So I’m writing a book right now for educators to design games for their history classes, but then also to structure and support students designing those games. And so one of the things, because it’s just meant to be for any teacher who thinks cool, I want to do this. It’s not meant to be for somebody who has any game design experience. And so I was talking about abstractions, right? And games are abstractions, which I often get confused. What people mean by that. What I mean by that is a simplification that keeps the essentials. And the part that we often forget is that text is an abstraction, right? If you say such and such a person was born on such and such a day, and you make that statement, somebody might say that statements historically accurate. My understanding from watching like dramatic hospital videos on TV and stuff like that, is that actually giving birth is a lot more complicated than that. If you say such and such a person died on such and such a day, we would say that’s a historically accurate statement. But again, something’s going on, some reality that’s totally not being captured. So, yeah, they’re all, they’re all kind of, you know, like you said, word counts and, you know, efforts to liven up our prose, and all the other things we do, we’re all. We’re all taking a past that does not exist anymore and trying to selectively turn it into something that we think is meaningful.

Speaker 1 1:06:58
And I think this is something that Ridley Scott leans into as well, where he’s like, I’m not trying to make trying to make a historical film. I’m trying to make an exciting movie. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:07:08
so let’s put sharks in the Colosseum. God damn it, I think, yeah. And

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:07:12
fair enough, right? If he made that. So I think Robert Rosenstone, I think, was sort of the leading person on film, theater, excuse me, on history, on film. And I was going back and glancing at one of his articles. I just never, I never went this way into vid individual, into film, because my video game stuff is similar, but I just, I’ve learned more and studied more and found that more compelling. But I wanted to kind of go back and look, and he makes a point in an article that there’s a number of sort of snooty, stuffy historians. They’re like, well, we need to have more historians on set. We need to have more historians dictating how these things will go and and he says, No, that’s not what we need. And I actually made the same point about video games, because there was a movement in the early 2000s that we just need more historians making video games. No, we don’t need more historians making video games or movies. They are their own legitimate art forms. They are made for purposes that are not the same purpose as a monograph, as a popular book, as whatever. And, yeah, Ridley Scott, you know, God damn it. He wanted to make the Colosseum, and he wanted to have, you know, tigers. He had to

Speaker 1 1:08:16
have tigers. He wanted it. Boy, did he get it

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:08:22
see. So it worked out for him. So

Speaker 1 1:08:25
thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with us. This has been really fun and going back and looking at these films through a different lens. I will. I think the subtitle for this episode has to be, where is the peeler?

Dr Rad 1:08:40
Yeah, I was gonna say justice for pila. Pila, pila, pila,

Dr G 1:08:45
but thank you so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it.

Dr Jeremiah McCall 1:08:48
You bet it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much.

Dr Rad 1:09:00
Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective head to collectivemem.com. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. If monthly patronage is not your style, we have merch. We have a book, or you can just buy us a coffee on ko fi. And we’d like to say a big thank you to all our Patreon supporters for making special episodes like this one possible. However, if you’re imperial coffers do not overfloweth, one of the easiest and most important ways to help us is to tell someone about the show or give us a five star review wherever you listen. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Swords and Cinema with Dr Jeremiah McCall appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The sacred geese have attempted to save Rome, but the siege of the Gauls is still not over! What could possibly happen next? We continue our deep dive into the events purported to all take place in 390 BCE.

Despite the Romans apparently being surprised by the Gauls turning up on their doorstep, the Gauls have been in northern Italy for some time as far as we can trace archaeological evidence. Rumour has it that the Gauls came to central Italy in the search for cooler weather, but instead what they find is a city of Romans, and as the siege drags on, hygiene starts to emerge as a problem.

The siege is getting tedious for both sides, so amidst the military encounters, conversations start about maybe bringing the siege to a close through mutual agreement. The details of the siege consequences include lack of food, issues with cadavers, and spread of disease. And it seems neither the Romans or the Gauls want to keep going with this situation.

Those Gauls are pretty cheeky in the moment of coming to a monetary agreement to ensure they’ll pack up their siege and leave Roman territory. Not only do they ask for 1000 pounds of gold, but they have the nerve to add some extra items to the scales to encourage the Romans to pay even more than this sum. Perhaps even worse, are our sources really telling us a story of Rome resisting the Gauls, or could it be the case that ALL the city was taken and the Romans were legitimately and completely defeated? We explore the possibilities.

Is he in Ardea pumping out a training montage with the locals in preparation to swoop in and rescue Rome? Or is waiting in the wings but misses his cue to come on stage leaving Rome to deal with the Gauls all by themselves? Our sources have some disagreements which we’ll delve into.

OR

Our music is by the superb Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:16
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:30
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:01
And I’m Dr G, hello.

Dr Rad 1:04
This is going to be a tough one. I think Dr G, in more ways than one, because for listeners who might be listening at a different point in time, we are currently recording in the midst of an Australian summer as affected by climate change.

Dr G 1:24
It is a heat wave, a tropical heat wave.

Dr Rad 1:27
Exactly. We’re having a heat wave. That’s a Marilyn reference, in case you didn’t pick up on that one,

Dr G 1:35
I knew you would figure that one out.

Dr Rad 1:39
But not only that. Dr, G, of course, we are in a year that seemingly never ends. As far as ancient Rome is concerned,

Dr G 1:47
the hottest year on Roman history’s record 390 BCE

Dr Rad 1:52
Yeah, I knew it was going to be a big one, but it’s it’s even surprised me.

Dr G 1:57
We are many parts into this effective mini series on this year, and the last time we talked about this, there were some interesting moments. There was visitations down the Tiber, aided by cork

Dr Rad 2:13
visitations

Dr G 2:14
visitations. There were sacred geese, and boy did they honk. And there were some people thrown down off the top of what we think is the Capitolini Hill rather than the Tarpeian rock, although we can’t be entirely certain. And some Roman bodies end up amongst the Gaulish forces, it seems.

Dr Rad 2:34
Absolutely yeah. So we’re right in the midst of this Gallic siege of Rome. We’ve got this stalwart band of Romans who have remained behind to defend the Capitol and all the sacred buildings and animals, apparently, that reside upon it. And when the Gauls tried to assault them, it almost worked, not quite, and that’s where we got people being flung off rocks, etc, etc, etc, yes.

Dr G 3:07
So this siege, we think, has been going on for quite some time at this point, our sources suggest that it’s anywhere between six or seven months at this stage, and everybody’s really starting to feel the effects of it would seem. So Plutarch, who I would not consider a close source to the action at hand, nevertheless suggests that the Gauls themselves are running into some trouble engaging and maintaining this siege, partly because they lack provisions, but partly because, in an encamped situation for a long period of time, outbreaks of disease are quite common. It’s hard to keep up sanitary conditions when you’re in a place where you’ve kind of constructed everything from scratch, but it’s all kind of temporary. And they’re also encamped amongst ruins of Roman buildings. Effectively, in some parts of this siege area, there’s also a growing extent of corpses because they’re engaging in various raids. And obviously some people die in those and they haven’t seemed to have dealt with those bodies necessarily in the best way possible.

Dr Rad 3:07
Well that’s just gross.

Dr G 3:07
Some of them, they’ve been able to cremate, but seems some of them, they haven’t, so they’re also amongst the dead at the same time. So this would be pushing disease outbreaks as well. But the worst thing of all, according to Plutarch, is that the Gauls came from a cool place, and as we know, one of the theories that brought the Gauls into Italy is that they were looking for somewhere even cooler. But boy, were they wrong, because Italy is hot, and even in autumn, apparently, when this siege is still continuing, it’s still quite hot, and they are unhappy campers about the weather.

Dr Rad 4:56
I could not feel more simpatico with the Gauls than right now recording this ridiculous Australian heat. God, I hope we do something about climate change so it doesn’t get any worse. Because I was going to make fun of this whole scenario and say, this sounds like anti-Gallic propaganda in a sense, where they’re like, they can’t function when it’s hot, when it gets above 35 degrees celsius, they just completely melt, like the Wicked Witch of the West. But then I’m like, You know what? I don’t think I function particularly well, when I get too hot. Mind you though.

Dr G 5:32
Yes, now, now, it comes down to it. Yes.

Dr Rad 5:36
They have been in Italy for a bit of time at this point. But maybe it’s because this is one of their forays more into, you know, central Italy, whereas when they started crossing the Alps, which I mean at this point, the Gauls are meant to have been crossing the Alps for a couple of hundreds years, like we think it starts around sort of 600 BCE, that we start getting Gallic peoples on the move and coming into Italian territory, but I think they have tended to stay further north, which for anyone who’s been to Italy, it is a bit of a different climate to other parts of the country.

Dr G 6:17
Very much so, much cooler, maybe more delightful if you’re you prefer the wintertime, but now they’re in central Italy and doesn’t agree with them, not not in their constitution. It would seem, physically, they’re having a tough time.

Dr Rad 6:32
Yeah, no. Look, this is what Plutarch has said. Is very much what Livy says. He says, look, the siege is obviously terrible because the goals aren’t making the headway that they need. They weren’t necessarily planning on this whole situation. It was somewhat foisted upon them. If we had to leave our accounts by the Romans, terrible behaviour.

Dr G 6:52
That’s right, you can’t deny an insult like that and just walk away,

Dr Rad 6:56
Even if we say like, whether we say it was the insult which, let’s face it, most people don’t think that that was probably what happened, or whether we say the Gauls were actually on their way somewhere else, maybe to do something particular, like serve as auxiliaries, or something like that. Either way, they haven’t planned for a lengthy siege, so they don’t, as you say, have all the provisions that they need. The Romans are certainly feeling it because they’re really lacking in provisions, because they can’t really leave the capital to get anything, and they just up there, God knows what kind of exercise they’re getting. Dr G, and this is exactly when, yes, a pestilence hits. Livy also mentions where the Gauls had set up their camp, that because it was low ground between hills, and there was also, like, polluted air, I guess in his in his mind, you know, because they’ve torched so many beautiful Roman buildings that barbarians, it’s just not good. And he also mentions the the corpses, and the fact that they kind of had tried to dispose of some bodies they’ve made, like, mass burial pyres. But when it comes to people who’ve maybe died just, you know, randomly and like a little siege, they’re kind of like, it’s just one body. I don’t know if I can be bothered sitting on fire.

Dr G 8:15
Bad choice. Bad choice. At least bury it.

Dr Rad 8:17
Yeah. And so this is what drives the Gauls to seek out the Romans and to try and enter, introduce get some talks going, see what they can sort out here.

Dr G 8:33
Yes, this is an interesting moment, because it seems like the siege actually becomes a bit of a fizzer, and it’s like the Gallic sack of Rome, and here we are, and everybody’s tired, and we’re months into it, and the Gauls are like, we kind of want this to be over. And the Romans like, we’d like this to be over too. And the Gauls are like, how about you give us 1000 pounds of gold.

Dr Rad 8:53
Oh, well, it gets a little bit heated before we get to that point in my account. Dr, G, there’s a little detail in mind that I particularly like, which is that the commanders on both sides are obviously talking trying to figure things out, and I guess to drive home that they were in the stronger position in this siege situation, the Gauls start making fun of the Romans and mocking them for the fact that they’re literally starving to death in front of their eyes, which, after, say, six or seven months, I can understand. And they’re like, surely the Romans should just give in. I mean, you’re clearly going to die from starvation if we don’t kill you first. Now this is not the way that you negotiate with the Romans, as we know. Dr G, it’s not going to get them on side. It riled them up so much that they started, apparently, throwing bread down from the Capitol towards the Gallic camp being like that’ll show them. We rain down bread upon you. We’re not starving to death. We’re strong, stronger than we’ve ever been. Whoa. I think I’m feeling a little woozy from the lack of food. Phew.

Dr G 8:54
First of all, the Gauls are like, is this the hill that you’re willing to die on? And the Romans are like, yes, it is.

Dr Rad 8:54
Yes, the Capitol is the best.

Dr G 8:54
This is the the exact hill that I’m willing to die on. And not only that, it doesn’t seem in any way strategic to be like, how about you guys have some of the bread. We’re having a tough time, but you’re gonna have it tougher because you can’t handle this level of gluten.

Dr Rad 8:54
That’s right, yeah, exactly. We know how you guys are. You can’t handle the food here. You can’t handle the climate here. Get outta here.

Dr G 8:54
Yeah, good luck with this bread. The Gauls are like, I will eat it.

Dr Rad 8:54
My commentator believes that this little tidbit that Livy includes might have been something that’s trying to explain a development of the cult of Jupiter Pistor, which is the story that turns up in some other sources like Valerius Maximus, Ovid, etc, etc.

Dr G 8:54
Lovely.

Dr Rad 9:41
Well, I mean, this is the thing about the way that our stories are coming together at this point in time, as we’ve talked about, Livy’s drawing on multiple things. He’s using earlier analysts. He’s also using, probably family histories that have been passed down. They might be oral stories. They might be oral stories that became something that was written down or preserved in some other way. He’s using archeological sources like inscriptions, etc, etc. But one of the things that might be influencing him is this antiquarian tradition as well, where the Romans are obviously trying to explain all sorts of details about their culture, and that’s particularly flowering at the time that Livy’s writing probably because Rome has undergone such a troubled century in the sort of late Republic and early Empire, the Romans seem to have been inspired to figure out their origins, to find out, why do we call it that place name, and, where did that cult come from? And how do we explain this building or this monument? And sometimes they might have come up with things at some point to try and explain why something is the way it is. And obviously it’s really hard for us to trace exactly how strong their evidence is for these stories. They’re coming up with another example of that is the story that we talked about last time about the crucifixion of the dogs, which happened every year, obviously, with the whole thing with the geese and the dogs and the assaults on the Capitol, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you need to go back and listen again. It’s one of those things where it’s obviously a tradition that has survived. But is this really what happened? Is this really why the Romans had this cultural practice, or is this something that’s been woven into the account of the Gallic sack to try and explain a custom that people have kind of lost track perhaps, of exactly why they do what they do?

Dr G 12:56
Yeah, fair enough. There is a sense in which the Romans are definitely trying to figure out what their identity is like, and this is a landmark event in their imagination, at the very least, because we don’t have a lot of archeological evidence to back up.

Dr Rad 13:12
We certainly don’t

Dr G 13:13
This Gallic sack and so even this idea of a Gallic invasion that moves so far down into Central Italy is difficult to navigate from an evidential perspective as ancient historians, and the significance of this tale for the Romans is huge.

Dr Rad 13:32
Absolutely.

Dr G 13:33
There’s so much detail. This is why we’re in part five of this narrative, because they do focus in on every moment, and this idea that eventually, what it sort of boils down to is this embarrassing exchange where Rome gives up, essentially.

Dr Rad 13:59
Yeah.

Dr G 14:00
They do, they do pay the money to the Gauls. And even though both sides are looking a little worse for wear and neither are having a good time, there does seem to be a recognition from those who remain on the Capitol that they cannot stick this out, that if this does go on, ultimately they will be the losers from it. They’re not sure whether any of their neighbours are going to turn up with forces. What has happened with the messages from they has not necessarily resulted in something positive or tangible that they’ve been able to see. And there is still the looming figure of Camillus, who is in exile, and nobody really knows where he is, and nobody knows if he’s ever turning up. And even if he did, would he have any forces with him?

Dr Rad 14:42
Well, of course, at this point, they have sought him out. They’ve tried to go through the proper processes in my account, because for Livy, at this point in time, it’s the Camilla show. We know that, as you say, this story is such a big part of the way that the Romans imagine their history by the time people like. Livy were writing the traditions around it had been fairly well established. The narrative had been fairly well established. However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t obviously these differences in exactly how the story unfolds. And certainly Livy works Camillus in in a very particular way, and he constructs the whole of his first 10 books kind of around Camillus, particularly now that we’re into this, this later period here we’re talking about, you know, books sort of five to 10, and 10 is where we unfortunately lose the detailed Livy for a little while. But yes, Camillus is a big part of that. And exactly as you say in my account, the Romans pelt the Gauls with bread, feel good about themselves and like that’ll show them. But then they turn to each other and they say, but I’m actually really, very hungry. Really, really hungry. I don’t know how much longer I can last. And you know what? I think we just used up the last of the bread to make an emphatic point, yeah.

Dr G 15:59
Do we have any grain stores on hand? No, we don’t.

Dr Rad 16:03
No, I think maybe, maybe I might have let my temper get the best of me.

Dr G 16:12
Rome – never!

Dr Rad 16:15
And meanwhile in Livy’s account, this is where we flash to what’s going on in Ardea, because that is where Camillus is in exile. Camilius-

Dr G 16:24
and now for a new chapter,

Dr Rad 16:25
Yeah. Now that Camillus has managed to have his proper appointment where he’s been properly selected as dictator, he’s getting into action. So he’s conducting a levy. He’s also selected a master of the horse, naturally, a guy called Lucius Valerius, and he’s asking him to bring his army from Veii meet Camillus in Ardea, I presume. Camillus is then starting to train the troops – Drill, baby drill! This is the time he wants to make sure that they’re going to be able to kick some Gallic ass. Yeah, gun show. Mwa Mwa.

Dr G 17:04
It’s time for a training montage.

Dr Rad 17:05
It is, yeah, it very much is. It’s a point where, if we could afford it, we would play Eye of the Tiger. He’s got them punching meat in butchers shops, in the animal warehouses. He’s got them in gray, sweatpants. They’re running up and downstairs.

Dr G 17:22
It’s all happening. Yeah, look, I don’t want to ruin Livy’s show just yet, but I’m just going to put a flag here to say that the stories that Dr Rad is about to tell you from Livy are highly contentious.

Dr Rad 17:36
Whoa, I can’t believe you’re throwing me under a bus in front of the listeners. Dr, G, they’re watching. They’e listening.

Dr G 17:45
Just putting it out there. Listen carefully. Listen well. Warning. Warning.

Dr Rad 17:50
Sorry. It’s very confusing, because we’re kind of video recording this as well as audio recording this. So I’m like, I don’t know who to address. Do I address YouTube? Do I address people who have just got me in their areas? I don’t know. Okay, so back in Rome, we’re switching back. Okay, we’ve gone from the butcher storehouse to Rome. So the army on the Capitol really is at their absolute lowest at this point in time. They are well worn down, not so much from fighting the Gauls, just just doing their regular duties that they have to do, which I presume means, you know, standing guard being centuries and presumably helping each other out to keep life turning as well as it can up there on the Capitol, because we know that some of them have family out there. It’s not just fighting men there and then obviously the level of starvation, that old chestnut, of which I’m sure it’s much worse by the bread display earlier, they are desperately wanting to hold out until Camillus shows up, because that’s the plan, as far as they’re concerned. You know, Camillus has been made dictator. They’re watching. They’re waiting. And nothing happens. There’s just nothing on the horizon. They don’t know what Camillus is up to. They unfortunately can’t hear ‘Eye of the Tiger’ from the Capitol, Ardea is just a little bit too far away, and so they’re almost getting to the point where they’re too weak to even wear armour when they’re on the lookout. They are at that level of starvation, which actually does sound pretty somber and terrible.

Dr G 17:50
That’s bad.

Dr Rad 17:50
Yeah. No surprises. So the Romans are starting to discuss, what are we going to do in terms of surrender? How do we handle this whole situation? Do we literally just surrender? You know, get us the whitest piece of fabric that we have left after being up here on the Capitol for seven months and wave it. Or do we do something like, say, ransom ourselves to the Gauls. The Gauls had said that they weren’t necessarily like looking for a lot in order to bring this whole situation to the end. Because, as we talked about, it’s not like the Gauls are having a fabulous time either. This isn’t like ‘Roman Holiday’ here. So the Senate have a meeting, naturally, process, process, yes, and they say to the military tribunes with consular power that are up there, look, just, just organise some terms. Have a meeting and somehow organising this, this can’t go on much longer, so a meeting is set up. A guy called Quinctius Sulpicius, one of our military tribunes, meets with the so called leader of the Gauls Brennus. Suspicious name, but sure, here we are, and this is where, in my account, the Romans agree to pay 1000 pounds of gold. Livy, at this moment is like, I’m wigging out, guys, this is crazy. Rome is about to become the greatest empire ever, and here they are on their knees agreeing to pay these barbarians. I mean, how hilarious and ironic, right? Guys, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Yeah.

Dr Rad 19:22
It is an interesting moment for the Romans where they’re like, okay, not only is that an outlandish sum to ask of us, but yes, we’re going to pay it. And we have Quinctius Sulpicius, as you mentioned, is the military tribune who’s sort of leading the conference with Brennus. And they agree that they’ll deliver that gold, and then the Gauls will depart, not just away from Rome, the city, but out of Roman territory. They’re just, they’re just gonna leave everything.

Dr Rad 20:08
Which sounds extensive, but isn’t really that.

Dr Rad 20:08
It means they have to get past right at the very least, I’ve got to go, at least, keep going, get out in here, it’s going to be at least a day’s walk. And this is where we start to get the stories about the interference with the scales.

Dr Rad 20:31
Yes.

Dr G 20:31
So the Gauls are like, you know what’s going to be fun if we just keep piling things on our side of the scales? And the Romans are like, what are you what are you doing? We’re weighing out a precise measure. You can’t just keep adding things to the scales.

Dr Rad 20:31
It’s 1000 pounds, not like, whatever pounds.

Dr Rad 20:31
Yeah, and the Gauls are like, we might be hungry and willing to leave, but we still got a sense of humour. And if you want us to leave, we’re just going to add this little extra piece to our side of the scale and be like, oh, well, that’s that’s not 1000 pounds of gold. The Romans are like, you’ve got to be kidding me.

Dr Rad 20:54
Yeah. And when the Romans try and point this out in my account, this is a very dramatic moment where the military tribunes say, I’m very sorry to be that guy. But I couldn’t help but notice that the mathematics of this situation, they just don’t seem to be 100% correct. I think you might be asking for more than 1000 pounds of gold, and this is where a Gallic soldier rips out his sword, throws it on the pile where they’re stacking up all their stuff to skew the weights, and says “Woe to the conquered”, which is a fancy way of saying tough titties, guys, we get to call the shots around here.

Dr G 20:59
Yeah, this idea of this phrase that variously translated as “Woe to the conquered”, “Woe to the vanquished”, and the Gauls basically standing there at this moment of a peace treaty being like some of these ones.

Dr Rad 23:52
Dr G is giving me two fingers up for those listening in audio format only.

Dr G 23:58
And this phrase passes into Latin proverb, it becomes a thing that they say to each other.

Dr Rad 24:03
It does. Well, and this, it’s no wonder the Romans go back to this supposed moment, because it’s obviously deeply shameful that not only was their city taken, not only did the Gauls steal a bunch of their stuff and set a bunch of their buildings on fire, allegedly, not only did they massacre the elderly patricians, senators, whatever you want to call them, and not only have they continued to siege for a number of months, but they haven’t been able to get themselves out of this situation, and now they’re actually having to pay to get these guys to go. I mean, I can’t really imagine much of a lower point for the Romans at this moment in time.

Dr G 24:45
This is a huge low point. I don’t think Rome has ever been so low. I put it to you because from the very beginning, they’ve been on a upwards trajectory with some little bumps in the road, admittedly. But always quite quickly back to an upwards trajectory, and this, this is a massive blow. Most of their population doesn’t seem to be in the city. It’s limited in supplies. They’re at their wits end. They don’t think they’ve got any help coming. If they know about Camillus, which is not clear from my source material that they do, then they really are having to make the best decision that they can for their own survival under terrible circumstances, and they’re just really lucky that the Gauls agree to go away for a sum of cash, because, I mean, any other enemy in central Italy at this time, and Rome has a few of them would probably not have gone, yeah, give us some cash and we’ll go.

Dr Rad 25:48
Yeah, well, and that, I think, shows the fact that the Gauls aren’t necessarily here because they want to establish, like a permanent settlement themselves in this particular location. I think that’s why they’re happy to accept this money. Apparently, in order to go away, they’re interested in having portable wealth. And this is, this is part of the narrative that we’re given about why Gauls are on the move at this time, they are looking for more land. They’re looking for more goods. And so with them being so far south at this point in time, they probably do want stuff that they can carry – cash and carry only, thank you very much. And that might explain some of the archaeology, the fact that we don’t find a huge conflagration in the in the records when we sort of dig down deep enough, there is evidence of a great fire that probably was fairly destructive, but it’s just not the right time period. And even though we might be a few years off here with the Gallic siege, obviously, people sort of speculate it happened sort of between 390 and sort of 387 386 because of the differences in dating. But it’s definitely at around this time that this supposedly happened, this encounter. So the dating is just off. It would make sense if the Gauls were more interested in stealing things, because that wouldn’t leave any trace in the archaeological records for us to see, and it explains why, in spite of the fact that the Romans think that the Gauls set most of their city on fire, there are, in fact, still buildings and inscriptions and statues that predate the Gallic sack of Rome standing hundreds of years later into Livy’s time.

Dr G 27:24
I think there’s also something to be said for the way that the authors of the sources that we’re able to access have particular ideas about the Gauls because of Rome’s engagement with Gallia in the first century BC as well. So there’s a very particular picture that has been built up about what Gallic people are like on the basis of things like Caesar’s campaigns in Gaul and so for a Roman writer like Livy and even for a Greek writer like Didorus Siculus, there is a sense in which there is a pre-established idea about what Gallic people are like. They’re a raid and plunder kind of people. They are not about firm sort of settlements, necessarily. They’re more about moving and raiding and being able to pick up and be on the go if they need to. And those kinds of ideas, I think, are partly what is feeding into this narrative as well, because the Romans don’t conceive of the Gallic people as a people that would want to stay in Italy, even though, historically, they’ve been in the northern parts of Italy for a few centuries already, and they got to have lived somewhere.

Dr Rad 28:49
Hey

Dr G 28:50
They’ve probably put down some roots.

Dr Rad 28:52
It’s well beyond where the Romans are at this point in time. Northern Italy, what’s that? Now, this is where I’d like to do a bit of a tangent, if I may. Dr, G, I mean, I know, I know, I’m making this series even longer, but I have been doing a bit of extra reading around these accounts, because it’s so complicated, picking apart the slightly different narratives that we get and the details that we get. And as we say, we’re dealing with this thing where we’ve got this very epic, detailed narrative history, and yet at the same time, we’re kind of like, did this happen though, Livy, did it? I have some questions, exactly, so I’m going to put it to you. Dr G, where the hell did this 1000 pounds of gold come from?

Dr G 29:35
Well, I would say if it came from anywhere, it’d have to be the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, because that’s on the Capitolini hill. Otherwise, not sure.

Dr Rad 29:47
Yeah, and this is exactly the problem. This is something that one of the academics I read has delved into. If you’d like to read the article, please check out our show notes. They have tried to figure out, okay, so where’s the money coming from? Because in our different accounts, we’re given slightly different details, which probably reflects the particular perspective of the person writing. So the account that we get of this whole galaxy each of course, is that most Romans have left by the time the Gauls arrive. You know they the Romans are defeated at the Alia. They know things aren’t going well for them. They’ve scattered. We know that a lot of the population has therefore left the city. The whole idea is you just have this band of fighting men and a couple of extras who are left behind, and then, of course, the older gentlemen who are all sorted so they don’t count.

Dr G 30:37
Yeah, anybody who reasonably could go has gone.

Dr Rad 30:41
Yes, exactly. And we know that because this was seen as such a monumental moment for Roman history. Obviously, this is a story that was told and retold, and, you know, we slightly reworked over time, depending, I guess, on what the Romans needed to sort of get out of it, I suppose. So, what this person has actually suggested is that what we’re witnessing here was, in fact, a total Gallic capture of Rome. So the entire city is taken. It’s not this situation where some of the buildings are set on fire, but then the girls say, You know what? We’re going to leave you just a tiny little bit of hope so that you’re going to pierce the ransom and leave some of the buildings, etc, etc.

Dr G 31:20
I like that one, leave it.

Dr Rad 31:23
I think this is a total takeover. And then we have to figure out where are the assets coming from? Because we only have this tiny group who are left behind and starving to death. Where are they coming up with 1000 pounds of gold? Now, in Livy’s account, he is very particular that they do not use temple treasure in the ransom.

Dr G 31:43
Oh, well, that’s a problem that’s my one source.

Dr Rad 31:49
Well, the reason being, of course, and this feeds into the other things I’ve been telling you, Livy is all about protocol at this point in time. You know, the Romans have got themselves into this situation, apparently, because of their lack of attention to the signs that the gods are sending them there, they got off balance with the gods. They weren’t doing things properly, not pious enough. And so now they’re in this situation. And once they’re in this situation, when the chips are down, they’re doing everything by the book. So even when they’re besieged, they’re like, We have to go through the proper procedures to appoint a dictator. Guys, can’t just wait for someone to come in on a white horse. You know how we feel about white horses, especially if there’s more than one of them, we really got to make sure we do everything properly. You know, cross every T, dot every I.

Dr G 32:36
You know what? In our alternative history, it’s really fortunate that Camillus isn’t around, actually, because he would have talked them into giving over the temple treasure, and then it would have all gone downhill from,

Dr Rad 32:47
I don’t know, I don’t know if he would. He’s such a pious guy, it’s all very confusing. But anyway, in Livy’s account, it’s not the temple treasure, okay? Because that would be, obviously, it’s, I suppose, slightly offensive to the gods, you know, not perhaps exactly the picture he wants to paint at this point in time. And so it’s just state gold. I mean, I guess it’s possible that they just have some state gold with them, because, as I constantly point out, when discussing climate change, you can’t eat money, so you may as well use your money to fix the situation around. But yeah, so maybe they do, I suppose, have some state gold. They don’t have quite enough, and this is where Roman matrons apparently chip in some of their gold in order to make up the balance. This will come back to later, and it’s because of the Roman citizens pulling together, uniting, showing what Rome is all about, showing off those values that they’re able to make up the account. In other accounts, it absolutely is temple treasure that is used. However, we also have to question exactly the nature of this temple treasure, because, of course, we know that a lot of valuable objects have been taken. We had that whole story, Dr G about the Vestals fleeing in a cart meant for a family, and they’re far, far away, and they’ve buried some of the treasure as well, so they don’t have access to everything at this point in time, even Varro, who is one of these antiquarians we were talking about before, who we only have snippets of, he is one of the sources that we have that mentions that temple treasures were used, but also jewelry donated by Roman matrons.

Dr G 34:31
Look, it wouldn’t surprise me if they’re scrounging for every piece of gold that can get their hands on. Really, they’re confined to the Capitoline hill, so that immediately limits their physical accessibility to storage. So it’s either temples or if they do have a physical structure that houses the public treasury at this point, which is when I’m not sure archaeologists, please weigh in and let us know. Did they have a public treasury building at this point? Was it on the Capitoline? If yes, we can all start to make sense of this. But turning to the people themselves seems the ultimate answer to this as well, because once you’ve depleted all of the publicly accessible wealth, what do you do next? If you’re still falling short, and this is a very specific figure that we’ve been given 1000 pounds of gold is a massive amount to ask, and it’s the kind of round figure that that feels questionable, like many of the round figures that we get from ancient sources, but it’s obviously designed, from a literary perspective, to give us a sense of the overwhelming nature of what the Gauls require in order to go away, to perhaps lessen Roman shame around this idea that they had to capitulate, that it was a capitulation that was substantial enough to make sense, that they they did it, and it was possible, and it allows them maybe to save some face there. But I think it’s really, it’s a really interesting question that this scholar has asked, like, what gold?

Dr Rad 36:09
Follow the money

Dr G 36:10
Like where? Yeah yeah yeah. And it’s hard to follow the money when we have so little understanding of what’s going on in that archaeological record.

Dr Rad 36:19
Well, yeah, the more they pulled these threads, the more I was like, Oh, my God, they’re totally right. Because not only have all the Romans gone, not only have they apparently removed a lot of the valuables for safe keeping, the Gauls have then plundered all the rest of the parts of the city, apart from the capital. So it’s not like the Romans can sneak out and get their little piggy bank from their house that they left behind. It’s all gone.

Dr G 36:42
Although maybe that’s exactly what they did. I mean, we had that priest who snuck down into the forum…

Dr Rad 36:48
Not snuck he just walked out. He was just like, out of my way. I’ve got a ritual to perform.

Dr G 36:52
But if he could get away with that, maybe everyone’s like, you know what? I’m just gonna do a quick, sneaky run to my house. I’ll be back.

Dr Rad 36:59
I’m now come back, bring a Gallic warrior with like a spear held above somebody’s head, as a Roman, you know, pulls aside like a fresco, and it’s like, yeah, getting into their wall safe.

Dr G 37:10
Exactly. It was like, I know where the family jewels are hidden. I’ll be back, guys. Give me five minutes.

Dr Rad 37:15
I think this is the way this scholar is sort of imagining it. So basically, to preserve Rome’s dignity, as you were talking about, we have this scenario where they have at least managed to keep the Gauls off the Capitol, and even though that it’s extremely shameful to enter into these negotiations, have to pay the Gauls to go away, at least the Gauls, in this narrative, didn’t take the Capitol. You know, it was all protected. This scholar, I think, is suggesting that’s actually not the case. Everything was taken, and this is why the Romans find themselves in this scenario. And of course, they actually probably don’t have the resources. And if everything was taken, then maybe we are actually dealing with a ransom situation. Because if we think about that particular institution of Rome, the patron-client relationship, which, whilst we can’t obviously be 100% sure exactly how it played out at this point in time, it is a constant. We know it existed at this point in time, there would have been an obligation to help out. If you could, you know, call on your clients, or, you know, you know, call on your patrons. There’s an obligation there to help each other out. And so it’s possible that what actually happened in this scholar’s imagination is that the Romans are calling on outside sources, maybe even other cities. So like Caere has come up in our narrative, we know that Rome is going to, after all this is over, have a special relationship with Caere because they, you know, they were real, a real pal, a real solid friend in Rome’s time of need. And maybe this is indicative of a role that Caere played that has not made it into the narrative in the most accurate way, perhaps that you know the reason why the Romans have this sense of obligation to them, and with so many Romans sort of spread in the surrounding area, this scholar sort of highlighted that it would have been potentially possible to call on these outside sources To deal with this ransom situation, and it would explain why Livy can’t exactly pinpoint for us, where have these state funds been hidden this entire time? What’s going on with, you know, the matrons? You know, not, not even all the patricians, are in Rome. It’s not like, we’re talking about, like all the rich guys stayed behind to fight. No, they didn’t. It’s just a select group of people, so it’s just a question of, yeah, it doesn’t seem likely that they’re going to have everything that they possibly need, particularly if they are completely under Gaelic control, and the capital was potentially actually seized. At this point in time?

Dr G 40:01
Yeah, definitely. And thinking back to earlier accounts of this same situation, we know that even though some of the women stayed that the men weren’t happy about that, they thought they were just going to be a burden.

Dr Rad 40:18
Well, women can’t fight or do anything useful!

Dr G 40:25
Not from a Roman perspective, but maybe they were making the bread. Goodness knows, if I was a matron who had finally made some bread and then my fellow men had thrown it off the Capitoline, I mean, I would be ropeable.

Dr Rad 40:43
Talk about the mental load.

Dr G 40:46
And so even in the context where I think this is a nice, also a literary echo, the idea that the matrons are giving up their jewelry, because this is referencing another moment in history a couple of centuries later.

Dr Rad 40:59
Yes, well, we’ve had this happen before, not that long ago as well, like where matrons have given up, yeah, yeah.

Dr G 41:05
And again, probably that one also maybe a literary echo.

Dr Rad 41:09
You ruin everything, Dr G.

Dr G 41:12
And this idea that in in times where Rome is really in strife, that it’s actually the women who come forward and do the thing that needs to be done in order to get things across the line. And so Rome has this sort of ongoing narrative about itself, where, when it when push comes to shove, it is the matrons who stand up, and it makes all of their narratives around women being unhelpful or not useful, not in their place, blah, blah, blah, or the misogyny incredibly infuriating, because every time the Roman men have ruined it to the point where it’s not working anymore, those women stand up and say, fine, you know what? I’ll get us out of this.

Dr Rad 41:58
I’m getting a big scenario here. Okay, so these starving Roman men have just pelted Gallic soldiers underneath with the remaining bread that they have left. And then they turn around, their anger kind of disappears, and they’re like, What are we going to do now? And there are some women just sitting there on a couch, and they’re like, Well, who needs my help now, boys?

Dr G 42:25
Exactly – every time Roman women come through.

Dr Rad 42:28
Now, there is a detail that this scholar has highlighted, which I actually probably would have missed, because there’s a bit of a gap. We’ll come to it later, but there is a bit of a gap in between this moment and when this reference comes up in a few years, when we get to another moment involving our hero of the Capitol, Marcius Manlius Capitolinius, he’s going to become a real douchebag in a few years. And when he is being a douchebag, he makes reference to the fact that the patricians are somehow hiding the Gallic gold, and they’re somehow abusing public funds. And it’s thought that this could be a reference to the fact that it is definitely the plebs that have managed to escape with all their movable wealth, which might be more than usual, because, of course, we’ve just had the conquest. They things have been going relatively well for Rome. So who knows what the plebs managed to escape with? Who knows what they’ve got in Veii. But these people who have pitched in to pay this ransom, if they are indeed from outside of the city at this moment in time, they then obviously want that money to be accounted for in the aftermath of this ransom being paid. And there’s this very brief reference that sort of indicates that Livy knows, or at least he’s repeating something, and maybe he hasn’t even picked up on, you know, the significance of what he’s sort of saying here, but that there is something else that’s gone on here that’s been kind of concealed in his original narrative.

Dr Rad 42:29
Wow. Look like I said earlier. I think Livy’s account has some question marks over it, so…

Dr Rad 43:58
Well it does, because, of course, one of the things we’re going to get into in the aftermath, and I’m sorry to give this away, but there is going to be disputes about land, as we’re going to go back to that old chestnut in a few years. And it’s possible that one of the reasons why this pops up is because the plebs contributed to saving Rome in this moment. And therefore, when we’re talking about distributing land, which, of course, is a form of wealth, a base of wealth, and particularly in this sort of society here, that there is something to do with this moment of crisis in terms of why they feel perhaps they have a stake in what’s going on going forward after this particular moment. Definitely, I think it makes sense to raise all these sorts of questions, and we’re about to get to this moment in my account, and I’m sorry again for spoilers, because I don’t want to ruin the drama here, but I sort of have to highlight it now. I have no choice, Dr G, Camillus is going to show up in my account whilst this is all happening. Okay, this is where he makes his heroic return.

Dr G 45:17
Agent of chaos – back on the scene.

Dr Rad 45:19
Yeah, absolutely. And he’s going to set everything to rights. Don’t you worry. Dr G, here he comes to save the day. But it’s possible that the Gauls are the ones that actually get screwed over here. So we have this account, obviously, where the Gauls are being tricksy, because, you know, that’s what they’re like. Where’s their code of honour? But what if it’s actually the other way around, and Camillus showing up here? Maybe Camillus is showing up to make the payment, or maybe there’s, maybe there’s a band of Romans showing up to make the payment, and then they get all tricksy.

Dr G 45:59
I’m going to hold on to to what I’ve said earlier, which is that there was at least one other scholar in my corner who says Diodorus Siculus has the most accurate account of the stuff that’s going on.

Dr Rad 46:12
Look, I have read such things, even though it seems ludicrous.

Dr G 46:16
And the thing is that Camillus is in no way involved in the Gallic siege, beginning to end. He’s not there. He’s just not there, and he turns up not only after the Gauls have left, so they’ve received their payment and keeping to their word, although winking and laughing to themselves as they go, being like, wasn’t that a bit of fun. As they exit stage left, the Volscians enter stage right. And it is only when the Volscians have turned up being like, oh, Rome, this is the best thing we’ve seen. Look at you now, and the Volscians are gearing up for what they think is going to be a very easy takedown of Rome at this point, because the Romans are just sort of lying on the Capitol line Hill being like, I’m so glad the Gauls have gone and I don’t even know what I’m going to eat, because there’s nothing up here, and I don’t know if I can crawl down far enough to find a piece of bread that I threw three days ago. And while they’re doing that, the Volscians are like and it is only then, it seems, that Camillus sort of emerges out of the countryside with a fully fledged force that he’s been gathering for quite some time, probably made up from the folk of Veii and people he’s come across in the countryside who are also Roman, who like, oh, Camilius! Ah! Well! And he has turned up, and it’s the Volscians that he engages with initially, because that’s the most immediate threat that Rome is facing.

Dr Rad 47:59
Well, look, I am just going to say that Livy’s account is far more comforting than this rubbish you are spewing, Dr G, if we go with Livy’s account, then the Romans are not so impious or lame as to use their temple treasures in order to pay the Gauls. They hold onto the Capitol. There is no complete Gallic invasion the Romans at least, can say that they’ve done their duty to the city, and then they get Camillus to show up and put everything to right and put those freaking barbarians in their place. Livy’s account is the account to go for because, let me tell you. Dr G, this is the moment where Camillus settles up. Because, of course, the gods are not going to let the Romans be pulverized into the ground because they’ve been doing the right thing. They’ve been making sure that everything is appropriate. So it’s whilst there’s argument over the weight where the Romans keep saying, No, I refuse to believe that this is 1000 pounds in gold. I think you’re being a tricksy little Gaul. And the Gauls are saying, I am so evil. I have no interest in your concerns, Roman accountant.

Dr G 49:18
And it’s like, what are you gonna do about it? How you’re going to stop me?

Dr Rad 49:21
Exactly. So the stalling is when Camillus enters the scene and no money has actually changed hands. So the shame of Rome is somewhat averted by the entrance of Camillus, because whilst they’re about to make the payment, they don’t. No, instead, Camillus shows up and says, hey guys, why don’t you make like a tree and leave the Gauls say, I don’t think so, mate, we had a deal. Now this, of course, is the moment where maybe Camillus is actually showing up with the money the Gauls are just waiting to get the money. And instead of paying them, Camillus and his band start a war. And the Gauls are like, what the hell I thought we had a deal?

Dr G 50:09
I don’t want to say that this is almost unbelievable, but there’s a lot of holes in this story.

Dr Rad 50:15
It gets better. Camillus then says, pish-tosh, your deal is null and void because you made it with some other magistrate, some lowly military tribune with consular power. Whereas I am dictator. So put that in your pipe and smoke it King Brennus. Instead of a pile of gold, I’m going to be giving you a steaming pile of war. How do you like that?

Dr G 50:46
I do like how the Romans have turned into British imperial, aka Star Wars style.

Dr Rad 50:53
Entirely intentional, I assure you. I’m just following Livy’s account to the letter.

Dr G 51:00
Look. So problem number one the timeline. Camillus is not here. He’s just not here. He’s somewhere else. He doesn’t turn up. The money definitely changes hands. As far as Diodorus Siculus is concerned, the Romans give over the 1000 pounds of gold. The Gauls start to walk away. In Diodorus’ account, Camillus isn’t even appointed dictator until he turns up and the Volscians are already at Rome’s door. And Rome is like, We really need your assistance. And he’s like, Well, I need to be able to command troops, because I don’t have permission to do that, because I’m an exile. And they’re like, oh, right, right, right, right, right. Quick meeting. Quick meeting. Quick dictator title is offered. And so it’s this idea in this intense situation where the Gauls are moving off into the distance with all of the treasure, the Volscians there being like, and the Romans are like, okay, we’ll make it legal for you to lead this army that you’ve turned up with. Camilius, please, please, please. And he’s like, sure thing now that I have the legal right to do so, I’m willing to help out. And the moment of the dictatorship is post 1000 pounds of gold. It is also post the arrival of the Volscians and he’s very late in the piece. So his contribution, essentially, to the Gallic sack of Rome is zero, because by the time that he turns up the Gallic sack has happened, and he’s just picking up the crumbs and being like, I’ll help you guys out. It’s probably time that I did something. And everyone’s like, please do you’re the only one who’s been fed in six months.

Dr Rad 52:48
Look, I don’t enjoy these moments. Dr, G, but I mean, you’re just so wrong. Camillus is quite clearly coming in like the white knight that he is. He then turns around to the soldiers that he’s been drilling Rocky 1975 style, and says, throw your packs down on the ground, get your weapons. We’re gonna win Rome’s freedom through iron, not gold. Who’s with me? And everyone loses their minds, because in Livy’s account, the Romans now have every motivation to fight. They’ve got their city not in shambles, even though they kind of keep referencing the fact that it is partly in shambles, not well maintained, their families, but most importantly, their gods, their temples clearly still standing, at least in part. The Capitol, of course, not being touched. And so the grand temple on the Capitol is indeed still standing and of course, the soil, the soil itself from which they were birthed, not really, but let’s run with it. They can just see it all before them, everything that their faith, everything that their gods, everything that their land has allowed them to live for and now they get to defend, recover, avenge.

Dr G 54:29
Wow.

Dr Rad 54:31
Camillus then readies his forces and draws up his battle lines, even though this is incredibly difficult because Rome’s landscape is extremely uneven, and there’s crap everywhere because it’s been devastated, but he always makes sure that the Romans are in the best position possible to give them every chance of winning. The Gauls have no idea what’s going on. They didn’t expect this. Surprise dictator to show up with his rocky trained Sylvester Stallone forces at his back. They’ve got their weapons and armor and typically for barbarians, attack with more rage than judgment. Oh yes, we’re back into the racist territory here. But fortune was no longer on their side. So they can be as angry as they want. Fortune’s back with the Romans, Dr G, they’ve been punished enough. They’ve had to watch their city burn in part, kind of, not really. They’ve had to watch their families leave kind of, maybe not really. It’s Rome’s moment, and so the Gauls are very quickly overcome. I mean, considering the siege has gone on for as long as it is, it’s almost too hard to believe that they are so easily overcome. But this is “Alia Part Two: Judgment Day”. Rome gets to win this time. It’s all been fixed. But then comes a second battle, which is described as a more regular engagement, which I presume means that everyone knows it’s coming this time, and they’re, you know, properly attired and ready for it, and that sort of thing…

Dr Rad 56:14
Please please. I’ve got to put on my military boots.

Dr Rad 56:18
I didn’t even put on my eye makeup. My hair’s still in rollers. It happens about eight miles out on the Gabinian Way where the Gauls had withdrawn after their first disastrous defeat by Camillus. But I mean, with Camillus on the Roman side, do they even stand a chance? No, they don’t. Dr, G, they definitely do not. And they are defeated again.

Dr G 56:40
Wow, yeah, wow.

Dr Rad 56:42
I’m as exhausted as a Roman has been on the Capitoline for seven months.

Dr G 56:49
Well, look, I look forward to our next episode together, where I will tell listeners and your good self the true history of what happens with Camillus and the Gallic siege.

Dr Rad 57:03
I don’t think you can come back from this, Dr G, Livy is quite clear that the Gauls are massacred and there’s not a single survivor.

Dr G 57:09
So there is a lot of material to work with here.

Dr Rad 57:13
If that ain’t the truth, I don’t know what is. I mean, Camillus, this is like, you know, another second founding moment. He’s secured Rome, able to head back to Rome, victorious. I mean, just, everything’s just perfect again.

Dr G 57:26
Everything’s fallen into place.

Dr Rad 57:29
Totally is. I mean, is there a limit to how many times Camillus can save Rome? I just don’t think that there is.

Dr G 57:38
Yeah, look, definitely not. I mean, he’s done it again. Go sunshine.

Dr Rad 57:41
Yep. Everyone’s turning around and saying, You know what? We’re gonna start calling you Romulus, because you are the second founder of the city, Camillus.

Dr G 57:49
Dangerous, dangerous times.

Dr Rad 57:52
All right, Dr, G, now that I am spent with all that drama

Dr G 57:56
much like the Romans themselves, after these adventures,

Dr Rad 57:59
exactly, yeah, I think it’s time for the Partial Pick. All right. Dr, G, please tell us what is the Partial Pick?

Dr G 58:11
Well, we’re going to rate those Romans according to their own criteria that we made up. They are up for a total of 50 golden eagles, 10 in each category. The first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 58:29
Well, I mean, can you really put too many eagles on the fact that the Romans have just killed all the Gauls that were besieging them for so long.

Dr G 58:41
You have to think about this in terms of the 80% of the episode where they were starving to death.

Dr Rad 58:48
I’m taking a Livian approach, where I just focus on the good stuff that makes Rome look better.

Dr G 58:53
Only interested in results, guys, results only. Yeah, look, I’m unwilling to overlook the 80% of the terrible times that they had where there was not a whiff of military cloud, there was, in fact, mostly the breeze of things going badly.

Dr Rad 59:13
Yeah, okay, look, look, I will concede that it’s probably likely that Rome didn’t have a good time at this moment. Whether it was 390 BCE or 387 or whatever, it’s probably not great.

Dr G 59:30
No, yeah, not ideal. I’m glad that they’ve made a comeback, if we’re just basing it on Camillus’ military clout, yeah, according to Livy, which – question marks

Dr Rad 59:39
Should we have two ratings this time where, like, one’s the Livy version was probably what really happened?

Dr G 59:46
Yeah, look, I think it might end up being the case that we give a really high score now because Livy’s version is so powerful, and then we might give a very different score later, when we get through Diodorus Siculus and what he has to say about the same situation.

Dr Rad 59:59
Okay. Let’s do it. Let’s look at the sunshine and lollipops version.

Dr G 1:00:03
As military clout, yeah. And if we’re thinking about what Camilo has done according to Livy, very powerful, yeah, very moving, yeah. I mean, just strategy, like, yeah, not just the surprise battle, but also the second earlier, the refounding, the Romulus thing, obviously, that’s, that’s a 10, like, it does not get better than that.

Dr Rad 1:00:24
I know. I mean, it’s like a total do over. It’s literally the sequel, but it’s, it’s better than the first movie. And that never happens.

Dr G 1:00:33
Yeah, don’t turn it into a trilogy, because then things go down, it’ll stay with the second film being the best.

Dr Rad 1:00:39
Livy’s not done with Camillus, yeah. He actually is a bit like Rocky in that he will keep coming back. Will keep coming back, even when he probably shouldn’t.

Dr G 1:00:46
As long as we get to the Michael B Jordan films later. That’s fine by me. So military clout, I’m happy to offer Livy’s account just on the basis of just how dramatic it is and how fulsome Camillus powers are. It’s definitely a 10.

Dr Rad 1:01:02
Thanks. All right, what’s our next category then?

Dr G 1:01:07
The second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:01:10
Ooh, okay, well, there is some negotiation going on.

Dr G 1:01:13
We finally have some diplomacy. We definitely people from different sides coming together.

Dr Rad 1:01:20
Yes, it’s not great, either the Gauls were very deceptive and using their power to exploit the Romans, or the Romans struck a deal and then stabbed them in the back.

Dr G 1:01:34
I mean, the good news is that we don’t have to rate the Gauls because it’s not their problem, and we only care about what the Romans are up to, really, I think.

Dr Rad 1:01:42
This is true either way. I think whichever account you look at that we’ve talked about today, I think it’s probably good for the Romans. The tricky thing is there are other accounts that we haven’t got to yet of how the ransom was actually recovered, which is not by Camilius or Roman army, possibly by the people of Caere or maybe even one of Tiberius ancestors in some sort of single combat later on, didn’t mention that.

Dr G 1:02:17
Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert.

Dr Rad 1:02:19
Yeah

Dr G 1:02:20
Yeah. We won’t get to those. So as terms of how the diplomacy has gone for the Romans, in the version that we’ve looked at, which is predominantly Livy at the moment, yeah, also a little bit of Plutarch, yeah, the diplomacy has been the Romans have done their best, and even when the Gauls have goaded them and poked them and being like, whoa, to the conquered and all of that kind of stuff. And uploaded the more items – uploaded?

Dr Rad 1:02:45
Get the t shirt, get the merch.

Dr G 1:02:49
Whack another shield on the scale, and are having a cheeky time about it. The Romans have matched them yes to get out of this situation. So the Romans, For the first time maybe have been pretty proactive in their diplomacy, because they’re at their wit’s end, and they know that. They don’t – they’re in a corner. They they must do something.

Dr Rad 1:03:11
How diplomatic thought is it there that their first round of negotiations ended up with them throwing their bread supplies?

Dr G 1:03:18
Well, we can certainly give them a lower score.

Dr Rad 1:03:20
I don’t approve of the throwing of baked goods in diplomatic situations, Dr G.

Dr G 1:03:25
It’s a waste of a good pastry, that is. And I disapprove from a love of carbs perspective,

Dr Rad 1:03:31
Absolutely.

Dr G 1:03:31
So I think diplomacy may be a five.

Dr Rad 1:03:34
Okay, all right, yeah, fair enough, yeah. I’ll sit with that.

Dr G 1:03:37
Then we move on to expansion.

Dr Rad 1:03:39
Okay. Well, no matter what account you look at, no is the answer.

Dr G 1:03:44
We’ll have none of that around here. It’s not the time.

Dr Rad 1:03:46
No, even if we go with Livy’s very sunshiny version of things, they’re just getting back what they had taken from them in a very humiliating way.

Dr G 1:03:56
This is true. This is true.

Dr Rad 1:03:57
Yeah,

Dr G 1:03:58
Virtus?

Dr Rad 1:04:00
Okay, well, I think maybe Camillus. Come on. You know, you wanna…

Dr G 1:04:08
What has he done? What has he done?

Dr Rad 1:04:10
He’s been there, Dr G as the dictator. He’s trained an elite force of 80s action heroes for your benefit.

Dr G 1:04:19
Doom do-do-dooo

Dr Rad 1:04:24
Yeah. I think Camillus definitely deserve some points here if we’re sticking with our pattern.

Dr G 1:04:33
But is that virtus? I mean, that’s military prowess. Sure, that’s training up some people. That’s getting people fired up. But does that constitute an understanding of Roman manliness in this moment? I’m not sure that it does.

Dr Rad 1:04:48
I feel like it does, because of what he says to them. You know, when he turns up and the Romans are trying to be diplomatic about the fact that they’re starving to death and the Gauls are piling shields onto the weights, and the Romans are like, I don’t really have the strength to raise my index finger, but I must object to these goings on. It’s just not cricket. Camilius shows up in this moment and is like, we’re not paying you a goddamn thing. You can take your crap and get out of here. We’re gonna win it back through military powers. I kind of feel like that’s got a bit of a virtus moment to it, you know, like, maybe not like a 10, but I feel like it’s, it’s something, and then he massacres them, kills every single Gaul.

Dr G 1:05:35
Every single one.

Dr Rad 1:05:38
Yeah, I mean, practically single handedly. Now I’m embellishing, my embellished account, but

Dr G 1:05:42
What a man, what a man, what a man, what a migthy good man.

Dr Rad 1:05:46
He’s a mighty mighty good man.

Dr G 1:05:49
Camillus, er, virtus, er…

Dr Rad 1:05:51
I want to take a minute or two to give much respect to, to the man that’s made a difference in Rome’s world

Dr G 1:05:56
I do love that song, one of the classics. Okay, so what would you rate this virtus? Because I’m still a bit on the fence, so I’m interested in your perspective on this.

Dr Rad 1:06:06
I know it’s not one of those sorts of moments where, like, the gods are literally shining a beam of sunshine on his head whilst he single handedly charges into battle in like, slow motion and all that kind of stuff. But I feel like it’s got to be like, maybe a two, you know, just something, because I feel like it’s a moment. It’s a moment. I mean, you get called the second founder of Rome. I feel like it’s, it’s something.

Dr G 1:06:30
Oh, yeah, I’m not sure that that’s virtus, though. I’m pretty sure that that sort of encapsulates other things. But, yes, all right, two.

Dr Rad 1:06:37
No, but I think, you know, the the title reflects the deeds, you know, like the look, I’m just, I’m just on a high right now, and I demand those points. You can’t quote Salt’N’Peppa at me and not expect me to fight for my man.

Dr G 1:06:53
Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, happy for it to be. Thank you. I appreciate it. The final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:07:01
Okay, well, again

Dr G 1:07:03
It depends on which citizen you are really.

Dr Rad 1:07:05
Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you’re in exile, maybe it’s all right, but if we go with what was suggested by the academic I read, then they’re having to pay tax and they’re not even in the city.

Dr G 1:07:20
Yeah, not a lot of benefit there.

Dr Rad 1:07:23
No. I mean, the women are involved, Dr G, the women,

Dr G 1:07:26
Even the women!

Dr Rad 1:07:28
Yeah, that’s not a good sign. I saw gold jewelry. They don’t have any anymore. They don’t have any. I’ve given it away for a good cause, room itself. Even though I’m so weak from hunger, I need to have a statement necklace. Hold body upright, show off décolletage…

Dr G 1:07:50
Don’t make me give up the family jewels. I’ll die with this brooch.

Dr Rad 1:07:54
I need to have a shiny ring, so when I flip the gauze off, it sparkles in their eyes.

Dr G 1:08:02
So it’s not a great time to be a patrician matron, I would say.

Dr Rad 1:08:06
No, well, I mean nobody. I mean if you’re in the city, you’re starving to death and possibly taken captive

Dr G 1:08:11
Not ideal. If you’re in Veii, you’re kind of looking wistfully over yonder, being like, I don’t know if this is going to work out for us. And if you’re in Camillus training camp, you’re probably like, let’s get jacked.

Dr Rad 1:08:24
Well, I mean, let’s face it, is that a good time, not a good time in my books? Dr, G, that’s why I’ve never been fit a day in my life. So, yeah, I think if you’re in the whether you’re in the Rocky montage, or whether you’re in exile somewhere else, or whether you’re starving to death on the Capitoline, it’s not good, okay? Camillus is the only one happening in good time, right?

Dr G 1:08:43
He does count as a citizen as well, I suppose so. It sounds to me like we’re dealing with something between a zero and maybe a one.

Dr Rad 1:08:51
I think zero, yeah, it’s got to be zero. I think, yeah.

Dr Rad 1:08:54
Well done and dusted.

Dr Rad 1:08:56
All right, Dr, G, that means that, surprisingly, the Romans have, once again, managed to get a far higher score than I thought. But let’s face it, that’s mostly down to Livy. So Livy, this one’s for you. Rome gets 17 golden eagles. None of them probably deserved.

Dr G 1:09:15
Wow. The power of a good narrative, Livy, he’s really selling us a tale, isn’t he?

Dr Rad 1:09:20
Hey, what can I tell you? I mean this, this is a lesson in ancient historiography. You know, you got a right to please the people. Got to have some flair. Can’t just be fact, fact, fact. Yeah, have that space, that space, that Roman spice, that patrician spice.

Dr G 1:09:39
Well, I really look forward to getting together next time and maybe talking a little bit more about what Diodorus Siculus has to say about this whole situation, and just see maybe where the narrative lands.

Dr Rad 1:09:52
Then I’m going to put quite a limb. Dr, G and say I’m seeing a part seven in our future.

Dr G 1:10:00
Quite possible. In terms of my notes, we have made very little progress in this episode.

Dr Rad 1:10:05
Like a paragraph long.

Dr G 1:10:06
I’ve gotten through two dot points. It’s really not enough. I thought I’d get through maybe five.

Dr Rad 1:10:11
I’m sorry. It’s just, you know what? You’ve got to follow the money. Dr, G, you’ve got to follow the money.

Dr G 1:10:17
Yeah, oh yeah. Well, I’ll continue to do that in my research, and we’ll see where that leads us next time.

Dr Rad 1:10:23
See you. Dr, G.

Dr G 1:10:25
Farewell.

Dr G 1:10:32
Thanks for listening. If you’d like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-Fi. We’ve also published two books on ancient Roman history. “Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome”, examines the different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history. “Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire” is full of the sorts of stories the Romans wished you didn’t know about them, and is guaranteed to make the interesting conversation. Thank you to all our Patreon supporters. We are truly humbled by your patronage.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 170 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 5 appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Marc Hyden returns to the show to discuss the life and times about the second Flavian emperor Titus. The Flavians were the second dynasty of the imperial period extending from 69 CE until the assassination of Domitian in 96 CE. Titus’ reign is short, but significant. We sit down with Marc to consider details of Titus’ rule of Rome and its impact across the Mediterranean, particularly involving Judaea.

Marc’s book Emperor Titus: The Right Hand of Vespasian (2025) is out now and explores at lot of the contextual details that helps us appreciate Titus’ rule as emperor from 79-81 CE.

Nero’s death leads to a period of political chaos in Rome. If you’re keen to delve into the notorious Year of the Four Emperors, we recommend checking out our interview with Dr Rob Cromarty.

Once the dust settles, the military general Vespasian ends up as the top dog in Rome. From unlikely beginnings, Vespasian sets up the Flavian family for dominance over the next thirty years and his eldest son, Titus, was his right-hand man.

It is impossible to truly understand the Flavians’ rise without considering the foothold that they had in Judaea. Military actions in the east were part and parcel of the Roman empire, but the particulars of Vespasian as the Roman general in Judaea when relationships broke down means that Vespasian (and thus the Flavians) are substantially enriched by the sack of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Marc takes us through some of the key details including Josephus’ role in the conflict, the riots across the region

Apparently you can be a Roman a war, but still fall in love with a lady from the local aristocracy. The story of Titus and Berenice is one of the most interesting details of the Flavian era, and we don’t know as much about their relationship than we’d like, but there’s enough gossip to create something of a historical record! Tune in for the details of their seemingly on-again, off-again liaison.

Titus comes into full imperial power on the natural death of his father Vespasian and, oh boy, is he busy. He rules over the eruption of Vesuvius, he formally opens the Flavian Amphitheatre (aka the Colosseum), not to mention a pestilence. With all this busyness, we can only wonder how his reign would have gone if he lived for longer. But sadly it is not to be. Titus dies after a short but intense illness opening wide speculation about the cause of death. We explore some here.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:56
Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:02
And I am Dr G.

Dr Rad 1:05
Dr G, we are once again privileged to be joined by Mark Hyden, who holds a degree in philosophy and has a love for the ancient Roman world, which shines through in his publications. Mark has published books on a number of ancient Roman personalities, including Romulus: Rome’s legendary fratricidal founder; Marcus Furius Camillus – and you can check out our previous interview with Mark on Camillus; Marius, one of the towering figures of the late Republic, and the second Flavian emperor, Titus, who is the subject of this interview. If you’re keen to get into the heady detail of Titus life and rule, then we recommend Mark’s latest book, “Emperor Titus: The Right Hand of Vespasian”. Welcome to the show again, Mark.

Marc Hyden 1:55
Thank you so much for having me a second time at that. I’m gonna have to keep writing books just so I can hang out with both of you.

Dr Rad 2:02
That’s our plan. Always, always more books, more chats.

Dr Rad 2:06
All right. Well, let’s get into the questions shall we, Dr G, and find out more about the emperor Titus?

Dr G 2:12
Oh, yeah, I even like forgot to look at the document properly. So to get into it by the time we truly meet Titus in our historical sources, the Roman Empire has been going through a bit of a rough patch, you could say. So, to get us oriented, I’m wondering if, Mark, you can tell us a little bit about the state of the Roman Empire in 71 CE, when Titus enters Rome, besides his father, Vespasian.

Marc Hyden 2:41
Yeah, absolutely. So Titus was born in what’s known as the Pax Romana. This was the golden age of the Roman Empire. But matters, they weren’t as rosy as the name might suggest. They were regular conflicts with barbarians. There were threats from the east, there was periodic rioting, and there was, of course, deadly Imperial intrigue, which we all love to read about today, but then it wasn’t quite as riveting, but by the time Titus reaches manhood, he Rome is under the control of Emperor Nero. We remember him as kind of the pudgy, lackluster emperor who preferred the arts and athletic contests and an ample helping of sexual deviancy to Imperial administration. So this irked quite a bit of Romans, quite a few Romans, and his problems didn’t end there. Around 64 it comes 64 ad Rome catches fire, as we know, the Great Fire of Rome and much of the city, the majority of it, has turned to ashes. Now, Nero has been blamed for having something to do with this. It seems pretty clear that he didn’t have anything to do with it. However, with Rome turning to ashes, he saw an opportunity to build a grand estate for himself and redesign Rome in his image. And to do so, he siphoned money away from from the provinces like Gaul and even the Jewish homeland, to Rome so that he could realize his his architectural dreams. This is we hear about this, these sorts of things in the ancient accounts. And this overburdened and really upset the provincials. I mean, we don’t like taxes today, and they were even more angry about it back then, apparently. So not long after this goes down, the Jewish people who fell under Rome’s domain, they grew really weary of Rome’s heavy taxes, the constant mistreatment of them, and really it was egregious, some of the things the Romans did to the Jewish people. So as a result, they rose up in revolt. But, you know, we hear about different revolts in the Roman Empire, but this was no minor revolt. It demanded the Emperor’s attention and really immediate action. It also required generals of great repute and 1000s of battle hardened legionaries to be able to quell this, this burgeoning rebellion. So this is when we see Vespasian and Titus and 1000s of legionaries head to the east, and they lead the armies. And over the course of a few years, they neutralize city after city that had stood against Rome until the revolt was really secluded to primarily to Jerusalem, machaerus, Herodium and Masada, which is now very famous, but we see the success and Vespasian and Titus successes were a bit of good news for for Nero, but trouble was brewing in the West. He thought the problems were in the east, but the biggest problem was in the West, because that’s where a rebellion broke out to depose him, and ultimately he saw the writing on the wall, and with the help of his servant, decided to go ahead and kill himself. But that wasn’t the end of the troubles for the Roman Empire, because everyone wanted to be emperor, apparently. So this sparked a cascade of events and civil war in which first Galba, then Otho and then Vitellius all claimed to be emperor, and before long, Titus, you know, he’s sitting over there in the east and his son, or excuse me, Vespasian, his son, Titus, urges him to stake his claim. So Vespasian goes and challenges Titus, and ultimately is successful, and he defeats the corpulent Vitellius, which left Vespasian squarely in control of Rome. So that brings us. We’re in 70 ad at this point, and with Vespasian now sole Emperor with no real other claimants that are legitimate around he tasked his son with finishing off the Jewish revolt by sacking the highly fortified city of Jerusalem, which is where 1000s of rebels had been congregating. And really what resulted is this incredibly bloody, incredibly brutal and lamentable affair that supposedly left upwards of a million Jews dead, at least according to Josephus. But these numbers are a little suspect. But despite this terrible toll, Titus was victorious, and by 71 AD, which is your question, he can finally return to Rome and triumph.

Dr G 7:09
An impressive time. Not great for Judea, by the sounds of it, but the Romans, well, they do like a good victory, and it sounds like they threw everything they had at this one.

Dr Rad 7:19
So we obviously get a bit of a snapshot about what Titus was up to in his early life through that account that you’ve just given. But what else do we know about Titus public career prior to his father becoming emperor?

Marc Hyden 7:33
So a lot of Titus early career and life is a bit of a mystery. And this kind of goes into how the ancient writers looked at people they didn’t generally, they didn’t care much about their their early life when they recorded it, because it was unimportant. Now for us historians, we want to know what happened. But what is clear is that Titus was born into the Flavian family, which had, at this point, had only recently become a senatorial clan. So because of this wealth and being a senatorial clan, Titus received rudimentary education that you’d expect of a well to do child, you know, and thanks to Vespasian growing increasingly close to Claudius court at the time, Titus was eventually even educated in the Imperial Court, which was really a blessing as well as a curse, because he learned alongside Claudius’ biological son, Britannicus. And this causes some some serious problems. Claudius’ scheming wife at the time, Agrippina was the mother of Nero, whom Claudius adopted. Now this is getting kind of convoluted and complex, but that’s the way the imperial family was. Agrippina didn’t seem to like the flavians too much, at least their friends that were in the imperial court. This caused plenty of grief. But then there was also the issue with Nero, who was distrustful of Britannicus, who, you know, rightfully, he probably should have been emperor, but he didn’t become emperor. So Nero decides to have him poisoned by tainting his drink. It turns out, though, that Titus was lounging next to Britannicus when this went down, and in fact, Titus even drank some of the poison. But Britannicus died, and as we all can tell, Titus survived, although he had a long term ailment that actually stemmed from him imbibing some of this poison. But despite him surviving Vespasian and Titus, at this point, they realize they’ve fallen from favor, and they needed to see to their own safety, so they decided to lay low for a while, and it worked in their favor, because not long after, they had some developments in the imperial court that really benefited them. So Nero really got tired of his his meddling and very overbearing mother, and he first banished her, and then he had her murdered, and this is after numerous botched attempts, and he’s finally successful, and with with her dead, both Vespasian and Titus, their futures looked a lot a lot brighter at this point in fact. Is able to enter the cursus honorum, the path of honors. And he took his first step toward senatorial admission by serving, most likely, in a one year term. And really, this, really lower level college of magistrates. And that’s this might have happened around 60 AD, and it was the next year in which he probably held the military tribuneship, and he was at first stationed in Germany, and then the ancient writers tell us that Titus and his troops were eventually transferred from Germany to Britannia. The ancient writers don’t tell us why this happened, but some modern historians have pinpointed a very plausible and what I find to be a pretty fascinating reason, and it was the Boudicca rebellion. Now, as a lot of your listeners know, Boudicca was this Iceni royal, and she was a woman not to be trifled with, but the Romans decided to trifle with her anyway. They stole her property. They publicly abused her and even raped her daughters these this was an unconscionable crime, and after facing this Roman treachery and ignominy, she decided to work to kick the Romans out of Britannia. And within a short span of time, she raises this massive army, allegedly numbering around 230,000 people, and she led them into battle. And this happens around 60 ad and with relative ease, she overruns numerous cities, raises them to the ground, and shows that she can be pretty barbaric as well. But the Romans were bent on stopping her, and in 61 the following year, the local governor Paulinus defeated her in battle. And then afterwards, Boudicca either dies by suicide or illness, we don’t really know, but the remnants of the revolt remained active, and that’s where Titus enters this story. So in an effort to shore up the Romans defenses in Britannia and provide reinforcements, Nero decided to transfer some folks from Germany to Britannia. So this is, this is when historians think it’s very likely that Titus found himself there, and he may have actually seen some legitimate experience and action in the Buddha revolt, although we don’t really know what exactly he could have been doing. So the Boudicca revolt is subdued, and then, following Titus term as military tribune, he returns to Rome to kind of foster his nascent public career, promote his private business interests, including a legal practice. And he seeks the quaestorship, which is the this will give you senatorial admission at the time. And with his father’s help, the Senate presumably elects him, providing him a seat in the Senate. And through some guesswork, educated guesswork. Historians think that his quaestorship may have fallen around 64 AD which is when the Great Fire of Rome happened. But it was two years later that really propels Titus to what we think of when we hear him in 66 that’s when the Jewish rebellion begins, and Nero realizes that he desperately needs some help. So he looks around to find someone who’s someone who’s a competent general, but not particularly inspiring so he could never really challenge them, and someone who’s close by that happens to be Vespasian. He’s not a very exciting guy at the time and not thought of as a real threat. So he appoints Vespasian to command the war effort against the Jewish people, and Vespasian in turn, appoints Titus to lead the 15th legion. And as I alluded to earlier, together they sweep through the Jewish homeland and they reassert Roman control, but at a really terrible cost.

Dr G 13:38
Yeah, it’s a quite a trajectory, and one that, because the Flavians are not such a prominent family, we just don’t know those intricate details about those shifts through their career paths. But by the time we get into Titus having ruled, boy, does he get some praise and Suetonius in his “Life of Titus”, notably says, and I quote, “Titus, of the same surname as his father, was the delight and darling of the human race. Such surpassing ability had he, by nature, art or good fortune, to win the affections of all men.” End, quote, To what extent should we see this level of positivity as justified when it comes to Titus rule? Do you think so?

Marc Hyden 14:29
That’s a little bit of a complicated question. So first things first, Suetonius is one of the least reliable historians of the era. He is really a terrible historian. Excuse me, he represents or presents rumors as verifiable fact. Essentially, he also presents his histories thematically, instead of chronologically, which really makes it difficult for historians to unravel what truly happened. But that aside, now that I’ve really just uh denigrated the memory of Suetonius, does that statement ring true? So I guess my my answer, my roundabout answer, that is, it depends on which Titus we’re talking about. So as a Roman commander in Judea, Titus was he was successful, but he was absolutely brutal, and he made so many tactical errors and perhaps he also strategic errors. As a Roman prince, he acted as a spoiled playboy and was really happy to ruthlessly murder just about anyone rumored of conspiring against his father. So these are not something you would think of as the darling of the human race, but he reinvents himself as a Roman Emperor. After he succeeded to the throne, he acted like a forgiving and loving father. He spared conspirators lives, He lavished gifts on on the Roman people, and he guided the empire through some really challenging circumstances. So from the Roman perspective, Titus was about as good as it gets as an emperor and his brutality as a commander, from the Roman perspective, was probably lauded, since the Romans found it to be necessary. So if Suetonius, if his statement is referring only to Titus emperorship, then from the Roman perspective, his positivity is probably merited, at least to a degree. But we all need to be very honest with each other, calling Titus the darling of the human race, is is beyond excessive, and it’s quite a bit ridiculous.

Dr G 16:27
Just what we come to expect from Suetonius, though.

Dr Rad 16:34
Someone who had a bit of a wild young life and then reinvented themselves as emperor… I wonder who that reminds me of Dr G?

Dr G 16:43
I wouldn’t want to hazard a guess.

Dr Rad 16:46
So one of the things that we love most about Titus is his love life, because he doesn’t actually have the smoothest of love lives. What do we know about his relationships with women?

Marc Hyden 16:57
Well, it was a long time before the dating app. So things, things weren’t very smooth when we look at what the ancient accounts say about it. So this is, this is a bit of a longer, longer answer, since he he got around a little bit. So in the early to mid 60s ad, that’s when Titus marries his first wife, Arrecina Tertulla. So the union between them, it really revealed a lot about the Flavian family standing and how they are an up and coming group. Because Titus wife, or Vespasian’s wife, didn’t really hail from a particularly exciting family, but Arrecina Tertulla really was from a family of some more notable successes, notable recent successes. Even though their family was a bit more obscure in their origins, they had achieved equestrian status, so they were pretty wealthy because of this. That probably pleased Vespasian quite a bit, since he seemed to perennially just have all these financial problems. And some of that happened probably as a result of Agrippina stiming his career for a while, so he really couldn’t milk money out of the provinces or anything along those lines. So that must have pleased Vespasian. But this is really a legitimately important family that they married into, because Arrecina’s father was Marcus Arrecinus Clemens, and he was well to do, very influential, and he even served as a Pretorian Prefect. So he was, and this was under Emperor Caligula, so this was a very prestigious position in which he was one of the two commanders of the Imperial Guard. But it also means that he may have had something to do with Caligula’s assassination, whether he was active in or just had knowledge of it, but whatever the case, no one liked Caligula afterwards. So it turns out, he’s probably more of a hero than anything else. But the family aside, so far as modern academics can tell, the two newlyweds, they wasted little time building a family, and arachina had a child, and this was likely a girl named Julia Flavia, although there is scholarly debate over which family or which marriage this belongs to this child, because there’s confusion of even how many children he had. But we, we know that Arrecina dies sometime shortly thereafter, and the ancient accounts don’t tell us why. And really, this is really more of this kind of male dominated view that I think a lot of ancient historians had, where they don’t tell you what happened to a lot of these, these female characters in history. But considering that it happened so soon after birth, she might have died as a result of childbirth, which is a very hazardous thing in antiquity. I mean, very conservative estimates suggest that the maternal mortality rate in ancient Rome might have been around two and a half percent. And again, that’s that’s conservative, but that’s also very terrifying. So this may have caused Titus to to grieve to a degree he lost his first wife, but he remarries really quickly. Um. It’s not clear if he did it because he found love or Vespasian wanted to find another rich family to marry into because he needed cash. But whatever the case, Titus marries into another pretty influential family, and he took Marcia Furnilla’s hand in marriage. Now she was part of a noble family that traced its roots to one of Rome’s fabled kings, Ancius Marcus, so one of the the fourth fabled king of ancient Rome. And even in this era, they enjoyed the family enjoyed quite a bit of success and considerable wealth, which Vespasian probably appreciated. But this marriage is very short lived for an undisclosed reason, the two get divorced fairly quickly. And the ancient authors, they don’t tell us why, but what seems to be the case is that some of her family members were accused of conspiring against Nero. This was a big problem. They could be terrible. Things happened to the people that were involved in these alleged conspiracies, and the Flavians wanted nothing to do with it. They wanted to continue their rise to the top, be successful, enjoy fame and fortune, and they probably wouldn’t have faced any legal problems just being married to having Titus married this woman, however, it could have stopped their careers from ascending. So Titus probably just thought of his wise we’re going to get divorced. I’m going to move on, even though she was likely innocent of any wrongdoing. So that’s the last Roman woman that we know for sure that Titus has this really close relationship with, and the next relationship that really dominates the rest of Titus life, she wasn’t even a Roman. So after joining with his father in the east to quell the Jewish revolt, Titus noticed the Jewish king Agrippa’s sister. This is the powerful queen, Berenice. So whether it was her beauty or charisma, he was quickly smitten with Berenice, and they begin this long standing romantic relationship that it spanned many, many years, and she probably welcomed this development because it brought their her family and her people as a result, closer to the Romans, but it also helped quell probably some rumors that went around suggesting that she had an incestual relationship with her brother since They lived together, something that was probably very unfair, but the the rumor existed, so she may have welcomed this. So this, this romance, probably lasts throughout the war, and then Titus goes home, but he goes home without Berenice, but in 75 CE roundabouts, he invites her to come. There’s plenty of debate. Why didn’t she come with him? Why did they wait this long? But to me, it seems pretty clear, the Flavians probably looked at her as a little bit of a liability, and they wanted to make sure that they had stable control over their position in Rome before they brought this eastern queen to come. And in relatively short order, she did arrive, and she moves into the Imperial Palace, shares a bed with Titus. She expected that they would get married, and in fact, Titus might have even promised his hand in marriage to her already, but they didn’t feel like they needed to be married for her to act in like these official ways. And this really shocked the Romans, because she flexed her newfound power. Quintilian even complained about having to plead some sort of case before her, which he just thought was bizarre. He’s a Roman. This is, this is an Eastern queen. And to the Romans, this was really unacceptable. They believed that the members the Imperial Household, especially heirs to the purple, they were expected to marry upstanding Roman women, not foreign Queens. And I’m sure this, this generated a lot of racist comments about letting an Eastern Queen infiltrate the imperial palace, and it also conjured up images of another very unpopular Eastern queen, Cleopatra. So the Romans were very suspicious about Berenice, and they spoke out against her. And it seems like the flavians tried to contain these objections, but it became clear that the Romans were very unforgiving of this, and Titus and Vespasian knew that they had to send her back to the east to ensure that they remained popular. So they sent her on her way. It probably around 79 AD, and then it was all it was very shortly after that that Vespasian dies and Titus becomes emperor, and for some reason, Berenice comes back to Rome. We don’t know if she was invited or came out of her own accord. Whatever we know is it was a very short stint – Titus sent her back to the east. I guessed, I guess the Romans were still very unhappy with that relationship. But whatever the case, this seems like it was. She was his true love, and that would be the last time he ever saw her.

Dr Rad 24:48
Ah the tragedy.

Dr G 24:51
Yes, particularly with the parallels with Cleopatra as well, the Romans are not well set up to handle women from elsewhere. Yeah, maybe having just the capacity to lead and to be in the high echelons of Roman society. So it’s perhaps not a surprise. And I do wonder about that last visit where it’s like, can we make this work? And Titus is like, I don’t think we can. And it’s not about you, it’s about everybody else. I’d love you to stay.

Dr Rad 25:19
It’s not you, it’s Rome.

Dr G 25:21
It’s Rome. Yeah, it’s always Rome. And you’ve alluded to the things that are going on in Judea already, because obviously they play a hugely significant role in the lead up to Titus coming into this position of leadership. But this conquest also has a lot of written sources attached to it as well. So I’m interested in why the conquest at this point is so significant, and how do our written sources help us build a detailed picture of what is going on in the east in this time period?

Marc Hyden 25:54
Well, I think you absolutely have to consider this is really part of not just Titus legacy is as well as Rome’s. This is very important. But when you look at the the sources that we have for this, really the only bulked out source that we have is Josephus. He his account is what has survived. You see mentions of the Jewish War in the different, different writings. You know, Cassius Dio, Suetonius. I mean, we have these passing accounts, but nothing like Josephus has. But we also need to be careful when we read Josephus, because the Flavians essentially bankrolled him. So of course, he’s going to make Titus look fantastic. He’s going to make Vespasian look great as well. And despite all of Josephus faults this, he provides so much knowledge and so much information about Titus in his corpus of writing. So I think it’s very important to bring that in, to consider that and when you if you just look at the the war very briefly, so it’s sparked through different riots and mistreatment of the Jews by the Romans, as well as the Greek speaking population, they rise up. And Josephus is even one of the generals for the rebellion. And he’s stationed in Galilee and fights against Vespasian. And there’s the this, this penultimate battle in Jotapata, where he tries to hold out for over 40 days around about and eventually falls and even predicts that Vespasian will become emperor one day, and they decide not to execute him. So that’s also a very good tale, a cautionary tale, if you ever captured in war, tell the person that captures you, he’s going to be emperor one day, and he’ll probably spare your life. So Titus is alongside Vespasian through this. And they go through all these these cities, and there’s these exciting battles that Josephus has really provide a wealth of knowledge about. So it’s Vespasian who really wins a lot of the Jewish war. And he goes to Alexandria later on to wait until he goes to Rome and leaves Titus in charge here. And this is when Titus has 60 to 80,000 men under his command, and he uses them primarily for the siege of Jerusalem, which is extended, as I mentioned. It’s very bloody. We have terrible accounts from Josephus of cannibalism, starvation, famine. You know, I mentioned that Josephus said that a million Jews died just in the siege. Again, that’s his accounting. It’s probably an exaggeration. According to Tacitus, it’s no more than 600,000, but even if it’s 100,000 which is what some modern academics suggest, that is a massive number. So even though a lot of the other writers, Cassius, Dio, Suetonius, Tacitus, they kind of sidestep a lot of the Jewish War. Josephus gives us an amazing account and shows how important this is, not just to stabilizing the Roman Empire, but turning Vespasian and Titus into what they are. They’re able to use this to propel themselves to take over, because during the year of the four emperors, Vespasian is sitting there with all these legionaries at his disposal, and he’s able to use that to come in and take over. And meanwhile, Vespasian does that, and then Titus plays clean up sacks Jerusalem, which is critically important, and he also destroys the Temple. But I think one of the things that really is is probably overlooked by many, is what Titus did in Jerusalem helps lay the groundwork for unrest in the Middle East that persists to this day.

Dr Rad 29:37
It’s such a such an interesting time to be talking about right now. So when Vespasian eventually heads back to Rome during this troublesome time, he does so after having been proclaimed Imperator by his troops and his son, Titus is, of course, at his side. Now this is a really unusual time in Rome’s history, because it’s the first time that. That an imperial dynasty has ended and a new one is now coming in, although, of course, nobody knows that that’s definitely what’s going to happen at this point. But we’re curious to know how, how is Titus training to be emperor different from and similar to that of the Julio-Claudians who preceded him?

Marc Hyden 30:18
Yeah. So unlike a lot of the other Imperial successors Titus, he wasn’t originally groomed for this purpose. He had no inkling that he would ever be in this position, and that he had no reason to believe that he ever would be. He simply wanted to be a senator, like his father, be a lawyer and somehow find wealth, fame and success. Maybe it’s in the political realm. Maybe it’s in the military. So as I mentioned, he got this aristocratic education, climbed the political ladder, fought in the legions, but as we know, he was destined for a lot more. So once Vespasian rose to power, he very unmistakably, from the beginning, marked Titus out as a successor in some similar as well as different ways than his forebears. So Vespasian worked to ensure that Titus had a resume that of someone that you would want to be emperor, and the power to be able to seize it. So he shared consulships with Vespasian. Titus and Vespasian shared consulships. They shared a triumph together through Rome after the sacking of Jerusalem, and Vespasian ensured that Titus had the notable military successes, namely the sacking of Jerusalem to really put on his resume and build out his curriculum vitae. But beyond this, Vespasian elevates Titus to almost his equal, at least on paper. So they kind of rule together, but it was very clear that Titus was a subordinate. But as a prince, he enjoyed Imperium, he enjoyed tribunician potestas. He represented Vespasian in the Senate sometimes. And then Vespasian also makes this very novel decision to make his son one of the Praetorian Guard prefects, essentially the head of a couple legions that are stationed in and around Rome who were asked to protect the Emperor. Now, no Emperor’s son had ever held this role before, but it ensured the allegiance of the sometimes fickle Praetorians. So because of all of this, there was nobody more qualified and better position to succeed Vespasian than Titus, any of the backing of the pretorians to ensure that seamless transition. So thanks to Titus work and Vespasian’s preparations, Titus became the first biological son of a Roman emperor to succeed him.

Dr G 32:37
Oh yeah, that is an interesting detail, isn’t it, the Julio-Claudians, what a mess. So one of the incredible things that sort of happens in this period of time is that we have the Lex de Imperio Vespasiani, which is considered by scholars to be a hugely significant document. It bundles together for the first time, all of the powers, all of the privileges that had gradually become associated with the concept of the Emperor under the Julio-Claudians and because it was assumed kind of knowledge up until this point. But we now have a change in family. There’s a sense in which, how can we formalize and make it legal for this kind of de facto position of power to be passed on to somebody who’s not in that family. I’m interested in to what extent you would say that this influences Titus as he shifts from being vespasians, right hand man to Emperor himself.

Marc Hyden 33:37
Yeah, that’s that’s a bit of a tough one. So the Lex de Imperio Vespasiani has long been debated by people far smarter than than me, so like you two, far smarter than me, and it only exists in fragmentary form, so some of it’s missing, but what I will say is that this was an important piece of Flavian PR because it really it legitimizes Vespasian’s rule, it makes it clear, or at least tries to make it clear to his subjects that he wasn’t just another usurper, like like Otho or Vitellius. He was legitimate. He was different than those guys. But how did this influence Titus? That’s that’s not really clear, but I will say sure it provided a framework for him to follow as emperor, but he enjoyed a lot of that same power before he became emperor. So when he was Vespasian’s companion, but he, like the rest of Rome, they now saw Rome for what it was. It was a military dictatorship. The year of the four emperors washed away any sort of veneer of Rome being a republic or being even a constitutional principate. The truth was that armies now made emperors, not the Senate, not the people and anyone could really stake their claim to the throne and could seize it without senatorial approval or without approval even in the comitia. But it was still, despite that, it was still important to maintain the pretenses of legitimate rule and Republican forms, even though the Republic had been long, long dead. So from that perspective, it was important for Titus, and considering that at large, he gave emperors unfettered power, he probably felt like it was pretty easy to operate under those confines, but he understood that he could violate any provision he wanted, because he was an autocrat and the head and he had the Army’s backing, and that was the sad reality of Rome at this time.

Dr G 35:35
What a place to be – you’ve revealed yourself for what you are, finally

Dr Rad 35:40
The veil has been lifted

Dr G 35:42
None of this principate business

Dr Rad 35:44
I know. I know So with all this build up and it seems so promising. You know, Titus, the darling of the human race, he seems to have got his resume just right, first biological son to succeed his father as emperor, and yet he only rules for such a short time, just over two years, from 79 CE, when Vespasian passed away, to 81 CE, nonetheless, that’s still some time for him to have some achievements and certainly face some obstacles. So we’d love for you to tell us a bit more about what happens when he’s actually emperor.

Marc Hyden 36:23
Yeah, so Titus may have presided over the busiest two year span in the Empire’s history, at least up until this point, Agricola was at war in Britannia. Vesuvius erupted and laid waste in numerous cities, including Pompeii and Herculaneum. Fire ravages Rome and a plague decimates its numbers. But despite this, Titus did everything within his power and also his financial means to guide the empire through adversity, even though it supposedly led him nearly to fiscal ruin because of it, but the people just they realized the world was a different place. They were facing all of these calamities, but they appreciated Titus endeavors, because he responded to each crisis with great aplomb, or at least with the best of intentions, and they understood this. But his tenure, it was not just marked by adversity. There were tranquil moments as well. He constructed his eponymus baths. Built roads and bridges and updated aqueducts, and he finished the Colosseum, which we could all go look at today, at least well enough for the inaugural games. It probably didn’t have the final floor finished at the time, at least in stone. And he opened it, and he hosts an unprecedented 100 days of games, and they bear witness to 1000s of beasts being killed, myriad executions, and an untold number of gladiators sparring with another which the people loved. And during his tenure, he also saw that his father was deified. So you know, that’s also another great thing. If you become emperor, you can make your dad a god, which makes you the son of a god or a daughter of a god, really work. It’s a great system that they had in place there. And even though a lot of his predecessors would not have done this, he showed forgiveness to people that plotted against him in ways that they they never would have dreamed of doing so. In short, this was a very action packed two years.

Dr G 38:21
I do like the idea that many emperors start off with quite a good stint early on, only for things to go tragically downhill the further they’re in power. And I wonder to what extent Titus has been saved from that fate by dying so soon into his reign, and we will just never know he dies suddenly from a fever, which a tragedy. This is shocking to everybody, and led to great speculation, even at the time, that this was not the case of poor health, necessarily, but murder most foul

Dr Rad 38:56
Mwahahahaha

Dr G 38:59
Exactly. I’m wondering, Mark, what’s your view on Titus death based on your research?

Marc Hyden 39:05
Well, first of all, to go back to what you were talking about, about emperors having a great, you know, honeymoon period, and that’s, that’s something that they talked about. Believe it was Cassius Dio said, you know, he just didn’t live. He may not have lived long enough to become the terrible Emperor he was destined to be. We just don’t know. He might have turned into Domitian. Who knows? But to answer your question about his death, it goes back to 81 AD, so a little over two years into his Imperial administration, he and some of his followers decided to go to the countryside for a break. They wanted to get out of the busy Rome, the stench and everything else that comes with it. But as they made their journey, Titus realizes something is really wrong. He develops this incredibly high fever, and then his servants, they rush him to a farmhouse in Sabine country, near near react, and along the way, Titus’ condition continues to get worse, and he understands that this is going to claim his life, and this really confused him. So he was 41 years old, which I may humbly present as a very young age.

Dr Rad 40:12
I totally agree.

Marc Hyden 40:14
He believed that he had lived a life pleasing to the gods, and he was at the height of his power. Why would the gods take his life at this moment. So on the verge of death, he he throws open the curtains on his litter and exclaims, I have made but one mistake. Now we don’t know what that one mistake was, but we do know that he dies not long after on September 13, 81 AD in the very farmhouse in which his father Vespasian had perished. So the question of what killed him, what was the cause of death, has really vexed ancient and even some modern historians and the ancient authors, they provided kind of a slew of theories to attempt to explain what killed him, and they range from impossible to improbable. But thanks to the diligence of some modern scholars, we may have the answer, but first we have to talk about what the ancient authors thought. So, given the rapid and very unexpected death of a pretty popular emperor, the Romans grew suspicious that Titus had been slain, and some claimed that Domitian was behind it. One theory suggested that Titus, or excuse me, Domitian, had Titus packed in ice when he was sick, knowing that that would kill him. So it’s not impossible that Domitian had this done, and he may have done it along with doctor’s orders as a way to reduce Titus uncontrolled fever. But other ancient authors said that Titus died through other means. Domitian poisoned them, so more Imperial intrigue. And Flavius Philostratus even says that Domitian used a sea hair to taint Titus food or drink somehow, which which killed him. But modern academics, they’ve kind of poo-pooed that idea. They don’t believe that that would really have worked. And this also kind of reveals what the ancient writers thought about Domitian. They did not like the guy, they loathed him, and he was an easy target, at least at this point. So they latched on to all these unsubstantiated rumors saying that Domitian was somehow behind Titus death. And, you know, he did have a motive, because he became emperor, it just seems very unlikely that he had anything to do with with killing his brother, at least on purpose. Then there’s a Jewish tradition, and this is one of my favorite ones, and it suggests that a gnat flew up Titus nose, lived in his brain for seven years and slowly picked at his brain as it grew to the size of a sparrow. This is a tradition that obviously is, I don’t believe that anyone thinks of it as fact, it might be part of some sort of tale. Gnats don’t operate this way. They don’t grow to the size of small birds, at least where I live. And the Romans generally didn’t do autopsies and open up Emperor’s brains to see what’s going on in there. So this didn’t that was not the cause. Could not have been.

Dr G 43:09
That’s a real shame. That’s a real shame because, I mean, come on, if that was, that was what happened. We need to know. We need to go back and find the body, do an autopsy. Was he somehow trapped by a gnat while he was in Judea that lived in his brain.

Marc Hyden 43:24
If that is possible, I’m never going outside again. But Plutarch, he went in a different direction, said that Titus died because he loved taking a bath too much. And I also think that that’s probably not the case, unless he caught some sort of contagion while bathing with with other people. But what really seems to be the case is relatively clear in the ancient record, if you look through it through a modern lens. So if we go back, it’s September in ancient Italy, and Titus acquires a high fever that strikes him down quickly. So we’ve got several things to look at here. And Saul bastomsky theorized, based on that that Titus died from malignant malaria. It was relatively common in Titus era and region at the time. It surged in late summer and early fall, and it’s marked by a high fever that kills its victims really quickly. So it seems that was probably natural causes that led to his death. And if it was malignant malaria, then sadly, Titus, he just never stood a chance.

Dr Rad 44:29
How intriguing the potential of an emperor to have died from the Ice Bucket Challenge? Who would have thought so? Perhaps, to wrap up now that Titus has departed from this earth. What is it that you think makes Titus unique from the Emperors that came before him?

Marc Hyden 44:50
Well, he was just so different from the Julio-Claudians. For starters, he was a true warrior. He led troops. He got into the nitty gritty of battle. Unlike the Julio-Claudians, with the exception of Augustus and Tiberius, they saw some some real battle. But for the rest of the pampered Julio-Claudians, Titus was very different. He was also the first, as I mentioned, Pretorian Prefect to become emperor, and the first biological son of an emperor to become emperor. Again, very different from the Julio-Claudians, and during his short stint, he proved to be a forgiving and magnanimous ruler who eschewed killing even conspirators, and so far as we can tell, he didn’t have a single scandal throughout all of his Imperial tender tenure. Again, it was only a couple of years, but still, no scandals. Most Julio-Claudians couldn’t have said the same about about their own.

Dr Rad 45:43
Oh, yeah, Caligula had scandals pretty quickly.

Marc Hyden 45:47
Yes, they would. They stacked up very quickly. You’re right. He also gave the Romans a gift that his predecessors would have killed for the Colosseum, and he gave the Romans 100 days of games and killing, just on an industrial scale, and they loved him for it. And he was also different. This is a little less interesting, but he was different because he had the shortest Imperial tenure to date, excluding the usurpers of the year, the four emperors, of any of his predecessors. And unlike many of his predecessors, when he died, he was probably at the height of his popularity, the Romans loved him. Remember, he’s he’s the darling of the human race, although, of course, that’s exaggeration. So to close out neatly, I would say the life of Titus is one of the greatest stories rarely told. So it’s the tale of Titus unlikely ascent to power, a veritable holy war in Israel, the coliseums rise, and of course, we know Pompeii’s fall and then tragic Titus own tragic and untimely death. But for whatever reason, a lot of the story has been buried beneath centuries of silence. And you know, a lot of the ancient Romans loved and even worshiped Titus. They considered him this model of virtue, essentially as an emperor to be emulated. But modern scholars, they have overlooked him for whatever reason. They’ve cast him aside, perhaps because of his short Imperial tenure, and this has left some unmistakable gaps in the record. So I decided to take on this project and write emperor Titus the right hand of Vespasian. And hopefully, hopefully it will end his long term neglect, and we won’t have to worry about the massive gaps in the record that have been there for so long.

Dr G 47:35
Yes, thank you so much for providing all of this detail, and I cannot recommend your book, highly enough, that’s “Emperor Titus: The Right Hand of Vespasian”, because you do go into so much of the detail, particularly with what is going on in the early days of Titus building his military reputation, particularly when it comes to what is happening in Judea, which is an extensive campaign that really funds a lot of what The Flavians are able to achieve. So I think understanding that side of it better. How did this seemingly unassuming family rise to the top is really important, and seeing how Titus is able to carry on that legacy of Vespasian particularly interesting as well.

Marc Hyden 48:18
Yeah, and I really appreciate that the kind words. And it really is something I find to be pretty amazing. Everyone has heard of Vespasian, who’s interested in ancient Rome, and even his ascent is is very unlikely. And he brings he brings his family along, and as people will find out that are students of history, they’ll see the Flavian dynasty. It starts off very stable, but it goes off the rails pretty quickly. But they want to say that, you know, Vespasian and Titus, they had a good run.

Dr G 48:48
Yeah, two out of three ain’t bad.

Dr Rad 48:50
I was gonna say. I can’t help but wonder if Titus reputation is also somewhat improved by the fact that Domitian is the one that follows.

Marc Hyden 48:59
That certainly does help his standing. It also helps his standing, as well as Vespasian that a lot of the people at the time, the historians at the time, that wrote the history, they tended to bankroll so you tend to say nice things about your benefactor. So they they benefited greatly from some fantastic PR and that’s that’s another thing. If you’re going to be emperor, pay people to write your history. They’ll say nice things.

Dr Rad 49:25
That’s the mistake that Julia-Claudians made. Rookie errors. Rookie errors.

Dr G 49:34
Well, thank you so much Mark for joining us and sitting down to tell us all about Titus and the way he comes to power, and those precious two years he gets to be emperor, we’ve really enjoyed it.

Marc Hyden 49:44
Hey. Thanks so much for having me on and I’ll just have to burn through another book real quick so I can come back.

Dr G 49:56
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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