🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Mark Miller, Founder, CEO, Inclusion Impact Accessiblity https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-02-12-2026/

In this mission-driven episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Mark Miller, Founder and CEO of Inclusion Impact Accessibility, for a wide-ranging conversation on what it takes to move accessibility from a one-time "fix" to a durable organizational capability. Mark shares his 13-year path into digital accessibility, from a technology career to learning the craft under early industry pioneers, before helping build the field through work on accessibility maturity models and large-scale consulting, then returning to a "boutique" approach with his own firm so he can meet clients where they are and build pragmatic, customized roadmaps.

Together, they unpack two core ideas leaders can act on immediately: accessibility maturity models (the step-by-step way organizations embed accessibility into policy, process, and the software development lifecycle so accessibility doesn't "fade" as websites and apps change) and "shift left" (building accessibility into requirements, design, and development, where it's cheaper and less risky, rather than scrambling after problems hit production). They also explore where AI could genuinely help (e.g., making content discovery easier for blind users and improving developer workflows) and where it can mislead, especially if organizations overtrust automation and skip the essential human testing that catches real-world barriers.

TRANSCRIPT:

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Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And welcome everybody to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in sunny Seattle, Washington. Today my guest is Mark Miller, founder and CEO of Inclusion Impact accessibility. Hello, Mark.

Mark Miller: Hello, Kirk.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice to have you here. Mark and I met in person at the CSUN conference last March and had several really productive conversations, and I'm starting to get to know one another. And we have have a lot of similar philosophies and passions around inclusion and impact and accessibility. So for those of you who don't know me, I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind. Prior to that, I was honored to have those same roles at the Lighthouse for the blind, Inc. here in Seattle. I am a blind person. My retina is detached. When I was in kindergarten. Became totally blind overnight. To a school for blind kids. First, second and third grade and got my blindness skills down. Rock solid braille cane travel. Today it'd be keyboarding, but then it was typing. So I learned how to type on a typewriter so I could go into public school and did that sink or swim into public school? Starting in fourth grade, I had a ten year career in banking and finance and then into the nonprofit sector. I do have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University. And my my professional academic careers have been devoted to creating opportunities for people who are blind and have other significant disabilities to thrive. And I was pleased to meet Mark and intersect with Mark, and had asked him to come on the podcast and talk about his his journey, how he how he got involved in accessibility and disability inclusion, his journey, up to this point and the founding of his company, Inclusion Impact Accessibility, where he's at now and his vision for the future. So, Mark, I'll hand the talking stick to you. I as as host of the podcast, I will reserve the right to pop in with questions as they.

Mark Miller: Oh, please do.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Occur to me. So let's have a let's have a conversation. And glad to have you here.

Mark Miller: Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me onto the podcast, and I appreciate your, your listeners who are joining us today and thank them for for hanging out with us to have this conversation. I you know, I've been in accessibility for about 13 years now. And prior to that, I was working in technology. And I had a friend who got a job in this niche space called accessibility. And when I learned what that was about, I thought, you know, that's what I need to do because I really I love technology, but putting another Cisco switch or firewall into an organization isn't really that satisfying. And then further, I had had a friend who was deaf. I learned American Sign Language through her, just socially put some effort into it. But I mainly learned it socially through through her and through her friends. And I myself have Add and dyslexia. So I understood a lot of the challenges that people face just based on the challenges that I had growing up in the 80s and going through the academic system in the, in the 80s. And that's something we can get into. But in a in a small way, it it helped me relate. Late, so I spent about three years after learning about this, this great space of digital accessibility through a friend of mine who who started working in the space. I spent about three years trying to get into it. And finally one day he called me up and he said, hey, I interviewed with this company and I've decided not to take the position because things changed where I am, and I want to stay there.

Mark Miller: But I think you'd be perfect for it. And he had a similar conversation with the owner of that company. And ultimately brought the two of us together. That company was interactive accessibility. And that person was Kathy Walden, who? If there's anybody that's been around accessibility for a while, I'm sure that they'll remember that name. But she was just one of the innovators and one of the leaders in accessibility. And I always say there was only a handful. If you go back ten, 20 years, Kirk, you probably remember there was only a handful of people, right? Like it was a new industry. It came out of academia. Somewhere around the late 90s. And people were doing it just because they thought it should be done. And this notion of a business really didn't start to percolate until early 2000. You know. Yeah. So when I walked into it with Kathy, it was about, you know, it was a little way. It was a little, little ways into what you know, where businesses had been truly established at that time. And I, you know, I knew what I was getting into, but I had no idea what I was getting into. But I knew within my first few days of working at Interactive Accessibility that this was the place that I was going to be, and it was going to be my final place in my career.

Dr. Kirk Adams: That's a nice feeling, is it not?

Mark Miller: It was. It's it's an incredible feeling and as stressful as the workday can be. As much as you can forget, because we're always in the middle of our workday, right? Trying to trying to do work stuff. So sometimes the mission, it gets kind of, you know, fades off into the background a little bit. Yeah. But it's just really nice to go to bed at night knowing that you're doing something that's not just not just helpful to your family and finances and all that, but that it's helpful to a much broader audience, you know?

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Mark Miller: So I learned a lot from Kathy. She was she was an incredible accessibility professional and really, really knew a lot. And we worked together. At one point, there were three of us in interactive accessibility. Five years later, I don't know the exact numbers, but say it was around 15 people and we sold the company to Vespero and emerged with the Paciello group. So if we're talking about legends.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Mark Miller: Mike Paciello is another one. Right. And we had been friendly. What I would call a friendly competitor helping each other back and forth with with that with the Paciello group anyways. And so we merged under them and it was sort of the second phase of my learning, you know I really had gotten an incredible foundation from Kathy, and then just being exposed to this wider group of accessibility professionals, I just continued to learn I had been involved in creating accessibility maturity models. We created one at Interactive Accessibility called Pax, the Proactive Accessibility Conformance Model. It kind of blended with what with what the Paciello Group was doing when we merged with them. So that name faded off. But I continued to work there on that and enjoyed another if I can do my math, eight years five, eight, five, six, five, eight plus five is 13. At the at what became TPG. Right. So TPG, the Paciello group and I was the I in interactive accessibility the little I.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.

Mark Miller: You know our logo and we just went through a lot of a lot of things in terms of building teams to you know, work with customers to bring customers on working on services, products, all of that to satisfy the needs in the industry. It was just really a great eight years. And then this summer, I moved away from that to start inclusion, impact, accessibility really wanting to go back into a boutique business situation and one where we could offer more of a concierge type service to our clients and really dig in deep. And this is so during this time, I also joined the W3c's accessibility maturity, the Model task force. I'm not going to give you the full name, but it's the task force that's creating the accessibility maturity model they're working with.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Let me pause for one second. So you know, you've gone from a fairly large in our industry, you know, pretty, pretty big player. Yep. And now you've stepped into creating your own entity. So just curious going from that kind of big universe to one where you get to shape what you do, your service offerings, the way you approach things. Maybe maybe you I think you said maybe you use the term deep, deep dive or dig into. But what? What aspects of you know, accessibility writ large really resonate with you? Where where do you feel your energies taking you in the new endeavor?

Mark Miller: Yeah. So what's interesting about that is that, you know, I can give you a very clear answer, which I will, but then there's also like an unclear side of it. So part of the excitement is the ability to chase down things that you didn't have the ability to chase down before and explore and expand those horizons. And for me, it's a little bit of a coming home, because that's what I really remembered and enjoyed from when when Interactive Accessibility was a small company. The things that really resonate with me is that I think, you know, a lot of the directions that we've seen larger organizations go in and this this is something I, you know, that's needed to a degree, But there's kind of a commoditization of the services. Right? And I think that that works in a lot of instances. But for me, it's much more interesting to meet the customer where they are and to really think about how do we how do we help this customer create a strategy for them that is going to lead to get them what they need today, right, in a in a way that's reasonable and lead to long term success. And there's a lot of buzzwords out there, and there's a lot of you got to shift left and you need, you know, but that's very, very different than really working with somebody really being able to dig in with an organization and maybe give them some things that are just unique to them, along with a lot of the things that, are, for lack of a better way to say it, I'll say, are standard, right? You know, people are going to need audits.

Mark Miller: People are going to need tooling and monitoring and all that kind of stuff. So that's that's typically going to be a part of it. And that is why the Maturity Model stuff is so exciting to me, because the maturity model is that step back and it says, let's take a look at the organization. Let's take a look at where it is now. And let's take it is a big the big version of it. Right. Unless, unless create a roadmap to bring it to a different state of capability incrementally right over time. So I think to answer your question, Kirk, it really is about that ability to be innovative with the organization, to be a true partner to to an organization and really help them solve problems instead of just you know, kind of putting, putting over services and tooling that you know, in, in kind of one way, I guess would be the way to say it, you know, more of a commoditized way.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so for those listeners who are not as conversant in the jargon or nomenclature of digital accessibility, can you explain to us what a maturity model is?

Mark Miller: Absolutely. So. So first of all, a maturity model is not something specific to accessibility. But as soon as I say put an A in front of it. Right. So that that's the accessibility part of it, right. So am accessibility maturity model. But a maturity model is, is really just a model by which an organization can mature the maturity part of it, a capability, a capability could be anything in this case, the capability that you and I think about is accessibility. So typically you can build your own model from scratch or you can take existing models. And that's what the is going on over under the watch of the W3C. Is that there by consensus, trying to create one that's sort of a good general model for anyone that wants to improve accessibility. So typically when an organization learns about this thing, accessibility figures out the need to conform to a guideline. You know, it could be for a lot of reasons, you know, that they enter into it. The first thing they do is they get an audit and they fix, let's just say it's a website, right? Your website could be an application, but they fix it. And when I say fix it, I mean they make it accessible. So audit tells them what's wrong. It tells them how to address things. They go in and for this moment in time, and that efforts complete. They have they're holding on to something that's accessible.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Gotcha.

Mark Miller: But websites move. So the accessibility doesn't doesn't stick around if you don't intentionally put processes in place in your within the organization, within the software development lifecycle that keep it accessible. So a maturity model is how do we step by step over time continue to improve and mature a practice like including accessibility in our development process. That's what the model is. And if you look at when we went to responsive design, nobody was doing responsive design. They had to bake building websites with responsive design into their policies, procedures, processes, all that kind of stuff. So it's the same type of type of effort that you think that makes sense for the.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Mark Miller: Yeah. Great.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Shift left shift.

Mark Miller: Left shift left.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I know I may say that phrase, I don't know, six, seven times a week. And I talk to people and I say, you know, I just even a newsletter I get there's, you know, tons of unlabeled graphics and you see the Jaws screen reader software is reading me the formatting detail saying, you know, shape rounded corner. I don't I don't need to hear that stuff. So, you know, I just I organizations I care about are involved with. I say, you know, whoever you're paying to do this require that they comply with the accessibility standards. And sometimes I'll say, you know, we call that shifting. It left. You don't have to do it. But whoever you're paying you know, you should require them to do it. Is that is that a fair summation of what shift left means, or is there more nuance?

Mark Miller: Yeah, there's probably a little bit more nuance, but I think I think, you know, to sum it up, that's it. The the term comes from, it's really a term that fits into the software development life cycle.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So okay.

Mark Miller: Really like real quick, you know, the software development lifecycle looks something like you create requirements, you make a design, the developers then develop the software according to that design QA, then test the software to make sure it works. Maybe there may be cycles and cycles and cycles here. But then once everybody, you know, once the thumbs up happen, then it goes into what's called production. And production is what you see. If it's if it's a website, when you go to the website, you're seeing the production version of the website. So when that's graphically represented, it's represented with that. With that, the requirements phase all the way to the left and then that final production phase all the way to the right. So when I, when somebody says, oh, we need to all of a sudden make our website accessible, what happens is on that all the way to the right on the production, that's where they do all the work. What's wrong? What do we fix? And that's the most expensive place to fix stuff.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Right?

Mark Miller: Because it's already out there. Right? It's like it's much easier to build something into the house while you're building it versus to retrofit it. Right. Cut the wall to add a window instead of adding it along the way. So shifting left is each step towards the left, away from that production or earlier earlier than production that you can make the less expensive. It is to include something like accessibility, the less likely you are to have things like accessibility issues enter into production, because once they enter into production, that's where risk occurs. The risk of Doctor Kirk Adams trying to look, trying to consume your website with his screen reader and having it not work because of the, you know, the things that you mentioned or having parts of it not work or having there be a barrier not allowing you to go further, that's a risk. And then, of course, there's legal implications as well when when those things don't work. So that's the genesis of it.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Got it. So so as far as inclusion impact accessibility goes are are you started last summer. Are you are you turning over? Are you sitting up? Are you crawling? Walking? Yes, running. Where are you at?

Mark Miller: Yes. No. So we're we're pretty new. We've got a lot of a lot of things on the table. Iron in the fire, you know, as as the as the as the founder and CEO, of course, I want I want to be running a lot faster than I am, but but realistically I know that that's that's that would be a, you know, unusual. So right now, I'm about where I expected to be at this period of time. We've got, you know, we've got clients we're working with and we're we're seeing that vision of really being something more to the client. And we're also we've got some software and development, you know, some. And this, this is the exciting stuff that I can run with that I was never able to run with before. But I've got a platform around being able to track your progress and create actionable plans. To improve your capabilities. According to the that accessibility maturity model. So we're that's not ready for prime time yet, but those are the things that we're working on in the background and just having a great time. So it's probably a casual walk and I'm not gonna stay in the park because it's not in the park. There's a lot of it's a casual walk, but there's a lot of obstacles, you know, trash cans tipped over on the sidewalk.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, right. Right.

Mark Miller: Icy. It's icy here. So, you know, we've got.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Ice.

Mark Miller: On a slip.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So the first time when I moved to New York to move into the honour of leading the American Foundation for the blind, they put us in corporate housing on 43rd, between eighth and ninth, which, you know, the city, it's very near Times Square. It's Hell's Kitchen, a block from the Port Authority.

Mark Miller: I'm familiar with it.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And I had an orientation and mobility instructor to help me learned my route to the office, which was at two Penn Plaza. So on seventh between 31st and 33rd escalator coming up from Penn Station, right, right next to the building. And ONM instructor said, you know, what's your experience in navigating heavily trafficked areas? I said, pretty good. And then we turned onto Seventh Avenue in about a block. I said. I said I need to tell you that I never experienced anything like this. Yeah. So I think it's that kind of a walk. Yeah. That that that came to mind. Yeah. And the one thing she said was don't don't trust the pedestrians. Don't cross when they cross because they will cross against the light all the time. So yeah.

Mark Miller: That's a good analogy, I think.

Dr. Kirk Adams: But yeah.

Mark Miller: Any businesses like that and you know, it's it creates a lot of excitement. I mean, it's.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, it does.

Mark Miller: That's what.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Keeps. Keeps the keeps the adrenaline level high.

Mark Miller: It does. Yeah. And I need I need that. We talked about the ad and the dyslexia. Right. So the that that adrenaline boost helps both of those things. Indeed.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so ideal. Ideal clients. Size of business, any particular industries, any characteristics of clients that, that. Yeah, tend to be a good fit with what you're doing.

Mark Miller: So the, the interesting thing is about that, you know, with the with 13 years in this industry, I was able to really put something robust together pretty quickly. So large clients are great. But also I was very careful to make sure that the model was would work with smaller clients, and that was more of a A choice on my part, because one of the things I think that the industry struggles with is offering robust but cost effective and overall effective solutions for the smaller business. It's a little bit harder to make money, you know, in the smaller businesses, to be honest, because it's the same amount of effort but for a smaller effort. However it's not impossible and I think that it's needed. So I really wanted to, you know, part of what we're doing is we're making sure that we can run those kind of things in, in a way that makes sense on both sides. And then, you know, I've worked with some of the largest logos in the world in my, in my history of, of accessibility here. And I'm poised to do that again. So I'm a big believer, if any, if any business entrepreneur people or or listening out there, I'm a big believer in a diverse portfolio. I think that that really helps businesses become accessible, accessible, successful. If you're relying on a few large clients, that's difficult if you're just, you know, spinning away at a bunch of small clients, that can be difficult as well. So a nice balance there. So that's what I'm really looking for is a nice balance. And I think that the ideal customer is one who wants somebody, wants an organization that's truly going to be there as a partner for them. If you just need services, we can do that. But I think our success is going to be in that true partnership.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I know, I know, you have a great disposition toward toward partnering. And you know, we're both in the persons with Disabilities Media Co-op that Aaron Douglas and mine Vault Solutions.

Mark Miller: Yeah it's a great.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Co managing we like to grow that. So I will put in a little plug for that. If you are interested in disability inclusion and want to get your messaging out and want to share your platforms with, with others so we can amplify each other's messaging certainly let me know. And I'm Kirk Adams at Dr. Kirk Adams. Com is my email address, and I'm on LinkedIn every day. So Kirk Adams, PhD on LinkedIn. So put it put it in a little plug for the PWD Media Co-op. And Mark, as you look for as you look forward down the road, you're less than a year in as founder and CEO of your company. What what what do you envision? You know, create creating the vision is the primary function of a leader, I think, and creating and holding that vision. So where do you see things going?

Mark Miller: Yeah. First of all, I just want to echo what you said about the co-op. I had a blog post go out on it this morning. It's an as a new business needing effective and cost effective ways to get the word out. It has been a real gem for me in my part of my vision is to use it more and more and more than I have. But it's I'm glad you said something, because it's great, but, yeah, the vision for the business is you know, there's a couple different directions I can see it going into, you know I could see it sort of staying very small and really doing a great job for a handful of clients, and I definitely. The one thing I know that I really, really want it to do is rapidly keep pace with changes in the industry. We're at a super interesting time. And in technology. Right. With, with artificial intelligence and the large language models out there. And a lot of people look at, you know, a lot of people look at that and they say, okay, well, how is artificial intelligence going to make it so that we don't need to do manual audits? You know, so these automated audits can can catch and that's, you know, a fine thing to think about. And we haven't seen that happen yet. At least I haven't been able to get my hands on something that really moves the needle that way yet. But for me, it's the other things that are interesting when it comes to a change like AI. Like, how is that going to change the screen reader that you use? How is that? And how is that changing the way that we develop software? Right.

Mark Miller: That's why these maturity models and stuff are so important. Because what a person needs to do to include accessibility in the development process is changing rapidly with video coding, with AI assisted coding. But what needs to be done? The shift left part of it, right? Having it included in that development process doesn't change. It's how you do it, right? So how do you effectively make sure that when you're coding with AI that you have in in this moment in time, it would be called a skill that you've developed a skill so that as that thing codes, it's thinking about accessibility. And I'm going to tell you right now, you can put all the skills in the world. It's just like any other situation. It doesn't it makes something better but not fully accessible. So you still need to test. You still need to come back around and remediate. You know, you need cycles in there when you find out it didn't quite do something right. And so now the way that we work with organizations and we talk about how to, how to do this thing called accessibility that shifts. So my vision is to keep, you know, is to have a company that is flexible and nimble enough to where it's sort of staying in front of those or not in front of, but closer to at pace with those, those kind of things. But to do that in a very human way, you know, so that we're, we're doing it for the people that it impacts and we're trying to help those organizations do it in a way that is, is is successful, is efficient, and is sustainable as possible. That's the vision.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I like to ask you to talk a few more minutes about AI. I'm not a technical person. I have a Perkins Brailler here and a slate and stylus in my bag. And you know, I use technology probably at about a three out of ten level of sophistication. But I went to Consumer Electronics Show, CES January in my role as an advisor to an, a shareholder in AI. And the last time I went was five years ago. And you had to have a positive Covid test before you get your registration badge. And it was all it was all robotics robots to do, the robots to cook, robots to mix your drinks, robots to deliver mail. This time everything was AI and a lot of stuff was seemed bolted on. And I, you know, my my layperson's understanding was a lot of things that I would call automation were being labeled as AI. So in the world of accessibility where do you see AI being helpful and where do you see pitfalls in the AI landscape vis a vis accessibility?

Mark Miller: Yeah. Well, the first thing I'll I'll say is that that changes every day. Ask me this question tomorrow. I might have a different answer for you. Right. Because of how rapidly this is changing. But I think the pitfalls are in overtrusting AI to be able to do what human beings are doing right now when it comes to the testing. Type thing. I think the really exciting areas are and you can, you can speak to this if this is your experience. But I've heard from a lot of my friends who are blind that they really rely on AI, that the traditional searching for information on the web is sort of cumbersome compared to you know, using an AI. So things like that are exciting. And I think that, you know, we're in an exciting place when it comes to coding. If you if you rewind a year or two, I think that most people were like this AI coding thing, and it's just making things worse, and it's coding fast but bad. You know, I think we're starting to approach today a period where people are going. Actually, I figured out how to make this thing right. Pretty good code. I'm not a developer, so take that with a grain of salt. You know I'm just kind of kind of reading the tea leaves, you know, a little bit from from what I hear my developer friends say. Yeah. So you know, so the exciting areas are. Well, if that's the case and with the ability for that coding to operate on right now, I think skills is the hot way to do it. Right. But it's basically you can tell the AI coder, hey, when you code you know, this is your skill, follow this group of things. And this is where we're looking. This is where my company is looking at this a lot as we're looking at how do you prompt AI and what do you feed AI to make sure it's as informed as possible on how code should be written to be accessible. Right.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.

Mark Miller: And and I'm not I'm not alone in doing that. A lot of people are doing that. But that's exciting, right? If we can if we can develop a way to say, hey, you know, code this thing, but you're always coding. And once you plug that in, it's like, this is how you always do it. You always do it accessibly. Yeah. And then how can we make this faster? How can we make the humans faster? So there's, you know, people are still going to need to test manually, but how can we make it faster when they when they take the issue that they find and they need to put it into a report. You know, that process between those two things, how can that be faster. You know, so there's a lot of really, really smart and and creative people out there that are looking at AI that way. And then I'll tell you one more thing that I find really interesting. And I've mentioned this a couple of times, but I have dyslexia, and I read early on, early on, midway through kind of our AI journey here, that it was going to bring back people with dyslexia. So we've had a hard time in business because we we look foolish, right? We would write an email and there would be misspellings in it, and we would take longer or miss things when we read stuff. And, you know, all these all these things that you can imagine that come with, with dyslexia. In fact, part of the way I accommodated this person with dyslexia is I use a screen reader, and I listen back to a lot of stuff that I write because I can hear mistakes and not see them.

Mark Miller: And but people with dyslexia put together seemingly unrelated concepts, thoughts, ideas really well. Right. So a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of innovators, a lot of your authors and rice are, are they're very narrative too. Right? So storytellers are dyslexic. And so it comes with these advantages because the brain works differently and the AI is kind of the perfect tool for that, right? It doesn't require that technical perfection. It is really quick to grab disparate data. Right. Different things and say let's mush these things together. Things together. Let's mush this together. So. And it you know, we're we're we have you know, short term memories, difficult and traditional learning scenarios. It gives us multimodal ways to consume content, which helps in learning. And then it it kind of doesn't require that. Same. So it's really interesting to, I think in how I'm sorry, this is a long winded, but my point here is how AI is going to impact and improve. And I'm talking about from the standpoint of dyslexia. But on the opposite end of that is, is is autism. How is it going to impact and improve the lives, the work lives, the productivity, the creativity, all those things for this neurodivergent group of people? You know, that's that's interesting to me.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So you're the first person I've talked to who's really talked about AI and dyslexia specifically. So that's super interesting to me. And I'd love to talk with you more about that next time we get together on a podcast interview. But how how would you how would you like people listening to engage? How would how would you like people to connect?

Mark Miller: Yeah. So my website is https://InclusionImpact.co. And the way you spell CO, is you spell it COM backspace.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Very good I'll remember that.

Mark Miller: Yeah that's that's how I type to this day I cannot my fingers want to type com but it's not com. It's Co. So you need that backspace in there to fix it. So you're welcome to reach out to me there. You can you can hit that contact form there and it'll I'll see it. Also just [email protected] gets to me. And here's what I want to say to people. I'd love to have conversations this moment in my day right now with you, Kirk is probably going to be the highlight of it because we're having a cool conversation and being an interview with me. It's I get to talk a lot, which is also exciting, but the so don't feel like you've got to be showing up to do business with me. If you need help, if you have thoughts, if you're just wondering, I am consultative by nature and I want to talk to you. And I want to if, if, if it just ends up being a great conversation, that's more than enough for me. But reach out.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. And same here. If you want to talk about disability inclusion and creating environments and opportunities where people are blind or have other significant disabilities can thrive in their lives according to their own definition of thriving. I'm up for that. I had a conversation today with a young lady who's just finishing her undergrad in neuroscience and is applying to PhD programs, and she's legally blind. And, you know, I had that PhD journey, so I was able to give her some encouragement and a couple tips, and direct her to a couple resources. There's a Facebook group for blind PhDs and PhD candidates she wasn't aware of. So it doesn't have to be a big thing, right? It can be a medium sized thing or a small thing. I know that's true for you, Marc. Yeah. And if people want to reach me again, it's [email protected] or @KirkAdamsPhD, on LinkedIn. And thanks for listening to another episode of a podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams, and we'll see you next time. Thanks so much, Mark.

Mark Miller: Thank you so much. Kirk, I really appreciate it. And thanks to everyone who listens to this podcast. I hope to you know, run into you all someday.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. And we'll we'll check in in about six months and have you back again in celebrate your progress. Thank you so much. And we'll catch you all later next time.

Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.