The Partial Historians

Content warning for this episode: violence, sexual violence, removal of children

We sit down to chat with Genn and Jenny, the fabulous cohosts of the Ancient History Fan Girl podcast. They have recently published Women of Myth: From Deer Woman and Mami Wata to Amaterasu and Athena which examines fifty women and femme presenting figures from cultures across the globe.

While Women of Myth is the centre of this conversation, there’s no way to discuss ancient ideas about women without considering how that might reflect upon the contemporary issues that women face. This also leads into consideration of the challenges faced by women throughout history.

We wrap up with a discussion of looking beyond the ancient Greco-Roman world – the value of doing that and what that can look like in podcasting.

Special Episode – Women of Myth with Ancient History Fan Girl

In this interview, we explore some of the details of the book including

Consider these retailers:

The book cover!

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

An illustration by Sara Richard from Women of Myth of Ītzpāpālōtl, the Aztec Skeletal warrior goddess.
She appears as a crown skull with green feathered hair surrounded by flames.

Dr Rad 0:16
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:20
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a very special edition of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:00
And I’m Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:02
And Dr. G, we are joined today by two extra special guests. I know this is very exciting for us two extra special people are with us. And the mystery of way shall soon be revealed. I know what I mean, this is this is really a treat because we are joined by two members of the unofficial lady pod squad. And that is right we are joined by Jenny and Genn, who are the hosts of the extremely popular Ancient History Fan Girl podcast. And we are both fan girls of that podcast. Are we not Dr. G?

Dr G 1:39
We are so it’s like super, super exciting. It’s like ancient history girls unite.

Dr Rad 1:43
Exactly, exactly.

Jenny 1:45
The feeling is mutual.

Genn 1:46
Very mutual.

Dr Rad 1:50
It’s actually it’s actually really shocking that we have not had you on our show before this because it was many, many moons ago that we recorded Spartacus together. And I feel like it’s because we’re constantly in contact in terms of I constantly see what you guys are up to on Instagram and constantly listen to your show. And I kind of forget that we haven’t actually talked in real life for quite some time.

Jenny 2:11
It’s a parasocial relationship.

Dr Rad 2:15
It’s indicative of this sad social media world that we live in. It’s like, oh, I’m totally caught up with this person’s life.

Jenny 2:21
Yes, we are in meshed. I have I frequently have that as well.

Dr Rad 2:28
And we are having them on the show today. Because extra excitingly, they have just written a book.

Dr G 2:37
Oh, my God.

Dr Rad 2:39
That’s right. That’s right. They are now not only the cohosts of an excellent Ancient History podcast, but they are the coauthors of Women of Myth: From Deer Woman and Mami Wata to Ama – oh see, I’m going to screw this up. Amaterasu and Athena your guide to the amazing and diverse women from World Mythology.

Jenny 3:05
Yay. That’s our book. Thank you so much for having us on. This is so exciting.

Genn 3:13
Yeah, we’re so excited to be here.

Dr Rad 3:15
No problems at all. And we probably should give a bit of a shout out because not only are you guys co authored this, but you also have some amazing illustrations by Sarah is it? Is it Rashad or Richard Richard

Jenny 3:25
Richard

Dr Rad 3:25
Richard, by Sarah Richard, which really do make the stories I think come alive.

Jenny 3:31
Absolutely. And Liv Albert wrote our forward canvas that

Dr G 3:35
I know. Oh, yeah. For people who might still be unaware – and that must be so few people out there – Liv Albert is the host of “Let’s Talk About Myths, Baby”, which is an incredibly popular podcast from the unofficial lady pod squad.

Jenny 3:50
Indeed. I think it’s just official at this point.

Genn 3:55
I think so. I think I’m going to have badges made.

Dr Rad 3:58
I know, I’m like how have we missed the opportunity to have matching T shirts made I don’t know.

Jenny 4:05
We should all have a T shirt.

Dr Rad 4:07
Yeah, absolutely.

Genn 4:08
Okay. I’m on it.

Dr Rad 4:10
Done, there’s our project. Alright, so let’s get into it. Dr. G.

Dr G 4:14
Yes. So we’re very excited about this book. And I imagine that many people who listen to our podcasts are going to be excited about it as well. So I’m wondering, just to get us started, what’s the basic premise? I feel like the title gives a little bit of a hint. But I imagine there’s more to be said on this front.

Jenny 4:32
Do you want to hit that one, Genn?

Genn 4:35
Oh, I’m gonna let you start.

Jenny 4:37
I mean, the basic myth, it’s women and world mythology. It’s, it’s um, it’s about women and also, you know, feminine presenting characters figures from mythologies around the world. And that includes, we had 50 different slots. And, you know, it’s, it’s actually there are many Goddesses in the book, but it’s divided into three categories goddesses, heroines and monsters. So um, yeah, that’s basically And

Genn 5:05
And put those monsters in quotation marks, please.

Dr Rad 5:07
Yeah.

Jenny 5:08
Monsters, quote unquote. And we definitely go into what is coded monstrous in the book and talk about that a lot. So, um, so yeah, that’s that’s basically what the concept is.

Dr Rad 5:20
Excellent. Yeah, no, I must admit, I was really interested, by the way that you chose to set out your book. And I found it very, very fascinating. So you’ve got, as you say, those three categories of mighty goddesses, both heroines and formidable monsters using flesh rabbits, they’re jumping, they’re jumping all over my screen. Can you tell us how did you decide upon those categories when you were setting about writing this book?

Genn 5:45
So those categories were actually something that our publisher wanted. So it was it came down from, from the publishing gods.

Dr Rad 5:54
Yeah.

Genn 5:55
And that was, it might seem like that could be limiting. But actually, it was really fun. And it forced us to really look at who looked at how we were gonna break up the book and make sure that we had not just a whole bunch of goddesses, or not just a whole bunch of really great mortal heroines who did incredible stuff, or not just focus on some of my favorites and mythology, the monsters, because the monsters are just so fascinating and tell you so much about a culture. It’s, you know, it tells you what people are afraid of. It also tells you about how people, the things people valued the things they didn’t value. So, you know, there’s a whole book that could be made of each of those sections. So it was kind of nice to have the publishing Gods on higher say, you know, what, could you give us a little taste of each?

Jenny 6:48
Yeah, it was, I think it provided some good structure.

Dr Rad 6:52
Yeah, definitely. Well, I must admit, I was particularly interested in it because I am a teacher, as I think some people might know. And in my Year 11, course, I get to teach a unit called “Women in Greece and Rome”, which is a comparative study of that. And I will actually always have a section on female monsters from mythology, because I think it’s a great way to actually start off the unit, because, as you say, by looking at what a culture is afraid of, I think that actually tells you a huge amount about their attitudes to various things. But if you want to look at gender, for example, it gives you real insight into that.

Jenny 7:27
Oh, yeah, huge amounts.

Genn 7:30
Spoiler, it’s almost always women with sexual agency, almost always.

Jenny 7:34
Frequently, it’s not only that, there’s, there’s kind of a subcategory that’s like, you know, medical fears, we found a lot of monsters who are kind of, you know, spirits or beings that interfered with, for example, childbirth, and you know, what we might call today, sudden infant death syndrome. You know, like, if this monster attack, they attack a woman in in birthing, or they attack a baby, it’s as it’s just born. And this is a way to explain deaths that might not be easily explained otherwise, in pre modern cultures. There’s also monsters like, for example, there was one an Inuit monster that was basically like her, her. Her basically what she was, was a monster that tempted children out onto the ice. So she would like if a child wandered out onto the ice, she would grab it and take it underwater. So you know, that just speaks to a real fear about the environment and about, you know, children wandering away from their parents and winding up in dangerous situations, which I’m sure was, and still is, in a lot of places. A real danger, right. So..

Dr G 8:41
Yeah, I think that I think that’s a really important point, because one of the things that you can see a connection with here is how sexual agency sort of leads into the childbearing aspect. And then the consequences of the childbearing fall upon the mother and the child in various ways.

Jenny 8:58
Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely. Like there’s there’s all these like, kind of revolving fears around women, childbirth, child rearing that, that exists across many cultures.

Genn 9:08
And then you get it on the other end as well. You get a lot of older women characters are also monsters. I mean, famously Baba Yaga, right, the, the Slavic witch, the deep forest, whose house is on spindly chicken legs that can move around and she’s kind of a chaotic, chaotic, and all fairy tales. Sometimes she’ll do good things. Sometimes she’ll do real bad things. Sometimes she’ll put your head on one of her D posts. You also have like there’s a cannibal ogress who also takes an age children. So there’s a lot of like women who are not within the family unit who are older, maybe past childbearing years, also being dangerous, particularly if they have any kind of knowledge.

Jenny 9:50
Demonized, literally. Yeah.

Dr Rad 9:52
I feel like that’s speaking to so many things as a person who’s decided not to have children, mostly because I am massively afraid or the idea that I’m like, Yes, this resonates and also living in a culture where we’re terrified of aging and women are just like not supposed to age. I think this can definitely hit home with a lot of people in our audience.

Jenny 10:15
Yeah.

Dr G 10:18
I want to be a crone. I’m looking forward to that part of my lifestyle.

Jenny 10:22
Listen, we’re all gonna wind up on Team Cannibal Ogress eventually like we all know that.

Genn 10:30
Do we have to be cannibals though like I’m here for ogress, but do I need to be accountable?

Dr G 10:34
You can be a vegetarian if you so desire that is fine.

Jenny 10:37
You can be a vegan cannibal ogress.

Dr Rad 10:41
I’m actually I’m actually seeing our future now. You know, soon soon we’ll all be of an age where society no longer wants to look at us and has no use for us. So we may as well just buy an apartment building that’s entirely soundproof where our matching lady pod squad T shirts, and we’ll just lock ourselves up in individual spaces and record sounds like basically what I’m doing now.

Genn 11:02
Overlooking the sea please.

Jenny 11:05
Genn can have a window in hers.

Dr Rad 11:08
You can have that, old crone.

Jenny 11:10
Her teeth are long; her windows are glorious.

Dr Rad 11:16
Yeah.

Genn 11:18
How else am I gonna warn people not to approach sometimes by like putting a head in the window. Like I need to have something to warn people.

Dr Rad 11:25
Yeah. We’ll be an interesting version of the sirens. You know,

Jenny 11:28
Stop scaring the food away.

Genn 11:32
Alright, look, I’ll be able to manipulate like you have the low lighting. We’ve got a few good years. Yeah.

Dr Rad 11:38
It’s good to have a plan, you know, eventually, you know, society will cast you out.

Jenny 11:45
It’s called retirement.

Genn 11:46
There’s only so many Tik Tok filters, right. Like, we can’t make the Tik Tok filters reality yet.

Dr Rad 11:51
Yes, exactly.

Genn 11:54
Yet.

Dr G 12:00
So I’m thinking about bringing things back to the to the topic at hand. I just sort of went out on a little imagination of being like, what would it be like to live in a giant apartment complex with ladies by the sea? And I was like, I think it would be good. I’m looking forward to that. So the illustrations in this book by Sara Richard, they’re amazing. I have to say like, so evocative. And I’m really interested in your perspective. One, what was that like working together on this sort of stuff? And how do these illustrations in your view really enhance the themes that are coming out in the work?

Jenny 12:35
Oh my gosh, there’s so much to say about that. Like, there’s so much to so much like the it was very collaborative, you know, like we would – we would receive kind of line drawings Sarah and Sarah would do these like really funny line drawings and like kind of put little notes in them like skulls here and look at the little arrow you know, like more skull children hiding in the woods. Usually it was skulls though she’d there’s like skulls and stories that actively don’t have skulls, which I love. So many, I love that this as a as a fan of the cult of the severed head. I just love skulls, and so to Sara, so I think it really worked. But um, yeah, so like, she would send it in, you know, like line drawings, we would take a look and go back and forth on things and kind of collaborate on what the final result would be. And she so frequently just absolutely knocked it out of the park with very little communication, because she had her own process that was always like really in line with ours, because I think she had like really a similar kind of aesthetic to what we were thinking of, and what we were going for in the writing, you know, like, I’m not shying away from the gory details, for example.

Genn 13:46
So one of the things that, you know, we found when we were doing when we were doing the mythology, history, everything for this book is there’s one word that comes up again and again, when you when you talk about women in, in these stories, and it’s a word that I personally hate because it’s such a loaded word. And we couldn’t erase it from the book, because it’s oftentimes integral to the, to the plot, and that word is beautiful. And so one of the things that we had to contend with was, how are we going to, you know, we’ve got this wonderful collection of stories about diverse women, how are we going to show beauty in a way that isn’t just a westernized beauty standard? And you know, what, what we did with Sara was we worked really closely to be clear about how some of these women could look how, you know, they could not necessarily look Western, like you know, we have we have gender non binary characters. We have larger characters, which for me is always important. You know, I grew up in the era of Disney princesses, where they’re literally their heads or, you know, their hands are bigger than their waist. So, it was super important to me that we have have a full body diversity, full, you know, diversity of gender identity. And we didn’t just want like larger people. I also wanted to see women who are super athletic women who are, you know, slender women who look like every other woman looks. And also, you know, one of the things Sara does is you’ll see a lot of gorgeous women with, you know, very big noses or, you know, beautiful, bright eyes or, you know, the hair textures, everything she’s just so good at so that when you look at these women, they are all beautiful, and they’re not all uniform.

Jenny 15:38
They all look different. Yeah. Yeah.

Genn 15:41
Yeah, they all look great.

Dr Rad 15:43
Yeah, no, I really love to. I really love that aspect of your illustrations, the fact that you had given the thought of, as you say, not just thinking about the ethnicity in terms of skin tone, and that kind of stuff, which is obviously, still a big issue these days, sadly, as we can see, because at the time of recording, we’re recording in the midst of this Netflix fewer about the casting of Cleopatra for their Docu drama, and what she looked like. And I’m sure we all remember a few years ago, when there was debate about the casting of for Troy full of a city. And you know, the casting of people of color to play various mythological characters. So I love that aspect. But I think as you say, particularly for gender, people might not automatically think about it, but having that diversity of body type is so important.

Jenny 16:26
Absolutely. Yeah. And that was a big priority of ours. And I think Sara really knocked it out of the park there, too.

Genn 16:32
Yeah, I wanted to see women who if they were like, riding an elephant or swinging a sword could swing that sword. I was here for that. And one of the one of the one of the illustrations, that’s my favorite is the Morrigan, who is the Celtic goddess of the battlefield, she has Genn hair, which is a very fluffy braid hair. I was so excited that Sara did that. But also, she just looks terrifying. She looks like she would stalk a battlefield. With her cape made of feathers and viscera. She looks like she belongs there. And she’s got this really terrifying beauty to her. Like, I don’t think anyone would, you know, can traditionally call her the most beautiful like person, but she’s really scary. Pretty.

Jenny 17:21
Yeah.

Dr G 17:23
Yeah, that’s it. It’s just a sign, we need to expand our scope of what includes is in beauty, like those narrow standards that come through, particularly online and through like dominant cultural paradigms. And it’s like, books like this become really important because they provide that counterpoint. And you’re not just challenging culture, you’re also expanding it by doing this kind of work. So kudos to you guys.

Jenny 17:46
Absolutely. Thank you.

Genn 17:47
Thank you.

Dr Rad 17:47
And I know my students are always disappointed even though they don’t want to say it, I can see it on their faces. Because when I am when I am teaching Troy, and we start by watching the Hollywood version, then when I show them like the Bettany Hughes documentary, and they see that approximation of what how long or short, it might actually look like, given the cultural beauty standards, that their faces always kind of fall because they’re just like, oh my god, like it’s so confronting the different to like my, you know, Kim Kardashian view of what, you know what a beautiful woman looks like.

Jenny 18:28
It’s like, I feel like I’ve seen Helen of Troy depicted as blonde so often and where does that come from? I mean, why, why is she blonde? You know?

Dr Rad 18:36
Yeah,

Dr G 18:37
Like, what are the chances? It’s like, slim to none guys.

Jenny 18:39
Exactly.

Genn 18:40
Well that’s, that’s, that’s the othering, right? That’s like we see the red hair pop up all the time. Right as as a ginger, like, who has Mediterranean roots. The only reason you see that is to say this person doesn’t belong, like they’re from somewhere else.

Dr Rad 18:53
Yeah,

Jenny 18:53
The odds are very high.

Genn 18:54
There were not genders or there were not blondes. I mean, yes, I’m sure there were like, statistically, but realistically, you know, the Bettany Hughes adaptation is much closer to what it would have been, you know, you’re seeing those hair colors because it’s supposed to be a divine sort of thing to this person, as opposed to an actual reality of what they would have looked like. Sorry.

Dr Rad 19:13
Yeah. 100% 100%.

Genn 19:15
Sorry, gingers out there.

Dr G 19:18
Before we move on from illustrations, I just have to say that the one that really stood out to me was I’m going to try to pronounce the name and hope I get it right. Ītz-pāpā-lōtl, the skeletal warrior goddess.

Jenny 19:31
Yeah, Ītzpāpālōtl.

Dr G 19:34
Yeah. The warrior goddess of the Aztecs, who also has this skeletal aspect about her. Just amazing.

Jenny 19:41
So she was one of my absolute favorites. So if you ask me, you know who’s my favorite. There are like dozens of them that I could say but she’s one that really stood out to me. And we discovered her like one of the she was one of the first ones that I found that was kind of outside of the scope of what I already knew. And I was just so excited about her. She’s a skeletal warrior goddess of the Aztecs. She has butterfly wings lined with obsidian knives and her mythology includes you know, sleeping with a man and then ripping out his heart and eating it, which is pretty awesome.

Dr G 20:12
I mean all round she sounds like the kind of woman I’d want to hang out with.

Jenny 20:15
Hardcore.

Genn 20:18
She has some great stories to tell you over and over like a nice bottle of like, white zinfandel. Yeah, like how did we get to this part where we had to rip the guy apart?

Dr G 20:27
Tell me how we got there.

Jenny 20:28
I mean, I think it’s not a white zinfandel. Kind of. I think she drinks blood red wine.

Genn 20:34
All right. Well, listen, I don’t – she would make an exception for me. She just put some hearts in hers. It’d be fine.

Jenny 20:40
I don’t think she’s a “hearts in the wine” kind of gal. That’s just you know, blood clots in the wine, sure. Hearts in the wine. Literal hearts perhaps?

Genn 20:50
That’s what I meant literal heart.

Jenny 20:52
Oh, I thought you meant like little gummy hearts.

Genn 20:54
No.

Jenny 20:58
Okay, I could see why zinfandel or red zinfandel with with literal hearts in it that she would she would probably drink that. Yeah.

Dr Rad 21:06
Tasty.

Jenny 21:07
She works. Like our whole cannibal plan I think she would fit in.

Dr Rad 21:13
So, I really intrigued because Dr. G and I have also just written a book together, it seems really weird that you know, you guys were publishing your book, publishing our book, and we’re like, Oh, my God, we know a little bit about like, what it’s like to try and write a book, you know, together, not just on your own, you know, locked in your own thoughts and that sort of thing. Tell us what are the biggest challenges that you encountered when you were writing this book?

Jenny 21:37
Um, I don’t know. Like, I feel like for me, the most challenging parts were because there there were, I know, Jenna’s gonna have a different answer to this. But for me, the the challenging parts were writing about, you know, women in cultures and mythologies and stories that I wasn’t already familiar with, because I’m pretty familiar with certain aspects of, you know, Greek and Roman culture and Celtic mythology and things because we had covered that in the podcast. But we were expanding a whole lot beyond what we had already covered. So I always wanted to approach those topics, like really well, and with the same, you know, thoroughness of research that I did for stuff I had done, you know, a two and a half hour, like, episode series on or something. So, I felt like that, you know, like, I felt a little stressed about it, sometimes I was just like, I want to make sure I get this right, I want to make sure I’m not just, you know, applying a Western lens, or equating something to things that I had already heard about that it actually has nothing to do with, you know. So I was really careful in that and thinking about that a lot. So I would say that, for me, that was the most challenging part. But it was also really fun, because I got to just get outside of my comfort zone and learn about things that I had not known about before. And that’s really the fun part for me. So.

Genn 22:53
So everything Jenny said is also how I felt I also, one of the things just to add to this, before I go on to what I found really, equally difficult. One of the things were really careful about was because these weren’t, were non western cultures and cultures that we were experiencing for the first time, we really wanted to try to find sources, telling the mythology in sort of from that culture, absolutely important to us that we make sure that you know, we looked at sort of, you know, we looked at the starting point, which is a collection or wherever you would find it in English, a lot of times, we also you know, we are, we are a bit you know, handy, we know we are a bit limited as we only speak English and read English, I read a tiny bit of Latin, Jenny can read and write a little bit of French, but with the with the the exception of that we are not fluent in any other languages. So, you know, we can’t read something in Mandarin. And that does limit the opportunities you have when you’re looking into other cultures. So we were really careful to make sure that where possible, we found sources that were outside of Western cultures and use them to tell these stories of these women. The thing that and that was tricky. But the other thing that I found really scary and anxiety inducing was I tended to cover some of the really big characters from Western and non western cultures like I covered. I wrote the entry, Mulan and Athena and Medusa. And these are all stories that are so ingrained in Western culture and other cultures. Like we have certain images of what we’re expecting. And I found like, Well, what do I have to say that’s new? That’s also true to the story and how do I continue to make that engaging and not just be the same thing you’ve read before? I found that really intimidating. I think we got there in the end.

Jenny 24:51
I think so. Yeah. I hope so.

Genn 24:55
I don’t know about you got a you both but like, I found writing this book with Jenny. We each took different entries that we edited the other person’s entries. But from having the podcast for so long, I didn’t find it like our voices I think meld really well, in the writing of the book, like, I don’t think it seemed like two different people wrote stuff. And I don’t know if you had a similar experience, because like, I kind of felt like it was easy to keep our tone and our voice really consistent. So it felt like one unified project, like what was it like for you?

Dr G 25:25
Oh, that’s a good question. I feel we did a similar thing in terms of like dividing up who would take which chapter and then co editing and, and reversing that and things like that. And I think part of the beauty for us is that we do have two distinct voices, we share a sense of humor. But you would I think, for the astute listener of our podcast, they’d be able, they’d be able to identify who wrote which chapter as well. And it might not necessarily be the case for somebody who hadn’t encountered our work before, because we do have really similar touch points. But it’s really interesting to me, because Fiona has all of these sort of popular cultural references, that I don’t get. And then what I think are popular cultural references are still historical, so. And that was something that I was like, Oh, this doesn’t come up so much when we’re chatting with each other. But it was really distinctly clear in the writing. And I was like, oh, that’s fascinating to me. So it was like, I felt like we got to know each other a little bit better through the process, even though we know each other so well.

Dr Rad 26:26
I agree. I agree. When I was editing Dr G’s chapters, I always break out to a cold sweat whenever I read anything that she’s written, because I’m like, she’s just so effortlessly, effortlessly academic. Like, I can only I can only aspire to have this kind of tone to my work. And then I start rethinking everything I’ve ever written. But yeah,

Genn 26:51
I frequently feel that way as well.

Dr Rad 26:54
But yeah, but you, but you have to just have Yeah, I have. The good thing is I know that if she’s the one editing my work, I’m like, I feel at ease. Because if she can write this way, and she can edit my work, I know she’ll tell me if I’m being an idiot.

Dr G 27:09
I can’t confirm she is not.

Dr Rad 27:15
But yeah, no, it was it was I agree that I think for someone who doesn’t know us, if they probably just be like, oh, yeah, this kind of reflects the podcast. But for people who know us, well, people who listen to the podcast, I think they would be able to tell which chapter was written by which person and it is mostly because I can’t restrain myself. The publisher actually forced me to cut massively back on the pop culture references saying that I wasn’t, I wasn’t dating the book to some of them.

Dr G 27:41
I had to put footnotes in for my chapters, because he was like, Is that a thing? And I was like, that’s a thing. And I’m not cool. But you’re even more uncool than me. So I’m not going to delete it. I’ll put a footnote in for you and others of your ilk.

Jenny 27:56
Yeah, we included pop culture references when we could find them as well, because not all of the figures and characters that we found had like extensive pop culture references, but there were some who were kind of emerging and and were appearing in more like kind of manga and video games and more modern pop culture. And it was cool to kind of track that down a little bit. Yeah, definitely.

Dr G 28:20
And I think that’s useful as well for people who are approaching these sorts of stories because they like they do have a whole wealth of reception as well. So, you know, anything that might be a touchstone for somebody, I think is useful for bringing them in further into that knowledge. And anything that they come across that they haven’t encountered, but the story appeals to them, they’ve got an avenue to pursue to explore it further.

Jenny 28:41
So absolutely, yeah. For example, like Ītzpāpālōtl has, I think she’s inspired at least one monster in a horror film, the name of which escapes me and she’s also inspired, I think, a Disney plus cartoon character from there. And I also the name escapes me as well. But I know that she’s appearing in pop culture recently. And it’s really fun to it’s really fun to see that and track it down.

Dr G 29:06
Yeah, so thinking about you’ve covered 50 women and this is like, like a huge range. Is there any standouts? Oh, the question that we’ve written down is like, who ended up being your favorite and I’m always a little bit I always back away a little bit when people ask me favorite questions because I really dislike having to place one thing on a pedestal so I appreciate that you might not want to go there. But if so one sort of stand out for you that that may be struck you along the way that hit you differently from what you thought it would or surprised you in some way.

Jenny 29:41
Genn, you want to go first on that?

Genn 29:43
No, I’m gonna let you go first because I love hearing you tell this story and I know what you’re gonna say.

Jenny 29:47
Yeah, I always say the same one. And I always preface this by saying that they’re they were all my favorite like having done this book. I was always just super excited about whichever one I was covering and I would be texting Genn these little details and if you asked me what my favorite was that week, it would be whatever when I was working on that week, so I really did fall in love with all of them genuinely. And they’re all They’re all my favorite, I feel very strongly about all the ones that I covered even all the ones that Genn covered because I also helped her edit her entries, and she helped edit mine. So it was really kind of a joint project in that way.

Genn 30:21
And then we recorded the audiobook. So then we, we didn’t record necessarily our entries, we recorded each other sometimes based on the flow of the book. So they do really all feel like they are ours, you know, absolutely.

Jenny 30:35
But I would say that one that has stuck with me that I really just kind of love fell in love with and and felt like I maybe identified with or, you know, just just really loved was this goddess named Oya, who is she is like an Eastern African and also African diaspora goddess who I think she may have like, she’s like a goddess at the Niger River. Originally, she’s a water gout goddess, but also a goddess of like lightning and whirl winds and wind. And she’s a warrior goddess, but she’s also a goddess of commerce. And she has so many disparate aspects to her. But one of the things about her that I just really loved is that she I think her name means if I’m getting this right, I might be messing this up. But I think her name means the “tearer”, as in the t e a r e r, the “tearer”. And part of her one of her aspects is that she is a goddess of like, the destructive force that comes before transformative change. So she would like, you know, kind of rip into your life like, like a strong wind and just rip everything up by the roots. And you have to start again. And I found that to be like a really interesting and important message to me, because I know that I see this in a lot of my female friends specifically. And also I have done this extensively in my own life. Just holding on to a situation that is not good for me, because I had hoped that it would change, you know, and that has been, I’ve done this in several different relationships. I’ve done this with jobs, I’ve done this with, you know, goals that I had, that no longer worked for me, like just holding on to something so hard, when what I really needed was some of that oil energy, just sweeping in there turning everything upside down and shaking it and just letting me start unburden myself and start over again. And I think you know, many of us can do with a little bit more of that energy. So, so I just, I just love her. And I really appreciate that I got to learn about her in this project.

Dr G 32:38
Oh, thank you for sharing.

Genn 32:41
Super uncontroversial. But like she’s also my favorite that I was super surprised by like, I’m very basic. Like I usually say my favorites Atlanta, because when I was 10 years old, finally able to read on my own, I had a long process to reading. I read this book of Greek myth, and there she was, you know, Atlanta, took no shit did what she wanted to do. Wasn’t going to marry anyone who wasn’t her equal. But I knew going in that that was the standard of what I was looking for. Right? When I was looking at these women’s stories, and a lot of the women whose stories we tell our warriors, but some are moms, some are children, some are goddesses of of tearing things up and starting over. But the one who really surprised me the most is also Oh, yeah. Because I don’t know. Like, they just as Jenny describes it every time every time I get to hear her say it. I’m like, Yeah, we all need more of that in our life. You know, like, we just let go or be dragged and I was like, okay.

Dr G 33:40
Yeah, don’t get stagnated, change is on its way.

Jenny 33:43
Don’t get stagnated. Exactly.

Dr Rad 33:46
Yeah, that definitely resonates. Because I think that we we do tend to be scared of change, and we kind of enjoy the comfort, even if bad situation is just that familiarity.

Jenny 33:56
Exactly. And like how it takes so much courage to change your situation, you know, in so many in so many ways. And so like having, like, I kind of see her as embodying that courage, you know?

Dr Rad 34:09
Yeah, absolutely. So this one might be a little bit easier to answer because we’re not asking you to rank your your women. But we were interested to hear because so many of these stories were actually unfamiliar to us because those were also sort of starting from a place of being more familiar with Greco-Roman traditions. But which woman in myth is you find had the most complex back story in your view?

Jenny 34:34
Oh, that’s a good one. Um, do you want to go first, Genn? Do you want me to go first?

Genn 34:40
Um, you go first because I’m thinking

Jenny 34:43
Okay,

Genn 34:44
That’s my like far away thinking face.

Jenny 34:50
Well done, Genn. Yeah. I would say for me, there’s this character. It’s actually two characters in one Amba and Shikhandi from the Mahabharata in India. The ancient Indian epic. And I this is one of the trans characters that I just completely fell in love with trans or you know non binary perhaps it’s a little bit hard to tell it depends on the source. But this character, I think, if I recall, right, I don’t exactly remember the order, but I saved them for either last or very close to last because I felt that it was a very complex topic to handle. And I wanted to really make sure that I did it right. And some of the complexity of it was talking about Shikhandi’s gender. So this is a story about reincarnation, basically. And it starts off with this woman, a cisgender woman named Amba, who is in love with this man and gets kidnapped by another man and basically has her life ruined by by this guy who kidnaps her because her original boyfriend or you know, lover wouldn’t marry her after she had been kidnapped, and then the guy who did the kidnapping wouldn’t marry her, because I guess he had a vow of some kind. And, you know, just kind of he just sort of casually destroyed this woman’s life. So she really just wanted to get revenge. But this was a renowned warrior, and nobody would side with her and help her get revenge on him. So she prayed about it in the forest, and one of the gods came to her and said that she would be able to successfully get revenge, but only in another lifetime. So she immediately built herself a funeral pyre and jumped into it so that she could hasten her own reincarnation. And eventually, depending on the sources, she may have gone through a number of lives before eventually being reborn as this character, Shikhandi, who their their gender is, either you could look at them as a transgender man or a transgender woman, or perhaps a non binary person, or perhaps a sis woman who just really doesn’t conform to expectations of cisgender women in that time, you know, like that. It’s very complicated, writing about it. But I really enjoyed learning about Shikhandi, and learning about, you know, gender, as told and described in this epic, and also like more modern depictions of Shikhandi and how their gender has been depicted throughout the years. And eventually, like, the cool thing about Shikhandi is that they become eventually the charioteer of this other really renowned warrior in the current shutter of war, which is featured in the Mahabharata. And they wind up just finding this this original person who had ruined his life and riddling them with arrows and taking epic revenge. And it’s just such a really great harrowing and gripping tale. And that just happens to involve a gender queer character from 1000s of years ago. And I really enjoyed that. And I found it, you know, a complex and challenging topic to cover. And for me, because I just wanted to make sure I was getting it right, but also just really, really fun to learn about.

Genn 37:52
Yeah, so mine is a little more recent, La Llorona, who is the Mexican wailing woman of mythology is super fascinating. And her history is so deeply rooted in the colonization of the of Mexico. And us, you know, her story stretches back to when, when Mexico was colonized by the by the Spanish, she started out her life as a, an Indigenous woman who is has a love affair with a Spanish guy. And at this particular point in time, this was very common. And a lot of Indigenous women had these, they were sort of like second spouse, spouses or relationships with these Spanish, Spanish men. And so what happens is this guy who has been professing his love for her, they have two children together, all of a sudden is like, hey, so I have to marry this other woman. And in addition to that, I’m going to take our kids because I think that it would be better for me to raise them and like, you can totally visit them and stuff, but I’m done with you. And so the, you know, the choice that is left to this woman, you know, is is not great. She out of grief and despair, drowns her children and usually kills herself. She’s usually found by a body of water. And a lot of her history is, you know, then she comes back and is sort of a, you know, a spectral spirit who, you know, takes children or, you know, will will drown you in the water. But all of that is so deeply tied to colonization and how women were treated. Like it was very common that comedy and Spanish conquerors would be conquerors. You know, Spanish colonizers would have affairs with Indigenous women and then take their children from them, because they didn’t believe that they were able to raise their own children. And the treatment of women was absolutely appalling and indigenous people in general and one of the other things about this mythology that Jenny helped me understand, because I didn’t know this, is that some of that folklore which now it has, like, its own sort of operas and its own sort of like place in the Day of the Dead celebrations, but some of it goes all the way back to the Aztec conquest. I’m gonna let you talk about that, Jenny, because you know it a lot more clearly than I do, even though I wrote the entry.

Jenny 40:21
Yeah.

Genn 40:22
I always confuse it.

Jenny 40:23
Well, I mean, I think just that that part of it is that there were Aztec goddesses that may have that that law, Your Honor, may have also had her roots in like, goddesses that involve child sacrifice in some way, or goddesses that were tied to water in some way. Some of this comes, like was written about in, you know, codices that record people who had lived through the siege of Tenochtitlan, for example, like accounts of, you know, signs importance of, of this siege, and some of them involved, you know, wailing women, for example, showing up at the streets of Tenochtitlan the night before, and wailing about their children, you know, dying or being in harm’s way. Some of this is less than trustworthy, because it comes from through a Spanish lends there were all these, you know, Spanish priests running around at a certain time, you know, in the decades after the conquest, interviewing Indigenous survivors of the of these events and writing these things down, but it was the priests writing them down. So how, and this also goes for some of the mythology around Ītzpāpālōtl too and we talk about that in her entry. how trustworthy that some of this stuff is, is a little bit up for interpretation, you know, and, like, questionable, but there, there is some, some documentation of that. So it’s possible that there that there were goddesses that, that lie, you’re gonna call us back to that have indigenous roots as well.

Genn 41:52
Yeah, as a foretelling of this doom, right?

Jenny 41:55
Yeah, like a doom foretelling. And that has to do with, you know, either death of children and death in the water, you know?

Dr G 42:03
Yeah, I look, I think you see those similar parallels coming through in like the tale of Medea, for instance. And it’s like, you know, this story of conquest, and people coming in and taking ownership of a place or assuming that somehow they, they, it’s theirs now, and what are the fallout consequences of that, and there is a long, long history of that kind of colonial violence. And it’s really good to see these stories coming through, because it emphasizes just how common it is, and also puts us situates us in the fight to going forward? Like, how do we do the processes that undo some of the problematic consequences of this kind of history as well? Like, how do we do it well, and I feel like there’s a long way to go. But I think there’s inherent value in the, in sharing these kinds of stories, just to reiterate just how common this kind of violence is, and also situating us in a in a position of action, what to do next.

Genn 43:00
And also, like, you know, one of the things you see is that it’s very much this mythology in particular is a psychic scar that you have on people who after, you know, after the horrors of colonization, they don’t there’s a lot of things we don’t have anymore as a result, but this story comes through, and it is one of those things that remains with us. And, you know, should be a way of telling us like, you know, this, the there’s just so much there that I’m not I’m not making any sense at the moment. It’s just it is like a psychic scar that does come through in the folklore that is, is there to, you know, continually remind us of the horrors of colonization?

Jenny 43:37
Yeah, like how these women were treated. And you know, how basically how the Spanish colonizers treated Indigenous women that they had relationships with?

Dr Rad 43:47
Definitely no, like, I think that that actually is a really good place to start to wrap up, because one of the things I was very impressed by when I looked inside instead of reading my copy of your book is that you guys were very restrained in that, even though I think when you probably started your podcast, you were focusing more on sort of Greco Roman world topics. And I’ve seen with your episodes that I’ve been listening to that you’ve gradually move beyond the sort of Greco Roman world and certainly in this book, I was very impressed that you were very restrained in the in the use of Greco Roman mythology, because I mean, you really could, you could easily populate, you know, 50 women from Greco Roman mythology if you wanted to in a book like this, but I was I was really blown away by the array of cultures that were on display. Is that something that you were exploring the podcast, and that sort of gave you the idea for the book or did the book kind of inform where you’ve taken the podcast?

Jenny 44:44
I think that Jen and I had both really wanted to move beyond Greco Roman stuff for a long time. I mean, our podcast is called Ancient History Fan Girl, not just Ancient Greco Roman History Fan Girl and yet for our first you know, couple years, we really stayed in that realm because and I think that it wasn’t something we did as a conscious decision, we just kept falling down these rabbit holes and like, the more we learned, the more we wanted, we found things we wanted to cover. And the more we got confident in this one area, and we get excited about things, and, you know, it was just really hard to wrench ourselves away. And we had, we realized, like, we had to make this conscious decision to do that. And we had been talking about how we were going to do it for a while when the opportunity to write this book came about. So it felt like a natural extension of expanding our horizons in that way, you know, but we had planned to do that already on the podcast, and we would have done it whether the book had happened or not. But I’m really glad we did it, because I think it gave us both, you know, kind of more of a, like, more of a global view on history as well as mythology because we talked about history, and how how the history and the mythology kind of meld in a lot of the entries that we did anyway. So

Genn 45:53
Yeah, everything that Jenny said, I think our podcast, because I have a deep and abiding love of Greco Roman mythology, sometimes stays in Greece in Rome a little too long. Not that Jenny doesn’t also but like that’s, that feels like my home to me. But one of the great things about this book is it forced us outside of that. And we had always planned to do that. And I think it really, it really broaden our horizons. And it sort of gave us a lot of confidence to be able to continue doing it. I also know that we did a season a couple of couple of seasons ago about gender in the ancient world. And when we finished that season, I was like Jenny, I am now broken. I need to leave Greece and Rome for a little bit of time. What can we do to get out of Greece and Rome? Because like,

Jenny 46:39
Yeah, we were both feeling a little bit like we just needed a scene shift, you know? So

Genn 46:46
Just watching the patriarchy be built. You’re like, yeah, no, I got it. What can we do that’s gonna just bring joy back to my life.

Jenny 46:52
And then we decided to cover ancient mysteries, which was basically like a lot of natural disasters and skeletons where they shouldn’t be so I don’t know how light that was?

Genn 47:06
Well, I think one of the things we did in the ancient mystery series that I’m incredibly proud of, I say it every time we talk about it is our first episode in that series is about the dating of the Sphinx, how old is this things? And we spent a lot of time in that series really digging into stuff that were actual mysteries, and then also stuff that maybe some TV channel or streaming service would like you to believe are mysteries for ancient alien reasons that aren’t. And I think it’s really easy for people who are sort of who follow things on those places to think like, Oh, I found this mystery because aliens built it or whatever, and not unpack the actual reality of the good work that archaeologists and historians and scientists and its ographers are doing to show you real mysteries and ask questions that aren’t about of colonization. Yeah, well, they are about colonization, but aren’t about you know, white washing other people’s history? Because,

Dr Rad 48:04
Yeah, that’s my biggest thing. I absolutely cannot stand it when my students come in and go, didn’t aliens build the pyramids and I’m like, shut your mouth right now. That is racist propaganda, whether you realize it or not.

Yeah.

Genn 48:18
We started with that episode. Jenny did such an amazing job of it of showing you how you can watch a documentary and you can listen to that very smart sounding documentary, and start going down this rabbit hole of, “Wait a minute aliens built this?”. Wait a minute, during a minute, have I just fallen down a racist rabbit hole? What happened? Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s kind of like when we started doing ancient mysteries, like, you can look at something like Göbekli Tepe, or, you know, different different, like, you know, monuments around the world. And if you recall, peyote makan is absolutely one of these Cahokia is one of these where you look at that, like, there, there are obviously extremely legitimate and fascinating mysteries around around these monuments, but there’s also, you know, kind of all this pseudo historical stuff built up around it. And we didn’t realize the extent to which we’d have to pick through that in that season. So the there’s an app, the first episode we dropped was the Sphinx 10,000 years old. And it’s kind of just talking about like, starting starting with like, how easy it is to if you are a lay person like Jen and me and you you are not like a scholar yourself in this stuff. And you’re just like, well, I don’t know, this guy has a PhD in the front of his name and he’s in all the same journals as the other guys. And so why is why is this illegitimate? You know, how would you know and you know, talking about how, how easy it is to to be sort of drawn in by that and then where you wind up is basically, the people who actually built this thing didn’t build these things. Maybe it was white people who are also from Atlantis. From Atlantis, racist Atlanta and also originally from Mars, and for some reason, all the Martians are white. Go Go big here. You know?

Dr G 50:01
It would explain a lot though, let’s face it, yeah, if the aliens were white.

Jenny 50:06
God. I mean,

Dr Rad 50:09
I think it’s also this very seductive idea that we have about humankind in that we have this idea that our story is one of progress that people 1000s of years ago couldn’t have done something super advanced because it was 1000s of years ago, and we must be smarter and you know, have come such a long way from then, that they can’t possibly have done these things, because that doesn’t make any sense. You know, like, we have to have this chronology and it’s like, no, they have the same capacity as us to reason to think to create, and because they’re from a different time and a different culture. Maybe they come up with different ideas and different solutions to problems. But yeah, humans are capable of pretty much the same thing. If they’re of the, you know, the same type of, you know, of humankind.

Jenny 50:59
Absolutely.

Genn 51:00
Yeah like the fact that we had flushing toilets in Skara Brae, which is a tiny little island village on the sort of falling into the sea on a Scottish island called, I don’t know if it’s on Stromness. Or if it’s up in the Orkneys. They have flushing toilets.

Jenny 51:16
Yeah.

Dr Rad 51:17
And I think that’s a great place to finish up. Because realistically, we can finish up by saying that by talking to Ancient History Fan Girl –

Genn 51:24
I should say it’s a it’s a new I should say it’s a Neolithic settlement. So like super super, super old.

Dr Rad 51:30
Yeah, no, definitely. No, I think I think it shows us that you know, all throughout our history humans have been like, what to do with shit. What to do with it?

Genn 51:37
Oh!

Dr Rad 51:39
We don’t like it.

Dr G 51:41
Where am I gonna put it, guys? I made some more.

Dr Rad 51:48
And so on that very sophisticated note, we’re going to wrap up this absolutely wonderful conversation with the fabulous co hosts of Ancient History Fan Girl – if you haven’t listened to it, and I can’t imagine that you haven’t. Please go and check it out. I’m going to a pass over to Genn and Jenny so they can tell you all about where to find them and also how to purchase this amazing book of theirs.

Jenny 52:09
Thank you so much. Our podcast is Ancient History Fan Girl. You can find us at Ancient His Fan on Twitter at Ancient History Fan Girl on Facebook and Instagram. We’re not really we’re on at oh, what’s our Tiktok name?

Genn 52:24
Ancient History Fan Girl.

Jenny 52:25
There we go. We’re also on TikTok.

Genn 52:27
Keep that brand consistent when they give me characters.

Jenny 52:29
Heck yes, you can find us on Tik Tok. And, yeah, our book “Women of Myth” is available basically wherever books are sold. If your indie bookstore doesn’t happen to have it, ask them to order it, I suppose. Is that how it works? I think so.

Genn 52:48
Yeah. And ask your library libraries are great. They’re free. Ask your library to order it in. They should be able to

Jenny 52:54
Interlibrary loan.

Genn 52:57
Exactly. It’s also available on audiobook we read it. Yeah. And as an ebook.

Jenny 53:03
You get to hear the dulcet tones of our voices.

Genn 53:07
We encourage physical copies because Sara’s illustrations are just incredible.

Dr Rad 53:12
Yeah, very vibrant. I can’t tell you how much we’ve enjoyed chatting to you today. And the thing that’s really put it over the top of me is that there’s actually been a pod cat in the background. I’ve just seen paws appearing at random times.

Dr G 53:27
Having a great little stretch. It’s been a wonderful show of, you know, napping and relaxation in the background.

Jenny 53:35
That’s exactly it. You know what’s so funny about that too, is that when we did our Spartacus episode one of your cats I don’t know which one it was was nuzzling up to the microphone and murmuring little cat sounds into it. And we kept it in there.

Dr G 53:50
I feel like that would have been Hamish.

Dr Rad 53:52
Yeah, I have. I have a cat that is deaf like me. And he does not respect boundaries.

Jenny 54:00
Fair and who would want him to I mean he’s a cat.

Dr Rad 54:06
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We won’t leave it so long in between episodes next time I think.

Jenny 54:12
Absolutely.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Women of Myth with Ancient History Fan Girl appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Another decade is gone and it’s time for a Partial Recap! We run through what the ancient sources tell us about this decade. There are some real highs and lows!

The Partial Recap 420s BCE

If you are keen to for some more detail, you can jump into our narrative episodes at 134 – A Dry Period.

A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.

Our music was composed by the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad:

Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 420s BCE!

Dr G: I’m Dr G 

Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad

Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 420s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 429 to 420 in an epitome of our normal episodes. 

Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.  

Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino. 

429 BCE

428 BCE

427 BCE

426 BCE

425 BCE

424 BCE

423 BCE

422 BCE

421 BCE

420 BCE

Dr Rad: And that was the 420s in Ancient Rome… or was it? 

Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 134: A Dry Period  to join us for a deep dive into the 420s BCE. 

Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!

The post The Partial Recap – 420s BCE appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The Partial Historians are back in the 420s BCE and we are wrapping up the decade with some first-class DRAMA! At the centre of it all are the trials of Sempronius and Postumia. The only question is, can you handle it?

Episode 139 – The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia

The year began with some classic conflict between the patricians and the plebeians. The tribunes of the plebs were FURIOUS when their relatives did not get elected as quaestors. There was only one possible explanation – election fraud!

There was clearly one man to blame: Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. He had been in charge of overseeing the elections and he had rigged the results. Unfortunately, he was also a military tribune and therefore immune from prosecution. But that didn’t mean that his relatives were…

The tribunes set their sights on Atratinus’ cousin, Gaius Sempronius. Sempronius was the perfect target. He had been in charge of a DISASTROUS military campaign in 423 BCE. Time for vengeance!

Jean Lemaire c. 1645-1655. Roman Senators and Legates.
The picture shows senators walking though a square attended by lictors. Maybe they’re on their way to a trial!

Sempronius was not the only person to find themselves on trial in 420 BCE. A Vestal Virgin named Postumia was accused of incestum. Apparently, her clothing was a bit too sexy, and she had a sense of humour. What a horrible combination! Think of the children!

However, incestum was a very serious charge as it put the Romans’ relationship with the gods in jeopardy. It was no joke for Postumia either. Charges like this could lead to live burial for a Vestal.

Tune in to find out whether Sempronius and Postumia manage to emerge victorious from their respective trials.

A modern imagining of Vestal Virgin by sculptor Joseph-Charles Marin 1791-95.
Courtesy of Mary Harrsch on Flickr.

Need a recap on Sempronius? Check out our previous episodes on 423 BCE and 422-21 BCE.

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman

Sound effects thanks to Pixabay, Fesliyan Studios and BBC Sounds.

A statue of a Vestal Virgin in the atrium Vestae (house of the Vestals) in Rome.
Courtesy of Carole Raddato via Wikimedia Commons.

An automated transcript of this episode has been provided thank to Otter AI.

Dr Rad  00:16

Welcome to the partial historians,

Dr G  00:20

we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad  00:23

Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G  00:34

And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad  00:43

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G  01:06

Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad  01:16

And I am Dr. Red and I’m in a very special t shirt today. Dr. G. My All, roads lead to Rome t shirt.

Dr G  01:26

Are you hoping to sneak into my suitcase to come on a certain trip?

Dr Rad  01:30

I’m just dropping subtle hints.

Dr G  01:34

If I can fit you, I’ll take you.

Dr Rad  01:36

Excellent. Excellent.

Dr G  01:37

So we have been tracing the history of Rome from the foundation, the traditional foundation date of 753 BCE. And in our last episode, I think if I remember rightly, we were dealing with 422 BCE, (and 421) and 421. So yeah, go we covered a lot of ground, because I remember the four horsemen being very-  they were stand out for me. So this means that we’re going to be talking about we’re starting at 420. So real shame that we didn’t record this in April.

Dr Rad  02:15

Yes, yes, that’s absolutely right. We are recording about 420 today. So to briefly recap, 422 and 421, which is our previous episode, we’re interested in good ol conflicts of the orders. Dr. G.

Dr G  02:30

Oh, yes. Well, I love a good conflict of the orders. hasn’t this been going on for centuries now?

Dr Rad  02:36

Not quite centuries, almost a century I think. Only there were nearly there. We still got, you know, a couple of centuries to go. It’ll fly by the flyway. We won’t, we won’t be dead at all. By the time we finish.

Dr G  02:51

Everything seemed to swill around the situation with Sempronius, one of the guys that’s been sent out with some troops, and he’s done seemingly a poor job. And he’s then been taken on to trial for being such a bad general. And all of his, all of his lower down cavalry commanders have come to his aid being like, this guy was great. And he did the best he could in a tough situation.

Dr Rad  03:16

Yeah, absolutely. So we do have the situation with Sempronius, which is fallout from seemingly a not great military encounter that Rome had with the Volscians in 423 Sempronius, the unfortunate and perhaps incompetent leader of said military effort, and we’re dealing with the fallout of that. And definitely we saw that some of his men came to his assistance when it looked like he was going to be in danger of being prosecuted or something like that. And then we had even more conflict of the orders. I mean, that wasn’t really conflict for the orders, except that it was interesting that it was this fight happening with Tribune’s of the plebs who were our four horsemen, and they’d been involved in the battle in the previous year. And then Sempronius, who was a patrician, we then got more explicitly into the conflict of the orders in the following year, where we had this debate about could a plebeian become a quaestor? And we had so many interreges, they were coming out of our ears, Dr. G.

Dr G  04:18

And it’s been a really weird time. Rome is definitely trying to figure itself out politically, militarily. It’s been a rough ride.

Dr Rad  04:27

Yeah, it really has. But there was the resolution was they ended up coming full circle. And going back to the compromise that was put forward, right at the beginning of this debate, which was that you can have a plebeian quaestor. Sure, as in they can run for election, but Will anybody vote for them? Time will tell Dr. G.

Dr G  04:49

Are they gonna be able to put together a sophisticated and well funded campaign? Doubtful. No.

Dr Rad  04:55

All right, we’ll see yeah that’s really all we need to know about 421 So let’s go into 420 V c

Dr G  05:30

so 420 BCE for key listeners who enjoy the smoking of the green leaf now is your time to light up because this is happening all year. We have military tribunes with consular power and many of them I might add our first cab off the rank is Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus a family we know well, yes, the lineage is continuing. And he’s had a couple of positions ahead of this one so we’ve seen this guy before. He is not a surprise. Now. We also have Lucius Furius Medullinus, also previously has appeared and most recently served together with Cincinnatus as another military Tribune in 425. Yeah, so they’ve been buddies before and here they are, again, five years later.

Dr Rad  06:33

Lovely. It’s cute. Yeah,

Dr G  06:36

We also have Marcus Manlius Vulso, a man for which I don’t have any more detail than his name.

Dr Rad  06:43

No, that is that’s an unusual name that level so isn’t it?

Dr G  06:48

Yeah, I’m not sure it is. I’ve heard before Yeah. Well, so it’s not standing out for me one way or the other. We might have encountered one in the past but I’m not sure.

Dr Rad  06:56

Yeah, the Manlius I recognise.

Dr G  06:59

The Manlius gens, they’re doing well for them. Yeah, very manly all the way down their line. Yeah. And then Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. Also, previously a consul in 428. And also apparently a military tribune in the same year.

Dr Rad  07:18

Excellent. So getting the gang back together.

Dr G  07:21

Yay. So there are military Tribune’s and then I also have some tribune of the plebs as well. Oh, we have Aulus Antistius, potentially a relation of Tiberius Antistius, the plebeian tribune of 422. So we get another one of the same gens coming through Sextus Pompilius. Yep. Most famous because of the Pompilius gens, which means you definitely of Sabine extraction. Yeah. And Marcus Canulinus, and this is known as a plebeian gens.

Dr Rad  08:05

Why ,I have him as Marcus Canuleius.

Dr G  08:09

it might just be my mispronunciation. I mean, I have clearly two variant spellings in my notes. Now that I know that I’m looking closely at them. So apparently the most famous bearer of the Canuleius name was Gaius Canuleius who was tripped into the plebs in 445. So somebody that we have encountered before, and is the one who introduced the plebiscite on a marriage the repeal to ban the marriage between patricians and plebeians.

Dr Rad  08:46

Well, that’s right. I was like I was looking at that name going, it’s so familiar. That’s a huge thing to have in your family.

Dr G  08:53

He’s Yeah, so this guy seems to be a comes from the same gens as that really famous tribune of the plebs from a couple of decades ago at this point, and the family seems to lose prominence after that. So this I don’t know if this is the last Canuleius we’re gonna see but-er, You heard it here first.

Dr Rad  09:14

Well, they’re hanging in it. They’ve got they’ve got a fingernail

Dr G  09:19

clutching on to the tribune of the plebs for dear life.

Dr Rad  09:22

Yeah, this is where I think 421 and 420 get a bit blendy because I also have an interrex listed for this year, which is Lucius Papirius Mugillanus who we talked about in our last episode, because he’s the one that came in and like, stop this madness. We can’t keep having all these interreges. This is crazy.

Dr G  09:45

This is madness. I indeed also have Mugillanus down as interrex for this year. But also, and I have to say, most excitingly, I also have a Pontifex Maximus and a Vestal virgin.

Dr Rad  09:58

I know I have not bothered to do any reading about this because I know that I’ve got the world leading expert on Vestals and I was like, I don’t need to do anything.

Dr G  10:11

I’m happy to take the reins on this tale of woe such as it is.

Dr Rad  10:15

Exactly. Which means you finally have you know, source material. Very exciting.

Dr G  10:20

Look, you’d be surprised about how little I have even.

Dr Rad  10:25

I’m on board whenever you have.

Dr G  10:26

It is a tough year. I’m in a really fellow section in terms of source material. As you know, Dionysius of Halicarnassus is perenially missing and even Diodorus Siculus, who is unreliable at the best of times, but we do like him is also currently unavailable. So

Dr Rad  10:42

that’s okay, you know, it’s actually this year is actually structured well for us in that most of the action that you wouldn’t be aware of happens first, then we get to the Vestal.

Dr G  10:52

Okay, that’s exciting. So I’ll just tell you the names of these characters and yeah, well let you get into like the the main action for the year which I’m completely at, like lacking. So we’ve got Spurius Minucius is our Pontifex Maximus. Yeah, and our festival virgin is Postumia.

Dr Rad  11:14

Okay, exciting times. Alright, so let me tell you about 420 BC Dr. G. Nobody remembered anything because of all that stuff they were smoking – no, I’m just kidding.

Dr G  11:27

that explains a lot about what’s going on with my source material.

Dr Rad  11:31

So allegedly, we had this period, unfortunately, we’re on there where there are and maybe the 420. Who knows where there were lots of interreges, but they managed to resolve that situation. And at the end of that whole process, they come out with military tribunes with consular power. And it’s all patricians all the time, Dr. G.

Dr G  11:51

Colour me surprised. I’m shocked. I’m really shocked.

Dr Rad  11:55

I know. So one of these military tribunes with consular power Atratinus Atratinus What do we prefer?

Dr G  12:03

Oh, look, I like Atratinus. But that’s just me really. Don’t feel wedded the fact that we learned Latin in Australia, it’s probably means that we’re butchering it a lot. Certainly, I know others would pronounce it differently.

Dr Rad  12:21

Like there’s nothing I enjoy more than butchering an ancient language. All right, I’ll go to Atratinus or Atratinus then oversees the election of quaestors which had been the sore point the previous year in terms of who gets to be a quaestor and that sort of thing. So there were some keen for plebeians in the race so the tribunes finally be like Yes, finally someone’s actually running for something – amazing!

Dr G  12:47

they got up and said like we’re going to abolish the whole thing because you none of you are even trying what’s the point of view even having a chance

Dr Rad  12:55

Exactly. You’re embarrassing us you’re embarrassing the whole day in class, whatever that is. One of them was a guy called Aulus Antistius. Son of a tribune of a pleb No, son of a tribune of the plebs.

Dr G  13:13

Okay, so the Antistius that I have listed down as the tribune of the plebs is quite possibly either running for quaestor as well, or running for quaestor instead?

Dr Rad  13:25

I would say it’s probably his son. Yeah, I would say it his son.

Dr G  13:31

Okay. Somebody lower down on our hypothetical cursus honorum that we don’t exist.

Dr Rad  13:36

And then and then we also have a brother of a tribune of a tribunes of the plebs, the brother of Sextus Pompilius.

Dr G  13:43

Oh, what’s his name?

Dr Rad  13:44

I don’t know. Actually, it just says it’s just as his brother. I mean, yeah.

Dr G  13:50

Pompilius the other one, we’ll call him Pompilius Secundus.

Dr Rad  13:54

Bro Pomp. Bro Pompey, that’s what we’re going to call him. Yeah, so though these guys are obviously connected to people in power, because you know, they have these connections with guys who have either held the office of Tribune or are currently holding the office of Tribune. The people still couldn’t resist the lure, the glow, that was coming off the patrician candidates because they have the blood of mighty consuls running in their veins. I mean, you can see it in their blue veins.

Dr G  14:30

When I get a wound on the front, little consuls come out instead of blood drops.

Dr Rad  14:38

That’s exactly right. So as a result, they don’t get to look in. They ran and they fail.

Dr G  14:44

Damn, what are we going to see some power to the people around you is

Dr Rad  14:48

what kicks off the problem because the tribune of the plebs are ropable, particularly Antistius and Pompilius understandably, because they like

Dr G  14:59

yeah They were pretty invested

Dr Rad  15:01

the hell like our guys are just as connected as the other guys. This is actually a burn to us. We feel it we feel it because it’s like an insult that their connections to us is somehow not the same as a console we’re not good enough for you. Like you only have to have certain kinds of connections in this world deaths guesting Okay, so they’re not happy at all that like the tribune of the plebs have done so much for Rome. They serve so well. And what about the politicians? They are douchebags they’ve done nothing.

15:42

They screw up all the time.

Dr Rad  15:44

The patricians were such douchebags How could no plebeian ever be chosen military military tribute with concealed power? And now also not be chosen as frickin quaestor? What, I’m not good enough to do your paperwork?

Dr G  16:00

Look, I think this might in part be related to the way voting is conducted in the ancient Roman world. And I’ll caveat this being like, like everything with this period of Roman history, we don’t know much, for sure. But the voting system as it develops, seems to really be a top down approach. So everybody who’s there, who is a citizen who is male gets to have a vote, and that’s fine, but you’re voting in groups. And those groups are voted from the most senior, and hence the most patrician down, and it’s first pass the post. So by the time anybody might even be thinking about bringing in a vote for a plebeian candidate, chances are all the positions have been filled by patricians voting in their buddies.

Dr Rad  16:48

Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly it. So I don’t know why there’s no outrage. It’s like the system’s rigged against you

Dr G  16:52

guys. Yeah, the system is rigged. That’s that’s entirely the point. Yeah, exactly. But

Dr Rad  16:56

they, they just can’t get over it. Because they’re like, they obviously had campaigned hard on behalf of their relatives. So like, we were personally campaigning, personally asking people for them to vote for our relatives, our son, our brother. Okay. How is this possible that after everything we’ve done for the people, it hasn’t worked? And their conclusion is this strategy. There is no doubt about it. Aulus Sempronius Atratinus has done something dodgy, in fact, a fake election, someone called fake election here.

Dr G  17:35

I’m here to tell you that these results will not stand because they cannot. Somebody made them up.

Dr Rad  17:42

I was. So it actually, I laughed. And then I felt sad when I read this because I was like, Oh, my God, the fact that painful? Yeah, like fake elections is

Dr G  17:53

it’s kind of like the oldest trick in the book, which is why you have to have a rigorous independent body overseeing electoral process. The only way to get it done right. Yeah.

Dr Rad  18:01

And to be fair, it’s not that in the past, there haven’t been people who have tried to fake elections or people who have successfully faked elections.

Dr G  18:11

Are you telling me that corruption is baked into the human condition?

Dr Rad  18:14

I just thought I should caveat that with the fact that I’m more sceptical of claims to fake elections, because I live in the age of Trump just in case anybody’s listening to this in 15 years. And I don’t for a second believe that elections in America have been faked. Like now. But I acknowledge that Sure. There have in the past been such things.

Dr G  18:36

Yeah, historically, there have been cases of fraudulent elections and, you know, not dissimilar to things that we’ve seen across the 20th and even the 21st century, in some situations, but not we would note in the US,

Dr Rad  18:51

yeah, I just think that Trump is a very dangerous person, and that’s probably why it’s not getting elected. God, God can only hope that it continues that way.

Dr G  19:00

Time will tell Yeah.

Dr Rad  19:03

political stance over

Dr G  19:07

Just a little excerpt on our own leftism again.

Dr Rad  19:10

You know, these days, I don’t even think it’s leftism, I just think it’s called being sane and recognise, recognising a dangerous precedent when you see them, Ah judgments, judgments, judgments. Anyway. So unfortunately, the tribunes couldn’t really do anything about this situation. They can’t go after Atratinus. Not just because he’s smugly, sitting there pretending that he’s innocent, blah!, but also because he is a military tribune with consular power, and therefore his office affords him some protection.

Dr G  19:44

Oh, does it now. Well, he should have Imperium, but it doesn’t mean that he’s body’s inviolable. Now somebody could run up to him and punch him in the face.

Dr Rad  19:53

If only someone would do that to Donald Trump. No, don’t make him a martyr, leave him untouched. Anyway, so instead, the tribunes decide to go to go after Atratinus’ cousin who is our old friend Gaius Sempronius from  423.

Dr G  20:17

When in doubt return to the guy that failed on the battlefield as if he hasn’t experienced enough humiliation.

Dr Rad  20:23

He thought he got away with it but not this time. So they decided they’re going to prosecute him with the help of another Tribune, one Marcus Canuleius for his conduct in the war against the Volsci. The  Tribunes also decided they’re going to bring up the way that the Senate is splitting up the public lands because Gaius Sempronius had always been against this – shocker. Against the splitting up of public lands in a particular way – what?

Dr G  20:57

Yeah, I mean, we’re really playing into the stereotypes this year out, we goodness me patricians. What are you doing to yourselves?

Dr Rad  21:04

Well, the reason why they brought this up, it’s very strategics. Very clever, actually very devious. They know that he’s held this stance on public lands. And so what they’re hoping is it’ll be like a red rag to a bull. They’re thinking he’s going to either act a certain like he’s going to a couple of ways he could either maintain his attitude that he’s historically held, and therefore, piss off the plebeians, which will obviously probably not work in his favour with this whole prosecution thing, right,

Dr G  21:33

considering they’re coming after him because they’re already annoyed. Yes, yeah,

Dr Rad  21:37

exactly. Or he would back down on this issue, and the patricians would be like class traitor, and stop caring about him.

Dr G  21:46

I see the own political wedge. All right. Yeah. I’m excited to see which way he goes.

Dr Rad  21:52

Okay. So Sempronius decides that it’s most important to do right by Rome. To hell with his own future.

Dr G  22:03

That is not revealing about what his stance is going to be

Dr Rad  22:06

okay. So you basically says To hell with my own future, I’m going to stick to my guns over the land issue. So he goes with Option A. He doesn’t want the tribunes to get any credit for anything that they’re doing here. So he points out that the tribunes actually have been very cynical themselves. They’re actually care about the division of public lands. They’re just using this to get him so he sees through their plan because he’s also deviously clever.

Dr G  22:37

I mean, he would say that though, but historically, the tribune of the plebs have always been interested in land redistribution. So there’s an easy comeback for that claim.

Dr Rad  22:46

I know. I’m like well, okay, like maybe maybe they are being very clever in the way that they use this issue. But there’s a reason that they bring it up because you’ve spoken on this issue in the past. It is an ongoing issue, Sempronius. Anyway, so he decides I’m not going to be cowed. He says they can try all their dirty tricks, stupid tribunes. I think they’re so clever. But I I am brave. I am patrician. I will not back down not for one second.

Dr G  23:17

A man’s asking for a punch in the face.

Dr Rad  23:20

Exactly. Well, I mean, yes, but of course the patricians are just like we’re falling even more in love with you. Sempronius

Dr G  23:27

Oh, no,

Dr Rad  23:28

I just gonna gaze into those cold, lacking in empathy eyes and

Dr G  23:34

be like, That’s my man. That’s my patrician right there.

Dr Rad  23:38

And he says the Senate should not value me or any individual so much that they aren’t making the right choices for Rome. They should always be acting in Rome’s best interests. Okay. So getting even more selfless by the second.

Dr G  23:57

Well, and there’s a nice sort of didacticism built into that. I shouldn’t say didacticism get all of my syllables out. Well, I’m gonna say something. Because part of what is happening here is this is kind of like a training manual for patricians, in some respect, this kind of source material, because it’s, it’s like, well, if you want to be in this very elite group, part of what you have to do is you have to decide what’s best for Rome. And they don’t make this sort of critical distinction that maybe what’s best for Rome might also just always be what’s best for them as as the elite, but this idea that somehow the way that you frame things rhetorically is around what is best for the city, and hence for

Dr Rad  24:42

everything. Yeah, exactly. So Sempronius then has to trot off to his trial. Let’s see how this works out for him. So he decides to defend himself naturally. I mean, who could do a better job clever? Yeah. Although of course, this is not a is not necessarily super unusual in ancient Rome and standards like usually, if you’re watching a television show these days, and a character makes a choice to defend themselves. It’s either because they’re a hero and a genius, or they’re the villain.

Dr G  25:14

Yeah, they either know everything about the law and they gotta be fine. Or they do nothing about the the law and it’s going to be a spectacular failure.

Dr Rad  25:23

I mean, obviously, as you say, we can’t really speak to what’s going on in room at this point in time in terms of exactly what it patricians education looks like. But if I’m using what I know from later on, he would be trained in public speaking, and he would have some experience with rhetoric. So

Dr G  25:38

he would Yeah, he would not only have that rhetorical training, one would assume but also be well versed in the laws at play. So that’s part of that’s part of the elite education if you like, so. Yeah,

Dr Rad  25:52

yeah, exactly. So the senators, of course, because they love him so much, because he’s just been super honourable and selfless throughout this whole affair. As far as they’re concerned. They tried very hard to soften the plebs up before a vote, you know, for his verdict is rendered, however, it doesn’t work. Yay. And so he ended up being fined 15,000. mighty fine asses.

Dr G  26:21

Yes, a, it sounds like a significant sum, but it is. I guess. Maybe it is.

Dr Rad  26:30

A decent sum if we think that we don’t sound like a reasonable amount of money to be fine. Yeah, it is a decent sum. If we think about we actually had a trial not that long ago, when again, when we were dealing with the aftermath of 423 in the spectacular mess that Sempronius made, there was another patrician who found themselves on trial, Postumius for his conduct in battle from a few years before 423. And he was fined 10,000 assets, so

Dr G  26:54

Okay. All right. So there’s more it is this is this is upping the ante in terms of fining?

Dr Rad  27:00

Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. Anyway, so that is I hope the last we hear Sempronius Because he has been haunting us.

Dr G  27:10

He’s had a rough trot these last few years. Yeah, I guess we’ll he will have to pay his fine. Either that or he runs away to try and find a way out of it. Stay tuned.

Dr Rad  27:19

Yeah, exactly. Now, this is where I segue to a Vestals story, huh? Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so we’ve got a Vestal virgin being charged with unchastity and I’m not gonna say any more, I’m gonna let you tell me.

Dr G  27:37

All right, so our key characters at play here is the Pontifex Maximus, Spurius Minucius, and a Vestal virgin Postumia. So we can assume that she comes from the Postumius gens. So one of these elite patrician families, and that’s fine. But she finds herself and we don’t know, quite initially, like how that might happen. It doesn’t seem to be attached necessarily to the other politics that’s going on. But it is often the case that the way that Vestal virgins are treated, does link in to the other politics that their family members and gens colleagues are experiencing

Dr Rad  28:16

Well, funnily enough, I mean, we were just talking about whatever we do have a Postumius. Yeah, yeah. And he was just he was just found himself in trouble and was fine, like, not long before. And I actually think I think we were talking about the fact that it seems like there actually are some problems with the Postumius family, at this point in the republic in terms of they seem to be, I think it’s them in and the other family that they’re allied to, which I think is the Sempronii. Maybe it’s one of them. But anyway, yeah, it seems like the Postumii and their their allies might have been going through a bit of a tough time and potentially been involved in some sort of rivalry for who’s going to be the preeminent patrician ganz in Rome at this point in time.

Dr G  28:58

Yeah. And it seems like one of the things that can happen to Vestal virgins is that they get dragged into that broader politics, which makes sense. They’re elite women, drawn from elite families, and they have a legacy of continuity, that is not the same as what happens for the male members of their family. So what we what we tend to see in the political arena directly is that people hold posts for about a year. They get brought in, they do their thing, and they flew back out again, and there’s a new set of elections and some new patricians come in. Yes, and you can have repeats of people over the years, that’s fine. But there is always a system of choosing them. Again, it’s not like they have a legacy where they just keep going, not in this period of Rome’s history, but for vestals. It’s quite different because they’re selected for ritual purposes. And even though ritual purposes is always sort of in a relationship with political purpose, their choosing is done very differently and The length of time that they’re in their role is very different as well. So they’re chosen quite young, between the ages of six and 10. And they serve for a minimum of 30 years in the role. And these are visibly public women in the sense that they have things that they are tasked to do that they have to be present in the public space for. And this is not to suggest that Roman women in general weren’t in the public space. They definitely were. But people are expecting to see the Vestals at certain events, they have

Dr Rad  30:34

a they have an actual public role to perform. And then

Dr G  30:38

they’re not just out and about doing some shopping or going from place to place and things like that, you know, they’re, they’ve got a place to be, and I’ve got a task to do. And their relationship to the gods is an important one for ensuring the broader Pax deorum that Rome subscribes to, which is to be in right relationship with the divine. Yeah, and

Dr Rad  31:00

certainly compared to other elite women. And like, I think we can agree that obviously, the lower down the class you go, the less anybody cares, like what you do in terms of what that you know, how you’re conducting yourself in public. But for our leet women of this time, it would seem that the ideal is for them to be quite circumspect with their behaviour in public and certainly to have a level of seclusion to their lives, in terms of who they’re interacting with, what time of day, they’re interacting with people and that kind of stuff.

Dr G  31:30

Yeah, definitely. And women sort of fall under the protection of their partner familiarise, generally speaking. So this means that those women are under the power of a broader father figure that might be their direct father, it might be the grandfather further up, whoever is the chief man of the family at that point in time, or is the oldest guy, but the Vestals it’s a little bit different, because once they are brought into the Vestal virgin fold, they are removed from their natal family in a technical sense, which is interesting. But it’s obviously an also an incomplete kind of process, because it’s not like they changed their name or anything. They retain the name that is suggestive of the gins they belong to. So everybody knows which family they come from. Sure, but there’s a sort of technicality where they no longer fall under the potestas of their pater familiarise. They now fall under the potestas of their Pontifex Maximus.

Dr Rad  32:27

Yes. Still a man in the picture.

Dr G  32:30

There’s always a man in the picture.

Dr Rad  32:32

Yeah, certainly, as you’ve highlighted, particularly as we go later, in time in Rome’s history, we still see them having family loyalty and being, as you said, being caught up in family affairs, and I checked it, it was the Postumius and the Quinctii that I was talking about. But yeah, as you say, they do still have those ties to their birth families. Yeah.

Dr G  32:56

Yeah, definitely. I mean, you can take the kid out of the family, but can you take the family out of the kid? So Postumia is going around doing her business, but she does find herself accused of this crime that’s very particular called in incestum, which is often translated as unchastity, because we really don’t have a good word to describe the semantic field, for incestum in English. Unchastity sounds unwieldy? And indeed it is. So incestum, this covers both sort of behaviours, it covers appearance, and there’s a sense in which it ties into broader social concepts about morality, basically, and it’s like, are you behaving in the right kind of way? Are you appearing in the right kind of way? Do you seem to have a modest connection between the way you are in the world and the way that people perceive you, and it sort of functions as covering everything from the thoughts of the person involved, to the way in which they behave with their body in the physical realm, right, so it covers all sorts of things. So in custom is often thought about as just being a loss of virginity, but it covers much more than that, okay. And we can see that instantly when it comes to Postumia, because what she’s accused of is basically adorning herself in a way that suggests that, you know, she’s a little bit open and free in her demonstration of her personality. She has she is described in Plutarch as having a ready laugh and over bold talk when she’s in men’s company. Now, it might be the case that she also has already laugh, over bold talk when she’s in women’s company, but the men aren’t paying attention to that. So that’s not what she’s accused of. It may just be her personality,

Dr Rad  34:53

a woman having a personality I don’t think so. That’s not appropriate. Please put that away. Nobody wants to see it here.

Dr G  35:01

that personality, she seems to be having a good time at this party and I cannot abide by that something must be going wrong. Exactly. Yeah. So the other thing that she’s got going on is that she has a push on for dressing attractively goodness knows what that means. Chances are she’s just dressing the way that’s comfortable for her. And much like in the modern day, a woman’s dress does not tell you anything about what’s going on with her personally. Not an invitation.

Dr Rad  35:30

Is she wearing a miniskirt? I don’t know.

Dr G  35:33

I don’t know. I don’t know. But somebody’s found her attractive and that this becomes her problem then because she gets accused of this crime of incestum. And the problem within custom is because it’s it sort of covers everything from inappropriate dress, you know, being a little bit of a vivacious all the way up to lost virginity. The ultimate punishment for incestum is being buried alive.

Dr Rad  36:04

And oh my goodness, it seems like an overreaction to some red lipstick. I mean,

Dr G  36:08

For that mascara, you must die? Yes. Yeah, it’s a real problem. The Romans, they sort of they go a bit overboard with this kind of stuff. So the problem from the Roman perspective, and the way that they sort of understand these things, is that if, indeed Postumia is guilty of incestum, that means that the relationship with the gods is not right. It has been severed in a particular way because her behaviour in the physical realm, the things she thinks, what she wears, how she does things, all of those sorts of things contribute to her maintaining her responsibility within that broader sense of the Pax deorum. Right. So there are six Vestals, they all have to behave as appropriately as possible from the Roman perspective of what is appropriate for them. And heaven forfend. You should have a ready laugh or some over bold talk.

Dr Rad  37:07

I do actually like the translation of the view that I was reading it says that she got into trouble because of her clothing as you’ve highlighted, but also the amazing freedom of her wit.

Dr G  37:20

Yeah, like she likes she likes a good sneaky joke. So yeah, I

Dr Rad  37:25

think this for me was like a code of if either you or Dr. G wherever transported back to ancient Rome to become Vestals, you would definitely die.

Dr G  37:35

immediately be buried alive. This is why you do not time travel. Okay.

Dr Rad  37:43

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like a great idea. But before you know it, you’re in a chamber somewhere to to any station.

Dr G  37:49

Yeah, terrible, terrible. Yeah, she has apparently an easygoing character more easygoing than the fits a young woman. And so this accusation of in costume is raised against her. Now, the thing with these kinds of accusations is that any Roman citizen can make them. So it really doesn’t take a Yeah, it really doesn’t take much for them to happen. If somebody has decided that, you know, they’ve got an issue with your family, or they genuinely have a suspicion that, you know, maybe they’ve done something that they shouldn’t have. Anyone can come up to the Pontifex Maximus and be like, Oh, gee, I don’t know about that. Sheila. A. So that a little bit outrageous. Yeah, so that situation can happen. Anyway. I mean, the good news, yes. For Postumia Is that Spurius Minucius, the Pontifex Maximus, seems to be like a genuinely reasonable dude. And this is good news. So rather than finding her guilty, he does not. He takes the case to the Pontifical college. So there’s a group of lower pontificates underneath him. They go and take the case to a vote. And they find in her favour.

Dr Rad  39:03

Yay. miniskirts? Red lipstick, here we go. Yes.

Dr G  39:10

Postumia wins the day. Yeah. Now unfortunately, there are some stipulations that they make to her on the result. She is no longer able to make jokes. Wow. She must abstain from jokes. No more of that.

Dr Rad  39:29

Just lay off right. Just lay off the comedy. Leave. The patricians and the plebeians. I mean, I think you can say that we’re unintentionally hilarious.

Dr G  39:37

We know what’s funny. You don’t know what’s funny. Class Warfare.

Dr Rad  39:41

That’s what’s funny. Yeah.

Dr G  39:42

You know, I think it’s like the classic scenario where, you know, women in comedy have found it really hard to break through for a long time. A lot of stigma and his costume. Yeah. Postumia is on the front line of that being like but guys, I’m hilarious. And then like, I don’t think so. No more. Yeah. The other thing is that she is asked to dress with sanctity rather than elegance.

Dr Rad  40:09

Oh, yeah, she has to put away the sexy clothes.

Dr G  40:14

Yeah, no more showing off the figure in a way that appeals to you. You must dress like you’re wearing a hash and bag and preferably, just put on a hash and back. In fact, we’ve got one here, here it is. Go for it.

Dr Rad  40:26

And go for neutrals. You know, beige, beige, beige. We’re all about the beige.

Dr G  40:31

Oh, we love a good beige. There’s nothing that says like upper middle class aspirational than beige.

Dr Rad  40:37

Yeah, off white. Eggshell, ecru.

Dr G  40:42

I also kind of like what Plutarch has to say about this. So Spurius Minucius reminded her that the language she used should have no less dignity than her life.

Dr Rad  40:55

Oh, wow. That is a good one. I’m going to remember that actually, I’m going to use that against my students.

Dr G  41:04

Basically saying like, you’re a Vestal virgin, you really have to act like one.

Dr Rad  41:09

Well, okay. Like, I mean, yes, I do understand that this, you know, certain standards of behaviour that are professional. But then again, when you consider that being a vessel is a 24/7 gig. And when you consider the kind of workplace requirements, it’s like the fact that I find it increasingly ludicrous that all around the world, we force people to have these uncomfortable and restrictive unflattering office clothes. I mean, actually, I shouldn’t say unflattering. Sometimes they are very attractive, but nobody likes to wear them. Why do we force ourselves to? Like there is no, I increasingly baffles me that we don’t just dress to be comfortable, to be weather appropriate, and to be sustainable.

Dr G  41:55

This is like the, like the whole concept of the man’s tie. Yeah. And it’s like, like, I love a good 19th century career that, but yes, nobody can give me a good reason why anybody in the modern world has to wear the kind of ties that currently exist.

Dr Rad  42:09

I agree. Yeah, that’s, I mean, I’m just like, Look, if people want to wear office wear, because that’s their jam, go for it. But I will never understand why workplaces are like, Oh, no, you have to take this seriously. You really need to wear something made from you know, polyester and union. You know, you need to wear a suit, you know?

Dr G  42:28

No, I think this relates to possibly the distinction that has emerged over time that there is a dichotomy to be had between your private self and your Public Self. Yeah. And in a way, this ties in very nicely to what the Romans are doing throughout their whole sort of time as well. Because what Minucius is saying to Postumius, in this moment, is that actually, your job is a 24/7 job, being a vessel version is not about getting downtime, it is about always adhering to the principles that brought you into this space. So you joking around, and you wearing something that looks alright, is not doing the role justice. It is it is in fact, trying to bring something about your private self, if you like, into this public sphere. And we can’t have that. So it’s like, you know, she’s now in a situation where I’m pretty sure what happens to Postumia just gonna write my historical novel. Now. Postumia starts, she does take up this advice, and she does curtail her Public Self, because we certainly don’t hear about her coming back for another accusation of intestine, thank goodness. But I imagine she goes on with the body jokes. And she goes on with a dress ups in the safe space of the house of the Vestals, where she’s hanging out with her sisters during the business.

Dr Rad  43:50

Well, one can only hope. I do understand that being a Vestal is I suppose, kind of like the way we think of certain professions as being a vocation, not just a job. And so I can kind of understand that the difference is, of course, that she was forced to take this position as a child before she was maybe able to fully comprehend the way that her life was going to, you know, be shaped and changed by this very lengthy commitment.

Dr G  44:21

Yeah, this is a massive commitment to take on. And it’s one that invariably I would say, the candidates don’t choose for themselves. It’s about their physical ritual fitness to be chosen. It depends on them coming from an elite family. And if you’re an appropriate candidate, and the time is right, that we need a new Vestal virgin, chances are, you’re going to end up in a life situation that you did not choose for yourself, but happen to have been the chosen candidate for so the idea that Postumia might be railing against some of these pressures, just trying to be yourself and enjoy a little bit of life while she also has to do this thing that goes for years and is at is, is not surprising to me at all. And but I’m really pleased that Minucius allows that to be a disciplinary action rather than a live burial situation.

Dr Rad  45:13

Yeah, definitely. And look, I also should say, I’m not being naive here, I do understand that when you put on certain outfits, it does help you to get into a certain mindset. And I do also appreciate that whether we like it or not, humans are kind of superficial visual creatures at the best of time. So I do understand that there is a certain way that you present yourself, obviously, in certain scenarios, which are going to be expected whether you like it or not, I’m not naive, I just made I guess, it’s because I because I work in a profession where we’re quite active a lot of the time and our work is very unpredictable. And some schools I’ve been at not all schools, and certainly not the school that I’m currently at, very restrictive with what you’re allowed to wear as a teacher. And it’s kind of weird, because you’re wearing these, like quite expensive, fancy clothes, when you’re like running around, and you might be walking through mud, and you might be kneeling down all the time. And sometimes it just makes sense to have freedom of movement, and not to be worried about ruining these expensive clothes. And, you know, and and also, because I you know, because I’m a person that’s very concerned about climate change, and that sort of thing, I’m increasingly a fan of clothing that is sustainable. And to me clothing is sustainable. It’s clothing that you can wear in your private life and your public life so that you don’t have to have so many clothes, and are also made from certain fabrics. So I guess that’s why I’m a bit lighter. But I know that more more and more workplaces I know are being Freer with what employees can wear.

Dr G  46:40

And hopefully, if Postumia is ever coming back into this world reincarnated, she would be having a great time as well with a lot more freedom to express herself as she pleases and to wear whatever she wants.

Dr Rad  46:53

Exactly, exactly. I guess what I’m trying to say is that Postumia should be the woman I use on my logo for more sustainable workplace clothing.

Dr G  47:03

Done and Well, I reckon this is probably a good place to wrap up. Well, no. Oh, wait. Whoa,

Dr Rad  47:11

I do have a little bit to add to that. So as I said to you, when we spoke about the trial of Postumius and his colleague a few episodes ago from their own misconduct in battle, alleged misconduct, I should say, although I think Postumius was found guilty. So he can’t sue me for saying that. We talked about the fact that there was potentially this rivalry going on amongst the patricians. And I just wanted to add that I was reading up a little bit on this. I said, I didn’t read up on it, but I unintentionally did, I stumbled across something that that Postumii and the Sempronii were often very closely connected families through marriage. So whilst this Vestal case may seem to come out of nowhere and Livy’s narrative, if we think about the fact that we’ve got Sempronius, who’s had seen to escape prosecution earlier, now, he finds himself on the chopping block. If we put those cases together, it’s possible that these families were being attacked. And what this also is reading suggested was that possibly what we’re seeing is not only rivalry for like, who’s the greatest patrician gens, like that, but that maybe certain patrician families are advocating particular policies. So for example, the Postumii may have been on the side of more aggressive expansion to Rome, whereas other families like the Furii and the Manlii, we might remember our families represented as military tribunes with consular power in this year. We’re not as keen to to expand Rome at quite that pace. And in quite that way, so might be a matter of policies, I suppose. And factionalism, I think,

Dr G  48:56

yeah, I think family factionalism, we can definitely see as a an ongoing thread when festivals pop up in the narrative history. So thinking about what is that broader political context, which we’ve navigated very deeply or as deeply as we can give in our source material? Yeah. It seems to me like these sorts of things don’t come out of nowhere. And the, the idea that the thing that they’re the Vestals are accused of, it’s always the same crime, and it’s always a subjective kind of situation. So there’s very, very few ways to be able to verify that an in custom has happened, you know, you’ve gone and done it and cast it. Oh, no. No, it’s very, it’s very hard to back something like that up with actual evidence. So you can see the political thread underpinning that kind of situation because it’s a question That’s always related to the idea of Roman morality, and particularly how it functions for women through that patriarchal lens.

Dr Rad  50:10

Yeah, definitely. And I think we can’t obviously know for certain what exactly was going on within the patrician class at this point in time. We don’t even know if there is really a patrician class at this time. But I think shining into what we’ve been talking about in the last couple of episodes about this idea that the idea that the Roman state really wasn’t formalised at this point in time, if we go back to what you and I both alluded to, which is this theory that we’ve really just got, like warlords who have particular control over maybe certain areas, and they have clients and people who are loyal to them. And this is kind of more of a situation we’ve got going around rather than elections and consuls and that sort of thing. If we tie that together, I think we can definitely say whilst we don’t know what they’re fighting about, it obviously makes total sense that there is this constant rivalry because that’s how I kind of warlord era works like, you might have kind of divided up turf between particular families. And there might be pieces of you know, there might be periods of stability. But there’s also going to be those times when they you don’t agree or you can’t work together or you decide you want more.

Dr G  51:23

I gotta eliminate this whole family and all of their influence in order to increase my own.

Dr Rad  51:29

Now, I do have one final detail from Liddy for this year, which is a little side note that he loves to finish on these very anticlimactic side notes. Which is that the Greek control city of Cumae was taken by the Campanians.

Dr G  51:45

Oh, yeah, very interesting. So there was a Cumae in Italy. And it’s on the West Coast, and it is in Campania. So this is all making sense. This is all this is supposed to be where the Sibyls are. The cave, the cave at Cumae, interesting power dynamics happening in the South.

Dr Rad  52:05

Yeah, well, I thought I’d give a little bit of background to this detail. Because I realised that I just sort of went Oh, yeah. But then I thought, actually, I don’t really know what he’s talking about. So I’m going to look up, look it up. So the Campanian region, as you alluded to, it is below where the Volscians are positioned. So it’s a bit further afield, and the Romans generally then share with their military campaign. Yeah,

Dr G  52:27

you’re thinking if you’re if you’re thinking modern Italy, you’re thinking more Naples, and south.

Dr Rad  52:32

Exactly, yes. And this is like the region where Spartacus wreaks havoc eventually. But at this point in time, it’s actually probably kind of like a more distant place for rowing, because they’re really, really interacting with the people that are directly around them.

Dr G  52:49

And it’s also on the other side of Volscian territory. So it’s like, you know, in order to get there, you have to get through the Volsci, you and it’s like, I mean, that’s what’s always a nightmare, because they kind of always up for a fight instead. So

Dr Rad  53:01

there have been these Campanian and Greek settlements to the south, really all the way back to in the ninth century. Right. That’s when we started to see these, these peoples moving into the area and taking over. And it seems that they were even more powerful than Rome, in between the sort of ninth and sixth century. So we’re talking about probably very early room like technically before, you know, the traditional date of 753. But that that period, yeah.

Dr G  53:31

This this region that is known as Magna Grecia has been continuously colonised by the Greeks for centuries before we see the rise of Rome further to the north. And so there is a sense in which there is the the native italic peoples and the Greek colonisers have been in this sort of push and pull with each other for quite some time in the southern regions of it.

Dr Rad  53:59

Yeah, absolutely. So that these areas are powerful in the sort of regal period of Rome’s history, I suppose we’d say, and then we see a bit of a decline. And it’s interesting because there had been, we think, actually relatively strong connections between the Etruscans and the people in Campania, even though they are in different regions. So it does seem to have been connection between them in this regal period of Rome, let’s say. But then there had been two major events that had limited interest and power in Campania. And this is where we start to see I suppose the the gradual decline of the Etruscans as a major power in Italy. So one of them we have talked about, which is we going back to early republic, allegedly 505-504 There was

Dr G  54:50

five or five that is

Dr Rad  54:54

overhead occurred near Aricia where the Cumaens and the Latins were victorious against the Etruscans

Dr G  55:02

Interesting. Yeah, so this is where these are the kinds of stories that sort of really put into play this idea of like how far south were the Etruscans? And how independent are the Romans as a people from Etruscan culture? Because if the Etruscans and Cumae are fighting over Aricia like that is already more south than Rome itself. It Yeah, well,

Dr Rad  55:26

I mean this because it’s true. The reason why I looked into this is because I remember that a couple of episodes ago, I also mentioned a takeover Capua. And atrocities have been mentioned in that story as well. So that’s why I was like, I’m gonna look into this a little bit. Anyway, the other event was in 474. So again, still kind of earliest Republic, where a combination of Cumaean and Syracusan ships had won a battle against the Etruscans.

Dr G  55:52

Well, well, well. Syracuse is now in

Dr Rad  55:56

Syracuse. That’s right. Yeah. So we start to see the limitation of Etruscan power in the south. And increasingly, we see Oscan influence. Now, I think we’ve probably mentioned Oscan, before, but

Dr G  56:11

we have we have so this is one of the italic language groups of Italy. And I, if I’m remembering rightly and maybe correct me on this, because I’m just going off the top of my head. I think the Oscan language is sitting to the

Dr Rad  56:27

east are correct. Yes. And it’s generally most associated, I think, and again, this is off the top of my head. I think it’s mostly associated with the Samnite people. That’s correct.

Dr G  56:39

Yes, I think so. So

Dr Rad  56:42

and we still see traces of Oscan in in like Pompeii, for example, like when we look at the ruins, there are so often inscriptions in Pompeii. So it’s definitely, as you say, a language group. And it definitely has deep ties to Italy, and the various people that live there. So it seems that if we look at the bigger picture for a moment, that what we’re looking at, potentially in the for 20 years, and probably also to be honest, for decades before as well. a tonne of movement of people stopped to GE

Dr G  57:15

Hmm. There was a great movement and shift going on of people either pulling away as their power wanes, and then people coming in as their power starts.

Dr Rad  57:25

Yeah. And I mean, there’s possibly a range of reasons why people are moving, but particularly we see we start to see the movement of people from the central app unknowns into the region of Campania. And this is this ties into the story that I told about Capua being captured in 423, which seemed to come out of absolutely freaking nowhere. But it’s probably because we’re so focused on Rome, that we’re forgetting that there is this broader movement happening around Rome. And this will have an impact, of course, because one of the rooms, major entities on the horizon are the Samnites.

Dr G  57:59

Ah, yes. So I think part of this ties in nicely to some of the events that have come up in our narrative episodes previous to this one, where we’ve been looking at the way in which is a difficult climactic period, in Italy, where there’s been a whole bunch of sort of failed harvests, there’s been various pestilences come through. And this has really shaken up things. For the Romans, they’ve had some real problems around this. So if we take that as a broader sense of, there might be some like shifting, climactic interferences happening in the natural environment, that are changing the way that people are having to find food. In particular, if you’re from a mountainous region, it’s probably affecting you quite differently to people who live in a more Plains area where you can do a more sophisticated sort of harvest and organise sort of planting of crop and the mountainous regions. While you can do some of that you’re more limited because of the geography. So if the consequences that are having these negative impacts for the people who are not in the mountains in these plains regions, are also affecting people in the mountains, it’s going to lead to shifts of population as they have to find new sources of food, they have to find like food security is massive. So if you’ve got people who are awakening and power, part of that waning in power is directly tied to can we sustain a population in these regions? Or do we need to pull back? Yeah,

Dr Rad  59:32

absolutely. And this is the problem. We don’t have enough information about exactly what is causing this movement of people. And we don’t really know exactly what’s going on. Because if we look at the written sources, from rooms perspective, we have the southern random mentions from Livy where it seems like it’s a really violent takeover that happens, you know, sudden spurts or you know, there’s a sudden moment where a city is captured and you know, That’s the that’s the way that it appears. But if we look at the archaeology, it seems like there actually wasn’t really a sudden violent change where the Samnites suddenly came into power in this region, as you say, kind of to the east and a bit to the south, but actually quite a gradual shift, as we start to see more remnants with, you know, vestiges of often language churning up. So that’s a bit of a sign there. And it’s possible that what we’re dealing with is, you know, any number of situations like it could be that there were issues in campaign Yeah, between an increasing Oscan populace and uninterested elite, okay, it could be that we’re dealing with maybe an oppressed population fighting against their rulers, it’s really hard to tell exactly what’s going on between the Oscans, Etruscans and the Greeks and whether it’s even anything to do with ethnicity at all. It might just be, you know, the, the class nature of it, and where we’re dividing them up into the ethnic groups or the language groups or whatever. But certainly, it testifies to the fact that this is not just a tough period for Rome to go through, which we’ve mentioned before, but there are definitely some interesting and difficult changes happening in the broader Italian area.

Dr G  1:01:23

It’s really fascinating, isn’t it? Thank you so much for delving into that. That’s a I think that’s going to be good context for us as we move forward in time.

Dr Rad  1:01:31

Well, I never really thought about it cuz I was like, oh, yeah, that campaigns and then I’m like, wait a second.

Dr G  1:01:37

What do you mean Campania?

Dr Rad  1:01:39

Yeah, I suddenly realised that I actually, I probably should look that up. And the more I looked it up, I’m like, Oh, this is actually more complicated than I thought. Oh,

Dr G  1:01:48

good times. Good times. All right. We are at the official moment.

Dr Rad  1:01:55

It’s time for the Partial Pick. Thank you Igor, not Dr. G impersonating Igor

Dr G  1:02:08

Igor is currently on leave.

Dr Rad  1:02:13

All right. So tell me what is the partial pick a little about?

Dr G  1:02:16

Oh, look, it is a great time, Rome can win 50 Gold eagles. There are 10 possible eagles in each category up for grabs. Our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad  1:02:31

Who know there’s none of that going on in this episode.

Dr G  1:02:36

Yeah, we’ve got a lot of politics, but we don’t have a lot of fighting. Such.

Dr Rad  1:02:41

Yeah. Purely domestic politics. You’re all round. All right.

Dr G  1:02:45

Well, how about diplomacy?

Dr Rad  1:02:49

Hmm. I don’t think so.

Dr G  1:02:53

I mean, it’s kind of diplomatic of Minucius to you know, allow Postumia to not be buried alive.

Dr Rad  1:02:59

Okay. Okay. This is where I always get stuck. Yes. Okay. You could say it’s diplomatic. But isn’t diplomacy? I don’t think so. I mean,

Dr G  1:03:07

I’m trying to help. I’m trying to help Rome out to get some kind of score really?

Dr Rad  1:03:11

Let Rome suffer. It deserves it.

Dr G  1:03:14

Didn’t they put that guy on trial and charge him a whole bunch of these that diplomatic?

Dr Rad  1:03:22

Definitely no, decidedly.

Dr G  1:03:25

All right. All right. We shall move on. So far. It’s zilch from two. Expansion.

Dr Rad  1:03:32

Again, no, you generally don’t get expansion without military action. So very nice. What if they

Dr G  1:03:38

expanded their minds? I don’t

Dr Rad  1:03:41

think that there’s much evidence of that.

Dr G  1:03:46

Just what I try, just,

Dr Rad  1:03:48

I mean, I mean, sure somebody else is expanding. We’ve got this takeover q&a, but that’s not the Romans.

Dr G  1:03:54

All right. Well, I you know, yeah. The Campanian is doing all the heavy lifting this year. Yeah, exactly. All right. Nothing for expansion.

Dr Rad  1:04:02

No, we’re twos. No. I gave it long and hard thought. I mean, look, okay. I don’t know how do we feel about Sempronius? I despise him. But that was a rhetorical but

Dr G  1:04:20

it is very weird to us, for the patrician to take the rest of rhetorical stance that he’s going to be hard line for the good of Rome.

Dr Rad  1:04:31

It is Is it a thing? Is it weird to us or is it just

Dr G  1:04:35

attrition stubbornness at its finest?

Dr Rad  1:04:39

It is a patrician. It is

Dr G  1:04:42

more No, I know. I’m gonna I’m gonna say no, I was playing devil’s advocate. It’s okay. The answer is no, that’s not weird to us. I think we chose also has to involve the physical in some way if the body is not on the line. I don’t think we’re really talking about we’re towards here. I agree. I just thought a very specific type vibe. value within masculinity for the moments

Dr Rad  1:05:02

I’m fighting against my own bias against the patrician, so I want to make sure I am giving them the benefit of the doubt even though they are the Royalist of douchebags most of the time.

Dr G  1:05:17

So good. It’s all good. So, our subtotal currently still zero. All right, so everything hinges on this final category. Absolutely. All right, the citizens school, was this a good time in Rome to be a citizen?

Dr Rad  1:05:31

It doesn’t sound like the worst time in that we think about absence of evidence. Okay. So there’s no military action going on. So even though we don’t have anyone testifying that the citizens are doing cartwheels in the streets, it’s gotta be a benefit to them that they’re not, you know, risking death, risking destitution, that’s got to be of us. Yeah, they’re

Dr G  1:05:53

not suffering under a levy and then having to gather their equipment and head off into the sunset, never to be sure if they’ll see their families again. It’s a great time to be a citizen in that respect.

Dr Rad  1:06:03

You’re not being treated terribly. Well done. Yeah, yeah. So there’s that. But there’s also the fact that guys Sempronius, is actually finally held accountable. Because I mean, look, I can understand that sometimes things just don’t go the way they’re supposed to when you are the commander. And it’s not necessarily fair to put you on trial, just because it didn’t work out in a way that you couldn’t necessarily control.

Dr G  1:06:31

I do kind of love that the Romans do that, though, being like you failed the battle. That is a crime.

Dr Rad  1:06:38

behaviour was criminal, though, they’re really I’m going to put you on trial.

Dr G  1:06:42

criminal negligence, I tell you, that’s it.

Dr Rad  1:06:47

I believe our sources. And to be honest, I don’t see why I wouldn’t in the sense of Livy’s, clearly on a patrician side 99% of the time. So if he is willing to say that Sempronius did not prepare for battle and was just like, if Fortuna will take care of it, then you know, what you actually are liable to that like that, actually, is criminal negligence. That’s like the definition of criminal negligence. You just listen, you’ve just wasted everybody’s time. You’ve also put a lot of people’s lives on the line and cause death and heartache for people and their family. So yeah, you actually should be held accountable for that. So I actually think that this is a good thing. And the fact that the people aren’t swayed by the Senate trying to sweet talk them. I think that’s a positive. So I’m willing to maybe give a two for the citizen.

Dr G  1:07:42

Wow, all right. Yeah, I can’t imagine it could even possibly get up higher than like, to me the maximum ceiling would be five, because it’s not, it’s not like things went really well. It’s just that things didn’t go badly. So I’m like, we’re dealing with a glass half full or half empty situation. So five would be the maximum, and I’m happy to settle for two.

Dr Rad  1:08:06

Yeah. And I mean, actually, when you think about it, I mean, it’s not great that no perbanas get elected. But you see Livy’s puts the blame for that. On the for the audience. He doesn’t tell I think

Dr G  1:08:17

I feel like that’s misplaced and Livy’s should know better. No,

Dr Rad  1:08:21

I know. But when you think about it, this is actually you know what, Livy’s a frickin genius. Because when you think about the way he spun this narrative is artwork. He’s first of all blamed the plebeians for not electing their own as quaesters because the consular relatives are just so amazing. They’re falling all over themselves to get to the ballot box. When we fall know that if the if the voting system is anything like what we’ve got later on, or you know, anything like they say it’s so it’s totally us and whatever, set it up, as they are absolutely cut out of the voting system, if they are truly, you know, lower down. Now, look, there are wealthy beings out there. I know this is an entirely

Dr G  1:09:05

Yeah, but they’re gonna be sued. But like best case scenario, they’re sitting in one of the lower down voting groups, and they don’t get a chance. I mean, they should be rising up and getting angry about that, but they have to change the whole system. It’s not it’s not enough to try and get somebody elected. And it’s like, they actually need to overthrow the systemic issue in order and I can see how they’re like, Okay, well, we need to get in there so we can change it. And the problem is that the system is designed to keep them out. So it’s, it’s a massive issue.

Dr Rad  1:09:34

I mean, it’s genius, like the system designed to keep them out and yet it’s their fault when their own candidates don’t get elected. That’s genius. Point number one. Second of all, living in sets this up as this is the excuse that the tribunes are using to go against Sempronius when actually he absolutely should have his ass nailed to the wall because he absolutely did the wrong One thing, he is a dick, and there’s no getting around it like, and yet he set it up. So like, oh, the tribunes are being so diabolically clever, and they’re totally using this situation, as you know this pathetic front for going against him when they absolutely should have prosecuted and when they had the chance previously, and I don’t know why they didn’t. And then to add insult to injury, it’s Postumia fault that she’s dressing inappropriately and laughing too much, Dr. G. So he is blaming Oh, did she have a good time? Yeah, if ever there was an episode, systematic unfairness, this is the

Dr G  1:10:39

thank you so much for listening to the partial historians where it’s clear what our partiality

Dr Rad  1:10:45

is in the name Don’t get mad.

Dr G  1:10:49

We did try to warn you we did.

Dr Rad  1:10:52

I just think it’s actually it is actually artwork, the way that he’s written this particular account reading against what he’s telling me.

Dr G  1:11:00

Yeah. And I think it’s really useful to come to the source material with this kind of mindset, because it encourages you to question why are we being told these things? And these are good questions for historians to always ask? And I’m thinking of you listeners, because you two are historians, if you approach the material with the with the critical questions in mind, that’s doing history. So when you look at this sort of stuff, and you think to yourself, Well, why are they positioning it this way? Who is the real target audience here? Who is getting the benefit? And who is missing out on benefit? And how is that being leveraged against them? All of these kinds of questions really help you sort of see through some of the very clever rhetorical structuring that is at play.

Dr Rad  1:11:48

And that’s the thing like if I were busy researching something, and I was just dipping in and out of Livy, like, you know, reading the bits that were applicable to me, as you do when you’re researching, you don’t sit there and read Livy covered a cover because you need a section of Livy, what I’m getting such insight into the academic process here, but you don’t do that. So you dip in and out, right? If I were just to dip in, and I was on a deadline, and I was just researching this, I would absolutely just read that and be like, okay, yeah, that’s what happened. Cool. But the reason why I kind of love the fact that we move slowly, even though I’m sure everyone’s like, move faster.

Dr G  1:12:23

We literally can’t, because there’s too many things to analyse. So

Dr Rad  1:12:28

when you actually slow down and look at it year by year, you’re like, Oh, my God, this is genius. I mean, the line that this thing is really set

Dr G  1:12:38

up a trap, haven’t they?

Dr Rad  1:12:41

And you wouldn’t necessarily question it, because it’s just seems so matter of fact, it’s just like, oh, yeah, they did that. And they did that. And look, obviously, I’m not saying that I’m right. I can’t prove that I’m right, because it’s a theory. But certainly, I think as you say, it’s worth questioning why Livy has or who worked with, you know, whatever he sought before him was, Why have they position the events in this flow? You know, like, why, why have them connecting in this way? And why be attributing certain motives to people in this way. And I, personally, I think you can see our revenue only perspective at play 100% of the time in the year 420.

Dr G  1:13:22

I would agree humbly, based on the beautiful interpretation of Livy’s that you’ve provided.

Dr Rad  1:13:33

Maybe I’m just too suspicious, but you know, what the hell, as you say, we need to go on the boat closer to nothing people are here for our takes on things.

Dr G  1:13:42

Well, it has been an absolute pleasure. I’ve been very excited to talk about some Vestal virgins, and to learn so much about the year 420 BCE from you, Dr. Rad. Indeed. I’ll see you next time. Dr. G. Oh, and before we go, I’d like to thank our Patreons for their ongoing and beautiful support. You guys make this podcast even better than it already is. And so we appreciate that very much. And also, just doing a bit of a shout out for our book you want to hear about Rome and how it all began. We got you covered. We wrote a book on the Roman kings.

Dr Rad  1:14:18

We certainly did. There’s lots of interesting things that happen lots of conquest, lots of phalluses appearing when you least expect them.

Dr G  1:14:30

Until next time.

Dr Rad  1:14:41

Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and some bonus content. Today we’d like to send a special shout out to our newest Patreon, Steve Roger space for Luzi domesticate and Maple Leaf Ozzy. You could also support us by buying us a coffee on Kofi. However, if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Be partial! Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

The post Episode 139 – The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

This episode we return to the ‘Golden Age of Hollywood’ with a classic sword and sandal epic, Quo Vadis (1951). This film is available through many streaming platforms and we highly recommend revisiting it.

In Part Two of two episodes on Quo Vadis, we delve into our analysis of the film. If you have not listened to Part One, you might want to check it out for the context.

Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part Two

Hollywood loves a sure bet and MGM started working on their own adaption after WWII. The legacy of that war can be seen in the depiction of Nero and the Roman people. Nero seems to be a mixture of Mussolini and Hitler, and the use of eagles, fasces and the ‘Roman salute’ must have also dredged up unpleasant memories.

The newly emerging Cold War also had an impact on this movie, with the plot dealing largely with the clash of freedom (Christians) vs tyranny (Romans). The immoral, irreligious Romans could easily be seen as the ‘godless Communists’, whereas the Christians and converts stand for the American way of life. The film was made during the hunt for Communists in Hollywood itself. The first round of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) had started in 1947 and round two was destined to begin in 1951. These were dark days for many in the industry.

Black and white portrait photo of Peter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis.
He sits in a thoughtful pose and appears unhappy about something.
Source: Pinterest.

The head of MGM (Louis B. Mayer) and the male lead of Quo Vadis (Robert Taylor) were intimately connected with the HUAC hearings. Mayer had testified in 1947. Robert Taylor may not be a familiar name, but he was a massive star for MGM in the 30s and 40s. He was also known for his conservative politics and would be the only prominent Hollywood star to name names in front of the Committee. This might all seem to add up, but his testimony had just as much to do with his loyalty to Mayer, a fellow conservative, and MGM as his anti-communism.

Taylor had been forced by MGM and the Office of War Information to star in Song of Russia (1944), a pro-Russian film designed to promote friendly feelings about wartime alliance. Taylor had been dead against starring in the film in the first place, but he eventually went through with it so that he could be released by the studio to fulfil his military service.

Taylor was asked to testify in closed door sessions in front of HUAC early in 1947. He was quite frank regarding his political views, and Song of Russia might have come up. Taylor did not hold back as he thought this testimony would be kept private. When it was used to bolster the presence of HUAC, Taylor was less than pleased. Taylor and his wife Barbara Stanwyck were conservatives, but they did want to abuse their position as celebrities. They never wished to discuss politics in public again.

Black and white portrait photo of Robert Taylor as Marcus Vinicius in Quo Vadis.
He wears a Roman style military brestplate and gazes into the middle distance thoughtfully.
Source: Pinterest

Taylor would have to make one more notable exception on that front. Louis B. Mayer, like so many other studio heads, wanted to protect the movie industry. This was business, and with television on the rise and the 1948 ruling against studio-owned theatres, the ‘biz’ was facing enough obstacles in the late 1940s and early 1950s. They did not need the public thinking that Hollywood was spreading Communist ideology. More significantly, there is a distinctly antisemitic tone to the HUAC hearings, which must have made the largely Jewish heads of studios nervous, no matter how politically conservative they were.

Specifically, Mayer needed Taylor to testify a second time so he could back up MGM’s official line regarding Song of Russia. It was just a romance! Certainly not wartime propaganda…. HUAC also really wanted Taylor to appear again, purely for the publicity. They were correct: the press (and a lot of female fans) flocked to see Taylor’s testimony.

Taylor seemed to be uncomfortable when asked to name any suspected Communists in the industry. He was hesitant, but he did it. In the atmosphere of Hollywood at the time, Robert Taylor was celebrated by most for his patriotism. Whilst the best days of his career would soon be behind him after Quo Vadis and his testimony, this had nothing to do with his appearance before HUAC. However, these days, Robert Taylor is largely forgotten or remembered as a ‘friendly witness’.

Join us for our take on this rollicking ride through Neronian Rome and 20th century politics!

Thanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

Lygia and Marcus Vinicius posed against a pink and blue clouded sky. This looks like an official promo shot for Quo Vadis.
Source: ievenn

Dr Rad 0:18
Welcome to this special episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and normally Dr. G and I discuss the history of Rome from the founding of the city. But today we begin a deep dive into Quo Vadis in 1951. We ended up talking for so long about this epic that we have split the episode into two parts. Seems appropriate given the original film had an intermission. This is part two of our coverage of Quo Vadis, in which we will focus more on our analysis, the film and its betrayal of history. We hope you enjoy this sword and sandal classic as much as we did.

So in a previous episode, we’ve covered the background and plot to quiver strategy. Let’s now try and get a little bit more analytical and delve into the film in more detail. So I’m going to change gears a little bit dodgy because I feel like I had enough narrow for a moment. So first of all, I’m going to mention something which I have mentioned before when we’ve been talking about these films like “The Robe” and “Demetrius and the Gladiators”, we have to think about why Quo Vadis. Why now. And that is very much to do with the threat of a television you.

Dr G 1:34
Oh yes. How dare they don’t watch things on the small screen when you could watch things on the big screen?

Dr Rad 1:40
Yes. So as we talked about before, the 1950s is going to be the era of the widescreen technology that is officially however, launched with the robe in 1953. Now Quo Vadis is a large scale film in the sense that it’s long, it’s saturated with colour and excess. It’s the kind of thing that you’re not going to get on a small square black and white screen in your suburban home. So it is the kind of film that Hollywood believes is going to encourage people to come to the movies. And they’re right. Because they’re really running scared because it’s not just television, as I am sure I hope you’ve again mentioned before, it’s also the fact that they have lost a lot of power in 1948. With the anti monopoly laws, were they the movies used to control everything, you know, from the production of the film to the editing to the distribution. And monopoly laws of 1948 means that they lose their grip on the distribution. Oh, no, yeah. And so that’s a significant chunk of their business. They’re really, you know, it’s only a few years later, and this has been the model for quite some time. So they want movies like Quo Vadis, which they feel sure are gonna get people to come and watch them because that’s how they’re going to make them money. So that’s a bit of the movie business stuff. Now, specifically, the context of the 1951 film being one of the earliest sword and sands films. I need to throw this at you. World War Two.

Dr G 3:10
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it’s definitely a thing. I mean, it’s over. By the time we get to this film it is and, like, there must be filming, I guess in 1950. So we’re not far out. I was kind of surprised. But also like pleasantly surprised by just like, it’s all on location in Cinecitta. And you can see from the shots in and around when they’re doing sort of like chariot work and things like that. Yeah, they’re definitely in Italy.

Dr Rad 3:40
And doing chariot work?

Dr G 3:42
Yeah, like Mediterranean pines, like they’re definitely in the right place. They’re on location.

Dr Rad 3:48
Yeah, definitely.

Dr G 3:49
It’s pretty impressive.

Dr Rad 3:50
Yeah. I mean, look, they’re often parallels drawn between Roman emperors and the dictators of the 20th century. However, this film, I think, more than most was, I think, trying to lean on that. Okay, I think that it’s meant to be a bit of a weird blend of both like Mussolini, the fascists, and also the Nazis that we see here. Because the Nazis, of course, had been very anti religion. So I think you can kind of see the persecution of Christianity that’s happening here and the seeming decadence of Rome as being you know, tying into that a little bit. But also, of course, Mussolini himself had tried really hard to draw a connection between his Rome and the Rome of the ancients. How awkwardly phrased was that

Dr G 4:40
Ancient Romans and the modern Italy usually were Yeah,

Dr Rad 4:44
yeah. So the point where he put on an exhibit in 1937, called the Augustan exhibition of the Roman spirit. So he was really dwelling on that. And she had she had her course also had been constructed by Mussolini. So there’s an age interesting parallels there. Obviously, there’s a lot of Roman symbolism which the fascists use, like the eagles and the fasces. And they think the salute, although that’s been pretty much debunked by Martin Winkler as being a bit of a misunderstanding.

Dr G 5:15
Yeah. But the Roman salute that’s given in this film is visually resonant. Like there wouldn’t be many audience members who, who hadn’t seen some Nazi propaganda, you’d be like, oh, oh, I see what you did there.

Dr Rad 5:28
Yes, exactly. Yes. And there’s also a very clear accent divide as often is the case in these films we’ve talked about so a lot of the heroic Christian freedom fighting liberty loving characters are American. And the evil people, evil imperialist bastards. British. So of course, we have Peter Ustinov playing, or very memorably playing the role of Nero, whereas we’ve got people like Robert Taylor, very American, playing the heroic person. Now, I know he is a Roman character, but we know he’s all you can.

Dr G 6:07
You can tell from his accent that he’s going to switch sides.

Dr Rad 6:09
Exactly, exactly. And then the plan that Nero outlines the way that he says he’s going to kill all the Christians is very Hitler-esque, in that he says, he’s going to eradicate them from the face of the earth to the extent where people will doubt they ever existed.

Dr G 6:28
Yeah.

Dr Rad 6:29
Yeah. Which is creepily like a genocidal plan. And also the model of Rome that you mentioned. So you know, you said that Nero was going to burn Rome to the ground and rebuild it.

Dr G 6:40
Well, there is a model displayed in this film.

Dr Rad 6:42
Yes, yes, yes. And the shot of Nero standing over, I think, was very much meant to recall shots of Hitler, looking at Albert Spears plan for Germania.

Dr G 6:55
Oh, interesting,

Dr Rad 6:56
like the New Berlin

Dr G 6:57
because I was really interested in the map of Rome itself, because I was like, the reason map, there is a 3D map of Rome, right? Yeah, that looks very much like this model. And I’m wondering if it’s the same one, and I haven’t been able to, I haven’t had enough time to look into that.

Dr Rad 7:11
I actually probably could have found the answer for you if I had known beforehand, but I forgot to check that out.

Dr G 7:17
But I’m fascinated. So I’m gonna keep investigating that.

Dr Rad 7:21
Yeah. And they’re all these lines that Nero delivers throughout the film, which I think are really playing on those Hitleresque sort of things like he says to Petronius at one point, the world is mine and mine to end. Oh, yeah. And also we know that he is someone who has murdered his own father. So we already know that he is a monster. And therefore he from the beginning comes across as a tyrant like he’s obviously very amusing because it’s pretty used. But he is meant to be a monster. But

Dr G 7:57
I think there is something amazingly believable about Ustinov’s performance, though, which

Dr Rad 8:02
Oh, yeah.

Dr G 8:02
Which makes this film stand out, as opposed to some others where the Imperial figure is designed to be the ultimate bad guy. Yeah. But is played in such a way as to not make it sympathetic enough to believe that a real human could be that way. Yeah, was something about Ustinov’s performance is very naturalistic in the way that you like you can you get the sense that this is a mind that is maleable, that that he has particular drives and he’s trying to figure out how to best bring them to life?

Dr Rad 8:37
Yes.

Dr G 8:37
And he doesn’t conceive of himself as evil he conceives of himself as misunderstood.

Dr Rad 8:43
Yeah and also that idea of him having to be like on a larger scale again is almost not to like yeah,

Dr G 8:51
He sees himself as removed from the common people in part because the position that he has to fulfil is like as Emperor, I have this kind of duty to be very different from everyone else. So we talked a lot about how things have to be uncommon.

Dr Rad 9:05
Yes, I was gonna say I actually have the exact quotes I think it’s such a good one Peter Ustinov says I seek because I must exceed the statue of man in both good and evil I seek because I must be greater than man for only then will I be the supreme artists, let it be wonderful. Or let it be awful so long as it is uncommon? Yeah.

Dr G 9:29
This this is incredible sort of rationale in that Yeah. Which is I think if it was just read off the script, it might not you might not buy it. It’s like it’s very much the performance of Ustinov that brings back

Dr Rad 9:42
He’s just yeah, he’s performance stands the test of time, but you can’t always say about the circumstance. But yeah, the whole idea and the way that the other characters talk about the Christians like prepare saying, give room not one victim but hundreds. Who are these people, they just spies, our temple and our gods, they prophesied that the end of the world shall be caused by fire. Well then let it come true. Let it in for them, like it is that kind of idea of like scapegoating people, just like the Nazis do with the Jews, like it’s all very creepily there. Yeah. And also, then you’ve got Petronius coming in, of course, and being the warning of history, you do this, you make the murders, and you will suffer for it, which, of course, is exactly what has happened in your he has to be particularly bad reputation, because I think he has been seen as like the Antichrist, or at the very least an enemy of the Christian people, which for, you know, subsequent civilizations which pride themselves on being Christian, doesn’t make you a good guy. Now, gender is something I thought you might like to talk about a little

Dr G 10:52
Oooh,

Dr Rad 10:52
yeah. And that also ties in with World War Two. So tell me, what do you know about women’s role during World War Two?

Dr G 11:00
Oh, women’s roles in World War Two? Well, my understanding is and correct me if I’m wrong.

Dr Rad 11:05
Yeah.

Dr G 11:06
Is that because the men were away fighting? Yeah, it was incumbent upon women to really get behind the war effort in ways in which they possibly wouldn’t have been the first in line for if there was a non war time. So you have this shift of women into the workforce in different ways. It’s not the case that women weren’t working before the war. They definitely were. But the kinds of jobs that women were asked to do, or put themselves forward to do because the labour was needed. It was now all across the board. Yeah. And it was kind of like, if it had to be done. It had to be done. Yeah. So you know, the pictures of women on factory lines was not something that people were used to, but it’s something that definitely happened during the war, for instance.

Dr Rad 11:49
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s exactly how we need to say these sorts of films, and Quo Vadis is no exception, this idea that women had stepped up, gone into these roles, which were unusual. But now the men were back back to the private sphere with you, missy? Yeah. So it’s this idea of, I think, women as domesticate the need to have stable families. So Romans very rarely, in the 1950s and early 1960s have stable family. They’re generally somehow twisted, like, for example, mentoring your mother like Nero does, or can the wife as Nero. It’s the kind of you know, the cheating, the adultery is all that kind of stuff that the Romans partake in. And it’s this idea that will the the core of 1950s, America has to be proper Christian religious sentiment, family, and domesticating. femininity, and I am quoting directly from someone who I will reference in our sources.

Dr G 12:50
Ah domesticating femininity.

Dr Rad 12:55
Yeah. Yeah. So good. Women are shown as domesticating influences I see. Yeah. And they need to find someone to pair up with and convert.

Dr G 13:05
Well, well, well, Lygia, step forward.

Dr Rad 13:09
Yes, exactly. Here is obviously classic. She’s an entirely fictional character, obviously, for all the others adaptations. The interesting thing is, though, that there is a bit of a remnant of those women that didn’t want to go back into the private sphere after World War Two with literature, because in the 1950s version, she has moments of being kind of feisty, and knowing her in mind, which in the novel, she is not, she’s entirely passive interest. Yeah, she just does what she’s told to do by either her parents, her adoptive parents, or Vinicius or whatever. She’s really just like a chess piece to be moved around. It’s about possessing her obviously.

Dr G 13:48
Okay, so she’s been slightly rewritten for the 1950s audience.

Dr Rad 13:52
I think so. Yeah. Like they they know that you don’t want someone who’s a complete pushover. But the values that she stands for, nonetheless, like,

Dr G 14:01
well, actually, this kind of makes sense. So she gets accused of like, you know, filling your head with philosophies and things like that. Why would you do something like that? But that’s also Yeah. Well, it’s kind of also the thing that happens to you, you have this sort of like, narrative of the 1950s. And particularly in America, where it’s like, Sure, by all means, go to a good school and get an education but like your number one priority is to settle down with a husband and have some children. Yeah, so like, by all means, get that degree, but hidden for fun if you would attempt to use it.

Dr Rad 14:33
Yes. For anyone who wants to get a vibe for what he is talking about. Mona Lisa smiles, excellent.

Dr G 14:41
Also Mad Men, which I know is very rude now, but I still love it.

Dr Rad 14:45
Yeah, no true true true. Now bad women, of course, are the kind of women that want public power.

Dr G 14:50
Oh, I love Poppaea this film, though. Yes. So you know she enters with two cheetahs on a leash

Dr Rad 15:00
Like Bad Girl table of one

Dr G 15:01
Oh glorious. And you know, it’s like it’s all the makeup. It’s the dress. It’s the it’s the sultry gaze. It’s the one of the things I notice from a cinema cinematography perspective. Yeah. Is that Lygia is tends to be always shot on the three quarters. You don’t get front on shots because I was like, what is it? I just want to know what Deborah Kerr’s nose is like from the front, you know, but I do

Dr Rad 15:32
You’ll have to watch “An Affair to Remember” to get that.

Dr G 15:35
Definitely, I would didn’t get it in this film. But Poppaea is often shot front on

Dr Rad 15:39
Yeah,

Dr G 15:40
and there’s a real so there is choices being made artistically about how these women are shown. And the angles that you get of them, to sort of set them apart from each other as well because Poppaea is front and centre. Next to Nero in public. But also somebody who is given space to be a decision maker about certain things. So she does make decisions publicly.

Dr Rad 16:05
Yes.

Dr G 16:06
And people just go along with it. And it’s not like she defers to Nero, when she does that.

Dr Rad 16:11
No, and that’s exactly she’s meant to be obviously showing, like, this is what happens when not only women want public power, but when they get it, it’s terrible. They don’t know how to exercise it properly. They should be focusing on me why?

Dr G 16:25
She’s like, ridiculous, get over here.

Dr Rad 16:29
But this is, you know, this is the thing about how passive and so Poppaeas Sabina is a real person, obviously, like Nero, or she was a real person, I should say.

She is a historical figure. She is a historical figure.

And I feel terrible, that she always comes across so badly, because she’s a murder victim, guys. She’s a victim of domestic violence. Yeah, what really happens to her is that Nero supposedly loses his temper and kicks her kicks her in the stomach while she’s pregnant with their child, and she dies because of complications to do with that injury. I mean, added to that way to go. Now, look, the sources are not kind to Poppaea Sabina either. So I’m not saying there’s not some basis. I think, I think Sienkiewicz did his research. You know, I think he read up about this. And I think the best way to sum this up is this little line from Tacitus. This is what he says about Poppaea. She was a woman possessed of all advantages, but a character.

Dr G 17:26
Oh snap.

Dr Rad 17:28
yeah, exactly. And so he goes on and on about how awful she is in that she’s beautiful, and she’s witty, but she is depraved and gives into luxury. And she sleeps around and all that kind of stuff. So look, all of that may be true. Whatever I get it. It’s not what the Romans are looking for in wives either. But part of the also wonders how much of this has been exaggerated, because Nero is a bad guy. And we know that when you’ve got a bad guy, he must be not controlling this woman properly. He’s hassled, you know, in disarray. He’ll be associated with a woman who has all the stereotypical bad qualities.

Dr G 18:08
Yeah, this becomes part of the political invective that you level against. Right? Yeah. And so part of the way that you bring him down is to bring down everybody who is connected with him. So there is no way it’s very tricky, I think for somebody like prepare to be able to come out well from this, particularly when the previous wife Octavia has had was so publicly popular. So people even in the historical record, following Nero aren’t willing to openly criticise her because, by comparison, she was the bee’s knees.

Dr Rad 18:42
Yeah, and in all the ways it will for all the reasons that near apparently find her boring was that she was loyal, dutiful, quiet, just went about her business, like being private, not in public, you know, no ambition, that kind of stuff. So yeah, anyway, look, I just thought I had to mention that. So there’s a bit of like, World War Two gender stuff going on. Also for the men. I think it’s no accident. Again, we often talk about the issues with masculinity that are shown on screen and these sorts of movies. And I think it’s no accident that Peter Ustinov Nero is highly effeminate in the way that he’s played, whereas Robert Taylor, our hero, super masculine, yeah, willing to be domesticated. So it’s kind of almost like how the soldiers come home from World War Two and the woman’s like leaving the literary crap at the door. You’re entering the domestic sphere now baby. So all about, you know, pumping out the little ones and putting up white picket fences.

Dr G 19:37
And there is a moment later on in the film where Vinicius kind of has a realisation that he was being pretty boorish at the start of the film.

Dr Rad 19:46
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 19:47
So there is a sense in which that narrative is being perpetuated and they’ve sort of put him into a bit of a domesticated situation and he’s agreed to go along with it because, well, you know, Lygia, she is just so freakin hot. Yeah,

Dr Rad 20:02
Deborah Kerr as in star. Okay, so the other bit of context that we have to mention and I think I know we mentioned this is all these sorts of movies is, of course, another war Dr. G, but the Cold War

Dr G 20:14
Ah, feel that shiver in the room.

Dr Rad 20:18
It’s not getting hot in here.

Dr G 20:21
I’m putting on more clothes even as we speak.

Dr Rad 20:23
Yeah. Now I’m just gonna very briefly mentioned that of course, you’ve got the classic freedom versus tyranny dichotomy going on in this film, which is exactly how President Truman had explained the situation that America found itself in 1947. So it’s no accident. And of course, in 1950, when Quo was being shot, as you mentioned, this is where we see the ramping up of the anti communist crusades within America, the second red scare 1947 had been the first round. That was when we had the Hollywood 10. People like Dalton Trumbo being on trial, but because they did string out their defence for such a long period of time, and it put everything on pause, and so no one else had really been charged. But 1951 is when we’re really going to see that whole more classic, I think, better known part of the second Red Scare taking place, which is where you see a lot of people go down. You see a lot of people doing the whole naming names or not naming names.

Dr G 21:27
Yeah. Well, I mean, on naming names, I mean, that feeds in quite nicely to ideas about the deletores in ancient Rome. Fun. Also, there is this film does a very good job of having the people which could be construed through a communist lens, if you wanted to. Yeah, really quite far removed from anything that’s going on. Yeah, they kind of at the peripheral, and we only see them through the perspective of Nero. And essentially, yeah, they’re a mob. And again, I think it’s meant to be very Mussolini and Hitler is key. Yeah. But any, there’s no focus on like farming or like the idea of like, well, a quasi proletariat that emerges out of the agrarian society, you know, all of those sort of, like classic elements of Yeah, that could build a foundation for a communist narrative within a Christian narrative. Yeah. None of that is happening.

Dr Rad 22:23
They were very self conscious about it. The 1951 campaign book for Quo Vadis, said, this movie, the fact that was being made, it’s basically like the world could well use the message of quo and the dark days are threatening us. The storyline cries out a creative non violence and adjust resistance to a godless aggression. Take that Stalin. Yeah. So whilst whilst Nero was meant to be somewhat, I think Mussolini and Hitler. So there’s also these stolen Soviet things happening.

Dr G 22:55
Take a bad guy, put your Nero on stage and you’re done and dusted. Yeah.

Dr Rad 22:59
And again, very briefly going to mention of course, this comes back to the fact as well that religion in this time period for America, it’s a patriotic thing. It’s about American godliness triumphing over the godless communists.

Dr G 23:15
Yeah, it is one of these really interesting characteristics of 20th century America, where the there’s a tacit freedom of religion, like it, or maybe even a spoken freedom of religion. But when they embrace religion, it is very much a very particular type of Christianity. And that Christian symbolism is imbued into a lot of their public symbolism.

Dr Rad 23:41
Yeah and I think I think it’s also worth mentioning with Quo Vadis, in particular, that Robert Taylor, and Louis B. Mayer, who was the MGM chief executive, and MGM made this film were both friendly witnesses, which basically means that they volunteer their information. And we’re very cooperative in supplying details about the inner workings of Hollywood for the committee, and they both had got involved with us and testified really early on in 1947.

Dr G 24:12
He’s not so good looking to me now.

Dr Rad 24:14
I know. So Robert Taylor, I’m gonna tell you a little bit about Robert Taylor.

Dr G 24:16
Yeah, please.

Dr Rad 24:17
So he was part of this right wing group called The Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals. They had been the ones that had actually invited the house on American activities to come to Hollywood and investigate Hollywood specifically because they were worried about his communist propaganda and co working in the industry. So Robert Taylor is a part of that. Now, Louis B. Mayer, I kind of feel like he’s one of those guys. I’ve talked about in a previous episode, where I think he’s just concerned about like, protecting his business.

Dr G 24:50
Yeah, fair enough. Things have gonna run guys.

Dr Rad 24:53
Yeah, absolutely. Now, Robert Taylor was married to Barbara Stanwyck. Okay, now they share had an interest in conservative politics?

Dr G 25:02
Well, I mean, it’s a solid foundation for our marriage, I suspect.

Dr Rad 25:06
Yeah. He’s the only big studio star to name names in an open session to HUAC.

Dr G 25:13
Wow.

Dr Rad 25:14
Yeah. And they use his initial testimony to publicise your work. And Robert Taylor had no idea that this was going to happen. He was furious about this basically, like, basically,

Dr G 25:28
Did that ruin his career?

Dr Rad 25:29
No, but I don’t think I don’t think he’s a well known name. Now, let’s put it that way. Yeah, certainly, he just wants out of politics after this, but he kind of has no choice because he is a studio star and MGM is like, you are going to testify, they specifically want him to testify in order to present a strong front with Mayor about this film they had made called the song of Russia. Now that was made at the time when the alliance between the allies and Russia was first being formed to try and promote this, you know, during World War Two.

Dr G 26:08
So he’s got a vested interest in perhaps coming forward and coming forward openly. In order to counterbalance some of that, I think he

Dr Rad 26:15
was incredibly reluctant to name names. And yet he is kind of forced into it. The sad thing is that his appearance was a massive deal. And it’s possible that these 1950s HUAC hearings became a big deal, because of Robert Taylor, because he was a big star at the time.

Dr G 26:32
Wow.

Dr Rad 26:34
So I just thought that was worth noting, because whilst we’ve talked about some of the other Cold War connections to some of the other films, the fact that this one comes about at this particular time with these particular people.

Dr G 26:46
Yeah, really, really interesting.

Dr Rad 26:48
Yeah. I mean, obviously, like we’re talking about 1951 hearings that yeah, obviously being the year of release of Quo Vadis but it would have been filmed before then, but I think everyone obviously knew that HUAC was in their midst because of the Hollywood 10. So yeah,

Dr G 27:05
yeah. It’s not necessarily something that’s clouding the performance of actors in this film with each other. But it’s definitely going to have an effect after

Dr Rad 27:13
I yeah, I just I just think it’s it makes I think Quo Vadis, even more interesting to me contextually, like this kind of stuff. And I, I kind of feel sorry for Taylor in a way that you know, you wouldn’t expect me to necessarily because I hate people who name names. I hate people who are on the right. Politics. Now. I shouldn’t say I hate right wing politics. But yeah, I kind of feel like his. He’s often a person, you’ll see, as you’ll hear, like a soundbite from him, or you’ll see an image of him testifying. And you don’t necessarily have the nuance of exactly how his appearance came to be in front of us exactly how he was used. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it seems like something he would do. But he I’m not saying

Dr G 27:53
But there might be some more complications.

Dr Rad 27:54
I think it’s the more complicated factors there. So yeah, I just thought that was interesting, given him being the title role and all so yeah. Anywho, you want to talk about Nero?

Dr G 28:03
Nero. Yeah. Look, I mean, there’s a lot of things that you could say about neuro in this film. And I mean, I’ve said some of those things already, in terms of like the performance and stuff like that. I think this is the kind of film it’s off the same sort of stature in my mind as something like “I, Claudius” in the way that it kind of sets people up to think that there is a very simple read for this period of Rome’s history. And it’s because the performance is so good. Yeah. And because the things that happened, some of these events are verifiable. That was a fire in Rome. It did happen during the late period of Nero’s reign. He did have a rebuilding programme. There are some sources that benefited. Definitely, there are some sources that talk about his connection with the Christians. Yeah. All of that is true. Yes. Now this narrative, this particular film makes it seem like there that is a really smooth story that we can understand Nero and his reign and how it comes to an end. And I would urge you, as a human with an interest in history to keep in mind that this is a film that is so persuasive. But there are some real questions to be asked about the source material for this period and what they might be trying to do with Nero. He is the last of the Julio-Claudians. This is an end point in the first dynasty of Roman imperial power. Yeah, it has ended badly. There’s lots of good reasons for it ending badly and there are a lot of people with their noses out of joint by the way that the Julio-Claudians have developed over time, so there’s lots of people in a position to write really negative histories as well. And that some of the source material that is survived and come down to us.

Dr Rad 30:05
Yes.

Dr G 30:06
Does this mean that he was terrible and all bad? Probably not. But the stories that we do have a pretty horrifying I don’t think I’m not going to excuse things like domestic violence, which leads to complications of a pregnancy which leads to death. You know, all of that is terrible. But this film does make it an easy package to swallow and just be like Nero was this crazy manipulative human being. And we that’s all we can say about him.

Dr Rad 30:36
Yeah. And I completely agree, because this is the thing I agree with you I don’t think Nero probably was a great person, let’s face it. He grew up with a mother who was probably quite rightly traumatised, and paranoid. He grew up in a family that was even worse. And he was only a teenager when he came to power. And whilst teenagers weren’t really a thing in ancient Rome, I certainly don’t think his brain was fully mature.

Dr G 31:01
They do have a classification for the young man as a young person the “adulescens” which teenager sort of comes out of that string. And that that isn’t a period that goes up to the age of 25.

Dr Rad 31:01
Yes. Is that as I mean, the Romans know that youth equals trouble.

Dr G 31:15
Yeah, they do see them as useful. And they position them as such. And certainly, all of the Republican positions are set up to be open and available to people who are beyond that age group.

Dr Rad 31:28
Yeah, absolutely. But this exactly, I think, yes, I think there was a problematic person. I think some of the stuff that’s come down to us is most likely true, like the fact that he was behind the murder of Agrippina, and that he probably was responsible for the death of Octavia and Poppaea Sabina.

Dr G 31:45
It’s just good politics, isn’t it? Yeah. Gotta get rid of them rivals.

Dr Rad 31:49
However, as you said, there is this intriguing snippet from Josephus, where he says, there have been a great many who compose the history of Nero, some of which have departed from the truth of facts out of favour, as having received benefits from him, while others out of hatred to him and the great ill will which they bear him have so impudently raved against him with their lies that they justly deserve to be condemned. So seeming to imply that there were positive accounts out there, they weren’t necessarily any more trustworthy, but they were there. And like, the fact that none of this seems to have come down to us is staggering. So definitely, I think there were some people who were more in favour of Nero, the people of room seem to have been a bit more fond of Nero than I think the elite of Rome were.

Dr G 32:36
Yeah. And this is something that the film tends not to capture yet is he does seem to have been quite well loved, for most of his rule by the people of the city, not necessarily the leads, but like the man on the street kind of thing. Yes. And definitely he’s rebuilding programme, or post fire. Yes, does a lot of sort of accommodation of people who have lost their homes and things like that. So there are elements of good leadership mixed in amongst the the horror stories. And yeah, the political mayhem.

Dr Rad 33:09
I think he was basically a very selfish person, which is no big surprise, and not particularly dedicated to rule at a time when Rome really needed him

Dr G 33:21
and also somebody who’s probably not that trusting now, given the situation that he’s grown up in, been surrounded by his whole life. So you know, somebody who is naturally suspicious.

Dr Rad 33:21
I mean, he’s his own father, supposedly, ran over children in the street just kicks. So yeah. But again, you don’t know whether that’s actually true, or whether that’s just trying to trash talk his reputation, because Nero turned out to be so horrible, but again, you gotta wonder, like, has to come from somewhere. But definitely, I think it’s worth mentioning when we talk about a film like Quo Vadis. Our sources are actually fairly clear, I think, at least in terms of reliable sources that Nero was not responsible for the fire.

Dr G 34:02
No, the evidence suggests he wasn’t in Rome. So the film does get that right interestingly.

Dr Rad 34:08
Yeah, he’s not personally responsible.

Dr G 34:10
You didn’t Yeah, he wasn’t there, like, you know, with a little match, throwing it onto the bonfire. But he wasn’t there. So it seems unlikely. Also, despite the fact that there’s this building programme afterwards, I don’t think there are many people who believe that they he anticipated the fire or created the fire in order to produce this buildingwork. Well, yeah. Like there’s plenty of space already. If he buys a private property on the Palatine to do the kinds of things he wants to do.

Dr Rad 34:40
Yeah, again, I think he’s just a bit selfish in the way he goes about some of the rebuilding, and therefore it makes people suspicious, which does make him turn to the Christians are scapegoats. Like that’s one thing that yes, you can say, yep, Nero deserves to be blamed for that. Again, the sources I think, are fairly clear that he does pinpoint the Christians as a group that he can target because nobody

Dr G 35:01
cares about them. Yeah. And this is political expedience at its worst. Yes, exactly.

Dr Rad 35:07
Although he’s so horrible to them. I mean, I believe one of the punishments is that, and again, it’s kind of like that poetic justice things that the Romans like every now and then he likes the city of Rome by setting the Christians on fire.

Dr G 35:21
Oh, yeah. So like, this is like the classic source reference where it’s like, you know, he lights up Rome with Christians bodies. Yes. Yeah. And that’s pretty disgusting. If true.

Dr Rad 35:31
Exactly. Like it could be exaggeration, of course, or whatever. But certainly the idea that people I think it testament says, Look, nobody really cared about the Christians until Nero started to persecute them so horribly. And well, then people started to go, Hmm, that is really awful, even by our standards, so I don’t think they were like, Oh, we love the Christians. But it’s more the idea of people started to feel even more simple. People started feeling sympathetic.

Well, they suddenly registered that these people were around to being like, Oh, I didn’t know that they were here. They were really copying. That doesn’t seem okay.

Yeah, definitely. So I thought one final thing I might end on finances very long episode. But such a long movie. It’s so hard not to just like

Dr G 36:14
we’re not even up to the halfway point of the film yet.

Dr Rad 36:17
Yeah, I know. I thought we had to also maybe register, maybe Petronius. Yes, as a real figure. And I also wanted to highlight Lygia’s adoptive mother Pomponia Grecia. Yeah.

Dr G 36:29
Oh, I haven’t looked into her.

Dr Rad 36:31
Well, okay. There is actually a passage about her, she was loosely connected to the Julio-Claudians like, she’s not super something in the inner circle. But as more of them die, her connection probably becomes more significant. She actually does seem to have been rumoured to be a Christian, there is a passage preserved in Tacitus, which talks about her being accused of a alien superstition, which has been taken to mean Christianity. And that having to be dealt with in like a private family disciplinary sort of way.

Dr G 37:01
I feel like this is a testament to our original author’s research. Surely,

Dr Rad 37:06
I know. And so I just thought I thought it was worth mentioning that because we’ve said some stuff about other female characters, and you might not think that she actually is based on a real person.

Dr G 37:14
Yeah, I just assumed that she was made up for the film. No, no, she’s not.

Dr Rad 37:17
And and also, she apparently, very publicly will morning as a statement when one of her relatives, a female that Messalina was jealous off was bumped off. So she was kind of like, daring, you know, but Claudius refused to punish her for obviously making like a bit of a statement about miscellaneous behaviour, what she was doing. So she’s kind of an interesting character. And the way that she has been represented in different versions is quite different. Like, if you go back to the 1925 version, I think that’s where you see more of a storyline about her being caught up in persecution, and managing to escape through her mother’s love, because her child is like, about to watch her be executed. And again, that seems maybe a little bit tying into like, the fascist ideology about motherhood and like, once mention her, but also Petronius I thought he was maybe a fun note to end on.

Dr G 38:09
Yeah, look, Petronius I mean, he is he is a figure that gets sort of like bandied about in this period. But because he’s lampooned and to see Petronius brought to life in a way that is quite intelligent, quite serious. But then being there’s, there’s kind of like a visual homage to the satire that he is generally known for in the final feast, which I quite enjoyed. And I was like, well, well, this is where it gets dramatic, isn’t it.

Dr Rad 38:39
Yeah, I think he might have been the author of this work, which we now call the Satyricon, which is a bizarre work and we don’t have it in its complete form. Of course, we never do. But one of as you say, like the key moments is like the feasts. Yeah. At the house of Trimalchio who I think is a freedman, right.

Dr G 38:39
I can’t remember,

Dr Rad 39:01
Okay, yeah, he’s maybe he’s meant to be this like lower class person who’s aping the upper class. Yeah, he’s got money. He’s really trying. He’s aspirational. Yeah. And so Trimalchio is supposedly partly meant to be inspired by Nero, which is maybe one of the reasons why he is found himself in hot water. Because he does end up getting caught up in these conspiracies in Nero’s reign, as far as we can tell, like the real historical character. So I think it’s, it is interesting the way that he as you say, is turned into like, kind of like the conscience sweet like, like a weird.

Dr G 39:39
He kind of becomes this figure that Nero bounces off and Petronius provides this opportunity just just to gently nudge him in a slightly different direction.

Dr Rad 39:50
Yeah. And he does have like the real Petronius did have official positions as we’d be fit. A man of his status. You know, he does servers console and that sort of thing. And he apparently had this title amongst Nero’s inner circle that he was the arbiter of elegance, oh, which I think has been very much played upon in this particular adaptation. He’s not always as likeable because there is this whole another subplot romance between him and one of his slave girls. Eunice.

Dr G 40:25
Oh, yes, yeah.

Dr Rad 40:26
And in this film, it’s kind of

Dr G 40:28
why is that subplot even there?

Dr Rad 40:30
Oh, well, it gets a lot more disturbing another version, okay. In some versions, I can’t remember which one, but there’s a version where apparently, he orders units to be beaten for something she’s done wrong. And it’s while she’s being beaten that he realises he’s in love with her too. Because the whole storyline is that Eunice is in love with him to a point that is like the range.

Dr G 40:51
Yeah, this is I mean, the Euncie subplot, everyone doesn’t make any sense. I’m like, again, this is one of those

Dr Rad 40:57
It’s drawn from the novel.

Dr G 40:58
Yeah, it’s one of these sort of classic like, it’s, there’s no women in the writers room, you know?

Dr Rad 41:04
Yeah.

Dr G 41:04
And it’s like they’re under what circumstances would a slave just be like kissing the statue of the of their own? No. And it’s like, there’s we’re giving no rationale for why she might be interested in him now,

Dr Rad 41:18
apart from the fact that he seems to be like, super intelligent.

Dr G 41:22
But she doesn’t.

Dr Rad 41:23
It’s weird. It’s weird, because he’s so refined in this film. And yet this, the Satyricon is like, it’s so gross, like, ,

Dr G 41:30
Well and I think this is one of the things where, like, the parallel that you might see with the historical Petronius, and the sort of the satirical one is that the way that things are written, and that, that idea of being very good with words, being very clever. And then we have Petronius is final letter to Nero, where is like six where he reveals the truth and like, I always thought you were a subpar singer. Yeah. It’s like, I would never want to hear anything come out of your lips ever again. You know? Yeah. All of this kind of stuff. So he gets to this moment where he does the reveal. Yeah. When he knows he’s going to take his own life. He’s already got that planned out. Yeah. And to me, that’s the kind of the literary echo coming in of like, you know, the person who’s got that incisive way with language.

Dr Rad 42:22
Yeah and it’s, it’s interesting, though, as well there in terms of characterization, because Petronius is really the only person who’s a Roman, who is sympathetic, but never becomes Christian. He is sympathetic to the Christians.

Dr G 42:40
Are you telling me that Tigellinus is not sympathetic? There’s only one man with a moustache in this film who is also a Roman.

Dr Rad 42:48
Whip out some wax as well. Yeah, no, exactly. He’s easy, only Roman who doesn’t convert to Christianity, even though he might be kind of trying to temper Nero’s actions with the Christians, but that seems to be more because he’s concerned about Rome’s reputation like, and ridiculous as you say, like it’s not really like, because he cares so much for these people. But yet he is the only person who doesn’t convert. You know, so it’s just it’s just inevitable. Yeah, it is easy these sorts of films and that sort of thing happens. All right. Finish up on a very light note. Let’s talk about the promotion of Quo Vadis I have mentioned this before but Quo Vadis really takes the cake.

Dr G 43:31
Okay, how did they promote this film?

Dr Rad 43:33
How do you sell a film like Quo Vadis? Well, of course, you know, there’s lots of tie in products.

Dr G 43:40
Look, I would you take that shot from the film where they’ve recreated Leonardo da Vinci’s The Last Supper, part by part and put it on a postcard and be like, do you want to see how it happened? Yeah. Because we bring it to life.

Dr Rad 43:54
Obviously, there’s the usual stuff like you shop windows and that kind of stuff. But there was also a real estate company that use the shot of nearer pointing to the model of Rome. They used it to sell houses Chris mana I’m looking at you. They also sold raincoats, sports shirts, wallpaper, tablecloth, flippers, pyjamas, boxer shorts, tie clips, and my favourite one. Fire Insurance.

Dr G 44:28
Wallpaper?

Dr Rad 44:30
Yeah, no. And not only that, but they received the Pope’s blessing on the directors copy of the script.

Dr G 44:38
Wow. Yeah. Well, you know once the Pope has blessed the script, I think you’re good to go.

Dr Rad 44:43
Yeah, I think so. And I think that’s a perfect note on which to end this very long episode. But you know what, for long film guys, what can I say? recommend that you go and see it? Yeah, definitely – look Peter Ustinov alone is worth it. Thank you for listening to this special ed said of The Partial Historians. We’d like to thank all of our patrons for their support and allowing us to make these additional episodes, especially Nick, who’s specifically requested Quo Vadis. This has been part two of two episodes on Quo Vadis. And so that’s a wrap folks. Our sources and credits can be found on our website. And as a side note, if you’d like to learn more about Robert Taylor and his involvement with HUAC, we suggest you check out one of our major sources for this episode, which is the fabulous you must remember this podcast which has a whole series on the blacklist including an entire episode dedicated to Robert Taylor, and his wife, Barbara Stanwyck. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part Two appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

This episode, we are dealing with 422 and 421 BCE. The previous year had been a very dramatic for Rome. They seem to have come perilously close to a disastrous military defeat. Luckily, they had the four horsemen on their side…

“The Four Horsemen” is our affectionate name for the group of cavalry commanders who dismounted and led the Roman army on foot when everything turned against them during the battle against the Volsci in 423 BCE. The most notable amongst them was a plebeian hero Sextus Tempanius.

In 422 BCE, these men were elected to serve as plebeian tribunes. But will they continue to be exalted by the Roman people? Or will they demand change from the patricians and become just as troublesome as many of their predecessors?

Join us as we explore the fallout from the Volscian conflict.

Episode 138 – The Four Horsemen

Need a more detailed recap of Sempronius’ misdeeds? Check out our previous episode on 423 BCE.

The “Horses of Saint Mark”, also known as the “Triumphal Quadriga” or “Horses of the Hippodrome of Constantinople”. The bronze sculptures are thought to date to the second or third centuries CE and modelled on much earlier statues from classical Greece c. fourth century BCE. The precise date is uncertain. Photo credit to Tteske via Wikimedia Commons.

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of Pixabay and Orange Free Sounds.

Dr Rad 0:16
Welcome to The Partial Historians,

Dr G 0:19
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:12
And I am Dr. G. And we are following the history of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 1:19
Boy, are we and you know what? We’re getting so close to 100 years of the Republic.

Dr G 1:25
Maybe we should do a special episode 100 year reap recap on the early republic.

Dr Rad 1:29
Totally doable. It’s only taken us what seven years to get here. That’s gonna be fine. Yeah, stay tuned. Watch this space. Yeah. So Dr G, in our grand narrative of Rome’s history. Last episode, we were up to 423 BCE, and it was actually kind of a memorable year.

Dr G 1:47
Yeah, some things happened, particularly with Sempronius Atratinus, who was one of the consuls for that year.

Dr Rad 1:55
He was groped into waging a military campaign, and it didn’t go so well for him against the Volscian strategy.

Dr G 2:04
And he seems to have come into a bit of a cropper with the cavalry in some regard, maybe not paying attention to where they are maybe getting cut off from them. Yeah. And anyway, one of the military tribunes saves the day, Tempanius.

Dr Rad 2:17
Yeah, one of the cavalry decuriones.

Dr G 2:21
I love a good decurio.

Dr Rad 2:22
Yeah, yeah, he is the saviour of the day. And it really looked for a second like Rome was going to be slaughtered. And instead Tampanius Very unusual name managed to turn the tide, at least to the extent that it was a draw, that it was safe to run away, and find a nice place to get another day as they like to say so. And then, of course, when they got back, everyone was like, what happened out there and they tried to work Tempanius into testifying against Sempronius for like his gross incompetence, but he refused, Dr G. A man of honour through and through.

Dr G 3:00
And I think what we’re gonna see as a bit of foreshadowing for what’s coming up is some of the fallout from 423 in this year coming up.

Dr Rad 3:07
Yeah, I think the tribune of the plebs are gonna like walk away from such a ripe case of patrician incompetence. How could they?

Dr G 3:16
Stand firm tribunes of the plebs! Stand firm.

Dr Rad 3:20
Yeah. So, with that under our belts, let’s dive in to 422 BCE

Dr G 3:32
422 BCE! What are time to be alive for a Roman.

Dr Rad 3:37
Is it though? Do you have any source material?

Dr G 3:42
I mean, it’s been thin on the ground for a while. Let’s just say that the Fasti Capitolini has a little bit of information.

Dr Rad 3:52
Okay.

Dr G 3:53
I have a little excerpt from Valerius Maximus, which might be exactly the same excerpt as I had for the previous year.

Dr Rad 3:59
I was gonna say!

Dr G 4:00
Diodorus Siculus is missing. And Dionysius of Halicarnassus who can say who can say?

Dr Rad 4:07
Siculus is missing now?

Dr G 4:08
Well yeah, yeah.

Dr Rad 4:10
You know what, I’m starting to think that the sources aren’t missing, you’re just careless.

Dr G 4:16
I’ve decided to no longer prep for episodes. I’m just rocking up.

Dr Rad 4:20
Alright, well, with that in mind, shall we perhaps just start with the magistrates? And then I will give you what Livy has to offer.

Dr G 4:28
Yeah, yeah, I’m super excited. So what I’ve tried to do to compensate for my absolute lack of source material is, first of all, consult Broughton, who has the list of who’s in what position is the year that we even have any idea about-

Dr Rad 4:40
Raunchy.

Dr G 4:43
Me and Broughton. I mean, it might be 1950, but I’m happy. And from that point onwards, I might just interject every now and then with a little bit of tidbit about names.

Dr Rad 4:56
You know, my Latin is subpar. So let’s do it.

Dr G 5:02
Alright, so we’ve got some military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 5:06
Okay.

Dr G 5:07
Sometimes you might hear if these, listeners, as referred to as “consular tribunes”, that’s fine. Those two titles are interchangeable. We’ve got Lucius Manlius Capitolinus. We’ve got Quintus Antonius Merenda. And Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.

Dr Rad 5:27
You got my hopes that for a second there, Dr. G, when you said that we had military tribunes with consular power, and yet, I feel like every name on that list is patrician.

Dr G 5:37
Yes, yeah. Although Antonius is a plebeian name, so Quintus Antonius Merenda, “Antonius” is a plebeian gens,

Dr Rad 5:46
Right.

Dr G 5:47
But there is like problems with this because our literary sources – unreliable though they may be and controversial for their record rejections into the past, etc, etc, all the usual caveats. The feeling from the ground from those writers looking back at this period is that the first plebeian tribute with consular power doesn’t get elected until 400 BCE, so we’re a little ways away from that at the moment. Yeah, so who is this Antonius? I don’t know.

Dr Rad 6:18
Hmm. I wonder if he’s a distant relative of Mark Antony.

Dr G 6:22
Surely. Does he have the nose? Let’s check for the nose. So they are our military tribunes.

Dr Rad 6:30
Yeah.

Dr G 6:30
Then we’ve got a nice little list of tribunes of the plebs.

Dr Rad 6:35
I thought you might say this.

Dr G 6:36
Yeah. Which is pretty exciting. We’ve got a guy called Tiberius Antintius, so we’re expecting plebeian names in this section.

Dr Rad 6:43
For sure.

Dr G 6:44
Marcus Asellius. Tiberius Spurillius

Dr Rad 6:49
Sounds like a pasta

Dr G 6:49
or Spurillus.

Dr Rad 6:51
Less like a pasta.

Dr G 6:53
And a name that may be familiar to you, Sextus Tempanius.

Dr Rad 6:57
Well, of course, I mean, you know, he was the hero of the previous year, of course, he’s gonna wind up being a tribune of the plebs.

Dr G 7:03
The hero of the previous year now in charge on a political front, not a military front.

Dr Rad 7:08
There is a real pattern with these plebeians that rise to the top in our sources, and that is they have this moment in the sun and they always end up being a tribune afterwards.

Dr G 7:19
Yeah, it’s a classic crossover. It’s the – what would be the modern equivalent – the influencer to twitch host? I don’t know.

Nice

I’m not sure

Dr Rad 7:30
I didn’t even know what half those words meant. So good job.

Dr G 7:33
I’m not going to pretend I understand any more than what I just said. There are other notables for this year, obviously, Gaius Sempronius Atratinus, consul of the previous year, is going to have a bit of a feature, and somebody called Lucius Hortensius. And you may think to yourself, well, you might know what’s going on the narrative. I’ve got no idea what’s going on with Hortensius in the narrative. But apparently, this guy is also a plebeian, or at least that’s what the name suggests.

Dr Rad 8:04
It does. It does.

Dr G 8:06
But I’ll go into the etymology of that later.

Dr Rad 8:09
Good. Good, because I also have something to say about that name. Okay, so the narrative of all of this, whilst the consuls are away, the plebeians decide to elect this array of tribunes, according to Livy. So this is where we get our Tempanius, our Asellius, our Antistius, and our Spurillus, okay. Now, all of these men, not just Tempanius had allegedly been chosen to lead the cavalry, when they had been forced to dismount from their horses and therefore quite frankly, become infantry against the Volscians.

Dr G 8:43
So all of these troops and some of the plebs are former cavalry leaders? Okay.

Dr Rad 8:49
Yeah

Dr G 8:49
Oh boy.

Dr Rad 8:50
In fact-

Unknown Speaker 8:51
The four horsemen

Dr Rad 8:51
I was gonna say, the four horsemen.

Dr G 8:53
Is there an apocalypse coming to Rome.

Dr Rad 8:55
It was almost an apocalypse, let’s be honest. So, I have actually looked into this a little bit. And the commentary that I’m consulting Ogilvie says that this is such a weird detail for Livy to have included it must be true.

Dr G 9:12
So strange.

Dr Rad 9:13
Yeah, I think I think he’s referring to the whole idea of obviously them, you know, dismounting and being chosen to lead in some capacity. And that would make sense because Tempanius couldn’t possibly I don’t think have been the only person who was in charge of the cavalry that particular day.

Dr G 9:29
Ah, he was the only one who turns up in the story.

Dr Rad 9:31
Until this moment, Dr G. And he was surrounded by people anyway. The senate sensed – because they’ve so got their finger on the pulse of the people – but there’s some negativity in Rome after the whole Sempronius affair.

Dr G 9:47
The vibes are off

Dr Rad 9:48
The vibes are off. And they’re like you know what? Let’s just not have consuls. It’ll make them feel better.

Dr G 9:58
I mean, we’ll just put patricians in power. But not consular power.

Dr Rad 10:03
That would be an insult too great. Salt, wounds, bad idea. So they decide instead on military tribunes with consular powers and it’s thus that we get the names that you mentioned earlier, some of which are very familiar like Capitolinus.

Dr G 10:21
Capitolinus is a pretty familiar name. We’ve come across those a few times. This is the first time I think we’ve come across an Antonius Merenda

Dr Rad 10:27
Agreed, that is a weird name.

Dr G 10:29
But Lucius Papirius Mugillanus, he was consul in 427.

Dr Rad 10:34
Totally,

Dr G 10:35
And seems to have been related to a guy who was consul in 443 and another Papirius.

Dr Rad 10:42
Yeah, we’ve heard the name Papirius. We’ve definitely heard Mugillanus before.

Dr G 10:46
Yeah, so there is also a generational legacy here where it’s like there is a flow through of patricians from certain famines coming into power, apparently, according to our sources.

Dr Rad 10:56
Yeah. And therefore, this makes it an entirely meaningless gesture on behalf.

Dr G 11:03
Put all our friends into power to keep you happy. Are you happy?

Dr Rad 11:07
We’ll just label it differently. Anyway, so at the start of the year, one of the tribune of the plebs, who was not mentioned as being part of the Four Horsemen gang – Lucius Hortensius – decides he’s going to go after Gaius Sempronius, the idiot of the previous year who had been such a terrible commander, take the floor, Dr. G.

Dr G 11:30
So Lucius Hortensius is also a tribune of the plebs?

Dr Rad 11:33
He is, but he’s not from the original gang.

Dr G 11:37
Okay, so he’s not one of these four horsemen

Dr Rad 11:40
He is not.

Dr G 11:42
And this may explain why he’s doing the prosecution, because he represents a slightly different political faction, maybe?

Dr Rad 11:48
Oh, he definitely does. Like there’s a whole narrative around this, but I thought you might want to say something about his name.

Dr G 11:54
Yeah, I do. I do. Yes. So the temptation is always to be like, Hortensius, it must come from “hortus” “garden”.

Dr Rad 12:03
Ah!

Dr G 12:04
Yeah, a beautiful Latin word

Dr Rad 12:06
Didn’t even occur to me because my Latin is so poor.

Dr G 12:08
But that is apparently not where this name comes from. It is thought to come from an ancient Roman town called Hortense or Hortenses.

Dr Rad 12:18
Okay.

Dr G 12:20
That is somewhere in central Italy. But, sadly, location unconfirmed.

Dr Rad 12:26
Typical. Well, I have a little bit more to add to that, which is that although the name Hortensius probably sounds very familiar to you, and I, because this family becomes quite well known in the later Republic.

Dr G 12:41
These – this family will make a reappearance. This particular Hortensius seems to be the earliest mention of a Hortensius we get in our sources, but scholarship generally discounts this guy as being real.

Dr Rad 12:55
I was gonna say, to say, I know how you feel when I say that these people aren’t real. Is that to make reality? You know, bend. But yeah, there is no other Hortensius mentioned in the sources for hundreds of years.

Dr G 13:09
Yeah. So scholars tend to err on the side of caution here and be like, this guy might not be real.

Dr Rad 13:17
Well, I mean, especially because we know what the Romans are like with their names.

Dr G 13:21
Well, yeah. So the Romans have this idea, much like in the way that they assume people’s characters based on their their appearance. They also assume character based on family. So there’s this idea that there’s hereditary elements of personality that come through. So the acts of this guy might be just a retrojection of the sorts of things that Hortensii are thought to do later on.

Dr Rad 13:46
Yes. Well, the interesting thing is there will eventually be a connection between the Sempronii and the Hortensii in the later Republic. So it’s possible that the reason this particular name has been selected is because there’s this interesting thing happening –

Dr G 14:06
Are you telling me this is all just foreshadowing?

Dr Rad 14:10
Foreshadow, foreshadow. I was like, for centuries for centuries. Okay, so what basically ends up happening in Livy’s account is that the four horsemen (of the apocalypse, I can’t stop it) beg Hortensius not to persecute Sempronius.

Dr G 14:26
He’s our man. We love him. Just doing his best. It was really tough thing. You weren’t there on the battlefield. You didn’t see how this was going down? How dare you step in? He’s not incompetent. He tried his best – it was difficult circumstances. And we know we didn’t prepare before the battle, but it’s not his fault. It’s not his fault!

Dr Rad 14:42
That’s exactly what they say. Literally word for word. Like it’s just bad luck. Anybody could have bad luck on a battlefield. It’s a battlefield, man. You weren’t there. You didn’t see.

Dr G 14:52
The plan is only as good as the first moment of combat.

Dr Rad 14:55
Yeah.

Dr G 14:56
Shhh, we didn’t have a plan.

Dr Rad 14:58
We were fighting at midnight. I mean, sure by then it’ll all gone to hell. But come on!

Dr G 15:03
You can’t even see what you’re doing under those conditions.

Dr Rad 15:05
It is black as night. The enemy just appeared out of nowhere man. Anyway Hortensius refuses to give way. He’s like, nah man, I don’t believe any of it. I think you’re just worried about the appearance of all of this. You’re just thinking about the optics.

Dr G 15:25
Oh, well, these guys are definitely thinking about the optics. This is where Valerius Maximus ends up going.

Dr Rad 15:30
Okay, tell me about the optics.

Dr G 15:32
The optics are that these four who are the tribunes of the plebs – not Hortensius – get together and they’re like, oh, no, if you’re going to persecute and prosecute Sempronius, we’re going to turn up every day at the rostra in mourning. Wearing mourning garb as an intense performative display of loyalty for the man who was and shall always be our commander.

Dr Rad 15:58
Exactly. I mean, the loyalty is bizarre, because I swear, there’s like-

Dr G 16:02
It did sound like they really lost that battle. And it was just a nightmare.

Dr Rad 16:05
Exactly. And I don’t see I don’t have there is no mention of any personal connection between these men before this particular battle.

Dr G 16:15
Look, just because we don’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

Dr Rad 16:18
This is true, but also, wouldn’t you mention if it was? Anyway Sempronius is clearly counting on the other tribunes using their veto to stop anything bad from happening to him. However, Hortensius calls him out. You’re hiding behind the tribunes! How dare you? What kind of ex-consul are you anyway? Hortensius also turns to the Four Horsemen and says, So what are you going to do? What are you going to do if I continue after Sempronius? Are you just going to undermine the whole idea of the tribunate? How’s that gonna work out for you and all the other random people, if you guys undermine this position that we all hold as tribune of the plebs seems like you’re going to be stripping the people of their rights, am I right?

Dr G 17:14
I don’t know if this feels logical to me. But please continue.

Dr Rad 17:18
Well, the tribune say, We certainly did not intend to overrule whatever the people decide. They’re allowed to vote on things. However – and this is where your story comes in – if you’re going to ignore our pleas for Sempronius’ wellbeing then we are just going to dress in mourning, and as like a show of solidarity, as he’s like, our dad.

Dr G 17:49
Oh, wow.

Dr Rad 17:49
Because he was our commander.

Dr G 17:53
Oh, no, mixing up filial piety with the command structure of the military forces. This is getting messy.

Dr Rad 18:02
I know. It’s really sickening. Now Hortensius, is convinced by this. Yeah, he’s like, okay, okay, put the morning away. We don’t need to get unpleasant.

Dr G 18:13
Let’s not get emotional about it.

Dr Rad 18:16
We don’t need to get fabric involved. Sempronius is free to go. I’m not going to touch him. Because if you guys are so dedicated to him, then he must be worth it. And I was wrong the whole time.

Dr G 18:32
This is – I mean -it just feels the whole thing feels implausible. What kind of story is this?

Dr Rad 18:38
The endnote is the best part because everyone is for once thrilled with the tribune of the plebs – all of them. They’re like, You know what you guys were like super loyal and dedicated. And you, Hortensius, showed yourself to be flexible, reasonable, logical. I think I’ve ever had such a high rating. It’s like five stars across the board for all of the tribunes.

Dr G 19:05
You guys haven’t agreed at all, but you got there in the end.

Dr Rad 19:07
Yeah.

Dr G 19:07
Good job.

Dr Rad 19:08
Yeah. Now, this is where things get really weird in Livy’s account, because it’s like he, most people agree that he abruptly switches his source material, like the main source that he’s consulting, one of the earliest sources. But the one thing that kind of does stay similar all throughout this little next period, is that it seems that maybe Livy’s is dwelling on a theme of moderatio. And this would be a good moment to flag that obviously, because everyone’s being, well, reasonably reasonable. You know.

Dr G 19:46
I don’t think our four horsemen are necessarily demonstrating any moderatio. Like all they’ve done is step up each time. Yeah, and gone. Well, if you’re going to do that, I’m going to do this

Dr Rad 19:59
I guess. I guess

Dr G 20:00
But Hortensius has apparently shown some moderatio.

Dr Rad 20:05
Yeah, he has. I don’t know that everybody is, as you say, but I guess you could say that the other tribunes kind of are in the sense that they don’t use their veto. They’re like we’ll make this a personal show of solidarity. A private-public protest if you will. Yes, anyway. And and now this is where it becomes like an abrupt shift because all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we’ve got this mansion of the Aequians coming in to claim some sort of victory over the Volscians. It seems really weird.

Dr G 20:37
Oh, so when the when the Romans ran away, the Aequians were their being like, Well, I see the Volscii are not quite ready.

Dr Rad 20:48
Well, I don’t even know if it’s like, you know, fresh combat, or if it’s actually what just happened.

Dr G 20:54
Wasn’t there some kind of – I didn’t know the Aequians were involved, but it seems like maybe they inserted themselves when the opportunity arose.

Dr Rad 21:01
I think they did. But also, I think Livy’s also just like, really quickly changed horses, and it doesn’t have the nice flow that I’ve come to expect from Livy’s narrative.

Dr G 21:13
Maybe, yeah, it sounds like Livy’s might be struggling.

Dr Rad 21:16
Indeed. And that’s where he ends the year, which is why it’s even stranger.

Dr G 21:21
P.S. the Aequians. The end.

Dr Rad 21:23
That’s basically what it reads like he’s like, Aequians, and we’re like, wait, what, have we talked about the Aequians? Anytime recently?

Dr G 21:30
Yeah, nothing in any of the material that I’ve been able to scrounge together in preparation has mentioned the Aequians.

Dr Rad 21:35
Exactly. And so without further ado, Dr. G. That means that I am ricocheting into 421 BCE.

Dr G 21:41
Oh, okay. Well, before we head into that direction, I’ll give you some lowdown on some the name Asellius. So we’ve got these tribune of the plebs. One of them is Marcus Asellius. Now, this is the only one for which there is more history attested for the family name.

Dr Rad 21:58
Okay.

Dr G 21:59
So, but not until the second century CE.

Dr Rad 22:04
Once again, we’ve got these later names.

Dr G 22:07
Yeah. So I think this is really interesting, because this is a family that crops up into prominence well after the source material that even we’re consulting. And but so this family is hanging around, but it seems that there are long threads that go back quite a long way for that particular gens. And that is that’s it. That’s my other my other little tidbit of detail.

Dr Rad 22:32
Love it.

Dr G 22:32
And I’m ready to move on

Dr Rad 22:33
I would not have known that without you. And that’s the whole point of the fixes.

Alright, so 421 BCE. We’re back to consuls, I’m afraid.

Dr G 22:42
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Look, my source material. I’m glad you asked.

Dr Rad 22:48
I didn’t. I just assumed.

Dr G 22:52
Didorus Siculus – still missing.

Dr Rad 22:54
Right. Yeah.

Dr G 22:54
Dionysius of Halicarnassus? Missing.

Dr Rad 22:57
Yep.

Dr G 22:58
I’ve got a little bit of Festus.

Dr Rad 23:00
Yeah, so. There is a little bit of Festus that is relevant here. But I’ll let you take that.

Dr G 23:04
And I’ve also got a little bit of Tacitus’ Annals.

Dr Rad 23:07
Yes, I think I know you’re coming. But again, I’m not going to tread on your toes for that. I’m going to let you, I’m gonna let you take that. But do you want to tell us the names of the consuls for this year?

Dr G 23:16
All right. There’s some controversy.

Dr Rad 23:18
Okay.

Dr G 23:19
So it’s Gnaeus or Numerius

Dr Rad 23:22
That is what Livy prefers

Dr G 23:24
Yeah, but nobody else prefers that really. So but we’ll come to that.

Dr Rad 23:29
Well, everyone else has disappeared. So I think they can take a flying leap.

Dr G 23:32
As a praenomen “Numerius” is a little bit a bit unusual.

Dr Rad 23:37
I’ll give you that.

Dr G 23:37
So Gnaeus or Numerius Fabius Vibulanus

Dr Rad 23:43
Definitely heard this name.

Dr G 23:45
Yeah. The Fabii. Well, one of our favourite gens-es at this point in time. Yeah. Well attested, yeah, dramatically, almost dead. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus.

Dr Rad 24:01
Definitely a name we recognise.

Dr G 24:04
Sound familiar.

Dr Rad 24:05
I mean, for heaven’s sakes, there’s just the previous year it was we’ve had a Capitolinus didn’t we?

Dr G 24:09
Yeah, yeah, the beardy ones.

Dr Rad 24:11
Yeah, I particularly like the way that Livy introduces this guy to me because he says the consuls are Numerius Fabius Vibulanus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus, the son of Capitolinus, and I was like, thanks so much for clearing that up Livy, it’s super clear now who this guy is and who he’s related to.

Dr G 24:28
Nothing quite like those details to really lock you into the narrative.

Dr Rad 24:31
Now, of course, we start in this random place that we finish where – by a lot – Fabius is chosen to be the commander against the Aequians. What?

Dr G 24:42
Well, fair enough.

Dr Rad 24:43
Like what is happening? but nothing is really achieved. So it’s not a glorious battle, because what happens is that Fabius goes off to war with the Aequians. The Aequians, having come in maybe claiming someone else’s victory. I don’t know what’s going on there. They also give a very half hearted effort against the Romans. And so the Romans just super easily managed to triumph over them. It’s a completely shameful defeat from the Aequians. You have to retreat and therefore Fabius is left with nothing to brag about.

Dr G 25:15
So, no triumph?

Dr Rad 25:16
No triumph, but he does get an ovatio (or an ovation), because he had somewhat helped to waft away the stench of Sempronius’ behaviour on the battlefield.

Dr G 25:32
You didn’t lose, and that was good.

Dr Rad 25:34
Yeah. And it wasn’t, you know, disastrous and shameful. We like that. Yeah. More of that.

Dr G 25:43
An ovatio is like a lesser triumph.

Dr Rad 25:46
Yeah, I mean, like, to be honest, it sounds like more than I feel like he deserved.

Dr G 25:49
Yeah, it is still quite a substantial celebration, but the commander walks through the city as part of the procession, rather than being in a chariot.

Dr Rad 25:56
Yes. Obviously, walking in

Dr G 26:00
Walking is not as prestigious.

Dr Rad 26:02
It’s really not. So it’s a bit of a win. But I think everyone feels very ambivalent about this, because everyone is expecting more from the Aequians. Although we certainly didn’t, because the Aequians seem to be randomly placed. So they do. Yeah, it’s it just seems like such a non affair. But then, Dr. G, Mawhahaha the peace was shattered with unexpected and serious quarrels between the plebeians and the patricians. And to that I say, Livy, really? You don’t need to be Cassandra to see this one coming.

Dr G 26:36
I was like, unexpected, surprising?

Dr Rad 26:39
Like, surely this is the most predictable thing in the history of the world.

Dr G 26:44
It has been happening for a while, according even to Livy.

Dr Rad 26:47
Yeah. And of course, it could only happen over a truly hot button issue, which is the doubling of the quaestors.

Dr G 26:57
I wondered where this was going. I was like, is land allotment back on the agenda? No. Okay. Wait, I have a source for this. Excellent.

Dr Rad 27:05
Wait, before you go into it. Are you going to tell us what quaestors are, to begin with? Because we might need to remind people, it’s been a while since we mentioned them.

Dr G 27:12
I’m not sure that I am going to I mean, I, it’s tricky. Quaestors end up being in charge of things. Like, what the treasury?

Dr Rad 27:23
Yeah, like that. What they ended up being in charge of much like aediles is very little, like related to what they do now. Yeah, they are mentioned, actually all the way back in the regal period, as being in charge of helping out with cases of parricidum. So where a family member has killed a family member.

Dr G 27:42
See, I’m glad you’re here, because it’s like of all of the things I decided to look up looking at what the quaestors was did in the early republic was not one of them,

Dr Rad 27:50
Typically, of all the magistracices of this time period, we don’t really know what they do. But because they actually predate-

Yeah, they have a quasi legal function.

Yeah. And they are mentioned in the Twelve Tables. They are mentioned as the quaestores parridici no no, I know that

Dr G 28:10
Parricidium

Dr Rad 28:10
Para-kid-i-ii – quaestores parricidii! Yeah, I don’t know why I’m saying it in Italian

Dr G 28:18
Every time an Italian dies.

Dr Rad 28:18
I just had to do it.

Dr G 28:25
Right. I enjoyed it. So the quaestors. So yeah, we get Tacitus weirdly, as a source for this. This is a guy that’s writing in the like, early second century and late first century CE. So he’s like, you know, a while away, even from Livy, like, over a century later, definitely. And he talks about the quaestors going back to Brutus in 509 BCE. But also notes that two are added to take care of things at Rome, in 421 BCE. So the idea is that they were supposed to accompany the military chest. So that’s Tacitus’ read. So that’s a really interesting sort of progression for where the quaestorship is going to maybe end up.

Dr Rad 29:20
Exactly. Treasury money.

Dr G 29:21
Yeah, treasury and money. And so that’s where Tacitus is. And he’s like, Well, he assumes that in this very early period of the republic that they’ve had two, to look after the war booty essentially like, like the really precious stuff that’s picked up in the battlefield, the quaestors are in charge of like managing that and the security around that. Yeah. And then they decide in this moment that they need to more in Rome itself. Yes. I don’t know who’s been stealing the booty to suggest that that might be necessary.

Dr Rad 29:52
It’s not actually that per se. Basically how this all comes about, is that the consuls say there’s too much paperwork. And you know what? I’m sick of hearing the constant complaint about that. This has been like what?

Dr G 30:04
Red tape, man, red tape – all I want to do is go out and kill people with an army. Come on, come on, come on. I know round up, round up, round up.

Dr Rad 30:11
It’s like every job has a glamorous side and a not so glamorous side guys but anyway.

Dr G 30:16
Guys, I need a PA.

Dr Rad 30:18
Oh, they completely say that. They say, look, there’s a lot of conflict going on. We’re being drowned in admin.

Dr G 30:27
Between the levee; between having to like clean my own leather. It’s a nightmare, I tell you what.

Dr Rad 30:34
What I mean, quite frankly, look at Sempronius. Why didn’t he prepare? Too busy with admin.

Dr G 30:40
I just couldn’t get through the emails. The backlog was shocking.

Dr Rad 30:43
It was choking me. So they want two more quaestors because they just can’t cope. There’s just too many wars going on. And the Senate like totally, completely reasonable, of course, for a number that we need. Now the tribunes of course get wind of this. And they say, well, whoa, whoa, look, while we’re adding two quaestors. I mean, that would make a total of four. Why don’t we say that 50% have to be plebeian, because traditionally quaestors have always been patricians.

Dr G 31:14
Mm hmm. Well, cat amongst the pigeons right there.

Dr Rad 31:18
Well, it seems like a fairly simple request. But the consuls and the senate, of course, have their default reaction of, “I would rather die than see that happen.” And they put up a huge fight, absolutely refused. They’re like no way. No How. However, finally, they decided to make a compromise. They’re going to apply the same rule that they used for military tribunes with consular power, which is that the people can elect whoever they want, maybe to be patricians, maybe to be plebeians. Good luck. That compromise is rejected.

Dr G 31:57
Well, fair enough. I mean, we’ve yet to see any evidence of some real plebeians inside the military tribunate with consular power.

Dr Rad 32:05
Precisely. So they decide we’re just going to have to let go of the whole idea of having more quaestors. We’d rather like neither of us are going to have any more quaestors because we can’t agree where they’re coming from.

Dr G 32:21
So they’re not going to increase them?

Dr Rad 32:23
No, they’re like, You know what,

Dr G 32:24
We’ll just stick with two.

Dr Rad 32:25
Let’s just drop it

Dr G 32:26
Two is fine. The consuls are like, I’ll do my paperwork. Yeah, I hate emails, whatever.

Dr Rad 32:30
Yeah. However, the tribune of the plebs is less keen to kind of let this all go. And their like, you know, all of this has reinvigorated me, refreshed me. And so I’m now going to pursue all these other dangerous and revolutionary ideas that tribunes typically do, such as pushing for an agrarian law.

Dr G 32:57
Uh oh

Dr Rad 32:57
Yeah, instead of like, Whoa, how did this happen? We were just talking about, like, trying to reduce our admin and now we’re back at an agrarian law??

Dr G 33:06
All we said was, if you’re gonna have more quaestors, we want two of them to be us. Not gonna give it to us? Fine. I want all of the public land re allotment to be fixed up yesterday.

Dr Rad 33:18
So the senate like okay, well, clearly, we can’t risk having military tribunes with consular power. We’re going to need to organise consular elections for the next year because we need things to be you know, super stable, really under lock and key. Patricians only. The tribunes however, say, You know what? No, we’re gonna use our vetoes. And so they stop consular elections from being held. Apparently, this is something they can do.

Dr G 33:45
It seems a little bit too early.

Dr Rad 33:49
I know. And also, this is where it starts get really murky. Clearly, I think there is some overlap between the events of 421 and 420 is really unclear. Like when all of this is going down, and how, and that’s because the fricking tribunes stop the consuls being elected and therefore I don’t have a clear end date here.

Dr G 34:06
This is the year that goes forever.

Dr Rad 34:08
Yeah. And so instead of having consuls coming in instead, we have an interrex, and not just an interrex, we have lots of them.

Dr G 34:19
Oh, yes. We’re about to enter very baffling period.

Dr Rad 34:23
It is so weird. So weird

Dr G 34:25
Because an interrex – as the name would suggest – is somebody who comes between kings.

Dr Rad 34:31
Exactly, exactly right. But look, we have heard them use this before in the Republic, but yeah, the fact that it’s still hanging around almost 100 years later, it’s like guys

Dr G 34:43
As a stop gap solution. Yeah. When things really go wrong.

Dr Rad 34:46
You got rid of the kings, you’re designing the new system, be better

Dr G 34:52
At least give people new titles

Dr Rad 34:54
Exactly, like Jesus Christ, like we’ve given you 100 years like freshen up the place a bit. But anyway, so there’s this whole series of interreges apparently taking place. And even this did not happen smoothly because the tribunes are apparently trying really hard to stop the patricians from meeting at all. So when they have to meet to talk about,

Dr G 35:12
They start together in public and patricians just run out them to disperse the crowd.

Dr Rad 35:16
In private as well, like they just seem to be stopping them from having meetings everywhere, because they’re trying to gather so they can appoint the next interrex, because – we probably should remind our listeners of this strategy – the whole idea of an interrex is that the idea is that elite men each take turns holding the ultimate imperium for short periods of time.

Dr G 35:37
Yes, it’s kind of like it’s done by a lot. Or it’s done by time. That’s kind of like there are different systems for measuring it. But the idea is, it’s rotational and everybody understands the nature of the rotation.

Dr Rad 35:48
Yeah, it’s like a patrician hot potato basically. And so they are using their veto to stop them from gathering, to stop them from appointing people, to stop them from ordering consular elections. Exhausting.

Dr G 36:02
Yeah, I mean, it’s been very confusing. I mean, I’ve got I’m just overwhelmed by the confusion of it all. I’ve got no narrative. So I’ve got nothing to base my response on.

Dr Rad 36:11
I’m winding it up, don’t worry. So eventually, we get a guy called Lucius Papirius Mugillanus, who’s made the interrex. Now he decides he’s going to have a go with everyone. So he tells off the senators, he tells off the tribunes of the plebs. He’s like, hello. You’re lucky that the gods have been looking out for Rome because you guys sure as hell haven’t been. You just freaking lucky. I mean, what if? What if they decided once again, to call off the truce? What if the Aequians weren’t complete losers, as they seem to be right now, for the sake of this narrative? Things could go south really quickly for us, guys. We’re not preeminent yet. Okay, what happens in case of an emergency? What happens if you don’t have patricians in charge? Are you mad? No army, no generals to conduct a levy? Oh, my God, you all need to compromise. You all need to give in just a little bit. Just a little bit.

Demonstrate some moderatio, guys.

Oh, yeah, no, that’s exactly what happens. The Senate agree that the whole military tribunes with consular power thing can happen. And the tribunes allow for quaestors provided that they are chosen at the will of the people and can be either patrician or plebeian. Yes, that’s right.

Dr G 37:41
We’re back at square one.

Dr Rad 37:42
That’s right, we’re back at square one, where they could have been months ago, maybe years ago. Who knows how much time has passed while I’ve been dealing with this incompetence?

Dr G 37:50
So many dinner parties broken up and for nothing, just to get back to the beginning again.

Dr Rad 37:54
I know, I know. Now, look, this is one of those episodes in the whole struggle of the orders that definitely some scholars have been like, really? Did this really happen? It also doesn’t seem like the tribunes could actually stop the patricians from eating?

Dr G 38:11
No, I don’t think so. That does seem rather suspect at this point in time.

Dr Rad 38:15
And yeah, but it could be potentially a way of explaining something that really happened, which is a lot of these interreges.

Dr G 38:23
Yes, yeah. Interesting. So that sounds is that is that the wrap up? Okay.

Dr Rad 38:30
I mean, that’s it for 421. Maybe part of 420?

Dr G 38:34
Fair enough, fair enough. So to put things – different spin on things. Okay. One of the things I’ve been doing while I’ve lacked source material is just to read some scholarship, you know, everybody loves a good time. And one of those books is Drogula’s, “Commanders and Command in the Roman Republic and Early Empire”. Not interested in the early empire at this point, but I’m glad the book covers that as well.

Dr Rad 38:56
Can we get this person on the show? That’s like the second article we’ve read.

Dr G 38:59
Yeah, I Well, first, first name Fred. So I think, well, but I wouldn’t presume gender. But “Commanders and Command in the Roman Republic in Early Empire” is looking at what do we think might have been realistically going on in this very early period, and-

Dr Rad 39:19
Nothing.

Dr G 39:21
History was a blank slate, Rome was a tabula rasa. And it only came into being with the Punic Wars. Before then, it didn’t exist at all.

Dr Rad 39:31
There was some huts, that’s about all I feel confident saying.

Dr G 39:34
There were some huts, they definitely were huts. We’ve got some archaeological evidence for huts, which is great.

Dr Rad 39:39
Yeah, there were some temples.

Dr G 39:40
There were some temples. And one of the theories that Drogula is sort of exploring this early period is that you’ve got prominent families and politics operating through prominent families. Sure, which makes sense. Yeah. And so the Fabii – going back to them for a minute and their disastrous, sort of like private war with Veii. Yeah, that’s going back a little ways now. But seeing that as an example of what might actually be happening, instead of having elections, instead of having formal people coming into positions of power, what you’ve got is a kind of like, yeah, it’s warlords and bandits. And people are raising private armies, and going around the place to defend their property. So Rome has this sort of feature about it. And we see it later on as well, where they kind of don’t ever really get to the spot where they have like a proper sort of like, police force or things like that. It’s kind of like the onus is on the individual to look after themselves

Dr Rad 40:36
Oh definitely

Dr G 40:37
And how you go about that. It’s kind of up to you. And if we take that sort of idea, right back into this early period, you’ve got your land holdings, you’ve got the people who are dependent on that land who are loyal to you. You’re divided up into tribes, you’re a prominent family, you’re a tribune, because you’re a leader of a tribe in some respects, or you’ve been drawn from a tribe. So we’ve talked about this idea of where does the name tribune come from? Coming out of that tribal system? Yeah, some kind of leader. And then you’ve got this idea that we’ve also got not consuls, but praetors. Praetor being kind of like a default name for a leader as well.

Dr Rad 41:16
Yeah.

Dr G 41:17
You’ve got people who are like, well, I need to defend my property, because we’re about to get raided by those guys. And I could see him coming over the hill, who’s with me? Yeah. And there’s everybody’s got a vested interest in the local area to get on board with that, because better to defend it together than not, you got this smelly slaughters individual. Yeah, this swilling mix of people rising to prominence, who are able to raise their own armies. And that driving the politics in this central meeting area of these tribes, which is these little hills that are getting more and more populous, that becomes Rome. Yeah. And this idea, I think, is really useful and interesting for understanding some of this stuff, because Livy has to navigate and Dionysus – whenever, whenever I have him – have to navigate this idea that Rome gets rid of the kings, and is, in their mind kind of already a fully fledged Republic, before it would be really possible for them to have figured out how they’re going to do it.

Dr Rad 42:17
Yes.

Dr G 42:17
And part of what we’re seeing is this ongoing process as I’m trying to figure it out, not really getting it right. Sometimes it working. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes you got to have interreges. What does that even mean if you’re dealing with a period of like war bands or warlords, and like roving armies?

Dr Rad 42:34
I’m down to this idea of the Rome of this period actually being a chaotic mess-

Dr G 42:40
I think it might be

Dr Rad 42:41
-where they haven’t figured out what they’re doing exactly in place of the kings. I mean, you know, you think about the period that’s better documented, like when Rome collapses in the “West”, that whole idea that, you know, feudalism springs up to take its place, because people, as you say, need to defend their local area. And there are some people that are better equipped to be the leaders in that scenario, whether it’s because they already have more people that are pledged to them, or they have more material wealth of some kind. Like, it’s totally clear that that is probably what is happening here. Not necessarily in the sense of, “You, sir, if you pledge yourself to me,”

Dr G 43:17
“I shall advance you.”

Dr Rad 43:19
“Bow down before me.” But in that sense of, “I’m the strongest guy in this area.”

Dr G 43:24
“Better to be on my side, then against me. You on my side?” And you’re like, “Yes, sir. Yes, I am.”

Dr Rad 43:31
And it would explain so much.

Dr G 43:33
“I’m not gonna burn down your farm … yet.”

Dr Rad 43:37
“Those guys might if I don’t help you.”

Dr G 43:40
“If you pay me a little bit of cash, I’ll make sure that I come back if they ever return.”

Dr Rad 43:44
Yeah, exactly. It’s I mean, it makes complete sense that when you get rid of a system, like the kings, that this would be exactly what takes place.

Dr G 43:52
Yeah. And it might also help explain why we’ve got these periods where – and because we’re in the middle of this period now, and it’s going to go on for quite some time where we’ve got military tribunes with consular power, not consuls – And this is part of like this chaotic time where it’s like, there is clearly more than a couple of people who are holding imperium. And running around with an armed force. And this period of Rome sort of chaotic, coming together and trying to figure out who they are while also facing off against just about everybody else in the region.

Dr Rad 44:25
Yeah.

Dr G 44:25
We’re right in the middle of the drama now.

Dr Rad 44:29
100% I love it. All right. Well, should we wrap up there Dr. G?

Dr G 44:32
Let’s.

Dr Rad 44:33
Okay. That means that it’s time for the Partial Pick!

Uhhh, I’m just gonna cut that out.

Dr G 44:47
Why? I’m still so sad

Dr Rad 44:49
Because you’re stealing Igor’s gig. Have you thought about that? He’s in a union.

Dr G 44:53
Wow. Igor. If you’re listening. I want you to know that I’m not trying to steal your job.

Dr Rad 45:02
All right, Dr G., tell us about the Partial Pick.

Dr G 45:04
Well, it is time to see if Rome can win 50 Golden Eagles.

Dr Rad 45:10
I’m not betting anything on it.

Dr G 45:13
They’re up for 10 Golden Eagles across five categories.

Dr Rad 45:16
All right, give me the categories with the first one?

Dr G 45:18
Military clout.

Dr Rad 45:21
Look, I mean, maybe, I guess the whole Aequians thing, something that’s a very confused narrative. And it’s even then, like, even Livy’s like, “look, it’s not great.”

Dr G 45:32
How many points are you going to give it an ovatio?

Dr Rad 45:35
I mean, it’s an ovatio. It’s a pity ovatio. I mean, let’s let’s be real. It’s a patrician pity party, because they’re trying to distract people from the fact that Sempronius really stuffed up. So I feel like I cannot give it more than a three.

Dr G 45:50
All right, fair fair. All right, diplomacy.

Dr Rad 45:54
Hmm.

Dr G 45:55
Well, there was some moments of acquiescence that come through when we get four quaestors that could be elected, two of whom could be plebeian perhaps.

Dr Rad 46:10
And there’s also the whole, you know, Hortensius and the four horsemen of the apocalypse thing.

Dr G 46:15
They do have a moment where they come together and find an accord.

Dr Rad 46:21
Yes. Damn you, Livy, and your theme of moderatio. So I guess I don’t feel like it’s much because there was a lot of fighting before that one that you mentioned. And it was a lot of fighting before the one that I mentioned. So I feel like I don’t know maybe again, another three.

Dr G 46:36
Oh, I feel like a four.

Dr Rad 46:38
Okay, fine.

Dr G 46:38
You know, give them two each.

Dr Rad 46:39
Right. Okay, done.

Dr G 46:43
Expansion.

Dr Rad 46:44
No. Feels like a really long time since we had some fresh territory.

Dr G 46:51
Oh, Rome, Rome, Rome. When shall you’ll be great? Never. That’s a zero. Okay, the fourth category is virtus.

Dr Rad 47:00
Hmmm. Look, there’s some interesting behaviour going on here, I’ll give you that. But I don’t think any of it qualifies as virtus.

Dr G 47:07
I would say that perhaps the very selfless defence of Sempronius by the four tribune of the plebs who served under him under a disastrous campaign, and that filial parallel that they make? That the commander is akin to their father.

Dr Rad 47:25
Yeah.

Dr G 47:25
Fascinating stuff. I feel like that’s got a bit of virtus in it.

Dr Rad 47:28
Okay. Okay. I’m not gonna give them a lot. Maybe like a two? I don’t know. It seems like an empty gesture.

Dr G 47:38
Yeah. Look.

Dr Rad 47:39
Hortensius was fake anyway!

Dr G 47:41
Talking you into it, aren’t I? But I do think there is some element of virtus there because of that parallel with with pietas, so yeah, I don’t mind if it’s low. I’m not wedded to a number on this one. I don’t, I don’t have a strong feeling one way or the other. But yeah, I think something,

Dr Rad 47:57
I think it would make a mockery of all Romans who threw themselves into the heat of battle-

Dr G 48:03
gained their wound on the front-

Dr Rad 48:04
and got slaughted. And these guys just said, “Hey, maybe we’ll wear some different clothes.” So I feel like a two is fair.

Dr G 48:13
He threw on his best black dress, and I’m calling that virtue. And our final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 48:24
Citizens remarkably absent from all this bickering going on, but I feel like it can’t be pleasant for them.

Dr G 48:32
Look, they’ve had some maybe they’ve been involved in this Aequian situation.

Dr Rad 48:37
They would definitely had to have been.

Dr G 48:38
That would have wouldn’t have been great, but they did win. So that could have been worse.

Dr Rad 48:42
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Dr G 48:43
But then also, if we’ve got now for quaestors, and two can be drawn from the plebeian class. That seems like there’s the potential for greater representation.

Dr Rad 48:53
True. Always the potential though, isn’t it?

Dr G 48:57
I’m emphasising the potential. I’ve been reading a little bit of Rome’s history. And I’m not feeling confident that we’re going to see two quaestors.

Dr Rad 49:06
Maybe a three. Like, you know, I mean, it’s not they’re not really explicitly mentioned, which makes me think that nothing particularly out of the ordinary is happening, either good or bad.

Dr G 49:19
All right. All right. I’m happy to go with that.

Dr Rad 49:21
Okay. That means, Dr G., that we ended up with a grand total of 12 Golden Eagles for Rome, and that’s over two years, so that’s even more pathetic than it sounds.

Dr G 49:34
Oh, Rome. Well, okay.

Dr Rad 49:38
I am very excited though, for you. Because if you join me next episode, Dr. G.

Dr G 49:43
Oh, boy, I’m very excited. There are things on the horizon. Stay tuned listeners.

Dr Rad 49:48
I just gonna say one word: Vestals.

Dr G 49:51
Yes. Hold that thought in your mind. Yeah. Well, before we go, I’d like to thank all of our patrons who are are marvellous and wonderful, and encourage anybody who enjoys our work to think about supporting us as well. We’d love to have you.

Dr Rad 50:08
Why not? Why not? Why not make this a full time gig so that we can really speed through Rome’s history at a much faster pace than we have so far.

Dr G 50:17
But also, if you’re fiscally doing it tough, which I totally understand, and, you know, podcasts are a fabulous free resource. We’d love to have a review written by you if you enjoy our work, because those reviews actually make our day every time we see them.

Dr Rad 50:33
They absolutely do. And you can also just tell someone old school style about the show and say, “Give it a listen.”

Dr G 50:40
“See what you think.”

Dr Rad 50:42
Exactly, yes.

Dr G 50:44
All right. Well, it has been, as always an absolute pleasure to chat with you, Dr. Rad.

Dr Rad 50:50
Agree Dr. G. Now for anyone who wants to know all that our sources for this episode and our credits, please check out our website. That’s where we post it all. And our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 138 – The Four Horsemen appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

This episode we return to the ‘Golden Age of Hollywood’ with a classic sword and sandal epic, Quo Vadis (1951). This film is available through many streaming platforms and we highly recommend revisiting it.

In Part One of two episodes on Quo Vadis, we examine the context for the film and the plot.

Quo Vadis (1951) helped to ignite Hollywood’s passion for ancient epics in this decade. It was a smash hit with some of the legendary stars of the era, including Robert Taylor, Deborah Kerr and Peter Ustinov. This film is not only epic in terms of length, but in terms of all the aspects that you could discuss in connection with it.

Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part One

The tale itself has a lengthy backstory which takes us all the way back to 19th century Poland. Henryk Sienkiewicz wrote the book in a serialised format between 1894-1896. Poland had been going a through a tough time over the course of the preceding century, in the sense that it did not exist independently between 1795 and 1918. During this period, the Catholic Church was crucial in preserving Polish culture. Sienkiewicz often wrote historical novels that would lift the spirits of his fellow poles, and Quo Vadis was no exception. For Sienkiewicz, the triumph of Christian characters such as Lygia and Ursus (meant to be from Lugii, i.e. Poland) represent the ultimate triumph of Poland over its cruel oppressors, with Nero representing nations such as Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia.  

Sienkiewicz’s novel was well-received, and was therefore adapted into toga plays, operas, and several films. The earlier film versions were made in Europe, including the notable 1912 silent classic.

Join us for the fascinating background of the 1951 film and stay tuned for Part Two!

There are a LOT of characters to keep track of in a film of this length, so if you need a handy reference, check out the cast list on IMDB.

The main people that you need to know for our episode include:

Fictional main lady love interest. Christian, hostage-turned-adoptive daughter of Roman general Aulus Plautus, and his wife, Pomponia Graecina.

Fictional main manly love interest. Roman, not Christian (yet). Militaristic, aggressive to start, turns all moral as the film progresses.

Lygia (Deborah Kerr) and Marcus Vinicius (Robert Taylor) in the courtyard of her adoptive parents’ home in Rome.
Source: FilmAffinity.

Historical figure. Really was Roman emperor from 54-68 CE. Known as the last emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Really was terrible, although maybe not quite as unrelentingly awful as many suggest – including this film. Probably not as amusing as Peter Ustinov!

Historical figure. Elite Roman lady. Complicated love life. Winds up as Nero’s second wife. Called beautiful but awful in the surviving sources. We say – the jury is out on that one. Typical fun, adulteress type character used to contrast to the ‘good girl’, Lygia. Historically, she is murdered by Nero while pregnant with their child. In Quo Vadis, Nero strangles her. An awful demise in reality and in film.

Historical figure. Served as governor of Bithynia and was consul in either 62 or 63 CE. Did a decent job, but in his personal life seems to have made pleasure his main goal. Dubbed the ‘Arbiter of Elegance’ by Nero. Accused of being part of a conspiracy against Nero and suicided whilst chatting casually to friends. Thought to be the author of the novel, The Satyricon, which is a very unusual piece because it does NOT focus on the elite and is pretty … eye-opening. Possibly makes fun of Nero through the gross figure of Trimalchio, a freedmen who has become a wealthy show-off with no taste. Close associate of Nero. In the movie, Petronius is Vinicius’ uncle and an elegant, witty, intelligent member of Emperor Nero’s inner-circle. He also has a weird obsession with the enslaved Eunice…

From left: Petronius (Leo Genn) attempting to advise Nero (Peter Ustinov) in a scene from Quo Vadis (1951).
Image source: FilmFanatic

Fictional character. Bodyguard of Lygia, Christian convert. Super strong.

That’s St Peter to you! Follower of Jesus Christ. Christian (to state the obvious). Supposedly was crucified upside down, making him a martyr, which Sienkiewicz worked into his novel. Has a very famous domed building named after him.  

Historical figure. Elite Roman lady who was related to the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Mentioned by Tacitus for her ballsy behaviour. She wore mourning for DECADES after Julia was bumped off by Messalina, which could have led to her own downfall, but Claudius did not punish her. (Julia Livia, granddaughter of Tiberius, daughter of Livilla and Drusus Caesar – mother of Rubellius Plautus). Her husband was told to deal with her privately after she was charged for believing in an “alien superstition”, which some have taken to mean she dabbled in Christianity. Good choice to turn into a character with Christian leanings in Quo Vadis! Adoptive mother of Lygia in the film. V V Virtuous.  

Historical figure. Really was a Roman general who won an ovation for a campaign in Britain. Really married to Pomponia Graecina.  

Historical figure. An imperial freedwoman that teenage Nero fell for HARD, much to his mother’s displeasure. Suetonius reports that she was one of the few to attend the interment of his ashes, so her devotion in the film tracks. In the film, not a Christian but still a good woman as she is virtuous and loyal. As the movie is set late in Nero’s reign, it makes sense that he has moved on from her by now. Sympathetic to Christians, so that’s something. Is in love with Nero but keeps it real with him. Helps him to commit suicide when everyone else has abandoned him. A good choice, as Nero’s suicide was supposedly aided by his slave.

Fictional enslaved woman. For reasons that make absolutely no sense, she has a crush on her master, Petronius. He eventually loves her back – depends on the version of Quo Vadis that you consult as to how that happens. It’s fair to say, we’re not keen on her storyline.

Thanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

The classic film poster for Quo Vadis, the Roman and Christian epic!
Image course: Wikipedia.

Interested in how Rome is depicted on screen? Check out our back catalogue where we cover films and television.

Edited for clarity! The AI does seem to have challenges with both Latin and Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:08
Welcome to this special episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and normally Dr. G and I discuss the history of Rome from the founding of the city. But today we begin a deep dive into Quo Vadis 1951. We ended up talking for so long about this epic that we have split the episode into two parts. This is part one of our coverage of Quo Vadis, in which we will examine the context and the plot. We hope that you enjoy this sword and sandal classic as much as we did.

Dr G 0:54
Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G

Dr Rad 1:03
And I am Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:05
And we are so excited because we’re going to be talking about the film, the film,

Dr Rad 1:12
Indeed

Dr G 1:13
Quo Vadis.

Dr Rad 1:14
Yes. And now we have talked about this on someone else’s podcast before but it was years ago really a long time ago. We’ve never done it just the two of us. So we thought we would revisit because as our time of recording it is Easter.

Dr G 1:29
It is Easter. And we did have a special request come through from one of our supporters. So shout out to you.

Dr Rad 1:37
Yeah

Dr G 1:38
This is Quo Vadis

Dr Rad 1:40
Indeed

Dr G 1:40
From us.

Dr Rad 1:41
So Quo Vadis is one of the biggest blockbuster films – sword and sandals – of the 1950s it really kicks off the decade.

Dr G 1:53
I was gonna say this is 1951.

Dr Rad 1:55
Exactly.

Dr G 1:56
And boy is the bar set high. Because this film is probably what just as long as “The Fall of the Roman Empire”. But better, like I didn’t get bored.

Dr Rad 2:04
Ah, that’s good to hear! Well see, I never know how people are going to respond to all these different ones. But yes, it was definitely I think the film that kind of set the tone for the decade you know, had Hollywood chasing the ruins constantly like this is where we’re going to make money people. This is how we’re going to save our industry. But it didn’t just come out of nowhere, Dr. G. So I thought before we actually talk about the 1951 film, we have to acknowledge some of the background.

Dr G 2:35
Ah a true historian you are

Dr Rad 2:37
Can’t help myself, because this is actually based on a blockbuster novel.

Dr G 2:44
Yes. And the success of the novel is part of what engenders the film.

Dr Rad 2:48
Exactly, exactly. So it was written in the 19th century like right at the end, it was appearing in sort of a serialised version between 1894 and 1896. Originally written in Polish, because the author was Polish. And unsurprisingly, so far makes sense. Yeah, his name was Henryk Sienkiewicz. I think that’s how you pronounce it anyway. And he he was known for writing quite a few novels, basically historical novels, generally ones that I think, showed the Polish people in a way that was going to lift morale for the people of his own time. And that I think, has a lot to do with what Poland was dealing with at this point in time. And I’ll come to that in a moment. But essentially, in this particular book that he was writing, it’s meant to be that the Christians kind of stand for, like the very earliest version of the Catholic Church, which had come to be very important for representing Polish interests against the other nations that wanted to control Poland at this point in time.

Dr G 2:48
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Dr Rad 3:58
Yeah. But I think also, it was also maybe sparked by the fact that there were large scale excavations going on in Rome at around the time that he was writing as well, from about 1870 to 1914.

Dr G 4:14
There’s lots of things being uncovered. And lots of exciting finds being shared across Europe.

Dr Rad 4:19
Indeed, yeah, because Poland, Poland has such a sad history, there is no independent Poland between 1795 and 1918, essentially, but resistance continues throughout this entire time. And the Catholic Church is just crucial for trying to preserve Polish culture, when it’s going through one of those classic periods of oppression where, you know, occupying powers are saying, “Hey, you can’t speak your language. No, not even in school”, you know, so they’re trying to preserve their identity and that sort of thing. So, one of the main characters of the novel is a girl called Lygia.

Dr G 4:57
And would I be right guessing that this is supposed to be a stand-in for Poland?

Dr Rad 5:00
Yes. As well as the blonde hair, yeah, as well as her kind of servant Ursus. So both of them are meant to be representing Catholic Poland and the Polish people.

Dr G 5:15
Nice. All right.

Dr Rad 5:17
And the fact that Nero does not end well in this novel is meant to be a bit of a threat, I think, against the various countries that are exploiting Poland at this point in time, namely, Russia, Austro-Hungary, and Prussia, not to be confused with Russia.

Dr G 5:37
All of whom would be utilising Roman symbolism as part of their regalia as part of their politics. So this is not a huge jump for the imagination of the Polish reader to be like, “Oh, I see where you’re going here.”

Dr Rad 5:52
Yeah, definitely. So I just thought that was really interesting to note and Quo Vadis, did become an international bestseller was published in many different translations. So lots of people end up becoming familiar with this particular work. In fact, in 1905, Sienkiewicz, our author, was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature

Dr G 6:12
Well, but not for Quo Vadis? For something else?

Dr Rad 6:15
I actually feel like it was for Quop Vadis, but now I’m doubting myself. Maybe it’s just the way I’ve organised my notes where I’m like Quo Vadis, international bestseller, awarded Nobel Prize. Either way, he’s a good writer.

Dr G 6:31
He’s doing well for himself.

Dr Rad 6:32
Yeah, people are captured by the story. And it ends up being adapted many times into plays into operas. And eventually, there are multiple film versions of this particular novel. I thought it might be a good point, however, to pause and talk a little bit about when this is supposedly set. The context.

Dr G 6:54
Yeah, so we’ve got – we’re in the late period of Nero’s reign, from what we can tell.

Dr Rad 7:02
Yeah.

Dr G 7:03
There is the story of Agrippina, his mother, already having been knocked off.

Dr Rad 7:09
Yes.

Dr G 7:09
He’s also gotten rid of Octavia.

Dr Rad 7:13
First one.

Dr G 7:13
Yes. And he’s now married to somebody called Poppaea.

Dr Rad 7:19
Yes. So Nero, Nero is someone who’s pretty infamous. But just in case you don’t know who the Emperor Nero is – and that’s completely fine – he is part of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, draw their descent from well, I mean,

Dr G 7:33
Julius Caesar, ultimately, but most people leverage the connection to Augustus.

Dr Rad 7:38
I was going to say, it’s really Augustus they’re concerned about and one of the Claudian gens.

Dr G 7:43
One of those Claudians. One of them in there somewhere.

Dr Rad 7:47
That blended together in this amazing McFlurry of a family. And Nero when he comes to power in 54. See, he is a teenager, about 16 years old about to turn 17 when he comes into power. And if you’re thinking to yourself, I don’t think I trust teenagers with that much power. You’d be correct.

Dr G 8:10
Yes, you shouldn’t. And we don’t recommend putting them into power that young because, well, there’s plenty of historical evidence to suggest they cannot handle the heady heights of power at that age.

Dr Rad 8:21
Yeah, particularly when you have a mother who, whilst amazing is extremely dominating, like Agrippina the Younger, who may very well have committed murder of her awn uncle slash husband, in order to make you emperor.

Dr G 8:35
Oft!

Dr Rad 8:36
Yeah. So in spite of all of this, allegedly, the first few years of Nero’s reign started. Yeah, well, I suppose you could say.

Dr G 8:46
There is talk of the five good years of Nero.

Dr Rad 8:50
Yeah.

Dr G 8:50
Where he’s following his advisers. He’s got a few: Seneca is probably the most famous of them.

Dr Rad 8:56
Yeah.

Dr G 8:57
And Agrippina seems to also be a moderating maternal force. She may be quite domineering, but Nero seems to –

Dr Rad 9:06
Sometimes it’s a good thing

Dr G 9:06

Dr Rad 9:09
Yeah. And Burrus head of his Praetorian Guard set. Yeah, absolutely. All these people seem to be actually the ones calling the shots. And that’s from the good thing, because I don’t think Nero is particularly interested in the reality of politics. He’s okay with the benefits, but I don’t think he’s super interested in ruling per se. Unless it’s like, get me another eunuch.

Dr G 9:38
Yeah, look, he’s young. He’s got a lot to learn and maybe he steps into leadership in a slightly bigger way as time goes on. Certainly he makes a play to be the one who gets to decide things ultimately, and we see the shift away from what is thought of as the five good years into like, “Oh, Nero’s in charge now.”

Dr Rad 9:59
Yeah,

Dr G 10:00
“Oh, well then!”

Dr Rad 10:01
How’s that gonna go for everyone? Not Great.

Dr G 10:04
Look, if this film is anything to go by: pretty terribly.

Dr Rad 10:09
The historical accuracy we will get to that in a sec. But yeah, the major I think signs of like a turning point is that number one in 59 CE Agrippina the Younger is murdered by Nero. And I don’t think anybody disputes that.

Dr G 10:23
Everybody seems to credit him as being the killer. Yeah, there are various methods and when the collapsible boat doesn’t work out, he moves on to more fatal measures.

Dr Rad 10:35
More straightforward, certainly. And then a few years after that, Burrus dies. And Seneca also appears to take a step back, maybe because he’s losing influence. And this is around the time that his marriage falls apart with Octavia, his first wife is very popular with the people and also one of his relatives. Creepy. Yes, but let’s not dwell on it.

Dr G 11:00
Pretty normal for the Julio-Claudians.

Dr Rad 11:02
Yeah, exactly. They could look they could be closer related, let’s just say, and he starts hanging out with this other elite woman who’s apparently far more depraved Poppaea Sabina. Eventually, she will become his next wife. But he starts making more audacious moves after 62 – not just because he gets rid of Octavia and when I say it gets rid of her he doesn’t just divorce her. He also puts her to death in a really terrible way, which does not win him any friends. But in 64, we start to see Nero performing publicly on stage which is a real no-no for anyone in the elite, but particularly the emperor.

Dr G 11:40
Ah, yeah. So Nero has this reputation as somebody who enjoys the arts, enjoys the theatre. And while you might think to yourself, well, they’re innocent diversions, and many people enjoy the theatre and the arts

Dr Rad 11:54
Without being raving psychopathic murderer and mother.

Dr G 11:57
It’s not quite the same in ancient Rome, some forms of entertainment are considered very low brow. And for Nero himself to be a stage performer is considered well outside the bounds of what is morally and socially acceptable for somebody of an elite stature.

Dr Rad 12:19
Oh, definitely. And I think it also has to do with the idea of putting yourself publicly on display in that way, like using your body in that kind of a way

Dr G 12:28
Oh, hello.

Dr Rad 12:29
Yeah, it just it just ugh.

Dr G 12:31
But apparently, he counted himself as being quite the artiste. Yeah, a bit of a singer. Yeah, a bit of a instrumentalist.

Dr Rad 12:37
Oh, what can’t you do, Dr. G, is really the question? Or at least what won’t he pretend he can’t do.

Dr G 12:44
The other problem with this kind of thing is from a Roman perspective is these kinds of pursuits are also seen as being a little bit too Greek.

Dr Rad 12:52
Yes. And we know that Nero seems to have been very fond of Greek culture.

Dr G 12:56
And yes, for the Romans, this is concerning because they feel the Greeks are a little bit too effeminate for their liking.

Dr Rad 13:04
Way too soft. That’s not how you conquer the world – can be tough. The Romans, apparently, yeah. Anyway, it’s in at 65 that we have the Great Fire of Rome, we’ll get to that. I’m not going to talk about the accuracy of this event right now. I mean, there is a fire. Don’t get me wrong. That’s true.

Dr G 13:20
Rome definitely suffers from a fire and there’s definitely a rebuilding programme which Nero leads.

Dr Rad 13:25
Yeah. So there’s a very big fire very damaging, not uncommon to have a fire and we’re in but a fire on this scale is unusual. And then of course, we have one of the largest and probably better known conspiracy against your in that same year, the Pisonian conspiracy. However, Nero still –

Dr G 13:46
He survived!

Dr Rad 13:47
Yeah, he performs at the Neronia, a Greek festival he throws.

Dr G 13:53
Named after himself, Oh, how sweet!

Dr Rad 13:55
I think we’re getting a bit of a feel for him so far. And then we see a real degeneration. I think after this point, you see the death of Poppaea also, allegedly, because of Nero’s actions, he murders her, with the plague in Rome in 66 CE, which, again, is not Nero’s fault, but it’s not great. And many people are being put to death in this year. On top of that, nothing to do with the plague, just because of the conspiracy of the previous year. And if that weren’t enough, there’s another conspiracy in 66. Nero still goes on holiday in Greece. And there’s a revolt in Judea.

Dr G 13:55
Ah yes.

Dr Rad 13:58
Yeah, which isn’t great. And then in 67 CE, we start to see the execution of very competent and popular generals like a guy called Corbulo, which doesn’t again, win Nero any friends, and finally in 68, this is where we’re going to see one of the more notable revolts against Nero, mostly because it’s successful and near will eventually be ousted from power and commit suicide.

He comes to a sticky end.

Yeah. So that’s just a bit of a rough context. For those of you who don’t know Nero particularly well about when Quo Vadis is set because Quo Vadis is taking place in these latter years as you said.

Dr G 15:15
Yeah, we’re definitely in the post five good years by the time we see Nero on screen in Quo Vadis. He is married to Poppaea Sabina. Yeah. And that is where all of this is heading. And we also see the way that Nero was constructed in this film is very much in service of the broader Christianizing narrative, which is the dominant narrative for this whole film.

Dr Rad 15:41
I’m so glad you said that Dr. G, because one of the things I wanted to mention is that, I think one of the forms of adaptation that has a real legacy in the films that we see toga plays. Now toga plays were very popular in the 19th century, and even I think, into the early 20th century, to be honest, the Quo Vadis versions were not necessarily themselves, like huge smash hits like they did, okay. But the hallmarks of a toga play, I think you can see in the film version, so for example, the fact that you have to have this kind of generic Christianity, because you don’t want to specialise or get specific, because that way, everyone who’s even remotely Christian can endorse the film as being, you know, leading the way with Christianity and that sort of thing. But perhaps more important than that, even are the female characterizations that you tend to see spring up in toga plays. So you often have a Christian female in these productions, who is self-sacrificing, domestic, and she has a interesting influence over the more aggressive, perhaps bolder, smarter, even funnier, perhaps even more attractive male in the story.

Dr G 17:03
Well, well, well, I think there’s also some interesting parallels to be drawn between the way that these kinds of films and it sounds like these toga plays as well, that I’m less familiar with, are also doing a very similar thing to the way that Christian philosophical literature from the second and third century CE are doing in terms of building a convincing case for why it would be good for you to also be Christian.

Dr Rad 17:29
Yes, definitely. Well, I think that’s the interesting thing about toga plays, and then sword and sound type films or, you know, just films about Rome in general, in that Rome, for both the British and North Americans in the Victorian age, they’re often the bad guys in these sorts of things, you know, these toga plays in the early films, and even the later films, to be honest. But even though they’re the bad guys, and therefore they are the other, because of course, Britain and North America see themselves as being on the side of Christianity. But at the same time, there’s obviously got to be a lot that they recognise in themselves in terms of empire: wanting power wanting conquest, you know, the pillars of civilization.

Dr G 18:16
Oh, it’s the duelling sides of the soul, isn’t it? It’s that desire for the material gain that Rome represents so well. Yeah. And I think spiritual richness of the Christian soul.

Dr Rad 18:28
Yeah. And I always have this phrase in my head, which I didn’t actually need you to write it down, even though I have to because it really stood out for me when I was doing my research into this kind of stuff from Mayer and he says Rome and its empire were painfully familiar. I think that always sums up very well the kind of relationship that the British and American audiences are going to continue to have with Rome. Now, of course, Quo Vadis, does make it to the screen very early, in fact, and it has been adapted many times. We’re focusing on the 1951 version, but there are a couple of silent versions and there was a version from 2001. That was a mini series in 1985. You know, Quo Vadis is one of those ones that people keep going back to, like Ben Hur. And as we know, Hollywood likes to repeat success story.

Dr G 19:16
They certainly do.

Dr Rad 19:17
Hey, this works. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Nero’s reign really works on a Hollywood level, because it allows you to have this extravaganza of consumption and excess and lavishness on the screen whilst also being like it’s not cool.

Dr G 19:40
Oh, guys, don’t do do this. Look on but a heaven forfend that you do this?

Dr Rad 19:49
Yeah, exactly. So there was a very famous version in 1912, directed by Enrico Guazzoni. And this is generally seen as a pretty spectacular early film, you know, because they’re still experimenting with the the medium and that sort of thing. So it’s seen as having some really interesting technological innovations, which makes the story I think, much more powerful. And then we have another version in 1925, which is also interesting, because of course, it’s like the rise of fascism is happening in that at that point in time. So it’s not overly influenced by that. But anyway, but we do want to focus on the 1951 version today. So let’s skip ahead to that. Shall we talk about the general plot of the 1951 version is a bit different to the novel.

Dr G 20:38
All right. So Quo Vadis, 1951. So we’ve got essentially a cast of our Roman characters and our Christian characters. Yes. And we start with our Romans, we’ve got a Roman commander coming back to Rome, yeah, as you should, after successfully leading these legions over in Britain or whatnot. And where this sort of takes off is that he’s not allowed to go into the city straightaway, he’s got to camp outside. And he finds out later that this is for good reasons. Nero wants to put on a proper display with a whole bunch of legions and commanders coming back soon. But this means that our main character Marcus Vinicius has to end up staying with a friend, rather than popping home and doing his own thing.

Dr Rad 21:25
Awkward crashing on the triclinium.

Dr G 21:27
Yeah. And it’s a guy that he’s known for a long time, used to be a Roman commander himself. So they’ve got a history there. And that’s nice. But what seems to have happened that maybe Vinicius has hasn’t picked up on between the last time he saw this guy is that this family has become Christian.

Dr Rad 21:43
Gasphow disgusting!

Dr G 21:47
You know, he kind of doesn’t come into this knowledge for quite some time. He’s –

Dr Rad 21:51
They’re secretive!

Dr G 21:52
Yeah, he’s pretty oblivious and they’re really not being overt about it. They’re not being like, “Ooh, something new in town. Have you tried Christianity?” They’ve been very calm, very quiet. And it’s during this moment that Vinicius is also runs into their daughter, the daughter of this guy and his wife, Lygia, in the household. And he’s like, you know, every time the camera pans to her, it’s a Vaseline moment. She is. It is incredible. But he immediately starts to deploy his – what I think he thinks is charismatic charm – but is really Roman boorishness.

Dr Rad 22:32
Well for particularly someone like her and she’s, she’s an interesting character because she is meant to be a hostage of the Lygian king, but she’s become like a daughter to these people.

Dr G 22:42
Well, she’s – they say – that she’s been adopted.

Dr Rad 22:45
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 22:46
And they’ve taken her in as their own.

Dr Rad 22:48
Yeah

Dr G 22:48
But she is a hostage of a foreign kingdom. And she does have a bodyguard, who’s also from a kingdom who also lives in the household. Yeah, and this whole arrangement is very interesting. But also Vinicius is kind of like just sort of like tramples all over things, tries to do a bit of a clumsy seduction. After he’s just seen her for the first time. And she’s not having a bar of that.

Dr Rad 23:12
Yeah.

Dr G 23:12
Which is fair enough. Smart move, lady. But this means that a friction has been set up where because Vinicius has been denied, in this very sort of materialistic Roman way that they’re being characterised, you start to develop this thing, “Well, if I can’t have it, I really want it.” And, and this colours, a whole bunch of things.

Dr Rad 23:32
Yeah.

Dr G 23:33
So this leads him to create a scenario through his contacts with Nero to have Lygia transferred out of that household. He finds out that she’s the hostage. Yeah, he’s like, what do we know about how hostage law works? And they’re like, well –

Dr Rad 23:49
Sneaky bastard!

Dr G 23:50
Yeah, if the emperor says so. I mean, the hostage can be transferred to a different household. Yeah. So Vinicius sets this up. So Lygia is first of all ripped out of the home that she has come to know

Dr Rad 24:02
Totally going to win her over. 100%.

Dr G 24:04
Definitely. Yeah. She gets gussied up at the Imperial Palace into some fancy dress.

Dr Rad 24:08
I think you mean, she gets slut-ified.

Dr G 24:12
They put her in a very nice gown.

Dr Rad 24:15
Yeah, I don’t think she’s too comfortable in it. It’s too revealing.

Dr G 24:18
Too revealing and maybe a little bit too shiny. Yeah. And they put her on display in front of the emperor at a sort of a dinner party situation where Vinicius is like, “you look ravishing”, and she’s like, “What? Why am I even here? Like, I’ve just been ripped from my family, like, whatever.” Yeah. And he’s like, “Oh, well, the good news is I did that.” And she’s like, “Excuse me?. And he’s like, “So your mine now by imperial decree. Did you know?” And she’s like, “Oh. My. God.”

Dr Rad 24:49
This guy can’t take a hint!

Dr G 24:52
She finds a way to escape essentially from that situation. Yeah. Nero is kind of oblivious and doing his own thing in the meantime, and I think this is an important subplot, Poppaea has spotted Vinicius and she’s like, “Well, he looks pretty hot.”

Dr Rad 25:07
Oh, yes.

Dr G 25:08
And her reputation for debauchery knows no bounds. So everybody’s kind of like they’re not really surprised when she tries to sort of she calls him over for a bit of a chat. Yeah. Nero doesn’t seem perplexed about this kind of thing at all, like Poppaea is being Poppaea. She’s an interesting one.

Dr Rad 25:24
This is just how women act. Yeah. May want me?

Dr G 25:28
My tiger, my cheetah. So she does a bit of a thing where she makes sure Vinicius knows that she’s interested in him. Yes. And he’s like, Okay, that’s cool. But my chick’s over there. Then she disappears. Lygia is sort of whisked away. And secreted away. And it turns out –

Dr Rad 25:47
This has something to do with Acte, doesn’t it?

Dr G 25:49
Yes.

Dr Rad 25:49
Yeah. Acte is actually a historical person. Yes. Yeah. Actually, as her [Lygia’s] adoptive parents, I should say. Yeah. Acte is mentioned in connection with Nero.

Dr G 26:01
Yeah. Acte is somebody who is written about in the source material as being one of these people that he has a relationship with. And she’s an actress. I think

Dr Rad 26:11
I actually thought she was a freed woman or a slave?

Dr G 26:15
Yeah, there’s something going on there. She has, she loves she has very low status, but they have a connection. And she is written about. And in the film, she sort of running the sort of the ladies of the household. She’s kind of like a high up sort of servant it would seem.

Dr Rad 26:31
Yeah. And but she’s obviously madly in love. With Nero.

Dr G 26:35
Still in love with Nero. Nero no longer seems to care. He’s moved on – Poppaea is where it’s at.

Dr Rad 26:40
Yeah, hashtag move on.

Dr G 26:43
And Acte is very implicated in the escape of Lygia. Yes. From the imperial palace. She shows Lygia the sign of the fish.

Yeah. But she’s not a Christian herself?

No, but she she’s sympathetic.

Dr Rad 26:56
Yeah. And again, this kind of ties in with what we know about early Christianity in that it does seem to been something that I think appeals to those lower down the social scale, rather than those at the top.

Dr G 27:09
And so we find out that the Christians are sort of getting together in the caves on the outskirts of the city. Maybe they’re catacombs, maybe they’re not, but they’re getting together underground. And it’s in this sort of moment. That Peter turns up.

Dr Rad 27:28
As in St. Peter, not Dr. G.

Dr G 27:30
I didn’t turn up. You can look for that cameo You shall not find it. St. Peter turns up and he gives a bit of a sermon. And at that sermon, Marcus Vinicius, by this point, has figured out that she’s been taken by the Christians and whisked away and he’s found a way to infiltrate into the cave and the meeting. So he gets gets to hear this sermon as well. He doesn’t really buy into the Christianity stuff, but he’s certainly hearing some different material –

Dr Rad 28:00
Yeah

Dr G 28:01

Dr Rad 28:27
She’s easily spotted.

Dr G 28:29
Ursus the, which lighting Latin for Bear, which is beautiful, because he’s a big, tall, strong guy. He’s like, “I can hear people following us.” And she’s like, “Whaaat?”, and he’s like, “No, seriously. You go. Yeah, you go ahead, and I’ll wait here.” And so he catches them unawares manages to kill the gladiator that Vinicius has hired to be his strong man for the night. He’s Greek friend who helped him infiltrate the cave runs away.

Dr Rad 28:58
Of course.

Dr G 28:58
And Vinicius gets sort of a smoosh on the head and Ursus takes him to where they’re hiding Lygia. So they’re staying in somebody else’s place. Yeah. And it’s pretty clear from the architecture that this is a bit of step down for her. Yeah, this is not the former general’s household

Dr Rad 29:16
But she’s cool with it because she’s Christian.

Dr G 29:17
She’s very Christian. She doesn’t mind. They’ve created a cross out of two sticks tied together. And that’s good enough for her. And this moment, this is kind of one of these really pivotal scenes in this film.

Dr Rad 29:29
Such a Florence Nightingale thing.

Dr G 29:32
So pivotal, because Vinicius is like, “Why did you not kill me?”

Dr Rad 29:37
Yes.

Dr G 29:37
And Ursus is like, “Well, it’s sin.” Even though he just killed a gladiator.

Dr Rad 29:41
Yeah. Yeah, him I’ll kill. You on the other hand…

Dr G 29:45
“That guy was trying to kill me. So that’s self defence.”

Dr Rad 29:47
Yeah.

Dr G 29:48
“Wheras you, you’re already out for the count.”

Dr Rad 29:50
Yeah.

Dr G 29:51
“So anyway, so it didn’t kill you.” And so there’s this moment of exchange. And then Vinicius is like, “Well, you know, all of this trouble. I – I don’t understand it. I’m just going to leave you to it. You’re not a hostage of me anymore, Lygia, I don’t care. I don’t want anything to do with it anymore.” And as soon as he rejects her, yeah, this is also opening up the pathway for her to be open and honest about how she feels because she’s no longer in a position of coercion. And immediately

Dr Rad 30:20
She’s secretly got the hots for him!

Dr G 30:22
She’s like, “but I’ve always loved you.” It is baffling.

Dr Rad 30:28
Yeah.

Dr G 30:29
And one can only assume it’s because he’s so good looking.

Dr Rad 30:32
Yeah, look, I mean, obviously, Lygia is played by Deborah Kerr, you know, she’s obviously big star at this point in time. And Vinicius is paid by Robert Taylor, also a big star of the time known to be quite attractive.

Dr G 30:48
So yeah, so apparently, he’s hot enough. And even though he’s silly. I mean, he’s really he’s really only revealed himself to be very silly up until now to her, you know, it’s like, you know, he’s tried to seduce her by being rude to her. And then he’s stolen her from her hostage family taht she likes living with.

Dr Rad 31:09
Yeah.

Dr G 31:10
And then he’s trying to follow a home from a Christian gathering, like he’s done nothing –

Dr Rad 31:15
But cause her pain

Dr G 31:15

Dr Rad 31:18
Yeah.

Dr G 31:19
And she’s like, “But I’ve always…” So I think she might be talking with her downstairs rather than her upstairs at this point in time.

Dr Rad 31:25
Well, isn’t that what women think with?

Dr G 31:27
Oh. Oh! And that’s exciting because Vinicius is then immediately back in. He’s like, “Let’s do this.” Yeah.

Dr Rad 31:37
“I was just kidding. I take back everything I just said.”

Dr G 31:39
Really? Really? You’re? Now you’re into it? Cool. And so you can see how the, sort of like the people who play The Game, those sort of like, yeah, those pointed like, sort of those dating gurus that are sort of like quite popular in the late 90s- early 2000s. Yeah, about all of that kind of stuff like Mystery and things like that. You can see how they might have watched a film like this and being like, negging her was the thing that worked.

Dr Rad 32:08
Yeah.

Dr G 32:08
Like, that’s just like, No, but you’re always a terrible person. And a guy wrote this script. It’s really, really clear.

Dr Rad 32:15
Yeah yeah.

Dr G 32:16
Because Lygia is just a little bit unbelievable in this moment, but they have a discussion about you know, how they’re going to stay together and how it’s gonna be amazing and she’s like, “well, if you stay with me, you’ve got to believe in my faith”, and Vinicius is like “I could just be with you – you can bring whatever gods you want. I don’t mind. You do you.”

Dr Rad 32:34
“The more the merrier, I’m Roman”

Dr G 32:35
Yeah, he’s like “I don’t mind, there’s heaps of Gods – there’s enough for all of us.”

Dr Rad 32:38
Yeah

Dr G 32:38
And she’s like, “that’s not good enough. No, you actually have to really try to buy in here.” And he’s like, “What is wrong with you?” He snaps the wooden cross.

Dr Rad 32:49
“I thought we were together! Now you’re saying there’s all these conditions?!”

Dr G 32:53
Yeah. And he gets really mad has a temper tantrum breaks the cross throws it on the ground storms off,

Dr Rad 32:59
Like these people haven’t suffered enough. For goodness sake, their cross is made of out sticks.

Dr G 33:04
So anyway, it’s a that’s kind of like this moment of crisis for these two.

Dr Rad 33:10
Absolutely.

Dr G 33:11
And then it kind of switches to this more Nero focused side of the story.

Dr Rad 33:17
Now we’re gonna set it alight, Nero and the fire of Rome.

Dr G 33:23
In the background, while this story has been playing out between Vinicius and Lygia in the background, we’ve been seeing Nero doing little quirky things here and there. And he’s starting to get a little bit inspired by this idea that he can’t be a true artist unless he experiences the things that he wants to talk about

Dr Rad 33:42
Which to be fair,

Dr G 33:44
Is method, very method.

Dr Rad 33:45
I was gonna say kind of what some people have actually said and still practice to this day.

Dr G 33:50
Yeah, method acting never out of fashion. Nero’s buying in big time.

Dr Rad 33:54
Yeah.

Dr G 33:54
There’s been –

Dr Rad 33:55
You know Stanislavski, tell me about it.

Dr G 33:59
For Nero, there’s this really interesting dynamic that is playing out across this whole film with his relationship with one of his advisors, Petronius, and Petronius is kind of like this – like hilarious, quasi-historical, like there is a Petronius in history.

Dr Rad 34:16
Yes. And he was a friend of Nero’s. Yeah. But in this version, he’s also the uncle of Marcus Vinicius.

Dr G 34:22
Yeah, they’ve taken some liberties and that’s okay. Yeah, but Petronius is this kind of really intelligent figure who is able to say the right thing at the right time, even when it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be the right thing to bring Nero around to a certain perspective.

Dr Rad 34:40
Yeah. And he’s definitely on damage control. Like his whole mission seems to be that I mean, very much looking at himself like

Dr G 34:48
and also looking out for his nephew, Vinicius, as well. Like Nero does have a moment where he spots Lygia and he’s like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I gave away too good a prize.

Dr Rad 34:57
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So Petronius is a all about damage control in the sense that he wants to have a pleasant life, he wants to look after his family. Standard. And then he also seems to be trying to make sure that Rome is not governed too stupidly. So he tries to always talk Nero around to something that would actually be not terrible.

Dr G 35:18
Yeah. But unfortunately for Petronius, he also seems to make maybe a slight error, where he kind of suggests that Nero needs to focus more on his art and things like that.

Dr Rad 35:27
Yeah.

Dr G 35:28
And Nero takes that up seriously, and runs with that. And the problem with that is that Nero then gets into his mind that he needs to see Rome burn in order to be able to create the Rome of his vision.

Dr Rad 35:45
Yeah. And also, you know, that idea of like, reciting a song about Troy, and, you know, writing about that, and that sort of thing, he needs to see it.

Dr G 35:54
Yeah. And it’s like, so Petronius is trying to get him to sort of exceed his own capacity as an artist being like, “you know, you know, you could go beyond Homer, you know, you could go beyond Virgil.” And Nero is kind of like, “how will I do it?” Petronius is like, “you’ve got to live it.” And Nero’s like, “well, if I have to live it, let’s burn the city, so I can live the emotion of it. And then I can build it from the ground up.” And he kind of has this relationship with the people where he needs them. But he kind of dislikes them at the same time. It’s kind of this sort of, they feed his sort of need for attention. But he’s also kind of annoyed with the fact that they’re always there and in the way.

Dr Rad 36:41
Yeah, definitely. And in this version, I think it’s probably clear, there is no doubt that Nero is responsible for lighting a fire. Not personally…

Dr G 36:50
No, but they make it Yeah, yeah. And this is something that is in contradistinction to the real complexities of the ancient evidence.

Dr Rad 36:58
Yeah, which we will, we will get into

Dr G 36:59
Yes so hold that thought. But the film definitely blames Nero. He’s the architect of the fire. He also has an architect with a new plan for Rome constructed for what will be built after the city has burned. So realistically, Nero is to blame here.

Dr Rad 37:13
Definitely. But he soon realised that I mean, I think only all his elite hangers-on they seem to be willing to tolerate Nero’s behaviour, I think up until this point, that this is something else. And so Nero is, you know, obviously feeling very unpopular from multiple angles, and he’s like, I need to do something about this, and therefore, he’s going to pin it on the Christians.

Dr G 37:40
Yes. So this idea in the film comes from Poppaea.

Dr Rad 37:44
Yes, that’s right.

Dr G 37:45
So we have this moment where Rome is on fire at that time, most of Nero’s court is in Antium. Vinicius hears that Rome is burning, realises that Lygia is still there. And even though they’ve had this thing where it’s like they’re clearly not together and it’s not working out. He’s had a chain, he’s realised that he has to go and save her –

Dr Rad 38:06
Of course.

Dr G 38:07

Dr Rad 38:32
Breastplates all the way.

Dr G 38:33
Yeah, and he’s never thought to take them off. Even though he’s not leading an army right now.

Dr Rad 38:37
Apart from that first scene there’s been no reason to do so.

Dr G 38:41
There’s been no, no soldiers under his command. He’s just chilling out in Rome.

Dr Rad 38:44
It’s for good posture.

Dr G 38:45
Yeah, look, he loves it. Yeah. And he turns up, and people are sort of like trying to push him away. But he manages to save people by redirecting them into the sewage system. That’s clever. Yeah. And then he does spot Lygia. And so this is a moment of reunion and all of this sort of thing. Finally, sadly, it does not last, he does end up getting arrested as does Lygia as does Ursus as, as do a whole bunch of people

Dr Rad 39:14
who are Christian

Dr G 39:15
because they’re rounded up because they are considered to be Christian.

Dr Rad 39:18
Yeah.

Dr G 39:18
Because Vinicius is hanging out with Lygia that, that doesn’t help his cause at all. So he gets lumped in with them.

Dr Rad 39:18
Yeah.

Dr G 39:20
So Poppaea has had this amazing idea that the Christians will be blamed.

Dr Rad 39:24
Yeah

Dr G 39:28
For the fire. And then they will set up a whole bunch of games and put them on display in the arena.

Dr Rad 39:40
Sounds like a fabulous evening.

Dr G 39:42
It’s a good Roman time out. You know what I’m saying?

Dr Rad 39:44
Yeah, totally, man.

Dr G 39:47
So there were some very dramatic scenes with a lot of lions.

Dr Rad 39:51
Yeah, well, you know, you don’t want to do things half hearted.

Dr G 39:55
No, but like in terms of I’m just thinking from a like a film perspective, like they were a lot of lions showed on screen,

Dr Rad 40:02
Let’s be real, I don’t want to, I’ve never looked into it because I don’t want to know what may or may not have happened on that set. This is before, really strict regulations are in place about how animals, you know, be treated by the entertainment industry. And given that we’re still in an era where factory farming is somehow okay. I just don’t want to look back. It’s not going to be good news for anybody.

Dr G 40:25
It’s fair enough. But yes, I have some concerns about how many lions were involved. Yeah. Anyway, they bring out the Christians in kind of like groups, and part of what happens in this moment of the film is Nero becomes increasingly agitated because the Christians start singing as he’s, yeah, finding a moment of peace between like the moments where they’re getting slaughtered.

Dr Rad 40:48
Yeah.

Dr G 40:49
And this discomforts him greatly.

Dr Rad 40:51
He doesn’t understand it.

Dr G 40:52
Doesn’t understand it, doesn’t like it. And you know, other people are singing and he’s the singer, really.

Dr Rad 40:58
Yeah. So no, I don’t like living under your spotlight.

Dr G 41:09
I could see him standing up and doing that. Doing doing a sing back. A dramatic scene,

Dr Rad 41:15
Don’t tell me not to live, just sit and putter.

Dr G 41:20
This kind of thing is going he’s not very happy. He kind of wants to get them all out all at once and just get rid of them all. Yes. And Poppaea is like no, no, wait. And he also does an inspection of the bodies. At the end of the first day of the Christian sort of

Dr Rad 41:35
Always this creepy inspection of bodies in these films, I’ve realised.

Dr G 41:39
He wants to see what’s going on, because a lot of them have died with smiles on their faces.

Dr Rad 41:44
Yes.

Dr G 41:45
And this creeps him out.

Dr Rad 41:46
Yeah, well,

Dr G 41:46
And fair enough. I mean people don’t die with smiles on their faces usually.

Dr Rad 41:50
Not horribly in an arena, they don’t.

Dr G 41:52
No.

Dr Rad 41:53
Now he has also managed to round up St. Peter as being a part of

Dr G 41:57
Well, yeah. And so I was just about to get to that. Because parallel to this, yeah. we had Peter, giving a sermon in the caves underneath Rome. Yeah. But then he seems in a an assigned plot kind of element. He seems to be leaving Rome with a young boy,

Dr Rad 42:14
Busy guy.

Dr G 42:14
yeah, busy guy, young kid, and they’re on the road together, and they’re heading out of the city. And Peter is in this moment where he does the famous line, “Quo Vadis, Domine?” Because he doesn’t know where to go next. He doesn’t know what to do next. He’s seeking some guidance, and a light. The light of the sun shimmers through the trees. And it seems that the Lord speaks through the child tells him that he needs to go back to Rome. And that is how he has to save people, otherwise – either Jesus has to come back down, and then do another thing where he gets killed in Rome. And Peter’s like, oh, well, we can’t have that.

Dr Rad 42:58
No.

Dr G 42:58
And he also talks to the child being like, say it again. And kid’s like, “I didn’t say anything.”

Dr Rad 43:06
“So shut up, Mr.”

Dr G 43:07
So we know it’s a miracle. So they turn around and go back to Rome. And Peter appears in the arena, and gives us a speech again, and that’s when he’s arrested. So he speaks on behalf of the Christians. And the crowd is kind of like laughing at him. And he gets arrested and he gets trapped in with the Christians, which is great, because that means that Peter is in the same cell as Lygia and Vinicius. And those two finally get married.

Dr Rad 43:34
What better place to tie the knot? Again, it’s a bit of a trope of the genre. I mean, you know, you think about Diana, Marcellus in “The Robe” True, I don’t think they actually ended up getting married per se. But you know, they got together in their moment of absolute desperation.

Dr G 43:51
Everybody gets together when they’re locked up when you’re on death row.

Dr Rad 43:54
Yeah.

Dr G 43:55
Like this is my best option.

Dr Rad 43:56
Yeah.

Dr G 43:57
And so they are now married, and this makes Poppaea’s plan for them – because she said to Nero save those two, I’ve got something special,

Dr Rad 44:09
I’m sure

Dr G 44:10
And he’s like, “Oh, I love your –

Dr Rad 44:11
“That man is no longer my sexual toy.”

Dr G 44:14
She’s like, “Yeah, I’m feeling rejected by Vinicius. I’m definitely gonna kill him the hard way.” Yeah, she’s like, “Just you wait.” They bring out Lygia all dressed up in this beautiful sort of diaphanous purple robe actually, looking gorgeous. So much Vaseline. Tie her to a post. They bring out Ursus – don’t tie him to a post – and they bring Marcus Vinicius up to the imperial stage tied and chained to a metal post so he can’t get down into the arena.

Dr Rad 44:43
Yeah, he’s gonna have to watch her die.

Dr G 44:45
He’s gonna have to watch her die. And they send out a bull.

Dr Rad 44:49
Sounds nasty.

Dr G 44:50
It’s, it is nasty. I do wonder what happened to the bull. So I hope that the bull was okay.

Dr Rad 44:55
Again, I don’t want to know,

Dr G 44:55
I don’t really want to know either. Ursus takes down the bull. That’s the essence of it.

Dr Rad 45:02
Which is an amazing feat. And obviously not what Nero was expecting. Oh, yeah.

Dr G 45:06
And somebody had said to Nero, while they were like sort of watching on, “Look, if Ursus is able to take out the bull. I mean, you’ll have to let you have to let Lygia off.”

Dr Rad 45:17
Yeah. And then you know that that’s in keeping with what we know about it, how the arena works. If the crowd are wowed by a particular performance, they’ll probably ask the patron of the games to please spare the person. Yeah.

Dr G 45:28
And as predicted, the crowd is wild for Ursus’ success. And they’re like, they’re all – they’re all like, “yes, you have to let him off!”

Dr Rad 45:36
“Set him free! Her too! Set the, both free!”

Dr G 45:41
And Nero has his most dramatic moment of doing – almost as if he’s going to go one way and with the support of the crowd, and then goes the other way. And everybody turns and it’s chaos. And it’s at this moment, where the other subplot that I have not mentioned, really comes into play. Yeah, so in parallel to some of this stuff happening, before Vinicius is arrested, he and Petronius are colluding together with others to get Galba into power. And so I’m finding it I’m getting emotional. I’m getting emotional. So they’ve organised for Galba to come with some other legions and basically depose Nero with enough signatures Galba will accept the imperial leadership.

Dr Rad 46:37
And wouldn’t you know, they turn up right about now.

Dr G 46:40
Right at the moment, where Nero has decided that Ursus will have to die.

Dr Rad 46:45
Yeah.

Dr G 46:46
The army turns up.

Dr Rad 46:47
Yeah.

Dr G 46:48
In support of Galba. Are they’re like, “Galba is your new emperor!” Vinicius is down there yelling to everybody, “It’s over!”. And Nero has to run away. Poppaea runs away. Yeah, they go back. They retreat back to the palace. Yeah, that doesn’t go well for either of them.

Dr Rad 47:05
No, because Nero blames Poppaea for this whole mess.

Dr G 47:09
Yeah, he’s like, “You were the one who wanted to blame the Christians for the fire. And now look where we are.”

Dr Rad 47:13
Yeah.

Dr G 47:14
And then proceeds to strangle her, which she was not expecting.

Dr Rad 47:17
No, but is somewhat historically accurate in that Nero did murder Poppaea, but not for that reason, or in that way.

Dr G 47:25
Yes. And so Poppaea’s then dead, and he sort of retreats further into the palace. And then there is this shadow in his room. And he’s, like, clearly, clearly scared. Like, this. Is it? Somebody’s gonna kill me? And it turns out that it’s Acte.

Dr Rad 47:45
Loyal to the end. Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 47:48
She’s like, “I told you, I’d be here at the end.” And he’s like, “I didn’t believe you. I thought I told you to go away?”

Dr Rad 47:56
Yeah. But of course, she’s not there because she’s gonna make everything goes away. I mean, she is just a freed woman slash slave woman slash something.

Dr G 48:07
She gives him the opportunity to take his life with dignity, rather than being trampled down by

Dr Rad 48:15
The Roman way.

Dr G 48:16
Yes. You know, do something honorable with your life.

Dr Rad 48:19
Yeah.

Dr G 48:19
He’s not able to do it.

Dr Rad 48:21
No.

Dr G 48:22
He asks her to do that. And she does.

Dr Rad 48:25
Yeah.

Dr G 48:26
So that’s, I think devastating for her because she’s still in love with him.

Dr Rad 48:30
Yeah. But a fitting end for Nero. But of course, we do get a happy ending, because Vinicius and Lygia have managed to come out unscathed, basically, apart from maybe being traumatised, but

Dr G 48:43
And they seem to be heading out of Rome with Ursus and the kid.

Dr Rad 48:43
Yeah, they’re heading to live on Vinicius’ property in Sicily. The remainder of their lives undisturbed. In spite of their Christianity, I’m basing that on what the novel says.

Dr G 49:02
Nice.

Dr Rad 49:03
Yeah.

Dr G 49:04
And that’s the film.

Dr Rad 49:06
Wow. And we didn’t even mention that Petronius committed suicide in the midst of all that.

Dr G 49:10
Yeah. And has Seneca deliveries letter which is scathing to Nero.

Dr Rad 49:15
Yeah.

Dr G 49:15
I love the weeping vessel, “Bring the weeping vessel.” And Nero puts one tear from each eye into the jar and he’s like, “Seal this, to memorialise my feelings for Petronius.”

Dr Rad 49:15
And look this is the issue with Quo Vadis. It’s a it’s a massive novel. It’s a massive film every time you do it.

Thank you for listening to this special episode of The Partial Historians. We’d like to thank all of our patreons for their support and allowing us to make these additional episodes especially Nick, who requested a discussion of Quo Vadis. If you too would like early access to our bonus shows, please consider becoming a patreon. This has been part one of our coverage of Quo Vadis so stay tuned and Part Two. We’ll be with you shortly. Our sources and credits for the episode can be found on our website. And until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part One appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Welcome to 423 BCE and your introduction to the one and only Sextus Tempanius! You may not know his name just yet, but we’re pretty sure you’ll be as impressed with him as we are. Suffice it to say, 423 BCE is one of the more interesting and dramatic years of the decade.

After a confusing tangent about the Samnites and Capua brought to us courtesy of Livy, we return to Rome and war with the Volscians. The Roman forces are led by the patrician, Gaius Sempronius Atratinus. However, Sempronius might be placing too much faith in the gods when it comes to war…

With fortune seemingly turning against the Romans, a plebeian hero steps into the spotlight. Sextus Tempanius brings the cavalry to the rescue of their forces. Join us to find out how the Tenacious Tempanius made the Romans swoon.

Episode 137 – The Tenacious Tempanius

A re-enactor dressed as a Roman cavalryman. The gear is not necessarily historically accurate for this period, but it gives the vibe!
Image courtesy of Jacqueline Ross via Flickr.

Sextus Tempanius is described in some of our sources as a decurio. In this context, a decurio is a commander of a decuria of cavalry. A decuria is the Latin term for a division of ten. So a decurio is a low level commander in charge of the ten riders that make up his decuria. Although we can’t be precise about the exact scope of the Roman cavalry in this period of the early Republic, there is later thought to have been 30 lots of ten riders to a cavalry legion (300 riders). So for three hundred horsemen there were thirty internal leaders. The other important division was the grouping of 3 decuriones (3×10) horsemen together into a formation known as a turma. Depending on the battle situation, the Romans had the capacity to divide a legion down to collectives of 30 or 10 horsemen with their own command structure.

Want to refresh your knowledge of 424 BCE? Check out our previous episode.

Thanks to the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Sound effects courtesy of Fesliyan Studios and Orange Free Sounds and BBC Sound Effects.

North face of the Mausoleum of Glanum, southern France, showing a cavalry battle, c. 40 BCE. This relief shows cavalry in action well after the period under discussion in this episode, but it does give you a sense of the movement and how Romans in the late Republic conceived of the cavalry.
Source: Wikimedia Commons. Photographer: Cancre

Lightly edited for clarity!

Dr Rad 0:27
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to another episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your host, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:36
And I am Dr. G. And we have been tracing Rome’s history from the founding of the city for years now. And we’re many years into Rome’s history as well. So that’s exciting news. We’re keeping pace with the events as they happen.

Dr Rad 0:52
We are I mean, the 420s are just like streaming by me. I can’t I feel like I can’t keep up with moving so quickly they are flying by I think this is a real indication of what happens when we lose some of our source material.

Dr G 1:05
Particularly Dionysius, who is, shall we say, more of a reverse somewhat of a gas bag? Indeed, I hope he does come back though. I’m looking forward to hearing from him again.

Dr Rad 1:16
It’s been too long.

Dr G 1:17
Look, I suspect we’ve only got fragments from here on down.

Dr Rad 1:22
I know but whenever he pops in to say hello, you know, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

Dr G 1:28
Prepare to be excited because he might be popping in with a fragment in this very episode.

Dr Rad 1:34
Well, you know, what, if any years I wouldn’t be surprised that it’s this year that we’re about to discuss, which is 423 BCE. But before we get into 423 Dr G., oo god, so rhymy. I think we need to pause and recap. And see what happened in 424 BCE.

Dr G 1:53
Well, I will really just be throwing back to you. Because 424. I had almost literally no evidence to the extent that I had to talk about what was Rome’s history of founding colonies in the very early Republic as far as we can discern.

Dr Rad 2:08
Look, fair enough, fair enough. Look 424 It wasn’t perhaps the most memorable of years we’ve had quite a few of these weird years in the 420s where it seems like kind of not a lot might be going on. But we did have a little bit of our old favourites, which was troublesome tribunes. There’s nothing that we love more than a troublesome tribune.

Dr G 2:31
It’s true. It’s true. We do like troublemakers of the plebeian persuasion.

Dr Rad 2:37
We definitely do. So we had some tribunes that were complaining about the lack of plebeians that were earning themselves magistracies, even though technically, with this option of military tribune with consular power, technically, we should be seeing plenty of plebeians in power.

Dr G 2:59
And yet somehow they are absent. The concerns are real.

Dr Rad 3:04
Yes, exactly. And the tribunes were so fed up with the lack of plebeians even running for office, that they were threatening to say, You know what, let’s just get rid of this whole idea altogether. And we’ll just have the patricians forever, and that would maybe make you happy. Wouldn’t it?

Dr G 3:21
It’s such a typical patrician solution to a problem.

Dr Rad 3:25
No, that was the tribune.

Dr G 3:26
Oh no!

Dr Rad 3:27
Yeah, they were like, you wait, we’re just so like, it’s it’s actually worse that we have the option. And yet nobody’s doing it. Because then that seems to imply that actually, we’re useless. But he is worthy? Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 3:41
Why are we even here, guys, if you’re not going to make use of us?

Dr Rad 3:45
Precisely. And so they’re proposing that and with finally, finally, they have got through to the plebeians. And we actually have some opinions allegedly running for office, and campaigning on the kinds of measures that we would normally see, plebeians run with so things like, I think that they’re campaigning on some sort of land allocation policy, you know, that maybe we’re going to share it out a bit more fairly than we have in the past. That there’s also going top be a tax placed on the landowners, you know, classic, lower class kind of stuff.

Dr G 4:18
You know, we should tax the people that have money, not the people who don’t have money.

Dr Rad 4:23
Yes, although, once again, I have to stop myself, Dr. G, I’m falling into that old pattern. We have to remember that some of the plebeians are very wealthy. It’s just that they don’t have a stranglehold on power, like the patricians seem to have.

Dr G 4:38
This is true. It does turn out that it’s more about who you were born to, rather than how much wealth you possess.

Dr Rad 4:47
Exactly. And that opens up all sorts of doors like priesthoods and consulships and whatnot.

Dr G 4:53
Alright, so that’s 424 BCE,

Dr Rad 4:57
That is 424.

Dr G 4:57
Okay, so let’s let’s hit the ground running With 423 BCE.

Dr Rad 5:13
All right for 423 BCE, Dr. G. And since I know that Dionysius is still breaking your heart with his broken pieces of source material, I’m going to let you tell me who the magistrates are for this year.

Dr G 5:25
Oh, well, thank you. There is a little bit of interest when it comes to who we’ve got in our sort of the players for this year. So we’ve got a couple of consuls, which are a nice change of affairs really, we haven’t

Dr Rad 5:40
Well, that’s sad to me though because it suggests that all that stuff I just talked about didn’t come to pass.

Dr G 5:47
Those people put themselves up for election and did not get voted in.

Dr Rad 5:51
This is the thing. I get this is where our source material makes no sense. How would they be running for office? If it’s not military tribunes with consular power? Yeah, can’t run for the consulship. So

Dr G 6:01
Precisely. I mean, we do have real issues with the source material. There is no doubt about it.

Dr Rad 6:07
Yeah, we really do.

Dr G 6:08
Yeah, the plebeians not being allowed at this stage as far as we’re aware to run for the consulship. So maybe the elections got a little bit messy, and maybe they changed their minds about what kind of elections they were having, you know, I’m just trying to paper over what are our gaping holes of logic and no material?

Dr Rad 6:26
Maybe, maybe there’s no such thing as the consulship at this point in time.

Dr G 6:32
Horror. Shock.

Dr Rad 6:34
Blasphemy. Anyway, I’ll skate over that.

Dr G 6:37
Well, okay. So there are two men who are more in charge than anybody else. One of them is Gaius Sempronius Atratinus

Dr Rad 6:46
Hmmm, welll I recognise these names.

Dr G 6:50
Well, Atratinus is an interesting name, because that raises the question about whether patrician and plebeian as it happens, because Atratinus, in the later centuries of the Republic is an exclusively plebeian name but, in this early period, we’re pretty sure that this is a patrician name only.

Dr Rad 7:15
Dashed my hopes Dr G., how will I carry on for the rest of the episode?

Dr G 7:19
Well, I hope you can pick yourself up and continue on but if you can’t, I’ll just keep going through the roll call sheet. That will be the whole episode. Please save yourself. So Atratinus definitely has plebeian flavour about it, which might explain some of the narrative choices of our analysts historians for the previous year, we like this guy, plebeian. And the scholarship seems to fall down on the side of probably not at this stage. But later on, we’ll get the reemergence of this name under a plebeian gens. So that will happen. So our second console is Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.

Dr Rad 8:10
Yeah

Dr G 8:11
And so this family has come up quite a bit. So one of the fabulous Fabii is back. And we’ve seen quite a lot of the Vibulanii as well. But this guy doesn’t appear to have held any positions as yet. So this seems to be his first foray into the consulship. So that’s exciting news for him.

Dr Rad 8:30
It is indeed.

Dr G 8:31
Go Quintus! We also have a named attribute of the plebs, a guy called Gaius Iunius. Who I suspect you might have more to say about, and we also have a prefect. So a military position, a guy called Sextus Tempanius.

Dr Rad 8:54
Yes, I have much to say about this young man. Very, I’m very excited to talk about him. But I love the fact that he’s named as a prefect because it gives me images of him in a very sharp navy blazer with little badges on it. Maybe that’s just because I’m a school teacher.

Dr G 9:11
He also is apparently a decurio, more specifically of the cavalry under Sempronius. So this roll call sheet hints to me that there is some military action that happens in 423 BCE. But realistically, all I’ve got are a couple of fragments, one from Dionysius of Halicarnassus – praise be – a little snippet from Valerius Maximus. And then I’m basing all the rest of my knowledge from a little bit of extra scholarship research that I’ve done.

Dr Rad 9:45
Well, allow me allow me to step in because this is a banner year for Livy. I mean, we haven’t had this much detail and I don’t even know how long honestly, who knew that 423 room was the place to be.

Dr G 9:59
I’m excited now. Livy does tell a good story. So I’m going to strap myself in.

Dr Rad 10:03
He does so you can jump in with your fragments when appropriate, but not a moment earlier.

Dr G 10:09
Noted.

Dr Rad 10:11
All right. So, as you’ve noted, I have the same consuls that you do. So this is good. So we start off our story with an Etruscan city, Dr. G. In fact, one I don’t really recall us talking much about in its original form, and that is Volturnum.

Dr G 10:27
Ah, okay. So in contrast to you already, I have reference to a Volscian city called Verrugo.

Dr Rad 10:36
Oh, okay.

Dr G 10:37
And this, they may be the same place.

Dr Rad 10:39
Well, okay, so Volturnum actually is now Capua. When I say now, I mean, obviously in the Roman sense later on,

Dr G 10:52
Capua is in Campania, isn’t?

Dr Rad 10:55
It is, yes.

Dr G 10:57
Okay, that’s much further south than the hypothetical Verrugo that I have reference to, which is to the south east of Rome, but past the Frascati sort of region. So you’ve got to go beyond the hills. There’s those volcanic hills to the southeast of Rome, and you go a little bit further past them. Keep going southeast, and then you hit Verrugo, which today, we think, is in the location of modern Colle Ferro, and Sacco. But it’s not as far as Capua.

Dr Rad 11:32
I’m so glad that you have travelled so extensively in Italy because I’m just sitting here going I know nothing about geography.

Dr G 11:40
Look, I wish

Dr Rad 11:40
Just as well I’m a history teacher!

Dr G 11:44
Maps, schmaps, maps,

Dr Rad 11:45
Maps, schmaps, colouring pencils, don’t need them. Anyway, no offence for any geography teachers out there actually love colouring pencils. So apparently, this now later in time, like Livy’s time, is Capua. And the reason why Livy kicks off with this account is because this city is captured by the Samnites, Dr G.

Dr G 12:08
Hmm, all right, I’ll hold on to that detail.

Dr Rad 12:11
Indeed. Now Livy goes on a bit of a tangent explaining how this city gained the name of Capua and he has several theories. Typical Livy so the first is that it’s from “cappis”. Oh, sounds bad. Oh, cat

Dr G 12:28
Is it from cat piss because that’s a bit-

Dr Rad 12:30
No no, I’m going to try that again. Cap piece. Still sounds bad. From its champagne country, and that’s not champagne, like the drink. But basically,

Dr G 12:42
Just sparkling cat-piss

Dr Rad 12:43
It’s sounding more and more appetising every time. I really should have tried saying this out loud before I tried to explain it to you. But apparently, what Livy is trying to get at here is some sort of word which means like open country or some sort of plain or battlefield, something like that, okay,

Dr G 12:54
I suspect then we might be talking about very different places then. Because Verrugo comes through in the Latin from “verruca” which, which is not what you might suspect that is a wart on the side. But like it’s yeah, like, almost exactly the same. But from this idea of a “locus editus asperque”, which is a “high-lying rough place”. So this kind of like mountainous rocky outcrop. So it almost sounds like the very opposite.

Dr Rad 13:41
Yeah, could not be more different. Because I also have other people saying, No, Livy is wrong. It actually probably stems from the word for orchid or garden.

Dr G 13:51
Oh, well, that’s much nicer than cat piss, isn’t it?

Dr Rad 13:54
It does sound as if I mean, like, I’m really misrepresenting this place, whatever it is. But I also have other scholarship, which suggests that it might come from “acapitae”, and maybe once this place was the head of the Etruscan League. Oh really? Like “capite” like head

Dr G 14:12
Like kaput?

Dr Rad 14:13
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. But also it is possible that it could come from this idea of like a plain or something like that. It could also be something that arose just because this is what the people who live there were called and then you know, the place name came from the people that lived there. Those people have hands and they live on flat land.

Dr G 14:37
It’s a no brainer, really what we should call this place.

Dr Rad 14:40
Yeah, exactly. Like it. Or third possibility may be a true version or Etruscan origin from a family the gens Capia.

Dr G 14:52
Oh, fancy.

Dr Rad 14:53
Yeah. So really, what I’m reading here in the scholarship and Livy is that we have no freaking idea why this place is ended. It kept lots of theories, no real evidence, indeed, but to return to the Samnites and their issue with this place. So I find this the most hilarious military story I’ve ever heard so far that saying something because we talk about the military a lot. The Etruscans apparently, are just so exhausted. They let the Samnites come in.

Dr G 15:23
Or you just imagined some Etruscans were just laying down in a faint being like, I can’t go on, take the city, if you must, I’m just gonna stay right here.

Dr Rad 15:32
That’s basically what they do. They’re like, what? The Samnites at our gates, for goodness sakes, just let them come in and take the place because quite frankly, I don’t have any fight left in.

Dr G 15:42
You know what, I can’t be bothered defending this place, and I won’t.

Dr Rad 15:46
And so they seem to strike a deal and that they’re like, Look, if we don’t put up any resistance, can we just share the city and the fields equally? And a semi so like, yeah, I guess that’s sounds pretty good. We don’t have to stab anyone.

Dr G 16:01
Let’s not fight about it. Let’s just split it in half.

Dr Rad 16:04
Yeah. But Dr. G. You know, when something sounds too good to be true. Often is, yeah. So the Samnites move in, they start sharing the city in the fields with the Etruscans. But they’re really just playing the waiting game, Dr. G. Because one day when the Etruscans are suffering from the after effects of a holiday, read, eaten too much and have a massive hangover. The Samnites wake up in the middle of the night, and kill them all. Oh, god. Yeah, it sounds very Trojan War, doesn’t it?

Dr G 16:41
Well, yes. I mean, the Etruscans did just let them in, didn’t they?

Dr Rad 16:44
Well, yeah, they didn’t have to pretend with the whole horse thing. But nonetheless, like the whole waiting till everybody’s asleep, and then killing everybody.

Dr G 16:51
This might explain the Trojan name theory as well.

Dr Rad 16:54
Potentially, potentially. I mean, we are. We all know that the Etruscans of the Romans are related to the Trojans, right? That’s what they like to tell us. That’s what they like to tell us. Now the consuls that we’ve just been talking about. They happen to take up their office just after this happened. And I’m given the very specific date of the 13th of December.

Dr G 17:15
Oh, goodness. Okay. Happy birthday, everybody.

Dr Rad 17:18
Indeed yeah. So anyway, so they’ve taken up their office, the Romans receive intelligence from their own representatives, because they have spies everywhere. That the Volscians and now planning to invade them. Oh, yeah. Shocking. So I know. It’s military action just everywhere. All right.

Dr G 17:37
So and this is unconnected with the whole Samnites taking over the other spot? situation? Is it or is this interconnected?

Dr Rad 17:44
I don’t think it’s particularly connected. I think it’s more just, you know, something horrible. That happens. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so the Latins and Hernicians arrive and tell the Romans, “Hey, have you heard the Volscians are planning to invade?” And the Romans are saying, “yes, as a matter of fact, we already knew that thanks to our spies, but good work, everybody. Glad to see we’re on the ball.” But the Latins and Hernicians mostly wanted to speak to the Romans because they were spooked. The Volscians just seemed far too energetic. And they were like, This is worrying.

Dr G 18:21
They’re moving around a lot. And it has me quite concerned.

Dr Rad 18:24
Yeah, it’s it is like they’re just carrying out the levy. You know, managers like you know, what we need to get into things we need to make sure that we have courage to deal with this threat, it seems extremely worrying that they’re levying so much.

Dr G 18:41
Yeah, I mean, obviously, if they’re leving, they’re about to send them against somebody.

Dr Rad 18:45
So Gaius Sempronius one of our consuls, he comes into the play here 100% has faith that fortune will see him through this mess, because fortunes never faded for anyone and fortune loves the Romans. He of course had led Rome to victory before on the battlefield. So he takes a fairly careless approach to organising the Romans. He’s like Yeah, yeah, I get your the Volscians are a problem. It looks like we’re facing issues. But don’t you worry guys. This, I so got this. I got this so much. I don’t even really need to care about how things are being organised.

Dr G 19:25
Trust me, the gods are on my side.

Dr Rad 19:28
Exactly. Which means that Sempronius ends up entering battle without really thinking through his battle plan.

Dr G 19:39
Yeah, who needs a plan?

Dr Rad 19:41
Who needs a plan? I mean, I know I like to wing things every now and then but generally not when people’s lives are on the line.

Dr G 19:47
Well, you and Sempronius are clearly not going to get along.

Dr Rad 19:51
Exactly. Now. The big issue I think, with his lack of battle plan is that he has not placed his cavalry in a strategic position. As Livy says, “his lines were not strengthened with reserves”.

Dr G 20:07
Oh, goodness, okay. This is problematic. I mean the cavalry is both a very powerful element of any military outfit at this time period. But it is also a heightened risk in some senses like the ways in which a cavalry is vulnerable is useful to know. And maybe to plan for.

Dr Rad 20:30
I don’t know if you heard me Dr. G. But fortune is on our side. So just like chill out.

Dr G 20:37
Praise be, Fortuna, and all your good works. I look forward to you winning the battle for me.

Dr Rad 20:43
Yeah, and now here’s my other favourite detail. Apparently they’re so disorganised that the Roman battle cries weren’t even any good.

Dr G 20:51
Oh what? They didn’t organise their songs properly.

Dr Rad 20:54
I know they’re all over the shop, Dr. G. 1234. We know what is freaking battle? Wait, that doesn’t rhyme what’s going on?

Dr G 21:07
Are we to extrapolate from this, that every time Rome has gone to war so far, they’ve come up with new battle songs?

Dr Rad 21:16
I think we are and I think it means that I mean, okay. As a school teacher, I’m going to tell you a little story. Whenever we have swimming carnivals, and athletic carnivals, at most schools I’ve been at there is usually time allocated at some point for the students in their respective houses to practice their chanting. Now, if schools and school children do this, I’m starting to picture the Romans getting together and be like, Alright, guys, this is getting really serious. Some of us won’t be coming home. It’s time to practice our battle cry. What are we going to chat this time, guys.

Dr G 21:51
But I feel like that it would be more akin to perhaps, not disparaging the chanting athletics carnivals, and swimming, carnivals, and so forth. That is a real and genuine thing. But in addition to that, there’s usually some tried and true chants that have a historical kind of impetus behind them that are part of the way in which you’re brought into your particular sporting house, or your sporting team. I’m thinking particularly about football and the way that the fandom has various songs that they already know and have learned that are for their team. So they’ve got one for when they’re going really well. They’ve got one for when they want to sort of pep up the players. They’ve got one for when they’re losing, but they want to disparage the opposition. And so the idea that they’re coming up with new chants all the time for every single battle seems just it’s blowing my mind a little bit because I feel like surely there would be some of the old classics mixed in.

Dr Rad 22:51
I’m sure. I’m sure there are but it seems that no matter what they’re doing you Oh, doesn’t matter. It isn’t any good.

Dr G 22:58
It is organised and we can thank Sempronius for that.

Dr Rad 23:02
Yeah, they’re like you g l why you ain’t got no excuse. You ugly? Yeah, yeah. You ugly? Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 23:13
Oh, those Romans.

Dr Rad 23:14
Yeah. Anyway, so the Volscians are pretty confident after they hear these pathetic efforts at battle cries from the Romans. They’re like, Oh, my God, they haven’t rehearsed guys, we’ve got this in the bag. Now, the Romans don’t really know what to do. I think they’re feeling it. They know they’re unprepared. So they’re looking around for a hero. Because they’re very timid. When they go into battle, they just don’t really know what’s happening. It seems like they haven’t got you know, adequate leadership. And very quickly, things turn against them, because their heart’s just not in it. They don’t have confidence. I mean, this is just a classic lesson. I mean, the Romans are some of the most arrogant, confident people I’ve ever met. And yet, even they are proving that if you don’t have your head in the right place, and you’re not projecting confidence, people out there are going to eat you alive, they will know, they will know. So the frontline ends up retreating, and they even leave their standards behind.

Dr G 24:09
Okay, this is shocking news. I mean, I’m so sad. I have no source material for this year now. Losing the standards. That is, that is the worst thing that can happen basically.

Dr Rad 24:21
I know and I thought might be good to remind our listeners and you’re the perfect person to do it. Why the standards are so important.

Dr G 24:27
Well, the standards, my friends, my dear listeners, are so important because they represent almost like the energy of the entire group that works under that standard, like it’s got a vested totemic symbolism about it. So it’s the sort of thing that you can sort of galvanise people around. You can use it to indicate where people are on the battlefield. Obviously, it’s quite visual and striking. But the really significant thing is the sense in which there’s a characteristic about it that’s really imbued with the character of the men who fight under that standard. So, I would imagine that things like war cries and things like that may actually incorporate references to their own standards and so forth and so on in order to emphasise that relationship. So, there is a quasi-religious divine element to the standards. And so when they are lost, there is a sense in which the whole character of that particular unit is broken down and cannot be reunified until they get that standard back.

Dr Rad 25:34
Now, this sounds obviously terrible, and it sounds like the Volscians are just you know, shoo in for victory, but don’t write the Romans off just yet, Dr. G. While the Volscians are definitely prevailing at this point in time, the Romans aren’t in like a full on retreat. They just like confused and dropping back and just trying to stay alive at this point in time. The Volscians, of course, are pursuing the advantage and they’re really pushing on. But Livy makes sure to emphasise that the rumours are more being killed and running away, which makes me certain that they were in fact running away.

Dr G 26:11
I was gonna say, I mean, that’s when you get killed the most is when you’re running away. Yeah, you’ve exposed your backside to the enemy.

Dr Rad 26:19
I know. But I don’t feel like Livy has it in him to actually record the Romans acting like that. He’s like, Oh, yeah, they’re being totally cut down. But they’re not running away.

Dr G 26:28
Oh, Livy always trying to save Rome’s reputation.

Dr Rad 26:31
I know that’s purely my own instinct there. Nobody’s told me that. Anyway, so more and more Romans are falling back because the battle is really falling apart for them. What is our consul Sempronius doing about it. Sweet F A, Dr. G. He’s trying really hard to inspire them. And he’s getting angry with them being like, turn around for goodness sakes, my God get back at their fortunes on our side, you idiot. But his anger is doing nothing. And I’m going to directly quote my translation of Livy cuz I really liked this sentence, “There was no virtue either in his authority, or in his dignity”.

Dr G 27:09
Oh, snap.

Dr Rad 27:12
I know. I know. That’s a burden on so many levels.

Dr G 27:17
Oh, I don’t know if Sempronius coming back from this to be honest.

Dr Rad 27:21
Just you wait, Dr. G. All right. So the Romans were at that point finally, where they were about to commit the worst sin possible and all turn their backs on the enemy, thus exposing them to being wounded or killed in the back as they run away. The shame, the shame,

Dr G 27:40
There’s nothing nothing less dignifying in terms of virtus for a Roman to get wounded on the back.

Dr Rad 27:46
But then, Dr. G, our hero comes into the story. A cavalry decurion name Sextus Tempanius saves the day with his amazing courage. Now a little background on what a decurion is. So as far as I could figure out at decurion is in command of 10 men. So it’s not just a clever name. And he seems to be in a similar position to a centurion. But just for the cavalry. Not the infantry, which is what the centurion is usually in charge of.

Dr G 28:21
All right, sounds fancy. So he’s in charge of 10 horsemen, essentially.

Dr Rad 28:25
Yeah, so apparently, there would be three two decurions in a squadron, which is called a terma. And there are 10 terma in three centuries of horse, which would go along with a legion. Thank you very much notes in my Loeb translation.

Dr G 28:41
So a terma would have 30 cavalry, plus the three decurio.

Dr Rad 28:49
Yeah

Dr G 28:49
And then how many is that in the century?

Dr Rad 28:52
Then there are 10 termae in three centuries, which is far too much math for me to do publicly because that means dividing things up.

Dr G 29:00
No, no, that’s 30 by 10. So there’s 300.

Dr Rad 29:03
Right, excellent. Let’s stick with that.

Dr G 29:06
It’s a lot of horses. I’m just trying to visualise like how many horses here? I really did. That’s quite a lot of horses.

Dr Rad 29:13
It is but that’s that’s saying that you have three centuries. I don’t know how many people we have here right now.

Dr G 29:17
That’s true.

Dr Rad 29:18
Anywho the other weird little detail I’m going to throw in there is that the name Tempanius is very unusual. It seems that nobody else has it.

Dr G 29:28
Hmm. Well, that is not a vote of confidence in favour of this story being true then.

Dr Rad 29:35
Pish posh, Dr G, this guy is about to be a plebeian hero.

Dr G 29:39
Okay, I might bring in Dionysius’ fragment here.

Dr Rad 29:44
Okay do it.

Dr G 29:45
Not because I think it fits where we’re at in the narrative, because it’s not at all clear to me from what you’ve told me where this might fit, but I’ll just give it to you and you might have some ideas about where it goes.

Dr Rad 29:58
Okay

Dr G 29:58
So he’s talking sbout Sempronius and Sempronius has learned that the enemy is coming up in the rear.

Dr Rad 30:06
Uh huh.

Dr G 30:07
And he’s despaired of being able to turn back with the men, right? And he’s also concerned about being surrounded by the enemy on all sides.

Dr Rad 30:18
Interesting, okay.

Dr G 30:19
And so there is a sense that Sempronius at this point, decides to see if they can take the high ground, right? Because like if we’re going to have to defend ourselves, and we’re going to get surrounded, we need to get to the top of that little hill over there as fast as we can.

Dr Rad 30:38
Okay, I see where your story fits in. Continue.

Dr G 30:41
That is my entire fragment.

Dr Rad 30:42
Oh, okay. All right. All right. Well, let me let me I’ll show you where your story fits in. Here we go. So Sextus Tempanius shouts to the cavalry, that anybody who wants to save or needs to get down off his horse right now. Now the men obey him as though he was the consul which of course he is not. He’s just a humble decurion and he tells them that they are the ones that can save everything now all they have to do is follow him into battle. And he cries out show Romans and Volscians that when you are mounted, no cavalry are your equals, nor any infantry when you fight on foot. And then men are like, amazing. I love this. Let’s do it.

Dr G 31:26
But it also feels like it doesn’t really make a lot of sense, does it? I mean, he’s just said to the cavalry, dismount and fight as if your infantry.

Dr Rad 31:34
Yeah, so he’s saying, let’s show everyone that we’re amazing when we’re cavalry. And we’re also amazing when we’re infantry.

Dr G 31:40
They’ve been losing. Well, they’ve been cavalry.

Dr Rad 31:42
No, no, no, they haven’t been in the right spot. Yeah, you don’t understand, they’ve been undermined by Sempronius.

Dr G 31:49
I see. My visualisation of this battle is all over the shop.

Dr Rad 31:54
Well, I think that that makes everyone involved because it is obviously a chaotic battle.

Dr G 31:58
Everybody’s yeah, there’s a lot of chaos.

Dr Rad 32:00
So under Sextus Tempanius, he manages to lead them wherever the hell he wants on the battlefield, because they are, they’re almost in like berserker mode Dr. G, to use a problematic term from the Vikings for no apparent reason. And they make their way to the most desperate part of the battle, the Romans would not have been able to win without these guys on the battlefield. This is clear. Now the Volscian general sees them in action, and he’s like, “Whoa, those guys cannot be stopped”. So he ordered his troops to allow the superstar Romans to gain ground with this clever strategy of allowing them to gain so much ground that they could be cut off from everyone else. And this is where I think your story is going to start to come, it works. They are cut off, and they are unable to break through. The remainder of the Roman army could not and would not, however, allow them to be lost, they are determined to come to their aid and push through. Now the Volscians are facing attack from two sides. Tempanius and his little band of followers, they managed to establish themselves on a mound and they sort of position themselves in a circle and they defend themselves there. This battle is going on for ever so long that it actually becomes night.

Dr G 33:30
Oh, goodness. Okay, I know this, this actually taps into the other single piece of evidence that I have, which is from Valerius Maximus.

Dr Rad 33:39
So the consuls are determined to keep fighting as long as it was possible because right now, the battle does not have a clear outcome. It is just the most confusing battle I think we’ve ever talked about.

Dr G 33:52
And now that it’s nighttime, it’s only going to get more confusing, I would suspect.

Dr Rad 33:56
Yeah. So each side in their camps are terrified because they don’t really know what is happening, who’s one who’s lost what’s happening. So they both decided to abandon their wounded and some of their baggage which would be in their camps, so that they can retreat to the nearest hills. Okay. And this is where I think there’s there’s some, you know, tie in with what you were saying about the hill thing. But the mound with Tempanius and his men, that continues to be attacked until after midnight.

Dr G 34:26
Oh, goodness.

Dr Rad 34:28
I know this is a crazy long battle. Now when Tempanius hears that the Roman camp had been abandoned. I don’t know how he heard that. Maybe someone shouted it out really loudly because this is maybe a smaller scale battle than it sounds. It obviously makes it sound like the Romans have been defeated and they’ve just fled. You know, they’ve panicked and they’ve just gone. Tempanius is really worried about an ambush taking place at this point in time. So he takes a few men to check out the situation. I don’t know how he manages to do this, but apparently he manages to

Dr G 35:02
It’s dark. I don’t know.

Dr Rad 35:05
I guess so. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they’re in a circle and they’re defending the amount so maybe it’s not like full on like, ah, Hollywood fighting all this time.

Dr G 35:16
People have got to be tired. It’s more like somebody else being like, Oh,

Dr Rad 35:23
Yeah. Now Tempanius stops along the way to chat to some wounded Volscians as you do. And he realises that their camp is also been deserted.

Dr G 35:32
Wait a minute.

Dr Rad 35:34
Yeah. So he calls out to the rest of his men. And he’s like, let’s go to the Roman camp. Okay, so they all go to the Roman camp. And everything’s very abandoned, and it’s looking very sad. However, Tempanius does not want the Volscians to find out about the sad state of the Roman camp, because of course, they would naturally attack. So Tempanius took as many wounded as he could, and leaves for Rome – he has no idea where Sempronius, the consul, has actually retreated to or gone. Meanwhile, the people back in Rome have heard that the battle is not going very well. And people are already mourning the losses because they kind of presume that a lot of people are dead, particularly people in the cavalry. They think it’s really bad news. Now, other consul, Fabius has obviously been keeping charge of the city, and he’s keeping watch at the gates and he’s trying to reassure the Romans who are panicking, but then he sees cavalry off in a distance and he’s like, Oh, this can’t be good. But as the cavalry get closer, guess who it is?

Dr G 36:45
Is it -?

Dr Rad 36:46
It’s Tempanius!

Dr G 36:47
I was gonna say I’m like it’s either Sempronius or Tempanius.

Dr Rad 36:50
Yeah, it’s Tempanius. And everyone’s like – whoo – everyone’s starts partying. The women don’t even care about their appearance. They just in the streets, throwing themselves into the arms of their men like, “Hurray, you’re not dead after all – Yay!”.

Dr G 37:07
Okay.

Dr Rad 37:07
Yeah, I think I should pause and ask you about your piece of evidence from Valerius Maximus.

Dr G 37:11
Yeah, like, I’ll give you the piece of evidence. It’s there’s not a lot and it is confusing, because Okay. One, first of all, Tempanius is never mentioned at all. So right, I have no idea who this guy is. But we have a reference to a badge of glory that must be rendered to Rome’s young warriors. So okay, the consul Gaius Sempronius Atratinus is unsuccessful in battling with the Volsci at this place called Verrugo.

Dr Rad 37:46
Right.

Dr G 37:47
This may be the place where your battle is at with a different name in a different place. Leave that detail aside for now.

Dr Rad 37:54
I think I’ve mentioned the name to be fair.

Dr G 37:57
And Valerius Maximus emphasises that to save the Roman line, which was already yielding from a complete rout, these young warriors dismounted from their horses, arranged themselves in centuries, and dashed into the enemy host. So we’ve got that nice parallel with Livy’s account. And they get down from their horses and like we’re going to do it infantry style. We do what we must.

Dr Rad 38:22
Yes, absolutely.

Dr G 38:24
Dividing themselves up, they occupy an adjoining hill, and they draw themselves they draw to them the full Volscian force.

Dr Rad 38:34
Right.

Dr G 38:35
Thus allowing the other Roman legions that are in disarray, some respite to recover that morale, and presumably

Dr Rad 38:42
I think that all matches up, yup.

Dr G 38:43
Presumably, that’s where Sempronius is.

Dr Rad 38:45
Yes.

Dr G 38:46
And they, they’re not sure how this all turns out in the end, ultimately, though, so it gets to nighttime. The battle technically ends with nightfall because people can’t see enough to keep doing battle. And everybody withdraws. But nobody’s really sure who’s won. Awkward. Yeah. So from this kind of evidence, in a way, this kind of makes a little bit more sense than Livy. I would say, not. Well,

Dr Rad 39:20
I feel like it’s kind of the same story, though.

Dr G 39:23
Well, it’s tricky, because like we’ve had other instances in the past where the battle has gone all day, but it tends to finish at night because it’s hard to keep going.

Dr Rad 39:33
Oh, yeah, the nighttime stuff. The nighttime stuff is totally made up.

Dr G 39:37
So what Valerius Maximus is saying here is that when night does come, actually the enemies split apart, and they go back to their respective camps, essentially, but nobody’s sure of the outcome of the battle yet, so there’s been no clear winner. And this happens quite frequently in ancient warfare as well with the Romans. We’ve heard stories of this before where they return the next day and they have another battle so that sort of thing is where Valerius Maximus is heading with his piece of evidence. But he doesn’t go. He doesn’t mention anybody by name, except for Sempronius. But he does talk about this group of young warriors who really do save what was going to be a disaster for the legions that were already on the ground.

Dr Rad 40:23
Okay, cool. Yeah. So I think I agree, I think we’ve got that matchup in terms of the young warriors who are cavalry, who make themselves into infantry, draw attention to themselves from the Volscians and allow the rest of the Romans to get themselves in order and do what they need to do. I definitely agree that it seems highly unlikely that they are fighting all day and then all night. That doesn’t seem right. But anyway, so back in room when Tempanius and the cavalry show up, their tributes have already clocked off for the day. Because they are busying themselves with putting on trial, Marcus Postumius and Titus Quinctius, who are being charged for their lack of success at Veii. Now, this is a throwback to the year 426.

Dr G 41:10
I was gonna say they’ve left that they’ve left their run a bit late. It’s like that was years ago.

Dr Rad 41:15
They’d been worried about other matters, Dr. G

Dr G 41:17
Fair enough, fair enough.

Dr Rad 41:19
But I think that they I think they’re seeing an opportunity presented with the ill feeling towards Sempronius right now. Because Sempronius has also obviously done a terrible job in this battle, in that these young warriors had to come to the rescue. And so they’re like, You know what, this is an opportune moment for putting these guys on trial because everyone’s really hating on Sempronius right now, it’s the same story all over again. Now, just to remind listeners 426, may or may not be the year in which we had that momentous fight over Fidenae. And they and we had the most ridiculously handsome, Cornelius Cossus coming out, maybe killing an Etruscan King of Veii, Lars Tolumnius. In this year, we had a dictator, Aemilius Mamercinus. We that was that year. That was that’s what we’re throwing back to at this point in time. So the tribunes call a meeting and they say you know what, the Romans have been betrayed by their generals at Veii. And there were no consequences. Now, once again, the army has been sent out against the Volscians as they’ve been let down by the consul. The cavalry has practically been slaughtered. The camp has been abandoned. This is absolutely disgusting. And this is where we get the name distributed coming in Gaius Iunius.

Dr G 42:50
Aha. He’s in!

Dr Rad 42:52
The Tribune, Gaius Iunius summons Tempanius to speak. And he asks him, tell me Tempanius, how did Sempronius prepare for battle? Do you think what he did was adequate? Was it in fact, you who rallied the cavalry on that day and came up with the battle strategy that saved our asses? When the cavalry ran into issues and was cut off from the rest of the army, did the consul come to your rescue? Did he even send you any help? Was he even there the next day, when you manage to make your way to the camp? Or did you in fact, find the camp abandoned, filled only with the wounded and the stuff that was left behind? I want the truth.

Dr G 43:43
Oh, how intense.

Dr Rad 43:45
I know. And you know exactly what Tempanius says, “you can’t handle the truth!” He’s very calm. He’s very calm. He’s cucumber, like, very measured. He doesn’t seek the glory for himself. And he does not want to criticise anybody. My translation describes this as soldierly dignity, stiff upper lip and what what exactly, he says, “Look, wasn’t up to me. I’m just a mere soldier to evaluate the performance of my general. The Roman people had deemed him worthy of that position when they selected him. So let’s just move on, shall we?”

Dr G 44:23
“And as for my role with the cavalry, I really do what I must do in the heat of battle. Any any other decurio would have done the same.”

Dr Rad 44:32
Exactly. He also goes on to testify. “Look, I saw the consul fighting. I saw him fighting at the front. I saw him encouraging the men and we were running around between the standards and missed enemy fire. I could not see everything of course, because that would be insane and that I had 1000 eyes like a fly. But I could hear the battle raging into the night. And I do not think, quite frankly, that it was possible for anyone to reach me and my men, they were just too many enemy. What you ask is unreasonable.”

Dr G 45:08
Oh, dear,

Dr Rad 45:09
He presumed that the consul had simply taken the rest of the army to a safe place. And in fact, that is what he had done. And it makes complete and utter sense that he did so.

Dr G 45:23
Where is Sempronius? Has he turned up back at Rome at this point in time? Or are people like that man’s a well, and half the army? We don’t know where it is.

Dr Rad 45:31
Just you wait, just you wait.

Dr G 45:32
Okay?

Dr Rad 45:33
Yeah. Now the Volscians, of course, also, were in the same tricky position. Everyone was confused, because not only was it a confusing battle, but it was nighttime for a huge chunk of it, apparently.

Dr G 45:46
Yeah, look at it’s really hard to tell how it went. I couldn’t see anything, including the enemy.

Dr Rad 45:51
Yeah, exactly. Tempanius is finally allowed to sit down after this damning testimony. No, not really. After this testimony, which does nothing to damn anybody.

Dr G 46:01
Tem-pain-ius, as we can call him, because he’s in pain a lot.

Dr Rad 46:07
Anyway, so he’s dismissed and everyone’s like, wow, what a guy. I mean, could I be any more in love with him? Not only has he rescued the Romans, but he has also not actually taken up this opportunity to win all this praise for himself. He’s just so humble and brave. I mean, I think I’m ovulating right now.

Dr G 46:32
So much virtus right now.

Dr Rad 46:34
Now, you asked about Sempronius. Let me tell you about where Sempronius is.

Dr G 46:40
Yeah, where’s Sempronius? This guy is missing in action.

Dr Rad 46:43
Yeah, so he’s travelling along somewhere called the Labican road. You may know where this is. I do not.

Dr G 46:50
Not offhand. No.

Dr Rad 46:52
Okay. So he apparently reaches a shrine. The shrine of the I think it’s the Quies. Quies. It spelled q u i e s. Hmm, never heard of it. Probably should have looked that up actually. But anyway, he reached his this particular shrine. Wagons and animals are sent out from the city because he’s obviously close enough to Rome that they, I guess, can see him coming or he sent word ahead and they’re like, You guys must be tired. Let us help you out. “Thank God, I am exhausted. This battle seemingly never ended.” Now the consul is in the city soon after this. And he clearly wants to single Tempanius out for praise because he recognises that Tempanius was the hero of the day. However, he’s also a trifle defensive about what went down.

Dr G 47:40
Fair enough. It’s always awkward when you go into something full of confidence with no preparation and that it doesn’t work.

Dr Rad 47:48
Who knew that it would blow up in your face? I feel like this is one of those situations where we can say I tried nothing. And I’m fresh out of ideas.

Dr G 47:57
I mean, it’s embarrassing.

Dr Rad 48:00
Yeah. So the citizens are absolutely Spurius Furius in their rage against Sempronius.

Dr G 48:09
Fair enough.

Dr Rad 48:10
Yeah, they’re also pretty mad about the guys from a few years back now because of Sempronius. They’re like, yeah, yeah, I remember that thing that they, you military tribunes with consular power, good for nothings. And so they are in fact put on trial before the people. And Marcus Postumius, one of the military tribunes with consular power is fined 10,000 pounds of bronze for his sheer stupidity.

Dr G 48:39
That is, that’s a lot of bronze. Poor man. All right, didn’t lead well enough and there’s a price to be paid. That’s good to know.

Dr Rad 48:48
There is indeed.

Dr G 48:49
So the tribunes are coming forward with some effective strategies for trying to like you know, keep the patricians in check a little bit be like, sure you could lead the army, but that does mean you have a responsibility to be good at leading an army. And if you’re not gonna do it properly, maybe don’t get us all killed.

Dr Rad 49:11
Exactly. Now, you might be wondering, Dr. G, what about that other guy? Because Marcus Postumius was not alone when he was in charge of the forces at Veii and you are quite right, Titus Quinctius. Now this is a family we’ve had a lot to do with. This is in fact we think the brother of Cincinnatus, so he belongs to that gens.

Dr G 49:36
One of the famed Cincinnati’s

Dr Rad 49:39
Yeah. Now he has had some military success. He has won some victories against the Volscians, not difficult given the Romans fight the Volscians all the time, case in point. And he also has been part of one of the Roman victories at Fidenae because he was lieutenant to the dictator Aemilius. So he’s not in quite as much doo doo as Postumius.

Dr G 50:07
He has had some successes in his military command history.

Dr Rad 50:11
He has now he comes forward and completely throws Postumius under the bus. Oh, yeah, he is acquitted by all the tribes because he pins all the blame for everything that went wrong and 426 on Postumius.

Dr G 50:28
Wow. Cincinnatus. Not cool.

Dr Rad 50:32
Apparently, though, people also feel sorry for him because they still love Cincinnatus. I mean, what’s not to love about Cincinnatus? He has not got a great fortune, and yet he still serves the state tirelessly. Whenever they call on him. He’s there.

Dr G 50:50
Oh, he’s basking in the reflected light of familial connection is he?

Dr Rad 50:56
It would seem so because it seems as though by this point, he is finally dying. And nobody wants to tell him that this is where his family is at.

Dr G 51:08
Your family is now out of favour. Sorry about that.

Dr Rad 51:11
Yeah, absolutely. Now, whether any of this is in fact, true is obviously a moot point. There seems to be something going on here. Although interestingly, I did read that the Quintii and the Postumii, often very closely related because there’s some marriages going on in between their families. So interesting.

Dr G 51:38
I wouldn’t, yeah, maybe some family jealousy at play here.

Dr Rad 51:42
I was gonna say, yeah, it’s possible that this is a bit of a falling out between the families here.

Dr G 51:48
Quite possibly, the drama, gossip.

Dr Rad 51:52
I know. So that’s kind of where 423 winds up for me. We’ll probably be picking out some of the pieces of this, I think into the next year. But I would like to note before we sign off here, that I have enjoyed this episode so much because it has so many of our classic characters that live he likes to bring in the troublesome tribunes, the heroic soldierly plebeians. I love it.

Dr G 52:18
Yeah, I think there’s a there’s a good story element to what Louie has brought to the table for 423. So I’m excited to avoid all the details from you and to have thrown in a couple of details along the way as well.

Dr Rad 52:34
Yeah, well, the interesting thing I think about the whole story about Sempronius, because this is quite a prominent family. And as you signalled at the beginning, it is interesting because the Sempronii seemingly started out as a plebeian gens and become patricians. And then we know that they’re going to have an association with the plebeians again. So it’s really interesting that you noted that plebeian connection with Atratinus coming in later as well, like, clearly, there’s a bit of interesting stuff going on here with this particular family. And obviously, different branches of the family, I would say,

Dr G 53:07
Yeah, and I think this gives us a sense of insight into the shifting sands. That is the nature of the Roman elite and the hierarchies that might be at play in the Roman state. We’re never really quite sure where people sit exactly. And we know, this harks back into that big idea that we’ve mentioned before where we’re not really sure where the elites are coming from, we’re not sure whether they’re patricians, or known as patricians at this stage. But there is this does seem to be a division between the citizens that can hold certain positions and the ones that cannot, and the Sempronii, seem to be one of these families that straddles both of these categories across the centuries.

Dr Rad 53:54
Definitely. And one of the other things that live in may, in fact, be playing with here, which we have come across before, is this and this is not living alone. This is a bit of a Roman trait. This assumption that people from the same family behave the same way no matter how much time has passed. We’ve seen that very much with the Appius Claudiuses that we have encountered over time, with each one of them just becoming even more despicable than the one before.

Dr G 54:22
Gotta uphold the family tradition. I’ve got to try it out to my ancestors in being terrible and arrogant.

Dr Rad 54:28
Yeah, and it would seem that this might be the case with Sempronius. Because this battle, which has taken place forever, you’re quite correct about that being the location of this Volscian battle. It seems to mirror very closely, a very famous battle from the Second Punic War. So in 218 BCE, there was a battle at Trevia. And one of the people leading that battle is a guy called Tiberius Sempronius Longus. Now you’re going to see some really strong parallels here. Because once again, we’ve got a consul, who is not preparing properly, we see him making foolish decisions when preparing for the battle not being properly prepared. And then we see a division of forces into two groups, and then only managing to escape through sheer luck. And also, this battle was rescued because of the dismounting of the cavalry to fight as infantry at Cannae. So it seems to be a blending together of some stories that come from the Punic Wat and being maybe used to construct the battle here. Now, as you’ve noted many times strategy, I am not insinuating that this battle did not in fact, happen. And that the Romans are in fact making it all up, and just using a latest story to invent their history. But they might be fleshing out the details when they know that there’s a defeat of a console called sim peroneus, who ends up getting themselves into a lot of a lot of trouble by using some of the details from this Punic War battle, and probably drawing on some family folklore here.

Dr G 56:18
Yeah, definitely, I think you’re quite right about stuff like that, where the family legacy and the idea of inherited characteristics is very much something the Romans are into. They read backwards as well as forwards into their family lines with this kind of thing. So yeah, I’m willing to buy that theory. And I look forward to the day we get to the Battle of Cannae so we can not only go through that particular battle in incredible detail, but then also have a think back to this particular battle as well.

Dr Rad 56:49
Absolutely. Trevia and Cannae, I’m there in like, 20 years with you. It’ll happen. It’s a date.

Dr G 56:56
I will see you there.

Dr Rad 56:58
Absolutely. And that really brings me therefore to the end of what I have for 423. And I don’t want to go into 422 just yet. That means it is time for The Partial Pick.

All right, Dr. G, tell us about the Partial Pick.

Dr G 57:16
The Partial Pick, there are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs. Rome, can they do it? We will find out there are five categories. There are 10 golden eagles on offer in each category. Our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 57:33
This is an awkward one because they clearly doing really badly for a while. And I don’t think they really win so much as not lose.

Dr G 57:44
I think it’s pretty awkward to suggest that they have military clout, when it seems like what has happened has been a failure in leadership to really pull the battle together. It sounds like they could have easily won this if they’d been prepared.

Dr Rad 57:59
Well, I mean, they’ve beat the valskis so many times. I mean, can that go off? They could have won it.

Dr G 58:04
Nobody’s expecting them to lose at this point. So it’s awkward that they have

Dr Rad 58:08
Yeah, so I don’t know. I mean, what are we going to give them like maybe a three to recognise Tempanius snd his crew?

Dr G 58:16
Yeah, the amazing turnaround provided by Tempanius and his dismounting of the cavalry. Look, yeah, I think that deserves some sort of reward, maybe for being too harsh. No, I was gonna go even less actually, because I think a lot of what Tempanius does might fit into a future category. I’d be going for like, two.

Dr Rad 58:37
Oh, okay. Two. All right. Uh, two.

Dr G 58:40
All right. Our next category is Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 58:44
Well, where it was. So

Dr G 58:49
You say diplomacy? I say no, thank you.

Dr Rad 58:51
Yeah. And I mean, if even if we look at the random story that Livy decided to tell me about what happened to Capua, no diplomacy there either.

Dr G 59:01
Yeah, I mean, people just gave up, didn’t they?

Dr Rad 59:03
That was the most random story, I think. I think maybe he was just trying to explain where the name Capua came from.

Dr G 59:08
Yeah, but why now? Very strange. All right. That’s that’s a no.

Dr Rad 59:15
This is your Yeah. All right.

Dr G 59:17
Expansion.

Dr Rad 59:18
I don’t get the sense that they’re winning any territory here.

Dr G 59:23
It doesn’t sound like it. No. Okay. That’s a clear zero as well. All right. I think there might be a bit of a comeback in Virtus.

Dr Rad 59:30
I agree. I mean, I think it has to be a 10 out of 10 for this guy. I mean, he comes out of nowhere, he does his duty and battle he puts himself at risk. He manages to fight amazing battle and make it out alive, saving probably the life of the cavalry with him, as well as also preserving the ruins from utter defeat. And then when he gets back to the city, he doesn’t even want to brag about it. I might have a stroke. Hmm.

Dr G 1:00:02
Well, if you run into this guy in a bar, you can have him. I’ll be your wingwoman. Yeah, there’s an amazing display of virtus here, I think and I don’t know that I can give it a 10 though. So that’s my that’s my hesitation because this is not a clear victory.

Dr Rad 1:00:22
Wow, way to be harsh Dr. G. Oh my god, the years have made you cruel.

Dr G 1:00:30
I feel like if it was

Dr Rad 1:00:31
But he and his band, I think they have been victorious in like preserving the Roman army from slaughter defeat disgrace. And not only that, they haven’t even died themselves. I mean, sure. I’m sure a couple of them have died. But they’ve made it out alive. They go back to the camp. And then he didn’t even throw Sempronius under the bus. I mean, what more do you want for little old Tempanius?

Dr G 1:00:58
Alright, alright

Dr Rad 1:00:59
He’s a plebeian he’s a plebeian.

Dr G 1:01:02
I’ll give him a ten.

Dr Rad 1:01:05
Yessss. That’s what I’m talking about.

Dr G 1:01:09
And our last category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:01:13
Okay, I don’t think this is probably great.

Dr G 1:01:16
It’s not an ideal time to be a Roman citizen. You have been signed up and levied into an army that is being poorly Led.

Dr Rad 1:01:24
Yes.

Dr G 1:01:24
Generally speaking.

Dr Rad 1:01:25
Yeah.

Dr G 1:01:26
It seems like we don’t know the outcome of this battle. So lives are definitely lost. We know that was plenty of injuries. One of the things Tempanius seems to do is go back and rescue some of the injured from the camp.

Dr Rad 1:01:39
I have a feeling it’s considered to be like a tie, because they’re both they’re both panics. They’re both in disarray. Neither one has dominated, sir. Yeah, I think it’s an inconclusive battle, for sure. Although, in a way, I think the Romans also kind of look at that as being just as bad as a defeat because it shouldn’t have been such a close run thing.

Dr G 1:02:02
Yeah. So it’s, it’s not great. If you’re a plebeian and you’re serving in the infantry. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:02:11
We do see the tribunes coming out and being like, hey,

Dr G 1:02:16
that’s true. Levelling some prosecutions against the generals of former times. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:02:23
And current times. Oh, they’re coming fast and furious.

Dr G 1:02:27
Just you wait. Yeah. Stay tuned.

Dr Rad 1:02:29
I like I like the accountability. So that’s at least something.

Dr G 1:02:33
Okay. I’d say on the accountability side of it. I’d be inclined to give it a five and above.

Dr Rad 1:02:39
Oh, okay. I’m gonna go five because I don’t think it’s that amazing. I mean, he’s fine. Like big whoop.

Dr G 1:02:45
Don’t know how much bronze you’ve got lying around. But you know, it’s gonna be tough.

Dr Rad 1:02:49
Sure, it’s a huge fine and everything but I mean, you know. We know how the elites work. He’ll be getting money passed to him from his other patrician buddies. He won’t be really doing it tough, come on. He’ll be fine. He’ll be fine. He’ll land on his feet. He said he’s from the Postumii. He’ll be fine.

Dr G 1:03:06
It’s true. Yeah. All right. So five. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:03:09
So that means Dr. G, the Romans have earned themselves a grand total of 17 Golden Eagles.

Dr G 1:03:17
Well, it’s not a pass, but it’s better than some other times.

Dr Rad 1:03:23
I think it’s better than I was expecting. Given that this is not really a great military year for them.

Dr G 1:03:29
It did seem like mostly a rout. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:03:33
Absolutely. So 17 Not too shabby. largely thanks to one hero, one batte.

Dr G 1:03:42
One man standing out from the crowd, stepping down off his horse to fight in the trenches.

Dr Rad 1:03:48
Indeed. And I think that we have also exposed Livy to being sued for violating the plotline of “A Few Good Men”.

Dr G 1:03:56
How dare he?

Dr Rad 1:03:57
I know he totally stole that courtroom scene, embarrassing.

Dr G 1:04:02
We’ll have to write him a strongly worded letter.

Dr Rad 1:04:04
We will indeed.

Dr G 1:04:06
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to learn all about 423 BCE with you, Dr. Rad.

Dr Rad 1:04:12
Indeed has Dr. G. I will see you next time for 422 When no doubt we will still be referring back to this horrible year.

Dr G 1:04:20
Oh yeah. The legacy of this is going to take some time for Rome to get over Yeah, definitely.

Dr Rad 1:04:44
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today we’d like to give a special shout out to some of our heavy hitters or our most generous patrons in no particular order. Ryan, Frederick Michael D’Andrea, Amanda, Doron Vincent, Sean Virginia, Mickey Spurius de with Augustus, Steve, AJ, Molly, David, James, John, Kiley, Chris, Anna, Aaron, Robyn Kylie, Liz, Elise, Ted, Austin Annesley, Jacob, Theodore art, Savannah, Joel, Sharon, and Roman. You can also support us, however, by getting a copy of our collaboration with Bridget Clark from Gumroad or deck yourself out in Partial merchandise. But if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. We just love having stars in our eyes. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 137 – The Tenacious Tempanius appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

In this episode we dig into the details (or lack thereof!) of 425 and 425 BCE. Good news for the plebeians is that when there’s not much going on in Rome, they get a chance to just live life a little!

Episode 136 – How the Plebeians Got Their Groove Back

What’s the deal with military tribunes with consular power? We consider the etymology of tribune (the Latin tribunus) to better understand this facet of the political structure. This also means tackling the big question of: who were the magistrates in this period of history and how much can we take from our later writers like Livy and Dionsysius of Halicarnassus?

The time is ripe for Rome to hold games in honour of the gods. There’s no battle to be had and diplomacy in the local region seems to be taking a turn for peace. What better time to invite everyone over for some sport and festivities?

Jean-Léon Gérôme 1876. Chariot Race.
This is an imagined scene of a Roman chariot race at the Circus Maximus at the height of Rome’s power (we’re not up to that point in Rome’s history in this episode!). The Circus itself is thought to be significantly old – dating back potentially as early as the kings.

Thanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Additional sound effects from BBC Beta.

Greek black figure vase of a charioteer with four horses.
This Athenian vase is obviously not a Roman artefact, but it’s thought to date to c. 410-400 BCE which is very close to the period we explore in this episode. Gathering together for games and chariot racing was common across the Mediterranean. The Roman were likely inspired or influenced by ideas for games and races from the Greeks and the Etruscans.

Dr Rad 0:16
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:20
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and this intelligent, ravishing creature next to me is

Dr G 1:06
Dr. G. Yay, I feel very complimented. Is it my sequined dinosaur t shirt?

Dr Rad 1:12
I mean, if that doesn’t scream, intelligent and ravishing, I don’t know what

Dr G 1:16
Ah, you’re so kind!

Dr Rad 1:19
So I’m thrilled to be back that back again, in the studio, talking about Ancient Rome with you.

Dr G 1:26
Yeah we’ve been exploring Ancient Rome from the foundation of the city. And we are well into what is the early republic at this point, it’s a roundabout 425

Dr Rad 1:38
It is

Dr G 1:38
BCE

Dr Rad 1:39
I feel like we’ve really raced ahead suddenly, like for a while, it was just like moving through slow setting cement. So I didn’t feel like we could get out of the middle of the fifth century BCE. And here we are, we are getting so close to a new century.

Dr G 1:55
Things are speeding up. And I think we have to thank our missing source material,

Dr Rad 2:00
I was gonna say, probably not a good thing. It’s the fact that everything seems to be a little bit blancker.

Dr G 2:07
There are a lot of fragments. But before we get into 425, and maybe what we could possibly know about it, let’s do a little bit of a recap of where we’re up to. And just think a little bit about 426. And where the land lay at that point.

Dr Rad 2:23
Well, it’s a difficult one, because to give a recap of 426, Dr G, is but to give a recap of a 437 as well.

Dr G 2:33
It’s a tough time in our Roman source material. And it’s centered around this guy, all this Cornelius Cossus, who is most famous in all of Roman history for being one of the three Roman generals to achieve taking the spoila optima.

Dr Rad 2:50
I feel like that should have been a sign to them that they were maybe making it too high.

Dr G 2:57
All of Rome, only three men, well, maybe. But it’s really challenging because it has to be somebody who is in the military in a significant position, taking down the enemy leader directly. So it’s a commander taking out a commander, basically in single combat in amongst a whole other battle going on around them.

Dr Rad 3:20
And it makes it even more difficult because technically, he may not be that person, because he doesn’t seem to matter, potentially, when he did this.

Dr G 3:30
Awkward awkward, like 426 is one of the years. He also could have done it in 428 when he was actual consul that would make narrative sense to me. Yeah. And that’s the that’s the date I would hone in on. But it could also have been as early as you say 437 – 438 as well. Yeah, so everything’s a little bit hazy.

Dr Rad 3:49
But the bigger context for who all is Cossus. Sorry. Aulus Cornelius Cossus was fighting is Veii.

Dr G 3:57
Yes. Yeah. He’s fighting the Etruscans. Yeah. And Rome at this point in time, the big picture is that Rome is sort of finding its way with its neighbors, like, how does it sit within the broader Italian landscape? Where do they do their strength lies? Who are their allies? Who are they against, and they’re now butting up really closely against the Etruscans. And the city of Veii is the southern most Etruscan city we know of, and it is a mere 15 or 20 kilometers from Rome itself. And, you know, a good day’s march – hard and fast – and you’ll get there and you’ll be ready to fight them by the next breakfast.

Dr Rad 4:34
Absolutely. And it also that conflict was they seem to be pivoting on the question of Fidenae, I think in whatever you’re talking about. But in this past decade, it seems to be a real sore spot that this colony of Fidenae really wants to be sided with the Etruscans and every time they decide they’re going to make the switch to room conflict ensues.

Dr G 5:00
Yeah, it’s a tragic time Rome has convinced that Fidenae is theirs

Dr Rad 5:04
Yup

Dr G 5:04
And Fidenae is apparently a Roman colony from way back, depending on how you look at it. And Fidenae has defected they’ve thrown their lot in with the Etruscans. And Rome is less than pleased.

Dr Rad 5:17
Absolutely, they’re not gonna take that. So as a result, we had a lot of military action in 426 BCE, rightly or wrongly, this is how it’s come across to us with the Romans after having a difficult start pulling through Yeah,

Dr G 5:35
Whoo.

Dr Rad 5:39
Yeah, so that’s kind of weird. Sarcasm may not be detected. So that’s kind of where I think we ended up at the end 426, which is actually refreshing. Because the early 420s BC were a little dull. I’m not gonna lie.

Dr G 6:01
They were but as as 426 concludes, it feels like we’ve maybe reached the conclusion of a certain level of the combat because if the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius has not died up until now. We think he must be dead by this point in time. Yeah. So that brings us to

Dr Rad 6:23
The extended deadline. Sorry, that brings us to

Dr G 6:29
425 BCE.

Welcome one and all. Roll up, roll up for 425 BCE.

Dr Rad 7:18
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dr G 7:22
Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.

Dr Rad 7:25
Party on, Livy is not!

Dr G 7:28
The Fasti Capitolini are missing.

Dr Rad 7:31
Oh, really?

Dr G 7:32
They are. They’ve been missing for a little while now. And that?

Dr Rad 7:34
Well, you kept that quiet.

Dr G 7:37
I mean, there’s there was no point to mention them. So this year, I have four military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 7:44
Now, I would love for you to tell me their names, Dr G. But before you do that, I would like to pause because I was talking with a learned gentleman the other day, who asked me to explain where the title of tribune actually comes from.

Dr G 8:03
And it’s a good question because it does have “tri-” in it. So a group of three, but we can already see with the plebeian tribunes that, maybe it depends.

Dr Rad 8:13
Sure. And I think it also has this link to the fact that Rome, that having at least according to their own history, Rome was organized into tribes. And so “tribune” was often a title given to someone who was the leader of some sort of group that had something to do with the tribal organization. And if we think about what you were saying in terms of the number and that idea of where does the word tribune comes from? Romulus originally divided the population of Rome up into three tribes, correct?

Dr G 8:42
Yes, correct. Yes.

Dr Rad 8:44
And so this is a title that a lot of people get in some form or another. So for example, obviously, we’ve got the tribune of the plebs. Now, we don’t think that the tribune of the plebs have a particularly strong connection to the tribal structure to the ancient tribe. Yeah, no, we don’t think so. But it makes sense, obviously, that they are presiding over a body where people are organized, it is a tribal assembly, essentially, that they presiding over as well. So there’s a connection there. It’s also just a say a word that the Romans start to use for these people who are leading some sort of tribal group. And I’d say it’s also something that therefore, the more they get into the habit of using that for these people, the more that the practice of using that term, obviously, continues on. And then obviously, when we’ve got military tribunes and military tribunes refer to leaders, obviously, of a particular army group. Again, probably very early on in Rome’s history, there was probably some sort of tribal organization to the group that they were commanding, but eventually it doesn’t have anything to do with that, but the title stays.

Dr G 9:49
Yes, yeah, the meaning changes, but the would remain where it lives on.

Dr Rad 9:53
And so obviously military tribunes with consular power is, you know, apparently the Romans putting this idea of well plebeians they don’t have the auspicium to be, you know, they can’t be a consul like the patricians can, we have the auspicium we you know monopolizing all the auspicium that’s out there, so you can’t hold that position and therefore they give it they’ve used this position this military tribunes and given it the you know the authority or the power of the consul without giving it the actual consulship. So yeah, it’s a very fine line isn’t so complicated try and explain.

And yet for all of the explanations that are put forward for the idea that these military tribunes with consular power should open up the position to people who aren’t necessarily patrician, what we tend to find is that they’re largely patrician.

Yes. And see, I was really it’s really interesting article the other day, which puts forward this argument that at this point in Rome’s history, this idea of consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it’s just nearly allies, because this person was saying that it seems as though Rome, obviously, is, as we’ve been talking about as much of the stuff that we’ve been talking about, I suppose, but taking it a little bit further, that Rome has this narrative that they got rid of the kings, and then they seamlessly transitioned into this Republican system, which is suspiciously similar to the late Republic.

Dr G 11:33
Yeah

Dr Rad 11:33
Yeah. And that, in this in this particular context, in early Rome, this person has suggested that actually, there are no senior magistrates, so consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it doesn’t exist at this point in time. It’s something that exists a bit later, probably about if we’re at 425 right now, probably, what about 80 years, that’s when we start to see the appearance of these sorts of things. And that really, we’ve just got patricians, which is much what we’ve seen monopolizing power. So because they are wealthy, they have resources, they have clients, they’ve been able to monopolize power in the countryside. And if we look at the names that the tribes have been given out in the countryside, like outside of the pomerium, outside of the city of Rome itself, they kind of reflect the power that these people hold. So like they might be named after a particular gentes. So like, Aemelia, or whatever. And then if we look at the tribes within the city, that’s not the case. It’s the tribal names are more reflective of like, where you live, you know, it’s like the Palatina or something like,

Dr G 12:40
Yeah, look, I think it’s pretty fair to take the position that the way that state structures form is slow. And it’s a process. And things are not necessarily set in structures that make sense. And structures have to alter and change.

Dr Rad 13:01
Yup

Dr G 13:02
And adapt to situations. And part of the challenge for historians is that there is very few ways for us to get closer to what actually may have happened in the past than we already are.

Dr Rad 13:18
Yeah, for sure.

Dr G 13:19
And so these written sources that we’re relying on, whether it’s the fasti, whether it’s Dionysius or Livy, these people are doing the best they can, I like to give them the benefit of the doubt – doing the best they can with the information that they have at hand. But the way that information is kept and conveyed over time is problematic. Yeah. And it’s not rigorous in the same way like we live in this internet age where we have an overabundance, if you like of information, yeah, that doesn’t mean that it’s easy to access the information that is actually useful, and, and good and true. Yeah. And we know that truth is a multiplicity, depending on your subjectivity. So if we take all of those ideas that we understand into account, the complexity of what’s at play here is far beyond what we’re going to be able to discern from the source material. Yeah. And there’s lots of things that we don’t know. So the best that we can say in this sort of case is that, yes, you know, something like the name “tribune” has a couple of different sort of etymological connections that it could draw upon to make it make sense. But at the same time, it’s clearly in use, and when language is in use, meanings change and adapt to the necessity of the moment.

Dr Rad 14:33
Absolutely.

Dr G 14:34
Not holding true to the etymology of how it originally came about.

Dr Rad 14:39
Yeah. And I think this is the thing I as you say, I don’t believe I mean, I like to say “Liza Minnelli lies”, but I don’t think that as you say that they’re totally making this up, doesn’t mean that these people that we’re talking about didn’t exist. It doesn’t mean that the actions they took weren’t taken, the events didn’t happen and that sort of thing. I think it’s kind of more the maybe the top titles that people held and that sort of thing, or the idea that maybe that the state was quite so formalized, which is something that we have been talking about for a really long time in this early Republican period. And I kind of I must admit, I was kind of convinced by the idea that when you look at the, even in the, in the periods where we’re a bit more convinced of the fact that like the consulship, or the apprenticeship or whatever the title was given did exist, the kinds of things that those people would do are military. This idea that you might have a division of power between civilian and military positions, and therefore, these people that we’re talking about, like, there’s no doubt that there were people out there wielding military power. Definitely the patricians held that.

Dr G 15:45
I mean, it seems likely.

Dr Rad 15:46
It seems very likely. I mean, that makes total sense. And therefore this idea that, you know, these guys are the ones commanding the armies makes 100% sense. It’s a good question, I suppose is, do they actually hold this formalized position? And are they quite as dominant inside the city as the sources sometimes make it sound? Because what this article was arguing was more the fact that it was probably more like minor officials who are doing the sort of day to day governance kind of stuff. So the people who are you know, like the neighborhood leaders, I think they’re called like the things like the curio maximus or something like

Dr G 16:24
Oh, yeah, I love a good curio maximus.

Dr Rad 16:27
Yeah. So like, like neighborhood leaders and and people who hold slightly more localized positions, who are keeping things running on the inside of the city, because of course. Rome does have this really interesting ban on military power inside the pomerium. You know, the fact that the fact that military assemblies that generals, soldiers, they all have to say outside of the pomerium, and it means that whilst the patricians might be able to throw their weight around in terms of military matters, they need a different outlet for that inside the city. And that comes back to what we’ve talked about before in terms of them potentially dominating the priesthood. And therefore being able to keep control over things like war, and judicial matters through there, kind of just cutting of the knowledge around how things actually work. And so a lot of the stuff that we’ve said makes sense. It’s just, it just maybe you take away the sort of official titles.

Oh yeah, we’ve got no guarantees on titles around here.

But I just I just thought that was interesting, because it’s so hit the mark with so many of the things that we’ve been talking about, in terms of the fact that like, these ideas, and these structures probably come in later, but you can still see the events happening. And, you know, the patricians and plebeians potentially having issues of tension around who has power and the tribune of the plebs coming out of that, in terms of being able to provide protection, particularly the tribune of the plebs being connected to the city of Rome, where the patricians don’t have that military power. It just, it was just really interesting to sort of see that all coming together. In one article, which I was like, Yeah, this makes this makes sense to me.

Dr G 18:12
Ah look, and I think this sort of thing is really important, because we’re not sure how, how the Roman state really develops, like, you know, they they tell this history about themselves? Yeah. And that’s fine. And we’re going through it and sort of, you know, delving into it as we go along. But we’re not sure about consuls at this point in time. We’re not sure about tribunes at this point in time, we’re not sure about the social division between the petitions and the plebeians as even being a plausible thing at this time. And so we’re dealing with a murky history of Rome, where Rome, leader Romans are trying to interpret and understand themselves by sort of like retrojecting, like what would be the previous steps? Yeah. What would make sense for this thing to exist now? And they sort of they see it as a gradual sort of process. But it’s open to interpretation.

Dr Rad 19:12
I think, I think the base story 100% make sense, which is you’ve got powerful, a powerful aristocracy, which is able to assert itself and remain dominant for some time once you no longer have a king. Yeah, because there’s no, there’s no one keeping them in check anymore. And then you have the people reacting against abuses of power and corruption. And that’s where you get the birth of something like the tribune of the plebs. And luckily for them, the tribunes of the plebs. Well, luckily, I mean, that’s not a coincidence, but with the development of the tribune of the plebs developing that power of or that oath being taken to protect them physically, you know, so making them in violet It offers them a level of protection, particularly because they are based in the city.

Dr G 20:06
You might not be able to have a sword in the city, but nobody can stop you getting beaten up unless we say so.

Dr Rad 20:11
Yeah exactly. But that idea of there being protection and the fact that the Romans, who are the elite, they can’t just bring their soldiers in and kill these guys. I mean, if you think about this article, make the point. That’s really annoying, because I want this guy. Well, they’re making the point of like, how easily did they get rid of Spurius Maelius? Well, pretty easily, pretty much he wasn’t attributing but I think they broke the state to do it. Well, sure. But like, at the end of the day, they got rid of him pretty easily. And he wasn’t a tribune, he was just like a guy that that was making trouble for them. Why wouldn’t they do that with the tribune unless they are respecting this?

Dr G 20:46
Yeah, but we also don’t know when tribunes becomes inviolable,

Dr Rad 20:49
I know

Dr G 20:50
And we also don’t really know when the pomerium becomes the be all and end all of entering or not with a sword.

Dr Rad 20:56
No, but it just it just made. It just made sense to me in the sense of like, the fact that there are more tribunes, it seems than there are, say consuls, like if we’re going by the official

Dr G 21:06
Oh, yeah.

Dr Rad 21:07
Two consuls.

Dr G 21:07
And I think part of this and we will get on to those military tribunes. I’m not going to leave you hanging

Dr Rad 21:13
Pause for the longest digression known to man. Hi Herodotus!

Dr G 21:17
Hello, hello. We’ll come back to those guys in a sec. But the thing with the military tribunes with consular power, is that it is clear that even from the like the long distance of looking back over like 300-400 years of history, yeah, that people in the late Republic understood Rome as not being an all powerful entity right off the bat, for sure. It is a city of struggle. Yeah. And it is not just a struggle, which results in having to exile kings and getting rid of the whole idea altogether. It’s a struggle to build a workable idea of how a state looks if it’s not run by one person.

Dr Rad 21:59
Yeah, absolutely.

Dr G 22:00
They really struggling to figure out how to do it. And they’re being pressed at this point in time from all sides. Everybody around them wants nothing to do with them. It is a constant jostling. And it seems like every city state, essentially because you could think of them as sort of isolated states, that they’re all struggling for their and jostling for their position in central Italy right now. And Rome is just another city trying to do its best.

Dr Rad 22:28
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that’s what’s I mean, this, this kind of made sense to me. And also, I mean, also the idea that Rome will continue to be struggling to assert itself for quite some time. And the idea that consuls are a good idea that consuls and praetors don’t really develop a strong connection to like civil administration and civil governance until quite some time later, because they’re still dealing with all his military stuff. Like that’s still their main point of existence and still there.

Dr G 23:02
Yeah, you gotta have that imperium. You know what I’m saying? You gotta have it.

Dr Rad 23:05
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was like, Yeah, you know that that is true. And the fact that tribune of the plebs obviously become, you know, so powerful, but again, over time,

Dr G 23:16
Yeah, very much over time, and we see them struggling here.

Dr Rad 23:22
Digression done, thank you for indulging me

Dr G 23:24
It was a pleasure. Always always interesting. So military tribunes with consular power it’s 425 BCE. Yeah. Who have we got riding that wagon? Well, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.

Dr Rad 23:39
A name I’ve heard before

Dr G 23:40
Yes, you might remember him as being part of the suffect consulship in 428. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 23:51
Another name is very familiar, but not the guy that you’re thinking of.

Dr G 23:54
Also suffect consul 428. Lucius Furius. Medullinus, military tribune with consular power in 432. And Lucius Horatius Barbatus nobody’s ever heard of him before.

Dr Rad 24:13
But we have heard the name Horatii

Dr G 24:16
We have, but it’s it’s interesting to me that we’ve got three out of our four military tributes people who have either previously held the consulship or the military tribunate with consular power. Yeah, previously true. So which makes me think Rome is in dire straits this year, because they’ve only picked really experienced dudes to come back into the situation. interesting take on it. Yeah, except for Barbartus, the bready one who you know might be somebody’s protege.

Dr Rad 24:45
Okay, well get ready to be blown away, Dr. G, by what am I about to tell you based on Livy’s account?

Dr G 24:50
Oh, yeah.

Dr Rad 24:51
Are you ready for it?

Dr G 24:51
I am.

Dr Rad 24:52
Can you handle it?

Dr G 24:52
I don’t know.

Dr Rad 24:54
Well, let’s let’s see. Alright, so 425. Livy tells me that Veii was granted a truce that was supposed to last for 20 years. And the Aequians were granted a truce of three years now. They had wanted more. But that is all there we’re going to get from Rome. And that’s it.

Dr G 25:17
That’s it?

Dr Rad 25:18
That’s it. Explicitly he says there were no foreign problems and no domestic problems. That is it.

Dr G 25:25
Wow. All of that experience in the military tribunate and for what?

Dr Rad 25:30
Well, this is why I was curious. I was like,

Dr G 25:35
Just you wait,

Dr Rad 25:37
Do they need all this experience? I don’t know that they do.

Dr G 25:41
I mean, maybe I mean, I understand that, you know, the war with Fidenae has been concluded because you know, they they shoved a whole bunch of the troublemakers into Ostia, we populated Fidenae with some Romans, we like you to behave yourselves now.

Dr Rad 25:54
Yeah. And then there was slaughter, so much slaughter.

Dr G 25:58
But I didn’t realize that the situation with Veii was coming about. So I did a bit of a timeline. A recap. Oh, okay. Yeah, cuz I’ve got nothing to talk about. I’ve no source material.

Dr Rad 26:08
Go for it.

Dr G 26:08
I mean, I’ve got Diodorus Siculus, who, you know, questionable, and

Dr Rad 26:11
You may as well have no sources.

Dr G 26:13
Oh, I like that man, but he’s very focused on the Peloponnesian War. But to just do a bit of a backstory and Fidenae. And what’s been going on in 438, Fidenae defects from Rome. That is the crucial moment. And apparently this is on the advice of the king of a Lars Tolumnius. Like, wow, you know, I saw… I saw this situation and I think you should defect. And it’s at that point that Fidenae follows what appears to be a trust and advice and slaughters the Roman ambassadors.

Dr Rad 26:45
Yeah. Who could forget? Who could forget the headless men.

Dr G 26:48
The statue still stands. Yeah. When Dionysius and Livy are writing, yeah. 437: There is there is war, war begins. Rome is not having anything to do with this. And depending on which source you read, and where you are in the timeline, this is exactly when Cossus killed Lars Tolumnius and deals with that situation.

Dr Rad 27:07
Excellent.

Dr G 27:08
We think that might be not true. 435 – we have the dictator Quintus Servilius, who captures Fidenae by tunneling under the Citadel. Yep, thrilling stuff.

Dr Rad 27:20
I did like that. That was strategy. You know, that was real strategy.

Dr G 27:23
One year, one tunnel later. And it doesn’t last though. So in 434, we’ve got Mamercus Aemelius appointed dictator, because of the threat from Veii. And this is, you know, the tension between the Fidenae and the Veii situation. All connected.

Dr Rad 27:43
It fizzles out ,right?

Dr G 27:44
There. It is a bit of a fizzer.

Dr Rad 27:45
Yeah.

Dr G 27:46
428: Cornelius Cossus consul. Yep. The Veii people are raiding Roman territory. I mean, they’ve got lots of ways of saying.

Dr Rad 27:57
It just sounds funny.

Dr G 27:59
The people of Veii. And Rome dispatches a triumviral commission to investigate Fidenae’s participation in the raids. led by Veii. 427: yeah, Rome sends out the fetiales to demand redress from Veii,

Dr Rad 28:18
Ah who could forget?

Dr G 28:20
And then declares war, because they do not get redress

Dr Rad 28:23
Jupiter as my witness

Dr G 28:25
426: Cossus and three other military tribunes, Mamercus Aemelius, dictator for the third time; Cossus is master of the horse. It’s all happening. They defeat Fidenae and Veii. Yeah, so that’s like the previous year. And now it ends with a truce. And now it’s truce time.

Dr Rad 28:43
Really long truce. 20 years?

Dr G 28:46
Well, I mean, at least a 10. And a bit.

Dr Rad 28:49
No, no, the truce is 20.

Dr G 28:51
Oh, it’s much longer than the conflict.

Dr Rad 28:53
That’s what I mean!

Dr G 28:55
We’ll see if it lasts. Yeah, yeah. So apparently, there’s three surviving monuments in Rome to this conflict with Fidenae. So we do think it has some historical basis beyond…

Dr Rad 29:05
The question is, did it last over this length of time? Or is it something that just happened at one of these points in time? And the Romans are confused?

Dr G 29:16
I think it would make sense for it to be a prolonged conflict.

Dr Rad 29:19
But this length, this length, or in this order, or in this order?

Dr G 29:23
Well, I don’t know if Rome is a capable military force right now. I mean, they want to be but you know, sometimes it doesn’t work out.

Dr Rad 29:29
They think that’s why they get so annoyed when they don’t do well like last episode.

Dr G 29:33
So there’s the statue commemorating the four Roman ambassadors who

Dr Rad 29:38
Possibly headless, not sure.

Dr G 29:41
Yeah, we’d have to find the statue. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, no, that heedlessness is a deliberate artistic choice. We’ve got the spoila optima won by Cossus, which is attested in the time of Augustus. He says

Dr Rad 29:53
By Augustus himself

Dr G 29:54
He says he’s seen it so I wouldn’t want to disbelieve Augustus because risk of death is high.

Dr Rad 29:59
God knows he never lies.

Dr G 30:02
Don’t be like that about my favorite. There is a golden crown that is also apparently dedicated in the Capitoline temple.

Dr Rad 30:09
Well, that’s right, because the dictator was made to dedicate it, apparently in 437.

Dr G 30:14
Yeah. So all of these physical objects that attest to oh, look, the history,

Dr Rad 30:19
I have no doubt there was conflict with Veii. But it’s just a question of, like, as I say, like did it all happen when they’re saying how they’re saying.

Dr G 30:27
Yeah, well, I mean, who can say but that’s all I’ve got for this year.

Dr Rad 30:30
Fair enough. All right. Let me take you on to 424 then.

Neil – History Hound 30:40
Hello to listeners of the Partial Historians, and thank you to the Partial Historians. My name is Neil and I’m the host creator and pretty much everything of the Ancient History Hound Podcast. I’m all about ancient history, and this includes ancient Greece, Rome and other cultures from antiquity. I cover a wide range of topics. I’m sure there’s something for you, but why not find out for yourself? Ancient History Hound is probably on the platform you’re using right now. So come and find me and have a scroll through the episodes. I reckon there’s something there for you. And it’d be great to have you join me.

Dr Rad 31:19
In 424, we once again have military tribunes with consular power. So who have we got Dr. G?

Dr G 31:27
We have Appius Claudius Crassus. Yes, Appius Claudius returns. This is the son of the infamous decemvir. Yeah, this family well, they don’t know when to quit.

Dr Rad 31:41
I knew it wasn’t the decemvir.

Dr G 31:43
No he’s done.

Dr Rad 31:44
He died shady circumstances.

Dr G 31:46
But his son was allowed to survive and thus the line of Claudii is perpetuated.

Dr Rad 31:53
Look, I’ll only be okay with that because eventually it’ll give me my favorite topic to study: The Julio-Claudius

Dr G 32:00
Tiberius.

Dr Rad 32:02
There’s a lot more to the Claudians than just Tiberius. Livia, huh? She marries into it but whatever.

Dr G 32:11
Spurius Nautious Rutilus, a patrician,

Dr Rad 32:15
Yep.

Dr G 32:15
Lucius Sergius Fidenas,

Dr Rad 32:15
Ah the hero Fidenae.

Dr G 32:19
Yeah. Previously consul in 437 and 429, military tribune with consular power in 433 – fancy. All right. And Sextus Julius Iullus.

Dr Rad 32:35
Still think that name should not be allowed to exist. Just sounds all shades of wrong.

Dr G 32:40
Iullus?

Dr Rad 32:40
Yeah. No just like the the Julius Iullus.

Dr G 32:44
Ah, yeah, it doesn’t. Oh, it doesn’t flow off the tongue.

Dr Rad 32:47
To be honest, it sounds like I’m making fun of him. And I’m not.

Dr G 32:51
It’s his name.

Dr Rad 32:52
Yeah. All right. Well, you’ll be relieved to hear I do have a little bit more detail from Livy in this year.

Dr G 32:58
Oh, that’s exciting. So I mean, Dionysus is predictably missing.

Dr Rad 33:02
Okay. Yeah, I was prepared for that this time.

Dr G 33:05
As is the fasti Capitolini. I have some Diodorus Siculus.

Dr Rad 33:09
Okay. Tell me what it is. I’ll tell you what’s wrong.

Dr G 33:13
Well, there’s some seems to be some question mark over the praenomen of Appius Claudius. Is it Appius? Or is it Titus? Hmm. Diadorus, says Titus. And as we know, Diodorus is often wrong.

Dr Rad 33:33
Look, if I know anything about the Romans is that they are very unimaginative within names.

Dr G 33:39
This is true. So I mean, time is is a possibility. It’s within the remit of like well known Roman praenomens. But Appius Claudius makes sense as if he is the eldest son of Appius Claudius, the decemvir.

Dr Rad 33:53
Exactly.

Dr G 33:54
Yes. You always just call your kid your name, and hope for the best.

Dr Rad 33:58
And if we know anything about Appius Claudius the decemvir, it is that he is an egomaniac. So I think

Dr G 34:07
Maybe all of his sons are called Appius Claudius.

Dr Rad 34:10
I wouldn’t put it past him, Dr G.

Dr G 34:11
Appius Claudius Secondo?

Dr Rad 34:14
Yeah, I think it makes sense. The name would be Appius.

Dr G 34:19
And that’s pretty much it. Diodorus Siculus does an alright, job on a couple of other names. Okay, and also gets another one slightly wrong, so it doesn’t really merit going into it.

Dr Rad 34:31
All right. Okay. Well, 424 begins with Livy telling me that once again, there are no issues within the city of Rome and no walls to be fought outside of the city. Which makes me wonder, Dr. G, is Rome losing its edge?

Dr G 34:50
Or is Dionysius not writing about things he’s not missing? It’s just that nothing happens. So he doesn’t say anything.

Dr Rad 34:56
You know what? That’s actually a very intelligent suggestion.

Dr G 35:01
Okay, wait a minute, I have a new topic I could write about

Dr Rad 35:04
You do. Alright, so the only thing that’s really happening is a nice thing. It just goes to show how little this happens. I feel really uncomfortable talking about this because it’s just so rare that we record something nice. History recording only the bad stuff since the BCEs.

Dr G 35:23
I’m really intrigued, what nice thing has been recorded?

Dr Rad 35:26
There are some games happening. Dr. G.

Dr G 35:28
Oh, well, they’re not very nice once you delve into them. I mean…

Dr Rad 35:32
Well, I mean, for the Romans they’re nice.

Dr G 35:34
I mean, yeah, but it’s like killing animals. It’s not my cup of tea watching people die.

Dr Rad 35:41
At this point in time, at this point in time, gladiators another thing? I don’t think

Dr G 35:47
No, no. But the what kind of games are they playing?

Dr Rad 35:51
Well, he hasn’t given me an itemized list. There’s no ferris wheel if that’s what you’re wondering. Yeah. So basically,

Dr G 35:58
There’s a boat show on the Tiber.

Dr Rad 36:00
It’s a fulfillment of a promise, Dr G. There had previously been games vowed during the war and the military tribunes are just fulfilling that promise. So lots of neighboring people from the area are included. Okay. They’ve gotten over the whole, you know, Sabine abduction thing.

Dr G 36:20
It sounds to me like it’s going to have some chariot racing. That would make sense.

Dr Rad 36:24
yeah. And look, the Romans are determined to go all out. They want to be the hosts with the most.

Dr G 36:29
I said that last time, and we all saw what happened to the Sabine women…

Dr Rad 36:33
But this time, they really mean it. They’re really laying it on thick. They want to be the most courteous game givers in the whole of their little limited area.

Dr G 36:42
Everybody come?

Dr Rad 36:43
Yeah. Now, I’m going to say the T word. It’s time to talk about some tribunes.

Dr G 36:49
Oh, dear.

Dr Rad 36:50
Yeah. That’s right. So plebeian tribunes, they decide games. Perfect time to cause trouble.

Dr G 36:58
Something does happen in this year

Dr Rad 37:00
Well Livy says it starts out that way, which makes sense, because it’s continuation from the previous year, which was really boring.

Dr G 37:06
Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. All right. I’ll strap myself back in again.

Dr Rad 37:09
And maybe the tribunes are also thinking the same thing I am, which is that Rome is losing its edge. You gotta like shake things up a little bit. We’re gonna cause some chaos. Yeah. All right. So they start making some speeches, which are clearly designed to rile people up. Okay. They’re saying they’re really angry with the people of Rome, because it seems like they adore the men that the attributes of the plebs themselves despise. And I presume that they’re meaning the patricians? Yeah, it would make sense.

Dr G 37:43
Yes. I hate those guys.

Dr Rad 37:45
Exactly. And they’re like, people are not rising up against these aristocrats.

Dr G 37:52
But I love a good chariot race. Can I do this revolution later?

Dr Rad 37:56
No, we can’t. Shut up, Timmy. They’re basically saying, Why aren’t you guys seizing opportunities? You aren’t running for military tribune with the consular power. What is going on? Like you’re allowed to, you’re allowed to What? What? They’re losing their mind.

Dr G 38:20
It looks like a tough job. You know, I’ve got I got this family to feed and this farm situation of I can’t spend a year away from the harvest. You know, it’s going to be no man. No.

Dr Rad 38:33
So the tribunes point out that look, if this is the way that you’re going to behave, then you have no right to complain anymore, that people aren’t working hard on your behalf to try and make your lives a little bit better.

Dr G 38:49
That’s it. We got to get together and protest. I definitely want to keep complaining. Yeah,

Dr Rad 38:53
they’re like, look, we don’t like being tribune of the plebs is a great gig. You ungrateful plebeians. It’s friggin hard work. And it’s super dangerous. And for what? What am I doing this for? There’s no reward for being tribune of the plebs. Always we get is patricians hating us and targeting us. And that’s hardly a reward if you guys aren’t even going to use the rights that we have worked so hard to procure for you.

Dr G 39:29
Wow. I mean, it does sound like Livy is making the tribunate sound like a pretty lame place to be.

Dr Rad 39:36
Exactly. And this is where the article I was talking about comes in again, because it points out that if we actually think that maybe there were no official senior magistracies like consul or preator or military tribute with consular power, then potentially tribune of the plebs was actually a relatively influential position, but, as you have heard, later we don’t really know what. But it’s certainly different to the other major cities which will develop in that they have very clear guidelines about this is the power that you have to achieve these goals.

Dr G 40:16
Yeah.

Dr Rad 40:16
And that’s your area. tribune of the plebs is very much more flexible. And it really is about the fact that the people seem to have originally taken this oath that they are going to protect you.

Dr G 40:25
Yeah, we want some representation. And it’s really shaped by the people in the role. So really, if these tribune of the plebs are a little bit upset about how that is going for them, I suggest they do something.

Dr Rad 40:25
Well, and this is a thing. This is potentially how the tribune of the plebs becomes more powerful, because the more that they have, the more that they can sort of play fast and loose with the fact that they can’t be killed. Technically, I mean, like they can, obviously, but

Dr G 40:53
I’m immortal.

Dr Rad 41:00
Technically, obviously, unless somebody wants to get themselves into a whole lot of trouble, they can’t be killed. And they only hang out in the city. So protection stance. Force field activate: the pomerium is up.

Dr G 41:14
I don’t want to get into a religious do-do so. I’m gonna let you live.

Dr Rad 41:18
Yeah. So the more that they can exploit that, the more that they can push their position into interesting developments, which might explain why they eventually get veto power and not just veto power over like each other, but like, veto power. I do love this. Actually, this is not for much later, but I just have to say it now. I’ll say it again later. I didn’t realize that when tribunes were first allowed to attend Senate meetings so that they could use their veto power. They initially weren’t allowed to actually be in the room. They had to sit outside and shout “Veto!”.

Dr G 41:54
Yeah, like those moments where like, you have Agrippina behind a curtain? Yeah. Really. Like I’m listening. I’m listening.

Dr Rad 42:00
But even more hilarious that they’re actually like, everyone knows they’re there. Yeah.

Dr G 42:03
They’re expecting them to stand outside and yell in “veto!”.

Dr Rad 42:08
We’re not going to do that

Dr G 42:08
Stop that!

Dr Rad 42:09
Stop that right now. Yeah. So anyway, that was just that was a total another tangent. But it is interesting to think about the fact that potentially these people, you know, well, this makes sense. And again, it’s just like that classic thing that they set up here of these senior magistrates, who apparently so important for legislation and that kind of stuff. And like, are they? Are they the people doing this? I don’t know. But anyway, anywho. So they say, Look, guys, it is time, it is time to see how the state will fare if a poor ban actually hold a magistracy for GOD’S SAKE like, the patricians sold us when we pushed for this, that no, no, you can’t do it, you don’t have the auspicium to carry out all the duties that come with the role. And even though we fought for you to have exactly such a role, you’re not taking it up. And therefore it kind of seems like maybe two beings can’t do it. So we have to end it and end it now. We must have a plane isn’t going to take a freaking miracle to find a plebeian who can hold military tribune and with consular power. I think not! We need someone with courage and energy, who’s going to revitalize the institution.

Dr G 43:30
That’s very Churchillian of you. But I don’t know that they’re going to get their wish in this year in particular, or next year for that matter. In fact, I don’t think this is going to I don’t think they’re going to achieve this for years.

Dr Rad 43:42
Well, I kind of like the way that Livy says that. Finally, like a decade or two, of being relentlessly nagged by the attributes of the plebs. Apparently, it’s only now that the plebeians really start to register.

Dr G 43:59
Me. Oh, I see what you’re saying. You. So what you meant back then, was that I could I could go for the role. Yes. What you were saying? Oh, when you first said that’s not how I heard it, you know?

Dr Rad 44:16
But to be fair, to be fair, when he says is that basically when they first got the option to run for military tribute with consular power, they felt okay about it, because for beings have obviously shown over the years that they’re capable of leading, usually in a military sense. So we’ve had some standout for being soldiers, commanders, that sort of thing. Well, sorry. Take that back, not command. We’ve had some outstanding soldiers

Dr G 44:42
We have: Dentatus.

Dr Rad 44:44
True, exactly what a man who could forget. Yeah. So we’ve had those sorts of people so clearly, they can do that. We’ve also had many plebeians who are honorable, who are courageous people, those sorts of people did try and run office when it was first a possibility, but they were bullied, Dr. G…

Dr G 45:06
By who?

Dr Rad 45:07
Bullied so hard by the patricians that they gave up and they’d rather be embarrassed and not run for office. Then try at all. So there.

Dr G 45:17
Wow, that is not the Roman spirit.

Dr Rad 45:20
It really isn’t. It actually sounds extremely high school to me. It does, yeah, that you’re gonna let you know, let these beliefs push you around and tell you what you can and cannot do. But also I think Tina Fey would have something to say about that.

Dr G 45:34
Are you going to just give up at the first hurdle? Of course, the patricians hate you. They’ve always hated you. That’s why they patricians.

Dr Rad 45:42
Well, look, the tribune of the plebs are so fed up with this situation that they’re like, You know what? Maybe we should even remove the option.

Dr G 45:54
Oh, no, no, no, no winding back. No, no, no, no,

Dr Rad 46:00
Because it would be better to not actually have the option that’s like not being used, then have it? And no one go for it. Because that’s just embarrassing.

Dr G 46:11
Excuse me? Yeah. What, what if somebody wants to go for it just like?

Dr Rad 46:16
It’s making, it’s making them all look bad.

Dr G 46:18
It’s not, it’s just, you know, it’s only embarrassing because they’ve decided they’re embarrassed about it. I need to go back in time and have a stern chat with these people.

Dr Rad 46:29
The tribunes are feeling pretty bad about it. So I think you just have to go with their feelings, Dr G.. And you know, this is how they’re feeling about it. Luckily, though, the plebeians say, You know what, yes, we will run for office, we absolutely will take you up on that offer. And they promise all the standard things that any Italian citizen could ever want. And that is placing attacks on landowners.

Dr G 46:57
Nice.

Dr Rad 46:57
Yeah. And using that money to pay for soldiers.

Dr G 47:01
Nice.

Dr Rad 47:02
Yep. Because, of course, who’s mostly the rank and file?

Dr G 47:05
The plebeians?

Dr Rad 47:07
Yeah, exactly. It’d be nice if we didn’t have to pay for our own kit every time. Yeah. And then there also seems to be that age old issue, Dr. G, of land, and land allotment?

Dr G 47:18
Ah, redistribution of the property?

Dr Rad 47:21
Yep. Yep, exactly. So I think it will shock nobody for me to say that these policies sound extremely Gracchan in nature and therefore, late Republican. However, that’s not to say that they’re not also fair for the early republic, just you know, a little suspicious.

Dr G 47:41
The land is pretty important. I think. Land is capital. Yeah. And so you could do a Marxist reading of this as well. Owning the land and redistributing the land. Yeah. Is seizing the means of production? Yeah. Because that’s how you go the green in the first place? Sure. Yeah. That you need to do anything.

Dr Rad 48:01
Yeah, this is true. This is true. Yeah. So you know, maybe that is what they went for. But they’re at least giving it a go, whether their policies are stolen from a later century or not.

Dr G 48:13
I see. I see. And is this the year? This is it? Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I really have nothing to add, in terms of the narrative, because I mean, one, you’ve done a great job of conveying the narrative to me my end, it is clear that, you know, there are some tensions that are being very much rejected at this point into this period. And fair enough. And because I lack so much source material, what I did instead was I was like, Well, where does Rome really sit? In this moment of time, because it’s been a Republic for, you know, a wee while now. And

Dr Rad 48:49
We’re coming up to 100 years.

Dr G 48:51
Yeah, we’re nearly there. So it’s time to celebrate and have a bit of a birthday. And one of the things that has come up with this conflict with Veii and Fidenae is that Rome does have some colonies. So there’s like little outposts here and there that are considered to be Roman. And we’ve come across this before. We’ve seen it with Ardea as well, in particular. And so I went through and you know, Cornell was great, provided me a list of the places that Rome is said to have colonized early on. So Fidenae quite early, a place called Signia, Circeii, Cora, Pomezia, Velitrae, Norba, Antium, and Ardea. So we’re like, we’re up to like maybe like nine or 10 different areas, which by the time that we’re in, in this 424, period, right, also have a Roman population of sorts. So it’s not just the city of Rome, it’s starting to expand out they’ve got a foothold in some different places. Losing something like Fidenae is a problem, not just because of its strategic value, but because of the message it sends to those other areas that they’ve colonized, you know, or well, if one can successfully break away, well, maybe some more could break away as well, because it sets up this kind of buffer zone around Rome itself, that gets harder to for an enemy to get close to the city. And so I’m interested in the way that Rome is shifting gradually, slowly in their understanding of themselves as not just being about the city, but being about a state that expands beyond that. And they’re starting to grow out. And we’ve been starting to see it for a little while. But that’s kind of the lay of the land where we’re at at the moment.

Dr Rad 50:41
You know what, I know that that’s probably not too bad. But I’m actually surprised it’s not more. I guess it’s because so many of the wars we’ve been talking about. They are defensive more than anything,

Dr G 50:53
And they’re mostly inconclusive, and somebody steals the booty one year, somebody steals back the booty the next year. It’s not like territorial acquisition

Dr Rad 51:02
Second-hand arse.

Dr G 51:05
Well, you know, I mean, if I have to win something, better that than nothing.

Dr Rad 51:11
No, thank you that geography is never my strong point. So I do appreciate it when others provide a geographical context for me.

Dr G 51:21
Look, I’m sorry to say that we don’t know where a lot of these are necessarily. I mean, some we do we have to see it and not now they can’t be that far away. I don’t think they’re far away now. So I actually think this is probably a good place to wrap up this episode, indeed.

Dr Rad 51:35
So we got tribunes causing issues as they are want to do.

Dr G 51:41
They really just want the best for the plebs. I think and, you know, don’t we all?

Dr Rad 51:45
Look, I do. You know, what, sometimes it takes, you know, authority figures getting really angry with you and saying, Look, you’re not living up to my expectations. Sometimes, you know, it’s I’m here, but you need to hear it. But also I believe in you exactly. Know what you can do it guys. Yeah, exactly. Take that power running for office. It’s great. All right, deputy. That means that it’s time for the Partial Pick.

Dr G 52:13
[Screeching bird sound]. We’ve had a listener complaint about my impression of an eagle, for which I apologize, but will continue to do anyway.

Dr Rad 52:24
I don’t know how cause I’ve been cutting you out and putting in the actual sound effect for episodes.

Dr G 52:28
Oh. My. God.

Dr Rad 52:32
We haven’t had you doing the eagle in a really long time.

Dr G 52:36
I cannot believe that my mastery has been cut out. Well, clearly, when I edit the episodes I leave myself in. So I apologize to everybody. That’s my editorial decision.

You can add that to the Partial Historians bingo game. Is Dr. G’s eagle imitation cut out or is it in? Because you can tell who edited an episode.

That will be the giveaway. Yeah. Because obviously I’m an artiste. And I leave my eagle sound effect in, thank you very much.

Dr Rad 53:07
Look I’m mindful of the fact that Igor needs his regular income from appearing on our show.

Dr G 53:12
Oh, well, yeah.

Dr Rad 53:14
Do you really want to put an eagle out of work? Or whatever? Check whatever bird we’re using as the sound effect.

Dr G 53:19
Yeah, it’s not an eagle. Apologies on that front as well. All right, the Partial Pick. Yeah, Rome has the possibility of winning 50 Golden Eagles. Let’s see if they can do it. There’s five categories. out of 10 each.

Dr Rad 53:35
Yeah.

Dr G 53:36
Military clout?

Dr Rad 53:38
No.

Dr G 53:40
In a year where nothing happened. Yeah.

Dr Rad 53:42
Amazing how they’ve managed to let that one slip through their fingers.

Dr G 53:45
Yeah 425, 424. I mean, they’re recovering from like, what, what appears to be a 10 year plus warfare

Dr Rad 53:51
Excuses. Excuse other people part from the Etruscans to fight?

Dr G 53:55
Wow. Probably tired. All right. So with zero Yeah, I agree. Diplomacy?

Dr Rad 54:02
Well, okay. There are two truces. Hmm, we’ve got the very lengthy one with a entirely undeserved that should keep him out of trouble. Yeah. And then we got the shorter one with the Aequians. Which I feel like the Romans didn’t really want to give it in the first place. But they did.

Dr G 54:19
I see.

Dr Rad 54:21
So I don’t know what that is maybe like three?

Dr G 54:24
Well, maybe even a five

Dr Rad 54:27
Five is way too generous.

Dr G 54:29
Hear me out. Okay. I’ll give you my rationale. And then you can disagree.

Dr Rad 54:33
All right.

Dr G 54:34
Five, because they have been a thorn in the side of Rome for nigh on 10 plus years. As far as our narrative sources are concerned.

Dr Rad 54:42
Nice use of “nigh on”

Dr G 54:45
And the Aequians are considered one of Rome’s fundamental enemies. And they’ve managed to like tie things up with the Volscii for now. So getting the Aequians on board with a treaty as well is super beneficial. Because this means that three of Rome’s greatest enemies in this time period are now apparently technically locked into a truce of some kind.

Dr Rad 55:11
I believe when I said look, I’ll go as high as a four.

Dr G 55:16
Oh, wow. Wow. All right four it is. Expansion?

Dr Rad 55:22
No.

Dr G 55:25
Virtus?

Dr Rad 55:25
Oh wait, actually sorry. Rewind diplomacy – the game – so the games counts as diplomacy like inviting around from the neighborhood area.

Dr G 55:25
I guess it depends on whether you steal their women or not.

Dr Rad 55:36
They didn’t. They were extremely polite.

Dr G 55:38
Well, that put that up to five.

Dr Rad 55:40
Yeah. Okay. Five.

Dr G 55:45
Expansion, so no, yeah, that wasn’t what we were rewarding, so virtus?

Dr Rad 55:51
No, I don’t think there’s anything.

Dr G 55:54
I mean, if you have to bully the plebs into like taking up power, I don’t know if that’s a virtus thing.

Dr Rad 55:58
That’s been happening for ages.

Dr G 56:01
And Citizen Score?

Dr Rad 56:02
Okay. Now, whilst attributes very cranky and not pleased with the plebeians. The end result does seem to be plebeians trying to get a senior magistracy that may or may not exist.

Dr G 56:19
Well, I mean, that does sound like a great outcome.

Dr Rad 56:23
Yeah. But you know, like, if I if we go with what Livy says, which I generally do, then,

Dr G 56:29
And I have no choice but to at this stage

Dr Rad 56:32
Your on my ride. So in that case, yeah. I mean, it’s not too bad.

Dr G 56:39
Look, it’s not I don’t think it’s bad at all that we’ve got no wars. Yeah. There’s all this diplomacy means that everyone gets to stay home.

Dr Rad 56:46
Yeah

Dr G 56:47
They got games. They’re not dying.

Dr Rad 56:49
No.

Dr G 56:50
And really, yeah. All anybody wants them to do is to take and seize the power that the law says that they’re allowed to have.

Dr Rad 56:57
Yeah. And they are taking them up on that. So I guess it’s time to be a citizen. Really? Yeah. Okay, so maybe like a fine. Well, I mean, come on. We don’t want to go too crazy.

Dr G 57:08
Yeah, they aren’t having the best time. They haven’t gotten the land reallotment, have they?

Dr Rad 57:12
Yeah, I was gonna say this is all very it’s they’re just running for office. I haven’t got it yet. Yeah. So five, five, okay, five minutes. That means Dr. G, 10 golden eagles, which I was not anticipating any, because there really wasn’t a hell of a lot going on in 425 and 424 BCE.

Dr G 57:33
Ten out of 50. Though that’s a fail.

Dr Rad 57:35
Well, yeah, but, let’s face it. We’ve had worse years we have and this was actually

Dr G 57:40
This was two years.

Dr Rad 57:41
It’s really

Dr G 57:43
Five for each year.

Dr Rad 57:44
Yeah.

Dr G 57:45
Oh, well. Well, Rome, you tried,

Dr Rad 57:48
But they can’t all be winners, you know, particularly not in the fifth century BCE.

Dr G 57:53
Well, it has been a very much a pleasure. sit down chat with you,

Dr Rad 57:57
indeed it has.

Dr G 58:00
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. Dr. Rad and myself thank you so much for listening, and supporting our work and enjoying this ride through Roman history with us. We’d like to send our special thanks to the following patrons. Roger, Steve, Maria, Anthony, Ryan, Fredrik, Graham, Daniel, Jonathan, Miki, Kara, Hillary, and Lucas. Some of these people started supporting us very recently, some over the course of the last year. And for all of them, we offer our huge things. So I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but maybe our microphones have improved recently. That is down to you guys. It really is. So thank you so much, and we’ll catch you again soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 136 – How the Plebeians Got Their Groove Back appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The Robe (1953) is a cinematic classic of Golden Age Hollywood. With its mix of ancient Rome and early Christianity, it was a winner with audiences around the globe. In this special episode, we tap into Dr Rad’s expertise in reception in film and come to grips with the power of The Robe!

Special Episode – The Robe

It was tricky to deal with modern political issues in this era of Hollywood under the influence of HUAC (the House Un-American Activities Committee). For the makers of The Robe, which explicitly dealt with the life of Jesus under the Romans, there were additional challenges due to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. Returning to the Old Testament was often a safer bet for Hollywood films.

The rights to The Robe were initially purchased by RKO, before finally being canceled in 1948. It found a new home at 20th Century Fox. The fact that The Robe was in production for a long time has raised some interesting questions about the impact of historical context.

The script was initially written by Albert Maltz, one of the infamous Hollywood Ten. The original script does seem to touch on blacklist themes. In Caligula’s original speech at the end of the film he refers to the “sedition” of the Christians and Marcellus has to deny that he is involved in a conspiracy to overthrow the state. This sounds eerily close to the experience of Hollywood Communists, who were generally not radicals trying to seize control of the government. There were also more references to the naming of names in Maltz’s version of The Robe…

People protesting in favour of the Hollywood Ten. Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica.

But HUAC lay in his future, as Maltz only worked on this project from 1942-1946. As Smith (2005) has highlighted, while Maltz could not have worked HUAC references into the script before his HUAC experiences, it is possible that the tension over Communism still shaped his draft. There were moves against Communism before the Second Red Scare that swept America in the late 1940s and 1950s, such as the actions of the Tenney Committee in the early 1940s, or the foundation of the right-wing Motion Picture Alliance for American Ideals.

Or perhaps Maltz was more focused on providing a critique of Italian fascism, given the backdrop of World War II? Maltz wrote Cloak and Dagger (1947) immediately after The Robe, which definitely took aim at Italian fascism, whilst exalting the resistance from the Communists. He would also write Crossfire (1947), a film that tackled issues of anti-Semitism within the USA.

Film poster for Cloak and Dagger (1947)

Is it possible that the next screenwriter to work on The Robe worked in some sick burns? Phillip Dunne followed Maltz and would eventually receive sole credit for the film, thanks to the blacklist. He was known to be a liberal and helped to establish the Committee for the First Amendment. This group formed in reaction to the HUAC hearings in 1947. Fellow members included other Hollywood luminaries such as William Wyler, Lucille Ball, Lauren Bacall, Bette Davis and Dorothy Daindridge.

However, Dunne was not a Communist; quite the opposite. He may have intended The Robe to be a veiled criticism of HUAC, but he may also have seen the repression of the Romans as being akin to Stalin and the Communist regime.

A lobby card for The Robe

Provided by Otter AI

Dr Rad 0:16
Welcome to the Partial Historians, we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 1:03
Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:10
And I am a somewhat healthy, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:15
I know this is true dedication, Patreons, Dr G has been suffering from the vid.

Dr G 1:22
I’ve been on my deathbed. But I’ve bounced back. Thank goodness.

Dr Rad 1:27
It was Rome that calls you for and said live live another day.

Dr G 1:33
And one must always follow the commands of Rome. And here I am. as ever.

Dr Rad 1:39
Well, I suppose luckily, or unluckily. I’m not sure. We’re not doing our normal narrative today. But instead, we’re taking a journey into Hollywood land, which could be good for a sick person, or maybe not.

Dr G 1:54
I look, I think it’s gonna be it’s gonna be good. I’m excited for this golden era. Hollywood is one of my favorite times in Hollywood.

Dr Rad 2:03
We all love it. We all adore it. So let’s get into this special episode where we get to talk all about The Robe 1953.

Dr G 2:50
What a film. I mean, I think the best thing about it is Richard Burton.

Dr Rad 2:54
Definitely let’s let’s give a bit of a cast rundown. So in typical Partial Historians fashion, we’re doing this slightly backwards in that we looked at the sequel first. But that was only for our Patreon. So for everybody else, we’re just doing The Robe. So first of all, we have Richard Burton playing the lead male character Marcellus Gallio.

Dr G 3:19
A fine specimen of a young Roman if I ever saw one.

Dr Rad 3:21
Indeed. And then we have my favorite Jean Simmons playing the lead female part, Diana, I think she’s actually really good in this role. Yeah, well, you know, she’s got that pure beauty about her. She looks very innocent.

Dr G 3:39
She does.

Dr Rad 3:39
Yeah. And then, of course, we’ve got the hero of our Patreon bonus episode Demetrius and the Gladiators, because, of course, being a sequel, he’s in this one too big to mature, playing Demetrius,

Dr G 3:53
And he does look mature, doesn’t he?

Dr Rad 3:57
He does have a mature look about him. But lest we forget, he retired at 44. So I guess he was in his 30s at this point in time.

Dr G 4:04
Oh, wow.

Dr Rad 4:06
And then we have Michael Rennie playing St. Peter.

Dr G 4:11
Yeah, I feel like that was a bit of a that’s a bit of a throw into the sequel as well, isn’t it?

Dr Rad 4:18
I believe so. I think he was in both. Yeah, definitely. I mean, they knew they were filming both when they started, as I discovered last time. And then we have Jay Robinson playing Caligula.

Dr G 4:30
Hmm. Yeah. We’ll come back to that one.

Dr Rad 4:33
Yeah. And then I think the main ones that we have to deal with there are major characters. Yeah, I think that kind of covers it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So The Robe 1953 is a big film in many ways. Not only is an epic from the age of epics, the Golden Age of Hollywood epics, but it also has won some fame for some of the other milestones that are associated with this film. Now, just to give us an idea of exactly how big a smash it was, it costs a smidgen over $4 million to make. And, yeah, it took in $17 million in the US a market and $36 million world wide.

Dr G 5:25
Okay, so this was a profit making engine?

Dr Rad 5:29
Well, yeah, I mean, it has a cycle that’s going to tell something

Dr G 5:35
built in, apparently, as well. So yeah,

Dr Rad 5:37
I do like this detail, though, that some of the ticket sales would have been to teachers who were pressed into going to see this movie for their students, or with their students, maybe?

Dr G 5:50
Yeah, goodness. I mean, that kind of made up the bulk of sales, surely.

Dr Rad 5:56
Anyway, so let’s talk a little bit about this ethic, Dr. G. So what were your initial impressions? I’m dying to know,

Dr G 6:03
Oh, look, I think longtime listeners of this show will be well aware that I tend to classify myself as a pagan, and my position has not changed. As a result of watching the Rome, it did feel like very much that they were utilizing Roman history as a vehicle for getting to the Christian story. And I’m not a fan of that, to be honest. Christianity is not huge. In this initial face, like this is set sort of right at the moment of the passing of the Messiah.

Dr Rad 6:39
Jesus is alive in this film. That tells us something. Yeah,

Dr G 6:43
Jesus starts alive in this film. Yeah, he doesn’t stay alive. So that gives us almost everything we need to know about what moment in history we’re in. But the sense in which there is a really strong Christianizing moment that comes over all of the players who’ve been closely associated with that moment of Jesus’s death is really interesting. Yeah, and I would say, anachronistic.

Dr Rad 7:09
For sure. I mean, it’s historically accurate to place Jesus’s life in his time period. So the time period we’re talking about is the tail end of the reign of Tiberius, aka the best period ever. And we then end up going into some of calculus, rain as well. And calculus, definitely around this whole movie. He’s not, you know, off to the side, and Tiberius is a circle regular, I think, is definitely the main Roman imperial character that we get to know over the course of this film. And that is historical. As far as we can tell, Jesus was indeed around in the latter half of Tiberius, his reign. So anyway, the general setting for Jesus’s lifetime, and when he starts to become a problem for Rome, all is accurate. And so we’ve got our major players, you know, being where they should be. But as you say, this is a classic Hollywood epic in that in order for you to have a good guy and a bad guy, you know, someone to root for and someone to despise while still enjoying the things that they get up to. It’s pretty normal for Hollywood to go to a Christians versus Romans storyline, or at least Christians slash Jewish people. Question Mark versus Romans?

Dr G 8:30
Yeah. And this leads us into some like really interesting directorial choices, or maybe casting decisions as well, because the Romans quintessentially played by the English. So they’ve got that very sort of RP accent going on. Yeah, but then the people of Palestine appear to be American. Where, I mean, it’s something

Dr Rad 8:53
But I think that that actually does keep into the whole accent divide. Because I think it’s kind of meant to be the people who are on the side, that you’re meant to be rooting for generally American.

Dr G 9:06
Hmm. So Hollywood would want you to believe.

Dr Rad 9:09
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s not. It’s not uncommon for the movies of this era to have that accent divided so that it’s super clear, just in case you were thinking of rooting for the Romans that were crucifying Jesus, just in case you had a moment where you thought maybe I’m on their side. They go for the accent just to make it very clear.

Dr G 9:30
That and the way that they decide to portray particular were Romans. Now, Caligula, as we know, doesn’t have heaps of redeeming features, ultimately, and the Romans themselves get pretty jack of them very quickly, they do. So this is what what is about to follow is not the saving of Caligula. Now, when I say I think he might have been overplayed a little bit in this film.

Dr Rad 9:59
Oh, Though I have to admit, though, I kind of enjoy the guy who played here. And he does have the kind of voice that really grates on you in a way that makes you think, yeah, I could assassinate this guy after a few years. I think I’d be annoyed enough.

Dr G 10:15
He is frustratingly inept in his presentation, and because we don’t get a good read on motivation from Caligula, and because it just feels like he’s being played for the sort of the hysterical, maniacal, power driven figure that is portrayed as in this film. It makes him feel a little bit unbelievable, whilst also holding down the position as the bad guy.

Dr Rad 10:46
Yeah, fair enough. Well, before we get too much further into Ahala, we probably should say something about the general storyline of this film. So why don’t you tell us about the the story of Digi

Dr G 10:57
Okay, all right. Well, I mean, it starts off great opening scene. It seems like we’re in the Roman Forum. Everyone’s having a good time. It’s clearly slave-buying season. Not that anybody should be excited about that.

Dr Rad 11:11
I say Why does it not slave-buying season in Rome?

Dr G 11:14
It seems to b a particularly busy time at the moment. And this sets up the few really important dynamics. It allows us to see Marcellus re-meeting his childhood sweetheart, Diana, they haven’t seen each other for many years. So that sets up that relationship. We learn about Diana’s connection as a ward of Tiberius to calendula, potentially as a love interest for him. But we also learn about myself versus ongoing tension with Caligula as well apparently those two don’t get along. And then we have this sort of moment with the slave market, which introduces us to Demetrius as well, who is perhaps the most stoic character in this whole

Dr Rad 12:00
Oh, my God, yes.

Dr G 12:01
So stoic, and this guy kind of just accepts his fate as it is, doesn’t seem to fight one way or the other. But does seem to be motivated by an internal set of principles. And for whatever reason, Demetrius ends up coming to the attention of both Marcellus and Caligula during this slave sail. And this becomes an important point because it’s this moment. And this tension between Marcellus and Caligula, which turns Demetrius is fate. So you technically gets freed in a slave auction through being purchased at such a high price for Marcellus to sort of jab coelicolor A little bit. But because Demetrius feels that this isn’t appropriate to be bought at such a high price just to be set free, he decides to become the manservant of Marcellus anyway. So these two are now bound up together in what appears to be a kind of odd duo, because my Seles then goes on to be like, let’s be friends, if we’re going to hang out together like this. Demetrius is, like, we are not friends. I really owe you. It’s different.

Dr Rad 13:15
I do like the pairing, though. I mean, Burton’s got the voice and Mature’s got this shoulder.