The Partial Historians

Welcome to another cheeky preview from our new book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire.

This chapter is a bit of a contrast to our first one on Spartacus. We turn from a rebel from the lowest ranks of society to one from the elite. We are journeying from the Roman Republic to the mid-Empire. Aaaaand we are travelling from Italy to the provinces.

For our next instalment, we tell you the tale of Queen Zenobia of Palmyra. Cleopatra reborn!

With a Rebel Yell – Zenobia’s Winning Strategy

Queen Zenobia addressing her soldiers by Giovanni Battista Tiepolo, courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

We hope that you enjoy it and would love to hear your thoughts.

If you haven’t pre-ordered a copy yet and you like the sound of it,  the details for the book can be found on our website.

Music by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The post Another Cheeky Preview – With a Rebel Yell – Zenobia’s Winning Strategy appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The fifth century BCE in Rome is the century that saw the idea of the republic flourish and falter only to flourish again. The plebeians rose up to fight for their rights and to enjoy the fruits of their hard work on the battlefield. The patricians held on to their prestige and power with a vice-like grip and Rome began to expand their influence in the local region. At least that’s what our ancient sources believed!

Let’s review the 5th century BCE together. We’ll focus on the big themes, the ideas that were central to the century, and what was going on in the Struggle of the Orders. 

Episode 154 – The Fifth Century BCE in Review

It seems only fair to start with the year 509 BCE (so technically the end of the 6th century!) because that’s the year that the Romans finally booted out the kings and decided there had to be a better way to run the place. If you’re keen to go through the 5th century in ALL THE DETAIL, you’ll need to go back to our Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period that we recorded all the way back in 2015! Our detailed coverage of the 5th century BCE runs from Episode 45 all the way through to Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push Into Power. That’s 108 episodes on the 5th century BCE!

We’ll be taking a bird’s eye look at the century that was with a focus on some key themes and developments. Tune in for a consideration of:

So after a turbulent first 100 years of the Roman Republic, what can we say for sure?

What will the 4th century BCE bring for the development of Rome? Stay tuned to find out!  

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds.

Léon Bénouville (1844) Cincinnatus.
The senators happen upon Cincinnatus while is he is busy farming sans shirt.

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians I am, Dr G, and I’m joined by my long-going and fabulous co host:

Dr Rad 1:07
Dr Rad. How you doing, Dr G?

Dr G 1:10
I’m doing fabulously well. It’s always a good day when I get to sit down with you.

Dr Rad 1:14
I know, now look, you and I, we usually sit here and we hash out the narrative that is the history of Rome from the founding of the city. We look at different sources, we compare accounts. And to be honest, I think one thing that we are not particularly good on is like anniversaries and special episodes that sort of thing. We never really pay attention to how many episodes we pump out. And we don’t really do episodes to celebrate how many years we’ve been doing this, but we felt that we had to pause and celebrate today. Slow going as our narrative is,

Dr G 1:51
I think you mean thorough and detailed as our narrative is.

Dr Rad 1:54
It is, it is. Thorough and detailed. So today is a special episode, because the last time we spoke, we hit a century.

Dr G 2:05
Yeah, we’re about to tip into a whole new world in terms of the numbers. Whether that means anything for the Romans is anybody’s guess, but it certainly means something for us. So we’re about to switch away from the fifth century BCE, and we thought to ourselves, let’s just take a moment take stock of the situation. How far has Rome come in its first century as a republic?

Dr Rad 2:36
Exactly. So today is the most gigantic partial recap. If that even makes sense that we’ve ever done.

Dr G 2:44
I’m not even willing to call it a recap. It’s going to be bigger than that.

Dr Rad 2:49
Yeah, yeah, as we look at the fifth century.

Dr G 2:54
Yeah, so we started talking about the Roman Republic, which officially started in 509, ish, so just at the very end of the sixth century, and that was in Episode 45 which was called ‘The Last Gasp of the Regal Period’. And it was so long ago that it was in 2015.

Dr Rad 3:17
Jesus Christ.

Dr G 3:22
Are we going as slow as the Romans?

Dr Rad 3:25
We’re living it in real time, history unfolding before your very eyes.

Dr G 3:30
A little bit of history repeating…

Dr Rad 3:32
Exactly.

Dr G 3:33
And it has taken us 108 episodes to get from that point in time to the end of the fifth century BCE, which legitimately means that we’ve got an episode for just about every year that the Republic has been in existence so far.

Dr Rad 3:53
I was going to say that sounds astronomical, but when you think about it, should we be surprised? I mean, we do basically cover a year an episode. That’s kind of our thing.

Dr G 4:02
Well, that’s true and but sometimes we cover two years because there’s not much going on, and then sometimes so much is going on that we need to devote more than one episode to a single year. So this is, I think it’s a nice sort of like marry up a parallel at this point, to be in a situation where we’ve got as many episodes as they’ve been years basically, yeah, I think the fifth century BCE, the evidence has been pretty thin on the ground, really.

Dr Rad 4:35
And yet, somehow we fleshed it out into almost 10 years worth of podcasting.

Dr G 4:39
Incredible, incredible stuff. I think, yeah, it’s a high five for us. I’ll put in a sound effect there.

Dr Rad 4:45
Oh, definitely, yeah. So look, I have to say this as well. I think is something we needed to do because of the very nature of podcasting, particularly the way that you and I do it, whereas you say we do delve into the details, because when you’re doing a podcasting. Show the big difference between doing this and, say, writing a book on the fifth century BCE is that if you were writing a book, you would obviously sit down, you would research the whole period at once. It might take you a few years to actually come to grips with all the material, do all your research, pull it together into the structure that you want, and then you write it, and then it’s reviewed, etc, etc, right? Whereas with podcasting, it is quite different, because we are, we are looking very much at it unfolding in sort of real time, in that we’re not reading ahead that far, if, if at all. Sometimes we are just looking at the year that that was, and we are, we are definitely doing our research into interesting things that pop up as we look at the accounts, but we’re certainly not looking ahead. I think that’s kind of actually the nice part of it. We’re kind of as surprised as the Romans in that we’re like, oh, wow, that happened. Wasn’t expecting that. So that’s why, I think looking back now and trying to take it all in what we’ve covered over the last almost 10 years is kind of important, because now we can kind of look back and say, right, well, now we know everything that happened. What do we think of this century?

Dr G 6:10
Yeah, now that we’ve we’ve done every year conceivable that we could across this whole period of time, what can we take away from it? So this episode is more going to be like a discussion of some of the really big themes and events that occurred throughout this century, and just a sense of like, where we think things are at with Rome now that we’ve gotten to the end of this period and we’re about to tip into a whole new century. So if people come to this podcast in many years hence, and they’re like, I don’t know where to start with the fifth century. Come to this episode first before you go right back and listen to all of the others.

Dr Rad 6:50
You can, rebel, you. Rebel listeners, you can listen out of order. My God.

Dr G 6:56
The horror.

Dr Rad 6:57
The horror. I have to say, I actually enjoyed this century a lot more than I thought I would. And that’s another reason why I think it’s actually important to talk about it, because it it is a bit of a forgotten century. I feel, you know, people talk about skipped over, yes, yeah. People talk about that very, very early stuff where the Republic is founded, which is obviously so key, because people care so much about the Roman Republic, people like to talk about it a lot, but then I feel like people just zoom straight ahead to like the Punic Wars, or maybe the Samnite wars, or even, dare I say it, the fall of Veii. Spoilers!

Dr G 7:37
Which still has not happened yet for us.

Dr Rad 7:39
I know, I know, but they don’t pay attention to the stuff that happens. And actually, I’m like, wow, this actually tells us so much about the way, the way that the Romans wrote their history, the way that they conceptualize themselves. I actually see this as being kind of foundational. Now I’m so glad that we did actually go through year by year.

Dr G 7:58
Yeah, and I think there is a real pleasure in the slow reading of material that we’ve engaged in as well. So this is something that as a working historian, you sometimes don’t get the luxury of doing just sitting with a text for a really long period of time and going through it really slowly. You want to be able to do that, but often what you’re called to do in the profession is to dig into things quite quickly, come to grips with stuff really fast, and then find the key pieces that will really help you say the things that you’re hoping to bring together to search for the hypothesis. And that really slow, close reading, and close rereading, is kind of fundamental to the pleasure of doing history, but it is also something that sometimes you don’t get to do quite as much as you’d like to, like you might be prepping to teach, or you might be trying to finish off an article, and all those sorts of things are pressured deadlines, which means that slow reading engagement is something that you might have to build into your spare time, and we’ve been really fortunate to be able to do that within the context of producing a podcast together.

Dr Rad 9:09
Completely agree, I tend to dip in an out of source material, if I’m writing an article or writing a book, and just finding the stuff that I absolutely have to read because there is a deadline looming, and I need to get through things as quickly as possible. So yeah, I think this is something that is unusual, and yet should be such a key part of what it is that historians do. Yeah, slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. All right. Dr, G, so you have very kindly put together a highlights reel for us here, which we’re going to explore. So why don’t you tell me what stood out to you, looking back on the fifth century BC as a defining theme.

Dr G 9:48
I think one of the first things that I think is worthy of mention is that we have the introduction of the role of dictator. So this is something that fundamentally you can. Not have under a monarchy, it doesn’t really work like that. The king’s in charge. The king does all the things. They’re both the spiritual leader and the military leader and the judicial person. Those functions really get split up and broken away and sort of hived off in different directions. As we head into the republic, people see the monarch as somebody who has way too much of various powers, and that needs to be dealt with. Having said that, though the early republic of Rome is a messy place, and they’re trying to do something new with their government, and they’re not really sure quite if it’s working or not, and sometimes they do get themselves into a bit of a spot of bother. Sometimes that relates to their relationship with the gods, sometimes that relates to the military, sometimes that relates to judicial matters. And in times of real need, all of a sudden they’re like, well, might be good to have one person really in charge and just in charge for a small amount of time. And this is where the idea of the dictator sort of comes into play. They’ve got various roles that they can fulfill, but the idea is that they definitely have to step down. It is a temporary position, and they must step down once they’ve fulfilled their mandate. So I think this is fundamental to the nature of the fifth century BCE, because Rome sort of harks back to the kings without necessarily returning to the kings at times.

Dr Rad 11:33
Absolutely, I agree. I think that if you were to open a popular history of Rome. And there was anything on this period which a would shock me, but let’s pretend that this is happening. It would very much tell you that in 509 BCE, the last king of Rome was expelled. The Romans vowed never to have kings again, and they introduced this new system, which was structured like this. One thing that you and I have really seen, whilst going into the details of this, is how much of a lie that is.

Dr G 12:07
Can you imagine having a whole group of people just being like, we’re not doing it that way anymore, and then having completely smooth transition into a unknown, completely new, shiny system that they’ve made up on the spot, basically, and it not having any issues whatsoever. It’s just unrealistic.

Dr Rad 12:28
Exactly. I mean, to be honest, I don’t know why that actually even surprises us. Anybody who’s been through a restructure of any company or institution that you work at. We all know it takes years, years to figure that kind of stuff out. It takes all sorts of HR management. It takes people having tantrums. It takes clashes, it takes complaints. It is a complicated process, and that is in the modern age. I don’t know why we’d think that the ancient world would be so much more seamless.

Dr G 13:00
It’s certainly not seamless, and it doesn’t take them very long to sort of hit a snag in this new republic of theirs.

Dr Rad 13:08
No, no, it doesn’t at all.

Dr G 13:09
The first traditional dictator is a guy called Titus Larcius Flavus, and he’s brought in in 498, BCE, so the Republic isn’t even a decade old, no, so it’s an issue. They’re like, uh oh, we need somebody, and his job, basically, is to deal with the lingering supporters for the last king, Tarquinius Superbus, that man who doesn’t want to die, doesn’t want to go away, would still like to be king, really? Oh, yeah, and he does have factional support, so it’s a bit like, look, any politician that you really don’t like that just keeps returning and keeps trying to get themselves back into power. Tarquinius Superbus is your man.

I’m sure I don’t know what you mean. Dr, G.

I’m not name dropping. I’m not going to date this podcast.

Dr Rad 14:05
Yeah, it’s 2024, where would we be seeing that kind of thing happening?

Dr G 14:10
No idea. So they call up this Titus Larcius Flavus to deal with this situation. And in addition to that, there seems to be some broad issues with the Sabines, which are Rome’s neighbors to the east, up in the hills. So there’s unrest politically. You know, we’ve got some monarchical elements still at play. We’ve got the neighbors of Rome causing a bit of an issue. And so he gets out his lictors. He gets to have a lot of lictors. They get to have their fasces with the axes, which makes everybody a little bit perturbed. And Bob’s your uncle. We’ve got our first dictator.

Dr Rad 14:53
I know. And I kind of love the idea that, however, this system came together, the Romans eventually, basically. Had a built in band aid for their world, literally, a band aid solution.

Dr G 15:08
Having a terrible time? Not sure what to do now? Quick, appoint somebody dictator! So there had to be an agreement about who the dictator would be. That was pretty important. And there is an outlying, even earlier contender to be the first dictator. Scholars tend to not be sure about this one, though, so he doesn’t usually get the name this guy, Manlius Valerius Volsesi, was apparently a player in 501 BCE, but the sauces are pretty thin on the ground, so that one’s usually dismissed. But then we have, like, some really stand out figures and the most famous dictator, and shout out to our fans in Cincinnati. This guy takes the cake in the fifth century, we have Cincinnatus as dictator, and he holds the role twice, which is phenomenal stuff.

Dr Rad 16:09
Yeah, and that’s on top of his other positions that he holds, not to mention his family’s general domination of politics in the latter half of the fifth century BCE.

Dr G 16:21
Yeah, they’re a pretty phenomenal family, and he does not want to be dictator, for sure, he’s busy, if I recall rightly, farming without his shirt on. When they come and find him.

Dr Rad 16:33
Who could forget that scene?

Dr G 16:36
I’d never forget a scene like that. And he was so good at the job and resolving the crisis at that point in time that about 30 years later, or maybe 20 years later, they called him up to be dictator again, by which time, he was a crotchety old man and even more grumpy than he was the first time. And he’s like, are you sure you don’t want to pick a younger man for this? He must have been in his 70s or 80s by that time, and he very reluctantly became dictator again.

Dr Rad 17:09
But this is, I love Cincinnatus as something to talk about, because, as we’ve said before, but bears repeating now, because the fifth century BC is a little murky with source material. I think it’s very much still one of those periods that the sources that we’re mostly consulting, that were written later are looking back to for exemplars, and Cincinnatus, I’m sure probably did historically exist, that’s not to say that he is a myth. However, I do think that his life the way that he conducts himself, it does become an exemplar that later Romans will reach back to as their perfect man, someone who’s rural, rustic, embraces those traditional values of hard work and discipline and does not want to hold on to power. Because, as we’ve said many a time, this is the ultimate man. The dream man for the Romans is someone who is really good at exercising power but doesn’t actually want it.

Dr G 18:11
Oh yeah, you can, you can almost feel Cato the Elder loving this guy from a couple of centuries hence. That sense of being tied to the land is a very fundamental concept of the early, mid and even late republic, the idea that a true Roman is centered in the farm, somehow, in that rustic landscape, not in the urban environment where the politics is happening and yeah, Cincinnatus is ticking all of those reluctant leader boxes.

Dr Rad 18:46
Absolutely. Um, do you mind if I get political for a moment? So I know that, I know this is going to put a timestamp on this episode, which is not ideal, but I can never resist it whilst, whilst, obviously, it’s not exactly the same. I do think that there is also still something about maybe certain people these days where we are a little suspicious of anyone who’s too keen to hold power, even in our own time. And whilst I certainly would not say that I approve or agree with everything Joe Biden did as President of the United States of America, there is something to be said for somebody who, okay, admittedly, after a lot of pressure, did at least step down when it was clear that him being in that position was no good for anyone anymore. It is not a perfect scenario in that there certainly had to be a gigantic amount of pressure put on him before he took that step. So I’m certainly not holding him up as a paragon of virtue in that respect, but there is something to be said for somebody who does at least eventually read the room and realize that it’s time to go.

Dr G 19:58
Wow.

Dr Rad 19:59
Yeah, which is not something that can be said for everyone.

Dr G 20:04
That is true, and we’ll get to a couple of examples of people who do not know how to read the room in the fifth century BCE in this episode, for sure.

Dr Rad 20:14
Anyway, all right, so the next thing is something that we have spent many hours of our lives talking about. So how could anyone forget? Not going to surprise our listeners here, but the Struggle of the Orders, Dr G.

Dr G 20:26
And boy, is it a struggle. It just keeps on happening.

Dr Rad 20:30
It definitely does. So certainly, the fifth century BCE is the time where we see the kickoff, something that will actually last for a couple of 100 of years, which is the patricians and the pabeans, these apparent classes that exist in ancient Rome and are consistently at loggerheads with each other. And it flares up and it dies down periodically. It depends what’s happening, but it’s always there lurking around the corner. I don’t think we could probably go more than – ooh, I’m gonna say one or two years, really – without some mention of something happening between the patricians and the plebeians.

Dr G 21:11
Yes. And I think the major issue that we’ve returned to many times and bears repeating is that the historicity of this conflict is really open to question. Who are the patricians? Who are the plebeians? It’s not at all clear we don’t have enough good, solid, independent evidence outside of our written source material that was produced much later to give us some insight into what is going on here. So it does make it really hard to know whether we’re on firm ground with this. The idea that there would be social and political tensions in any state, particularly as it’s starting to grow and expand, and particularly since they’ve just changed their system of government seems a reasonable assumption, and what shape that really took is kind of anybody’s guess at that point. But this Struggle of the Orders, is it flares up in a number of ways across this century, and we’ll get into more detail on that. It’s a big deal, and it seems to be positioned very much in our source material as the elite faction within the social structure of Rome is very much trying to push its own agenda. And obviously they have the power and the platform to do that, and this leaves the people who are locked outside of that pretty frustrated a lot of the time.

Dr Rad 22:43
Yeah, I think that’s exactly it. I think that’s why it’s been so appealing, actually, to look at it, particularly with the world scenarios that we face these days, the idea of powerful people managing to establish such a domination on the institutions that control everyone’s lives and the frustration that comes with that, I think we can very much sympathize with that. I think that’s been very clear in the way that we’ve talked about it.

Dr G 23:14
Yes, yes,

Dr Rad 23:16
Yeah, it’s not that we don’t know how things work, which sometimes seems to be the case in the conflict of the orders, like it sometimes seems like there is some sort of knowledge or oral tradition or training or something that is at stake here, where only certain people maybe are familiarized with that or know it really well, and that that may be part of the frustration. But even once that issue is somewhat resolved, it definitely is this frustration of like a lack of representation, a lack of access to certain parts of the state. So whilst we might not necessarily feel confident in who the patricians are, who the plebeians are, we certainly wouldn’t want to suggest that there isn’t some sort of power struggle happening in ancient Rome in the fifth century BCE. It might just be that the way that our later sources choose to explain it, it maybe reflects a little bit more of events closer to their own time than what was actually happening. And that’s why it seems a bit dubious. But certainly they’re probably very aware that there was some sort of power struggle going on within Rome, within certain factions. We just can’t be certain who made up those factions, and sometimes it feels like that story is being projected onto maybe a fairly bare bones account. And so they’re like, I can’t quite make sense of this. I know it must have something to do with the Struggle of the Orders!

Dr G 24:35
Guess what, guys? It’s the struggle and fair enough. And this leads us into a couple of really big ticket events that take place in the fifth century, which is the first and the second plebeian secession,

Dr Rad 24:49
Ah, yes.

Dr G 24:49
where, this idea that the have nots get so completely frustrated with their inability to be able to. To produce something in this new republic that actually helps them, supports them in their difficult lives, that they decide it’s easier to up sticks and go somewhere else and leave all of those elite, Fancy Pants patrician people to rule over each other in without the plebeians having to be involved. And it doesn’t seem to take very long. So we talk about the way that we have the first dictator in about 498 and then only four years later in 494 so we’re less than 20 years into the Republic. At this point, it seems that certain people have gotten so jack of this system that they’re like, it’s time to go somewhere else. Let’s leave Rome. We’ve been here for a while. I don’t want anything more to do with it. And so they leave what is the urban boundary of Rome, which is determined by the pomerium, and they go and head out to a place known as the Mons Sacer, “the sacred mount”, sometimes also referred to as the Aventine. But they might be different places, and it’s this moment where they seem to decide that they need their own representation as well. They need people to negotiate on their behalf, because the patricians aren’t satisfied with this situation. They’re like, what are you doing? Running away. We need you. We need you. And they’re like, Well, you need to treat us better. So it’s a bit like an abusive relationship.

Dr Rad 26:30
It does feel that way.

Dr G 26:32
It does feel that way. And what the plebeians do is they nominate a couple of people to represent their interests. So they kind of like, go for like, you can talk to our lawyers. Okay, don’t talk to me. Talk to my lawyers. And these two people become the start of what will be known as the tribune of the plebs.

Dr Rad 26:54
Very important.

Dr G 26:54
Very important.

Dr Rad 26:56
And this is really interesting as well, because we talked obviously about the dictator coming into play in this century, but this is obviously the century when we see the tribune of the plebs come into play, which remains a really important and unusual position in Rome’s history for different reasons at different times. Obviously it shifts with with each century, but certainly it becomes a real bug bear in the quarrels between the patricians and the plebeians, because the patricians really regret ever giving into this. They’re like, damn it. They really had me over a barrel, and I wish I’d never agreed to that. And they’re constantly trying to think of ways to either undermine this office or actually get their hands on it so that they can presumably dominate that as well.

Dr G 27:41
Kind of horrifying. Very like, Okay, you have representation, but how can we ruin that for you? So it doesn’t interfere with our…

Dr Rad 27:48
We should have never given you that representation!

Dr G 27:50
I have regrets.

Dr Rad 27:54
Regrets, I have a few.

Dr G 27:58
A patrician refrain for the ages.

Dr Rad 28:01
I was gonna say “My Way” seems a very fitting song for the patricians. I think that’s kind of why the plebians are always so upset.

Dr G 28:07
It does make an awful lot of sense.

Dr Rad 28:09
Yeah.

Dr G 28:09
So we have this situation where the in the first secession, the plebeians are convinced to return. It does take some negotiation. They’re like, all right, but you know, we need to have this political representation. We need these tribune of the plebs. Now, all of this is kind of up for grabs in terms of the source material as well. We certainly are not sure about most things to do with this century, but these are the tales that our source material, like Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are suggesting, Dionysius of Halicarnassus are suggesting, and you have some smoothing over of all of this, but problems do bubble under the surface, and that’s what the struggle of the orders is really suggesting, that this is an ongoing process of struggle between These groups, and it all comes to a head again in 449, BCE, which is the second plebeian secession, where everyone’s like, just no, just no. And this is also a controversial situation as well, because at this stage, the republic is not smoothly functioning at all really. They’re under the leadership of a group called the decemvirate so things have gotten a little bit out of hand, and this will tie into some other things as well as we get further into this. But essentially, people are interested in knowing exactly what the laws are in this place, and it seems like some people have been keeping the laws a bit secret. They haven’t been written down properly. They’re not in a public, accessible place, so you can’t just go and find out what the laws are for yourself. Usually, what seems to happen is you try to do something. Thing as a citizen of Rome, somebody more powerful or important than you tells you that you’re not allowed to do that, and in fact, you’ve broken the law, and you didn’t even know that there was a law about that. So there’s a real frustration coming through that, well, if this place has laws, surely everyone needs to know what they are, and this is where they decide to establish something like the decemvirate, which is a group of 10 men, and we’ll get into more detail about them later, but they’re supposed to be putting together a publicly accessible law record. So that’d be nice, but it’s not going well. The plebeians decide they need to secede again. They run away. They head to the Aventine and to the Capitolione Hills. And this really forces another negotiation moment with the elite class. And so there’s this whole situation again, where the patricians have to, sort of, you know, make some concessions. It’s not ideal. They don’t want to, but everybody’s threatening to leave them. So they’re like, Okay, maybe I need to talk to them.

Dr Rad 31:08
It took quite a few diamond tennis bracelets and red roses to win them back.

Dr G 31:12
Well, look, you know, some paid lunches would really be helpful right now.

Dr Rad 31:17
But this is these two secessions are actually the perfect example of how we’ve got the this larger narrative being used to tie together events which may have been quite separate, because the first secession is really about debt, about the fact that with all the warfare happening on top of just the general inequality and hardship that is life in ancient Rome at that point in time, people are really struggling to hang on to what little they have, because they’re constantly away fighting things fall into neglect. They fall into debt. It just becomes a vicious cycle where eventually they find themselves, you know, enslaved for debt in some cases, and they’re not happy about that. The second secession comes about because of the law about the laws. As you said, people wanting things to be written down so that they don’t, you know, find themselves, you know, someone running up to something going, oh, a black cat crossed your path on a Sunday. That’ll be 10 sesterces. Not that that would happen. That’s ridiculous in our every circumstances. But the law about the laws is the key to the decemvirate, so it’s a totally different issue, on top of which it’s also about the fact that the second decemvirate doesn’t let go of their power, that is a trigger, and they’re abusing their power. So it’s also relating to those sorts of issues, so seemingly quite different reasons to secede if we do believe that the second secession happened, but they are, they are both tied together as being examples of this larger conflict of the orders. And maybe our sources are a bit wrong about that. Maybe there are just different points of political social tension in ancient Rome, and it just seems like there’s a larger narrative going on here.

Dr G 32:58
Yeah, perhaps this is a view from hindsight, as we can often talk about as historians. It’s like you have to be really careful when thinking about any event in time and how it might be interconnected or not with the things that happen afterwards. You don’t want to get ahead of yourself too much. I’m not sure that Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are necessarily as concerned about things like that.

Dr Rad 33:25
But I have a feeling they’re not.

Dr G 33:27
That certainly adds some complexity to what we can know about this century. So we’ve talked about the introduction of the tribune of the plebs as being related in part to this Struggle of the Orders. And what we also see, or what is also suggested in our source material, is that although they start out with two representatives, this does expand over the course of the century, until we get to about 10 later on. So part of what makes the tribune of the plebs really special is the fact that their body is considered to be inviolable in the time that they’re holding the role. And this means that in times of physical danger, citizens can run up to them and sort of hold on to the tribune, if you like, sort of seek physical protection, and because the tribune is considered to be inviolable, they are able to physically protect citizens. Now this seems like a really kind of specific thing, but if you think about what would life have been like in the early urban Roman state, where some people are allowed to carry sticks by permission and some people are not, you might think to yourself, well, sometimes you need to run away from the guys with the cudgels and find some safety with somebody who’s designated as inviolable you cannot produce. Violence against them. So that’s the thing. So I think when we think about Rome, obviously it comes to mind as this kind of like militaristic, powerful empire. But in this early period of history, we can start to see these really early, tangible signs of the kind of physical violence that’s always at play in its political landscape, even amongst themselves. So the fact that to be a magistrate means you do get to have a bodyguard, and you can push people out of the way, and if things are going really badly, you can hit people suggest that this is a pretty rough and ready place, and having somebody who is able to offer physical protection to people who are outside of the elite becomes a really important force, and we seem to think that it develops in this century.

Dr Rad 35:52
I have to say, thinking about the tribune of the playoffs at this moment in time, it does make ancient Rome sound like a gigantic game of cops and robbers, and robbers and the tribune of the plebs is the safe you know, like, when you used to play that game, when you were little, you’d be like, safe. I’m safe. Can’t touch me. I’m safe.

Dr G 36:08
Yup yup. I found the person. Tap it.

Dr Rad 36:11
Yeah, but it does, as you say, it kind of highlights just how small scale all of this must have been violent, but small scale, because if you just have two guys who are the safe points. It wouldn’t really work if Rome was gigantic.

Dr G 36:25
Yeah, you would hope that it’s a small place, because that doesn’t seem like enough people to offer protection.

Dr Rad 36:32
No, it does not. I also feel kind of bad for the tribunes. I feel like they would receive a lot of very sweaty, panicky hugs.

Dr G 36:39
Wow. You know,

Dr Rad 36:40
Tasty.

Dr G 36:42
Thank you. Yes, I’ll save you, just don’t touch me. And the patricians aren’t very happy about this. This would seem.

Dr Rad 36:52
No.

Dr G 36:53
It’s a problem. They didn’t really want to allow this. They had to. They were forced into this, and so they are often seeking to bring down the tribune of the plebs from within, it would seem, either through bribery, outright threats, or even worst of all, trying to co opt themselves into the roles so that they also are a tribune of the plebs and can whittle things away from the inside in that sense. So there is a sense in which the tribune of the plebs is always a little bit contentious and also a little bit exposed at all times to whatever the patricians are up to.

Dr Rad 37:37
I do love that idea that the patricians are like, yeah. I mean, it’s totally legit for me to represent plebeian interests and be attributed with the plebs as a patrician. Like, what’s the problem, guys?

Dr G 37:46
I’m interested in your best interests. I’m interested in all our best interests,

Dr Rad 37:52
Conflicting interests? I don’t know what you mean! The height of absurdity. So Dr, G, I believe if people want to go back and listen to our very first episode covering the tribune of the plebs, they have to go all the way back to Episode 59 which we called “Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs”.

Dr G 38:12
I’m glad we’ve got this very, very logical naming system. Easy to find what you’re looking for, guys.

Dr Rad 38:20
Indeed.

Dr G 38:21
We talk about the children of the plebs a lot.

Dr Rad 38:22
Yeah. Now, of course, it’s not all internal drama by any means. In Rome in the fifth century, if anything, this is the century that Rome starts to really put itself on the map. I think I mean the Regal period, sure, but it’s a little bit, you know, it’s a little bit more mythical, dare I say legendary? It’s a little hard to know what’s going on in that time period. So there’s certainly not a predominant power at any point in this century. They are not the Rome that gets made into glorious movies like Gladiator.

Dr G 38:57
Certainly not.

Dr Rad 38:58
But we do see some really interesting interactions with them and other major powers in Italy at this point in time. So we of course have the Etruscans to the north, very influential culture on Rome itself. There’s a lot of interchange there, but also, you know, some conflict. And then we also have the Sabines to the east. They are major players in the fifth century, not quite as much, though, as the aequians and the volscians who are to the south and the Southeast. Oh, if I had $1 for every time I’d said the Aequians and the Volscians, Dr, G.

Dr G 39:38
You would be able to retire right now.

Dr Rad 39:40
I could be a podcaster full time. It’d be amazing. Let’s set up that system.

Dr G 39:45
Yes, I think so. So yeah, Rome is small. It is not predominant in its region necessarily. It seems to be engaging in back and forth conflict. With all of its neighbors. And the fifth century, within the broader terms of what we know about Italy itself, the whole the whole kit and caboodle from north to south, that whole peninsula across this century, it seems to be a century where nobody is really flourishing as much as they have done previously.

Dr Rad 40:22
That is true, yeah.

Dr G 40:23
So the Etruscans seem to have this really sort of thriving trading culture, and they have an influence that spreads all the way into Campania so south of Rome in the sixth century, and that seems to really be curtailed in the fifth century. So they start to lose their foothold in the south, and they start to expand a little bit more and flourish more in the north. So if you think about where the Po River is, they’re doing quite well up there in the fifth century, but where Rome is in the center of Italy, the Etruscans aren’t doing so well, and it’s becoming that that’s their lowest threshold, like the lowest point into Italy, that they are able to retain any control. They lose that influence in Campania. And so that’s all happening. You’ve got the situation in Magna Graecia, where, again, the archeological record suggests that the trading has really slowed down, that you’ve got a lot of infighting between peoples who are from ancestral Greek colonist backgrounds with people from Italic backgrounds. So there starts to be some more internal fighting going on, and the trade network sort of falling away a little bit, and Rome sort of comes through in this era, but we don’t see them flourishing in particular in this century, and they actually have a lot of trouble in certain moments. There’s some good 10 year periods in this century where it seems like they’re getting sort of hit by plague, or they’re going back and forwards against the Volscians and the Aequians, but the next year they lose, and the next year they win, and they’re just sort of fighting over the same bits of territory and the same bits of booty, and it doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. So Rome isn’t preeminent by any means. They have a couple of friends in the region, but they also are struggling with a foothold, and we do get this sense that one of the ways that warfare operates in this century seems to be through the framework of the family. So the gens is a really important mechanism for military power, and the one that really stands out is the Fabian gens in this century, because they’re nearly completely wiped out through their conflict with the Etruscan outpost of Cremera to the north in around about 477 BCE. So they have this huge problem where they lose almost every eligible man who could continue their patriarchal line in this moment. And so we get the sense that warfare isn’t just about elite people trying to levy an army together, but it is about families determining what their interests are and where they might want to send their own personal war band.

Dr Rad 43:28
And I think that this leads so much into the politics that we’ve just been talking about as well. I think with military power obviously being so crucial to Rome survival at this point in time, forget about thriving, just survival against all these other rival powers. With that military backbone being so crucial, it makes sense that we also see the genses being so crucial in political life as well, and certain families being more dominant than others, the networks, you know, the patron client relationships that kind of start to spring up. It’s very futile when we look at it. And that’s where I think the chaos comes from as well, because it is about whether these families, I think, actually have the ability to follow through in a military sense, not just a political sense. And that’s why I think that there’s a little bit more chaos to it than you might otherwise be led to believe where it’s like, well, the republic was founded, and this is how it worked. And, you know, this is how it operated.

Dr G 44:28
Yeah, so the sense that there is, like, this chaotic, familial element that is at the heart of Roman politics, I think, is a really useful idea to take away from the fifth century, because it is going to continue. We’re going to see the rise of different gentes over time, and that’s part and parcel of the way that Roman politics is centered in the extended family in really particular ways. So obviously you have an expanding range of magisterial positions that occur as we go through time in the fifth century. We’re not entirely sure about how complex that structure is, but there’s some and it’s going to get more complex, but certainly we see patterns of families coming into these roles, and it seems to be the case that there is a sense of trust that if a family has held a position before, then they kind of have an experience that will be useful for the next person in their family who comes into that role. So families build reputations within this republican structure in a way that may have not been possible in a monarchical system, but we also see that warband element, so we can’t forget the way that family is operating here, and maybe it is having more of an effect than we’re really aware of. The Struggle of the Orders might be repositioned as something like struggles amongst gentes, for instance.

Dr Rad 46:00
Yeah, definitely. And I think it also makes sense that if we look at the archeological record, and I know this is something we flagged in our detailed episodes, but it makes sense that this would be a century of strife and highs and lows. If we can see in the archeological record that most societies in Italy are struggling at this point in time. You know, there’s even scholars who will write about this thing of the fifth century crisis. So we know that whenever humans are just natural, isn’t it that if you’re put in a difficult position, there’s higher stress in terms of either the cost of your living or having access to certain resources that you need, it’s only natural that you’re going to be more aggressive, perhaps more ready to fight with other people and other groups. It just makes sense. That’s why people are obviously. It’s one of the many reasons why, in this day and age, in 2024 people are so concerned about the effect that climate change is going to have, because it is going to reduce our resources, and it is going to increase our cost of living. So it’s all very well and good to hark back to good old days when none of this was a problem. But that’s not a political problem, you know, you can, you can look back on, you know, things 20, 30, years ago and think, oh, wow, we had it really good back then. I’m going to, you know, think about the politics back then and try and return to that era. That’s not what this is about environmental issues, which, you know, going back to that political party, isn’t going to change. And so to me, it makes so much sense, because what we see in our own time period, I think, is emblematic of what they’re going through. You know, it’s just, it’s just about pressure, stress, all those same sorts of things, human, behavior, I don’t think changes that much in these sort of broader areas that we’re looking at.

Dr G 47:44
Yeah, and I think this is one of the keys to thinking about this state of lack of flourishing, if you like, it’s environmental, and this has consequences for the culture.

Dr Rad 47:57
Yeah.

Dr G 47:57
You can see that playing out pretty clearly for the Romans in this period, like they are on struggle street, and there’s various ways that they try to deal with that, one of which is this decemvirate that I flagged earlier. You know, it’s tough. So by the mid fifth century, BCE, so 452, nobody seems to be particularly happy in Rome. Maybe it’s to do with the dominance of certain elite folk. Maybe it’s to do with the ongoing year on year wars that seem to be coming up and dragging on. But there does become a sense of concern around this idea that the laws are just not explicitly known, and a codification of them would be an important step. This pressure has been building for a while, and this eventually culminates in the creation of the “decemviri consulari imperio legibus scribundis”, the 10 men with consular imperium for writing down the laws.

Dr Rad 49:07
Romans really have to work on their catchy titles for things.

Dr G 49:11
We can call them the decemvirs, I think that’s easier. So they effectively replace the consulship for a short while. And I don’t know.

Dr Rad 49:19
Well, all magistracies, isn’t it? Like, basically, there are no – I thought it was the case that they were like no magistracies apart from – and that’s why it was such a big step, because they had to hand over everything to these guys. It wasn’t it because there was, like, no place of appeal?

Dr G 49:34
Yes. But also, do we have other magistrates?

Dr Rad 49:38
Well, that’s the question.

Dr G 49:41
So I wasn’t I was considering opening the thorny door of, do we even have consuls? But I’m gonna leave that mostly shut.

Dr Rad 49:49
Don’t rain on my parade of imaginary magistrates!

Dr G 49:53
There are some people who used to be in charge in Rome, and now they have been replaced by these 10 men who have a singular job. Their job is to write down the laws, and that would be fine. You got to get the codification. You got to get it done. This is going to become the Twelve Tables, which is exciting, but the project takes way longer than anybody is expecting, and it’s important that they’re given consular imperium as well, because this means that if they need to take a break from the codification of the laws and go and fight a war instead, they have the legitimate authority to do that too. So things take longer than anybody thought they would. One wonders, if they’re being delayed deliberately? Isn’t it nice to be in power? Isn’t it nice for you and nine of your buddies to be swatting about in charge of this place and not really have to give it up until you get the job done? But what if you do? Yeah, what if it takes your whole life to get that job done? So anyway, in 450 it’s decided that there needs to be a second decemvirate. So the first one sort of dragged on a little bit too long, at least twice as long as expected, because they thought it would only take a year, but it’s taken at least two and they’re like, okay, we need to get a second group of these guys. And we really need to finish this task. And the second group is really the choice pick of a guy called Appius Claudius. So he stands out as the preeminent figure in this time period. He has enough charisma and enough tszuj that everyone’s like, well, he should be in charge of that second decemvirate. So he handpicks it basically, and has all of his buddies brought in, and then they all start behaving badly, I think might be the nice way of putting it.

Dr Rad 51:49
To the surprise of nobody who knows the Claudian family.

Dr G 51:54
The Claudian family does have a reputation. Remember this, it is going to become important over and over again.

Dr Rad 52:03
It will, it will different branches and yet.

Dr G 52:06
And yet, yeah, they can’t help themselves. He ends up ruining some innocent lives. And it’s only after a supreme act of violation of Verginia, who is a plebeian woman that the Roman senate who standing off in the background, just a bunch of old men being like, yeah, I don’t know if we should let him do this anymore. They finally are persuaded that the decemvirate needs to be dealt with.

Dr Rad 52:38
And the murder of Dentatus. Dr G, everyone forgets the murder of Dentatus, “the man with teeth”.

Dr G 52:44
The murder of Dentatus is still etched in my soul, because I will never be over the grief. Let’s make that clear. Dentatus did so much, and how was he repaid? Terribly. So eventually, the decemvriate is shut down, we get what we think is their work in the fragments that remain of the Twelve Tables. And it is a bonkers text. So it does seem like maybe the patricians were making up some laws because it’s chaotic out there.

Dr Rad 53:15
Yeah, but it’s so fundamental, isn’t it? It’s such a big deal whenever a society gets to this point where they’re like, right? We’re codifying the laws, and we’re going to write them down this time.

Dr G 53:25
Once and for all, people will know what’s going on. And boy, absolutely did you want to know less about fruit trees.

Dr Rad 53:32
Well, that’s just it. That what we have left of the Twelve Tables, we do have a bit, but it is still somewhat fragmentary, in spite of its immense importance, apparently, to Roman society.

Dr G 53:42
Yeah, very fragmentary. A lot to do with understanding where the borders are between you and your neighbor’s property, and the sorts of things that pertain to what is okay to do if you find something on the wrong side of the fence. And yes, exactly you know, can you drop down the branches? And it’s like, sometimes you can.

Dr Rad 54:03
And this is the Roman dream, Dr G, to have your own land. Which brings me to one of the other big themes of this century, apparently, the dream of agrarian reform. So along with the law about the laws, yeah, law about the laws, issues over debt. This is probably the completes, the trio, I think, of the top plebeian demands in the Struggle of the Orders. It’s a little tricky to understand this, because if we look at what the sources say it is the fact that there is public land, the “ager publicus”, apparently.

Dr G 54:40
Apparently.

Dr Rad 54:41
And it is not always being used in a fair manner. We think that, according to our sources, the elites are perhaps controlling it overly much, instead of it being held in common use for all the citizens. Now we’ve always struggled with this storyline, because it just seems so much like the issues that arise in the late republic and are super controversial at that time period. And this is involves, for those of you who know a little bit about Roman history, the famous Gracchi brothers, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus. They get swept up in these issues of land reform in the late republic. But it’s just brought up so many times.

Dr G 55:27
It is a huge issue, and it seems that Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are very fixated on it. It seems to be one of the pain points of the broader Struggle of the Orders, the idea that there is ager publicus – at this point in time – seems a little far fetched, I would suggest, if we think about the broader context of the fifth century in Italy is not a time of flourishing, it’s a time of struggle, generally speaking, and Rome isn’t expanding very much. Now they do make some acquisitions in the fifth century, little outposts here and there, but it is not at all clear that they are controlling vast tracts of land, no and even if they were controlling even small areas, they tend to lose them and then have to regain them back. It’s not like they are secure holdings. And let’s say, for instance, you took over a place in the fifth century, and you were Rome, and then the next year you lost it, and then the next year you gained it back. Do you gain it back in exactly the same way that you had it before? And what portion of that, if any, would be considered common use land? Goodness knows, it’s madness to me. So I feel like this is something that is really hard to reconcile with just how unstable things appear to be. In the fifth century BCE, the Romans are very much struggling to hold targets that they acquire if they are expanding. It’s not at all clear where that land would go or how it would be used, although sometimes there’s mention of colonists being sent out. And, yeah, it does feel like we’re really getting a later issue being sort of superimposed on this very first century of the republic, just to sort of give us a sense that this has always been on the cards for Rome and the stories that happen much later with the Gracchi are maybe justified to a certain extent that the idea has always been at play.

Dr Rad 57:49
Yeah, and I think as well, if we brush aside the first century BCE curtain that might be covering these issues, maybe what is at stake here is that with all this warfare going on with Rome and its neighbors, maybe it is about the fair and just distribution of booty and access to resources that are being gained in whatever expeditions the Romans are carrying on. Maybe that’s really what is at stake here, and for Livy and Dionysius living in the time period that they live in, that would be land, you know, that that would be a major issue, or maybe it reflects a paucity of land in this time period that people are struggling to survive. I can kind of see some connection, obviously, between that and the issues of debt that we’ve talked about and and there being a division between, obviously, people that have more and people that have less. It’s not necessarily that that that you can put that directly on top of patricians for beings, but I can definitely understand that. It’s a very old story, and one that we still obviously experience now, this division between people that have very much and people that have very little.

Dr G 58:59
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think the dream of agrarian reform, it’s there. How does it manifest? And I like your theory relating to like, is it about equitable distribution of the booty, the things that are taken in warfare, as much as it might be about –

Dr Rad 59:18
Gotta divide up that ass!

Dr G 59:22
Shake it, shake it

Dr Rad 59:22
Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve done one of those jokes.

Dr G 59:25
I always appreciate them, thinking also about like, how does it look when you’re struggling to survive? And, yeah, this is one of the problems that Rome suffers from as well, is that it’s like, this is not a hunky dory time to be a Roman. It is a time where there are plagues, there are ongoing, sort of rotating military campaigns that mean that you’re losing people consistently, which is then affecting your ability to farm, affecting your ability to bring in a harvest, and, yeah, if you don’t have enough land to subsist or produce a little bit of surplus, then obviously this is going to lead to real tensions. So perhaps you do want some agrarian reform.

Dr Rad 1:00:16
Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s that’s something that, again, just to do the modern parallels, which I love to do, even though it completely time stamps out this episode. It is that idea that sometimes when people encounter things that cost a lot, like in terms of clothing or food, they get really outraged in Anglophone countries like Britain and Australia and America. And it’s understandable, because you’ve been led to believe that these sorts of things should be cheap and plentiful, but actually, when you look at the amount of labor and work that goes into producing these resources, and how crucial they are to survival, if everyone in that supply chain and in that production is getting paid well enough, then actually, these things probably should cost a little more than what we’ve been led to believe. Doesn’t mean it should. I’m not saying I agree with the cost of living crisis that is happening in many countries right now, but I think we’ve been led to believe that certain things should be cheap and that we should have huge amounts of disposable income, when actually, if you look at how people used to live in ancient Rome, a huge amount of whatever they were bringing in, not that would be cash, like for us, but whatever they were bringing in, it is labor intensive, and a lot of what they’re trying to produce is just like basic enough clothes to keep them warm or cool, depending on the season, somewhere to live and enough food to survive. That’s really what they’re looking for here. Sure, everyone enjoys entertainment, everyone enjoys that extra stuff that you have. Obviously, there is like something inbuilt in us where there’s competition and rivalry and we want to have more. But I think that comes from a self rival instinct, whereas these days, what it applies to obviously that more is becoming just so extravagant, the lifestyle that we expect with that more is just, it’s insane when you look at what people are aspiring to have, and that’s why it’s just, it’s yeah, just not reachable for most.

Dr G 1:02:12
Yeah, for sure. And I think when we’re thinking about Rome and how people are struggling in this century. It is perhaps even more, I don’t want to say, laudable, that’s the word that came to mind. But that’s not the right word. Even more interesting. Stick with something really neutral. One of my favorite words interesting that they do field as many military forces as they do absolutely part of it is about survival, and part of it is trying to create that sort of protective barrier between yourself and the danger. So if you can have that buffer zone, it’s strategic, military, you know, it’s tactical. If you can do that, that’s really useful, because that allows you to then relax a little bit in terms of being able to produce a little bit extra so that you can do that again. And that’s kind of the struggle that Rome and all of her neighbors are in, is that they’re all trying to gain just a little bit of security for themselves. That means that they’ve got enough surplus to do it again if they have to, because it’s pretty clear that they will have to year on year. So I think this leads us very nicely into thinking about the way that this militarization and conflict throughout the region is really becoming more and more severe as the century goes on, because they have to develop this whole new political entity, the military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 1:03:55
Such a wordy title.

Dr G 1:03:57
It is a wordy title. And I don’t know that they’re I see people sort of like, you know, turning it into, like an abbreviation, the MTCP, and I’m like no! It’s the military tribune with consular power. It is so you can’t have a new political system without some teething issues. The dictator has been a bit of a solution. The tribune of the plebs a bit of a solution. And then we’ve got this idea that the major magistracies are these two consuls, this idea that there’s a sharing of what used to be monarchical power between these two figures. But sometimes you’ve got even bigger issues, and one of the key facets of the consulship is this idea that they are legally, legitimately able to field military forces, which is great, because you could have two armies going in different directions led by two different people. But what if? What if, Dr Rad, you had more than two enemies that you needed to deal with in a particular year?

Dr Rad 1:05:06
Which I think Rome often does. They managed to annoy a lot of people. It’s impressive. Actually, it’s laudable, you might say.

Dr G 1:05:14
Let’s say you’re not great at making friends. And let’s say you’re better at making enemies. And let’s say all your enemies decide to attack in the same year. Well, maybe you got a bit of a crisis on your hands, because you’ve got a situation now where you’re like, well, if I had one big issue, I could bring in a dictator, but I’ve got four big issues that I need to deal with…

Dr Rad 1:05:39
I got 99 problems.

Dr G 1:05:42
Exactly. It’s like, my problems are multiplying, and I just don’t have the manpower. And all of a sudden, you’re like, I need more people to be able to lead armies. This is where the military tribune with consular power comes in. And not only is it beneficial in terms of being able to have more armies in the field, although presumably they’re smaller armies than if you had two big armies. But there is a sense in which it’s a military tribune, which is kind of like a lower level position within the military structure. And this allows them to co-opt plebeians into this leadership role all of a sudden. Or that’s the theory anyway.

Dr Rad 1:06:27
That’s the theory.

Dr G 1:06:28
That’s the theory. So sometimes we have four military tribunes with consular power. Sometimes we have six. It gets more chaotic as the century goes on, and theoretically, we’re allowed to have some plebeians in there, but that really doesn’t happen until we get right to the end of the fifth century BCE.

Dr Rad 1:06:52
Which is, I think again, one of those interesting examples of potentially the narrative maybe overriding what was actually happening. So rather than saying, look, guys, I’m not going to lie to you, things were tough in this century. Whew, boy. We almost got snuffed out completely a few times, rather than potentially admitting that, it feels like whenever we talk about military tribunes with consular power, it’s far more a political issue, where it’s about who’s going to hold the power, the ultimate power? Is it going to be a patrician? Is it going to be a plebeian? Constantly we are talking about this rivalry, about, Oh, what the what’s the election going to be for the next year? Is it going to be a consular year, or is it going to be military tribunes with consular power? And it’s never really connected to the fact that maybe it’s because there is so much going on militarily, and then towards the end of the fifth century, BCE, rather than Rome sort of trading tit for tat with neighbors, which feels like what happens a lot of the time in the fifth century BCE, it seems like Rome is actually going a little bit more aggressively for expansion. And so it would make sense again, to have military tribunes with consular power if you were trying to be on the front foot more than you were on the back foot, or, you know, just responding to some sort of other conflict where it’s being resolved militarily. So yeah, it’s really weird that we very rarely see talk about this position, and how many there were of them in the sense of, well, Rome just has that many problems, guys.

Dr G 1:08:26
So many problems. And we just need so many people to help us out.

Dr Rad 1:08:30
Yeah.

Dr G 1:08:31
And sometimes they do get sent to similar locations. So as we hit the end of the fifth century BCE, we are at the start of the siege of Veii and it does seem like there are moments where Rome sends a whole bunch of commanders to the same location, being like, alright, well, it’s military tribunes of consular power this year. But that’s the problem, and so that does feed into this idea that you’ve suggested that we’re talking about something that is not just about the practicality of, can we field enough armies? Because we’ve got too many war fronts that we need to deal with to this is a political situation, and we certainly don’t want some people sitting in that consulship this year. It’s got to be a military tribunate instead, and the ins and outs of that are completely beyond our capacity to reckon with, with the source material that we’ve got. But it is fascinating.

Dr Rad 1:09:32
It definitely is, and I feel very happy, at least, that we did manage to get a plebeian in just under the line.

Dr G 1:09:39
Scraping in.

Dr Rad 1:09:42
Yeah. Well, Dr, G, I think that that does definitely give people a bit of a highlight through looking back and seeing those tensions between the haves and have nots, whoever they may be, we’re not. We’re not going to make them fit in these labelled categories, we’re too cool and hip for that.

Dr G 1:10:02
I don’t like, I don’t like labels.

Dr Rad 1:10:04
Yeah, don’t like labels. And definitely the power of the families and that extended family structure being so important. So the gens being really at the heart of the political and military life of Rome at this point in time, and that perhaps explaining why there is this sense of chaos. It’s just lurking beneath the order that Livy and Dionysius have given to the narratives. It seems so, seems like everything’s so together. But really, you peek underneath it, it’s not quite a set in stone, as they would have us.

Dr G 1:10:38
Yeah, open that door. Have a look inside. Close it again. Be like Rome. It’s chaos in there.

Dr Rad 1:10:42
Yeah.

Dr G 1:10:43
Rome certainly doesn’t have a formal army in this century. Far from it. It is really a situation where they have to be called up every sort of campaign season.

Dr Rad 1:10:55
Ah, the levy.

Dr G 1:10:57
Yeah. So there is a levy every time, and so people have to sign up to be on campaign, which must take a reasonable amount of time. So that is interesting. People don’t get paid. It’s part of your civic duty, not something that you are getting an income from. And we start to see a little hint that potentially, there is payment offered to Roman military forces right at the end of the fifth century BCE. And again, it’s related to the siege of Veii.

Dr Rad 1:11:31
A little hint? You’re calling Livy, talking about military pay multiple times, a little hint? Well, that’s just shows how much do you value him, Dr G!

Dr G 1:11:42
It’s a very small hint. I would not be the first historian who has a small quibble with Livy on this point.

Dr Rad 1:11:51
I know, I know.

Dr G 1:11:54
The idea that you could run a siege, which has to run regardless of the season, rain, hail, shine, you’re on siege. The idea that that would maybe necessitate or encourage some sort of monetary compensation from the elites does make some sense, because prior to having a long, protracted siege, warfare tends to be campaign season only. So do your levy in the early spring. You get out in the summer, you wrap it up before winter, because you’ve got to get home. So that whole situation in terms of like warfare being tied to the seasonal calendar might allow you to just sort of be like, it’s a citizen duty to turn up and do the fighting, and it’s like, and the weather is nice, and you’re hanging out with your bros, and you’re like, yeah, look, I’ve seen some traumatic things, but, you know, I had some fun as well.

Dr Rad 1:12:53
It’s summertime, and you know what that means?

Dr G 1:12:56
It means I’m wearing my shorty shorts and I’m on the battlefield with my bros

Dr Rad 1:13:01
Who wears short shorts? Actually, we should change that rewind, who wears short skirts?

Dr G 1:13:10
I mean, it’s beautiful out there. You know, there’s a man hanging out with men writing letters home. Dear Marcia.

Dr Rad 1:13:20
So the other thing that we definitely see throughout the fifth century BCE, not surprising, and again, something that modern listeners perhaps have greater understanding of now than they would have 10 years ago, is just how much illness can have an impact on a civilization. So we certainly see devastating outbreaks of plague. What exactly that illness is, when they say plague or pestilence, is anybody’s guess, because, of course, we have very different understandings of medical matters in the modern time period to the ancient. But certainly the way that that could really bring Rome to its knees. And that, I think, also links into other disasters, like, you know, famine, infestations of, you know, insects, anything like that. Obviously can be really devastating for these sorts of civilizations. And I think we kind of started to feel like that wasn’t the case again in very privileged countries. But Covid really showed us that that is not the case at all, that any civilization actually can be ground to a halt if the illness is serious enough, so.

Dr G 1:14:30
Yeah, and I think the thing for Rome is, the sad benefit for Rome in all of this sort of stuff is that plagues – they’re not interested in your borders. You know they will sweep through your neighbors, just as they will sweep through you. So you have a situation across the fifth century where Rome falls under the blight of some sort of plague and pestilence. But they’re not the only ones, so it’s not like their enemies. Can take advantage of the situation in any particular way, because they, too, are having a plague and all lying about being like just let it be over. I can’t live like this anymore.

Dr Rad 1:15:13
The odd time when they have tried to take advantage because they haven’t been infected, usually they end up getting infected because they got too close to the Romans, exactly. So isolation, guys, it works.

Dr G 1:15:24
I mean, if you don’t have the plague, don’t run at somebody who has the plague.

Dr Rad 1:15:28
Yes, social distancing, it’s a thing.

Dr G 1:15:31
It works, guys, it works. Follow the science.

Dr Rad 1:15:35
Yeah, and so, yeah. Basically, we’ve got the fifth century being really interesting, because it is a time of struggle. It’s a time of conflict. Rome is trying to establish itself. It certainly is a power that’s worthy of discussion at this time. You know, people are definitely taking note of it. People want to conquer it. People want to grind it into the dust under their sandaled heel. But it certainly isn’t a major power that is winning every battle. I mean, I if I thought of it at the time, we really should have kept a scoreboard of how many times Rome wins and how many times it loses, because I feel like it would come out fairly evenly.

Dr G 1:16:13
I feel like, yeah, for every victory there’s definitely a loss. And you know, they’re having this ongoing struggle with the Etruscans. The Volscians are a thorn in their sides, the Aequians and later on, the Faliscans. And they’ve got some friends as well. The Tusculans seem to be always on Rome’s side.

Dr Rad 1:16:32
Adorable Tusculans, yes.

Dr G 1:16:34
Rome has made some friends. The Hernicians are their friends, which is cute, but yeah, it’s it’s it’s bonkers out there. And they are not a regional leader at all. They’re one of many competing for the same resources in the same very nice part of Central Italy.

Dr Rad 1:16:54
Yeah. And I like to say thank you to everybody who’s been with us throughout this past century and before, if you were with us for the Regal period as well, and also the period before that, when we were doing things much more randomly, kind of like the Romans. See, order develops with time.

Dr G 1:17:09
Order from chaos.

Dr Rad 1:17:12
That’s right, that’s how it happens. Now I should say, I know that I’ve been a little bit present just today, and I often am a bit presentist in the way that we talk about things, but I think that the reason why I like history so much Dr G is that by thinking through the experiences that the Romans had and the experiences that I’ve had myself, it actually kind of helps me to understand their scenario, even though I know it’s not the same. I know you can’t translate my life and put it into ancient Rome by any means, but in terms of the basic emotions that they were feeling, or the very, very broad experiences, I just feel like it gives me more empathy for what people were going through back then, and I also feel like it helps me to process what I’m going through right now as a person living on this planet.

Dr G 1:17:57
Yeah, and I think there’s a huge value to doing history as a way of understanding the self and for seeing certain parallels. Obviously, nothing is a one to one parallel. Everything is vastly different in all of its manifestations through time. But there are ways in which we can see the way that the Romans are sort of navigating their definition of self through the way the historians write about it much later.

Dr Rad 1:18:23
Absolutely, yeah, they’re doing the same thing, yeah.

Dr G 1:18:26
And that process of coming to grips with the past as a way of coming to grips with yourself, I think, is one of the great pleasures of history. So any point in time in which you do history and practice history, the outcome will always be a little bit different, and that is because your present is always a little bit different from the present of somebody else. So yeah, returning to these things over time, you start to learn more about yourself, more about your own society, and it raises questions, not just about the past, but also about the here and now, which I think is fascinating.

Dr Rad 1:19:00
Exactly. It makes it intelligible. I think history is at the end of a just good to think with. And there is no doubt in my mind that if I were plunked by a DeLorean, of course, into the fifth century BCE, I would probably die within a week, because I don’t have the skills necessary. But if I think about the sorts of issues that the Romans are talking about and wrestling with, you know, those sort of core conversations and questions about power and how a society should function, and what our responsibility to each other is if we’re living in form of society, I mean, it’s all very understandable all of a sudden, even though I’m like, wow, your life is so foreign, I can be like, wow, actually, we’re not that different.

Dr G 1:19:46
So true.

Dr Rad 1:19:48
So Dr, G, it’s been such a delight spending so much time in the fifth century. BCE, with you, and I cannot wait to see what a new century has in store for us.

Dr G 1:19:57
Did we just spend nearly a decade in the fifth century BCE?

Dr Rad 1:20:02
I think we did. We’re gonna have to live really long lives. Quick, take that magic potion!

Dr G 1:20:08
I’m very excited to start exploring the fourth century BCE, with you, Dr Rad, and I look forward to the next time we chat.

Dr Rad 1:20:15
Absolutely, we’re certainly not gonna run out of material!

Dr G 1:20:18
Oh, no!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 154 – The Fifth Century BCE in Review appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We are in shock that it has taken us this long to cover the cult classic that is Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979). We have Rslaugesen over on Patreon to thank for pointing out this glaring oversight.

Special Episode – Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979)

Once we got started, it was hard for us to stop talking about the Life of Brian. British comedy was a staple of our childhoods and Monty Python was one of our favourites. It was a treat to follow the development of this movie from Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory to a Sliding Doors-style story of Brian Cohen, born in the manger over from Christ.   

A still from Life of Brian showing Brian’s followers admiring his sandal, one of the sacred objects he unwittingly bestows upon them. Courtesy of FM Cinema.

Whilst Monty Python were probably trying to make a parody of 1970s Britain rather than a historically accurate portrait of first century CE Judea, we still found this film intriguing. From wolf’s nipples to imperialism, we take you through all the best Roman scenes… and perhaps a few non-Roman scenes as well. Who can resist talking about the Virgin Mandy?

Part of the appeal of Life of Brian is the fact that it is not afraid to make fun of the Romans (or anyone) and shows a much less glamorous side of the empire. Quite the contrast to the epics of the 1950s and 1960s.

Things to Look Out For:

Comedies don’t always stand the test of time. We can spot some awkward moments in the film, but overall, we think Life of Brian stands the test of time. Forty-five years after it’s release, we would love to know whether you agree!

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello and welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:07
and I am. Dr G, we are thrilled to be here.

Dr Rad 1:12
We are because today we are returning once more to my home, away from homes, Hollywood. Well, not really, Hollywood, actually,

Dr G 1:21
really, do you do you holiday in Hollywood? Actually,

Dr Rad 1:24
No I hate Hollywood, but we are returning to Rome at the movies, which is my safe space.

Dr G 1:32
I do like this space as well, and over the years, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from you and your expertise in this area. So I’m super excited for this episode.

Dr Rad 1:42
It is very kind of you to say, especially because I cannot understand Latin

Dr G 1:48
comes and goes.

Dr Rad 1:51
All right, so Dr, G, today we are actually looking at a British version of Rome on screen, and that is Monty Python’s Life of Brian, and I cannot believe we have not talked about it until this point.

Dr G 2:08
I know this is very exciting, and this has come about because of a Patreon request, which I think is excellent as well. Interested in the depiction of Rome on screen in what is essentially a satire of the period, but also the broader question of, what has Rome ever done for the provinces? I

Dr Rad 2:29
make so many Monty Python puns, it is actually insulting that we haven’t talked about these films at all. I mean, look, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna set the scene personally a little bit here. Dr, G, so. Dr G, you and I are Australian. Oh, God. Now because we’re Australians of a certain age, I don’t know about you, but I grew up watching a lot of British television. I think these days British culture is maybe less of a thing for anyone growing up in Australia. And obviously a lot of Australians don’t grow up here. And even even for our age group, it was probably because of my background being like Anglo background as well. That’s why I was watching that kind of stuff. But it was also because they were like four television channels, and I feel like the British influence was fairly strong, along with American influence and that sort of thing. I certainly watched American TV as well, but there were a lot of reruns on television that you would watch after school, and so I watched a lot of 50s, 60s, 70s television as a child born somewhere in the 80s, I won’t tell you where. I don’t know, is it the same for you?

Dr G 3:42
Yeah, by and large. So my father is English, so I think that has stronger,

Dr Rad 3:48
yeah, the force is strong with this one.

Dr G 3:51
Ah the imperialism. But this meant that there was a preference for British shows when I was a child, growing up in our household over American TV programming, yeah? So there tended to be rules around what you could watch that came out of America, whereas for English things and British things, it was much more sort of open slather, yeah, and the family was happy to oblige if you wanted to watch some Monty Python, yeah. And

Dr Rad 4:18
look, I think there’s something to be said for still to this day, there’s a certain brand to Australian humor that I think will always have a bit of a legacy in the British connection, in the sense that, if I think about the sort of reruns I would watch from America, they were very much like, Oh, darling. Did you get sauce on your tie again? Canned laughter. Whereas the British shows that I tended to watch growing up were, I think, a little bit more tongue in cheek, more absurdist,

Dr G 4:47
yeah, less canned laughter. It was really just waiting for you to laugh, and you got to choose when,

Dr Rad 4:54
yeah. So that’s my personal background. So I think that’s why Monty Python was very much a part of. Of my upbringing, along with other things that I consider to be classics like Black Adder. Ah,

Dr G 5:06
yes, another a love story. Yes, exactly

Dr Rad 5:08
like Black Adder, Are You Being Served Dad’s Army? I mean, the list goes on and on and on.

Dr G 5:15
And look, I was a great fan of red dwarf as well. I

Dr Rad 5:19
see I never actually watched that one anyway. I definitely was aware of it, even though I didn’t watch it myself. So yeah,

Dr G 5:27
yeah, there is a tendency in British humor from these periods to lean into class critique, which might be somewhere to start with. This film

Dr Rad 5:38
might be relevant indeed. All right, so let’s maybe start, I thought, with a basic overview of what this film is even about. And warning to you all, this will contain spoilers, but you’ve had decades to see in the film, because it came out before I was born.

Dr G 5:52
It came out in 1979 so we’re definitely younger than that.

Dr Rad 5:56
And look, there is a very quick way to sum up the basic premise of this film. So it is a film about Brian Cohen, a young man who happens to be born in the manger over from Jesus, and from there on, kind of lives a somewhat parallel life to Jesus Christ, in that he lives in the same area, in the same hood. This is the sliding doors of Jesus. It is, it is the sliding doors of Jesus. And so we basically follow the life story of Brian Cohen and see what happens in the time period in which he’s living, which is around, you know, somewhere in the 30s, CE, because it is in the year of our Lord, obviously. And so it kind of starts with the Nativity and goes through to Brian’s death in his sort of mid 30s, which is obviously around the same age that Jesus presumably was, if we take those dates to be accurate.

Dr G 6:50
Well, there’s some reasonable historical evidence for a man called Jesus, there is in this time period, and we’re in your favorite Imperial time period as well. This is Tiberius. I know time to shine. I

Dr Rad 7:02
know. I know not many people I think know that Tiberius was the emperor in charge when Jesus Christ was

Dr G 7:08
crucified. I think more people would dislike Tiberius if they knew that well. I

Dr Rad 7:12
mean, look, I’m gonna say something controversial here, but to be honest, I don’t think he was deeply involved with what was happening. I think that’s kind of part of the problem.

Dr G 7:21
Look, the man at the top of the pile who’s ostensibly in charge of everything, says it’s not his responsibility. He doesn’t hold the hose.

Dr Rad 7:28
Well, look, I’m just gonna say there are a lot of people that were crucified underneath Roman imperial rule, and even before the Empire existed, and Jesus is just one of them. In my book, controversy, but that’s because I should say I am not a Christian, so

Dr G 7:48
neither am I, although I think this film is quite respectful of religion, a lot of people agreed consider it to be blasphemous and to be a film that is heretical in nature, but they generally don’t touch the story of Jesus at all. In this film, it is very much focused on Brian and his adventures, yeah, and, but I just think is more to do with fanaticism. And, yeah, how people get into sort of cults of belief,

Dr Rad 8:16
exactly? And I just said, I should say, as my own personal perspective, I’m not a Christian. So I’m not coming at this subject with any particular reverence. I know of Jesus because of obviously being raised in a at the time, largely Christian country, and also because the culture around me when I was growing up was largely Christian. And also because, you know Rome, you know the more that you study Rome, the more you come into contact with it. But I wouldn’t identify wouldn’t

Dr G 8:43
identify as a Christian. The deeper get into Roman history, the more you get into early Christianity. That

Dr Rad 8:47
is true Exactly, exactly, anyway. So to give a bit of background to people who might be less familiar with Monty Python, I thought maybe we could give a little bit of a pitted history of Monty Python. So Monty Python are a beloved to most people. I think comedy troupe and they kind of came about in British society. I think a really interesting time, you know, as like the landscape, I think was changing in terms of cultural values, cultural criticism and comedy and that sort of thing. But they’re actually very highly educated men. You know, a lot of them came from degrees at Oxford and Cambridge, where they were studying things like medicine, law and, of course, history. And while they were there, though, they got involved in comedy. Obviously, those particular universities are known to have pretty legendary comedy groups like the footlights, and they ended up getting involved in writing and performing the various comedy shows that were seen as being kind of at the forefront of comedy at the time, like being quite cutting edge. So, for example, Do Not Adjust Your Set, The Frost Report. And at last, The 1948 show. And these were all kind of, a lot of them were kind of sketch shows, and that sort of. Where they were working on things for the BBC. They ended up teaming together because they had encountered each other either at university or they met each other working on these sorts of shows. And they came together as Monty Python’s Flying Circus, where they produced a television show for the BBC between the years of 1969 and 1974 and the men involved, of course, being Graham Chapman, Terry Jones, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, John Cleese and Michael Palin. And something to note, perhaps, is that I don’t believe that Monty Python’s Flying Circus as a show was actually screened in the USA until 1974 so it kind of be started to be shown in sort of the mid 70s across the pond as this

Dr G 10:45
interesting. Okay, so they get a late start into the US. Yeah,

Dr Rad 10:49
a little bit of a later start. Yeah, exactly. And they always, I think, therefore, appealed to people who were because of their style of comedy, which was really as it came out of a lot of a lot of these shows, and also was influenced by people like Spike Milligan and his brand of comedy. But it was different in the way that they would set up a sketch. It didn’t have to have a punch line. It was it was absurdist, as you said before, that was kind of their sense of humor. It was very much satire of British society and particularly the British class system, that’s a lot of what their sketches sort of focused on, and that sort of thing when they were making the television show. And so as a result, I suppose, given that they’re coming about, sort of like the late 60s, early 70s as a group, I think we can kind of see how that’s obviously a key time in society where we know that there are people who are starting to be more questioning and critical of the status quo,

Dr G 11:47
and this is the post war generation that are now hitting adulthood, and they’ve got some hard questions to ask about the society that has been built around them in that landscape and as a consequence of those war the 20th century. So,

Dr Rad 12:02
yeah, exactly. So Monty Python as a group started to transition away from television and into making motion pictures together. I don’t think they ever had like necessarily the hugest audience when they were on TV, but they certainly had a very decent sized audience, and they were tending to be more like appealing to like intellectual people or people with a slight intellectual bent, because their comedy is very clever, to be honest. They’ve actually been criticized for, I think, bringing a little bit too much of their sort of university level of education to their types of sketches. But anyway, so they started making movies, so perhaps the biggest hit that most people would have heard of before Life of Brian is, of course, Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail, a classic. Indeed it is. But a lot of their films still reflected their background in sketch comedy. And the interesting thing about Monty Python, I always thought is that when I watched them as a younger person, I kind of always thought that they were very clever people who were getting together and riffing, you know, and that’s kind of how their stuff came about. But actually, because they were all highly experienced writer performers, and they had that background before they even got together, but then obviously together, they sort of brought that stuff from their background. They actually were extremely, I think, methodical in that they tended to really write things and rehearse them, and it was all very carefully planned so that obviously the humor and the joke that they were aiming for would sort of come through in the final product. So I think they sort of give the impression sometimes that they were improvising, but actually it was all quite planned out, yes.

Dr G 13:40
And I think if you watch, go back and watch Monty Python’s Flying Circus, it is very, I would say today, hit and miss, oh yeah, at the time was uniquely constructed, yes, for things that were emerging in that time period, the idea that they didn’t really care about plot. For instance, no Life of Brian is considered the first film that they do which is plot driven, because while holy grail comes out a few years earlier, and it does have something of a plot, there is also insertions of random sketches and chaotic bits and pieces. So there is a sequence that leads you to understand a plot, but Life of Brian is scripted and does seem to have a very clear narrative arc. Yes,

Dr Rad 14:29
absolutely and but even so, I think, I think that reflects something in their style of writing. So because they were all writer performers, Terry Gilliam, obviously, is more known as he was a performer, obviously, with the group, and he did contribute, but he more contributed, I think, in terms of his animations, which are obviously a huge part of Monty Python’s esthetic. But, yeah, but most of the rest of them, they are writer performers, and I think that the way that they would approach things is that they would go away and just write. You know, they would go. And write. And they tended to sometimes, I think even split off into particular grouping within the wider troupe. Like, I think Graham Chapman and John Cleese worked quite closely together a lot of the time. And I think think Terry Jones and Michael Palin might have worked together a lot of the time, but nonetheless, they would sort of go away and write bits and pieces and then start to come back and sort of compare notes and bring it together. So you can kind of see how, even when they’re writing a narrative film, I think it still kind of starts with, like sketches and scenes that they can use as a basis of something, and then bring it together. Yeah, so Life of Brian, it is universally, I think, accepted. Had it through in this moment where they were asked, after Holy Grail, what was going to be their next project? And they replied, Jesus Christ, lust for glory, which was a pun based on a film that had come out in 1970 pattern, lust for glory. But it did obviously germinate. Yeah, there was the seed

Dr G 15:56
had been planted. One facetious remark, I believe, by Eric Idle, yes, exactly. Then gets expanded into like, oh, maybe we should consider an angle on the life of Jesus and the sorts of things that might be up for critique and lampooning here,

Dr Rad 16:14
yes, exactly. And they actually went away and did their research. And when they did their research, they found that Jesus Christ is actually not terribly funny.

Dr G 16:24
This is a very serious subject matter and not one to be laughed at. Because, actually, as far as I understand it, they came to the conclusion that the message that Jesus is offering is genuinely a good one, yeah, and there’s not much to be laughed at. There, no,

Dr Rad 16:38
no, exactly. And so because they didn’t find that Jesus himself or his message was necessarily anything to be laughed at. They started playing around with ideas of what was happening around him that we could possibly work with. And they had a few ideas. I believe one of them was having a 13th disciple, and Brian would be that particular character who was always the one who unlucky, yeah, he was always the one that missed the miracle. So they played around with that idea, but eventually they decided on the idea of having a parallel life set up for their particular narrative. Thus Brian Cohen was born, and I think the idea as well was that they found, as you said earlier, the way that people engage with religion, particularly the way that people were engaging with various cults at this time, was what was funny, not necessarily like it was easy enough to make fun at people who, you know, take things too far or take things too seriously, rather than the person that the religion is based around. So it’s more the Messiah fervor that they decided to make fun of.

Dr G 17:44
Yeah, yeah. So that real interest in that there, there is some sort of Savior figure that they can be identified, and then, once identified, must be followed, yes, and how you go about demonstrating your loyalty to a messiah. All of this is up for a little bit of a joke in this film. Yes, exactly.

Dr Rad 18:02
So they were able to use the sets from a TV show that had been filmed by Franco zifarelli on Jesus of Nazareth as the basis for their sets, because that’s convenient. That saves money. Yeah, and they decided to film in Tunisia. Legendarily, they were going to be making this film with EMI, but EMI decided that it was way too

Dr G 18:24
blasphemous. Do not want to get in trouble with Christians. Exactly.

Dr Rad 18:29
Basically, there was, like a Roman Catholic friend of like the chief executive, a guy called Lord Bernard del font, yeah, who said this is way too close to blasphemy, or indeed, is blasphemy, and so EMI pulled the financing because Eric idol and George Harrison, yes, that George Harrison were friends. George Harrison helped them to get financing, as well as putting up a million pounds himself. I

Dr G 18:55
kind of love that, like one of the Beatles is involved and is crucial to the story of this film. I love that exactly.

Dr Rad 19:01
And ended up making a small cameo as the owner of the mount in the film. And he did that just because he was a fan of Monty Python, and he just kind of wanted to see what they did with his particular story. And so that’s how they ended up being able to go off to Tunisia and film this particular movie, which happened, I think it was written very quickly. I think it was filmed quite quickly. And this is because, again, as I said to you, like the way that Monty Python do things they do, I think actually plan things out far more than people might realize. As a result, a lot of their stuff was put together relatively quickly for a movie. But

Dr G 19:35
yes, yeah, I think there was a couple of years there of preparation and definitely some delays when EMI pulled out absolutely and then they got back on track after George Harrison got involved. And then

Dr Rad 19:46
so the film is obviously set in the province of Judea, a province of the Roman Empire at this point in time. And obviously it’s meant to be around the 30s, where most of the action takes place, or it. It for the manger nativity scene, obviously, where Brian and Jesus have won right at the beginning.

Dr G 20:06
I mean, it’s still in the same area and still kind of under Roman control at that time as well, although probably the client King Herod is in charge around

Dr Rad 20:16
that time, I was gonna say it’s a bit of historical setting for you all. So Herod, the great, was in charge of Judea. Well, sorry, was in charge of a whole region until about four BCE, which is when he died, which obviously would be around the time that Jesus were born, or maybe a few years before. The Dating is obviously a bit speculative. And Augustus had been in charge at that point in time, and he ended up splitting the kingdom of Herod, the great between his sons. So Herod Antipas was set up in Galilee as the tetrarch, and he would be there until around 39 CE. So just after the events that we’re focusing on transpired, Philip was set up as the Tetrarch of Golan Heights until around 3040, and Herod Archelaus was the leader of Judea at around, well at first, but see, the thing was, I believe that he became a bit of a problematic leader and was removed. And this is, this is what kind of started to stir up trouble in this region, like his removal and the rival factions that existed within Judea at this point in time, which weren’t actually initially, necessarily hugely anti Roman, which is kind of the impression you might get from watching Life of Brian. There certainly were anti Roman groups by the time. But you know, as you, as you travel through, but really the around the time of Jesus, I’m not sure how many anti Roman groups there were. I think there was a lot of more factional, regional fighting going on and rivalry. I

Dr G 21:50
think you’ve got a lot to think about when you get to the fallout of Herod, the great so a client King inserted by Rome in order to ensure stability that is a product of the Roman education system, so coming into an area of which he is local too. And so this is something that the Romans tended to do quite a lot, is that they take families of high significance, politically as hostages, then raise their children in Rome and then send them back out to rule as a friend of Rome in their place. And so trying to secure regions like this, from a Roman perspective, was all about, well, how can we make the local politics work in our favor? Absolutely, yeah. And so I think there is a sense underlying that kind of activity, which suggests that Rome understood that this was a little bit far out of their reach, that they needed somebody on the ground to do Roman work in a Roman way that wouldn’t be completely offensive to the local people, and understood the local cultural norms and things like that. So when we think about this region, and I feel like it stands out for me really pertinently in this time period when we’re recording, having seen what is happening in Palestine and what is happening with modern Israel, and the horrific amount of death that is going on there that these complexities have a very, very long history, absolutely,

Dr Rad 23:25
yeah, yeah, because Judea is roughly modern Israel, Palestine together, like roughly, roughly, yeah, yeah.

Dr G 23:33
It doesn’t map on exactly, but this whole area has a very long history of complex relationships and also a sense in which who has a priority over areas of land exactly. And when you split something like a client Kingdom amongst it was supposed to be four sons, that’s why we’re calling them tetrarchs, but one of them ends up having half of the region. Yeah, that’s a bit of a problem already. And he’s the problematic one that gets removed, right? And then you have to bring in, then Rome’s like, Okay, well, we’ll send in some real we’ll send in Romans. Yes, you know, we’ll have a visual Roman presence in this region of the province of Judea. We’ll turn it into a province. It’s no longer a client king. You guys cannot look after yourselves. We’ve got too much at stake in this area. Yeah, we want to have control of it. We’ll send our own people. And so by the time we get to the really key parts of the narrative that are the Life of Brian, we’re dealing with Pontius Pilate.

Dr Rad 24:38
We are better known to everybody who’s seen Jesus Christ Superstar as Pontius Pilate.

Dr G 24:44
Pontius Pilate, well, I like calling him Pontius Pilate as well, because it makes me think of airplanes. But the Latin is Pontius Pilate, yes.

Dr Rad 24:55
And he was a prefect of Judea from around 26 CE to. Be 36 CE.

Dr G 25:01
So he sees all of the key political things that are going to make the Christians very mad, like

Dr Rad 25:08
there for it all. So he is there underneath, as you said, the Anthro Tiberius is,

Dr G 25:15
keep that in mind, everybody Tiberius was in charge,

Dr Rad 25:20
not gonna deny it good. Now, of course, the background of all of this is that there’s also a very powerful high priest who’s also important to this Jesus story, who’s in power from around 18 CE to 37 CE, and that is Caiaphas. So Caiaphas is someone who will have contact with Pilate as a man on the ground who Pilate will consult when making decisions. And it’s between these two guys that we see the Jesus story unfolding, really, in the sense that Jesus is obviously arrested, he is tried before Caiaphas, and this is something that’s recorded in all four of the Gospel accounts and the Sanhedrin, which is the Jewish religious council Jesus, is given over to the Roman powers by the high priests and their council. And it is the Romans who decide to crucify Jesus Christ, and that’s kind of the background to what is happening. Yeah.

Dr G 26:24
So in this background, what we can see already is that there is complex interrelationships between the political and the religious. And yeah, I think there is a tendency, from a Western perspective, to separate out state and church. Yeah, people like to do that. It is a fallacy. It doesn’t matter where you live. Those things are very entwined. So think about where you live and how the politics operates, and how spiritual beliefs actually have a great deal of influence on how those political actions and beliefs get

Dr Rad 26:58
Yeah, because I believe that Pilate actually gave Jesus to Herod, Antipas and and this particular Herod was like, no, no, I’m

Dr G 27:04
not doing anything about

Dr Rad 27:06
that you deserve.

Dr G 27:08
I don’t want to get involved. Yeah,

Dr Rad 27:10
and Pilate. Therefore, Pilate was like, Okay, fine, crucifixion, it is so, yeah, it is interesting to sort of look at, like the very high level involvement of church and state, as you say, like the Jewish powers in the region in a political sense, Jewish power in the region in a religious sense, and also the Roman powers in the region to this whole thing that’s happening. And

Dr G 27:29
the Romans, For all of their vaunted pragmatism, are a highly religious people themselves. So it’s not like they’re above any of that, no. And it’s just trying to figure out, from their perspective, how can they get the best leverage on a population that they’re seeking to control for their own ends? Yes. So I mean, in short, the answer to the question, What have the Romans ever done for people in the provinces? The answer is,

Dr Rad 27:54
not much. Ouch.

Speaker 1 27:56
It’s it’s devastating, and it is a process of sort of cultural wiping out over time. Yeah, it is imperialism in its very core form. Life of Brian. Definitely engage with that in really interesting ways. So, but

Dr Rad 28:11
before we get into that fully, I guess we have to obviously acknowledge that it is intended to be a satire. I have as a film scholar, I therefore have questions about, obviously, what do you do with something that’s not necessarily trying to be historically accurate, but is set in a historical period? Because, quite frankly, the men involved enjoy dressing up in costume.

Dr G 28:32
Well, you know, they saw an opportunity, and they really took it, yeah, but as

Dr Rad 28:36
you said before, I think this is where we obviously have to acknowledge like their goal is, obviously to produce a comedy that is what they are. They are a comedy troupe. And I kind of think that comedy is obviously one of those mediums that is naturally going to be taking risks, perhaps more than other formats, even tragedy. I think comedy kind of takes risk, and I think it also does, to a certain extent, obviously reflect the time in which it is made, because obviously people are going to find things funny that are relevant to their to their lives. I think kind of the genius of Monty Python is that some of their stuff has stood the test of time and that we still find it really funny. And I will go out and say, right now, I’m a huge fan of life for Brian, I think it is hysterical, in spite of the fact that I can obviously see there are certain things that may not have dated as well as others, but I still think overall, it’s a really funny film. But of course, like any movie, it reflects the time in which it was made and what was considered funny then. And also, I suppose what even is what was considered cutting edge back then. You can, you can see it, obviously, but that’s something I think is true of any film, yes, and

Dr G 29:39
I think you’re totally correct in terms of thinking about like context is so relevant. So there are some jokes in this film that would not fly today, I would think. And there are some moments that I think in hindsight if, for instance, John Cleese knew i. The future when he was making this film. Some of the some of the lines that he’s given in this script that he reproduces, I think, are really they’re foreshadowing of certain things that we see later in his life, and that, I think is quite interesting as well. I’m going to leave that a complete mystery. I’m not going to go.

Dr Rad 30:18
Are you going to tell me what these moments are. Well,

Dr G 30:22
look, let me see how I feel later on, we can return to that subject. So I don’t know about you, but I’ve gone through this film, and I’ve sort of gone chronologically, looking at ways that Romans and Rome is kind of represented, and thinking about what could that mean, and not thinking about necessarily the humor of it, because I don’t know that I, I am not worthy to comment on the humor of the film. And clearly they’re doing something which is ahistorical and a make believe fictional story set in a historical time period which obviously has all sorts of potential issues associated with it. So anything you might say could be dismissed. Yeah, look absolutely. But I have things to say nonetheless. I’m

Dr Rad 31:04
very happy to move in that direction. But before you start, I feel like there’s some filmy stuff that I’m going to use for additional context. So we’ve had some context now about Monty, Python, the group, I think we obviously have the context of the satirical nature of the film. And as you said, the satire is not even necessarily of life in the 30 CE in Judea, Monty, Python, in all of their historical films, and also in their TV show. As we said, it’s about British society at the time. So basically, they are plucking British characters out of the 1970s and plunking them in 30 CE. And you can see this in many, many ways, because that’s basically what all of their characters are. And these are some of my favorite moments, which I’m just going to mention in terms of examples. So you’ve got the liberal bureaucrat in Michael Palin, who’s organizing the crucifixion. Crucifixion, yes, one crossmeres down to the left.

Dr G 31:58
Next. Good, yeah, good, good. That

Dr Rad 32:02
is absolutely one of my most favorite moments in the entire film. You’ve also, of course, got the working class often represented in characters played by Eric Idle. They’re sort of cheeky, pulling everyone’s leg every moment. Oh, and also, again, one of my other favorite aspects is the way that Monty Python makes fun of the working class trade unions in the People’s Front of Judea, as well as the Judeans Popular Front and all those sorts of groups, as well as the style of bureaucrat that you see in like John Cleese’s high priest at the stoning, all of that kind of stuff. As well as the women. Obviously, they’re not huge characters, but they are there as well. And also, of course, in scenes like Sermon on the Mount, you can see it. I’m sure we’ll get into that in a bit of into that in a bit of detail, but in terms of the film context. So one thing I wanted to highlight in particular, because it’s not something that people from outside of Britain or British Dominions might be aware of, is that there is in British comedy a really strong tradition of drag, yes, yeah, as a style of comedy, which people might not be aware of. So I guess I flag that drag has a really big part in British music hall comedy, and that’s gonna say it’s a staple of pantomime. Yes, it’s still exactly and to this day it still is a really big thing. So that’s just something to be aware of in terms of where Monty Python is coming from in the way that they do their comedy and the way that they often have men obviously dressing up as women rather than getting women to play those particular parts. But in terms of feel more generally, I’m sure that anyone who’s listening to this podcast is aware of this. But just in case you’re not, here it goes. Obviously, by the time we get to 1979 when Life of Brian comes out, the golden age of epics has peaked and gone. But those films, I think, are still very much there in that people of that time period, like in the 1970s would be familiar with the big blockbusters of the 1950s in particular few in the early 60s. So for example, your Quo Vadis, you’re Ben Hur those sorts of big biblical epics. And Monty Python was certainly very aware of those films. And so I think there’s sometimes deliberately playing on or playing up to those biblical epics. I know that Terry Jones in particular, like basically sat in a room for a while and re watched a lot of those sorts of movies. And you can see that right from the get go in, that the nativity scene is definitely very similar to the nativity scene that you see in Ben Hur even the way that Terry Gilliam has illustrated the credits. It’s obviously a play on the types of credits that you get in even Spartacus, which is obviously like a weird kind of it’s not a biblical epic, but there are those weird Christian elements to it, as well as some of the other big blockbusters of the time, like Ben Hur and King of Kings. So you can definitely see them playing with that. And even the idea of having someone in this time period leading a parallel life to Jesus is obviously very famous from other movies like Ben Hur. That’s literally what Judah Ben Hur is often up to. You know he’s what I know he’s. His life is intersecting with the Christ as he goes. As we get out of the 1960s though, we’ve obviously seen like the collapse of the studio system in America, and we start to see slightly more irreverent films coming out about Ancient Rome in general. So you have in 1966 movies like A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. And as we move into the 1970s because the studio system has been truly dismantled by then, there is this brief period where you get a lot of, I suppose, what we would call more realistic films, like the audience wanting to see things that aren’t maybe so stage managed and escapist in nature, things that are more gritty, more about real life and real problems and that sort of thing. So you can obviously think of these are American examples, but you can think of movies like, you know, the godfather and Midnight Cowboy, Easy Rider, films that are more reflective, I suppose, of 60s and 70s culture in multiple facets, films that are dealing more with issues like race. Again, I am thinking of America here, but the influence, obviously, is out there that that’s the way film is going, as a sort of context for Life of Brian, gritty realism, yeah. Anyway, just that, I’d sort of say that the other thing that we can obviously see that’s very much influencing this film, in the credits, anyway, is James Bond, Brian. His name is Brian.

Dr G 36:22
Yeah. I thought it was a great Shirley Bassey. Impression

Dr Rad 36:24
it is. I actually thought, I actually checked, because I was like, Oh, my god, is this Shirley? I

Dr G 36:28
don’t think it is. It wasn’t, no, it

Dr Rad 36:29
was like, some 16 year old. Oh,

Dr G 36:31
wow, yeah, yeah, no, but I picked up that reference straight away. I was like, Oh yes, I see where this is going. But I do like starting with the opening credits. Yeah, there’s a few things that I quite enjoyed about them, in terms of nods to Rome. Some of them are the Christian references. So we get the giant head of Constantine, which is smashing through everything. He won’t be alive for another few 100 years. So he is out of place. Good for him, though, we also see the Mouth of Truth, the bocca della Verita, yeah. Okay, you know, just like an odd, quirky thing. And the original purpose of that piece is unclear, and so it’s set up in Rome, and most famously in Roman Holiday. I

Dr Rad 37:22
was gonna say, I think I can tell you what the purpose is. The purpose is to have a delightful moment between Audrey Hepburn and Gregory Peck in a reality comedy,

Dr G 37:31
Roman Holiday. Everybody, but that popularity of that particular stone, which we think might be the head of Neptune, maybe, but it has the open mouth, and it looks a bit like a theatrical mask as well. So the identification is not at all clear, and people line up to stick their hand in the thing and whatnot. And we think it might be related to the Temple of Hercules, which is across the way. Okay, yeah, just across the square. But the fact that it’s there, I think is cute. I mean, it’s ancient, but we don’t know from when, but it’s a very visual symbol of Rome. Yes, well, so I imagine this is something that,

Dr Rad 38:07
again, particularly by this time period, because, again, Roman Holiday we came out in the middle of the 1950s

Dr G 38:12
Yeah, exactly. So this is something that, like, even if you didn’t know much about Rome, you’d never been there, you would have recognized it. Presumably you get some nods also to the Arch of Constantine as it’s going along. And

Dr Rad 38:23
I was like, wait a minute, he was the first Christian.

Dr G 38:27
And then the other part that I really enjoyed, and I’m sorry, Tiberius, but it’s the Prima Porta Augustus just whacked in there, which is on trend. That’s fine. You could easily have run into a statue like that in this period, maybe not in Judea. To me, this is,

Dr Rad 38:45
again, this is like, one of those things where I’m like, okay, yes, if we’re being super accurate a lot of these things, you’re like, anachronistic, not the right setting at all. But it doesn’t matter with Monty Python, because they are anarchic in the way that they play with things. And so I kind of feel like it’s one of those things where it’s like, well, of course,

Dr G 39:02
well, I think that’s fine actually, because one of the things that I think comes across in this, and you’ve touched on it earlier, yeah, is that because of their university education, their humor is both absurdist and for some considered too highbrow, like the references are just out of touch. You have to have already known a whole bunch of things to get them, which might be the very reason why you and I quite enjoy these kinds of films, because it’s like, they’re kind of full of little easter eggs for people who have studied history and are aware of some of this stuff. Because I’m like, I understand that these things are that are out of touch, but I also recognize them, and I’m excited to have seen them, and I know that at some point they had to decide what was going to be in there. Yeah, you don’t become an illustrator and an animator without making really clear decisions about what’s included and what’s not included, and so those choices really matter. And I love the way that this opening credit sequence sets us up really nicely for what is both. Both a historical light touch for people who get it and absolutely bonkers for people who enjoyed the Absurdism of it.

Dr Rad 40:07
Yes, yeah, and that’s the thing, like Spartacus credits are so memorable with all the bits and pieces of sculpture and statuary. I mean, it was such a big film, people who were seeing this would mostly, I think, be very familiar with that particular thing. And so, yeah, the way that they take that and then twist it, yeah.

Dr G 40:29
This leads me to, I don’t really have much to say about the nativity scene, like, it’s fine, it does its job, but I was focusing on, like, Where do I see Romans? And so then I end up at Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, I

Dr Rad 40:39
would say I love the Nativity in the way that she’s like, well, what is he there?

Dr G 40:45
They’re like, Oh no. They take back all the gifts, and she’s like,

Dr Rad 40:47
Oh, wait, yeah, and the Virgin Mandy, I enjoy it. That’s, that’s, I suppose, one of those moments. So where we I can highlight something that would be considered problematic by these standards, but wasn’t considered maybe as problematic in the day is that there is a brief moment of blackface in that particular scene. There is. It’s very brief. And obviously it’s one of those things where, knowing Monty Python, it’s one of those things where I think it’s just because they play all the characters at the time, they wouldn’t have thought about it, whereas it might be different these days, obviously, in terms of both the makeup of the group, potentially, but also in how they would handle that kind of thing. But it’s one of those things where you could easily miss it because of the way that they’ve got the three wise men, yeah,

Dr G 41:29
the way the costumes are done. Yeah, yes, there is black face. So content warning, not ideal, to be honest, I’d

Dr Rad 41:35
actually never noticed it before, because their faces are so covered up, but because I was paying more attention, I suppose this time, I suddenly realized that, of course, it’s one of the Monty Python group who’s playing the three wise men. I just I’d never even thought about it before, because my attention is always on the Virgin panty.

Dr G 41:52
So Jesus’s servant on the mount. This is like the one time in this film where we we clock Jesus, the man himself.

Dr Rad 41:58
And I will note, it’s actually very unusual to have Jesus Christ shown directly in that when you think about again films like Ben Hur, they tend to avoid it just like a shaft of sunlight, yeah, like, like a hand, or, like, you see the back of his head, or something like that. A lot of these, he’s

Dr G 42:18
like a dentist. We can’t show his face on television.

Dr Rad 42:22
Nine out of 10 dentists recommend, but I don’t, because they’re owned by a company that does on animals. It happens, but it’s unusual, although, of course, again, there was kind of like a bit of a slew of Jesus stuff that was coming out at this point in time. The biggest hit, obviously, being Jesus Christ Superstar. So superstar. So it just depends what you’re looking at, I suppose. But Jesus Christ Superstar is something that people would have seen, obviously, in the theater. Okay?

Dr G 42:50
So he does make his appearance, and he’s going to increasingly make his appearance in cultural representation from this point onwards as well. So we do get to get a glimpse of Jesus. He is saying things that he is purported to have said, so they don’t change his script. But the real focus of this whole scene is what is essentially British class, absolutely infighting at its best, where right at the back of the crowd there is some quibbling going on about what is being said and then how it’s being said, and then people starting to insult each other in various particular ways. And you can tell who’s supposed to be the upper class, and you can tell who’s supposed to be middle class, and you can tell who’s supposed to be working class from the ways in which they engage with each other. Yeah,

Dr Rad 43:39
so we’ve got Mr. And Mrs. Gregory the upper class rather, rather.

Dr G 43:45
And I think what’s great is that there’s a lot of mishearing of the of the sermon itself. Blessed are the cheese makers? Okay, we got

Dr Rad 43:53
Mr. And Mrs. Big nose, who are meant to be like the up and coming middle class and then Mr. Cheeky working class. So in the bickering, as you say, there’s the mishearing of stuff, but funnily enough, it actually highlights something which is hugely relevant to historians, which is, where did the Gospels get their material? How reliable are eyewitnesses? Yeah,

Dr G 44:13
and this is a huge challenge, because as far as we can date the Gospels. So these are the four books which are considered to be interconnected with each other and accredited to different people, but seem to have been written together. Perhaps the earliest date that people can put to them is probably about the 70s and 80s. CE.

Dr Rad 44:34
I think even, I think even 60s has been given for one of them, just one of them. I think, I think Mark from memory, which

Dr G 44:40
we’re talking Well, after, oh, yeah, like a good generation or so

Dr Rad 44:44
absolutely. And that’s the earliest, as you say, in most people, earliest that

Dr G 44:48
people were willing to accept based on the evidence. Yeah. So if you can mishear things when you’re at the venue, in the moment, I mean, just think about when you’re out and about or you. Go somewhere and you’re like, Excuse me, or you’re like, you turn to the person they say that all the time, or you’re at an event and you turn to somebody like, what did they just say? And the amount of misreporting and the mishearing that happens, generally speaking, the idea that there’s some sort of coherency to these texts is perhaps the biggest question we should have

Dr Rad 45:20
absolutely and I mean, even I’ve actually read. I was reading in preparation for this. Some people who identify as Christian, who teach this kind of material, as in, like, teach about historical Jesus and that sort of thing. And even they were saying that Life of Brian also kind of highlights one of those things, which is, how on earth were the three wise men supposed to have followed a star to figure out what tiny little manger somebody was in. There obviously are elements to these stories which don’t make like a logical sense, and that’s not necessarily what they’re obviously meant to be doing, just the same way that life of Ryan isn’t meant to be providing a super historically accurate version of Judea. What do you mean? This

Dr G 46:03
is clearly what was going on. I mean, there are Roman soldiers in attendance at this sermon. So I think for me, this was the key part of the reason why I noted down this scene at all. Yeah, because they’re standing around and they’re just sort of glancing over their shoulder and shaking their heads while the class warfare plays itself out in the background, and they only start to intervene when it comes to a physical altercation, when people start trying to punch each other, and then they’re like, Okay, break it up. But

Dr Rad 46:32
I think that the hilarious thing, of course, is we start to see, obviously, that whole idea of it’s what people make of it that’s funny in that when they think they’ve heard Blessed are the cheese makers. They say, well, obviously they don’t just mean the cheese makers. They mean manufacturers of any sort of dairy product.

Dr G 46:51
It’s not meant to be taken literally,

Dr Rad 46:52
yeah, and all the classic ones, where we get a lot of classic lines, you know? Oh, Blessed are the meek. Oh, that’s nice, because they get so little, I have such a hard time.

Dr G 47:03
From there, I jump ahead to the stoning scene, which I think might be the next scene. Anyway, it

Dr Rad 47:07
is because, of course, the virgin Mandy and Brian, they decide,

Dr G 47:11
they decide to leave the sermon of the mountain because it is getting out of hand in the background with the fights that are happening. So they decide that they’re going to attend the local stoning instead. And wouldn’t you know that there’s a whole bunch of bureaucratic rules around Stoney, and it’s really quite unfortunate, because women are forbidden to participate. And what this has led to is an underground market for fake beards so women can dress up as men and then attend stonings. And I suppose the part of the humor here, which is, in a way, quite parallel to the way that ancient humor operated as well, if we think about Greek comedy, sure is that we’ve got Monty Python, a male comedic troupe dressing up as women who are dressing up as men to attend stoning. So the layers upon layers of this kind of the drag, meta drag moments that are happening here, I

Dr Rad 48:14
think it allows the voices to be funnier, because then they can do the whole high pitched imitation of a woman. Are

Dr G 48:21
they ready with women here. Apologies. I mean, if you’re listening, I mean, we’re obviously just doing the film as we’re doing it as we analyze. So this puts me in mind of the way that ancient Greek comedy often sets up some of these things, and certainly, if we think about English traditions of comedy as well, this is very much something that Shakespeare would have lent into as well. Definitely the way in which characters try to hide their identity, by assuming the dress of another gender and then having to maybe go into hiding again, all of this kind of thing we have seen. It’s very English and in that sense, also very ancient. So I quite enjoyed that aspect of this scene. I note that there are some Roman soldiers there as well. They don’t seem to be quite as impressive as some of the other Centurions. They seem to be more low level infantry, and they just watch as the crowd eventually turns on the priest who is leading the stoning,

Dr Rad 49:25
which, and this is, I think, one of the things that I sort of lighted on as being the funny moment, because I love John Cleese’s priest. But again, the humor is so much that he is meant to be a kind of British bureaucrat slash schoolmaster type of figure in the way that he deals with the crowd, oh, there’s always one, and making sure that rules are being followed and that sort of thing. The way that he is dressed is very anachronistic. The idea of a stoning actually even taking place, is very debatable in terms of historical accuracy. It might seem like something you. SPECT in a biblical era film, but it is actually really uncertain whether such things would have been taking place in Jesus’s time. There’s like these weird references where it’s almost like they’re talking about stoning, but it’s almost like, are they saying that zonings actually happen? Or is this or are they just making a reference, because could maybe happen. It’s very unclear, but yeah, definitely highly debatable, but the fact that he is wearing something that’s so overly religious, again, kind of taps into criticisms that are made of certain Jewish groups in this society, of trying to advertise their piety, perhaps by wearing particular types of clothing. So I believe the Pharisees are sometimes critiqued by other Jewish people for overly advertising their dedication to religion and the type of clothing that they wear. So even though it’s anachronistic, it kind of potentially is highlighting that about this particular character. Yeah,

Dr G 50:55
and certainly, I think when we think about religious dress, there is a sense in the ancient world and even today, that the visual distinction is one of the ways in which you establish the authority of the Church, regardless of which church it might be. So style of dress and being visually recognizable from a distance is super important. And John Cleese is a tall man, and he’s wearing a very tall hat in this scene, which makes him even taller than he needs to be. So he definitely does stand out. So I’m

Dr Rad 51:25
guessing that your next scene that you liked was, of course, the children’s matinee.

Dr G 51:29
So in the lead up to that, though, yeah, I mean, yes, definitely the children’s matinee at the arena, which is a horrifying sort of take on, like, what is gladiatorial combat and the games of the hunt and things like that, as if they might be okay for children while people are dragging bits of meat out of the arena. But important in the lead up to this moment is the moment that Brian understands that his father is a Roman Ah,

Dr Rad 51:55
yes, okay, see, I didn’t think you’d talk about this one because there are no Roman characters present until, but till the end, it does become

Dr G 52:04
important later on, so as a Roman reference, but also like that happens in their home. So they and there is a Roman there. That’s true, yeah, they return home from the stoning and find that there is a Roman Centurion in their house. Brian’s bit put out by that, and his mom’s like, well, you know, maybe you shouldn’t be so worried about those sorts of things, because maybe your dad was a Roman so this is like an earth shattering revelation for Brian to learn that his father was a man called Nautius Maximus, and he understood understands in that moment that perhaps his life isn’t what he thought it was. It certainly calls into question, what has ever what was happening in the nativity scene with the Virgin mangy? Yes,

Dr Rad 52:54
well, even his name. I mean, I didn’t actually know this, but the last name Cohen, whilst it is quite a common name. Now, for people who have Jewish backgrounds, it actually indicates priest like, if you have the last name Cohen, your ancestors, presumably at one point, were from one of the priestly families. So it’s obviously not only a common Jewish name nowadays, which I’m sure is what they were playing on a little bit there, but it also has this connection to a very special group within that Jewish community that were setting this movie in and Brian was just chosen because, apparently that was the name that the Monty Pythons like to give to anyone who was seen as being very ordinary and kind of a bit stupid. Well,

Dr G 53:34
his character does live up to that in some respects. So he finds out his father is Nautius Maximus, and this puts him into a little bit of a tailspin. He makes a quip about his nose being Roman, and me like that. Explains

Dr Rad 53:53
I’m a Hebe, a Kike, a Red Sea pedestrian.

Dr G 53:58
And so, you know, he has this realization which frustrates him. It doesn’t really he doesn’t seem fixated beyond the fact that he’s noticed that there’s a Roman Centurion there because he wanders off because he’s now he’s got his own existential issues to deal with. But it turns out that his mother is also entertaining the Roman troops in a sexual way, perhaps, and she does make the point that they perhaps owe more to the Romans than he realizes, yeah, and he doesn’t seem to clock what that means, no, but the audience is allowed to see through that sort of veil and get a sense that this is a difficult life for her, yes, and that the Romans are part of the oppressive structures that she is navigating personally, while the province of Judea is navigating at large. Yes, absolutely. So yes, that leads us to the arena my favorite.

Dr Rad 54:53
So the subtitle children’s matinee is obviously, again, a play on something from British culture. Yeah. Dear the children’s madness that we provided pantomimes and theater and that sort of thing. I actually love this, though, because you do tend to get, I think, quite glorified, obviously, images of the arena in your more traditional epics. And this is kind of looking at, well, what happened when it was just an ordinary Saturday?

Dr G 55:21
And it’s like the arena isn’t particularly full. There are Brian’s there trying to sell some snacks, which, uh, he’s told that they’re just Roman tat.

Dr Rad 55:32
But again, even, like, even the types of things that he’s trying to sell, like the the wolf sniffles and that kind of stuff that, again, is kind of a play on the main evidence that we have of Roman food, which is typically by the elite, for the elite. So they are these ridiculous delicacies that we have preserved for us. And we, when we look at the recipe thing, we’re like, Oh my God. What you know the Romans love to think of all these new kind of delicacies, which, similarly to these days, I suppose, had to do with what was rare, what was hard to procure, and and so they did kind of eat sometimes things that we would look at as being absurd, but that would have been the very, very elite who were all caught up in this desire to impress one another. The average person would have been eating far more basic but

Dr G 56:23
I do like the idea that it’s playing into the idea of stadium culture and the sort of snacking that goes on there. But the arena is like the original Stadium in this sense. And so it makes sense that if you’re there and you’re out in the sun and you’ve been there for a few hours, you’re probably peckish, yeah, it would not be beyond imagination that nobody would be trying to sell you

Dr Rad 56:45
some just maybe not quite the fair that Brian is selling. But yeah, this

Dr G 56:49
is a super important scene for Brian, though, because it’s when he finally gets to meet the People’s Front of Judea love, and he’s already seen one of the members, at least when he was at the sermon of the mount, and because he spied Judith off in the distance, and was kind of like, and she was engaged in a very sort of intellectual conversation with another member of the group, yes,

Dr Rad 57:14
where they ridiculing my Jesus.

Dr G 57:18
And he’s seen her, he’s taking a look at her and being like, I’ve got a crow. And so it’s in this moment that he gets to meet her, because members of this group are attending the arena, mostly to criticize it and to lampoon people that they’ve exiled from their group or have defected to a different group. Spears, all of these people seem to be swilling around this idea that in order to get out from under the oppression of the Romans, they need to find a way to eliminate the powerful structures at play that are ruining the province so they can claim it back as their own.

Dr Rad 57:57
And this is the kind of thing that I like about Monty Python, because they’re making fun of every single class that they come across. So they make fun of the working class, they make fun of the middle class, they make fun of the upper class like no one is off limits because it’s really about institutions and authority that they are. That’s who they’re taking aim at really a lot of the time. So but I do, I just love their take on the trade unions. You’re like, you have to really hate the Romans to join our group, but I do,

Dr G 58:25
all right, we’re in and so this is the moment that Brian, you know, joins one of these groups, and he’s led into a new world. And this is on the back of him finding out about his own Roman heritage. So he’s running away from that in some respects, and fighting against it. And can he prove to himself, you know, how loyal he is to the local cause? Yeah, and

Dr Rad 58:50
this is, this is where we get into that interesting conversation, I suppose, about the presence of Rome in this area. So it’s hard to completely, I think, understand Jesus’s death at this distance, particularly because, as we talked about, the Gospels are written sometime after and they’ve obviously got a very particular agenda in mind. Even the Roman sources that mention Jesus Christ are again written a couple generations later, decades later. So whilst I definitely believe that there was a person who identifies as Jesus, it’s really hard to know I think exactly what was happening, but I don’t necessarily think that, as I said to before, I think it’s there’s often a lot of factionalism in this area, and there’s a lot of internal tension. And actually, I feel like it’s some time later that we get more anti Roman, more widespread anti Roman sentiment. And even then, it’s not universal and it’s not unified. I’m sort of thinking of in the sort of 60s and 70s, where we get the first udayan revolt. That’s when we tend to see really anti Roman sentiment springing up. But it’s not universal in Jesus’s lifetime. I’m not really sure. And I’m not an expert in this period, obviously, but I’m not really sure how widespread the anti. Roman sentiment would have been. It flares up a little bit under Caligula, because Caligula is a bit of a douche towards towards certain things that they hold dear. But otherwise, I’m really not, I’m not sure.

Dr G 1:00:09
I think this gets into the broader question of the history of the whole region, and so I’m not going to give too much away about something that comes up later in the film. I think we’re almost there, yeah, sure. But having thought about like we think about the layered history of this region, yes. And this area, broadly, what is now known as the Middle East, is considered, in many respects, cradle of civilization. This is where we understand agrarian culture to develop in a profound way. What about 6000 6000 7000 years ago? So this is an area that has always been populated. It has always had a multitude of societies. And this group that sits along this eastern edge of the Mediterranean are known for being traders. So the Punic peoples come from the Phoenician peoples. Yeah, the Phoenicians are just to the north of this region. But it’s not the case that the people to the south are not also traders. They are plenty of archeological evidence to suggest that there are social structures at play, that there is trading at play, that they are very involved in the broader Mediterranean community in which they sit. The Romans are just another player within this in that respect. So the idea that the Romans are necessarily terrible depends very much on how the Romans are behaving,

Dr Rad 1:01:44
and sometimes they can be behaving in ways that works for the people that live in that region.

Dr G 1:01:50
And in this time period, we are not yet at the conquest of the area by the Romans. No, we are certainly at a period of high levels of influence by Rome? Yeah, definitely. They’re doing some imperialism, for sure, sure, but they are not necessarily trying to wipe people out. No, and they do not have full control of this area, no,

Dr Rad 1:02:13
and that’s exactly it, like there’s and they’re not going to for quite some time. No, that’s what I mean. Like, I feel like there’s it. There’s more tension between various groups in this area. And I don’t just mean within Judea. I mean also more wider

Dr G 1:02:27
this whole area is, is complex already, the part of which we suffer from, I think, as historians who specialize in Rome, is that we are not Near Eastern specialists, and there are Near Eastern specialist, and we should get some of them on the show. We should talk about that region, because there is a lot going on here, and this, this film, is kind of touching on some of it. And I think maybe inadvertently, because I’m not sure how much Monty Python I know about some of I

Dr Rad 1:03:00
think they did a lot of research, but it’s the kind of material that they would have access to in the 1970s it’s obviously different scholarship, different time, and I don’t know how deep and they were influenced, definitely, I think, by more medieval things as well, like medieval passion plays as well as, obviously contemporary stuff. But even, I think, in terms of understanding this area, one of our major sources to sort of focus on relations between the people of this area and the Romans is, of course, Josephus. And Josephus is notoriously a hugely problematic source because he was someone who was captured by the Romans, or so he claims, during the first Judean revolt, and ends up becoming associated with flavians, because they are, of course, involved in the more troublesome time in Judea, with the first the destruction of the temple. Yeah, they are, and then they be, but then at around the same time that that happens, they obviously also become the next Imperial dynasty, everyone which allows them to allows them to control narrative somewhat. And Josephus is their client. He becomes like a Freedman of their family. And so his loyalties are all over the shop, all over the shop, and it’s so complex, like, it’s not to say that he’s like, Oh well, I’m I’m with the Romans. Now, he definitely doesn’t, but it’s so hard to tease out at any one moment what is going on in Josephus account of things, yeah,

Dr G 1:04:26
and his work is really important for our understanding of what is happening in this sort of Flavian period. And again, it’s that sort of thing where it’s like our sources just outside of the timeline, yes, that we’re interested in, like he does refer back to this period of history in the region totally, but it’s also the case that he wasn’t necessarily compos mentis there, no,

Dr Rad 1:04:49
and he’s also Jewish. He’s not Christian, so Jesus is going to mean something different to him. Anyways, yeah, it’s just a very, very complicated source to use. And. Yeah. Well, we

Dr G 1:05:01
love our complexities. We do. This leads us to the Latin scene.

Dr Rad 1:05:05
Okay. Now this is a scene that I laugh at whilst crying, as I have had so many, so many issues of Latin over the years.

Dr G 1:05:13
So I think one of the things that came out maybe on Twitter a few years ago, was like, you can tell the difference between a classic student and an ancient history student from their favorite from their favorite scene in Life of Brian. Yes, because the classic students will pick the Latin scene and the ancient historians will pick, well, What have the Romans ever done for us 100%

Dr Rad 1:05:33
and I am 100% true to that. The What have the Romans ever done for us is my favorite, but

Dr G 1:05:38
the Latin scene really does some special things. And I think it does some special things for classic students in particular, because it basically replicates the British education system for teaching classics to students at that time. Yes, yeah, in that moment. And so the play seems to be that Brian is put up to this moment by the People’s Front of Judea. They’re like, You got to prove your loyalty you want to be part of this group, you know, you’ve got to go and write a message on the Roman palace. Romans go home. Yeah. So Romanos

Dr Rad 1:06:12
ahaan rocks

Dr G 1:06:17
up and he’s he’s painting in big red letters. Romanes eunt domus and it’s kind of like twilight. He doesn’t realize that some Roman soldiers are marching up behind him, and they kind of watch him, and then they start correcting his grammar. They’re like, people call the Romans, They go to the house? and I was like, What are you doing? And then it goes through all of this thing where they’re trying to basically inculcate the rules, you know, like, you know, will it be accusative, you know, to place, it’s the locative, you know, blah, blah, blah, on all of these sort of like crazy grammatical terms, which you would only ever encounter if you had had to study Latin. Yes, it ends up being that they end up changing the phrase to Romani ite domum. Romans go home, and then they tell him that he has to paint it 100 times, which is one of those sort of classics of like the school system, where it’s kind of like you now have this really repetitive, boring task on your hands, and he does do it, like he takes him all night, but he Brian finishes this task. But you do get that sense that the play here is on the importance of form over everything else. This idea then gets linked to this Roman fetish for mindless punishment, which is something that runs through this whole film as well. And then as soon as Brian completes this task, it’s like there’s been a changeover of the group, and new guards show up. Don’t realize that this has been a task that has been set by the Romans to Brian. Look at what he’s written on the wall, and it’s huge, and it’s all over it, and then he has to run away very, very quickly to get himself out of trouble,

Dr Rad 1:07:58
yeah. Which I think, as you say, this perfectly highlight the educational background of the Monty Python group and the way that they would have had to study Latin because of the type of school they went to, which, again, is kind of interesting, because in the 60s, there had been a big shake up of the British education system, and there were definitely people that by the time that They, I suppose, were going through their education, there were definitely schools that were breaking with the tradition of having to learn Latin, and that was maybe seen as something a little bit old fashioned. But the Monty Python group, because the nature of their education, definitely would have had to learn Latin and learn it this way. And in fact, it wasn’t just trying to think when they would have been at university. I suspect that for a lot of them, they actually would have had to have studied Latin in order to get into the universities

Dr G 1:08:45
that they went to. So I assume so as well. And it’s pretty clear from the way that this scene is done, that they understand Latin, yes.

Dr Rad 1:08:52
And you’re like, okay, that I never will,

Dr G 1:08:56
and that they have been educated in very particular way about it. Yes, exactly. So the idea that they’re giving that experience to Roman soldiers in itself is quite funny, absolutely. Yeah, so the People’s Front of Judea, my favorite. I don’t know if you’re gonna like what I have to say about them. So these are just one of the many groups, the PJ, PFJ, as they’re known, one of the many groups seeking to liberate the area from Roman control and oppression, which

Dr Rad 1:09:27
is what I think I find so funny about it, because it taps into what I think is accurate to this period. The factionalism might not have been in this exact way, and it might not necessarily been directly anti Roman, but I think the factionalism is kind of oddly accurate.

Dr G 1:09:39
Yeah, definitely. And I think we can see this in many movements where it’s like, you can have broadly similar goals and yet be pursuing it in very different ways. Absolutely, yes. And certainly there are times and I think this happens, particularly you see it in online culture, where the discussion is around. And leftist groups being more challenging to each other than they are to tackling the cause itself. Yes, and this kind of thing can be a real hindrance to getting things done. Absolutely. The People’s Front of Judea sits in this category really quite nicely. Yeah, they spend a lot of time talking and writing notes and minutes and whatnot. They have a plan to kidnap the wife of Pontius Pilate. That’s their plan. They’re going to enter through the underground heating system the hypercoast. Good on them. I quite like that. So you know, they’re playing into like, what do we know about what the Romans had? And then we get to What have the Romans ever done for us? Now I

Dr Rad 1:10:41
think I think I know what you’re going to say about this scene. Wow, I’m

Dr G 1:10:44
going to say it, and then you can tell me whether your assumption was correct. Okay, this is the classic justification of imperialism. I

Dr Rad 1:10:51
knew you were going to say that. Yeah, you’re right. It’s not accurate to the situation in this area. It’s

Dr G 1:10:57
not accurate to the situation, and it’s hugely problematic. And what we have is the English playing the oppressed people and then selling back to them the idea that they were civilized by the arrival of their oppressors. This is British imperialism writ large in a single scene, which is ironic in its placement in this film. And I don’t know that Monty Python necessarily are aware of it. Well,

Dr Rad 1:11:29
I think they probably are now. I think the thing is that, again, this is where context, I think, is important. I think what people broadly would have thought about Rome and the Roman Empire back in that time when they were making this film, is that they would have looked at Rome as the great civilisers As much as we might question that critique it now that’s with the benefit of over 40 years of hindsight and new scholarship and also people looking into things from the point of view of the people that do live in the provinces, looking at the archeology that comes out of that area, not privileging the Roman perspective. You know, there’s a lot that has happened in the last 50 years of academia that has enabled us to look at that scene and recognize that it’s not accurate that the Romans did not invent aqueducts, that there were roads before they came, and all of that kind of stuff. What I wouldn’t like. I obviously haven’t looked into it in the sense of saying there definitively was no academia out there that could possibly have disproven this. But I do think that I know enough to say that widely speaking, I feel like the point of view would have been way more positive in terms of imperialism, and Roman imperialism in particular, but that’s, that’s the way I kind of look at it. Yeah, I

Dr G 1:12:48
think there’s an interesting parallel to be drawn between the way that British imperialism justifies itself and the way that we now have British people justifying Roman imperialism within the context of this film. So I think that’s an interesting point of note. So the things that get mentioned as benefits of what the Romans have done for us, aqueducts, roads, medicine, sanitation, irrigation, education, wine, public baths and law and order. Now, objectively speaking, all of these are incorrect. Just as a point of note, all of these things predated Rome in the area,

Dr Rad 1:13:31
and Rome was not particularly sanitized. I mean, like sure they would have, they had certain aspects of their culture which may have been more hygienic than otherwise at that time in other places. But certainly, when you think about things like the bars, I think they would have just been germ soup. I was

Dr G 1:13:49
gonna say, are you calling into question my beloved cloacker maxima, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:13:53
sure. They had certain things like the aqueducts, which they adopted. I mean this. And this is the thing about the Romans. I think the thing about the Romans I think the thing about the Romans is that a little bit like America, I suppose, oh, that parallel again, they’re very good, I think, at adopting things and then rolling them out. They adopt things and because they ended up having control over wide amounts of territory, they can organize, like mass manpower, for example, or whatever, in order to build these things or create this infrastructure. It’s not that they came up with the original idea, and it may not be that they’re the only ones doing it, but once they’re in charge, I feel like they are relatively good sometimes at rolling it out when it’s in in their interest to do so to like, have an aqueduct or have a theater? Yeah.

Dr G 1:14:41
So I mean, notably, if we’re going to give the Romans any credit in this region, and we can, I suspect it is the fact that under Herod, there was an aqueduct constructed into the port city of Caesarea, Maritima, Caesar’s maritime port. And the reason for that is that there was no access to fresh water at that location, and there was still evidence of that ancient aqueduct, which was then sort of enhanced a few generations later. So that exists. So, yes, I mean, we could say that, you know, they brought some aqueducts, yeah, but they

Dr Rad 1:15:19
didn’t. They didn’t invent aqueduct. They didn’t invent paved rows. They did not invent wine. Law and order. I certainly did not

Dr G 1:15:26
invent wine. And arguably, it’s more likely that this region invented wine and irrigation. This is

Dr Rad 1:15:35
what I mean. I think the Romans are kind of like the inheritors, in the sense that they’re bringing the infrastructure, I suppose it’s in like, the ability to act on it at that moment in time, yeah.

Dr G 1:15:45
And so I suppose this is the idea of the increasingly militaristic influence of Rome in this area, yeah. And the fact that they’ve decided to go in, and people have not yet been able to throw them out or to throw them off. We

Dr Rad 1:16:00
obviously don’t know what would have been here if the Romans weren’t here. That’s not to say that the people in this area were incapable of doing such projects without the Romans. I just think it’s the Roman army, Roman slavery. Those systems mean that you can potentially have these large scale building projects, as sad as that is,

Dr G 1:16:24
indeed. And so they the PFJ decide that they’re going to enter through the Caesar Augustus Memorial. Sewer, excellent. And I do really love the scene where we get the footage of them entering, and it’s like they come through a floor mosaic lifting up a little leaf that’s covering somebody’s private parts. The Romans wouldn’t have bothered to have a leaf there in the mosaic. They would have just left it open. So that was a cute little nod, I think as well.

Dr Rad 1:16:52
See, this is where I love the kind of non Roman stuff, in a sense. So I love the fact that they encounter rival groups and they start fighting each other rather than concentrating on the task.

Dr G 1:17:03
Oh, yeah. So, I mean, the PFJ managed to run into this rival liberation group who have happy to dance people front, yeah, who have happened to have the same plan to execute on the same evening. Absolutely hilarious. And they all managed to kill each other inside the villa, and Brian’s the last one left standing when the Roman soldiers notice that anybody has infiltrated.

Dr Rad 1:17:28
And this, of course, brings us, I suppose, to one of the most notorious scenes, which is the Pontius Pilate scene. Oh,

Dr G 1:17:35
we’re calling it that, are we? I call it the biggest sticker scene. That’s right, yeah. I really liked this scene. I feel like I have an academic paper to write, because this scene is full of frescoes.

Dr Rad 1:17:48
Ah, okay, that’s what caught your eye. See, I was, as usual, very focused on Michael Palin, who is probably my favorite of the pythons. He is very good, and this is perhaps with his loose

Dr G 1:18:01
one of his star turns in this film as the most objectionable Roman, Pontius Pilate. And so Brian, having been arrested by the Roman guards and doing a bit of a tour of the jail, gets brought before Pontius Pilate himself. And this is where, in order to try and avoid punishment, Brian reveals his half Roman identity, yes. And he’s like, Well, my father is Nautius Maximus, at which point the Roman guard is like, convinced that this is a joke name. And Pontius Pilate is like, what are you talking about? And this leads the guard to say, well, you know, it’s a, it’s a joke name, like Biggus Dickus, or, yeah, and Pontius Pilate is like, Excuse me, because Dickus is a great friend of mine. And this scene is just, it plays out for like, you know, a good while. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:18:56
it’s the accent that sells it as well, the way that Pontius Pilate has this absurd list. And of course, when we eventually meet him, bigger stickers will have an even more exaggerated speech impediment. And the lyric thing, of course, is that nobody can understand him, not even the Romans.

Dr G 1:19:12
Yeah, so people keep responding back to him as if he’s asked a different question. Which,

Dr Rad 1:19:16
Look, I get that because of someone who’s hard of hearing. I do do that sometimes, where I respond completely inappropriately, because I have 100% miss her what someone said to

Dr G 1:19:24
me, the joys of this podcast. So what is happening in the background with these frescoes is that they can be cross referenced quite distinctly to frescoes from the villa of mysteries. Oh, actually, you

Dr Rad 1:19:41
know what? I did notice that. I actually did notice it, and I totally forgot, you’re right, the red like the red, the red ones like so the red ones, the ones with the predominantly red color in the background.

Dr G 1:19:53
You know those red fresh skirts.

Dr Rad 1:19:56
But no, like it is the red color, the red background. Is what makes them so distinctive to me. And it’s

Dr G 1:20:02
not just the red background, it’s the fact that they’ve replicated key panels from that fresh Yeah. So yeah, I’ve started to go through and collate the parallels visually from the villa of mysteries for my own edification. Yeah, hi. I paused the film

Dr Rad 1:20:23
research. Hello, pot. It’s kettle here. Hi.

Dr G 1:20:29
So what I like about this is one it suggests that somebody on set knew enough. So this is like a little easter egg for people who know enough. Well, this

Dr Rad 1:20:40
would be where it would be curious for you, because I don’t know enough about the set design to know this. But as I said before, they did make use of the sets that were there for the TV series that have just been made. But I know that they what they describe the processes that they built their sets into those sets. So it would be interesting whether that was a set that already existed, or whether it was something that they, as you like, that they made their own. Yeah,

Dr G 1:21:06
yeah. So it makes me think I’m gonna have to go and watch what Zeffirellis. Yep, definitely go and have a watch. So, I mean, part of me thinks maybe not in zephyrellis, partly does seem too common, partly because the villa of mysteries is from Pompeii, so maybe doesn’t make a lot of sense, but also because of the potential time period and dating of these frescoes. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that was besides the things that are very funny about this scene, which I enjoy. It’s one of my favorites. I did get distracted with my Roman historian hat on,

Dr Rad 1:21:46
so I believe that there is a very random scene that comes after this one, which is, of course, the alien sequence. Oh,

Dr G 1:21:54
yes. Well, I didn’t include any notes on that because I was like, there were no Romans. Well, Brian

Dr Rad 1:21:59
is being pursued by the Romans, I guess in this chase sequence. Now, I’ve heard various explanations for this. So 1979 that’s around the time that Star Wars is coming out. So it’s possible that they’re referencing like, the, you know, mania for science fiction. I have heard that the pythons just didn’t know how to get Brian out of this situation where he’s like, running up a very tall building find someone working on the top of it and really can’t figure out how to get down. Instead of decided just to insert this. I also read an academic who felt that it was a play on a book and documentary which came out of Germany, and then, I think, was adapted into English, the Chariots of the Gods, showing the aliens sort of interfering with life on Earth. I’ve also heard that it’s meant to be some sort of allusion to Brian’s ascension. Oh,

Dr G 1:22:53
yes. I mean to me, that makes the most sense. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:22:56
yeah. So to be honest, there are so many explanations of what is going on in here. I have to admit, I kind of would go with the Python explanation of they just didn’t know how else to get him out of here. Well, I

Dr G 1:23:07
mean, part of me finds that hard to believe. I mean, they put him there, I guess so.

Dr Rad 1:23:11
But yeah, it could. It could have been a play, obviously, on the idea of Jesus being taken into the heavens. This is Brian’s moment to do that. And of course, it happens in a ridiculous fashion, as everything does in Brian’s life, as opposed to Jesus’s life,

Dr G 1:23:25
certainly. And I mean, the key thing for Brian, I guess, and for the film, is that he does escape set back down in a slightly different location, which allows him to get back to Matthias’ house. Now, Matthias’ house, is where the People’s Front of Judea meet, yes,

Dr Rad 1:23:44
and hides so well.

Dr G 1:23:47
And unfortunately, it seems like the guards are just close enough to Brian to spot which house he goes into, which causes all sorts of trouble.

Dr Rad 1:23:57
And there is a very tiny scene, which I do appreciate, though, when the Romans are like, storming into the house, and you see, like, 1000 Roman soldiers storm fast into this tiny, little house.

Dr G 1:24:06
Yeah. And I like, I do enjoy this sequence, because I think it gives us a sense of one how much Rome does. Rome things where you’re like, okay, just always send all of the guards all the time. And it’s like, this is how they managed to dominate everybody. It’s through this sheer numbers. Yeah, impressive numbers. Yeah. And it also seems to be a play on the classic sort of, how many clowns can you fit in a car kind of joke? Exactly. Matthias house is not that large, and there are many men running into it.

Dr Rad 1:24:40
I love it.

Dr G 1:24:41
So this leads me, from a Roman historian perspective, I suppose, straight to the crucifixion. Okay, you’re

Dr Rad 1:24:52
gonna skip right over the nude scene and the he’s just, he’s not the Messiah. He’s just a naughty boy.

Dr G 1:24:57
It’s got nothing to do with the Romans. Oh. Haha, by all means. I mean, now’s your chance.

Dr Rad 1:25:03
Obviously, that this is one of my other favorite scenes. It’s also obviously gives us one of the most well known quotes, I think, from the scene. And the thing I’ve the reason why I find it interesting, and I thought you might as well, is that it’s probably the most woman heavy, even though the women in question is, in fact, Terry Jones Indra, but it kind of did maybe think about things a bit differently here. So basically, Judith and Brian hook up at this moment in time, and we get very big full frontal nudity from both Brian and Judith in this scene. But to be honest again, this is where I feel like Monty Python and just say general measles. Saying they kind of are maybe unintentionally accurate. Number one, I kind of think the way that they’re just so at ease with being nude in like a small space in a family situation. I think that kind of is how people would have had to have been in the ancient world, you know, just more at ease with nudity, more used to bodily functions and things happening around them. I think the the dirtiness of this world, the you know, the smallness of this world, you know that like the way that the average person lives, I think is actually kind of more accurate than the gleaming marble we tend to see in a lot of Roman epics. But I do also like the way that they are, again, playing up with a character that’s probably more familiar to modern audiences, in that the way that Brian and his mother have a relationship. It does seem to be playing on the trope of maybe the Jewish mother, the way that she’s disapproving, that sort of thing which we see in modern shows like The Nanny, that line coming out of that depiction of, again, like a very modern character, but put in an ancient world, definitely.

Dr G 1:26:40
And the the way in which that this is like the the climactic point for the Messianic journey, exactly

Dr Rad 1:26:51
so funny, the way that the crowd, and this is where we see the crowd reacting in ways where the pythons are making fun of prophets springing up and preaching on corners, and the way people are responding to them, and the way that Brian’s like, just think for yourself. This is essentially the message of Life of Brian, as far as the pythons were concerned. It’s about thinking for yourself. Yeah,

Dr G 1:27:12
so to backtrack slightly, how did Brian even get here? So the Roman troops went into Matthias’ house. Brian was trying to hide, but he was hiding on a little balcony outside. That balcony eventually gave way, and he ended up standing on a strip of various other sort of wise prophets who were sort of promulgating a crowd. So it’s a bit like people are on their soapbox and people are gathering around, you know, the person who’s talking, who they think is most interesting? Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:27:40
with my favorite one of and there shall be a time where all things will be lost, and the little bits and pieces will be very hard to find. And Brian

Dr G 1:27:50
ends up in this situation. He’s knocked somebody off their plinth. Now he’s in front of a crowd, and he starts sort of making some stuff up. And there are some biblical references in there, stuff that has been attributed. And then he sort of trails off because he’s really waiting for that coast to be clear of the Romans, to be able to get back into the house and all of that. So once he sees that the moment has arrived, he just sort of trails off and doesn’t reveal anything. And it’s the mystery that is set up by him not finishing a sentence that prompts people to start to follow him, because they want to know what the message is, yes, which, when he was completing his sentences was of no real interest to any of them, but because they can’t and they don’t know what is the next thing he’s going to say, they become obsessed with him. Start following him around. Anyway, he ends up with this huge crowd around him, and when he wakes up the next morning at mum’s place with Judith, he is unprepared for how many people are outside his house. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:28:52
but the crowd scene, the interaction between Brian and the crowd and the Virgin Mandy and the crowd, is just hilarious. The whole idea of Yeah, thinking for yourselves, doing your own thing. And they’re all like, yes, we’re all individuals. I love it, and I kind of love to be as well. A bit later on, not not too long before the crucifixion scene, we also see, obviously, like the fetishizing of objects associated with Brian, the gourd and the sandal. And the way that you you see factions forming around these two different objects, which is exactly the kind of stuff you see happening in Christianity in real life. I mean, this is, you know what? Relics, 101, yeah, but, but also the idea that, like, tiny details about the faith are what cause factions to form within Christianity, and leads to a lot of bloodshed, to be honest, in the later Roman Empire, as people are fighting for their particular brand of Christianity and their particular interpretation of things, which I think is what still rings true, because obviously we still see that factionalism between Christian groups. It might not be quite as extreme, but we certainly still see different and not just Christianity. Obviously in other religions as well, there are obviously different groups which are sprung up, and we still see infighting between those groups. And that, again, is one of those things that I think is just kind of timeless, even the absurdity of the kind of ascetic that Brian accidentally knocks out of his hole, which, again, is kind of, I feel like an allusion to the Desert Fathers. I feel like there has to be an illusion. I

Dr G
feel like it must be, yeah, he gets very upset. The poor man who’s been out in the desert in his little hole for a long time keeping silent and eventually makes a sound, because Brian accidentally steps on his foot or

Dr Rad
something. But that’s exactly the kind of his vow of silence is over. Yeah. That’s exactly the kind of extreme esthetic behavior we end up seeing a bit later, I was gonna

Dr G
say they just this is a historical as far as where or where from, from a Christian perspective, certainly those sorts of figures don’t start to pop up until we’re in the depths of sort of like Christian belief on the rise.

Dr Rad
Totally. The things that they do are pretty extreme, pretty extreme, yeah, when they get to them, yeah, yes, now is not the time. No, all right, the crucifixion, the crucifixion, just one crossbears, yeah,

Dr G
well, you’ve alluded to it already. I really, I do love this, this sort of like the the empathetic bureaucrat, yeah, next crucifixion, good, out the door, line of the left one cross each next crucifixion, good, sort of plays out. And I was like, oh, there’s that sense in which you can also see the character, the bureaucrat here, sort of getting to the point where they’re kind of like, Oh no, that’s, that’s not okay. You know that has to do their job anyway, yeah, and just keeps doing their job. And this feeds in nicely to something that happens to Brian later, where he says to one of the Roman guards, as they’re putting his cross up, you don’t have to take orders. The guard immediately replies, I like orders. And I think for you, this is the moment where we also get the beautiful reference to Spartacus. Yes,

Dr Rad
absolutely, yes.

Dr G
And so as it turns out, one of the scenes that’s playing against this scene is that we’re back with bigger stickers and conscious

Dr Rad
who, to be fair, again, I’m just going to pipe in and say to be historically accurate, the reason why Pontius Pilate probably actually deserves a bad reputation is history is that he does not seem to have been very skilled at negotiating the Jewish cultural beliefs and laws and practices in this region. He does not seem to be very respectful of them, and therefore probably does deserve a poor reputation as a governor for the things that went down. And probably was not a very soft and cuddly person, but being played by Michael Palin, I love him.

Dr G
Yeah, look, and I don’t think the Romans would expect anything less from themselves in this situation than to enforce Roman attitudes and beliefs. Yeah, so the things that Pontius Pilate gets accused of probably all quite deserved. Yeah.

Dr Rad
I mean, it seems like yeah, he probably wasn’t the best person for the job at this point in time, which probably is kind of why things got out of hand with Jesus. But was he any different to any other Roman governor? Yeah? Like, I

Dr G
can’t see a timeline necessarily where a Roman governor wouldn’t have gone yeah. Obviously they need to be executed, yeah. And from a Roman perspective, Jesus is not someone special, no. And in this moment, this cross cutting scene in the sort of lead up to the crucifixion of Brian is this scene where Pontius Pilate has said that he will squeeze someone, he will save one of the of the people to be crucified. There’s apparently going to be 140 crucifixions as a special celebration, and one of them will be released. And the crowd just goes wild because they’re aware of his speech impediment, and they just offer him names that he’s going to mispronounce. Watcher. Is there a watcher? And so they just keep going on on this path, and eventually somebody suggests Brian, in which Yeah, conveniently also doesn’t work for the speech impediment, and a messenger does get sent to the site of the crucifixion like, you know, we need to release Brian. And Brian is currently distracted having, he’s in a chat with somebody else. I don’t know, he’s not across, but he is like, you know, and somebody hears this, and one of the Mr. Cheeky,

Dr Rad
yes, Mr. Cheeky, yeah. Mr. Cheeky, telling him that it’s all right, my brother’s gonna come and rescue me.

Dr G
And then they have this moment where a guard turns up and says, you know, we are to release Brian. And so then the people organizing the crucifixions are like, well, who’s Brian? I’m

Dr Rad
Brian, and so is my wife. I’m Brian.

Dr G
And so the parody of the Spartacus scene writ large absolutely to enjoy. But

Dr Rad
again, what is historically accurate is that Jesus was not alone at his crucifixion, and he certainly was not the only person to be penalized this way under the

Dr G
Romans. No, although apparently some of the initial critique. Of this film was that there were too many people getting crucified at one time. Absolutely.

Dr Rad
Look, I think, I don’t think the Romans would have generally crucified this many people at one time. But then again, if you think about the aftermath of Spartacus war, allegedly 6000 of the surviving slaves, 6000 that is, were crucified up and down the Appian Way, so they were capable of it. Oh, yeah.

Dr G
So yeah, this is basically the end of the film. It is

Dr Rad
where we get to Always Look on the bright side of life. Now this is this actually segues nicely to thinking about the fact that this scene, in particular, I think, was one of the ones that aroused a lot of controversy when this film was released. So it did do very well this film, it made a huge amount of money. I think it was something like $60,000 in its first five days. I presume that means $60,000 in like 1970s money. It did do very well at the box office, but it was considered controversial by some people, and it was banned in certain areas. So it was banned in Norway. It was banned in the Republic of certain parts of the Republic of Ireland. I believe it was even maybe banned in parts of America. I think so. Definitely. It was a controversial film, and this particular scene was notorious because people felt like they were making fun of the crucifixion and, you know, Jesus’s death, something that’s hugely important for Christians. So if you, if you watch, and we will link this in the show notes, because it’s fairly available on YouTube, if you watch the BBC Two appearance of John Cleese and Michael Palin on Friday night, Saturday morning, which I have to say, my favorite part of watching that whole show was the fact that that show starts with a couple in bed having sex, and they turn to watch the program. That’s like the opening credits. But anyway, they were basically responding to criticisms from Malcolm Muggeridge and an Anglican bishop called Mervyn Stockwood, and the thing that they kept coming back to was that crucifixion scene. They felt like it was making light of death. They felt like it was really attacking a core moment for their belief. With the crucifixion, they kept coming back to that scene so you can kind of see how some people react, if you want to watch that YouTube thing, my favorite part of that whole episode is that, in terms of standing the test of time, those men don’t come across well nowadays the way that they I mean, you want to talk about being central to like Western culture and British culture, the way that they prioritize Christianity and that as being the basis for Western culture, the only thing that ever inspired anybody, completely ignoring the way that Christianity was forced upon people at the point of being burnt to death, completely ignoring all the negative conflict that has come with religions like Christianity, but it doesn’t stand the test of time. What you can see as well on YouTube, which I will also link, is the not the Nine O’Clock News sketch starring a very young Rowan Atkinson. I was gonna say that was one of his first Yeah, where? So about two weeks after that, initial debate appeared on television, not the Nine O’Clock News decided to do their own sketch making fun of the debate, where they have a bishop played by Rowan Atkinson coming on. He’s just made a movie about the life of Christ, and he’s being accused of lampooning Monty Python, particularly our Lord on high, John Cleese. And that might be a good moment, I suppose, to wrap up. Dr, G, yeah. Look, I

Dr G
think so. So I would encourage you, if you haven’t watched this film, to go and do so. It’s currently on Netflix, but it might be in other places as well. It is definitely worth thinking about as you also enjoy it. And yeah, I’m just in my mind, I’m just, I’m excited about the prospect of learning more about this historical period from non Roman material and and I think that’s one of the challenges that we always face as Roman historians, is that there is that element of the victor leaves the record, and that has definitely flow come down to us, and we can see it manifesting in this film. But there’s also like things to think about, in terms of imperialism generally, and ways in which we engage in decolonizing as we go. So yeah, and

Dr Rad
look, I think the thing that will stand the test of time about this film, I say, I do like that. It’s probably a bit more I lived in kind of Roman world, and I actually do like the fact that a lot of the characters we’re engaging with are more ordinary, I suppose, than a lot of the people we see in films about ancient Rome, who tend to be more emperors and generals. And we actually get to know these sorts of characters who, funnily enough, probably were the kinds of characters that. Jesus was moving around. You know, amongst us, that’s kind of why Brian and his mother are so perfectly placed to have that sliding doors kind of life with Jesus Christ. They’re exactly the kind of people that he probably would have been associating with. So I do kind of like that. But I think the thing that really stands the test of time is the fact that the characterizations like we all know people like the characters that Monty Python plays even 50 years later, including one that we didn’t really mention, but the leper, the X leper, without so much as a buy your leave, the people like that, who are kind of timeless characters, I think, and I think that’s what makes Life of Brian stand out so much, but perhaps also the fact that it is a bit of a riff on biblical epics, which some people might still be very familiar with, and I obviously number amongst those people.

Dr G
Well, it has been an absolute joy to learn more about this film with you.

Dr Rad
It certainly has, let’s say, arrivederci to Brian. His name is Brian.

Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians, you can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, and you get to make suggestions for future episodes. This one was one of our Patreon requests. So of course, we’d like to thank all of our wonderful crew over at Patreon and also our ko fi supporters for helping us to cover the costs of making the show and taking it in new directions. However, if you’re experiencing a serious lack of sisters, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review that goes for our book as well. You can now purchase Rex, the seven kings of Rome, right from our Patreon store as well as through Gumroad and Amazon. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome, you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979) appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The 400s BCE have been a rollercoaster for Rome. It certainly seems to have been a decade of big changes, both in terms of foreign policy and on the domestic front.

Join us for the highlights for the last decade of the fifth century BCE!

The Partial Recap – 400s BCE

Want to hear the full story? Head to Episode 144: Where in the World is Carventum? to start at 410 BCE.

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 400s BCE!
Dr G – I’m Dr G
Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad
Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 400s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 409 to 400 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.
Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino.

409 BCE

408 BCE

407 BCE

406 BCE

405 BCE

404 BCE

403 BCE

402 BCE

401 BCE

400 BCE

Dr Rad: And that was the 400s in Ancient Rome… or was it?

Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 144: Where in the World is Carventum? to join us for a deep dive into the 400s BCE.

Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!

The post The Partial Recap – 400s BCE appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We are SO excited to share a snippet of our new book with you! That’s right, we have a whole section entitled ‘With a Rebel Yell’ that will be bonus digital content on the Ulysses Press website and so we thought, why not read it as well?

Today, we kick it all off with the section on the rebellious gladiator, SPARTACUS. Ah, this is where it all began for Dr Rad, and here we are at another beginning, and he’s still her plus one.

Sneak Peek from the Bonus Digital Chapter of Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire

Hopefully this gives you a good idea of what you can expect from Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire.

Are you based in Australia? You can pre-order our book from the wonderful Abbey’s bookstore and they’ll even deliver it to you for a modest fee.

Keen to read the whole bonus chapter? You can it find online here.

As always, we would like to thank Bettina Joy de Guzman for our wonderful music.

The post A Cheeky Preview – With a Rebel Yell – Spartacus appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We jump into the year 400 BCE which has more excitement than you may have anticipated. Could this be the year we have evidence for a plebeian break-through into the important magisterial position of military tribune with consular power?

Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push into Power

Now, as always with this period of Rome’s early republican history, we need to keep into mind that the extant records are sketchy and we’re relying on writers living centuries in the future for their interpretation of whatever information they could scrounge together. And yet, if we look at the names that are put forward for the top job in 400 BCE, we notice some folk we’ve never heard of before – not just individuals, but extended family groups (gens), which is worth considering in more depth. You know we can’t resist a good thorny mystery when it comes to the evidence!

The entry of Calvus into the position of military tribune with consular power is a bit of a cat amongst the pigeons. But it might be Livy’s details about Calvus’ position as a member of the senate that makes this even more intriguing. We consider what the structure of the very early senate might have been (largely in the absence of strong evidence from the period in question). Where did the senate come from? How did it emerge as a feature of the republic? What might make sense given the senate is later understood as an advisory body? Was there a third socio-political class in the early republic? We explore some potential scenarios.

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sound.

A photograph of the Roman forum by Felix Bonfils in the 19th century. Source: Picryl.

Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G.

Dr Rad 1:03
And I am Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:05
And we are super thrilled to be here for what is the cusp; the very moment of transition. We’re going to be talking about 400 BCE.

Dr Rad 1:18
I know. Do you remember when we were young and we started this podcast, and now we’re middle aged, and we not even at the better known parts of Roman history yet.

Dr G 1:27
Goodness me, oh, you know, I like being in these lands of Rome’s just developing. What is it? Why is it? Nobody really knows.

Dr Rad 1:38
I know. Yeah, well, it’s easy to do a bit of a recap of where we were at last time in ancient Rome. Dr, G, because in 401 we hit a momentous milestone for ancient Rome. That’s right after all this conflicting of the orders that we’ve had going on for, oh, I don’t know, maybe like 85 years. Maybe longer, plenty, actually, no, 95 years. Yeah, 95 years. After 95 years of having conflict of the orders dominating our narrative, we finally got a plebeian elected due to serve in 400 BCE as a military tribune with consular power, which, okay, it’s not the consulship, but it is the most powerful magistracy that will exist at this moment in time.

Dr G 2:30
And let’s not disparage this position, because a military tribune with consular power has all of the effective means of the consul role, plus all of the added bonus of the military, I suppose, which exactly the consul had already, I don’t know.

Dr Rad 2:50
Yeah, they just don’t get the snooty patrician ability to be like, we’re patrician and you’re not, and we do the religious rights in this particular realm, and you don’t, and we have fancy shoes and you don’t!

Dr G 3:06
Ah, it’s the fancy shoes that get you every time it is.

Dr Rad 3:10
Manolo Blahnik should be all over that one ancient Rome, yeah.

Dr G 3:16
Well, I think this is because it’s such a momentous occasion. I think we need to dive in because I’m not sure that our source material is necessarily agreeing with each other, Dr. Rad.

Dr Rad 3:29
Controversy. All right, let’s do it. Dr, G, let’s dive in to 400 BCE.

I’m dancing. I’m dancing.

Dr G 4:04
It’s 400 BCE, and we have six military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 4:12
Alright. Dr, G, tell me who they are, because I believe there is some confusion around the names for this year.

Dr G 4:19
There may very well be, and I put it to you that there’s a whole bunch of names in here that don’t sound patrician. First of all, we have Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, question mark, not a patrician. We haven’t had a Calvus before.

Dr Rad 4:39
No, this is definitely, this is the guy. THIS is the guy. Dr G, this is the one.

Dr G 4:44
Oh okay, he’s not my only one though

Dr Rad 4:46
He’s definitely the plebeian, yeah.

Dr G 4:49
We also have Publius Manlius Vulso. Sounds very patrician. Whatever.

Dr Rad 4:55
I was gonna say, I think I’ve heard that name a number of times.

Dr G 4:58
But wait, there’s more. We have Lucius Titinius Pansa Saccus.

Dr Rad 5:07
That is a weird name, if ever I heard one.

Dr G 5:10
Not a patrician.

Dr Rad 5:13
hmhmhmhmhmmmmm

Dr G 5:13
Doesn’t sound like it. This is his first appearance. But we will see more of this guy later. We then have Publius Maelius Capitolinus. Now you would think patrician sounds pretty patrician.

Dr Rad 5:27
Well we’ve heard, we’ve heard of the family before. That’s that’s all, yeah.

Dr G 5:30
But there are some question marks around this guy as well.

Dr Rad 5:34
Hmmmm.

Dr G 5:34
Maybe not a patrician.

Dr Rad 5:35
Maybe not.

Dr G 5:37
Spurius Furius Medullinus.

Dr Rad 5:40
I know he is definitely, definitely a patrician.

Dr G 5:42
Yeah, we’ve got, yeah, back on solid patrician territory.

Dr Rad 5:45
The Furii.

Dr G 5:46
Very elite family come back from the dead, just to let us all know how good they are. And Lucius Publius, or Publilius, there seems to be, you know, some controversy. Maybe there’s an extra L in there somewhere. Voler Philo Vulscus.

Dr Rad 6:05
Another unusual name, Dr G.

Dr G 6:08
Very, very, potentially, not a patrician. So that would leave us with potentially three or four of these military tribunes with consular power as being non elite patrician holders of the role, which is pretty huge.

Dr Rad 6:31
Not the very cream of the crop.

Dr G 6:33
Well, has everybody died? Have the elite just had a specific plague that’s affected only them? Who can say? But I think there is room to be very cautious in this moment as a good historian-

Dr Rad 6:47
Sure

Dr G 6:47
Because having never seen hide nor hair of a non patrician in any of these roles for years and years, ever since the beginning, since 509, so over, over 100 years to then, all of a sudden, have at least half, and maybe more than half, all of a sudden be non patrician. It seems to be significant.

Dr Rad 7:16
It is. It’s like they’re pulling the old switcheroo on us, Dr G.

Dr G 7:21
Find the lies.

Dr Rad 7:23
That’s right, yeah. Well, look, all I can tell you is that, according to my narrative source, Livy, only one of them is a plebeian.

Dr G 7:35
Truly a plebeian. The others are just pretending by changing their names to get onto the role.

Dr Rad 7:40
Clever sleight of hand. You know, just when you think they’re gonna zig, they zag.

Dr G 7:45
Classic patrician move. Now, why does Livy think that only one of them might be a plebeian and the rest are patricians, but of unknown families?

Dr Rad 7:57
He gives me no such reason, Dr G, he just tells me. He just tells me that the plebeians are shocked and amazed that they have finally done it, that they have finally taken the plunge and elected one of their own to serve in the supreme magistracy, which technically they have been able to do according to our narrative for almost 50 years now.

Dr G 8:26
I was going to say, so this ties in very particularly to what we know about the legal aspect of the lex Canuleia or Canuleia of 445 BCE.

Dr Rad 8:40
Yes

Dr G 8:41
which was the official moment where they were like, oh, yeah, plebeians could hold the position. I suppose it’s kind of done a little bit under like duress.

Dr Rad 8:52
Oh, they definitely did not want them to have the consulship. They would keep your dirty little contaminated paws off the consulship. That’s for the very, very special people that are patricians. We’ll come up with this other ridiculous office with an insanely long name instead. And you can, you can maybe have that one. Maybe.

Dr G 9:09
Exactly. You could be a tribute of the plebs, nothing more, nothing less.

Dr Rad 9:13
Yeah. But they’re not even thrilled about that.

Dr G 9:16
Well, I mean, sometimes and the patricians try to get they try to muscle in on that as well. So there’s a lot going on there, but this lex Canuleia is that idea of there should be permissible intermarriage between patrician clans and plebeian families. So you would expect that there would be a bridging of the two groups, and as the generations move down, you would see more mixed class Romans, as it were, and it’s like, is it the case that it’s taken 45 years for all of those intermarriages that were permissible to produce the kind of children who can stand up and say, Look, I don’t have a patrician name, but I got what it takes to take on the role of military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 10:06
Well, this is the thing that Livy has constantly been driving home throughout the narrative, is that the plebeians couldn’t bring themselves to vote for plebeian candidates. And there are various different reasons given, but it kind of always comes down to the fact that, oh, the patricians are just so amazing, they can’t possibly not vote for them all the plebeians are rubbish. Or, you know, there’s always some reason why the plebeians think that their own kind are not somehow as suitable or as good for the job, and why they don’t end up voting for their own candidates. But I agree it is intriguing to think that maybe there has been a generational shift.

Dr G 10:47
Well, I wonder, because I do have some questions about this. So we know that this came into play in 445. So the first question is, how likely would it have been that any patrician-plebeian unions are happening from that point onwards? Because I imagine there might have some resistance to that. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean people want to do it.

Dr Rad 11:08
This is true.

Dr G 11:09
And then who of those unions, if indeed so, let’s say a patrician and a plebeian got together. They had a bit of a marriage.

Dr Rad 11:18
Romeo and Juliet.

Dr G 11:19
It was cute. Yeah, crossing the divide. You’re from the fields, I’m from the city, and when I saw you from my balcony, I thought to myself, he is one hot plebeian, and I will marry him and have his babies. And they did that. Let’s say that they did hypothetically, would those children be considered patrician or plebeian or neither? Now I suspect from a Roman perspective, it’s going to depend on what the class of the father was.

Dr Rad 11:49
I agree, yes.

Dr G 11:50
But that leads us to more complicated questions as well, because let’s say you were in that first crop. You were very excited. Finally, you were able to, like, get together with your plebeian love and as a patrician, you might expect your children to have come of age in the 420s or at the latest, the 410s if things were going a little bit more slowly for you. So where have these people been in terms of holding positions of power? And it’s like it’s taking a long time for them to for the wheel to turn. So I feel like there’s a narrative element here, because there’s conveniently, 45 years between the introduction of this intermarriage law and people who seem to be from a plebeian background, coming into a position which would suggest that if they were the first crop and everything happened like: the law comes in; somebody has a baby; 45 years later, they’re old enough to hold the role of military tribune with consular power. You’ve got to be relatively senior.

Dr Rad 12:50
The Romans do like older men in charge.

Dr G 12:54
They do. They have a – seem to have – a preference for the salt and pepper, as it were.

Dr Rad 13:00
I’m going to call it the George Clooney paradox.

Dr G 13:05
And the more gray there is, the more attractive he becomes.

Dr Rad 13:08
Exactly. It’s very intriguing.

Dr G 13:11
Doesn’t happen for all men, but definitely happens for some and so I feel like this whole situation invites more questions than it answers, which, frankly, listeners will not be surprised about.

Dr Rad 13:23
Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, obviously, that’s the narrative that we’re given. How true any of this actually is is definitely out for debate. We’ve already, I think, highlighted in many episodes on conflict of the orders that we’re really not entirely sure that there is quite the hard and fast divide between patricians and plebeians that our sources would like us to believe, and therefore the motivations for these groups is not always going to make sense.

Dr G 13:53
Oh, come on.

Dr Rad 13:55
But let me, shall I tell you a little bit about this guy? Shall I tell you about the guy?

Dr G 14:00
Oh, this Calvus Esquilinus

Dr Rad 14:02
yep

Dr G 14:02
character, yes. I would love to know more about this plebeian.

Dr Rad 14:07
Yes. Okay, so the plebeians are shocked and amazed. They’ve finally done it. That’s where we’re at. However, the candidate that has been the one to break the barrier is a little bit puzzling even to the Romans themselves, and that’s because we have never heard of like any as calvis before, because he had never held any offices. So he’s never been like a tribune of the plebs, which I guess is what you might expect for someone who is then going to, you know, take a jump, take a run at the senior magistracy of Rome, however, and this is where we get this little detail, which I couldn’t resist telling you last time. Livy says all he was, was a senator of long standing now well on in years, which blew my mind. It still blows my mind, this idea that, oh yeah, by the way, in spite of all this stuff I’ve been feeding you about the Conflict of the Orders, by the way, plebeians are allowed to be in the Senate. Didn’t mention it. Didn’t mention it up until now, but, by the way, bombshell.

Dr G 15:12
Just in case you haven’t been paying attention.

Dr Rad 15:15
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All this bitterness.

Dr G 15:18
Turns out they’ve been there all along.So I think this gives us a moment to think about like, what is the Senate in this period of time? Because we don’t know a lot about its structure. Really

Dr Rad 15:32
Clearly

Dr G 15:33
We know very little about it. And the thing about the Roman Senate that we tend to hold on to is this idea that they’re they’ve got this traditional role. So thinking about how the Senate is represented in later periods of Roman history, they’ve got an advisory role that’s considered traditional. They sit outside of legislation. In some respects, they’re supposed to be advisors, and they’re drawn from significant, powerful families. And there’s usually some sort of like monetary entry level as well. So there’s both seniority in age and position, and also there’s a wealth aspect. And then there’s kind of like the sense in which they’re not legally bound to be followed either this weird kind of overhang.

Dr Rad 16:26
Not until later. That does eventually happen, but not for a long time.

Dr G 16:31
Not for a long time and so and then we’re in this period of history where we’re on the cusp of shifting into a new century. The Republic has been at play for about a century, so this advisory body has probably taken slightly different shapes across the course of that century, none of which we’re very aware of or could pinpoint in any way, because they just kind of get referred to every now and then. But the idea that there are plebeians in this group does run very counter to most of the things that we assume about the Senate, and assume we know about the Senate, even from, say, 200 years from now in Roman history. So I think this is a really fascinating point where how stable is this republic, and what does it really look like to function in this century, in this very early period? And it sounds like we’re not really sure, and Livy has just dropped a bomb.

Dr Rad 17:36
Look he has. And part of the issue comes from Livy himself, I admit it. He tends to use patrician interchangeably with Senate. You know, he constantly is assuming in his language choices that they are one and the same in terms of their perspective. And so throughout the narrative that I have been providing in this podcast, the Senate comes across, therefore, as a very patrician, quite conservative, quite elite body. Now, two of those things may be true. I would say that, yeah, they probably are pretty elite, regardless of what social class they come from. And look, they probably are fairly conservative as well, because they’re a bunch of old guys. But I, there have been questions that we’ve had raised in the scholarship that have highlighted that we don’t really know how people become senators at this point in time, because later on, the Senate is mostly made up of people who have held magistracies. But obviously that doesn’t work when you’re starting a republic. You wouldn’t – you’d only have, like a guy and and we don’t ever get a sense that the Senate starts with like two guys, and then you get a few more, and then you get a few more. And, like, it’s this math game where gradually we’re building up the numbers, because there just aren’t that many positions going around. It would be a very slow, tortuous process, and I don’t think that they’d be fulfilling that advisory body capacity if it’s just like a bunch of five guys for a while. So it does raise questions of, Well, where did they initially come from?

Dr G 19:08
Yeah, and this is where I think playing around with, like the possibilities, like what would make sense, what might be plausible in this context, and the idea that there may be delegates sent by families, and there is a request for an advisory body. So where that request might come from? I think it would be coming from families themselves, being like, okay, if we’re doing this system differently, and we don’t have kings anymore, where we’d like to have a bit of a sense of what’s going on and getting people together. So not just having a couple of magistracies, like the consulship and the tribune of the plans, but having a family network where people get together and they send a representative into a situation where they can come together to talk at issues. And try to provide advice. And this might be taking the place of the idea of, well, if there was a king in charge, it was all pretty down the line. But for a king to rule, they kind of have to have consent of the people there. Has there has to be some sort of social support there? So the families are involved anyway, but maybe not in the same kind of way. And if the kings are operating with some advisors, and we do get hints about that, then maybe this sort of carries over into this new Republican experiment where they’re like, Well, we still need to be here to provide some advice. You know, everybody’s got a perspective. And if you’re going to make legislation that affects all of us, then we do want to have a say in how that’s going down and what that might look like. And then the number could be quite flexible at that point, depending on who’s involved, depending on how many delegates might be sent, depending on the agreement amongst that group about how many people are appropriate. And as some plebeian families become more significant, and particularly after the advent of the tribune of the plebs, it might be the case that you’ve got some quite powerful plebeian groups who are like, well, we would like to have a seat at that table as well. And that’s interesting,

Dr Rad 21:22
Yeah, well, this, yeah, this is exactly, I think, what we’ve been trying to highlight this whole time. There is this real tendency to see the patricians as the wealthy guys and the plebeians as the poor guys. And that’s because of, I think, the connotations that we have when we use the word “pleb” to describe somebody these days, but it also is because of the kinds of issues that the plebeians are often concerned about in the sources, you know, money and debt is sometimes one of them, land ownership is another one. So you can understand why you’d get that impression that these people are not, you know, as well off as they’d like to be, and that sort of thing. But one of the things that we have highlighted is that it’s not really like that in practice, we can definitely detect that there are some plebeian families that are obviously quite wealthy, and with wealth tends to come power and influence, even if it’s not official, like not because you’re holding a particular office, it’s just because, obviously you have The ability to grant favors, and you know, your opinion is maybe noted a little bit more. So I completely agree it would be really interesting, particularly given the whole warlord aspect that we’ve been noticing in this century, that it does seem to be a collection of powerful families that have stepped into the power vacuum potentially left by the office of king, perhaps. And it seems to be almost much more feudal in nature, in that they each obviously hold territory in particular areas. And it seems that they are protecting, representing, calling on the people who live in that area, and maybe sort of representing them, so they’re able to, you know, raise private armies from amongst their area. So I love the idea that you’ve just proposed that maybe it is a family run affair, to a certain extent, where they’re sending representatives.

Dr G 23:14
Look, I think it’s a potential, and I think it’s definitely worth thinking about, like, how does this emerge? Because, I mean, they’re referred to as the fathers. So there’s that masculine implication already, but there’s also that idea of seniority in terms of family position, and the way that that sort of translates into a political advisory body, I think, is really quite fascinating. So, yeah, I’m, I’m not sure, and we don’t have good evidence, like, as we’ve seen, Livy has just dropped this on on us.

Dr Rad 23:46
I know I couldn’t believe it when I read it, because I don’t actually have a huge amount of detail for this year, which seems criminal given how long we’ve been waiting to get to this point. But that detail alone just sent me whirling, you know, in terms of all the thoughts that are running through my head. And it also brought me back to something which we probably haven’t talked about in a while, but that is this name that is sometimes used to refer to the Senate, the ‘patres conscripti’. Now there’s been a lot of ink spilt over what exactly this means and how we should interpret it. I mean, we know what the literal meaning of those words is, but what are the implications of those words? So “patres” meaning the fathers, which makes sense, because we do have this group of older men who are holding an advisory role. That makes sense. And then there’s been some debate about what the “conscripti” part is exactly actually referring to. Could it be that the conscripti were people who were, like, conscripted to the Senate, or like were enlisted into the Senate somehow, and therefore, maybe were representatives of, say, plebeian families. So maybe the part raised were maybe some sort of advisors to the king or. You know, families that the king gave particular rights and privileges to, who knows, and that’s why they got this identity as part raise. And then we have this potentially separate group that are somehow, maybe slightly second tier, but the idea that they are, yeah, the conscripted ones into this senatorial body.

Dr G 25:21
Yeah and these are the things that we just we wish we knew about this early period of the Republic, because it would change everything if we knew how they were selected, and what were the kind of Terms of Reference they were operating under. Like, was it a role that you held for life? Was it something that was a sort of a time limited opportunity, and you did it for a little while, and then a different conscripted person came into that to fill the space. We just don’t know.

Dr Rad 25:50
Yeah, I mean, there’s even been suggestions that the conscripti are neither patrician or plebeian, and that this would neatly explain, I know, this would neatly explain, why we have-

Dr G 26:01
There’s a third group in Rome? No! No!

Dr Rad 26:05
We can’t handle it, but yeah, maybe the fact the idea of them being a third body who does not technically belong to either, would explain the weird names that we get in the lists of consuls and in the lists of the military tribunes with a consular power and that sort of thing, where it doesn’t seem like it’s the right kind of name for the families that we know, you know what we think we know should be holding those offices. So it might explain the confusing nature of all the list of magistrates that we’ve had in this century, when there’s supposedly this big conflict of the orders going on, and therefore that, that’s why we have that particular sort of setup. And then maybe the plebs gradually become involved with certain groups as clients, or, you know, through other means. And so obviously there’s more blurring of the lines going on, perhaps in terms of who is, who’s part of these groups, or who is represented by these groups. It’s incredibly confusing, obviously.

Dr G 27:07
The more it gets confusing, yeah, and this is not the first moment where we have a plebeian or a suspected plebeian in a position of power. So that’s the other thing. This seems to be the, maybe the most plausible moment. But there are some other candidates earlier on. So there is the suggestion that in 444 Atilius may have been a plebeian, and in 422 Antonius, in that year may have been a plebeian. And these are arguments that are put forward by very respected German scholars of the 19th century, Momsen and Munzer. So we don’t want to discount them out of hand, because I would love to be as good as a German scholar from the 19th century.

Dr Rad 28:01
100% it’s the dream.

Dr G 28:03
That is the dream, just grow me a beard, sit at a desk, have seven children, just never talk to them.

Dr Rad 28:08
Give me a pretzel and call me Dr Greenfield.

Dr G 28:12
Please do. But there is this sort of suggestion, like, really early on, after that 445 law on the potential for intermarriage, that there may have been some early figures who, quite possibly, and we’re not sure, may have been plebeian as well.

Dr Rad 28:31
Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 28:32
So that puts us in a kind of situation where the lack of surety that we have about anything is just being reinforced at every opportunity.

Dr Rad 28:42
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I sometimes kind of imagine this situation if, as if Ancient Rome was the American South prior to the Civil Rights Movement, just because it kind of helps me remember that even with much more clearly, I think, delineated lines of segregation as existed in the south, even in a situation where you have laws and unofficial practices and violence and terror and all of that kind of stuff going on to try and keep two groups apart, even then it’s not always successful. You know, there are those exceptions where you hear of people mixing anyway or behaving in ways that are dangerous, or, you know, whatever. And then, of course, you have the Civil Rights Movement, which, of course, is, you know, daring to push back against this kind of segregation. And Ancient Rome is obviously not like that. So to me, it makes sense that obviously there would be much more blurring of the lines between these two groups than it sometimes would appear because of the nature of our source material. It makes sense that it’d be far messier, because we’re not talking about a society that is segregated. So this is about access to opportunity, access to wealth, access to privilege, access to knowledge, like about the laws and that sort of thing. But on a day to day level, I don’t think that they would live these like super segregated lives.

Dr G 30:16
Yeah. And I think the way that we think about, for instance, the big ticket item that has often been at the center of this conflict has been use of public land. Might be a bit of a retrojection from our written sources, but the absolutely the idea at the heart of that is that some families have land and control land, and some families don’t.

Dr Rad 30:41
Yeah.

Dr G 30:42
Or they don’t have enough land to do the subsistence farming that would allow them to take care of themselves. And they’re looking for another opportunity to rectify that. And so this idea of the sort of the haves and the have nots within a society, and the kind of infighting that might be generated by that of people pushing for opportunity, people resisting changes to the status quo that suits them, and then the sort of complexities that happen within that where people in power often abuse that power.

Dr Rad 31:19
Yes, absolutely. And that’s what rings true, I think, about the conflict of the orders, and why you and I get fired up about it, because it does seem to be this age old story that people with power will not voluntarily give up that power, and will often it will often lead to situations where there is an abuse of that power and that privilege, yeah.

Dr G 31:40
For sure.

Dr Rad 31:42
Anyway, so let’s get back to Licinius Calvus.

Dr G 31:45
Oh yeah, what’s this guy up to? What’s he doing in the role? Surely he’s a mover and a shaker.

Dr Rad 31:50
Oh. Dr, G, you gonna be so disappointed. So Livy does not tell me why he thinks the other guys are patricians, and why he thinks this guy is a plebeian. He doesn’t go into that, but he does ask the question, why was this guy the guy? Why is he the one that finally broke that barrier? And there are a couple of reasons that he moots about for me. One of them is that he had apparently a connection to a guy called Gnaeus Cornelius, who had been a tribune of the soldiers and had been involved in raising the pay of the cavalrymen. So yeah, we’d be talking about equestrian pay, and, yeah, pay for soldiers and that sort of thing. Allegedly, this guy obviously had some sort of renown due to this, and that maybe the connection, but it is not obviously the most obvious line into a magistracy.

Dr G 32:53
I was gonna say, I’m like, we don’t really ever talk about the tribunes of the soldiers…

Dr Rad 32:59
No. And that’s just it. It’s, yeah, it’s, it’s a bit confusing as to why this would be such a big deal.

Dr G 33:09
Yeah, interesting, interesting move, Livy. Interesting move.

Dr Rad 33:13
And look, Livy doesn’t say this is the reason. He just says this is maybe one of the reasons we know that also one of Livy sources, at times, is Licinius Macer or Macer, if you prefer, so potentially, is this the influence of a source that Livy is using, who is writing with maybe a slightly favorable bent towards his own family and that is seeping into our source material? But even this is confusing, because we’re not obviously always sure when Livy is relying on Licinius Macer, he doesn’t always tell us, and there are other sources that we know he’s relying on. We can’t tell for sure if that’s what it is that he’s using at this point in time.

Dr G 33:57
All right, so that potential to be relying on family narratives, potentially.

Dr Rad 34:04
Potentially, yeah, but it doesn’t. It’s not 100% a convincing story, because at this point in time, it doesn’t really seem that. It doesn’t seem like what Livy is writing is that pro this family, like, there’s other points where you can see it more clearly that, you know, he’s glorifying the Licinii or something like that. And so it’s not really clear that that is what is going on here exactly. There is another reason, and this is the reason that’s going to really disappoint you. Uh oh, it may have been because of a speech that Licinius Calvus apparently gave where he talked about wanting peace between the patricians and the plebeians, essentially saying, can’t we all just get along, guys and everyone really responded positively to this fence sitting, non-committal position.

Dr G 35:03
His way into power!

Dr Rad 35:06
He did, I think that, and look, to be honest, disappointing as it sounds, that kind of, that kind of checks.

Dr G 35:12
You’re telling me he made a palatable plebeian for a patrician to get into power?

Dr Rad 35:20
I know, and that’s why I kind of believe it. Because I’m like, Well, of course, of course, the patricians let in the guy that’s not going to make waves and just get it. It’s going to be like, You know what, guys, I’m just really happy to be here. I’m happy to be included.

Dr G 35:34
We’ve taken our soft core plebeian and we’ve placed him in power. It’s going to be fine. I mean, the plebeians have wanted this for a long time, yeah, so basically, they put in the least plebeian guy they could find and be like, but we did it.

Dr Rad 35:48
I think that that’s the case. Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s the case. And apparently, the tribune of the plebs are finally happy. You know, they’ve been feeling really bitter that they fought so hard to win the right for plebeians to hold these offices, and then nobody ever elected anyone that was really starting to make them feel like there was no point to their existence. And why should they even go on? And so they therefore stop objecting to the tax which we talked about last episode. So remember, there was this mention that there had to be a special war tax to fund all these military operations, like military pay and pay for the equestrians.

Dr G 36:27
Yeah, now that you mention it, it feels very circular. We got to pay the soldiers, so we need to tax the soldiers.

Dr Rad 36:33
Well, it was causing a massive problem, because people had been promised this pay and then they weren’t receiving the pay because the money wasn’t coming through, because the tax wasn’t being paid, and the tax was only something that was only something that was just mentioned, and the tribunes were opposing that because they thought it was obscene that the patricians would ask for money to do all of this. And now, however, they’re just as happy as Larry, so everything kind of clicks along. The tax gets paid, it’s sent to the army. The army is happy. Because the army is happy. Guess what? Anxur is retaken from the Volscians, who seem to have not learnt from the example the Romans set. They’re off having a lovely holiday somewhere, allowing the Romans to just swoop in and take it back, which is weird, because that’s literally how they got it back from the Romans in the first place. It’s a little bit of history repeating.

Dr G 37:24
I’m suspicious.

Dr Rad 37:28
Yeah, I would definitely lean into those suspicions.

Dr G 37:32
All right. I mean, so this is not the plebeian hero that we’ve been waiting for.

Dr Rad 37:37
Nope. Livy explicitly says that his presence makes the plebeians happy. They are okay with him, and the patricians are not too upset by him. So it’s a win win situation, that is literally what Livy tells me.

Dr G 37:49
And it seems problematic in some respects for the tribune of the plebs as a cohort to just sort of roll over be like we finally got where we wanted, guys, everything’s great now. And I was like, the least plebeian dude ever got in as a plebeian.

Dr Rad 38:08
What I’m going to use a couple of modern day analogies, if you will. Again, I think about, for example, when in Australia, Julia Gillard got, well, I was going to say, got elected. But that’s not exactly how it happened. But let’s just say, happened. But let’s just say we had our first female prime minister, Julia Gillard. We also have, obviously, Obama becoming the first African American president of the United States. It obviously is not the case that just because you have a person of color or a woman finally holding this prestigious position, that everything magically gets solved for those groups that are experiencing problems being obviously women and African American people. But sometimes people talk about it like it is, hmm, you know, like they’ll say, well, what more do you want? You got a woman in office. What more do you want? There’s an African American man who’s serving as president. Clearly, everything is fine in this country. There are no problems for women, there are no problems for people of color, because the most important position in this country is held by someone from that group. Case closed, so I can kind of see why there might be that reaction after so many years of waiting.

Dr G 39:19
Well, okay, let’sgrant the tribune of the plebs some grace in this moment. Yeah, for being excited that they’ve finally broken through the patrician ceiling, as it were.

Dr Rad 39:35
Yeah.

Dr G 39:36
And it’s like, well, you know, now that it’s broken, they should be able we can get the real rebels in there, yes, but for now, let’s just be grateful that we got something at all.

Dr Rad 39:48
Yeah, and I know it sounds a bit ridiculous and but we know that the tribunes aren’t going to remain passive. I mean, we know there’s plenty more trouble to come from that group, so we know it’s just a temporary reprieve.

Dr G 40:00
I’m so sad.

Dr Rad 40:01
Yeah, and that’s basically all the detail that I have, apart from the fact that the Romans had a very cold and snowy winter, and it made the roads and the Tiber impassable. However, corn did not go up in price because they had enough stockpiled.

Dr G 40:21
Oh, that’s convenient.

Dr Rad 40:22
Yeah, that’s really all I have, yeah.

Dr G 40:25
Updates on weather conditions and the state of the harvest.

Dr Rad 40:30
I’m going to mention this really gigantic political moment, and I’m going to juxtapose that with a weather report from ancient Rome, which I almost never do unless it involves something, you know, really disastrous, like a flood or something like that. The only other detail I have is something that we probably could surmise without Livy telling us the plebeians were feeling positive and thought that maybe, just maybe, they might be able to get a plebeian in office the next year too. The suspense.

Dr G 41:01
I’m feeling optimistic, guys, yeah, it’s snowing outside, but there’s a plebeian higher office.

Dr Rad 41:07
That’s pretty much it. Yeah, I’m freezing to death, but there’s a plebeian in higher office. My family doesn’t have enough land to survive, but there’s a plebeian in higher office.

Dr G 41:18
Good thing we’ve got all this grain.

Dr Rad 41:22
So yeah, kind of crazy that we don’t have more detail. But then this is partly because, and once again, I’m just going to say this, we think that Livy is somewhat padding the narrative, as we know, because he wants to have this 10 year siege against Veii and so he’s got to make up the numbers somewhere.

Dr G 41:38
He doesn’t mention anything about this siege!

Dr Rad 41:42
Yeah, so that there we know that this has been strung out a little bit from probably a shorter time period to 10 years.

Dr G 41:51
In the background: no news from the siege front.

Dr Rad 41:55
Yeah, I can’t believe they’re not even talking about it, apart from the fact that, you know, the army gets paid, woo hoo.

Dr G 42:02
In breaking news: the army gets paid; there’s a plebeian in highest office, and it’s snowing on the front.

Dr Rad 42:09
That’s basically what 400 BCE was like in ancient Rome. It’s almost as though you’re there. So vivid is the detail.

Dr G 42:18
I do feel like I’m there trying to do my best English radio presenter voice. So I only have Diodorus Siculus as a source for this year. So thin on the ground.

Dr Rad 42:33
Dionysus is a distant memory.

Dr G 42:36
He is. He’s going to return to us at some point. I have his next fragment, waiting in the wings for when it’s appropriate to introduce.

Dr Rad 42:44
Waiting to pounce.

Dr G 42:47
And I’ll move on to new sources soon, at some point, I believe, as well, yeah, but Diodorus Siculus is really focused on what’s going on with the situation in Sicily and the ongoing conflict with Carthage. So news from the south, and he does mention a whole bunch of these military tribunes. Get some of the names right, get some of the names wrong, right? But it’s not his focus. He’s pretty clearly interested in what’s going on and Syracuse and the tyrant Dionysus, who’s starting to gain quite a reputation for himself, he sends a herald to Carthage and says, prepare yourselves. We’re going to attack so, I mean, I think I feel like that’s pretty polite.

Dr Rad 43:35
It’s giving them some warning.

Dr G 43:36
Yeah. He says, Unless you withdraw from the Greek cities of Sicily, I’m coming for you. And they’re like, oh, oh, okay. So the Carthaginians are not happy about that. Obviously it’s a bit of a threat, and there’s the sense of violence there. And they’ve also just endured a plague themselves. So they’re kind of, you know, the messenger turns up, and people are like, lying in the streets and not doing well. The herald reads it out, and everyone’s like, I can’t get up right now. War, you say, eerrrrr.

Dr Rad 44:12
Today is not that day.

Dr G 44:14
Yeah. So they feel pretty unprepared. They’re not having the best day of their lives. And they then start to think, Okay, well, how will we plan for this? There’s no question in their minds that they’re going to withdraw from the Greek colonies in Sicily. They’re like, I might be sick, but I’m not dead. And they decide that they’re going to hire a bunch of mercenaries from Eastern Europe.

Dr Rad 44:42
Okay.

Dr G 44:43
Quick, set sail! And so they’re sending out ships across the Mediterranean, particularly towards the east and the Northeast, to try and recruit as many people as they can for what they know will be the inevitable attack upon Carthage. They want to be ready for that. And they’re happy to pay for that support.

Dr Rad 45:02
Okay, so we’re gearing up for conflict.

Dr G 45:04
We’re gearing up. Everybody’s getting ready. The Carthaginians are ill, but they’re ready to fight. They’re preparing themselves.

Dr Rad 45:13
True dedication.

Dr G 45:15
Indeed indeed.

Dr Rad 45:16
All right, cool. Well, that means Dr G, I think it’s time for the Partial Pick.

Oh, okay, yeah. Does that herald a change of sound effect?

Dr G 45:36
Stay tuned, listeners. All right, so the first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 45:44
Well, I guess we need to give them some credit for retaking Anxur. It doesn’t seem to have been at all difficult, because I have absolutely no detail about the fighting, but they did it okay.

Dr G 45:59
I mean, it’s not very impressive, if they can just walk in there.

Dr Rad 46:02
It isn’t. But on the other hand, they do still have it, and Anxur is a good place to have.

Dr G 46:09
Well, I mean, certainly the Romans have decided that. I’d give them at most a two.

Dr Rad 46:14
What? That seems mean. Come on, three. Like they’ve taken a place, come on. Three!

Dr G 46:23
There’s been no sign of any conflict.

Dr Rad 46:25
Well, I mean…

Dr G 46:26
It’s simply just somebody, you know, in a Roman dress, walking up in, but they’re like, oi, and everybody inside be like, come on.

Dr Rad 46:33
No, okay. No, no. They just said that the Volscians had relaxed their – they’d relaxed the strictness with which they were guarding the city. It doesn’t say that there were no guards anywhere.

Dr G 46:46
But don’t you think that if there had been a military conflict, that Livy would have taken the opportunity to discuss it?

Dr Rad 46:52
Maybe he would, but maybe this is just a very, you know, a filler year, and therefore he’s not going to waste his time. He’s already told the story of how it was taken the first time.

Dr G 47:03
I don’t have the details, you know, I can’t guarantee that anything good happened here.

Dr Rad 47:07
We can’t, but we can’t decide points on lack of detail alone. It has to be somewhat on the military objective, otherwise we’re going to be really in trouble.

Dr G 47:16
That’s why I’m giving them a two. I mean, they took it.

Dr Rad 47:19
Fine, fine. I don’t have the energy to fight you,

Dr G 47:25
And that is how Rome will win all of her wars.

Dr Rad 47:29
This is why I’m the Remus and you’re the Romulus.

Dr G 47:30
Oh, no! So so far, they’re scoring two out of a possible 50. Here we go. All right, diplomacy.

Dr Rad 47:42
Huh? No, I don’t really feel like there’s much of that going on. Really. No, that’s got to be a zero diplomacy.

Dr G 47:53
Expansion.

Dr Rad 47:54
Okay, yes, okay, now you have to grant me something. Now I get three.

Dr G 48:00
If you think

Dr Rad 48:01
I think

Dr G 48:01
one measly little city of the Volscians…

Dr Rad 48:04
Hey, how often do they take a city from the Volscians? Not often. Every year back, they fight with them a lot. But how often do they actually take stuff, like take important things? You know, they’re not just taking a sheep. They’re taking the city, man.

Dr G 48:25
Given how stubborn I was on the last one, I’ll let you have this one. I am nothing, if not, benevolent.

Dr Rad 48:33
Ahhh the Augustus is coming through in you. Dr, G, all right. All right. We got a five.

Dr G 48:41
All right. So the next category is virtus.

Dr Rad 48:46
No, definitely none of that. It is a very, very dull year for behavior.

Dr G 48:54
Yeah, it feels like we don’t get quite enough behavior to be able to make a judgment call on it, does it?

Dr Rad 48:59
No, definitely not.

Dr G 49:00
All right, so our final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 49:05
Okay. Now this could be good, because whilst it’s cold, they’re not starving to death, and there’s a plebeian in higher office. I mean, sure he seems like a wet blanket, but hey.

Dr G 49:20
Yeah, look. I mean, it’s better than nothing, exactly.

Dr Rad 49:23
I mean, it’s a big deal. It is a – it is a big moment.

Dr G 49:27
It is and I think we should give them some points for that.

Dr Rad 49:30
Yeah, should we say? Is it like a five? Because, as we talked about, doesn’t make magically solve all the problems, and they actually have conceded on having to pay this tax, which they really didn’t want to have to pay.

Dr G 49:40
Well, if you don’t pay the tax, you don’t get paid. So what comes around goes around, I suppose.

Dr Rad 49:44
I know. I mean, I know it’s like, possibly beneficial, but it’s also, you know, who’s funding it, where’s the money? Follow the money.

Dr G 49:52
Follow the money. And the money-

Dr Rad 49:54
Yeah,

Dr G 49:54
-turns out it’s going to the citizens in the end. So that’s nice, yeah, look, I think a five is appropriate.

Dr Rad 49:59
Okay.

Dr G 49:59
This is a landmark moment for plebeians in terms of their representation beyond the tribunate. And I guess we’ll see how things go from here, hopefully it goes up for them.

Dr Rad 50:11
Well, Dr, G, that means that we finish on a grand total of 10 out of 50 golden eagles, which is disappointingly low for a big breakthrough for disenfranchised, I’m going to say, people everywhere.

Dr G 50:29
Yeah, look, it’s a good day for Romans, but maybe a not, not a great day for the Partial Pick.

Dr Rad 50:40
Oh, my God, I just had a thought, what if Livy deliberately made this year boring because he doesn’t like the plebeians?

Dr G 50:49
That would explain everything.

Dr Rad 50:51
It does, it goes all the way to the top.

Dr G 50:55
Well, I’m gonna sit on that thought. And it has been a pleasure.

Dr Rad 51:02
Yeah, it has been a pleasure. And may I say, given that we’re going to be releasing this episode in August of 2024 we are but a few months away from the release of our new book, “Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire”, which is available right now for pre order. If you would like to have a laugh whilst also learning a thing or two about ancient Rome. Please pick up a copy wherever good books are sold, and also Amazon, which I don’t put in that category.

Dr G 51:33
Very wise, yeah, this is a really exciting book. This is both historical it’s a little bit humorous in the way that we are, and there’s plenty of like, further readings and a very extensive bibliography. So if you’re if there’s subjects that interest you and take your fancy, you can definitely go off and do further reading and look up the source material as well. So yeah, I think it’s going to be very exciting. So “Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire” from Ulysses Press.

Dr Rad 52:06
Yeah. And you can also head to our website to find the details on how to pre order a copy for yourself today. The way that publishing works these days, pre orders are actually super duper important, so that’s why we are spooking it, even though it is not yet a physical reality.

Dr G 52:22
Yeah, I mean, perhaps you’d enjoy it for yourself, but I reckon it will also make a great gift for Christmas, for people who you know, who you’re like, oh, they do like Rome, but they’d like to know more.

Dr Rad 52:35
Yeah, or a light read over Thanksgiving. I believe it will be out in America, for our American cousins. I believe we’ll be out there just in time for Thanksgiving. How exciting. I know a perfect light read for your holiday.

Dr G 52:49
All right. Well, on that note, get reading people. Thankhank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. On behalf of Dr Rad and myself, we want to say a huge, huge thank you to all of you for enjoying Ancient Rome with us and a special thank you to our Patreon supporters for loving the show and enabling us to do amazing things like upgrade our audio equipment. So thank you so so much and have a great day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push into Power appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

In our latest special episode, we welcomed the talented LJ Trafford to the show to discuss her latest book, Ancient Rome’s Worst Emperors (2023).

Special Episode – Ancient Rome’s Worst Emperors

You may very well have encountered some of LJ’s wonderful earlier works, including her historical novel series: The Four Emperors. These books cover a turbulent time in the early imperial period with Nero’s fall from power (and life) in 68 CE and the subsequent chaos that followed in the year 69. 

She has also published nonfiction works on ancient Rome including How to Survive in Ancient Rome (2020) and Sex and Sexuality in Ancient Rome (2021). And just in case that didn’t keep her busy, LJ is a contributor to The History Girls blog, writing about all sorts of fascinating subjects involving the ancient world from Pliny the Elder’s concerns about the dangers of sponges to handy tips to avoid assassination as a Roman emperor.

Our conversation allowed us to talk about the qualities that define ‘good’ and ‘bad’ emperors. And yes, Augustus and Tiberius were mentioned, but we kept it civil! LJ then took us through some of the characters who qualified as one of the WORST emperors, including Caligula, Didius Julianus, Silbannacus, and Petronius Maximus.

Image of Caligula, courtesy of Carole Raddato on Flickr.

You will definitely want to grab a copy of LJ’s book to hear about all the other terrible emperors of Rome after this episode. You should be able to pick up a copy at your local independent bookstore, as well as the usual corporate giants.  

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:55
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians I am Dr G

Dr Rad 1:03
and I am Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:05
and we are thrilled today to be sitting down and chatting with LJ Trafford. Now you may have heard of this author before. LJ Trafford studied ancient history at the University of Reading and is famous for her historical novel series the four emperors. These books cover a turbulent time in the early imperial period with Nero’s fall from power and from life in 68 CE and the subsequent chaos that followed in the year 69 LJ is also a contributor to the history girls blog, writing about all sorts of fascinating subjects involving the ancient world, from Pliny the elders’ concerns about the dangers of sponges to handy tips to avoid assassination as a Roman emperor, a goal to which maybe none of us aspire these days, but you never know, those of you out There, there are hints and tips for how to do it. In addition to this, LJ has published three accessible and immensely readable non fiction works on ancient Rome. How to survive in ancient Rome from 2020 sex and sexuality in ancient Rome, 2021, and most recently, ancient Rome’s worst emperors in 2023 and it is this latest work on those troublesome emperors that we’ll be discussing today. Thank you so much for joining us. LJ,

LJ Trafford 2:32
thank you so I’m delighted to be here. Huzzah. Huzzah,

Dr G 2:35
we’re very excited. This is a great topic, and I think there’s going to be some nice surprises in here for people as well. Oh, that’s good. So before we delve into some of the gruesome details, we’d like to start with your perspective on what makes people in power so fascinating. So some of these stories are told, and they’re retold many times, and yet we continue to return to them. And I’m interested in what makes them compelling. From your perspective,

LJ Trafford 3:05
I think from our perspective, I think our kind of politicians look slightly kind of impotent in comparison to kind of Roman emperors. You know, if you’ve got a parliamentary system, our kind of politicians are kind of curtailed, aren’t they, by kind of law, international laws and regulations, and used to be in Britain, certainly UK, European laws and regulations. And they’re also constrained by, you know, having an opposition party who might block everything they want to do. So you kind of vote for some your party, and they don’t fulfil their potential because they’re forever blocked and they and, you know, I think in most societies, there’s these kind of big, looming issues that nobody seems to want to deal with that just get kicked down the road as a can down the road for somebody else to pick up later. So I think kind of in comparison looking at Roman emperors, where somebody can just walk in and go, Hey, let’s just call September Germanicus, and then it’s done. And everybody does. I think there’s something quite compelling about somebody who can come in and just make a change and just say, I’ve decided today we’re going to do this, and it happens. And I think it kind of plays into that kind of childhood game of, what would I do if I ruled the world, kind of thing, that kind of imagining how you generally imagine that you’d be the benevolent dictator. You know, you never think you’re going to go the full Caligula, do you? But so I think in comparison, it kind of appeals for that. And I think also the stories that Roman historians have collected for us on the Emperors is what makes them so compelling, because they can collect all the worst bits and all the most kind of gruesome bits and all the most kind of sexy bits. So they they’ve created really the compelling story for us. It’s, you know, it’s not, it’s not a tale of kind of laws being passed and kind of dreary business. It’s all you know, who’s sleeping of who, who’s done the most outrageous thing, who’s decided, you know, to call every month after themselves, who’s built a, you know, 60 foot gold statue of themselves. So I think it’s that, I think that’s what compels us, just the the power, the ability of one man to decide so much and for people to to act on that. I think, I think we’d all like a kind of a horn to people around us. Just act on every whim, wherever that may be. I think that. I think that’s what makes them so attractive and makes us, yeah, I think it makes this question, what would we do if we had that power? Would we have a 60 foot gold statue of ourselves created?

Dr G 5:11
Definitely, the

LJ Trafford 5:13
answer is yes, of course. Why wouldn’t you? I know, why wouldn’t you name every month after yourself? Because you know you can, I

Dr Rad 5:22
must admit, I’m really enjoying the idea of you saying to someone like Donald Trump that he is impotent.

LJ Trafford 5:30
Oh, yes, I’d like to see his reaction to

Dr Rad 5:33
that. You feel impotent. Yes, exactly.

Dr G 5:38
I think he has aspirations in the Imperial sense, though, if he could be a Roman Emperor, I think he definitely would try. I think he

LJ Trafford 5:45
talks like one a lot, doesn’t he? He comes in as I’m a lot of his rhetoric on the previous election was, I’m the guy who can change this. It’s the eye. It’s not the we, the Republican Party, can come in and change Americans. I Donald Trump, I alone can clean out the swamp. I alone can do this. So he talks a bit like a Roman emperor, because it’s a it’s about him. It’s not about, you know, the kind of administration and their aims. It’s all about him. So, yeah, I can, I can see there’s a comparison there.

Dr Rad 6:11
Well, I think, I kind of think that’s why we are so intrigued by these sorts of figures, because we, in some ways, they seem so alien and different to us for exactly the reasons that you’ve outlined. But then when you look at some of the political figures of the 20th and 21st century that still loom very large, you can kind of see how they would enjoy that level of absolute power. And I think

LJ Trafford 6:34
there’s a kind of fascination, isn’t there, a bit recently, with kind of Putin and his kind of power, and lots of people in, kind of in America, which, you know, given that American Russians history, kind of admiring Putin, because he kind of does stuff as such. So whereas, opposed to their political system has maybe got a bit kind of paralysed in recent years, so there’s still this fascination of one man with with absolute power, I think. And I think, yeah, I think we look at our own times, and we forever looking back and comparing, aren’t we generally wrongly? It’s

Dr G 7:03
one of those dangers of the attraction of the strong man, isn’t it? It’s sense that it’s aligned with a kind of efficiency of purpose and outcomes which you just can’t get in the bureaucratic grind of day to day government.

LJ Trafford 7:17
Yeah, the danger of the strong man is when they stay too long, isn’t it, and then people forget what it was like before there was the strong man, and then they start to not appreciate the strong man. And then it all goes horribly wrong, the kind of thing. But

Dr Rad 7:28
yes, we’re not advocating dictatorship on those podcasts.

LJ Trafford 7:31
She just doesn’t like that. Not advocating dictation, not advocating, not advocating anything like that. We

Dr Rad 7:37
always have to make that very clear, you know, as Roman historians, because sometimes it sounds like we actually are getting swept up in Roman values.

LJ Trafford 7:46
I do not share any values of ancient Roman I can’t think of it

Dr Rad 7:50
exactly yes. So let’s talk about your book a little bit. You take the reader through the imperial period in the Roman West, and you provide examples from the first century all the way down to the fifth century, which means there’s a huge amount of ground to cover in your book, and it means that you have to be a bit selective about which emperors you focused on, but it is also an opportunity to draw attention to some emperors that are less well known, perhaps to general readership. So what kinds of qualities or defects were you keen to include that maybe helped you decide who you were going to focus on?

LJ Trafford 8:24
Yeah, kind of first of all, I probably naively didn’t realise what a huge task this was when I agreed to write this book. Because generally I get given a book title and a book brief, like, kind of sex and sexuality, and I get like the chapters, and they say, write a chapter on contraception, write a chapter on marriage, write a chapter on this. And I did the brief for this, and I kind of randomly said, Oh, I’m going to write about, you know, worst emperors, you know, over 500 years. And and then when I went to research it, I realised what a huge task is, how much reading there is. And then I thought, well, maybe I could do it by dynasty, and I’ll just pick, like, the worst one from each dynasty. And then I looked at, and there’s loads of dynasties, just like, far too much, you know. And I got a kind of, I got a work count of, like, 85,000 words. And there was no way I could pick an emperor from each dynasty and write about them in depth. And I wanted to go in depth on some and kind of pull them apart. So I had to kind of go back to drawing board and go, Okay, how am I going to choose these worst emperors? And I kind of took a few things into consider. I took Augustus’ Res Gestae, the kind of story of his life, because it’s quite a good blueprint for what a good emperor should be, because it’s all about I’m brilliant. This is what I did. This is what makes me brilliant. So I kind of took that, because he would talk about, I built this temple, I built this. I defeated this enemy. I did this. I brought in these laws. I gave this money to these soldiers. I gave so much to the people. So it gave me kind of blueprint of what a good emperor should be. And I took kind of Suetonius 12 Caesars as well to help a bit, because he he does a biography of the first 12 emperors. Well, the first 11 and Julius Caesar, we don’t count but, but he splits his biographies into they. Deeds and their bad deeds, which again, gave me a bit of a basis to have a look at what a good emperor should be doing and what a bad Emperor did. So I kind of used them vaguely as my kind of back blueprint for picking them. And then really, I chose ones that I thought were quite interesting as well, kind of randomly, but I wanted to show right across those 500 years show kind of how the role of Emperor changes and the kind of people holding it change as well. And I wanted to do, I wanted to look at some more unfamiliar ones, because it’s very easy to go, okay, worst emperors, and we just go, okay, Nero, Commodus, Elagabalus, and the kind of the usual people. And I wanted to, kind of, I wanted to find out some more about some different ways in which you could be a worst emperor that didn’t necessarily involve kind of sexual depravity and kind of spending lots of money and excess. Because, you know, that I thought as a book, it would get a bit samey, if that’s like every chapter, oh yeah, and they bankrupted the Treasury. Next chapter, oh yes, and he bankrupted the Treasury. Next Oh yes. Incest with who, you know, Mother, incest, sister, you know, I thought it’d be a bit samey, so I wanted to pull out some kind of alternative ways where people could be worst. And I found, you know, numerous ones where they, you know, they didn’t have these kind of big personalities, like the kind of colleagues and the Neros of the world, but actually, they got the top job, and they just, they just weren’t very good at it, and they just weren’t up to it, you know. And there’s a series of people who kind of become emperor, and at the first sign, the first kind of, kind of barrier, they first the first problem they face, they just completely fold, which I thought was quite interesting. So it was a whole series of people who kind of got the job and then realised they weren’t good enough, which is that, you know, I think must be a terrible realisation that you’re like, I’m emperor, wow, and everybody’s praising you, and you suddenly realise I’m not good enough. I can’t cope with this. And there’s no kind of like, no resign, and there’s no like, handing in your month’s notice again, sorry, chaps, not the job I thought it was going to be, you know, I’ll let somebody else do it. You know, that’s not how you stop being an emperor. You stop being an emperor because somebody kills you, basically, or you die naturally. So there’s no resigning. So yeah, I was looking for kind of people like that, people other reasons why you might be worse. And I think, yeah, not having the qualities you need to be an emperor is certainly one. Being weak is certainly one, not being the kind of strong one. And, yeah, just being kind of ineffectual, being promoted above your kind of ability level and and I thought that was a more interesting way to pull people out. And it pulled out some emperors that I hadn’t, didn’t really know much about, apart from just their names, people like kind of Valentinian the second and kind of Gordian. It pulled out some more interesting people I wanted to have a look at and explore a bit further in detail. But yes, I mean, it’s a bit it’s a book to for people to debate. And I was thinking that I was going to get a lot of a lot of them shouting at me for including various emperors or not including various emperors. And various ones didn’t get in because I, you know, had 85,000 word counts. So some got cut out. And, yeah, some got included because I wanted to write about them, because I thought they were quite interesting. So people like Domitian, I don’t necessarily think he was terrible emperor, but I think he’s a good illustration of what being Emperor does to you, in a sense, the paranoia and that what you have to do as emperor in the sense of holding on to power, and how the actual kind of things that came with being Emperor for Domitian are the things that kind of undid him. So he, you know, his paranoia gets worse and worse and worse, and he kind of undoes himself. So I thought he was an interesting one to look at as to what kind of being, what being Emperor does to you, does to your mindset, and can lead you down a worse path that you wouldn’t necessarily have followed had you been, I don’t know, a bit of a stronger character or less paranoid, but it deservedly paranoid. You know, he got assassinated. So you could say he was deservedly paranoid. So

Dr Rad 13:48
I was going to say that, you know, the saying is, it’s not really paranoia if they’re actually out to get you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:54
I think Domitian even said Himself to me that nobody believed in conspiracies unless they were successful. So he was, you know, he was well aware of it.

Dr Rad 14:03
Listening to you talk about that, it again, gives me some sort of modern vibes with people like Louis XVI and Nicholas II, who kind of knew from the get go that they weren’t up to the job and didn’t turn out too well for either of them, either,

Dr G 14:19
certainly. But yeah, there’s a lot to be said for character. Isn’t there? Because for somebody liked mission, perhaps, like, if he had never gotten into that job, chances are he would have lived a perfectly regular kind of elite Roman life. And yet, being thrust into power sort of brought out all of those characteristics in him that maybe he didn’t have a good chance to manage on his own, and then all of a sudden, here we are, and he’s assassinated. Yeah? I mean, he’s

LJ Trafford 14:45
very, you know, he would have, yeah, lived a good Roman elite life. He was a tremendous administrator, a tremendous guy for the details guy. So you can imagine he’d be the guy you’d want on every committee, because he’d, you know, you’d pull out all the details you hadn’t thought of, like, oh, cool, cool. Thanks to mission. Thanks. Yeah, forgotten about that. Gotten about that. That’s really important. But yeah, I mean, he’s paranoia probably built before then, because, you know, he was involved in the year 69 CE, and can thrust to the forefront there. So he’s paranoid probably started in his teenage years, when his father was declared emperor, and his father is in, you know, Syria so safely out the way of Rome. And Domitian, who’s only about 18 at the time, is in Rome, and he’s the kind of the front of the kind of Flavian dynasty. So everything’s kind of centred on him. So I think he’s kind of paranoia probably started from that moment there watching kind of emperors fall and rise right in front of his eyes. But, but, yeah. But I think being emperor, yeah, didn’t improve upon his kind of personality. Probably brought out the kind of worst in him, and that he’s a good example of, you know what you do to try and hold on to power, and his attempts to hold on to power completely undoing. Because the more extreme he becomes, the more plots there are. And then there’s a successful one, and you only need one to be successful. Yes, the

Dr G 16:02
dangers, yeah. And I think this sets up nicely, thinking about the first emperor that you discuss in the book, which is Caligula, which, I mean, it would be hard to pass him over, I think, because he’s almost like the what would be the word

Dr Rad 16:21
the OG terrible,

Dr G 16:24
the OG terrible, yes, the OG terrible emperor, because we’ve kind of got this blueprint that’s kind of offered by Augustus through the Reyes guest. Then we’ve got the struggle street that is Tiberius, who’s really trying to sort of make it happen. Is maybe not quite sure whether he really wants it, but he still seems pretty competent overall. I think that’s a compliment for you. Dr, rad. And then we get Caligula, and he seems to have some pretty devastating qualities that do make him unfit for rule. And I’m interested in what stands out for you when you’re thinking about caligula’s life and his reign. Yeah, he’s

LJ Trafford 17:04
a, yeah, he’s a kind of poster boy of what you would think of as a worst emperor. He’s a kind of shorthand, you know, even today, for what worst Emperor is. You know, anyone who goes slightly extreme is going, Oh, it’s all going a bit Caligula. He’s become that kind of shorthand. He’s like, you say, he’s the first kind of Emperor who’s really kind of unqualified for the job, in the sense of Augustus. Had, you know, this way, created the role of Emperor, though it’s not really a role, it’s kind of nebulous, a nebulous thing, but he created that, and he’d, you know, he’d fought civil wars, he’d held, you know, government posts, he’d got a big and long kind of background in in kind of administration. So he, you can say he was kind of qualified to do that. And Tiberius coming in his emperor in his 50s, he’s got a long history of, you know, being in the military and and holding public position. So again, he’s a very qualified person. And we have colleague who comes in at 25 and he hasn’t got that kind of background, he hasn’t got that kind of training, and he’s the kind of the last minute heir to who suddenly decided upon so I think he goes in with the kind of disadvantage of not knowing how things work. Probably he goes in with the advantage of a lot of public support, because he’s the son of Germanicus and Agrippina, who were very, very popular with the people, and who his father, Germanicus, had died when he was very young, and Agrippina had been exiled by Tiberius and later, kind of killed. So he goes in with a lot of good feeling. But yeah, I think, I think it stands out with kind of Caligula, is there’s a kind of a pushing of how far he can take things. And maybe that’s because, you know, as we said, he hasn’t. He’s got that kind of unqualified feel about it. He’s pushing what the word Emperor means and what he can do with it. And underlying it always is this kind of sense of hum, a kind of a very dark sense of humour that comes out in some of the things he does, you know, kind of famous joke about, oh, I’m going to make my horse a senator, you know, kind of disparaging the whole senatorial class and and, you know, on the crawler stage, you know, there was equestrian he was thrown to the beasts and was protesting his innocence, so Caligula had him taken out of the arena. Guy probably thinks he’s going to be saved instead, he has his tongue cut out and thrown back in with the beasts. So this is kind of sick, kind of humour and kind of delight in kind of pushing what it means to be emperor and what he can do, you know, to the extent of wanting to put his, um, his statue in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, which does not go down well. And in the extent of, you know, he doesn’t dress like an ordinary mortal. We’re told he dresses in very fine clothing. Um, he’s kind of, kind of crossing the boundaries of what’s acceptable in Roman society, kind of sex wise. And like we’re saying, kind of clothing wise. So you know, sex wise, he’s breaking all the taboos, all the things you shouldn’t do. He allegedly held dinner parties where he would with senators and their wives, where he would take their wives away, have sex with them, and then take them back to their husbands and give. Long kind of die trait on how great or bad they were in bed, and that kind of thing, that kind of pushing the envelope of, you know, sleeping obviously, with freeborn women is not, not acceptable if they’re married. He’s he’s kind of pushing and pushing what he how, how much he can get away with almost, and when somebody’s going to say no. And that kind of spreading of kind of terror and humiliation. You know, famously invited a group of people at the dead of night to the palace Who all think they’re going to be executed, and then he just does a little dance for them and sends them home. So there’s this kind of, there’s a kind of thing about pushing the envelope and kind of torment and humiliation and enjoying that, that kind of runs through kind of Caligula reign that he enjoys exercising this power, and he enjoys the effect it has on people, and he enjoys watching, you know, people being tortured, etc, which we can kind of say all kind of stems from a very, very troubled childhood, to put it mildly, where he’d watched his family being picked off one by one around him by the Praetorian prefecture, Janus. So his mother had been exiled and died horribly, and his brother, two brothers, had been exiled and died horribly. And he was kind of next on the list and was saved and then becomes the kind of heir to the to the guy, Tiberius, who’s bumped off his family and is sent to kind of live with him on Capri, the island of Capri where Tiberius has kind of retired to and is forced to kind of keep up this front of being nice to Tiberius whilst knowing what he’s done to his family. So you can kind of see, with that kind of troubled background that it might make you slightly slightly unhinged, and when given the opportunity to kind of take revenge on those senators who signed those kind of those papers that damned his family, you could kind of see that he would kind of push it as far as he could go. Well,

Dr Rad 21:47
that’s definitely the thing, I think that always is intriguing about Caligula, because when you as you say, look at the actions that are recorded, it seems like no question this is a bad guy, but there is that possibility that he is specifically targeting a group of people who have legitimately caused him a lot of pain and grief in his life, and that that’s where this comes from, and this is him sort of unleashing all of that pent up aggression that may have been building up for years and years because The drama of his family is unfolding throughout his entire childhood.

LJ Trafford 22:23
Yeah, I think it’s true. I think there seems to be a point at which he realises and he comes in as a kind of the darling of the Roman people, and they call him chicken and Sweetie, and, you know, the senses he preys upon him. And there seems to be a point when he realises that they don’t mean it, that this is just words and words being thrown at him. And from that kind of point on, yeah, he starts to kind of target them deliberately, deliberately to humiliate them. And, yeah, I think you’re right. I think it is that kind of pent up rage that you know, when the kind of wool is lifted from these eyes, when there’s a plot and he realises these people don’t love him, they don’t adore him. He Yeah, it’s revenge, and it’s revenge against them and and you can kind of see that kind of unfolding, and he’s and obviously the people writing the history are the kind of senatorial class, so any kind of humiliation or kind of undermining of them is going to rank very personally with their kind of personal pride. I mean, Augustus was the one who walked that kind of tightrope between keeping the Senate on side and happy and feeling like they’re in power whilst not actually having much power anymore. And Caligula kind of can’t do that, and won’t do that. He won’t pretend. He won’t work with them. He won’t pretend that they have the power. He is the one with the power, and he unleashes it on them. So, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s revenge, isn’t it? Really, it

Dr G 23:41
does seem like that, yeah. I think it creates a sense of empathy as well for him, this idea that he’s operating primarily from a position of pain, yeah, and thinking about that trauma of his childhood, and then how that sort of manifests when he has the opportunity. And I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I think some of the obviously, he did terrible things, but all of a sudden you’re kind of like, okay, this is somebody who’s gone through incredible amounts of hurt and frustration, and now they’re in a situation where they have the opportunity to make a choice about how they navigate that, and no one can stop them.

LJ Trafford 24:19
Yeah, that’s, that’s the kind of frightening thing about illegally. Yeah, no one can stop him. And you know, the person who does stop him is not one of these senators who’s been targeting. It’s not a Brutus character who makes a grandstand, you know, for liberty and all this. It’s um, one of his guards because he made fun of his voice. It’s, you know, it’s a very personal assassination. And this guard had got a very high pitched, slightly girly voice, so Caligula had been giving him ever more kind of embarrassing kind of watch words, you know, something like Venus or something like that, evermore kind of just taking the mickey out of him, and he’s the one that kind of snaps and sets up a plot against him. It’s not actually the kind of Senators with grand noble. Lofty ambitions to rid themselves of a tyrant. They don’t kind of turn against him, because, I guess it’s the fear factor. And, you know, going back to Domitian, you can kind of see that, because we have the writings of Pliny and Tacitus, who served a mission, you know, and both of both of whom did very well under Domitian and got promoted, and, you know, moved up the ranks. But they give us an insight into what it’s like to kind of serve an emperor who’s, you know, who is that kind of, not great, you know, it’s terrifying. It’s terrifying to stand in a room and face them when they lose their temper. And I think for Caligula, it must be even more terrifying, because there’s no limits to what he might do. It seems he could do anything. And he does, you know, his whole kind of military campaigns, where they go, think it’s to Germany, and there’s nobody to fight. So they just get some people to hide in the forest for him to capture so he can have his own triumph, you know, the kind of thing. So the it feels like there’s no, kind of no limits to what he will do. But they still don’t turn because they’re just too, too frightened, I guess. But, but, yeah, I mean, it’s coming It’s coming, it’s coming from his child, it’s coming from pain, and it’s full out revenge and, you know, and it works, yeah?

Dr Rad 26:06
Well, I mean, I suppose comparing him to Augustus and Tiberius, again, they’ve both obviously experienced their own pains and setbacks in their lives, but you don’t get the sense that they were ever shielded from that. They kind of grew up in a very sort of realpolitik kind of world, whereas Caligula, because he was so young when things started going wrong for his family, and then you have that allusion to the papers that he had access to when he became emperor, it’s almost as though he maybe did not know the full extent of complicity potentially, in this senatorial class, and you know, people who were involved in powerful circles against his family, and maybe he was sort of kept a bit in the dark, and it wasn’t until he became emperor that he sort of had the wall lifted from his eyes. And maybe that’s partly where this, this pain and sense of revenge comes from, the fact that he maybe didn’t have the full picture, and then all of a sudden, you know, it was kind of like this light, light bulb going off, and he’s like, oh, okay, so this is how it all went down. And this is who really testified against my mother, and this is what really happened. Yeah, I

LJ Trafford 27:16
think you’re absolutely right, because I think, you know, when you read the sources, you know, the person who gets responsibility for the death of all colleague of his family, oh, it’s also Janus fault. You know, there’s this kind of thing. Sejanus is executed, and then, you know, everybody’s kind of like, oh, yeah, nothing to do with us. It was, yeah, it was Sejanus. He did everything. He did everything. Everything is blamed on him, and he’s dead, conveniently dead, so he can be that kind of scapegoat. But, yeah, the papers show that it you know, Sejanus didn’t act alone. He needed people to sign things. He needed things to get passed. And they, they did, and they, they aided the death of his family. And I think you possibly right that he maybe didn’t know. Maybe he he was shielded from it being so young and be and was probably told, Oh, it was sejana. Sejanus bumped off your family with Tiberius. They’re the villains in this piece, and the wool is lifted from his eyes with these kind of papers, and kind of finally realising that these, these are the people who are involved in it as well. Well, that’s

Dr Rad 28:11
why it’s so interesting, because listeners of this podcast will be aware that I have a slight fondest for Tiberius, and one of the things that I have been struck by is that Caligula actually doesn’t seem to have that much of a grudge against Tiberius, which you think he would if Tiberius was really the man he held to be responsible for the downfall of his of his entire family, ultimately, as the Emperor during that time. You know, there are serious some digs. There are some comments, but he also seems to admire Tiberius. Yeah, there are also some positive things that come out of that. So it’s, it’s kind of a weird relationship that those two must have have, but I certainly never get the sense that he truly hated Tiberius. No,

LJ Trafford 28:55
it doesn’t, yeah, like you say, it doesn’t come out much. There’s not, kind of like a complete damning of Tiberius memory and, you know, kind of ripping up statues as what happens of Emperor’s kind of deaths, you know, he kind of keeps it, keeps it going, yeah, yeah, I would grieve you. It doesn’t seem to be the hatred. It doesn’t, yeah. I’m trying to think, no, what he says about Tiberius is not much that comes out of you,

Dr Rad 29:17
like, as you say, dark jokes that. But he says that kind of stuff about everybody,

Dr G 29:21
and they did spend some time together, so they would have had a personal relationship. So I imagine that would play into it for him as well.

LJ Trafford 29:33
Maybe he was won round by Tiberius’ winning personality though, Tiberius was not well known for his kind of winning kind of charm. And I

Dr G 29:41
was gonna say charisma is not really strong suit

Dr Rad 29:45
in the charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent. I think he only has the last two. So let’s move along now to one of my other favourites, because I love movies, love gladiator so we of course. Us have to go all the way down to Commodus, who ruled between 180 to 192 he’s been made very famous by Joaquin Phoenix, okay, and I think we can get sort of Caligula vibes from that portrayal in Gladiator. But not many people would be aware that actually, right after him, there was some pretty dud emperors as well. So let’s get into one that I bet nobody’s heard of before, Didius Julianus. What made him so terrible, Didius

LJ Trafford 30:30
Julianus is a joy. We have to say that gladiator kind of underplays, Commodus, somewhat Commodus is way more extreme than anything they ever showed on screen Gladiator, yeah, but I suppose that’s down to you know, the whole thing Commodus is very big on the beast hunts, and he’s doing decapitate ostriches with kind of curved arrows, which the Romans loved. But today, in our kind of animal loving society, possibly wouldn’t go down so well as a film. So they glossed over a lot of that. But yes, after Commodus is assassinated, there’s a guy who steps in, who’s a guy called Pertinax, who is an older, older guy. As what seems to happen after a lot of assassinations and dodgy times in ancient Rome, you tend to get a kind of older person who kind of steps in as a kind of safe pair of hands. Afternoon goes. You have, you have Galba, who’s in his 70s, who’s held a lot of positions. He’s very well esteemed. He kind of steps in, you know, after Domitian is assassinated, we have Nerva, who’s similarly elder statesman, who steps in. And after Commodus, we have Pertinax, who’s that kind of older statesman who kind of steps in and to everybody’s and he starts to mop up what come with us is left, which is a big old mess. And everybody says he’s doing a really great job, and everybody’s very happy with personax, and the Praetorian Guard assassinate him pretty quickly into his reign.

Dr G 31:51
So he was, he was going all right with everybody else, but not with the people with the swords. Yeah.

LJ Trafford 31:57
And the reasons given are kind of one that they couldn’t because Pertinax was a very good emperor, they couldn’t profiteer in various ways, unspecified ways, that they had been under Commodus. And secondly, that their Praetorian Prefect, Clarus wasn’t a very good keeper of secrets, and this was their kind of justification for murder.They burst into the palace, and you know, Pertinax gave a series of arguments of why they shouldn’t assassinate him. And some of them were, you know, pretty good well. They were all pretty good arguments. And some of the guard were a bit, well, yeah, he’s right, you know, but they killed him anyway,

Dr G 32:31
because maybe we should let him live. I’m quite persuaded

LJ Trafford 32:34
by that argument. But we’ve come all this way. We’ve burst in, we’ve got our swords out. We may as well well, you know, as well. Now we’re here do what we set out to do. It’s the kind of least well thought out assassination in history, probably because they have no idea who’s going to take over. They haven’t planned it beyond we’ll just kill pertinax and then something will happen. I don’t know if they’re hoping the Senate will step in and appoint an emperor, but what happens is that most of Senators suddenly disappear to their country estates, I presume, to get out the way because they don’t want to be picked as emperor. The people who like pertinax, are rioting so much so the Praetorian Guard have to then go hide in their barracks up on the rumen or Hill, with kind of riots going on outside. So it’s a big old mess. And obviously the patron Guard are the Emperor’s private bodyguard and no emperor, no Emperor’s private bodyguard. So they need to find a new emperor. So they hit upon this scheme of, um, selling it. They’ll sell the post of Emperor to the highest bidder. People can come bid, and then they can become emperor. Which is, um, to

Dr G 33:37
our shiny auction guys, is going to be great. Which is the kind

LJ Trafford 33:42
of lowest? I mean, the Pretorian God have been the kind of Kim makers for a long time. They’ve helped people into the role of Emperor, and they’ve helped people out of it, shall we say, with swords. But this is the kind of lowest they sink. They’re kind of like we’re going to sell it to the highest bidder. And this kind of word reaches various people, and it reaches a dinner party, which a certain Didius Julianus is attending. And I’m assuming it’s towards the end of this dinner party when everybody is a bit tipsy, because it’s really the only, only explanation for what follows. And everybody’s Dinner Party says, Hey, DidiusJulianus, why don’t you go for it? Why don’t you go bid to be emperor? Come on, you’d be great in it. And he, you know, he’s got a pretty good background. He’s done all the relevant positions, and looked after Belgium for a while, and he was favoured by Marcus Aurelius. So he comes across on paper as not too bad, but yeah, listening to these kind of people at the dinner party, he thinks, yeah, why not? I’m going to be emperor. So they all chopped off, working their way through these riots that are going on somehow, up to the kind of touring barracks and stands outside, and he says, I want to be emperor. I’ll offer you all this money. And I think, I think the killer line is he offers the Pretorian Guard more gold than they had asked for and more gold than they expected.

Dr Rad 34:52
That sounds like a lot, an awful lot, which

LJ Trafford 34:55
should have sounded fishy, because the Praetorian Guard are notorious for demanding payment. Huge. Kind of bounties that don’t actually exist after Nero kind of died, and the Praetorian guard Nymphidius Sabinus demanded 30,000 sesterces for each one of his guards off Galba. They didn’t have the money for that. You know, there was no money to pay them. So they were renowned for asking for more than, you know, the most physically possible. But the fact that Julianus is promised to them more than they even expected, you know, should ring alarm bells that this is a bit fishy, but they they were just delighted, and they hauled him up into the Praetorian barracks and declared him emperor. You know, job done. Brilliant. Got new emperor. It’s all sorted. Only problem is, didis Juliana’s didn’t have that money. He didn’t have the money to pay them. He didn’t have the money to buy the emperorship. He was pretty much broke. It was all it was all bravado and wine. One has to assume,

Dr G 35:47
I was gonna say, maybe he’s been put up to it like, as the dinner party has progressed, people have been like, you know, pushing each other forward, and in the end, like he’s the one they all get behind. And he feels he has to go with it. I don’t know, but it seems like madness. It

LJ Trafford 36:01
seems like madness. And you have to wonder what he thought when he woke up the next day with a kind of killer hangover. I was like, What did I do? What did I say? And it comes back, it kind of flashbacks. Maybe, you know, kind of, oh yeah, I was at that party. Then what, what, you know, wakes up, maybe in the palace, where am I? And then suddenly realises that, you know, he’s emperor, the

Dr Rad 36:20
equivalent of the 90s, late night shopping via credit card, over the telephone, ordering, ordering sets of Ginsu knives and that sort of thing.

LJ Trafford 36:30
Yeah. What did I do last night? Oh, I brought the role of Emperor. Um, so he’s now emperor, which doesn’t go down well with anybody, because, um, everybody liked person act. So the people are still, when he goes down to, you know, be officially ratified, the people are kind of throwing stones at his head, you know. So from day one, I usually have to work to be unpopular, to be a Roman emperor, you know, Caligula, it took five years for it to completely unravel. You know, Commodus, it took many years to unravel. But from day one, you know, Julius did the honest is being kind of booed by the people, and there’s still riots going on and and then he finds out that in the provinces, several other people have declared themselves emperor as well. So he’s also, it’s another kind of oops moment, equivalent to kind of Otho after Galba, after he assassinated Galba you know, jogging up to the palace, the slaves hand him the correspondence. And, you know, he finds out there’s another emperor in Germany marching his direction, and you know, so Julianus is facing not one, but several. He’s got Septimius, Severus, and he’s got Niger, and I’m going to forget the other guy’s name. There’s no one. There’s three of them, and they’re all declared themselves emperor, and they’re all going to be heading his direction, all right,

Dr G 37:38
so he’s got some competition on his hands, on a number of fronts, it’s going to be a problem, good,

LJ Trafford 37:43
promise. So this is a point at which, you know, this is the point at which you find out what emperors are made of, what a man is made of. You’re facing adversity. Everybody hates you. You could turn this round. You could, you know, he’s got he’s got the background, he’s got the experience. He could turn this round. But he doesn’t. I think Herodian describes him as dumb and witless. He did not know how to resolve the situation. So he sends off um several envoys to me, Severus who, um, promptly changed sides, um. And this keeps happening. He keeps sending people to, you know, kind of negotiate with these other would be emperors. And they decide, Oh, this guy’s going to be a better one than Didius Julianus. And they stay so he keeps losing more of his army each time he tries to make situation better, he decides to have an army of elephants in Rome, and he puts except the elephants aren’t very well trained, and they don’t like their drivers, and they just keep tossing off the drivers that are riding them. So that doesn’t work. Cassius, Dio, who’s in he’s a senator at the time, is and he’s there in Rome, says the Senate were frequently overcome with laughter at kind of Didius Julianus’ attempts to kind of secure the city. So, yeah, everything he tries, just fails miserably. And Septimius Severus comes into Rome, bursts into, you know, the palace, and you know, he’s, he’s off, basically, he doesn’t last very long, but I think he definitely is up there with the worst emperor, just just for being, just for the way he became emperor shows moral fibre,

Dr G 39:15
that whole process of being like, well, if It’s for sale, yeah, I’ll buy.

LJ Trafford 39:22
I can do this.

Dr Rad 39:23
I think Duddius Julianus sounds like a better way of remembering him.

LJ Trafford 39:29
Just, and just yeah, just everything he tries is ridiculous and doesn’t work, and he can’t inspire loyalty in his own troops, in his own envoys, who are going off to negotiate. They’re kind of like, Oh yeah, you know, they’re very easily swayed by the other side. Yeah, you’re right. Probably we’ll stay here. I will stay here. So, yeah, it’s, it’s unintentionally hilarious, although Cassius Dio says it was hilarious, but he’s just not up to the job he failed. You know, he’s facing a difficult situation. Yeah, that would test any man, but he does not at all rise to the occasion. And. And produce anything of any work. It

Dr G 40:01
is a real challenge in this situation as well, because we’re dealing with the late second century, and by this stage, if you do not have, like, pretty strong military support, it’s very hard to sustain a power position. And Didius Julianus goes in and doesn’t have anybody at best, he’s got the Praetorian Guard, and then he has to build from there. And so that’s a bit of an issue, I’d say, because everybody else who’s coming at him from all of those different angles, have supported the troops. They’ve been elevated as Imperator from that sort of idea of the general ship being the basis of imperial power. And he doesn’t, and I, I wonder what he thinks, you say at best,

LJ Trafford 40:46
he’s got the Praetorian girl. This is the same Pretorian gone. He’s, he’s promised money to that he doesn’t have. So they don’t, yeah, exactly. He doesn’t even have them, you know, whereas, you know, someone like Otho was able, you know, against vastly superior odds, was able to inspire he had a ramshackle army of praetorian guards, new recruits and Gladiators, but they loved him, and he had the charisma, and he rose to the occasion, and he kept fighting for as long as he could against vastly overwhelming odds. Whereas Didius Julianus, he doesn’t have that same charisma. Clearly, he can’t get an army together. He hasn’t got any great ideas, and he’s got, even the elephants

are against him. But, I mean, it’s, I mean, that just sounds ridiculous. I didn’t argue with elephants as if that’s gonna stop, you know,

Dr G 41:33
I do like it, though it’s got that very, sort of, like, you know, what would work a real hark back to the days of Carthage and, like, you know, the Punic triumphs and things like this. So I can see where, like, the attraction might be in that idea. But obviously, you need to train those elephants quite well for them to be effective,

LJ Trafford 41:51
yeah, just, you know, they may as well have just said, Oh, it’s just cities, cats on them. Get cat on. It’ll work.

Dr G 42:02
That is an underrated, yeah.

LJ Trafford 42:07
Probably be more fate of elephants, I

Dr G 42:09
think, yeah. So we’ve got this sort of, like chaotic and short rule of Didius Julianus. And in a way, you would think that maybe nothing could top that. But then we get to one of the most intriguing emperors. And there is so little to be known about this guy that it’s it is worth mentioning. And I think you pronounce his name, Silbannacus. Silbannacus rules for a really, really short time. And this is in the third the mid third century CE so and this is a pretty unstable time for the Roman emperorship in general. There’s a whole lot of turnover when it comes to this top job. And I’m interested in what we know about Silbannacus, and how does he earn his place as a worst emperor? Well,

LJ Trafford 43:01
what do we know about Silbannacus? Almost nothing about Silbannacus. What we know about him comes from two coins that have been found, one in the 1930s and one in the 1980s and that is all the evidence we have for him ever being emperor. It doesn’t appear anywhere else now. You I mean, this could debate whether you usurp or was he an emperor, but looking at the coins, they look as if they’ve got similarities to coins that were minted in Rome. So they think he must have had some kind of ratification with Rome to be an emperor. But this is all we know about him. And it’s kind of like, how little do you have to do that nobody remembers you.

Dr G 43:40
Nobody remembers you. You don’t get mentioned in a written source that we know at all

Dr Rad 43:45
bitch about you. Yeah,

LJ Trafford 43:49
this is the kind of the crisis of the third century where we get Emperor after Emperor after emperor, and the kind of average rule of reign is something like 1.3 years or whatever. But they do all get a mention, at least for the way they died, or, you know, at least that they how they became emperor and how they died. Most of them get a mention, but he doesn’t appear anywhere. So I have to think, you know how insignificant a ruler you were, that nobody even cares how you died, even, you know. I mean, did he, yeah, was it a pleasure, you know, did was it a natural death, maybe, and that’s why it’s not worth recording. Or was it, was he assassinated by his own troops? Was he, you know, people care so little that it’s not recorded anywhere. And that’s kind of, I call him the book. I call him the Phantom Emperor because we were, you know, we’ve only known about him since the 20th century. But he makes his place as kind of worst Emperor because he’s so insignificant, so so nothing. He can’t have done anything of any note, not even died in any way of any note. Not even become emperor in any way of any note, because nobody notes it down, not even in passing, or, you know, in any other kind of document. When we may yet dig up a big chest somewhere in France and find, you know, all of all of this entire. Life story for all we know, but at this point in time, we know nothing about him. And I think if you leave that little imprint as emperor, then yeah, what was the point of you being emperor? You know, if a tree falls in wood and nobody hears it, did it ever fall? If you exactly nobody heard of it, were you ever emperor? And yeah, I wanted to include him, just because it just shows how reliant we are in certain periods on archaeological evidence, because there isn’t written evidence, because everything’s very chaotic. And yeah, I just think if nobody even records how you died or how you became emperor, you just you can’t have been any good. You must have been getting

Dr Rad 45:37
older. Yeah, it is kind of hard to believe that you could have someone who was emperor of the Roman world. And no details, nothing,

LJ Trafford 45:47
yeah, nothing, yeah. I find it. I find that staggering. And so I wanted to include him, just to show that, you know, it’s so chaos in the fifth century, you could become emperor. Nobody can

Dr G 45:58
notice. It’s also that sort of thing that makes me sort of start to speculate as well, where I think Did he sort of preemptively get some coins done up, but then died before he actually became emperor, like he was getting prepared for it. He knew it was coming, and then he died in the interim? Did he rule for like, two days or something like this? And something happened all of a sudden there was sort of outside of anybody’s control. But you would think even then, that might generate some sort of story that historians at the time would be interested in. And yet, nothing,

LJ Trafford 46:31
nothing. Yeah, it’s just yeah, it’s just Tumbleweed. Yeah, just just Tumbleweed. And like I said, that is intriguing itself. Why? Why do they not mention him? You know, maybe there is a an interesting mystery at the heart of that, but we will never know what it is unless there is a sudden discovery of a new coin that all kind of document explains everything,

Dr G 46:50
all right, archaeologists, the task has been set.

LJ Trafford 46:54
We need to know.

Dr Rad 46:56
So let’s now turn to the final emperor that makes the cut in your book, and that is Petronius Maximus, who, I think sounds like a delicious cocktail, but he holds power in 455, CE, he rates a description in your book as an evil genius. So we have to know what makes him both of those things, evil and a genius.

LJ Trafford 47:22
He’s a fascinating fellow, Petronius Maximus, because he he was one of those guys who seems to be very, very successful everything he turned his hand at he was brilliant. He’d held every single post possible. He’d had been in consul twice because he was so good at it. He was renowned for his dinner parties and for his literary pursuits. He was a man right at the top of his career, a man who’d done everything except being emperor and this. And the problem is, there already is an emperor at this time, a guy called Valentinian in the third who, um, he’s only in his 30s, I think, at this point. So he’s not likely to drop dead anytime soon. And there, and there are other people who are maybe a little bit more well respected than Petronius Maximus, but only just. There’s a general called Flavius Aetius, who’s very famous general who’s defeated Attila the Hun, no less, and so is held in very high esteem by Valentin the third. And is kind of intermarriage between those families. But for some reason, Petronius Maximus decides he wants to become emperor. And there’s kind of two, there’s kind of two stories behind this. One is that it’s revenge, because Valentine the third slept with his wife, or something like that. It’s all very vague and confusing. And the other is that he, he was just, he just wanted the crown. It was the one thing he hadn’t done. And I kind of, I kind of get it there. I get this because, yeah, I think, you know, as a writer, when you start writing, you kind of think, Oh, if I can just get published, that’s all I want. I just want to get my book published. And then that, you know, I’ll feel fulfilled then. And then it’s like, I just want one person to like my book, and then I’ll feel fulfilled. And then, you know, and then it goes on to, well, I want merchandise and a theme park based on my books, you know, an HBO 20 part TV series. And I want you kind of your ambitions grow with every small step you take, your ambitions grow. So I do kind of get why he thought he wanted to be emperor. But he goes about this in a very clever way. So the first thing he does is he gets um Flavius Aetius, a very famous general out of the way so he can step further closer to the throne. And he does this, and he’s not involved, and he doesn’t do the actual getting rid of Flavius Aetius. He somehow gets Valentinian, the third the Emperor, to kill Flavius Aetius. And it happens very suddenly. Aetiust is in a meeting, and it’s just an ordinary meeting about budgets and budgetary concerns and the finances and probably troop deployment, and just a general normal meeting, when suddenly the Emperor gets out his sword and goes running full pelte at Aetius and just murders him there and then in the middle of a meeting.

Dr Rad 49:54
That’s so Roman. That’s so Roman

LJ Trafford 49:57
with the help of his kind of standby eunuch as well, and they just hack him to death, you know, in the middle of a meeting. Oh,

Dr G 50:03
which is guys,

LJ Trafford 50:05
I mean, you know, I mean, we all know these meetings are boring about budgets and that, but made it a bit more exciting, it does

Dr Rad 50:12
give a whole meaning to the idea of cutting the budget.

LJ Trafford 50:18
So the prelude to this is Petronius Maximus, has spent a long time talking to Valentinian the third and kind of building up Aetius as a traitor, of somebody who was looking to overthrow him, who was a danger to him. And because Aetius was very popular, because he’s a very successful general. And so Valentinian the third, you know, is maybe quite right to be a bit worried about this. And it’s built up, and it’s built up, and his paranoia built up to this bit where he murders atheists, and so that gets him a bit closer to the throne. And then the next stage is getting rid of the Emperor himself. And this is made easier by Valentinian the third having killed Aetius because Aetius was very popular. So there was people there that he could hire or persuade to kill the Emperor because they wanted revenge. So it was a couple of guys who’d serve Aetius, who persuades to murder Valentinian the third, which they do, take him out, I think it’s a hunting trip, and they stab him to death, and that’s the end of him. So again, Petronius Maximus is not involved in this. He hasn’t got his hands dirty at all. So Valentinian the third is now dead, but it doesn’t naturally go to Petronius Maximus. He still has to bribe his way into power. So he still has to bribe a load of people, and then he’s made emperor. So he’s basically been made Emperor by offering two people and not getting his hands dirty at all. He’s got other people to do it for him, which is where, you know, like, kind of super, like a kind of Bond villain, you know, kind of sitting there with his minions doing the work for him. He’s managed to do, he’s managed to assassinate someone without getting his hands dirty and without being involved, and now he’s emperor. And you think that’s a very clever way of doing it, because he’s nobody’s blaming him for the death of both of those people. He’s got away with it, and he’s emperor, and then this rule just completely falls apart, like just overnight, so quickly and so disappointingly. Because you think, if he’s that clever, that he’s managed to get himself to this position by getting other people to his dirty work for him, you think, Oh, he’s going to be great emperor. He’s going to have lots of ideas. But he’s in a moment when he gets there, he’s not actually up to the job, and, oh no, he makes a fundamental error. And what he does is he marries um Valentinian the third’s wife, widow, widow, which now is widow, which she’s not happy about and also, also not happy about. This is the king of the vandals, um, whose name I’m probably going to butcher, Geiseric, because they’ve been, they’ve been, um, all kinds of battles between the vandals and the Romans. And they negotiated, Aetius negotiated peace. And Geiseric’s son was going to marry Valentinian the third’s daughter. So the murder of Valentinian the third is a kind of family matter to him now, so and an excuse, presumably, as well. Valentinian the third’s widow writes to Geiseric to ask for help, because she doesn’t want to be married to Petronius Maximus. And Geiseric sees an opportunity, and he launches the vandals. And the Vandals come and they sack Rome. This is one of the famous sackings of Rome. And Petronius Maximus are hearing this news the Vandals are heading towards responds even worse, and did his duty, honest. He doesn’t even try to muster a defence. He just legs it. He just hits on his horse and he legs it. But he’s spotted by people and some Imperial freedmen who are so disgusted at him doing a runner that they stone him to death there and then. So it’s, it’s an intriguing story, because it starts off so well, and you think he’s going to be a brilliant emperor, because, I mean, he’s very well qualified to be emperor. He’s got wonderful background. Everyone agrees he’s very clever, he’s very talented, he’s brilliant. And where he gets there, he’s brilliant. But first sign of trouble, he just folds. He just completely folds, and in the kind of sources, one of the things to say that he just didn’t realise what a step it was from being a senator to being emperor, and it’s compared to a story of a guy sitting at a beautiful banquet of all the best food you can imagine in your life, the best movie ever going to eat, but above your head is swinging an axe that could fall on your head at any minute. And that’s what being Emperor is like. And he didn’t know that. He didn’t realise, I think, that he would be the target that the minute he set took that step up from being an ordinary politician to being the head everything is your fault. You’re the full guy. You’re the guy that everybody’s heading for. And I think that that completely undid him. I mean, you think he would realise that if he’s been around kind of Imperial politics that long, but

Dr G 54:33
you would assume so, but, and he’s obviously got a lot of talent behind the scenes, so very much, one of those sort of people that is able to pull the strings of other people, so a great sort of, like, second in command, if you like, but maybe that step out into the sort of top gig itself. You can’t be in the shadows anymore. It’s much more difficult to be somebody who’s pulling the strings you are now the one whose strings are being pulled. Yeah,

LJ Trafford 54:58
you it was a. He was exposed. Essentially, he was exposed, and all eyes are on him. And, yeah, like you say, he works best in the shadow. He’s a manipulator. He’s, you know, he’s somebody who can pull the strings of other people, and work very has done very well there. But yeah, being exposed and then realising that everything is heading for him, personally, just him, not anybody else. It’s that hatchet, yeah, and that’s what being Emperor’s like that, you know, again, going back to paranoia of Caligula and Domitian, that hatchet are constantly above your head all the time. It can fall. And, yeah, he just met, I guess you got to say kind of mentally. He didn’t have the mental strength to cope with that.

Dr Rad 55:36
I can understand me, just because I think Game of Thrones has shown us this very well. There are some people that are suited to be the front man, and there are other people that are very good at being the helpers of the front man.

LJ Trafford 55:50
Yeah. And I think, yeah, I don’t think he realised, till he took that step, that fatal step, that he was an emperor material. And he didn’t realise what it meant to be emperor, it, yeah, until he took that step. And then, I guess he just panicked, panicked and, yeah, didn’t even try to try to rule in any sense. He just legged it

Dr G 56:12
was panicked, yeah, panicked and ran away. He panicked and

LJ Trafford 56:16
ran away. Yeah, which is, you know, which is even worse than Didius Julianus. At least, did his Julianus tried. He tried badly with elephants, etc, but at least he made an effort. He didn’t run away from the messy, mess he’d made, possibly, because he’s surrounded by Praetorian Guard at all times, he weren’t going to let him go without that gold. I was

Dr G 56:34
going to say, yeah, you always buddy. You got to stick around.

LJ Trafford 56:37
But yeah, he just, he just likes it. Just likes it. And it’s, yeah, I think it’s such, I think it’s such a surprising story of the kind of build up, the two assassinations that he engineers, and then yeah,

Dr G 56:49
for what they’re definitely expecting him to flourish, you know, yeah,

LJ Trafford 56:53
yeah, to have some really top ideas. But yeah, he just, he just folds. And I think that’s, I think that’s really interesting. And I think yeah, and that’s why I wanted to include him as a kind of worst emperor, because it’s that kind of like realisation of what being an emperor is, and realising that you don’t want a part, that you don’t want, that you thought you did, but it’s Be careful what you wish for. Is the message of Petronius Maximus. He got what he wished for and then immediately regretted it. Yeah,

Dr G 57:20
fair enough. I mean, I feel like I would be the same, to be honest, I would probably also run away. I’d be out of there. I’d be like, this was I’ve made a mistake, guys. So thinking about how all of these different characters that have come through the Roman emperorship lead us to gain some insight into the nature of being human. There’s certain strengths, there’s certain frailties that can be read and understood through those who hold power. And I’m interested in the lessons that you’ve taken away from studying these people, lessons,

LJ Trafford 57:59
I think in my conclusion, I think, in my book, I say I don’t have much of a conclusion. I think, I think what changes is what kind of person becomes Emperor over time. So you need a different skill set depending on what period of history you’re in. You know, we talk about Caligula, having them having to make up battles for him to fight, because there aren’t any, because it’s relatively, relatively kind of calm during that period. You know, you get onto the era of Petronius, Maximus and Valentinian the second it’s constant fighting third century crisis. Yeah. And like the kind of third century crisis, the people who come become emperor, people who have armies and who can inspire armies. And so that is a very different kind of skill set to what your Augustus and your Tiberius needed, which were kind of good administration, and kind of keeping the Senate, keeping the Senate on side, that becomes less and less important as kind of the the armies and the soldiers become more and more important. But yeah, I think what I learned from it, I think, yeah, I think there’s a lot of ways in which you can be worst. I think there is a kind of the unqualified way of you know people who, you know, Valentinian the second becomes Emperor when he’s about four, or something, you know, he’s clearly not qualified for the post. So there’s people who come in with no qualifications and no kind of background in what, what the job is, I would think, feature. Then there’s a people like Petronius Maximus, and then people like Gordian, the first to get the top job, and then at the first sign of trouble, just fold, who aren’t, kind of mentally prepared for it, I think, as well. Then you get the people that kind of the flaws in their personality, like kind of Caligula, that kind of fatal flaw of his awful childhood, that’s kind of influences how he behaves as emperor, and kind of do mission simile, having that, that kind of teenage years in Rome in a very tumultuous period, very frightening period, and his increasing paranoia influences how he behaves emperor. And then there’s the ones you know that on paper look like they’re going to be great emperors, but then just just aren’t. So people like Galba, who looks he’s got all the right qualifications to be emperor, but. All falls apart quickly. So there’s, there’s all manner of ways in which you can be a worst emperor. I’m not sure there’s one way, but, yeah, I think it, it’s about personality, I think, at the end, and that is set up by kind of Augustus, who has the charisma and the strength of personality to build this thing called emperor and to hold it together. And then down to Tiberius. He’s got the skill set, you know, even if he’s not got the charisma, he’s got the administrative ability to kind of, and the fear factor of keeping people in line. But then when later on, you get people who just are not the right personality for the times. So I think, yeah, you need a different personality for a different each of the eras, kind of, in ancient Rome, you need to be the strong man, the hard man, the general in the kind of third century you need to be the acute, charismatic politician in the first century, it kind of changes as Rome changes, which is a bit a very waffling answer to, I don’t really know.

Dr G 1:00:55
I think, I think it’s good, because it gives us a sense that it is about the context, like everything is affected by that first and foremost, and then it is what you’re bringing to the table as an individual. And it’s like, if there is a good marriage between what that context requires and the strengths of your character and your background, you might be able to make it work, but it’s a risky thing every single time, every Emperor is always in that delicate balancing act across the whole course of their rule to make it work, because there’s so many things that they’re trying to hold together, and so many people have to fall in line. So it’s,

Dr Rad 1:01:36
it’s a yes, yeah.

LJ Trafford 1:01:39
I think I also I kind of learned, is that you can, I think the line between being a worst Emperor best Emperor is really quite thin. You can spin a lot of people either way, and the historians certainly do. And I think you could probably make a case for any emperor as the worst emperor. If you look at it, you could take Augustus and say, Well, you know, he dismantles the kind of Republic. Let’s enter the report. Republic, you know, if his morality, legislation, you know, kind of bites him in the bum with his own daughter, and he’s ruthless, he’s, you know, he’s not very nice. Morally, he’s deflowering virgins in his 70s. That’s not very, you know, Roman morality, is it? Um, you could take anyone like you take Trajan, you know, oh, he drank too much. You’re like boy boys, you know, you can take anybody and you can spin it and make them a worse temper. And I think that’s what’s interesting as well. I mean, the way in which you become a Western Emperor is basically but having nobody to write up your story well. So you need that successor, that person who’s going to write your story up well and kind of gloss over the lesser aspects of your personality and beef up the bigger ones. But I think, yeah, I think it’s a fine line between the good and the bad. I like

Dr Rad 1:02:46
the idea that the historians are the ones with the real power here. Yeah,

LJ Trafford 1:02:53
they can spin the story. Yeah, they’re spinning the stories and deciding who’s best and worst. So we shouldn’t really believe them over

Dr Rad 1:03:01
We’re all liars, as our name suggests, the partial historians. So on that note, where can people find your book?

LJ Trafford 1:03:14
Usual book outlets, Amazon, etc, online. Just Yes, ancient Rome’s worst emperors, available. And

Dr Rad 1:03:20
tell us. Do you have any exciting secret, upcoming projects? Maybe the eldre Trafford theme park coming up.

LJ Trafford 1:03:30
If only I want, yeah, I want merchandise is what I want. I think I’m coming actually. I’m stepping out of Hmong for the next book. Briefly, I’m doing sex and sexuality in ancient Greece. Oh, that would be exciting, which you’ll pair nicely with the one I did in ancient Rome, which is interesting, very interesting. And it’s very different. And there’s some good differences there. So good differences. And, yeah, I kind of think the Greeks get away with too much. I think

Dr G 1:03:59
because you’ll rein them in, I’m sure, with your whole democracy

LJ Trafford 1:04:02
and politics and art being the cradle of civilization, I think we give them, I think we rose tint them, and then we look at Romans, and we go, oh, geez, emperors, soldiers, gladiators. And yeah, I think it’s time to it’s time for the ancient Greeks to be to be exposed. I was gonna

Dr G 1:04:19
say, pull away the veil and reveal Ancient Greece. Well, that sounds exciting. I’m looking forward to that one coming out so we can delve in. Well, thank you so much, LJ, for joining us and taking us on a potted tour of the worst emperors. This is by no means all the Emperors that mentioned in your book, and so we definitely encourage people to seek out your excellent work and to enjoy some of these fascinating tales.

LJ Trafford 1:04:50
Thank you for having me. It’s been a ball.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Whilst 401 BCE was a tense year inside ancient Rome, we can assure you that there will be a plebeian win to close the year. Victory at last!

Episode 152 – Victory at Last!

The Romans were facing war with several enemies, thanks to Capena and the Falerii joining their conflict with Veii. And they weren’t going to take the loss of Anxur lying down. This calls for the mother of all levies! The magistrates had to try and enlist any man they could get their hands on, young or old. Rome needed to make sure all her bases were covered at home and abroad.

The catch was that a larger army required an increase in funding. Rome was apparently paying soldiers now, right? The military tribunes with consular power came up with a genius plan – a war-tax! What form did this tax take? Crops? Bronze? Your first-born child? The only thing we can rule out is coinage, as the Romans were not using that yet.  

Regardless of the mode of payment, the people were distinctly displeased by this new policy. They were already having to work extra hard with so many men serving in the army. And of course, the tribunes of the plebs were NOT HAVING IT. This was a total scam.

With the people all riled up over these issues, the elections for the tribunes of the plebs fell flat. Not enough men were elected to fill the positions. The patricians saw an opportunity to try to weasel their way into the office, but they didn’t get away with that. However, they did manage to convince the newly elected tribunes to co-opt some colleagues that had been given the patrician stamp of approval.

This was in direct conflict with the Trebonian Law of 448 BCE, which was meant to prevent anyone being co-opted. As luck would have it, one of the descendants of the original Trebonius who had championed this law was serving as tribune in 401, and he vigorously protested this violation.

The people were furious about these signs of corruption and the three tribunes who had colluded with the patricians knew they needed to come up with a distraction. Why not turn everyone’s attention to Sergius and Verginius? They had made such a mess of things in 402 BCE. They were the perfect scapegoats.

Tensions remained high throughout 401 BCE as Sergius and Verginius were put on trial, the tribunes fought the war-tax and the men on the frontlines weren’t getting paid. Somewhere in this strange mixture of collusion and conflict between the patricians and plebeians, something momentous was brewing…

Dr G and Dr Rad are celebrating the election of the first military tribune with consular power.

Publius Licinius Calvus became the FIRST official plebeian to be elected as military tribune with consular power, set to serve in 400 BCE. Victory at last, Licinius, victory at last.  

We’re excited – can you tell?

If you want to know why he was the chosen one, you’ll need to tune in next time! The suspense….

Need to catch up on Sergius and Verginius’ epic bitch fight? Listen to our previous episode on 402 BCE.

Suspiciously momentous events happening right at the end of the century

Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sound.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:57
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G,

Dr Rad 1:05
and I am Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:07
And we are exploring Rome from its foundation, and we are up to 401. BCE.

Dr Rad 1:15
Indeed we are Dr G. Now before we get into this particular year in ancient Roman history, looking at our different sources, let’s do a very, very quick recap of the previous year, which was 402, BCE, I think I can sum it up very succinctly. There was a lot of fighting between two of the military tribunes with consular power, and it led to them massively embarrassing themselves in front of all of Rome.

Dr G 1:41
Awkward, awkward, yeah. Look, I think the thing that I talked about was the archeological record for what is happening between Veii and Rome from this time period, just to give some different context to what this relationship is like between these two places which are not very far from each other?

Dr Rad 2:04
No, they are not all right. So now that we done 402 we can dive straight into 401 BC, ah.

Dr G 2:36
401 BC, it is quite the time to be alive. There are six military tribunes with consular power. And

Dr Rad 2:46
I also have some names for some tribunes of the plebs. They’re not just faceless opponents anymore.

Me too. This is very exciting. It is all right. So tell me who are the military tribunes with consular power this year. All right,

Dr G 2:58
first cab off the rank, Lucius Valerius Potitus.

Dr Rad 2:58
Heard of this guy before.

Dr G 3:05
We have seen this guy before. Previously, military tribune with consular power in 414, 406 and 403 so this is his fourth time in the job. I hope he’s good at it. We also have Marcus Furius Camillus.

Dr Rad 3:23
Ah. Now this will be a famous name, not quite famous yet, not

Dr G 3:27
quite famous yet. So I feel like we’ve been touching on the edges of this guy. He was previously listed

Dr Rad 3:35
naughty, naughty.

Dr G 3:38
He was previously listed as a military Tribune with consular power in 403, but 401 this year seems to be a more secure date for this guy, sure. So we will see

Dr Rad 3:51
the cusp of his career

Dr G 3:53
every time I think he’s about to start. We also have Manlius Aelius Mamercinus slash Mamercus, depending on how you like to spell it, yeah. He’s

Dr Rad 4:07
actually held a consulship before, hasn’t? He? Very fancy.

Dr G 4:11
Was consul in 410 and previously also a military Tribune with consular power in 405 and 403 nice. Yeah, so you know, he’s been about traps. In addition, we have Gnaeus Cornelius, Cossus also previously a military Tribune with consular power in 406 and 404 Kaeso Fabius Ambustus also previously held the position in 404 and finally, Lucius, Julius Vopisci Iulius.

Dr Rad 4:46
He’s about the only one that doesn’t seem super familiar. All the rest obviously, repeat customers.

Dr G 4:52
Siege times. I think so. I mean, if there’s anything to indicate to us that they. Might be a siege. I feel like it would be the fact that we’ve got some really recurring players right now,

Dr Rad 5:05
yeah. But also, I think probably the fact that the previous military tribunes of the consular power basically got dismissed from office in disgrace. I think that’s another reason why the Romans might like to have some experienced people, yeah,

Dr G 5:19
fair enough, yeah. Let’s get the experience guys out on the field, and let’s get this victory happening

Dr Rad 5:25
absolutely now, I believe we both agree that there are also some tribunes to talk about here. There are, but

Dr G 5:31
before we go into that, let me just mention, and I know you will be unsurprised by this, but all of these guys holding this military tribunate With consular power are patricians?

Dr Rad 5:43
Well, just goes without saying, doesn’t it? Dr G, do you want any grubby little plebeians getting any power?

Dr G 5:48
Only people from the elite know how to wield the sword

Dr Rad 5:51
Exactly, exactly anyway.

Dr G 5:53
So the tribunes are the plebs. We’ve got some. There’s a whole bunch of them. For some reason, all of a

Dr Rad 5:58
sudden, we go from just having faceless people trying to cause problems to like, what is it? Six? Yeah,

Dr G 6:03
I think it’s much easier, from a narrative perspective, to be able to be like, Oi Marcus. Stop it bizarre. So our tribunes of the plebs. Now listeners take note of these names, not the first names, because they’re all pretty standard, but the last names for these guys give us a real sense that we’re dealing with different families. So we’ve been really used to seeing patrician family names come up and get repeated over and over to the point that we’re confused. Is one Claudius better than another Claudius?

Speaker 1 6:35
No? Like the Amelii or the Valerii, yeah, like all

Dr G 6:40
of the guys that we just mentioned, those names have been in the rotation quite a lot in very simple, yeah, exactly.

The Furii? How can I not mention them? Camillus is one of those Furii.

Exactly. And these guys, these tribune of the plebs, are all coming from different family lines, which give us a sense of the perhaps, what is the broadening birth structure that also is equivalent to class, potentially, that is going on in Rome at this point in time. So we have Marcus Acutius, Publius Curiatius, Gaius Lacerius, Marcus Metelius, Marcus Minucius, which might be maybe the closest that we

Speaker 1 7:23
get. That’s right, yeah, that’s the only one I’ve ever heard of before. Yeah. And you may

Dr G 7:27
have also heard of Gnaeus Trebonius. That’s true, the Trebonius name, yeah. So these groups of names, Acutius, Curiatius, Lacerius, Metilius. These are just names that sound Latin, but they don’t come to us through this sort of patrician lineup that we’re used to seeing. Yes,

Dr Rad 7:48
absolutely. Well, Dr, G, 401, the reason why we might have so many named characters is that it is a bumper year for Rome. It’s like they know it’s the end of the century.

Dr G 8:01
You gotta give people something juicy for the end of the century.

Speaker 1 8:05
Yeah. So there’s a lot of war going on in this year. We, of course have the siege against they but there’s also going to be Capena and Falerii involved in that. And we’ve also got war against the Volscians on the horizons, because, of course, the Romans just lost Anxur, which they had stolen from the Volscians, but they consider it theirs now, and they want it back.

Dr G 8:28
I see very intriguing. Well, I have almost next to nothing or like, what

Dr Rad 8:34
happened I was gonna say, are you really gonna chime in here?

Dr G 8:37
I mean, I do have some things to tell you, but I will maybe hold off on most of them, except for one, if I may, okay, be bold initially, sure. So I just want to have a bit of a throwback to the Lex Trebonia of

Dr Rad 8:52
448, that is going to come into my narrative later. If you, Oh, you want me to hold tight? Well, it’s up to you. It does come in, but just not until a bit later. Okay, I

Dr G 9:02
only mention it because we’ve just listed all of the tribune of the plebs, and there’s a connection there. But I can, I

Dr Rad 9:07
promise. I can hold on. It’ll be just a moment, and then we’ll be there. Patience, patience. Background, yes, okay, before we deal with all the war that’s on the horizon for Rome, naturally, there are some internal issues that we have to deal with, of course, yeah. Now, I think you can probably guess what these revolve around. They’re kind of standard issues for Roman society, apparently, which is that if you want to fight a war, you need to have a levy.

Dr G 9:35
I hate that. That’s very annoying. You’ve got to round up people. Get them on board. Yeah, get them excited. Now there’s going

Dr Rad 9:40
to be an issue about that, and I’ll explain what it is in a moment. There’s also an issue, though, around the fact that people are apparently now paying a war tax,

Dr G 9:49
excuse me, yeah, that’s never been mentioned before, a war tax.

Dr Rad 9:54
Look, this is, I think, revolving around the issues around funding that we’ve been talking about. You know, the fact that they’ve introduced. Use Military Pay, and that’s the thing, the money has to cut from somewhere.

Dr G 10:03
Are you? Wait a minute. Yeah, wait a minute. Wait, wait.

Dr Rad 10:06
Question the narrative. Wait, wait, wait. Question, the

Dr G 10:08
narrative. No, no. Hold up. You’re telling me, first of all, people are getting paid. So, I mean, this is something we’ve talked about a little bit. Now, that’s fine, but who’s now paying for the pay. It’s being paid through through taxation. Who’s getting taxed to pay for the pay? This

Dr Rad 10:26
is the issue that the tribunes brought up when originally the idea of military pay was introduced. So like, Sure, these guys, who are all elite and stuff, might be contributing to get a scheme off the ground, but who’s going to be paying for it long term, it’s going to have to be financed from somewhere, looking at you guys, and this is the whole issue that they were talking about when they were saying, follow the money. This is exactly what people are having issues with. Now, I feel

Dr G 10:52
like there’s been a lack of transparency, and I have not seen the legislation get passed. It’s obviously highly questionable. Rome is not functioning like a proper Republic right now. Yeah,

Dr Rad 11:03
it’s all highly questionable, of course, because what would they be paying the tax in? How would they be paying the taxes? All sorts of questions that we want to really

Dr G 11:10
in the aes rude that I talked about last episode, giant pieces of bronze made of rectangles. Yeah, exactly.

Dr Rad 11:17
Rome doesn’t have coinage at this point in time. It’s all very confusing, but I need to proceed with my narrative. So if you would please, okay, the military tribunes, of course, want to levy the troops, and naturally they’re going to be recruiting young men, standard so far, so good. But they start enlisting older men too, because they want to make sure that Rome itself is to be protected,

Dr G 11:42
enlisting older men too. Why? Hello there, Rome.

Dr Rad 11:47
Now the issue of military pay becomes difficult at this point, because they’re widening the levy. Because, obviously, the more men you’re enlisting, the more money you need to pay for this army also,

Dr G 11:59
is it the same men that you’re levying that you need to pay for the pay?

Dr Rad 12:03
Well, this is where it gets confusing. So this is why they need to pay for it by collecting a tax. This is where the tax comes into it. So you see, oh, yeah, completely logical so far. Yeah, the Roman citizens aren’t thrilled about paying this tax because they’re already having to help the war effort in generally and, you know, protecting the city and that sort of thing. And that sort of thing, and just working for the benefit of Rome in general. They don’t feel like they should have to pay a tax. On top of that, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, come charging in at this moment. They sniff an opportunity. They accuse the senators of planning this all along. The senators were clearly intending to wreck everybody’s life by not only make half of the citizen body serve in the army, they were then going to tax the rest to death,

Dr G 12:51
right? Okay, well, that does sound rather dramatic coming from the tribune of the plebs. I mean, the problem for the elites is if they tax you to death, or they send you to wars and you all die. Yes, is that there is no one for the elite to parade around in front of and pretend they’re better than

Dr Rad 13:07
Yes. Well, look, they don’t stop there. They say, clearly, you are also behind the siege at Veii lasting this long, it is your fault so that it is being strung out this long, it’s because you have been mismanaging this whole affair that it’s dragged on as long as it has, and now you have the nerve to levy armies for four wars, resorting to using mere boys and the elderly, who I presume are people in their 40s and 50s as Well, forcing the plebeians to serve all winter and work all year round, and now a tax on top of all of that. So let me just get this straight. The plebs work their guts out and fight themselves into early graves, whilst neglecting their own lives and their own properties. And finally, if they’ve managed to return, and they get a chance to put their feet up, they have to pay our tax. I mean, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes a military pay situation laughable. The idea that’s benefiting anyone

Dr G 14:16
Say it ain’t so!

Dr Rad 14:20
now, if you’re sensing that there’s some Gracchan parallels here, I would say yes, yes, there are

Dr G 14:28
Livy. What are you doing?

Dr Rad 14:30
Look, it’s, once again, that whole idea of, you know, controlling land, looking after land, all of that kind of stuff that comes into it. So the people were completely consumed by these issues, and around the time that they are trying to process this whole levy tax situation, this is when the tribunes of the plebs are having their elections. Okay? And they actually didn’t have enough men elected to the office, which means and. This is, I think, where we’re going to come into what you’re talking about here. They start playing with the idea that patricians be allowed to be introduced to the magistracies, to fill the spaces. And I think this is where your Trebonian Law thing is going to come in.

Dr G 15:15
I interject, throwback, 448, I know it’s clear in all of our minds. Like was yesterday, yeah, practically yesterday we recorded the year 448 in 2021 Wow. It was a little while back. So something unusual does take place that year. So Livy records that two patrician ex-consuls are elected to serve as tribunes of the plebs in that year. There’s doubt about the accuracy of that claim. Fair enough. It’s Livy. It’s a it’s a weird time period. We’re not sure about most things to do with this century, and we’re right at the end of it. But there is this sense that people get up in arms about this concept. So some of the new tribunes had been consulting with patricians, and then there’s this sort of co-option that sort of takes place. So it’s getting messy. So it seems like there is a way in which the patricians have seen an opportunity to potentially undermine the tribune of the plebs by bringing themselves into it, yes, and the problem with that is that the plebeians are not going to stand for it. So Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law. Now, the name trebonius, we assume, must be a plebeian name, and we get another trebonius this year as well. So

Dr Rad 16:42
coincidence, I think. No, no, I

Dr G 16:44
do think so. Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law that stipulates that elections for tribune of the plebs need to continue until no fewer than 10 tribunes of the plebs are elected, and they should be plebeian. Yeah. So he ends up getting given a cognomen Asper (Prickly), in recognition of his fight to keep patrician power in check. So that’s the kind of broader context. And here we are in 401 and all of a sudden we’ve got another Trebonius in there, but we’ve also got this sense that maybe the patricians are looking to get another foothold, because obviously the critique that’s being leveled at them right now is severe. It is that you’re pushing everybody to the brink of their livelihood and their economic capacity, and for what you’re sitting outside they and your generals, your upper class guys are sitting there having little infights with each other rather than getting on with it. Yes, and the result of that is more lost life, losing places like unksel Because you’re not watching them properly and you want to tax us for your mistakes. Yes, like you get to be in charge if you don’t fuck it up,

Dr Rad 18:03
as RuPaul would say, yes, exactly. I think that’s how things are kind of being set up. So we basically have these guys, Marcus Acutius and Gaius Lacerius, who are selected for the office after they couldn’t find enough people. And it said that these guys are definitely chosen because of patrician influence, and this is what sparks the current day Trebronius, as in the one that’s actually around in 401, to defend the Trebronian Law, obviously, because it has to do with his family in particular, and he wants to make sure that this law about the cooptation is being upheld. So this guy claims that the law is being ignored. And he’s correct, and manages to create, obviously, a lot of unhappiness, because for the patricians to be taking away these positions and ignoring a law that’s obviously to do with plebeian rights, it’s a bad situation. So people are also really mad now at all the tribunes of the plebs except Trebronius, of course, whether they were the ones who were doing the co-opting or they were co-opted into it at this point in time, and there’s just a lot of tension within Rome about the whole situation. So the three tribunes of the plebs, who had been leaned on by the patricians, are extremely worried about this situation. And this is Publius Curatius, Marcus Metilius and Marcus Minucius, and they decide what they’re going to do is to distract people about the whole issue of co optation. Obviously, I think people are mad, because presumably it means that these current tribunes of the plebs were obviously under patrician influence as well, even though they might not have been patricians themselves, they decide they’re going to prove themselves and distract people by going after Sergius and wagenius, you might remember as the military tribunes with consular power who were causing so many dramas last episode, and caused this huge military problem because they were fighting amongst themselves, and they decided, look, we can channel all the negativity that people are feeling surrounding the election of the tribunes of the plebs and the water. And everything into a particular trial against these two guys, and these guys will be the scapegoat, all right,

Dr G 20:06
so this is in some respects a distraction tactic away from the CO option of a couple of these tribunes as sort of stooges for the patricians by challenging some other patricians at trial. Yes,

Dr Rad 20:21
I think this is exactly okay. I think we’ve got the noble trebonius, you know, the holder of his family’s legacy, as being the one who’s sort of speaking out against what’s happening. The others obviously seem like they have taken some sort of patrician bribe or something like that in order to make this happen. So there’s all that ill feeling happening. So they decide, let’s put these guys on trial. These three tribunes say that Sergius and Virginius are the problem and that they’ve just been pointing fingers at each other for this whole mess. They say it’s probably something that was set up in advance by the patricians or the senators, because it is just too hard to believe the insanity that happened in the previous year, that they would allow the army from Veii to set fire to what the Romans had built. They obviously want the water drag on. So, yeah, exactly. This is like they’re it’s not just incompetence. This is a deliberate plan, and that they had basically just given things up to the Faliscans, who had joined in on the side of Veii at this point in time, the patricians, therefore, must be trying everything to use they to stop any other advances from happening for the plebeians. So they is basically one huge Sideshow to stop questions about land reform, to stop the plebeians from having lots of people at their assemblies because they’re all too busy out fighting, you know, they’re all too busy serving in the army, to stop them from being able to foil an evil patrician conspiracy.

Dr G 20:21
Oh, the struggle of the orders. It’s not over, my friends.

Dr Rad 22:10
And basically they’re saying that the Roman men had to fight their way back to the city because of what Sergius and Verginius had done. It’s all the fault of these incompetent men. Like, how are these people, the ones that are in power? And whilst the gods are not necessarily directly punishing Sergius and Verginius, they’re saying, Come on, Romans, let’s use this opportunity which the gods have provided for us to seek our vengeance against what they have done, wow, conspiracy. Dr, G, yeah. And it goes deep.

Dr G 22:44
I’m feeling it all the way, all the way to the top, to the gods themselves. Yes,

Dr Rad 22:48
yes, exactly. Now the plebeians find them guilty fairly quickly. Well, well, well. And they order them each to pay a fine, of which I have given the precise figure of 10,000 pounds of bronze. Oh, that’s quite a lot Nice. Sergius tries to blame fortune, saying that it’s really just this that’s to blame. War is unpredictable. It’s a matter of chance. You know exactly. Stuff happens. What do you expect? Stuff happens. You

Dr G 23:15
roll the dice, and sometimes you win, and sometimes they marches on your army, exactly.

Dr Rad 23:23
So Verginius is like, yeah, look, you know, the whole thing last year was pretty bad already. Haven’t I suffered enough without being put through all of this as well?

Dr G 23:34
Wow, two very different responses, like, I’ve been having a tough time, guys. And you know, you know what this trial has made me realize just how tough a time I’m having?

Dr Rad 23:44
Yeah, exactly. And it kind of works in that it seems that the whole issue of tribunes being co opted, the fact that the Trebonian Law is being ignored, that kind of seems to fall to one side, and the tribunes of the plebs decide that the people should capitalize on the fact that they seem to be on a roll with patrician vengeance at this point in time. We took down two and who’s next, exactly. And so they decide, what better time than now to have a land law campaign? Oh,

Dr G 24:14
yes, let’s get the agrarian campaign back on the agenda. Yeah,

Dr Rad 24:18
exactly. And they also say, and while we’re at it. Let’s just do away with the war tax. Let’s say no to the war tax, even though the money is desperately needed now to fund all the armies. They’re like, well, the armies aren’t really achieving anything decisive, so let’s just forget all about

Dr G 24:34
that. Now this sounds like potentially the kind of moment where the tribute of the plebs could shoot themselves in the foot. Yeah? Being like, Look, if we don’t pay the war tax, that will teach the patricians who’s who around here, and then Veii turns up at their doorstep and they don’t have anybody because they haven’t been able to levy anybody, because they’ve got no money anymore.

Dr Rad 24:56
Yeah, and the issue is that the Roman army is having. Some successes, like, certainly nothing definitive, which is what the tribunes are saying. They’re like, Well, yeah, like they might be doing okay, but it’s okay, good enough for attacks. I don’t think so. So it seems that Manius Aemilius and Kaeso Fabius, they’re in Veii. They’re dealing with the siege, and they are under them the army managers to retake everything that they had lost, so the camp that they lost in the previous year. And they are also building up their defenses, building fortresses, garrisons, the whole work. So things are going back fairly well at ve then we have Marcus Furius, who is fighting against the Faliscans at this moment in time. We have Gnaeus Cornelius fighting in Capena. And these, of course, are the two groups that have joined vague, because they realized they were next in line. Didn’t have decisive conflict with the enemy, but they managed to attack their land, burnt their houses, their crops, did not attack any towns, but, you know, they’ve done some destruction and that sort of thing. Okay, so general pillaging or whatnot, yeah? Okay, yeah. And then we have Valerius Potitus, who’s fighting against the Volscians and attempting to retake Anxur. Now, it

Speaker 2 26:08
hasn’t exactly worked, but they haven’t been beaten off, and so they again establishing themselves defensively, you know, building a stockade and a trench and that sort of thing. So it could not be worse timing with the Romans having all these men out in the field that the tribunes are causing problems back home over the issue of paying these guys. Yeah, I was going to say, so it sounds like we’ve got some real military grind work going on out in the field. And I think what’s interesting here is the idea that it has not taken very long for this introduction of military pay, which still might be up for being disputed at this point, for it to turn into narratively, to something that must occur in order for war to take place. Like you can’t do a levy anymore, it would seem, unless there’s going to be a guarantee of payment. Yes, war, attack.

Dr Rad 27:03
However, in the narrative that we’ve got, the unhappiness from within the city starts spreading because, of course, the soldiers aren’t getting paid, which is what they have apparently been promised. And so they’re getting all antsy because they’re not getting what they thought they were going to be getting. And so obviously, patricians and plebeians are like at each other’s throats because of this situation that is having a ripple effect all throughout the city and all throughout wherever Romans are serving. The tribunes of the plebs call on the people to re establish liberty. They say, We no longer want patricians like Sergius and meginius getting into power because they’re rubbish. Quite frankly, look at what a shocking job they’ve done. They’ve just been found guilty of obviously negligent, like some sort of treason, basically against the state, or something like that, and they’re calling out their fellow pabeans to make sure that these sorts of men can never get elected again. And Dr G, it’s a moment. It’s a historic moment, a plebeian gets elected for the following year as a military tribune with consular power. Oh my, I know I feel like it’s a moment to celebrate. Where’s the champagne?

Dr G 28:13
We must have a moment of silence.

Dr Rad 28:16
Unbelievably, that it takes this, it takes this level of incompetence, and also, seemingly the tribunes of the plebs being very sneaky, that we finally get a military Tribune with consular power being elected from the plebeian class right at the turn of the century. I was

Dr G 28:36
going to say how narratively convenient terms of our timeline. I know

Dr Rad 28:42
it’s almost as though Livy planned somebody

Dr G 28:44
writing history a lot further away from the events and maybe tweaking things so that they happen on a specific timeline. Oh,

Dr Rad 28:54
and with particular families as well. I mean, a trebonius being around to protest the fact that his ancestor’s lore is being overturned. The fact that at the time of the original lex Trebonia, there was a Verginius who was a consul, and now we have another one who’s involved in the story the names as well of the tribunes of the plebs, it doesn’t really make sense for this patrician plebeian divide. Okay, what

Dr G 29:21
you’re trying to tell me is that truth is stranger than fiction. I know it’s hard

Dr Rad 29:25
to believe, but as we’ve highlighted a number of times, one of the biggest issues with trying to unravel the patrician versus plebeian divide in ancient Rome is the fact that the names don’t always match up. So we have had in the past people serving as consuls or military tribunes with consular power, who seem to be from plebeian families, which doesn’t seem to make any sense at all. And then, of course, we also have people who are tribunes of the plebs who come from what we know as being patrician families. In this particular instance. So, for example, we think it must be the Curiatii Minucii. It seems like they should be patricians at this point in time, in terms of their where their family’s situated. So the fact that they’re serving as Tribune to the plebs, it’s all very confusing. The Metilii, we don’t even think they’ve arrived in Rome at this moment, and yet somehow they’re in the mix

Dr G 30:21
so in terms of thinking about like, what are the fundamental issues here? It’s like, it’s the access to information that could be construed in as any way reliable at this point in time by the people who are writing this source material that we are so lucky to have. And this puts me in mind of some of the things that come up in the scholarship and through further research that people have done around the nature of language and what is going on here. So I don’t have any sources. The best I’ve got for you is some Diodorus Siculus to let you know what’s going on in Sicily, in Sicily. But what I do have is some names and the way that they come through in some of our source material that perhaps suggests that there’s so little that we really know. So you might recall that the king Servius Tullius has an alternative name which is completely different. Yes, this Macstrna, yeah, which he’s Etruscan self. Yeah, he’s Etruscan name, which is recorded and sometimes associated with him, but doesn’t have anything in appearance or sound to do with Latin, by the looks of it. But then we have other figures that come through, that come through the Etruscan record as well. There is a Marce Camitinas, who we think becomes Camillus, yeah, and he’s depicted in a painting of the Vulci, and is in a tomb. There is also the other Etruscan name, Cneve Tarchunies Rumach, which seems to be the name of the Tarquinii. And so even at the point of the level of like, who’s who, and the best we’ve got, besides Livy and other source material that might be writing from a much later perspective, is this Fasti Capitolini, which we lean heavily on as an artifact, but itself is quite late, yes, as well. And so teeing up these kinds of names, and then having a source like Diodorus Siculus, who’s clearly been in touch with some of the Latin evidence, but doesn’t always get it right, and then knowing that the Etruscans have their own system of language, and write down names that sound like they’re going to become Latin names to us, and there seem to be some parallels it’s just bonkers how little we know. So the fact that we have this beautiful narrative from Livy is incredible to me. I love it, and it’s also like the depth and complexity that he’s offering here of a society in a moment of transition is really powerful. And this idea that there is this sub sort of plus structure fight going on and families vying for power and control over the principal positions, it’s amazing, and I want to believe that those stories are true, and it’s really hard to reconcile with what we have from other sort of bits and pieces here and there, which stand outside that written material, but come from that archeological context. Yeah,

Dr Rad 33:27
and this is the thing I feel like I can’t quite finish this story without actually going into the next year because there’s a really intriguing detail that I think is going to blow your mind.

Dr G 33:39
Well, I put it to you that it will have to hold your horses a little bit.

Dr Rad 33:43
Okay. Well, can I, can I tell you this one detail? We can come back to it, but I have to tell you this one detail. Okay, okay, so the guy, because these two years blend together in the way that Livy is telling them, the guy who becomes the first plebleian military Tribune with consular power is Publius Licinius Calvus. Now we will come back to this, but I just want to leave you on this, because it’s so unbelievable. Livy s sort of goes into why was this the guy, why was this the guy who was chosen to be the first because he hadn’t held any sort of offices before, and I quote the English translation, but was only a senator of long standing now, well on in years now,

Dr G 34:25
whoa, what are you telling me? There have been plebeians in the Senate the

Dr Rad 34:29
whole time, apparently, so and it so. It brings us back to that essential question, which we’ve been wrestling with this entire time, of who the hell are patricians? Who are the plebeians? How do we define these things? I mean, obviously it makes sense. I understand that the Senate can’t be made up of just ex-magistrates.

Dr G 34:48
That’s right, that would be weird. Yeah, at the beginning there weren’t any.

Dr Rad 34:50
Exactly, there were none. And then even if we go back to, you know, like 50 years ago, whatever, they still wouldn’t have been enough to make up a Senate if it’s given. Scale that the Senate is in our source material. So Oh, my God, we’re going to delve into that more detail next time. But it just goes to show right at this moment, this very, very important episode where we finally reached a milestone how many more questions I have, and we are going to have to go back to that original question of patricians, papillions. Who are they and where do they come from?

Dr G 35:20
What is this and why does it keep happening? And are we sure it’s real? Were they there at the dawning of the sun and at the setting of the sun? We shall remember exactly, oh, my god. Anyway, that

Dr Rad 35:31
just blew my mind. That

Dr G 35:35
is an incredible detail, and I’m going to ruminate over that between the end of this recording and the next recording let you go

Dr Rad 35:43
without telling you that, because I’m like, it’s actually, I actually don’t even care about the fact that he’s the first plebeian military tribune with consular power. Once I read that, sentence I was like, holy cow!

Dr G 35:54
what’s been sitting in the Senate for years?

Dr Rad 35:56
Yeah, she’s been lurking there. Like, it’s just like, What is going on? Who let him in. What’s going on? So, yeah, so much that is intriguing right at the turn of the century and look, I agree with you. The thing is, what we have to remember is we’re dealing with this situation with Veii, right? And this is a very important moment for Rome, and we’ve already sort of hinted to our audience this is going to be the last showdown with Veii. I think you all know how that ends up. However, we also are facing a disaster for Rome, the Gallic sack of Rome, which is coming up on the horizon. And this is the excuse that our sources give us. Excuse me. I know, believe me, Rome about to get trashed. This is the excuse that our sources use for how confusing this particular century is. And I actually felt very reassured I was doing some research for the show. And it sort of was this chapter that was all about how the fifth century is probably the most difficult in Roman history to figure out. It’s even worse than the period under the kings. Because, okay, look, the Kings might be mythical, whatever, at least we have some detail. So you have some myths, you know, for this century, it just, there’s so many questions and academics just they have such different opinions. It is

Dr G 37:04
baffling. And I think there is the potential to take an archeological perspective, which would leave us with not too much to go on, but definitely the suggestion that there was conflict in this century in the local region surrounding Rome, for sure. So I’ve got a bit of information from a paper by Bartolini and Michetti from 2019 vague during the Archaic period the sixth and fifth centuries BCE. And this is backing up that paper by Ariza and Rossi that I was talking about in the previous episode, that there is a reasonable amount of archeological evidence to suggest that we’ve got cultural exchange going on, but also a build up of military engagement across these two cities Yeah, so that all makes sense. Cool things like the introduction of the terracotta roof tile. You know, everybody likes a good terracotta roof tiles. They’re

Dr Rad 38:04
so dangerous. They can fall at the moment. They

Dr G 38:06
could fall on your head. Then you could be dead. Exactly who’d ever tell a story about that? Terracotta roof tiles. They get developed and in the seventh century, and they start to sort of flood the market, as it were, it’s like new roofing materials. Hello. We also get the introduction of the Opus quadratum, style of brickwork, which is something that the Etruscans do when the Romans definitely adopt, which is the nice interlaying of bricks, where you don’t need mortar they just sort of Nestle up against each other in different patterns to create an interlocking system. Yeah, very cool, yeah. And the way that tomb structures change, which I mentioned in the previous episode as well. So there’s lots of ways in which there is cultural engagement cultural exchange and an increase in sort of militaristic defensive fines from this time period. So it’s not like Livy is wrong, yeah, yeah. He’s not wrong about the broad brush strokes. But I think what we are ultimately uncertain about, and maybe we’ll never be able to be certain about, is the really fine detail of who’s who, where are these stories coming from? Can we make sense of this chronological structure. Why do we seem to have some added years in here and all of this kind of jazz.

Dr Rad 39:26
Look the whole thing about the tribunes, patricians, plebeians, co opting, a trial like none of it makes sense to me.

Dr G 39:36
I kind of love how it’s become so circular, where it’s like, wait a minute, we’ve, we’ve done this thing, and now that we’re now we’ve got taxes, and we’re paying people, and it’s all getting out of hand, and nobody wants to sign up anymore, and where are we going to get the cash from? Nobody knows we don’t have currency we

Dr Rad 39:53
just weren’t ready for this. So I

Dr G 39:55
think this is probably a good moment to wrap up this episode. Mode, knowing that we’ve got this really great story

Dr Rad 40:04
of Yeah, the conflict of the orders is back with a vengeance. Yeah, coming

Dr G 40:08
up on this cliffhanger note, because I’m so keen to talk about 400 now, but I think there’s

Dr Rad 40:13
no more to it. But I just had to tell you that

Dr G 40:16
I genuinely do have some things about 400 so I’m excited to get there, okay, but I think it might be time for the Partial Pick.

Dr Rad 40:31
Alright? Dr, G, the partial pick the moment when the Romans have a chance to win 50 golden eagles, 10 in each category. Tell me what are our categories?

Dr G 40:44
Well, our first category is military clout,

Dr Rad 40:47
right? Well, okay, the Romans are apparently having some success. And by success, I mean they are undoing the terrible performance of the previous year. Yeah. I

Dr G 40:58
mean, you can only go up, can’t you?

Dr Rad 40:59
Yeah, no, I think they could go down. It could

Dr G 41:03
be worse. Yes, yes. Look, this is not a great situation for them to be in. They’ve got some troops in the field. They’ve been doing some minor pillaging. Yeah, they’ve recouped their losses from having their camp invaded by they. They’ve attempted to take back on saw but not been successful yet, running in that? No, so I think that they’re engaging in military things. I’m not sure that they’re demonstrating a lot of clout right now. It might be a three,

Dr Rad 41:27
yeah, yeah, okay, I’m on board with that. Okay, a three, it is

Dr G 41:34
new arguments. Excellent. Look,

Dr Rad 41:37
I’m weighing it carefully, and look, as I say, Yeah, regaining ground lost whilst they were being terrible is not the best.

Dr G 41:44
It’s not the best. This doesn’t constitute a huge success. No, all right, our second category is diplomacy. No, they

Dr Rad 41:53
are at war on multiple fronts. I think I’ve made that very clear.

Dr G 41:56
They are not talking to any of their enemies right now? No,

Dr Rad 42:00
there’s just so much war going on that’s no golden eagles. Yep, that’s a zero, okay, expansion.

Dr G 42:06
No, they’re

Dr Rad 42:08
not doing that. They

Dr G 42:10
certainly haven’t gained territory, although, if they’ve gained back the losses from outside of Bay, that is an improvement on their camp situation. That’s

Dr Rad 42:20
true, but that’s just a camp. It’s not like a permanent This is mine. That is your situation. I feel true.

Dr G 42:25
I think that is also a zero. I think so too. Weirdos, no,

Dr Rad 42:32
nobody seems to be very admirable, because, like even the tribunes of the plebs who put Sergio simogenius on trial, don’t seem the most admirable tribunes I’ve ever come across like, I think the implication is meant to be that they’re in the back pockets of the patricians. Yes, that does not seem ideal. And the other ones are apparently, you know, patrician candidates. So who cares about them? All

Dr G 42:55
right? So, yeah, I don’t think any of this behavior necessarily constitutes a great Roman sense of manliness, although they might argue otherwise, because I’m sure they would even Sergey

Dr Rad 43:06
and vigineous. I mean, again, they just come off terribly. They

Dr G 43:09
do sound like very rich, spoiled boys having a Slappy fight with each other. At least they’ve been found guilty. Okay, so that’s a zero for weird to us. Yeah, the citizen score. Is this a great time for Romans on the average, look,

Dr Rad 43:24
it’s a hard one to judge, because technically, speaking, the first plebeian military Tribune with consular power does not actually start serving until next year. Yeah, we can’t count that in this count, I was gonna say I don’t know whether to count the election and the intention to have a plebeian military tripping with consular power. Well, see,

Dr G 43:41
the trouble is that you could have an election, and you could have a candidate who is, you know, the elect as it were, sure, but might lose it before they get into office. But he doesn’t. And we know that, okay, but we but the Romans don’t know that, okay? Like he doesn’t start until next year.

Dr Rad 44:00
Okay, okay. But we do have the election. We do have the election happening, and we do, I suppose that’s exciting. Yeah, we do have sergeys and wagenius being found guilty and being fined, so that’s something. We do have tribunes who seemingly are pushing for things that the people would care about, but it seems to be very self interested, and if I don’t know how to feel about it. Look, I

Dr G 44:21
don’t mind if they’re doing something self interested, if it still benefits the general people, if the populace is still the beneficiary here by and large, I know. I’m not sure that I’m not that worried about intention. True, that’s

Dr Rad 44:33
true. It’s very, it’s a very tricky situation, this whole co option issue.

Dr G 44:40
Yeah, look, it sounds a bit like corruption to me.

Dr Rad 44:44
Well, basically, this thing, is it? This is the thing I feel like. This is just highlighting the fact that there have been pavilions and patricians who’ve been working together all along. Oh, well, we’ve looked at that. We’ve said that for years. You know that there are obviously pabians who are clients of the Patricia. How

Dr G 45:00
dare you. I would never talk to a patrician. I would spit on them in the street. But this is what we’ve always

Dr Rad 45:06
talked about. There are obviously going to be pavilions who have the same interests as the patricians, because they’re both wealthy. Are you trying

Dr G 45:13
to tell me that things are more complex than they seem? Certainly, all right, well, I don’t know if that helps us with our citizen score, though. I mean, I agree with you. I’m on your side here.

Dr Rad 45:24
I think that the at the end of the day, if we try and think about the situation that we’re confronted without putting in any of Livy s little additions, we essentially have a lot of people at war, right? We also have them not being paid, which is the perk that they were promised. True. We also have the people back home, whoever they may be, whether they’re patrician, plebeian or not paying a tax on this, which they’re clearly unhappy about. So it seems like there’s actually a lot of unhappiness about the only real perk, I would say, is that they’ve been able to hold Sergius and Verginius accountable, and that there’s the possibility of more plebeian political involvement, all right, so

Dr G 46:05
maybe a one? Yeah,

Dr Rad 46:07
I have to say two. I have to say two because I feel like it’s one for the trial and one for the election.

Dr G 46:13
It’s one for the trial and one for the election. It’s three for a military Tribune, exactly. Don’t

Dr Rad 46:21
you dare step on my Roman leather shoes.

Dr G 46:25
I was like, I don’t have the lyrics. It doesn’t work at all. I’m sorry, everybody all right. So that leaves us with a final score of,

Dr Rad 46:35
I forgot to keep count. Five, five.

Dr G 46:40
I was gonna say I think it’s five. We gave them three for military clout, two for the citizen score, and none in any other character. Yeah. No, it’s five. Five. Yeah, five, five. Golden Eagles

Dr Rad 46:50
look it seems low, but I think next year will be an interesting one. Score wise, maybe the possibility of a high score, maybe,

Dr G 46:58
well, yeah, I look forward to next time so we can find out together,

Dr Rad 47:02
indeed, and hopefully we won’t be consistently interrupted by my cat. Oh,

Dr G 47:07
we’ve had we’ve had a guest star. Have you heard Hamish in the background of our podcast? Write in and tell us what you think.

Dr Rad 47:15
Oh, dear. All right. Well, Dr, G, I look forward to seeing you and our plebeian military Tribune with consular power. Next one farewell.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon in return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say hello, hello. Hello to LJ, Israel, Christine Anders, Naomi and Eric, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much for joining our partial band. However, if you just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Daaa you thought we’d gone, but we haven’t. We’re just back to remind you that you can pre order our upcoming book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire now. Head to our website for details. It’ll be out November 2024.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 152 – Victory at Last! appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Neil returns to discuss more about some of the major sites of interest in the regal period of Rome. We recommend his podcast Ancient History Hound to you. You can also find out more details about Neil’s work at his website: The Ancient Blogger.

Special Episode – Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger – Part 2!

It’s time to take a tour of Rome’s most infamous subterranean chamber, the Tullianum, aka the Carcer.

Of course, we’re talking about the Cloaca Maxima!

Water, human waste, rats, and methane – is the Cloaca Maxima just a little more dangerous than generally thought? We take a tour with Neil to find out.

There aren’t many flat places in Rome, so the natural valley that is home of the Circus Maximus marks it out as special. The natural contours shape the space and set the scene for how the Romans then adapted that space into an early sporting arena. Major sporting events included horse racing (in various configurations) and boxing, though in a very different style than you’d see today.

It wasn’t just about the sports though – it was also about being seen. Social standing takes on a new meaning when only some people get chairs.

Well, a harbour can be a great asset to a developing city! Neil takes us through some of the important details associated with the site of Ostia, as the location of the early castrum, and the engineering modifications of the salt lagoons.

Horrea (storehouses) at Ostia Antica. Photograph by Jean-Pierre Dalbéra via Flickr.

Our theme music was composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr G 0:15
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of this city.

Dr G 0:57
Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:06
And I am Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:08
And we are really, really excited to welcome back, Neil, for what is part two of our extravaganza exploration of regal Rome in terms of its layout and what’s going on with like, the landscape and things like this. So as you know, Neil is the founder of the popular Ancient Blogger website, and is also the host of the Ancient History Hound podcast. So welcome back now.

Neil – History Hound 1:43
Hello, thank you very much for for having me back on again, you just don’t learn is what I’m getting at

Dr G 1:51
It is very few rare guests who get to come back for a second time.

Dr Rad 1:55
That’s true, that’s true

Dr G 1:56
Consider yourself in excellent company.

Neil – History Hound 1:59
When a teacher says when you meet up with a teacher later on in your life, and they say I remember you from school, and that’s rarely a good thing.

Dr G 2:08
Often, that is the presage of some nasty stories. Oh wow, I was that kid

Neil – History Hound 2:14
Oh, I thought I was quiet. But thank you very much for having my back on apologies to everyone listening, I’ve decided to I visited London recently to go to the British Museum to see an exhibition there, which had great fun out. And of course, I’ve picked up the lurgy or a cold or something. So if I’m sounding a bit sinusy that is, I’m fighting against it with rapid amounts of various lem sippy type things. So I’ll try and be as cogent and as clear as I can be, but stick with me if you can.

Dr Rad 2:44
I think you sound very smooth.

Dr G 2:48
I was gonna say as Australians we tend to like we really quite enjoy the English accent it does have a has a bit of a historical resonance for us. So you really can’t do any wrong.

Neil – History Hound 2:57
Well, I actually got some feedback on I get some occasional feedback on my YouTube channel. And someone give me feedback the other day. Couldn’t couldn’t last one minute with his voice. A fair enough. I just didn’t know my mom was on YouTube. A bit harsh.

Dr Rad 3:18
Like you can’t please them all. We’re constantly told our fellow laughing cackling and being immature so…

Dr G 3:24
How dare you do history and have fun at the same time. I take umbrage.

Dr Rad 3:30
This is very serious stuff.

Neil – History Hound 3:32
Yeah, I can very lightly I gotta be honest with you. I don’t have much in the way of criticism. I have nice comments, which is always nice. But I appreciate that people sometimes get some real unfair, unfair stuff come their way. Just remember if you’re listening to this, most people who do your podcast do it because their hobby. They do it because they love the subject. And all they’re trying to do is share that subject with you. They’re just trying to get ideas across topics across helping you think about a particular area. No one’s charging you necessarily anything. And so sometimes just bear that in mind because I always think of it like shops if I’m walking along a parade of shops. And I don’t need to go into a particular shop to buy an item. I don’t go into that shop and tell them they’re wrong for stocking that item. I just go past the shop. And I think with podcast sometimes we have I think it’s because culturally we’re not yet. fine tuned. We haven’t worked out to critique podcasts correctly. So you can go into these as I said, the shops and think about it again. I go past things all the time. I’m not interested in buying I do not go into that shop and go you know what? That those those size nine high heels you’ve got in the window? Useless. I’d never wear those or not. Not only that, I don’t even like them. I think you’re wrong for having them the shop window. People will be just looking at you going. “Yeah, okay. Do we Do you need some help?” But that’s the way sometimes.

Dr Rad 4:53
And ‘=they’d also be saying, Neil, come on. We know you want their shoes

Neil – History Hound 4:58
With those calves? Probably not? Yeah.

Dr Rad 5:03
Maybe Maybe wax first. Yeah, but no, you know, you’re very right. I don’t think everybody does understand podcasting, particularly for independents like ourselves. I’ve certainly talked to some very intelligent friends of mine who’ve never really put it together that we don’t necessarily get paid per se. Like, we’re very lucky to have patreon supporters as I think you probably are as well. But it’s still not like a paid job. And it’s certainly not enough that we can quit our full time paying jobs to you know, to go into the podcasting.

It’s

Neil – History Hound 5:39
It’s certainly one of the biggest misnomers most people do podcasting. In fact, they sort of 99.9% are doing it. It’s a hobby, they’re not making money out of it. And they’re just trying to create something that people like, so when you’re listening to it, if you can give back criticism, and I’m always up for constructive criticism, I’m fine with that. And people have come back and said, Actually, I’ve had some in the past, that might work better, or I enjoyed this. But you know what, that wasn’t so good. Great. It’s just that kind of mindlessness sometimes in the comment that What are you trying to do? What What’s the achievement value for you by submitting me that anyway, I apologize. But if you are listening, and you are listening to podcasts, currently, you know, sometimes it’s just nice to tell people that you really enjoy their stuff. And if you’ve got constructive, constructive criticism, give it but just just making constructive because, you know, we just, we just want to live our lives and go on with it. Because it’s pretty tough sometimes. So yeah. Anyway, there we go.

How

Dr Rad 6:30
How dare you refuse to change your voice for a listener, Neil?

Neil – History Hound 6:33
Oh yeah, you’re right. On another one, I did have someone call out that I was a bit heavy to be a hoplite. Because I was showcasing a shield.

Dr G 6:43
Ouch

Neil – History Hound 6:43
Oh no, to be fair, I was like, I didn’t have any color that I’m like, Yeah, you know what? I’m a bit overweight, and I’m a bit over age. I’m not a live 19 year old leaping around the battlefield.

Dr G 6:54
But yeah, so also, we just have so much more access to food.

Neil – History Hound 6:59
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like the world feeds is very well, indeed. And it’s like your chances of looking like a hot plate from the ancient world. Slim to none, when they’re eating a very different diet. Well, actually, that’s one of the things that often comes up. So there was a point that came out recently about Roman soldiers. And this is the whole thing about this height requirement for Roman soldiers. And it gets bandied around a lot. And it’s, it works at a roughly five foot seven. And this comes from a source, which is late fourth century ideas for jetties who, who writes this treaties on the Roman army, he says, Well, you need to be this height. And people take from that, that was an absolute given out across all of the entire territory of the Roman army. And in fairness, I did see it when I went up to the Legion exhibition of the British Museum, which is great, and even at a photo taken at meet with of me next to the thing, not making the height requirement. People

Dr G 7:51
You’re out, I’m sorry.

Neil – History Hound 7:52
Yeah, I was out. And what people don’t realize is that I’ve had it sometimes people said, well, you know, everyone was just short about them. And it wasn’t people were shorter. I mean, yes, they probably were, it was just they didn’t have the ability to fulfill their, you know, they weren’t exposed to the kind of diet that we are. Many people are not everyone, many people are in the Western world, as it were now, or just across the planet where you can eat, you’re not starving, you’re not nutritiously deficient anyway. So you could have plenty of people who may have been over six foot kicking around ancient Rome, as it were, but they never had the diet when they were children to be able to reach that, you know, genetics can set you up in terms of your physiology, as I understand it. But what you do to achieve that doesn’t mean it’ll always happen. So if you can get somebody might be six foot two, but if you don’t feed them, right, they might, you know, their growth is going to be incapacitated in some way. You put blockers on that. But anyway, yeah, so there we go. We’ve brought it back to ancient Rome. So I’m happy.

Dr Rad 8:51
Indeed, I’m always happy to talk about the vertically challenged army of ancient Rome. All right, so let’s let’s go back to the geography of early room, if we may. And I’m going to kick it off with something that is quite near and dear to my heart, because I am going to openly admit, Dr. G, that I wrote the chapters on the kings Tullus Hostilius and Servius Tullius in our book, just in case there’s people hadn’t realized, just in case, somehow my unique style and never-ending popular cultural references were lost on you. And so that brings me to ask you about a particular building, the Tullianum, which may be named after either of those kings that we were just talking about. We’re not really sure which one so Livy claims that these may have been constructed by Ancus Marcius, but I don’t believe that Dr. G, because you wrote about him.

Dr G 9:55
No, I was gonna say that was my chapter.

Dr Rad 9:57
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now archaeologists have done their darnest, but the exact location of this structure is still a bit of a mystery. There has been a theory put forward that the Tullianum might be the ancient vault that was found under the Church of St. Giuseppe dei Falegnami. However, even the dating of this space seems to only go back as far as the second century BCE. So can you tell us what is the Tullianum? And what tales from regal Rome are connected to it?

Neil – History Hound 10:33
Well, I don’t incite chapter wars. But obviously, if anyone’s read the book, they can get back to both of the authors and tell them who wrote the better chapters. Don’t just, I’ll leave it there. But thank you very much about the Tullianum. Yes, the way to think about Tullianum and I did think about, the best way to understand it is almost starting at the wrong end of things. So we want to start around the time of Livy. And think what Livy was saying. So again, we’ll work on the premise that it is under that church that you mentioned. So we’ll take that, again, these all kinds of caveats of further things may give us more clues and more ideas. And we always have that. That’s why whenever I’m talking about anything, I’m always very, very delicate about given an absolute because, you know, two days after you released an episode, you’ve written something incredible discovery, scotch is everything. Now, when Livy’s was looking around, he would have noticed there was a structure and the structure by his point was quite famous this was and it’s known in the modern, more modern time is the moment I’m present. Now, that’s a much later reference to it. You had apologies, my pronunciation again, but you had two structures, the one above ground, which was the carcer or car-ker. And then you had one below it. And it’s the underground structure, that’s the one that interests us, Sometimes this is referred to as part of the carcer. But we also know it as already referred to as the Tullianum. Now for Livy, it made perfect sense, he had this structure above ground, so that must have come first. And the structure below ground presumably was was was later. So he retrospectively seems to apply the structure of the above ground structure to anchors. And then he sort of suggests that the second one was built later by, by Julius and and it makes sense, because after all, Look, Look, it’s called the Tullianum. So it must be linked, because, again, naming conventions in ancient Rome, very often things are named after a person, or they’re given that backstory, that’s something that can be easily attached to them. And he is writing a story, let’s never forget that with Livy. You know, he’s trying to make his reader interested in things that have happened in the past. And he’s also not going to conduct extensive archaeological interest or excavations into these buildings.

Dr G 12:39
Oh, come on, Livy. You got to work on your method.

Neil – History Hound 12:41
Yeah, get your trowel out, Livy. I’ve always said it. So what we’re looking at there. So the Tullianum, and I thought of another way of considering it, and I daresay both your good selves, and everyone listening here, would have walked around, and they would have seen a building that’s changed us. In the UK, there’s a sort of chain of development that seems to occur, suddenly, it used to be a bank that turns into a pub, that gets shut down many years later, that becomes a block of flats, or become something else. And so if you Look at some of these buildings and go, well hang on a sec, that, that must have been always, it’s just an odd looking building. But it must always have been an office or a block of flats, you actually know it’s been repurposed, it’s been rearranged. Originally, it was built like this. And there are famous examples, then it’s the Louvre, the museum in Paris, that was originally a palace, and then it got changed. And that’s not a huge, I suppose a huge leap of change for a particular building, particularly in France, where they didn’t really have many kings kicking around after a certain point to have buildings for. But with Tullianum, it’s really interesting, because what Livy’s trying to do is make sense of what he’s seen and retrospectively fit that but what we have is a bit of a bit of a curiosity. So the idea was that the to Leon was this underground or Livy’s, time underground, called I say, dungeon. I don’t like calling it that. But it was kind of a holding cell. And it was a holding cell for the famous peoplecert such as Vercingetorix. All of those people who were involved in the Catiline conspiracy were apparently held there. And after which they will they will be executed on sometimes there will be ritually strangled down there, such as I think it’s pheasant gettering. So if that occurs, too. But the issue with it is that that’s what Livy was saying, an archaeology and other sort of works. And again, with the caveat of more things will come out as determined there was probably a very different use. And this use seems to have been that of a spring or a system. And the rationale behind that is because it’s an odd structure. This is and it’s been changed a lot because in the modern, even in the Save the ancient Roman times, the later building of the car-ker or carcer, which I think dates to around the second or second century BC or there bout’s, that seems to have changed the structure below it quite a bit. So they think it’s several meters, two meters high. Also, circular building, I think it’s .about seven meters in diameter, or there abouts. And the premise seems to have been that this was a third last type design, which if you if anyone who’s listened or knows much about ancient Greek architecture, will immediately think of this as a circular thing with a dome sometimes. And it was a cistern. And not only was it a cistern, like many cisterns in ancient Rome, it was linked to a deity, it would have been sacred, it would have been given some religious provenance on some level, which is actually ironic, given what I’ll come to in a bit. And so that’s what they thought the original design was. And when they looked at a section of the walls, they actually came across the type of wall structure, where it seemed like ancient the way it was, was built, they said, This is archaic. This looks pretty much like a cistern, which has been found elsewhere on the Palatine. And around that time, it’s a common pattern of the way that the wall was structured. However, when they looked at the stone, and I read a paper with incredible amounts of letters after numbers, because they did sort of various isotope stuff on the walls of the remaining structure where they could get to because again, it is a religious, it has a religious connotation now. So you can’t just go around and start chopping these things up and removing and excavating. They found that the stone dates to probably around the fourth century BC, is a particular type of stone that Rome doesn’t get access to around that time, seems to pop up a lot. And so the question is, why would you have an older structure with newer stone, and one argument which sort of appears is this, and I think works quite well is this wasn’t really important religious or spring that had religious prominence to it. And therefore, it had been reclad rebuilt, which isn’t an unusual thing. You’re just using more recent and better tools and better construction materials to rebuild it. And you do that because it was important. So the idea was that this, in fact, was, as I said, a spring sacred spring, that filled the cistern. And then you go, Well, hang on a sec, you know, you’ve both said, Tell us, you know, we got we got totally us there, you know, we’ve got Servius, and we got Hostilius. So, where does that link in? Well, it’s been argued that actually the word ‘Tullus’ is Latin or comes from the Latin to mean spring or jet of water. So again, this links into Livy trying to find a way to connect dots, which may not be there, but building a logical picture, and I’m not going to criticize him for it, because I think it’s a relatively good way of considering what he saw. There’s also another element to all of this. And that’s the power of there was a gate in the serving boards called the porta fontinalis. And this was a lead this allegedly gave access to a sacred spring. And it’s thought that this gate was near to where the current site is. So this might be the sacred spring that was linked to that gate. And that there is an I’ll finish up with what I finish up with actually three things of note. First of all, the Romans had some really, really, really, really cool, horrible stuff. But sometimes, as we’ll see later, particularly, they had some quite fancy festivals that just in kind of, yeah, that seemed like a nice thing. But October 13, at the Fontanella, which was where wells were adorned with flowers, and I think that’s really quite nice. Sort of, obviously, a celebration of how important these things were, and again, need to remember that flowing water often had this religious connotation to it springs are often where people I wondered actually, I couldn’t find anything linked this in, but numerous. The nymph Egeria, whether or not she was linked possibly, to this to this spring, again, I don’t know because she was said to hang around a spring, but I am now going to give you well, a bit of controversy and I can kind of see that the finger of Damocles is sort of hovering above the edit button on this one, because I’m going to say one thing, lemons. So there is quite a controversy in ancient Rome about lemons and when lemons became introduced. Now I know full well that there are some lovely frescoes from Pompeii. And they seemed to depict lemons or do they some people have argued that they depict the citron fruit as – I see Dr Rad looking around going, Hang on a second. I thought that was definitely a lemon is quite a controversial thing, believe it or not, because and again, things that you end up reading that you don’t necessarily you end up going down rabbit holes. There’s a whole there were various papers done on evidence of sausage from fruit now to identify some fruit particular lemons is really quite difficult because different pips you got to look at pollen, and it can be difficult to distinguish these and they have found evidence of citron pollen in and around Naples. Not enough apparently is in in quantities that are dense enough to suggest there was farming going on. But there was certainly citrons. And an argument has been lemons were around in the time of Pompeii. And that’s probably true, because the only piece of definitive or the earliest piece of definitive lemon lemons being anything in Rome is found in the Tullianum where they found lemon seeds. They were able – and this dates to the Augustan period – they were able to specifically date or not date them, but identify them because citron pollen, citron seeds can often look very similar to each other. And they had this so there we go, in case you’ve you’ve got that gap in your life, it’s now well and truly filled, you know that lemons were certainly a thing around Augustan Rome. And we know that from the Tullianum. The other thing is the fact that this whole idea of a spring and having religious connotations is shifted across. Because there is again, this is the I don’t know enough about the Catholic Church to know whether or not this is fully endorsed, but I suspect it is in some way. But you can apparently visit St Peters, it was a site rather of one of St. Peter’s miracles when he was held at Rome. He wanted to baptize a bunch of people. And guess what he’s struck the earth of the Tullianum and a spring emerged. And from that, he was able to baptize a bunch of people. So again, you have this link of a spring being based within the the Tullianum, and you can’t get away from that being a central function to it. It’s just interesting how Rome again, adapted and evolved, what was already there to possibly something very separate. It was a by the time of Livy, possibly a holding cell. And it may have been this whole sacred spring thing that was lost in the memory. And then again, it points to something I’ve mentioned we spoke about in the the first episode, where even within ancient Rome, things got lost things got remember, things got reinvented, it wasn’t this monolithic block of time where everyone is considering what happened in Oh, yeah, fifth century BC, that was just a week ago. You know, first century BC, nothing’s changed. Everything’s changed. So we always need to remember that, you know, there was within ancient Rome, there was an ancient or more ancient Rome that it knew of and try to work out. Anyway. So there’s my thoughts and some things about the Tullianum.

Dr Rad 22:15
Oh, Look, I’m very intrigued by the lemon seeds. It makes me wonder what on earth was going on in that holding cell? Was it something nice like them saying, Yes, I’d like some water with just just a slice of lemon, please.

Dr G 22:29
Well, I’m down here, I’m gonna make some lemoncello. Why not?

Dr Rad 22:32
Exactly. What was it more like? Yeah, you made too bad life decisions. Here’s some lemons, try and make lemonade out of them, I dare you!

Dr G 22:43
Classic Romans, I would say, Yeah, Look, I think that’s really fascinating. There are so many springs in and around Rome. It’s just the nature of the geography. And all of them are considered sacred in particular ways. So it’s interesting to try and tease out particular details relating to a singular one. But I think this actually leads in really nicely this idea of springs into my question for you. And I know this is a topic dear to your heart, the Cloaca Maxima. So thinking about things that might be watery, but in a less pleasant way,

Neil – History Hound 23:21
I’m actually gonna throw a question back to the both of you good selves, it’s more of a mental exercise. And for anyone listening, I suggest you do this as well. And the question is this, could Rome have developed and achieved what it did without the forum? So if it didn’t have access to the forum, could it have achieved what it did? It might have done. But if after considering that question, your your answer, your conclusion is, no, it couldn’t have done, then the Cloaca Maxima is possibly the most important structure in ancient Rome, certainly the early development of it, because without the Cloaca Maxima, you do not have the Roman forum. And I can get into the whys of that in a moment.

Dr G 24:02
Ah excellent, excellent, setting up the mystery.

Neil – History Hound 24:08
The mystery of something that I spoke about prior and this relates to flooding, and here we come with some numbers. So the problem that we have with the forum or the area that came to become the forum is it’s it’s in a in a valley, and it’s between the Capitoline and the Palatine Hill. Now, being in a valley, it was prone to flooding. The bigger problem was quite extensive flooding. At the time before it was developed. It sat at around 6.9 meters above sea level, which sounds quite high up. You think that’s not too bad, except the problem was that the seasonal floods from the Tiber could reach up to 9 meters above sea level. So what we seem to have at play then, and again, this is this is more identifiable through some of the archaeology that’s done because we can sort of see what the work has been able to see has been these layers of material that have been laid on the forum. And it raised it up by around three meters. And it seems this work undertook a lot of time between the seventh century was probably discontinued and then carried on. And the amount of material required was around 20,000 cubic meters. Now, I don’t know what 20,000 cubic meters Look like, I don’t know how big that is. But I did some basic sums. And if you’ve got a wheelbarrow in your garden, I can average wheelbarrow, it would take 235,000 trips with that wheelbarrow to move that amount of material.

Dr G 25:34
Dear lord.

Neil – History Hound 25:35
Yeah, that’s a lot of movement. Now, of course, the problem with raising this is that you had the issue of drainage, because in this area, it suggested that there was a narrow stream, but also you would have the floods. Now, you can go about raising the level of that area. But the problem is minute floods, the minute you’ve got that stream running through the middle of the forum, what he just wrote everything, all your good work, and completely gone. So what’s been suggested that early on the Cloaca was simply a way of redirecting that drain. And as they raised the level of fluid, so it grew, so you build up beside of it. So what you seem to have had was a double channel. So we had parallel channels of a parallel channel, about three meters wide, or just over three meters with a wall in the middle. And three meters high by the time it was finished. And this seems to have done the job and be unable to redirect water away from the forum. So you then you could pave it over. The big kind of controversy over this is whether or not it was open or paved, because again, this wasn’t a sewer, I’ll get to that in a moment. This wasn’t assuming that sewer in the conventional sense, this was just a way of draining the area. So it’s been argued that the the fact that it was uncovered at one point with just some areas that were being covered, so you could move across it. Others say this didn’t happen till the second century BC Some have said no, actually, this was from day one was always covered. And that was the standard because we can see drainage channels elsewhere. In fact, there was an interesting drainage channel that seems to have occurred a bit later on in Cumae. And that’s funny enough, where the last Roman king ends up in exile. So this idea is that there’s, there’s this the technology is well known about. And it’s something that people are quite proud of having. In fact, it’s something you showcase, it was a mark of distinction to have this kind of engineering fee, because that’s what it was within your city within your, your well, the city that you boasted of. So this is what this did. And it’s it’s quite, it’s quite fascinating thing, because people and I’ve had chats with people since on this in the later Roman imperial period, it’s really quite difficult to get across just how much surface water there was kicking around in the Cloaca Maxima. By the way it gets expanded. I mean, it gets really expanded it by the time of Livy, you had I mean, again, the the analysis and modern analogy I’ll give is, think if you’re old enough, like me, you can remember when the internet was about four websites. And you can remember when there was Ask Jeeves, and Netscape or whatever it was, that was the pre-Google times and all of this kind of thing. And obviously now you see, it’s completely different. This was a very basic advanced in itself, but very basic structure that was then added to so now what you have is you have when people Look at it, and they excavate it, you’ve got these different parts of it that much newer than other parts of it, because it’s had to be developed and changed, rebuilt, extended everything in subsequent periods, which can make things more difficult because how do you see what the original bid was? So that’s what you have with the Cloaca. And it’s, it’s absolutely, I’d say absolutely fascinating, particularly in regards to how it functioned as a sewer because it was generally there to take away surface water. You’ve got by the time of the imperial period, you’ve got a lot of water that’s coming from fountains, off rooves. There’s been extensive repaving. So you’ve got this runoff, all this stuff. One of the big things that come out, and again, I was talking to kids in schools always loved this is the idea that they weren’t. The toilets might have been connected, but largely weren’t based on the evidence that we have, particularly at Pompeii, where there’s quite a lot of surviving structures that you can see that toilets weren’t connected to the sewer. They weren’t connected to the Cloaca Maxima. Did did human waste end up there? Yeah, yeah, it did. But the thing was, we think of it slightly different for a Roman was certainly the Roman period. The idea of using water to flush away human waste wasn’t really the most obvious way of dealing with it. Because human waste can be used in a number of ways. A main one was as fertilizer and you had people who would come along and collect it and actually buy it from people. Now imagine if you’re someone who lives in a if you’re a poor Roman, so the majority of Romans probably and you live in an incident live in a small building where you probably have a chamber pot, and your chamber pot with tea into a larger, I suppose larger pot or some container, that container might be taken, taken away, dumped outside, that seems to be the case at Pompeii, but also, the owner of the instalay might have a deal, and you might be selling it as fertilizer. If you were someone who had a house with a, with a toilet in it, it wasn’t a toilet, this was a sort of waste disposal, often in the kitchen as well. The idea would be that solid waste would be put in there, it could then drain through the rock, and people would then come around and they would buy it off you you would have slaves if you had a toilet. I mean, most people had slaves anyway. But you’d certainly have a suite of slaves as it were, if you had a private home with a sewing home with a private toilet. And that will probably be one of the jobs, one of the things you wouldn’t have occurred to Romans would be to use water to flush it away. Because why would you now this there’s a separate arguments you made in the case of bards and things like that, but you got to think about Roman bards is quite an unusual, even though there are a lot of them. This is where later sort of Imperial time, when Roman Baths really become a thing in ancient Rome. Obviously there are summer, Pompeii, and there are some that day a bit earlier than they did we think that Rome in either case, just flushing and having that as the equation of dealing with waste just didn’t make sense to Rome on many levels. And you know, you could do other stuff with it. And there was fine one final story. Well, actually, there are a couple reasons why you wouldn’t want your toilet connected. If you did live in Rome to the sewer. The first would be well, if the type of floods you’ve got a lot of fun coming your way. The second one was rats, you’ve basically got a super superhighway for any kind of rats or anything to come back up through the toilet. And the other one and please don’t laugh at this when I say the words gas traps. So you’d have a lot of methane building up. You’ve both been put on mute, but you’re laughing like children I’m I’m disgusted, I thought distinguished academic discussion, Stop having fun, we’ll get complaints. And the idea was that if you had buildup of methane in it’s gonna come back up through that particular receptacle. And it’s in a kitchen. Well, you know, Romans are quite big on candles. So you got to watch out for that. And one final one is one that I get similar reaction from telling kids is that do adult and it is a very much an outlier. Very much an outlier. So don’t take this as a reason. But Elian gave a great story on animals. And I know if you’ve either of you heard this, it’s a bit of a mystery. There’s this merchant who owned a stockroom or a storeroom or something. And it wasn’t in Rome. It was on the, he was a Spanish merchant and I think it’s I forget so it was somewhere in Italy, but it was near the coast. And he had he had his stock room and one day he goes into the sock room and his pickled fish have been raided. There’s bits of pot everywhere. And he’s he’s just baffled by it because the locks no one’s going through the door. The locks fine. What’s happened there? Well, he then hires, or he takes one of his slaves, and says why you’ll stand up tonight. I just wanted to see anyone comes in, scare them off. Here we go. So he did. Slave come back the next morning slaves absolutely terrified, terrified, can’t get many words out of him. Invariably they do because you know, he’s a slave. And he talks about the fact that early in the morning, he was looking over in the corner, and the toilet was connected to the sewer. And out of the sewer came this huge octopus, who then continued to help himself to the all the pickled fish and everything else. And then went back. Yes, yeah. And unfortunately, they they end up getting octopus doesn’t end too well. And it’s one of those stories which you think sounds good, doesn’t it? Until more recently when there was those number of those stories of octopus escaping various aquariums and ended up you know, getting into a you an Uber and going downtown having a good time event coming back home for in the morning. Oops, got to go back home. It they were just incredible. And perhaps something

Dr Rad 34:02
And telling the future as well.

Neil – History Hound 34:04
Yeah, they could do all sorts of things predicting elections, they can do pretty much everything.

Dr Rad 34:10
Yeah, yeah, he was gonna be anything, I believe that it was an octopus.

Neil – History Hound 34:14
I would, I would definitely be definitely a fan of that. So with the Cloaca Maxima, what you’ve got there to go back to it is originally this would have been built as the form has been developed. Because again, as this as you’re raising the level of the forum, you’ve got to keep this drainage ditch intact and to do its job and to take away that surface water. You don’t have the forum. Simply you do not have a forum because you do not have the ability to reclaim that land, which is a huge thing. Because when you walk around Rome now, you don’t quite realize how different it was. And I don’t mean the obvious things. I mean, just the topography. So I think the not the archaeological level for ancient Rome as it was around 10 meters below the current level or there abouts and obviously it’s going in different places. Since, but it was far higher and far lower in certain areas than it is now. In fact, you’d be quite surprised if you could do that there is a model, I believe in Rome, which I’ve, I’ve seen a few times. And it’s absolutely fascinating, where they’ve, they’ve got archaic Rome. And it’s just a place of these hills and just hills and valleys. You don’t get the sense of that as much now, but it would have been back then. So drainage was really important. And as such, the Cloaca Maxima was really important.

Dr Rad 35:28
And I definitely believe you, Rome does have a reputation for being a bit swampy at times.

Neil – History Hound 35:34
Well, that was one of the reasons they didn’t all Rome had real problems with the Campus Martius. You know, they had this issue around there. It was really swampy. And it was they did have a big problem with drainage and Rome, certainly in the early early stages of it.

Dr G 35:50
No, I always think of Campus Martius. And I know it’s named after Mars, but I always think what Marsh is in its name as well.

Dr Rad 35:57
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the marshy Martius.

Dr G 36:01
Exactly.

Dr Rad 36:02
So switching gears, a little bit from gas, and all sorts of delightful things that you might find in a sewer. Let’s talk a little bit about the Circus Maximus. So it’s not necessarily the thing that springs into people’s minds when they think of Rome that usually goes to the Colosseum, which is now seen as a symbol of ancient Rome in the city. However, the Circus Maximus is much much older than the Colosseum, and therefore definitely worthy of our attention. So what made the Circus Maximus so special? And why is it an important structure to think about when were exploring the geography of the regal period?

Neil – History Hound 36:42
Okay, so I explained my boo to start with, I liked the Colosseum, I’ve been there, I’ve walked around, I’ve gone in it. But for me, I’m old school. I’m Circus Maximus. In fact, I thought about my dream job. And my dream job would have been marketing consultant for the Circus Maximus around AD 80. And it would have I would have had things on the wall saying, Yeah, Circus Maximus, but the clowns are at the Colosseum, that kind of thing I would have gone full in there would have been hashtags everywhere. So the Circus Maximus is actually linked in before I before I go in even more circus maximum is linked in to declerck maximum because it’s thought that says similar technology that was being exchanged there because this is in a valley between the Aventine and Palatine hills. So if you’re walking, again, we used our clock analogy. In the previous previous episode, if you’re looking at Rome, and you’ve got the the forum Boarium at the center of the clock, you’re looking at sort of between four and five o’clock here. And that valley is between, that valley runs sort of south, southeast or east southeast that that in that kind of general direction. It was prone to drainage. And there are elements of it, which seemed to have been forgotten, but sort of remembered in some of the rituals and associations I’ll come to in a moment. But the initial problem they had was, how do you how do you get hold of this really nice piece of land again, Rome as it’s trying to develop and expand, you can’t just live on hills you need flatland to do stuff on and what you have in what is not I think it’s a Mercier – Mer-kier Valley is actually the technical term for where the Circus Maximus is, is you have an alluvial plain, apparently, which was seems to be like an old flooding on the flooding plane or used to be a river there or some some such, and what you have two channels, and you have a sort of buildup of material between those two channels. And so what Rome does is it takes those, that physical topography and amends it slightly and creates the creates the Circus Maximus, those two channels become the tracks, that central buildup of material becomes the Spener, that bit in the middle of the track, where in later periods, you have all those fancy statues and whatnot. And so what they’re doing is they’re taking advantage of what’s already there, but they’re slightly rebuilding it. And it’s also involved, by the way, drainage, it’s thought that there was a drainage channels, either side of that central bank, and going around the edges of the tracking. If you were to Look at, Look at it above, think of a cartoon where you have a magnet, you know that it’s like that big C shape, that elongated C shape, that’s what you have sort of Circus Maximus. Now, obviously, at the time of the Regal period, you’ve got to get rid of any any thoughts of how it looked like when you probably think about it in its heyday, when it’s got 250,000 people allegedly been able to turn up there. And all of this kind of thing. It was simply a track where you could run various events and there was one particular event that they they had there. And what they what they did was they took the track and they started to understand that you can have let’s say contest there things which people like to watch. So what I found really interesting is a niche Surely, you have this social standing literal. So social standing, because early on, you’ve got Livy and Dionysius both explaining that you have temporary seating allocated. But you’ve got only only certain classes could do this. So you’ve got a space in Rome by which people can be seen. And they can be marked out as distinguished. So it’s really important early on, because people get to show how important they are, because they can have temporary wooden seating. But if you’re really poor, you don’t get that. And there’s in terms of dating it, we’re looking at the, I’d say we’re looking at the legal period, certainly, the earliest piece of that was a physical evidence, there is a stepping stone seat, which dates to 494 BC, and apparently was for Manius Valerius Maximus. So we have a definitive date there of something being and of course, you won’t have a stone seat just overnight, that had to be as a result of further development. The early games they had there were horse racing, and boxing, both very important and very popular. You think of the funeral games at metropolis. You think of the Olympics, you know, these were events which which were central to both of those, both of those things. And these are also apparently from Etruria. So again, these this seems to be an important thing. And it was also it also was apparently the location of the Sabine women, the instance involved in the Sabine women. So I don’t probably need to go over that I’m not sure that people will realize or understand that. One of the things Romulus arranged was a sort of mass abduction, hijacking and worse of women from the Sabine group at an event. And this event was said to have occurred at the Circus Maximus or the site of the Circus Maximus, and apparently it was the Consualia, which was a, in itself, a really nice festival. So to distance what happened at it, it was a really nice festival because the Romans as I said, as an animal level, one of the reasons I could never go to ancient Rome, and people How would you like to go about that? No, I couldn’t. Most people, I think, wouldn’t they say, I’d love to go to the Colosseum and watch. No, you wouldn’t. Because most people, and I say this with a big caveat of most people haven’t seen the sort of horrors that you’d see that you’ve seen it in films, not seeing it in real life, you’d be traumatized. I would be equally as traumatized by the way that animals are treated in certain instances. I know there’s a recent thing that they found at Pompeii, where you had mules that were basically just walking around in circles for their entire lives. So yeah, there was there, this element of horrible treatment of animals, which I’ll move away from, but this is a really nice instance of animals being treated nicely, because the Romans recognized how nice horses and mules were. And they decorated them. They gave them garlands, they had a kind of little My Little Pony festival for them, and they had little races for them. And all that all that sort of thing. And there’s actually what’s interesting is later on the Olympic Games, I’ll just bring the Olympic Games in, because that’s the other big famous games, that becomes the Olympic Games, incorporates equestrian events, because they’re primarily about wealth. Originally, Olympic games weren’t Olympic Games, they were a single foot race for I think it’s a good few 100 years, or variations of it raises the question events start occurring a bit later on. And they’re there purely because people realize that it’s a really good place where they can showcase their wealth. So this is a good way of again, showcasing your wealth and everything else. And they did have events for horses, we always think of the big chariot races, but they used to have like mule races and little carts and traps, I think trap racing that sort of similar similar events to that they used to go and they even had one where you went, the last lap, you ran. So you would you would you would go on your horse around. And this again, is gonna make games. And the last event you get off and you’d run with your horse.

Dr G 43:59
We’ve got – I’ve got to buy myself some advantage by getting the horse out the front real quick. So…

Dr Rad 44:05
That also sounds like a fast track to being trampled.

Neil – History Hound 44:07
Well, the origins of this that it’s thought that this is actually related to cavalry covering engagement. That’s because one of the things that sometimes, again, isn’t fully realized is that we think of cavalry engagements in antiquity. And there’s some confusion exactly how they undertook. So you think of Alexander the Great, and you think of knights and you think of people charging around on horses, fine people? Well, that that didn’t happen, but earlier on, certainly, it didn’t. And there was definitely a school of covering engagement, which seems to indicate I think it’s Livy who mentioned in one engagement where people would get off so it’d be like dragoons I think it is you draw you use your horse to get to the location neutral and then you fight on foot. Very often, you’d be you’d be using the horse to chase down or where you had full advantage needed mobility, but the idea that everyone was charging around and the horses fighting horses and not necessary, not necessarily the case, for a number of reasons. And when you look at some of the Equestrian Games in the Olympic Games, you see that there’s a lot of I mean, there are other ones where you’ve got the dancing in the running Racing, racing armor, at the Olympic games and things like that. So there’s a lot of sort of military virtue exposed there. And I suspect, that’s a similar thing that’s going on Circus Maximus, you’ve got boxing, which was brutal. If it went by the rules of the Olympic Games, then there weren’t rounds, you just basically punched each other until, and there was some horrible stories of people swallowing their teeth, so they wouldn’t Look like they’ve been hit too hard. And I even remember reading one instance was when when if it went on too long, they just had a punch off. So it’s the case if you punch me, I punch you and whoever it thinks. So it was pretty brutal. But again, it was highly, this was a highly, this is a high cultural moment, which occurred at the at the Circus Maximus early on, and you’re getting you’ve got that you’ve got the involvement of, of the horses, you’ve also got a bit of a and this is what I refer to earlier, with a mixture of things going on, because you have the mystery altar. So at the end of the other one in the turning points, the terme – so you had a simple track, if you’re in you’re in Rome, at this point, you’ve got a simple track with drainage channels on it. And you’ve got some people are able to stand on wooden seating. And of course, you wouldn’t have wouldn’t you wouldn’t have anything permanent up, why would you have something permanent up, when it could flood when it could rock the rest of it now just put up when you need to. And there seems to be a god associated here called Consus. And Consus was apparently god of the grain and harvest. But he apparently also had an altar underneath that final turning point. And it was buried. And the way it was, it was unearthed and it seems to be of a secret nature, and it’s interesting. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, actually, and I’ll quote here that he says, “the subterranean altar was erected later to a certain divinity whose name may not be uttered, who presides over and is the guardian of hidden counsels.” Now, this might be because he can’t say Consus, because apparently weren’t meant to. If you consider he’s the god of secrets. Not a very good god of secrets if you tell everyone your name, but even so there’s something going on there. And people thought, well, what’s the association with wheat and grain there, and it’s the or perhaps prior to the prior to the Circus Maximus being being established there, it could have been a location where wheat was grown, which we also have possibly again, at the Campus Martius, you know, have these low lying areas where you can grow, you can have some agricultural projects going on, because again, Rome doesn’t have many flat places. So it needs to find its growing things anywhere that it can do. And of course, by the time of living dynastic Vanek analysis, they’ve kind of mixing things up. So originally the Consualia is meant to be for Neptune, who is Poseidon for the Greek or he’s a version of him, I should underline that heavily a version of him in the Greek pantheon is beside always associated with horses. So again, it’s this weird crossover. So possibly, there could have been something earlier there involving concepts involving wheat, which apparently could also be stored underground, which is why they may have had this auditorium underground. And then later, it’s absorbed and rolled into this wider festival that’s held there at the Consualia, which is then allocated to a particular event with the sidelines. And this wouldn’t be the first instance that Rome does that Roman religious system, which is quite ironic given how small c conservative Roman religion could be in some instances, loves, loves accommodating other elements to it. With it with the you have the Saturnalia, which incorporates the Lectisternium in the end of the third century BC, which was a Greek Festival. They there is this often enrichment of the Roman religion with other elements, so they quite happily repackage and roll things up.

Dr G 49:07
They certainly do. Yeah, so I think the this idea of the Circus Maximus is being part of a multipurpose space, I think, is really useful to think about, particularly for this early period. So there’s the theory that is put out in some of the written sources that the Circus Maximus was kind of created by the Etruscan King par excellence Lucius Tarquinius [Priscus] and that may or may not be just a bit of a story trying to connect that cultural element. But the fact that we’ve got all of this sort of layered meaning over time, I think is really key and crucial for appreciating what is happening as Rome progresses through its own history, as you say, and also thinking about what might have been the touch points for the really early stuff as well.

Neil – History Hound 49:56
Just one final thing on there and I’ve just because I want to sell it even more. If something big happened in ancient Rome, it happened at the Circus Maximus. That’s where most likely you had gladiator fights. That’s where you had ceremonies. People think of the Colosseum, as being this big centralized it almost until Rome had a Colosseum. They just didn’t put anything on. No, all the stuff used to go on at the Circus Maximus again later on. But if you’re a general and you’ve got a you’re looking to have a big ceremony or a big pomp and you know, triumph, that’s where it’s going on. Julius Caesar has big fights there between various sort of sections of his arm, or not his army, but kind of gladiator fight things going on there. It was a major, major cultural event. And it’s weird, because when you go to Rome, you don’t see it as prominent as other sites, because again, other sites steal the eye a bit more, because when you go to it, it looks a bit more like it does now was done back then. So flat piece of ground, but when you go to it just know that is real, old school, Roman.

Dr G 51:06
Yeah. And I think I think one of the things to keep in mind for people who are traveling to Rome and seeing it today is that the Circus Maximus retains some of its amazingness simply because that space continues to this day to be utilized for big events. So if there is a big concert happening, and a huge band comes to Rome, they will often be performing at the Circus Maximus, it is the perfect location for giant events where you want lots of people, the way that it’s laid out, the way that it has this gentle sort of sloping area to it allows you to accommodate a whole bunch of people who are able to still have a view on whatever it is that’s been put on. So it is actually continues to be a really multifunctional space for Rome in that sense. So leading to thinking a little bit further outside of Rome now. Ostia so austere is the spot that crops up at the mouth of the Tiber River as it hits the Mediterranean Sea. So Rome, as we know, is a little bit inland. It’s even more inland today than it was in the ancient period, because ancient Ostia is about six kilometers inland now from where the mouth of the river is now. So there’s that whole shifting way in which soil moves around because of river movements, means that austere is now inland. But I would highly recommend anybody go to Ostia Antica, it is incredible. I don’t think I’m done exploring that site. But it becomes pivotal to Roman power, and pivotal to thinking about power in the region, in this early regal period, as well. So there are some traditional stories associated with Ostia crediting the founding of it to the fourth king Ancius Marcus. And this sort of initial colony seems to be based around control, but also maybe the potential for harvesting salt as much as anything else. But Rome is not the preeminent power in the region, when we’re thinking about the Regal period. So I’m interested in your thoughts on why Ostia is important? And what sort of conflicts they may have faced trying to come to grips with controlling this region?

Neil – History Hound 53:30
Yeah, well, thanks. I think that you’ll see some that you’ve hit across a number of really important points when you’re considering Ostia. So the first thing is that you mentioned is about, again, I keep saying typography, but it is quite inland is four or six kilometers, or there abouts inland from where it would have been. And when again, when you’re considering the ancient world, consider coastlines consider how much they changed. If you’ve been to Pompeii, it’s it was thought that Pompeii was by the coast, a few I went to Richborough in Kent last year. And Richborough was a beachhead for the Roman invasion, or the Claudian invasion. It’s around, it’s a good couple kilometers inland. But if you look at how it was when Claudius it was, it was this little island, this little island of just on with a with this narrow connection to the mainland, and Ephesus, places like that these are places which would look very different. And when I spoke about how the Tiber moved as well, again, the Tiber does move in this instance as well, which kind of confuses things, or makes things more difficult to understand what really went on. So the points that you make about it being strategic are pretty much the rationale if you wanted to boil down. Why does Rome need Ostia? Well, it needs it for three main reasons. The first is that it has access to salt. There are a couple of salt lagoons there which are really important, very nice resource. It means that it can get access to wider trading networks. Because if you’ve got a port that sits just just inland that you mentioned, I think you described it really well, that this wasn’t a port on the coast. This was a was a river port, but it was just in the mouth. In fact, Ostia, I believe comes from mouth of it’s sort of association of that word, meaning that it was the mouth of the river. And it sits or would have sat just as you came in the river would have sat on the south bank. It was a natural harbor that they developed into a port, which makes perfect sense. And the the final reason why this is the third reason why why Rome needed this was because if you’ve got access to who comes in and out of the Tiber, then you’ve, you’re far more secure, because after all, you are downriver of it, or up river or whichever way the tide goes, you needed it for three main reasons really security, you needed it for commerce, and you needed it for a second reason for commerce. So and again, I know we spoke about Civilization [the game] and the importance of salt. So yeah, this was really important for, for Rome, the difficulty with it all is putting together anything, which really builds up a picture of what osteo could have lived before the fourth century BC, mainly because there’s one main building at Ostia that dates to that period, it’s the earliest building to be dating, it’s known as a sort of tower. It’s the castrum, though that said, there is debate about what it did. And the reason I say that is because the the Tiber River changed its course, between the I think it’s between the eighth and sixth centuries, or there abouts it changed its course quite heavily. And so where we think of the castrum being located now to the river, but then it would have been about 600 meters away from the river. So the idea that it was this defensive tower, protecting the river doesn’t really seem to add up. So it’s, it’s not confused, but it’s unsure, perhaps the classification of that building initially, may not be what it was originally intended for. So there’s a bit of debate over as to what that was. But the the central to this is you have these sorted lagoons, you have these lagoons, which become enclosed by natural processes. Now, these obviously can get soaked from sorts very important. Determining, again, determining activity, human activity, there’s quite difficult mainly because there isn’t greater archaeological evidence that goes back. However, there again, there was a paper which I read and looked at some of the drainage channels that were dug, but connecting the salt lagoon to the sea. And it’s, it seems strange that there had been a couple of drainage channels that are made maintained, or no one maintains channels naturally, they have to be done by people and the dating of this maintaining of these drainage channels to ensure that the canal, the canal is connected to salt lagoon, to the sea could date as far back as the ninth century BC up till the sixth century BC. So what I think we probably had, if we were, if we were forced to come up with a speculative suggestion about what’s going on here is that you probably had peoples who were using that lagoon for salt. And what Rome did was early on, it seemed to have got hold of that resource. Exactly when we’re not sure. But again, we got the earliest building as fourth century BC, but prior to that, it’s highly probable that you had something there because again, stone buildings when it comes to Roman fortifications, stone buildings for the latter, you don’t rock up and just build a stone thing. Generally speaking, that is crazy.

Dr G 58:35
You telling me the Romans didn’t come fully formed out of the womb as world dominators?

Neil – History Hound 58:42
Nah nah, you’re mixing it up because it’s Swed- it was the Vikings who had IKEA so they could just have flat pack everything over to build it Romans didn’t have that didn’t have they didn’t have there. Although they did do obviously that when I say flat pack, I’m immediately I’m thinking of the the Punic Wars where they make the boat design from the Phoenicians. But anyway, from Carthage anyway, that aside, what generally happens developments and we see this I did some work and I did a podcast with Dr. Andrew Tibbs. And he was speaking about Roman fortifications in Scotland. And what people don’t realize is most of the time, due to drone technology, you can see these things far easier now because you see the pattern on the ground. Because otherwise from a you could be walking across one and not realize it’s there. Because they would have been originally would the anti wall. A wall never got past the turf stage. It was just originally made of earth. It never is you’d make something of earth or word. And then you’d build it up if you needed to. Because again, sometimes fortifications were temporary. What seems to have happened the Tiber is it’s changed course. So again, you don’t have access to perhaps the areas which would give us evidence. So again, it’s not that we don’t have the evidence there. There could be some fantastic archaeological evidence to determine which day activity around this area. Problem is because the Tiber has moved course it might be directly under the Tiber now, or it could be under some houses near the Tiber. But locating exactly where everything was at this period is still a bit speculative. It’s not where necessary, it is now, what you have now with Ostia, again, it doesn’t suffer so much because it is a site which I’d love to visit, and I’ve heard is wonderful. And it annoys me that I haven’t been there. So stop bringing it up is that you have a much more modern, and by that you have later Republic period, they go all in on Ostia because it’s such an important location. It’s so integral, particularly I think it’s that’s where the fleet for, again, Punic Wars, it’s with the fleet space. So it’s so important to have that developed. So you look at it then and think, yeah, but that probably wasn’t what it looked like 400 years before fact, it might have been in a different place. And Roman port design on way that Roman linked up. Eventually Ostia is – not abandoned, because it’s still kept there – but then move it you have Claudius who sort of redevelops the site. And then you have the basin, the famous basin, which is this – I think it’s an octagon [hexagon], you can actually see from from the sky, if you look, apparently, if you’re flying into one of Rome’s airports.

Dr G 1:01:09
Portus

Neil – History Hound 1:01:09
Yeah, the Portus you can actually see it, it’s there. It’s this perfect, again, I don’t know If it’s an octagon, it’s got a lot of sides to it. And it’s not a circle, but it looks like a circle. That’s my maths for you, you can actually make that out. And that was on the changing. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, it has lighthouse as well, which is very nice, if you like that kind of thing. But anyway, going back to Ostia, again, it’s one of those places which we know is strategically very important to Rome for a number of reasons. But our hands are tied somewhat in understanding more about it because of the way it sits now. And because the structures that are on it now. And this is always a problem. Because if you’ve got a site in antiquity that becomes really popular. It’s usually popular for a reason that that resonates, and later ages. So again, you don’t have that you have that issue. I visited Bath, Roman Bath, good few years ago, and under under it, you can go up, go downstairs, and you look around the Roman remains. And they got the I think was this front of this temple. It looks amazing. And they said we can’t, can’t excavate it. We’ve got this fantastic [building], but we can’t excavate it, because that will probably bring down Bath Cathedral, which would be I understand a bad thing.

Dr G 1:02:20
That would be a shame.

Neil – History Hound 1:02:21
I’ve been to Bath because lovely building it is I think it’s a cathedral, I’m pretty sure. But it doesn’t have great foundations. So you’ve got this. And you’ve got this in modern, modern Rome now and again, with the Tullianum. It’s a great example, if I wanted to go and excavate the Tullianum now, it’s probably not going to happen, because it’s now sitting above a church. So how do you go about that it’s got all of these not restrictions, but blocks to me being able to do that. So we have to go on what we know, which is again, limited, but frustrating. But yeah, Ostia,

Dr Rad 1:02:55
Ah, it’s the curse of regal Rome.

Neil – History Hound 1:02:57
Yeah, they just did it too well. So you almost sympathize. And again, we’re in a so this is great, because we’re in a similar place to Livy. We’re trying to work things out. It’s just that we’re a bit more responsible to our methods than Livy was, though he was obviously a very nice guy. He he’s quite happy to say, Yep, it was named that. Stick it to a king who can reallocate it. Pick a number, any number, oh, you’ve had-

Dr Rad 1:03:21
The best kings, naturally.

Neil – History Hound 1:03:24
Stick to that and then we could talk about how great the Republicans in terms of you know, reshaping it. But these were important spaces, both culturally, and early on in Rome’s development, they were they were developed early for a reason. There was a great importance placed on efficiency. You didn’t just go, you know, fancy developing that area, because it’s nice. And in a few 100 years, 800 years, 900 years, 1000 years, well be worth quite a few quid. People want to build flats? You’re doing it because the immediate generation requires that that resource.

Dr Rad 1:03:57
We’d like a little less malaria, please.

Neil – History Hound 1:04:00
Yeah, a bit less.

Dr G 1:04:03
These hills are nice and all, but man, the mosquitoes

Yeah, too much. It’s too much.

Well, thank you so much, Neil, for sitting down with us and taking us through some of these fascinating details, because I think it’s always a useful exercise to go into that sort of exploratory space, like the intersections between what we can possibly know from an archaeological perspective, what we cannot possibly know because of the limits of that sort of understanding with continuous habitation and just our own inability to get come to grips with the changing nature of the topography over time, which is a natural process and also a human interference process, the further you go along, and to keep in mind that maybe we are all a bit like Livy, I really quite like that.

Neil – History Hound 1:04:57
Yeah, we’re trying to make the best of it. It’s a bit like when you have these detective, they they retrospectively find a detective in, you know, the medieval period or whatnot. And you’re like, okay, they’re working to the same methods, it’s just different technologies. And okay, they may not be doing the same way that we would do it. So I forget the name of there’s a, there was a brilliant show, Cadfael. So there’s Cadfael kicking around. And if anyone’s watched Cadfael, you know,

Dr G 1:05:25
I loved Cadfael.

Neil – History Hound 1:05:27
He’s not got CSI Miami, you know, he’s not, he can’t do a zoom into someone’s genetics on a Coke can or anything. But he’s applying a simple metric that sort of works. And that’s what Livy ultimately is doing. Because there is a lot of pride here. But also, I think the other tricky thing we need to remember. And it’s something which, again, you cover and touch upon in your book – dunno which chapter though – and it’s about – I’m still stirring – and it’s just about how we how we think of the spaces back in antiquity, and how we understand what we can possibly know about them. And I said, that’s something that I’m always I wouldn’t say, tortured by, but you live in hope that something’s going to pop up, that’s going to give you a bit more of an understanding, you know, these are people trying to make decisions. And we’re just going back to the point I made earlier, with Livy, I think there’s a tension there, because how can you have all these great, fantastic things that were built by kings, who were the worst. I mean, one of them was okay. But they were the worst.

Speaker 1 1:06:35
Hey! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, only one of them was really terrible.

Neil – History Hound 1:06:40
That could have been that could have been, this was the sort of bit of your book ‘Rex’ the worst, just the worst. Because actually, again, it is an internal tension within the whole narrative of the regal period is this that yeah, so and so started it, and they built it. And Livy often takes potshots at people going oh, yeah, but they will you know, they it did for them. But you know, there were uncouth. They didn’t mind their manners and the rest.

Dr Rad 1:07:06
Uncouth, my goodness. Shots fired, Livy.

Neil – History Hound 1:07:08
Absolutely. Livy’s dead, right? He’s dead. He’s not coming for me. I’m gonna get someone pop

Dr Rad 1:07:13
Well, you’ve certainly given me a lot to think about. I know that I’m definitely going to go to sleep tonight imagining how Livy’s history be different if he’d had access to drone technology.

Neil – History Hound 1:07:25
Yeah, and if nothing else, think of the My Little Pony show at the Circus Maximus where they dressed up their horses and and paraded them around and made them feel special.

Dr Rad 1:07:35
Well, listeners we hope that you have enjoyed listening to Neil’s absolutely mind blowing knowledge of the early geography of Rome. As you can tell it is well worth listening to Ancient History Hound, if you haven’t already started already. And Neil, thank you so much for joining us. It’s actually a very special episode, not just because it’s a part to a sequel, which we don’t often do, but because it’s actually technically Dr. G’s in my 11 year anniversary today.

Dr G 1:08:04
Oh, today!

Dr Rad 1:08:07
It’s actually on the first of March, but it’s almost the first of March in our time, and it is also a leap year.

Dr G 1:08:11
Oh that’s true.

Neil – History Hound 1:08:13
And if you hear a knock on the door, and there’s someone with a present, that wasn’t me, that’s purely coincidence. But I just want to say thanks very much. I really appreciate you having me on and been able to talk and I hope the listeners have really enjoyed it. Feel free to blame me.

Dr Rad 1:08:31
Oh, the pleasure is all ours.

Neil – History Hound 1:08:32
If you haven’t enjoyed it, If you haven’t enjoyed it, you can find me on social media.

Dr Rad 1:08:38
I think we’ve established that we don’t appreciate these sorts of comments.

Dr G 1:08:42
Five star reviews only.

Dr Rad 1:08:43
Thank you. Yeah, yes, exactly.

Dr G 1:08:46
Yeah, you can write whatever you want in the comment – five stars.

Dr Rad 1:08:49
You want to take your rage out anyone aim at the podcast on the massive networks. We’re independents.

Dr G 1:09:08
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book wrecks the seven kings of Rome at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours Ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger – Part 2 appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We jump into the year of 402 BCE and Rome and Veii are tooth and nail in siege mode. In addition to this, Rome is rapidly approaching the end of the 5th century BCE, a date that is meaningful for historians and scholars but less significant for the Romans who understood the years through the names of the magistrates more than being overly interested in the base ten system.

Episode 151 – Factional Foibles

Rome’s siege of Veii continues so there’s good reason to see six military tribunes with consular power in the role this year. But it may be the case that Rome’s military preoccupation with Veii is about to become costly. Just ask the Rome’s new garrison at Anxur in Volscian territory…

Now you’d be forgiven for thinking a siege is not the most exciting form of warfare. And if it was just Rome versus Veii, it may indeed have remained a boring affair. But sometime in this year, it seems that Veil’s northern neighbours have realised that Veii falling to Rome might be terrible for them. Enter the Capenantes and Falscians and cue siege chaos! How will the situation be resolved? Tune in to find out.

Map of Veii including cities to the north Capena (Capenantes) and Falerii (Falsicans).

Our theme music was composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman

Map of Veii from The Cities and Cemeteries of Etruria by George Dennis 1848

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr rad, no longer afraid to say my Ps

Dr G 1:03
And I am Dr G. Goodness knows what foreshadowing that entails.

Dr Rad 1:09
Well, I can definitely assure you there’ll be lots of patricians and plebeians running around in this episode. So it’s good not to have to worry about saying my Ps. Thanks very much. Patreons for the microphone buffery-sock type thing.

Dr G 1:22
Ah, the pop filter.

Dr Rad 1:24
Yes, exactly. I can say however many damn Ps I want now. Peas and ham. Peas and ham, peas and carrots.

Dr G 1:31
Mind your P’s and Q’s, please.

Dr Rad 1:34
I never do.

Dr G 1:36
Just like the patricians.

Dr Rad 1:38
Exactly. Well, welcome Dr, G, so good to see you again.

Dr G 1:42
Likewise.

Dr Rad 1:44
So we are hosting an ancient Roman History podcast, if you somehow manage to miss the introduction, and we are tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and Dr G, I think this might be the last episode before we cross the boundary to a new century.

Dr G 2:07
That’s very exciting.

Dr Rad 2:08
It is. I honestly kind of got very comfortable with the four hundreds. I kind of felt like we were never gonna leave.

Dr G 2:16
But time marches forward.

Dr Rad 2:19
Indeed it does. Before we get into 402 BCE, which is where we are up to, Dr G, I thought we should probably recap on what was a momentous year in 403 BCE.

Dr G 2:30
Yes. Now, if memory serves, 403 was the start of what will be the introduction of Camillus.

Dr Rad 2:38
It was, I mean, it was very, we’re touching that. Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 2:44
That’s the big standout for me, anyway. Me of few and fragmentary sources.

Dr Rad 2:49
Yes, yes, I understand you’re grasping at straws.

Dr G 2:54
Ouch.

Dr Rad 2:55
Yes. Now look 403. For Livy, it was certainly a bumpy year, because we had lots of speechifying from Appius Claudius, of course, saying a lot of things that were quite frankly, downright offensive.

Dr G 3:09
Typical Appius Claudius behavior, I would say.

Dr Rad 3:13
Yeah, and yet, there was an element of pragmatism to what he had to say. I acknowledge that. But really the reason why he was speechifying, Dr G, was that there were enormous issues, once again, between the patricians and the plebeians, because we are, of course, still in the Conflict of the Orders.

Dr G 3:34
That situation, it will have to resolve at some point. Or will it?

Dr Rad 3:38
Yeah, and it’s definitely the ongoing repercussions about this idea of soldiers serving all year round, the idea of military pay. These are the kinds of things that they are dealing with whilst waging a very long term campaign against the city of Veii, which is an Etruscan place.

Dr G 3:57
Yes, and Etruscans, they’re just to the north of the Romans, there’s a lot of cross cultural exchange going on, and it has been for a long time, but it seems that the conflict is coming to a head, as it were, in this period. So it is, we’re seeing an escalation of the conflict.

Dr Rad 4:16
Yeah, it’s been going on. It’s been keeping us company, really, all throughout the four hundreds. You know, every now and then, just when we think things are getting peaceful, conflict with they appears again.

Dr G 4:25
Well, yes, and if you’ll indulge me.

Dr Rad 4:27
Oh, I always am willing to indulge you.

Dr G 4:30
Since I lack vast amounts of source material

Dr Rad 4:34
fair enough,

Dr G 4:34
I thought I would do a little bit of a recap on, like, some of the touchstones of the relationship between Veii and Rome so far.

Dr Rad 4:42
Oh, okay, yeah, this is a recap. I’m settling in.

Dr G 4:46
Sit back and relax, listeners. So we have Romulus’ victory over Veii very early.

Dr Rad 4:56
Just how short of source material are you?

Dr G 4:59
Very! It’s embarrassing how few sources I have. Ancus Marcius also is reputed to have a victory over Veii. Then we have a couple of characters, and I’m not sure that we’ve touched on them very much in particular, Aulus and Caelius Verbenna.

Dr Rad 5:20
Now, these are people whose names are familiar to me because of the Servius Tullius connection.

Dr G 5:27
Now, these are brothers from Vulci, and Rome is thought to have been in some sort of mediation with Veii about receiving these two.

Dr Rad 5:38
Right.

Dr G 5:39
And then we have Servius Tullius himself having his own war with Veii.

Dr Rad 5:43
Hmmm, he does.

Dr G 5:46
And then there’s a whole Tarquinius mystery. Is it Tarquinius Priscus? Is it Tarquinius Superbus? There is a request for Veii to send their master craftsman, a guy called Vulca, to come to Rome to do some terracotta work.

Dr Rad 6:04
Sounds important.

Dr G 6:06
It is because it’s related to the gods, and apparently some of the things in the Capitoline Temple, the very early version-

Dr Rad 6:14
Ooo I remember that

Dr G 6:16
-were produced by this master craftsman from Veii,

Dr Rad 6:20
Typical Etruscans.

Dr G 6:21
So a little bit of cultural exchange, and then we’re right back into conflict.

Dr Rad 6:26
Actual conflict.

Dr G 6:27
Actual conflict. So they support Taquinius Superbus when he’s exiled from Rome; a bit of a safe haven for him there…

Dr Rad 6:34
Because they’re the worst.

It certainly doesn’t put them in Rome’s good books. And when we get to the Republic, almost the first thing that happens is Valerius Publicola, very famous, very loved by the people.

Absolutely.

Dr G 6:49
He triumphs over Veii in 509.

Dr Rad 6:52
Naturally.

Dr G 6:53
Doesn’t take him long to be like, You know what? Veii’s no good. We need to deal with that, it doesn’t matter if we don’t have kings anymore,

Dr Rad 6:59
They’re too close,

Dr G 7:00
They’re too close, and we don’t like it

Dr Rad 7:01
Too close. Too close for comfort!

Dr G 7:04
Way too close. And you know, who else thinks they’re too close?

Dr Rad 7:07
Sammy Davis Jr.

Dr G 7:11
Well, yes. But also the Fabii

Dr Rad 7:14
Ah, of course.

Dr G 7:15
Yeah, the whole gens goes to war against Veii. Completely unsuccessful. Wipes them all out, basically. Except for one, apparently,

Dr Rad 7:24
Ohhh he managed to spread his seed.

Dr G 7:27
And lucky, otherwise, the family would have been gone absolutely. So part of the issue for the Fabii seems to be that their territory is part of the adjacent landscape of Veii’s area of control.

Dr Rad 7:42
Wait, are you telling me that patricians were acting out of self interest?

Dr G 7:46
I would never suggest such a thing.

Dr Rad 7:49
Wow.

Dr G 7:50
But I might openly tell you, it’s certainly what’s going on. It seems in 477, and it’s a big loss.

Dr Rad 7:59
It is.

Dr G 8:00
It’s a blow for Rome. There’s no question about that moment.

Dr Rad 8:03
A moment of silence for Camera.

Dr G 8:06
This leads to a truce between Veii and Rome in 474, which quickly is overturned by Veii, because they don’t seem to care about that truce.

Dr Rad 8:14
Why would they? They just really, really won a massive victory.

Dr G 8:17
Yeah, and they use that truce to then take Fidenae.

Dr Rad 8:20
Ah Fidenae.

Dr G 8:22
Yeah, going back into the memory books

Dr Rad 8:24
Such a sore spot.

Dr G 8:26
And this really makes Rome mad, and they’re like, You know what, not happy about this, and they’re even less happy when they find out that they has elevated a guy called Lars Tolumnius to be the king.

Dr Rad 8:37
Ah Lars Tolumnius.

Dr G 8:38
It doesn’t end well for him. I think there was some stabbing to the groin. It wasn’t great.

Dr Rad 8:45
No, it wasn’t.

Dr G 8:46
But the Faliscans, who are nearby neighbors as well, they support Veii in this offensive against Rome, led by Lars Tolumnius. Doesn’t go well; Veii loses.

Dr Rad 8:56
They do.

Dr G 8:57
A new truce is formed.

Dr Rad 8:59
It is indeed

Dr G 9:00
So that’s and that’s what 437

Dr Rad 9:04
Well, if we believe the dates, yeah.

Dr G 9:08
I would suggest caution. But let’s say hypothetically, 437 that we’ve got this whole relationship between Veii and Rome that extends back right to the early kingship period, as far as our written sources are concerned. And this would probably make sense, because they’re so close geographically.

Dr Rad 9:26
Well, that’s just it. I mean, there’s always, I think going to be that conflict between the Etruscans in general and the Romans, because the Romans aspire to be a great empire in the sense that they want to expand. Obviously, like, I’m not saying right at this point. They’re like, Oh, and a Mediterranean Empire would be lovely, but they obviously want to expand. They obviously are an ambitious people’s, let’s say, and the Etruscans therefore gonna stand in their way. You know.

Dr G 9:55
Yeah, and there’s nothing quite like having your close neighbor sort of just. Sort of push the fence one meter, exactly, cutting off a little bit of your space, to open up a little bit of space for them taking your cow, yeah. And when you say, excuse me, yeah,

Dr Rad 10:13
excuse me,

Dr G 10:14
excuse me, what are you doing? And it’s like, no, no. That fence has always been there, yeah?

Dr Rad 10:21
And that’s when they go to the central records department and they have to put an application to look at the property boundaries.

Dr G 10:27
Everybody’s got to look at the standing stone ring. Like, Oh, guys, did you move that rock in the night? No, certainly not. Not I.

Dr Rad 10:34
Not I. Way too heavy.

Dr G 10:36
And when the cows start moving in a different language, and you’re like, wait a minute

Dr Rad 10:41
Excuse me?

Dr G 10:44
Are you speaking Etruscan? And it’s like, moo,

Dr Rad 10:46
Yeah, exactly suspicious.

Dr G 10:48
So yeah, we’ve got this sort of long history of conflict. This long build up has is on the cards. So it’s not a surprise that we’re now in this what seems to be like a bit of a showdown situation.

Dr Rad 11:00
It is a showdown, as I said, Harry Potter, Voldemort, one of them has to die in order for this situation to work. And that’s where we were at last time. So in 403, there was a there was a lot of debate about what was going to happen internally, as in, like, where were they going to take this whole idea of winter service and military pay, and how this was going to work. And this why Appius Claudius got on his little soapbox, but it took a disaster at Veii, you know, on the front lines during this siege warfare that they’ve got going on in order to win everybody over to the idea of, look, guys, we’ve just got a soldier on and do our bit. And Rome ended up in a really lovely place in that we had all these people volunteering to serve. Essentially, this story is clearly trying to tell us that this is a moment when we see an expansion of the cavalry in Rome, because we had the men-who-have-horses,-but-the-state-doesn’t-pay-for-them-yet club turn into the men-who-have-horses-and-the-state-pays-for-them club.

Dr G 11:56
Sweet.

Dr Rad 11:57
I know. So we’ve obviously got the expansion of the army, which is following on the back of this idea of military pay and people who actually serving all year round, potentially, and that’s kind of where we ended up. So Rome was in a really happy place, because everyone felt like, you know what, we’re all working together.

Dr G 12:14
Although, having the equestrians have their cavalry side paid for by the state. Does sound like rich people giving a handout to other rich people? And I’m not sure that I’m on board with that…

Dr Rad 12:27
Isn’t that what Rome is all about?

Dr G 12:30
No wonder the Conflict of the Orders isn’t over.

Dr Rad 12:32
Exactly, exactly. And so 403, we did end up in a happy place, in that everyone felt really awesome about everyone volunteering, not just cavalry, infantry, two lots of people saying, Sign me up. I’ll do whatever it takes. Appius Claudius, you’re the man. And that’s kind of where we ended up in a in a real party situation, yeah. And so I think it’s time for me, for us, to delve into 402 BCE.

All right. Dr, G, given your paucity of source material. Please tell me who are the magistracies for 402 BCE?

Dr G 13:39
Thank you for this gift. It’ll be the last time I speak in this episode. Listen carefully. So we have six military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 13:50
Six you say? Methinks Rome might be at war.

Dr G 13:54
It is an awful lot, maybe too many. Anyway, we have Gaius Servilius Ahala, one of our recent favorites, one of our recent guys, previously military tribune with consular power in 408 and 407 is bad. We then have Quintus Servilius Fidenas. This is the start of what will be an illustrious career.

Dr Rad 14:21
And clearly he has some sort of relation to the colony of Fidenae, I would say.

Dr G 14:26
One would assume or the conquest of Fidenae.

Dr Rad 14:29
Exactly.

Dr G 14:30
Yeah. Then we have Lucius Verginius Opiter Tricostus Esquilinus.

Dr Rad 14:37
Unusual name.

Dr G 14:39
Oh, well, see, this is why we’re friends. I’ve written “most unusual name” in my notes.

Dr Rad 14:44
I mean, most of it’s fine. It’s that Opiter.

Dr G 14:48
Opiter is odd, and I don’t think we’ve seen it before.

Dr Rad 14:51
We certainly have not. All the rest totally normal.

Dr G 14:53
Yeah. And Opiter is a praenomen. So to give the full extent of his name. He’s: Lucius Verginiu, son of Lucius, granson of Opiter, Tricostus Esquilinus. So Opiter is the name of the grandfather. And you would think, well, that’s odd, because the prinomens follow a very sort of specific pattern. There’s not that many of them. We haven’t encountered an Opiter before. What’s going on? Now we have a very late source called the “Fragments of Praenomens”,

Dr Rad 15:27
Oh, okay

Dr G 15:27
Which is amazing.

Dr Rad 15:28
I’ve never heard of it before. Tell me more.

Dr G 15:30
The “Fragmentvm de Praenominibus”

Dr Rad 15:34
Well done. Well done.

Dr G 15:35
Yeah, thank you, tripping over my Latin wherever I can. And the suggestion there is that Opiter is the name given to a son whose father had died but whose grandfather still lived.

Dr Rad 15:49
Wow.

Dr G 15:50
Yeah. Like, yeah. This is a sort of complicated scenario where, yeah, the first generation is missing somehow at the birth of the child, yeah, but I don’t know why that would necessarily so now you have to call so whatever happened in this family line? The guy called Opiter is the guy who must have been born without his own father, right, having been alive at the time.

Dr Rad 16:15
It’s quite a family history in that name then.

Dr G 16:17
Yeah

Dr Rad 16:18
And the twist

Dr G 16:19
Plot twist! Yeah, not everybody lives. Disaster. So we might see some of those sorts of names coming up again, but it does tend to be quite unusual.

Dr Rad 16:30
I’m intrigued, yes.

Dr G 16:32
Likewise, we also have Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus.

Dr Rad 16:40
Sounds like a delicious ice cream.

Dr G 16:43
What flavor do would you like? Camerinus Cornutus, of course.

Dr Rad 16:46
Exactly. I love a Cornutus in the summer.

Dr G 16:49
This guy is also new to the role, but he does have form. There is a bit of a legacy with this family as well. Then I don’t think we’ve seen a Cornutus for a little while.

Dr Rad 16:59
No, but I feel like we have. And, you know, I probably should mention, Dr G, because I’m assuming that Cornetto ice creams are found worldwide, but they may indeed just be an Australian delight. So I’m just going to say that that’s what I’m referring to. I believe they’re at least in the UK, but yeah, for anyone else who lives in a non Cornetto land, I apologize for my in-joke about ice cream,

Dr G 17:22
If you do not have cornettos, please like, share and subscribe and tell us all about what ice creams you do have.

Dr Rad 17:29
Exactly, we’d love to know.

Dr G 17:32
So the chief legacy of the Cornetto is that you can – it’s about eating the cone as well as the ice cream. You think to yourself, that’s not special. But somehow, when you’re a child, that’s very special.

Dr Rad 17:41
It is, yeah.

Dr G 17:44
So the Cornuti or Cornutii, I suppose I should say, go back to the Regal period.

Dr Rad 17:50
Okay.

Dr G 17:51
One of these guy’s ancestors is somebody who was conspiring to restore the Tarquins back into power. Super. So we’re talking an arch conservative family.

Dr Rad 18:02
Yeah. Uh-oh you’re in trouble.

Dr G 18:09
And then jumping forward 50 or so years, yeah, another Cornutii was one of the decemvirs, so the form is strong with this one.

Dr Rad 18:22
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Dr G 18:24
Let us not go back to those dark days.

Dr Rad 18:28
Where did that take us? Like 20 episodes to get through the Decemvirate which apparently lasted for two years, disaster.

Dr G 18:35
This is what happens when you make a mess out of the political situation. Guys, we have to spend ages trying to figure out what’s going on. Our fifth military tribune with consular power is Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, also previously military tribune with consular power in 405, and you might see him again in the future.

Dr Rad 18:57
I think I might.

Dr G 18:57
And last, but certainly not least, Maelius Sergius Fidenas.

Dr Rad 19:04
Another with the connection to Fidenae.

Dr G 19:07
Indeed, and he was previously in the same post in 404. So yeah, we’ve got a so it’s kind of like a balance between people who are new to the role, yeah, and people who have served before.

Dr Rad 19:19
Indeed, it is. Well, I’m exhausted, end of episode,

Dr G 19:24
And we’re done. Thanks for tuning in.

Dr Rad 19:26
Yeah. Okay, so as you pointed out, we do have a real mixture of people who are serving as consular tribunes. However, one thing that we do not have a mixture of, Dr G, is patricians and plebeians. Once again, it’s an entirely patrician cast of characters.

Dr G 19:40
It is a clean sweep for the elite.

Dr Rad 19:42
Yes, it is now, as you can imagine, given the fact that we had a disaster at Veii last time, the Romans are very focused on what’s happening at Veii at this point in time. However, unfortunately, they don’t seem to be able to multitask, because whilst they’re focusing on Veii they neglect the new garrison at Anxur.

Dr G 20:04
Uh oh. Now Anxur has come up before, hasn’t it?

Dr Rad 20:08
We just spoke about it. They have just conquered it. So it’s a very recent addition to the Roman, dare I say, Empire…

Dr G 20:17
And they are about to lose it again.

Dr Rad 20:19
Well, okay, so what basically happened was they were obviously feeling pretty confident, I guess, about what was happening there, and they therefore gave a lot of the soldiers furlough. So a lot of the soldiers skipping through the neighboring fields and making daisy chains and going shopping in nearby towns, just having a grand old time. However, even those who were left behind because obviously, they didn’t literally let everybody go, that would be madness. They do have guards, but the guards aren’t really checking people properly. So they’re not getting them to take off their shoes. They’re not getting their laptops, you know, in the tray. They’re just allowing people who are Volscians – and Anxur we should probably say was initially Volscians territory just allowing volscians traders in and out without properly checking. What are they carrying with them? Who are they? Where’s your passport? Where’s your five forms of identification? I’m

Dr G 21:15
I’m just gonna have to look into your cart for a moment.

Dr Rad 21:18
Exactly. Yeah, there’s none of that happening. And so as soon as the Volscians realize, I guess, that this is what’s going on, they very quickly overpower the tiny guard force that has been left behind, and Anxur is retaken.

Dr G 21:33
Oh, disaster.

Dr Rad 21:34
I know. I can’t believe it, because it was such a big win when they took this place, sloppy work. It really is. Now, the only silver lining is that not a lot of Romans perish during this because, of course, they’re all out shopping. I was gonna say they’re all in the fields having picnics and stuff. They’re in the neighboring area, but they’re not actually in the town. Hence the problem. The only people who die are those who’d been left behind because they were too sick to go, which seems really sad.

Dr G 22:00
Oh, okay, so they had worked hard to capture Anxur, but they had been injured in the process, and now they had paid for it with their lives.

Dr Rad 22:08
Well, Livy actually does say sick. I’m not sure if they’re actually I’m not sure if it’s like an injury, per se. He’s not, he’s not very specific.

Dr G 22:15
They’ve just come down with a heavy cold, exactly like I can’t get up.

Dr Rad 22:18
Yeah, go shopping for me. Guys, bring me back a daisy chain. Anyway, so that’s not good news. Now let’s shift our attention today, because I’m sure you’re dying to know what’s happening there. Once again, Dr. G, I find myself in a familiar situation, one which amuses me, but also frustrates me, and that is that the commanders who are in charge at they, at this point in time, seem to be far more preoccupied without doing each other than in actually defeating they. And we have seen this a number of times with our patricians.

Dr G 22:55
I was gonna say this is part of the trouble of being part of the elite is that your primary focus is one upmanship. It is not the good of the state.

Dr Rad 23:06
No, it isn’t. And this is very evident. So basically, not much is happening at bay because they’re just like looking at each other, going, what are you doing? I don’t know what are you doing?

Dr G 23:15
Well, sounds like a classic siege. People have got their magazines out and, you know, solving sudokus together from across the wall, somebody on the defensive side is like, have you tried three in that square?

Dr Rad 23:28
And the commanders are saying, I solve the New York Times crossword puzzle. You what? That’s impossible. Anyway, there’s a little bit more pressure added, though, because all of a sudden, Dr G, Veii has some allies that join the siege.

Dr G 23:43
Oh

Dr Rad 23:44
Yeah, I know. Now, famously, when they went to the rest of Etruria and said, Hey, how about we Etruscan power this and just defeat Rome together? And they all said, How about no?

Dr G 23:56
With our powers combined, we are Captain Etruria!

Dr Rad 23:59
Exactly. And they said, No, we’re not doing that. The suits are lame and we can’t be bothered. So no one was perhaps expecting that this was going to happen. But Appius Claudius did warn that this was a possibility. You know that you don’t know how long the Etruscans are going to allow Veii to fly solo. And sure enough, we get the Capenates and the Faliscans joining in the fun. Now, this actually makes complete sense. It’s not because they’re looking at Veii going, Oh, look at them all alone fighting Rome. It’s because they are relatively close to Veii.

Dr G 24:36
I was gonna say, is it because they’re the next dominos to fall?

Dr Rad 24:39
Exactly. They’ve put two and two and two together. It’s taken a couple of years, but they’ve gone wait a second…

Dr G 24:44
Hold up…

Dr Rad 24:45
If there’s no more Veii, that means that the Romans are gonna be looking at us.

Dr G 24:49
Veii is a great buffer place. We should probably retain that,

Dr Rad 24:54
Exactly, and they suddenly realize this. Now I actually do have a map which is uncharacteristic

Dr G 25:00
I was gonna say, goodness me. Dr. Rad, what is going on?

Dr Rad 25:03
Because I knew you’re gonna say, I knew you’re gonna say, where exactly are these places?

Dr G 25:06
Yeah, because I certainly haven’t looked them up, because I don’t have enough source material to know that they were even mentioned.

Dr Rad 25:11
Well, look, I’m glad I had a map, because it’s really difficult to describe this. They are north of a, like, directly north of a so it is literally a domino effect that we’re talking about here. Look, they’re slightly, like the Capenates are probably slightly northeast, perhaps, but essentially, if Veii falls, you can totally see that they are the next in line, and the Faliscans are just a little bit beyond them.

Dr G 25:34
Alright, so they both have a pretty vested interest in making sure Veii has a high level of defense and gets through this siege unscathed.

Dr Rad 25:42
Yeah, absolutely. Now, in terms of who these people are, obviously, we don’t have tons of information about them, but they seem to have spoken a dialect of Latin.

Dr G 25:53
Oh, intriguing.

Dr Rad 25:54
I know, right.

Dr G 25:55
This would make Veii then a cultural outpost amongst Etrurian cities, if they’re surrounded by Latin speakers.

Dr Rad 26:04
A dialect of Latin. I mean, I don’t know how close that we I don’t know how close we’re talking, but yes, yeah, it is interesting, certainly. But it just speaks to the melting pot that is this region where Etruria and the Latins are meeting.

Dr G 26:18
Yeah, definitely.

Dr Rad 26:19
Yeah. Anywho now, the Romans already did not like the Faliscans, which I think is a shame, because I find their name delightful, but this is because they had fought on the wrong side in the fight over Fidenae, which you mentioned in your recap.

Dr G 26:35
Mistakes were made.

Dr Rad 26:36
Mistakes were made. Now what this means is we have got reinforced troops massively hitting the Roman camp. Okay, the Romans are scared out of their little tunics because this is completely unexpected, and it seems like the people of they weren’t expecting it either, like the Capenates and the Faliscans literally just like, rock up. And they’re like, let’s do this. I gotta get home before my slow cooker goes off. Yeah. Now where they hit the Roman camp is right where Maelius Sergius is commanding.

Dr G 27:12
Awkward.

Dr Rad 27:12
Yeah, okay. They think that maybe this is a sign that all of Etruria is uniting against them now, which would be terrifying.

Dr G 27:23
It’s a sign, guys, they’re all coming. It’s just these ones got here first.

Dr Rad 27:27
Yeah exactly, these are the closest. Now the people in the town of a also feel their morale rising, because they’re also like, oh my god, is this a sign that all of Etruria is uniting against the Romans. So everyone who’s having very strong emotions about this scenario here. Yeah, and it basically means that the Roman camp is being attacked from two different sides.

Dr G 27:49
It’s never a good sign in a military situation, when you’re you’ve got to defend against two frontiers.

Dr Rad 27:55
Exactly.

Dr G 27:56
Anybody who study any warfare is already being like, Uh oh, yeah, not looking good.

Dr Rad 28:00
Don’t be surrounded. Yeah. Now this is obviously totally surprising, and so the soldiers are really struggling with this sudden scenario, and they’re not really dealing with either attack very well. As a result, it’s, I think, a bit of a scramble, if we’re being honest,

Dr G 28:15
I was gonna say, and it’s like, you know, it takes time to put down your crossword and put your breastplate on, get yourself in formation and think about whether it’s going to be a tortoise or whatever.

Dr Rad 28:25
Yeah. So this particular camp, they’re hoping that the Romans in the main camp will see what’s happening, or find out what’s happening and send help stat. Then they would be able, with their reinforcements to deal with the fact that they’re being attacked from completely different directions. However, the main camp is under the control of a different military tribune with consular power, one Verginius,

Dr G 28:52
Hmm okay.

Dr Rad 28:54
Now Sergius and Verginius. These are our military tribunes with consular power that have major beef and hate each other’s guts.

Dr G 29:05
Oh no. Why do we think that is? Or does Livy give us some rationale here?

Dr Rad 29:09
No, just that they hate each other.

Dr G 29:12
It’s just the way it goes. When you’re a patrician, some of those guys you can’t stand, and some of them are your best friends.

Dr Rad 29:18
Exactly, exactly. Now back in the main camp, Verginius does hear about the danger that the Romans are in, but he refuses to do anything about it, saying that, look, if Sergius needs help, he’ll ask for it. I’m not going to send help. If he doesn’t ask for it, he can handle it, obviously, up until that point, but he has to ask. Sergius refuses to ask for help because he does not want Verginius stealing his victory. He would rather lose than have Verginius come to his rescue and win.

Dr G 29:50
Oh well, Sergius, I hate to break it to you, but that’s hubris, and I don’t know if it’s going to work out for you.

Dr Rad 29:55
It is not going to work out for you

Dr G 29:56
This is what. So I think this is where virtus, this idea of Roman manliness, which is all about the courage and being on the front foot and doing it yourself and all of that kind of stuff, gets twisted potentially into some dangerous behaviors, just ego that may not play out very well.

Dr Rad 30:19
Yeah, so basically, we have the most hideous sandwich situation I’ve ever seen, where Romans are being attacked on either side, they’re just being slaughtered in the middle of these two attacking forces, and eventually they just have to give up and run.

Dr G 30:34
Oh no. And the central camp has done nothing.

Dr Rad 30:37
Done nothing because they’ve been waiting for a specific request for help.

Dr G 30:42
Lame.

Dr Rad 30:43
Yeah. Now only a small amount of those who manage to run away actually make it back to the main camp, the main part of the army that manages to get out, plus Sergius, they run back to Rome.

Dr G 30:57
Now, fair enough, I will probably do that as well be like guys, yeah.

Dr Rad 31:01
Now the advantage of this happening is that Sergius then throws Verginius right under the bus, places all the blame for what has just happened on wiginius and demanding that he be recalled and lieutenants placed in charge of the main camp.

Dr G 31:19
Oooh. So deposed actually from being a military tribune with consular power?

Dr Rad 31:24
Well, sorry, actually, reface that, I think. Just recalled from his command.

Dr G 31:28
Okay.

Dr Rad 31:29
Yeah, yeah, so recalled from being in charge of the main camp. The Senate discussed the issue. They are supremely unimpressed by what is going on here. And it kind of seems like maybe the Senate as well has split loyalties between Sergius and Verginius as well. There’s a lot of slappy fighting going,

Dr G 31:52
Well, look, this doesn’t surprise me. This is kind of we’re now in the factional politics.

Dr Rad 31:57
It is 100% factional, yeah. So no one is really thinking about, hey, what about Rome? What about the state? They’re all just thinking about these guys. Eventually, the leading senators say, You know what, rather than get caught up in this beef between these two guys, let’s just not deal with their fighting. Let’s just ignore them and just get rid of all the tribunes for this year and have elections early. But just like clean slate it guys, can’t be bothered. Can’t be bothered.

Dr G 32:29
Okay, but is the consequence of this that they will recall all of the armed forces that are sitting under those military tribunes that are outside Veii?

Dr Rad 32:39
I don’t think so. Because obviously, given that we’ve got a siege going on here, and there would be people who are underneath these men, I think that they’d be temporarily in charge whilst they sorted out elections, right?

Dr G 32:51
Okay.

Dr Rad 32:51
They don’t specifically say this, but there’s no word of ending the siege, so I presume that that’s what would happen, that they would just leave someone in charge and get some new ones? Yeah,

Dr G 33:01
Yeah, the Senate sends you a little letter being like, you’re out of here having elections.

Dr Rad 33:05
Either that or those men continue to serve until their replacements arrive. But yeah, there’s no, there’s no mention made of ending the siege at Veii. It’s just this situation of you know what? It would just be easier just to toss these ones out and get new ones, an attitude I do not endorse when it comes to consumable goods in our modern day world,

Dr G 33:24
but certainly applicable for politicians,

Dr Rad 33:25
It certainly is. Now the other military tribunes with consular power who actually really are the victims here because they’ve done nothing wrong. They’re okay with this. So the senators are getting ready to vote, but then Sergius and Verginius come and say, oh my god, can like, can you just like, not do this? It’d be like, so embarrassing if this is how our careers end. Like, this is how our, you know, stint as military tribunes with consular power, like, came to an end? Like, please just like, don’t like,

Dr G 33:59
But isn’t this already having been instigated by Sergius in some way?

Dr Rad 34:05
Oh, he 100% brought it upon himself.

Dr G 34:07
But now, but he doesn’t want he’s like, now that the Senate has decided that they’re just going to get rid of this lot, he’s like, Excuse me, that’s not the solution?

Dr Rad 34:15
I think he was hoping that Verginius would get recalled and he would be able to trot off and, you know, go back to the campaign.

Dr G 34:22
Sergius is having a sad in Rome.

Dr Rad 34:25
Yeah, absolutely. So they had decided that they were just going to veto what the Senate had decided. Because at this point in time, obviously senatorial decisions are not like legally binding. It’s just like a recommendation, like, have you thought of having Have you considered elections? Yeah, and obviously, if everyone was going to go along with it, I don’t know, you know, I don’t know how much they really could have done here, but they were basically like, No, this is not going to happen over my dead body. I’m not going to give up power day early. And don’t you dare ask me. Now this is where the tribunes of the plebs come into the story.

Dr G 35:03
Ah ha.

Dr Rad 35:03
They had said nothing up to this point. They’ve been very good. They had been itching to say something, but they thought it was best not to, after everything that happened the year before, what was Appius Claudius giving an epic speech that just never ended. We don’t want to impose that on anyone.

Dr G 35:18
We don’t want to sit through that again.

Dr Rad 35:19
We do not. But now they demand that the military tribunes, as in Sergius and Verginius, obey the Senate, or it’s straight to prison with the two of you, and you can think about what you have done.

Dr G 35:33
We’ve got a naughty room. It’s time to put some people in it.

Dr Rad 35:36
Exactly. Now, this is where Ahala makes his appearance.

Dr G 35:41
Mr Armpit himself

Dr Rad 35:43
Indeed. So he is one of the other military tribunes with consular power. He has done nothing wrong up until this point.

Dr G 35:49
A military tribune with consular power of the name Ahala?

Dr Rad 35:53
Yes, he was the first one on your list.

Dr G 35:55
Well, no, I mean, he’s a military tribune with consular power, as far as I’m aware.

Dr Rad 36:00
Wait, what did I say? He’s a military tribune with consular power. So,

Dr G 36:06
Yeah, I thought you said he was a tribune.

Dr Rad 36:08
No, okay, let me rephrase this. Okay, so the tribunes of the plebs have come along and done the threat, then one of the other military tribunes with consular power responds to this threat.

Dr G 36:19
Okay, okay.

Dr Rad 36:20
All right, so Ahala makes his appearance, and he says, I’d like to see the tribunes of the plebs try to throw one of us in prison. You have absolutely no right to do that. Once again, tributes of the plebs going mad with power and imagining they have all these magical possibilities.

Dr G 36:43
Yeah. I mean, they’re supposed to be looking after the plebeian concerns. You know, you can’t go after patricians like this.

Dr Rad 36:49
Yeah. He’s like, You know what? I don’t think you have the guts to do it anyway. All you guys do is hang around Rome and wait for fights between the military tribunes with consular power, and then you just swoop in and cause problems right now. If you keep making this an issue, Ahala is prepared to name a dictator. He’ll name a dictator right now, and then the dictator can do whatever the hell they like, and the tribune of the plebs can’t do nothing about it.

Dr G 37:21
Okay, well, there’s a big threat.

Dr Rad 37:23
Exactly, and everyone’s like Ahala, that was amazing. We love you and we love the sentiment. So the other military tribunes, they all agree, after this whole exchange, that it would do best just to throw the towel in and resign early. Okay?

Dr G 37:41
So rather than put a dictator in place, they’re going to take the recommended measure by the Senate?

Dr Rad 37:48
Yeah, and just resign early.

Dr G 37:51
Yeah, so it’s gotten – the whole thing – tensions have escalated to such a point, and people have been making all sorts of threats, yeah, and now they’re like, Okay, we’ll step down early.

Dr Rad 38:00
It kind of ends abruptly. I was, I was gearing up for something really epic here, but that’s where it ends.

Dr G 38:05
Yeah, look, I feel like that. That is not the situation. It doesn’t feel narratively like what you think it’s going to be.

Dr Rad 38:16
It really doesn’t, especially because I kind of agree with Ahala, I don’t think the tribunes of the plebs have the right to throw the military tribunes with consular power into prison.

Dr G 38:25
No, that would seem unlikely. They could probably maybe suggest it to the people and see what happens,

Dr Rad 38:33
Yeah, sure

Dr G 38:33
And maybe put it to a vote, that might be a possibility.

Dr Rad 38:37
Maybe that’s what they were hinting at. We’re going to start a lengthy bureaucratic process. You just wait and see.

Dr G 38:44
Roll up, roll up. It’s the first round of voting. Or will we put some patricians in jail?

Dr Rad 38:50
That’s really all that happens in 402. That’s it.

Dr G 38:53
Okay. Yeah, all right. Now I do have some details, most of which I think I can’t relate to you right now, because I don’t know where we are in terms of the actual siege itself and the fragmentary details that I do have, I don’t think are currently relevant.

Dr Rad 39:18
Well, I think this is because of the dating issue. So I’m going to give you a bit of a hint, Dr, G because I feel like it’ll be useful for you. So in the next year, in 401 BCE, there is this reference where one of the historical characters we are dealing with, he makes reference to how long the siege, slash, war against Veii has been going on. And it’s wrong. Like, according to, according to what Livy has been building up, it does, like the numbers don’t add up, which is exactly what I said to you and we got into this whole thing. Oh, numbers don’t add up. They’ve added two years because they want to make it a 10 year conflict, so that it’s like the Trojan War. So sometimes these little mistakes creep in, which let us know that the dating is a little off. So I think you’re probably right to be suspicious of where I’m supposedly at and where you’re supposedly at. But yeah, you can see that potentially, the Romans are stringing things out a little bit, and they’ve inserted some time, definitely.

Dr G 40:15
And we’ve known that Rome has this issue with chronology, and it’s had it for a little while now.

Dr Rad 40:21
I have a chronological issue. It can’t be fixed. It’s chronic.

Dr G 40:27
How long has it been happening? A long time.

Dr Rad 40:30
Or has it?

Dr G 40:32
Ehh the questions. So the chronological issue seems most evident in the discrepancy between some of the source material, sure. So Livy thinks we’re in what, 402.

Dr Rad 40:46
Yeah.

Dr G 40:46
And it has been the case that he has been in discrepancy with Diodorus Siculus for years now, about where they’re up to in terms of the timeline, yeah, because Diodorus Siculus is following along pretty methodically. He doesn’t always get everything right, but he is about two to three years ahead of Livy at every turn. So the year he tells us that Aristocrates is the Archon in Athens right is the year 399, to 398, okay? And that’s the same year that he lists six military tribunes, although only names five, he says they’re six, but only names five, and that list matches up almost in its entirety with the list that we get for 402.

Dr Rad 41:34
Gotcha.

Dr G 41:35
So this discrepancy has been around for a little while now, but we don’t know how to resolve it, and the Romans don’t know how to resolve it either. No. And there’s obviously that really attractive 10 year Homeric element to the siege of a which you’ve mentioned before, yeah, as well. So there’s a literary reason for why they want it to be 10 years.

Dr Rad 41:59
Oh, yeah. And look, I always say this also has something to do with, like, family traditions as well, like the Verginii being placed at this moment, as you’ll see when I get into my next year as well. I think you’ll see that, yeah, it all kind of, there’s a reason that it’s all coming together this way. So I’d say he’s relying potentially, on bit of family traditions here.

Dr G 42:20
Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. And so one of the ways that I’ve tried to navigate real absence of source material is looking at Dio Cassius.

Dr Rad 42:31
Okay…

Dr G 42:34
So a small segue. Dio Cassius, dear friends of the podcast, this is a third century CE historian.

Dr Rad 42:45
So, yeah, hang on. Let me think so that means that he’s like, Hang on. Let me think that means that he is about what, 600 years after?

Dr G 42:51
600 years out, yeah. So does he know what he’s talking about? We don’t know. But the trouble for us with Dio Cassius right now, because he does write a history of Rome from the beginning, he does the whole analytic thing, very ambitious, and he goes up to his own time period, which is kind of amazing. And we have good, good chunks of Dio Cassius, but not for this period of the history. We’ve only got fragments, we’ve got little bits that are preserved in later epitomes, right? And we’ve got little bits and pieces that seem to be preserved in a Constantinian source.

Dr Rad 43:25
Right.

Dr G 43:26
So the things that I can tell you about the siege that are in Dio Cassius, I’m going to keep in reserve, because I’m pretty sure they’re going to come up later.

Dr Rad 43:36
I would say so.

Dr G 43:37
And I’m not going to mention them now, but I do want to flag that this is a historian who’s also done some work on this, and we’re not really quite sure entirely about his early sources. Either we’re not certain that he’s reading Livy or basing everything that he’s written about this period from Livy.

Dr Rad 43:53
I was going to ask because obviously Livy would be an obvious source, because he’s earlier.

Dr G 44:00
Exactly, and so chances are he probably had read Livy.

Dr Rad 44:04
Sure.

Dr G 44:04
But it seems like there’s enough differences in his account that he’s as well. He’s using other sources as well. Yeah, some scholars think that he’s using Ennius.

Dr Rad 44:13
Ooh, okay, an early source.

Dr G 44:16
An early source. So ennius is writing in what the second century BCE

Dr Rad 44:20
I think so.

Dr G 44:23
And Ennius writes this big epic, the Annales, which becomes quite famous for the Romans for a really good period of time before it’s overtaken by Virgil’s Aeneid. But that’s also a history and a also interested in the figure of Camillus. So it’s kind of like all of my sources are trying to get me to Camillus, and we’re not there yet.

Dr Rad 44:46
Didn’t even mention him, Dr. G.

Dr G 44:48
So we’re not going to go down that path just yet.

Dr Rad 44:51
No, but He’s coming.

Dr G 44:52
He’s coming.

Dr Rad 44:52
He’s on a horse, and he’s coming.

Dr G 44:55
And then the other thing that I tried to do was, I was like, Look, Veii and Rome have been together unhappily for a while. Now, sure, chances are scholars have looked into this.

Dr Rad 45:05
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.

Dr G 45:07
And then I was like, what would be interesting to know is something from the archeological record?

Dr Rad 45:12
Ooh,

Dr G 45:12
Because we have lots of Etruscan tombs. That’s what is most famously preserved.

Dr Rad 45:17
Absolutely.

Dr G 45:17
But there are other elements of the archeology that still exist, and even though they is very close to Rome, is kind of subsumed into greater Rome these days. There is a lot of excavation work that is happening on the Etruscans in that area, right? So one of the things that I was looking at is a piece by a scholar called Arizza and Rossi.

Dr Rad 45:17
Okay.

Dr G 45:20
And they’re looking at the territory between ve and Rome in the Archaic period.

Dr Rad 45:29
Wow.

Dr G 45:29
So that’s sort of like the sixth century down to the fourth century. So sitting right in the cusp of our zone of interest, actually. And there’s a whole bunch of tombs, which is fine, all very interesting. Some of them are very typically Etruscan. And there’s one in that they’ve been looking at that sort of stands out as being Etruscan in style, but with Roman style grave goods, interesting. So you’ve got this sort of overlapping thing starting to happen in terms of cross cultural fertilization.

Dr Rad 46:20
Would it be worthwhile telling our listeners, what does Etruscan in style mean? Because I think Etruscans have, they do have quite elaborate tombs and like we’re talking about, like rooms, aren’t we like what we might think of as semi mausolem-ish,

Dr G 46:33
Almost like buildings you could live in.

Dr Rad 46:34
Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 46:35
They’re built, sometimes square structures, sometimes circular structures. Depends on the time period, but they do look like little houses, basically. And they’re often inserted a little bit into a hillside where possible, not always, but or going down a little bit. And there is a combination of bodies that have been cremated and bodies that have been inhumed, essentially. So you could have been just buried, or you could have been cremated and put into a little cinerary urn. Yeah, the frescoes inside of these tombs are often an indication of elitism and wealth.

Dr Rad 47:13
Yeah.

Dr G 47:14
Not every tomb is so spectacular, but if you get to see some Etruscan tombs, I would recommend it, but in terms of grave goods, the thing that sort of tipped this example, so this is a tomb that’s sitting between Veii and Rome in this early period is that there was one that contained an aes rude.

Dr Rad 47:36
I have no idea what that is.

Dr G 47:38
Well, an aes rude is like a precursor to currency.

Dr Rad 47:43
Ahhh.

Dr G 47:44
So Rome doesn’t have currency yet. As far as we’re aware, even though it keeps talking about, they keep talking about how much things are, but we’re pretty sure they don’t develop currency just yet.

Dr Rad 47:54
Yeah, I agree.

Dr G 47:55
But they do have what is proto currency, right? And it’s these bronze, unstructured kind of shapes,

Dr Rad 48:04
Ooo like aes! Okay, yeah, okay, gotcha sorry.

Dr G 48:08
That’s just my pronunciation.

Dr Rad 48:09
No, no, no, I’m visualizing it now, and I get where you’re coming from. Yeah,

Dr G 48:12
They’re kind of slightly rectangular, but they’re also, they could kind of be any shape really, but they’re not a coin.

Dr Rad 48:20
Yep.

Dr G 48:20
It’s all done by weight, yes, of course. And so metal content, yeah, you slap down your bronze and you’re like, What about some of this?

Dr Rad 48:28
Yeah, somebody’s still in the Bronze Age, baby.

Dr G 48:32
Like, I’ll give you 10 sacks of grain for it. So there is a trading proto currency happening. One of these is found in one of these Etruscan tombs.

Dr Rad 48:43
Okay, okay.

Dr G 48:44
but they’re thought to be distinctly Roman-Latin in its sort of origin. The other thing that’s happening is that we’ve got defensive locations that they’ve found, yeah, which appear to be on Veii’s side of the Tiber.

Dr Rad 49:01
Ooh, okay.

Dr G 49:02
Yeah, so Rome’s on the south side of the river, Veii’s on the north side. Veii’s already in the more strategic position, if you like, because they could just hop in the river and float down following the current. Rome can’t be happy about this.

Dr Rad 49:17
Row, row, row, your boat.

Dr G 49:19
Yeah, for Rome to go up the river – mission.

Dr Rad 49:22
Yeah.

Dr G 49:22
For Veii, they’re just like, chilling out,

Dr Rad 49:24
yeah,

Dr G 49:25
On their floating device.

Dr Rad 49:26
This is why the Romans are so agitated.

Dr G 49:28
Possibly – a little bit angry. But on this north side of the Tiber, there’s a couple of spots where there’s really clear defensive locations that date from this sort of sixth to fourth century BCE. One of them’s at a place called Colle Santa Agata, which, if you’re in Rome for the Romans listening, is now where the San Filippo Neri Hospital is.

Dr Rad 49:52
Okay.

Dr G 49:53
Must be on the top of a hill.

Dr Rad 49:54
Note to self, yeah.

Dr G 49:56
And another spot called Acquafredda, which is near. The Università Europea di Roma and the so both of these are on hills. They’ve got like a defensive wall, and they’ve also got some rudimentary substructures of drainage, interesting. So there’s ditches and moats and things like, yeah, so using the hill as a bit of it’s like a hill fort situation, yeah.

Dr Rad 50:19
Okay. So basically, the archeology supports this idea that Rome and they were in conflict at around this time.

Dr G 50:28
Definitely that there is a sense in which there’s a defensive policy coming from Veii, and that is presumably in response to the offensive stuff that is coming from Rome.

Dr Rad 50:43
Always thought Rome spews out offensive stuff.

Dr G 50:45
And the other thing that we see in the archeology from this period is that there tends to be a cluster of sort of farms around the edges of the salt flats, which will ultimately become Ostia.

Dr Rad 51:01
Right.

Dr G 51:02
So they is already in control of that area, it would seem.

Dr Rad 51:05
Hoo. No wonder Rome wants to get their hands on it.

Dr G 51:07
Rome is itching.

Dr Rad 51:09
Yeah.

Dr G 51:09
Itching, they’re feeling salty.

Dr Rad 51:11
Think of all those fish you can salt with that.

Dr G 51:15
Exactly, yeah. And so lots of defensive structures in places today, known as Malagrotta and Monte Stallonara,

Dr Rad 51:25
Okay.

Dr G 51:26
Which, again, that’s for the Roman listeners.

Dr Rad 51:28
Yeah, so many of you.

Dr G 51:30
Get out your Maps. Google it.

Dr Rad 51:34
Ciao, Antonio Lara,

Dr G 51:36
So yeah, there is this sense in which Veii is doing a whole bunch of things in this point in time, and over the over those centuries, getting more defensive, and Rome probably becoming more offensive in response, or, you know.

Dr Rad 51:50
Sorry, it’s never gonna stop amusing me that you call Rome so offensive.

Dr G 51:52
So offensive.

Dr Rad 51:53
So offensive.

Dr G 51:57
And I think that’s, that’s my contribution to this episode.

Dr Rad 52:00
That’s an amazing contribution, because archeology is just so not my strong point. And also, you know, knowing where things are in Sydney is challenging enough for me. Rome is a whole other level.

Dr G 52:12
I did have to do some like, specific mapping exercises to try and figure out where things were.

Dr Rad 52:18
Yeah, anybody who knows me knows that I get lost going to places I go literally all the time. So out of the two of us, I’m glad that was you. I was just proud of myself for actually having a map this time. I was going to say that was very impressive. I know, I know. Thank you very much, Guy Bradley, fabulous, fabulous map. Anyway, well, Dr. G, I think that’s probably a good time for us to wrap up. You know what? Turns out, I lied. I think we’re going to need another episode for 401. And therefore it is time for the Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, the Partial Pick is where we assess Rome’s performance and what can they win in return?

Dr G 53:03
Can they get 50 golden eagles? Let’s find out together.

Dr Rad 53:08
Let’s find out. What’s our first category?

Dr G 53:10
Military Clout.

Dr Rad 53:12
Who That’s rough. I feel like it’s a zero.

Dr G 53:15
They lost Anxur.

Dr Rad 53:16
Can we take off points that we given them previously?

Dr G 53:19
I don’t think so. Sadly, that is a horrible way to mark. I refuse to do it. They lose Anxur. That’s a problem.

Dr Rad 53:29
That is a problem.

Dr G 53:29
They don’t support their own troops when they clearly need help, even though somebody didn’t ask for help.

Dr Rad 53:36
Yeah, such a mess. Like step up, such a mess.

Dr G 53:41
We have Romans running away from a siege.

Dr Rad 53:44
Well, I mean, if they didn’t, they were getting, yeah, they were going to get killed. Yeah, it is quite clear that that is what is going to happen.

Dr G 53:52
Yeah, problems, I think zero. I agree.

Dr Rad 53:54
Yeah. Okay, what’s our next category?

Dr G 53:57
Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 54:00
I feel like, no, there’s, there’s just no, there’s not even internal diplomacy, if there is such a thing, that there is not.

Dr G 54:05
There is not.

Dr Rad 54:06
No.

Dr G 54:06
Expansion?

Dr Rad 54:08
Definitely not. They’ve again, gone backwards.

Dr G 54:11
This is awkward.

Dr Rad 54:12
Oh my god, honestly, it does when you, when you do things like this, year by year, like episode by episode, it really makes you realize, how the hell did they ever get an empire?

Dr G 54:22
I mean, I have questions, because we’re zero of three. We’ve only got two categories. Could this be the episode where Rome gets zero?

Dr Rad 54:34
You know what? The only consolation I can give them, if that is where we’re heading, is that it’s probably a made up year anyway, like, Livy’s probably padding the narrative. I mean, like, obviously 402, existed, but whether it existed it, you know, in this way, in this way, that’s the question.

Dr G 54:51
We’ve got questions.

Dr Rad 54:52
We do.

Dr G 54:53
Virtus?

Dr Rad 54:54
Nope, no, again, it’s like the reverse of virtus.

Dr G 54:58
We’ve done a reverse Uno on virtus for this year.

Dr Rad 55:01
Yeah.

Dr G 55:02
And the citizen score?.

Dr Rad 55:05
I feel like it would be not great, I mean…

Dr G 55:07
It can’t have been great, can it? Because, I mean, first of all, you’ve got the Romans who were sick in Anxur, and they get killed just for being there.

Dr Rad 55:14
And they’ve only been there for, I actually checked it was 406, that they took Anxur, so they’ve been there for a few years, that’s it.

Dr G 55:21
Okay.

Dr Rad 55:21
Yeah, and that’s if the chronology is right, it might be, like, it might be the very next year that this happened. Who knows?

Dr G 55:27
So they’ve been sick for four years, yeah?

Dr Rad 55:31
Well, that’s why I said to you, when you were like, are they injured? I’m like, I don’t think so. It’s been a few years now.

Dr G 55:36
But okay, so there’s Romans living in Anxur at this point in time, and some of them are unwell. They don’t make it out, and they get killed.

Dr Rad 55:42
Yeah.

Dr G 55:42
All right, so that’s not great. That’s not great for citizens. And then you’ve got what I feel like has been overlooked in this patrician back and forth, ambitious, I’m I’m so good, blah, blah, blah, if he doesn’t ask for help, I’m not helping him.

Dr Rad 55:58
Yeah.

Dr G 55:58
Well, it’s plebeians out there getting killed on the battlefield.

Dr Rad 56:01
Absolutely, yeah, so I think it’s zero.

Dr G 56:01
{coughing}

Dr Rad 56:06
You’re choking, choking in your glee, my goodness. Well, there you go. It’s possible that the greatest civilization so great that men think about it every day, multiple times a day, got zero for being a total loser in 402 BCE

Dr G 56:32
Oh, well, that takes the cake.

Dr Rad 56:35
Look, I think that again, I’m gonna silver lining this situation. If this teaches us nothing else. It’s that there is a point to taking off your shoes at the airport. That’s all I take away from this.

Dr G 56:46
Yeah, well someone has to uphold security.

Dr Rad 56:48
Oh, and then, okay, wait, wait, here we go. After school special, here it goes. You need to learn to ask for help when you need it. Dr, G.

Dr G 56:56
Ooo, it’s not a sign of weakness.

Dr Rad 57:01
It is not a sign of weakness, although, in this particular case, militarily, I guess it kind of was, but, well, no, I mean, I mean, like, as in, you know, Rome wasn’t doing so hot, but they had reinforcements there. So, like, they weren’t, like, permanently weak, but yeah, certainly in terms of individuals, you know, got to step up and acknowledge I need help.

Dr G 57:23
Well, and look, and all I can say is, I hope it gets better from here, because this is a real low point for Rome.

Dr Rad 57:29
You know, look, I feel like there must have been probably another year where this happened, but I can’t think of it off top of my head. So I’m gonna go and have to check

Dr G 57:36
I was gonna say I don’t recall. But, you know, we’ve done so many episodes now that may be bound to maybe my memory is on the fritz as well.

Dr Rad 57:43
Yeah, I feel like it’s bound to happen at some point. But, yeah, it’s been a long time since we’ve had an actual zero across the board. Oh Rome.

Dr G 57:50
Goodness me.

Dr Rad 57:52
Thank god I know that 401 has some stuff in it, or this would be a very depressing All right. Dr, G, lovely. Chatting to you as always.

Dr G 58:02
Yes, a pleasure. Until next time.

Dr Rad 58:04
Can I ask? Can you help me to pack up this podcasting equip?

Dr G 58:10
I certainly can.

Dr Rad 58:11
Thank you.

Dr G 58:14
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. On behalf of Dr Rad and myself, we want to say a huge, huge thank you to all of you for enjoying Ancient Rome with us, and a special thank you to our Patreon supporters for loving the show and enabling us to do amazing things like upgrade our audio equipment. So thank you so so much and have a great day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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