Practical Product w/ Jason Evanish

Key Links from this episode:

• Follow along with the questions Jason asked in his post How to do a Jobs to Be Done interview
• Links from Ryan's search for a mattress:
  • DreamCloud - The mattress Ryan ultimately bought
  • Wirecutter - A review site Ryan referrenced
  • Sleep Foundation
  • 33 Best Mattresses of 2022 on NYT - A site Ryan referenced in his search
• On Clayton Christensen and JTBD:
  • The Milkshake video and JTBD by Clayton Christensen
  • Clayton Christensen Institute 
  • How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton Christensen - A great book by JTBD co-creator on a healthy philosophy of life

Connect with Ryan Findley

• Ryan on LinkedIn
• Learn to Win

Learn more and connect with Jason Evanish:

• Get more product advice on Jason's blog
• For more product advice, thoughts on tech, and more, Follow Jason on Twitter 
• You can take your learning to the next level and get coaching from Jason or take his course here

Topics:

(0:35) - Introducing JTBD: What is Jobs to be done?

(3:03) - Setting the stage with the product Ryan recently bought

(3:45)- When did you first start thinking it was time for a new mattress?

(4:17) - When do you first start thinking about the mattress?

(4:34) - Who was involved in the purchasing decision?

(6:04) - How did you decide on DreamCloud?

(7:51) - How did budget play a role here?

(9:14) - Where did you go to get ratings and reviews?

(11:26) - What led to the 3 month delay in being able to finally get the product?

(13:45)- Zooming out: Black Friday & Forcing Functions

(21:36) - The purchase moment

(32:07) - Did you need customer support at all? 

(33:37) - How did this purchase differ from other things you buy?

(34:50) - What happened with a recent disappointing purchase you made?

(40:40) - Where did your buying discussions physically taking place?

(47:17) - Did you visit any third party locations when you were in the process?

(48:39) - Digging into Ryan's experience using what he purchased

(49:59) - Advice for marketers applying JTBD

(54:53) - Ryan’s thoughts on this experiment

(59:48) - Learn to Win & Connecting with Ryan

Key Links from this episode:

• ChatGPT - A chat based system by OpenAI that can provide written answers from a text-based prompt
• GPT-3 API - An API by OpenAI that allows you to bring GPT into your product or service.
• Replicate - Open source cloud API for running AI models
• Lore AI Newsletter - A free newsletter discussing business and creative applications for AI

Tweets and Threads on AI discussed:

• From Lazar: 
  • Twitter thread on ChatGPT getting things wrong
  • Example of the evolution of text to image quality improving
• A skeptic's take via tweetstorm on AI generating content
• Criticism of the politics and training models for ChatGPT
• Building an AI Therapist
• Building (another) AI Therapist
• ChatGPT scoring 70% on the USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Exam)
• Corrections made to the political bias of ChatGPT outlined
• AI answer Marc Andreesen's question about the First Amendment and private companies, using case law
• The tweet talking about someone who helped their landscaper using ChatGPT to improve their messaging

Articles and Blog Posts about AI:

• News:
  • Read about Jasper's $1.5B Valuation
  • Google fired employee who claimed their AI was sentient
  • The story of AI helping write the communication for a landscaper
  • An AI studying retinas reveals you can identify a person's gender with it
  • China requires AI to be labeled when used in media
• More writing and audio from Jason and his team on AI:
  • Jason on why intellectuals are wrong about AI bundling
  • Get Lighthouse evaluates ChatGPT Management Advice
• Tangent:
  • Man gets $100,000 from suing robocallers

Examples of AI tools:

• Apps that help you write copy using AI:
  • Copy.AI
  • Jasper
• Liner.ai - A tool to help you train your machine learning models easily
• Generative Video: Runway ML
• Generative 3D assets: 
  • Luma
  • Scenario
• Generative avatars:
  • avatarai.me - Pieter Levels's product 
  • astria.ai -what AvatarAI uses under the hood to power Pieter's app
• Apps that allow you to generate images from a text based prompt:
  • Dall-E
  • ClipDrop
  • Stable Diffusion
  • Midjourney
• Design tools:
  • Generative Mood Boards
  • Generative App Icons
• Sanas.ai - AI startup that fixes the call center staff's English in real time
• Coding:
  • Github's copilot helps you write code faster
  • Example of ChatGPT helping refactor code quickly

Connect with Lazar Stojkovic:

• Follow Lazar on Twitter
• Serbian Entrepreneurs

Learn more and connect with Jason Evanish:

• Get more product advice on Jason's blog
• For more product advice, thoughts on tech, and more, Follow Jason on Twitter 
• You can take your learning to the next level and get coaching from Jason or take his course here

Topics:

(1:09) - Introducing Lazar

(3:05) - How are you thinking about ChatGPT?

(8:19) - Is AI actually taking people’s jobs?

(18:44) - The pictorial side of  AI

(30:31) - 10x-ing AI, applications and potential negative outcomes

(46:27) - What to look forward to with AI

(53:44) - How do we look at the cost of AI?

(57:51) - How should Product Managers be thinking about AI implementation?

(1:09:01) - How might AI change business models?

(1:13:38) - Where do you suggest people go to learn more about this?

(1:21:12) - Would we even know if AI becomes sentient?

(1:27:10) - Wrapping up

Unfortunately, the product management interview process at most companies is poor. Navigating the interview process, or creating a good one at your company is a tall task.

In this wide-ranging interview we cover both perspectives to help you think about both the perspective of the interviewer and the interviewee.

For the interviewer:

• If you know you'll be hiring down the road, start planning now. Think about the skills you want, the values you want, and the process you'll follow. 
• Interviewing is a skill. Spend time reading and learning how to do it well. 
• It's much easier to create your interview plan in small, incremental steps leading up to when you need them than being buried, desperately needing help and spread too thin.
• Avoid puzzles, brain teasers, and hypothetical situations that are nothing like the job they'd have. Research shows it has no bearing on evaluating candidates effectively.
• If you're going to make an assignment, make it:
  • A reasonable time request (a few hours, not days worth of effort)
  • Consistently applied to everyone (don't give one person a day and someone else 2 weeks)
  • Involves what the job would really include. (Willis's example is a plan after an experiment / launch fails) 
  • Extremely clear what you'll evaluate them on and what you will not. (Like whether you care about design or format)
• Be proactive in communicating with your recruiting team. Enlist their help and expertise to find & close great candidates.
• Remember that hiring the wrong person is extremely expensive in time wasted by your team, cost on your budget, and setbacks on your projects. 

For the interviewee:

• Make your resume succinct and include data & numbers as much as covering skills and actions
• If you do not have numbers now, start working on it now. Get in the habit to look up numbers and see what work you did has moved the needle.
• Your resume becomes talking points and great questions in the interview.
• Prepare good questions to ask an interviewee to make sure the company does the kind of product management you like doing.
• Reflect on your current job regularly. Willis recommends weekly journaling on subjects like:
  • What wins have you had recently? What happened?
  • What did you learn from a project that recently didn't go well?
  • What do you enjoy about your work and want future jobs to also offer you? 
  • What's changed over time in my notes?

Helpful links mentioned in this episode:

• Work Rules by Laszlo Bock is about Google's learning about HR and People responsibilities, including interview tactics.
• Who: The A Method for Hiring by Geoff Smart
• Here's Intercom's guide to Product Management ladders and the PDF is here.
• How to Hire a Product Manager by Ken Norton

Learn more and connect with Willis Jackson

• Connect with Willis on LinkedIn
• Follow Willis on Twitter
• Check out Willis' website 

Learn more and connect with Jason Evanish:

• Get more product advice on Jason's blog
• For more product advice, thoughts on tech, and more, Follow Jason on Twitter 
• You can take your learning to the next level and get coaching from Jason or take his course here

Topics covered with timestamps:

(0:44) - Introducing Willis Jackson 

(2:18) - The different types of Product Management and how they affect interviews

(8:09) - How would you recommend a PM build up their hiring and interview skillset?

(12:30) - What resources would you recommend to learn how to do this well?

(17:15) - What are your thoughts on some of the ridiculous hypothetical questions we’ve seen in this industry?

(26:51) - The importance of networking, reputation and interviewing stories

(38:33) - What have you seen specific to assignments for candidates?

(52:43) - How do you feel about discussing company-specific problems with candidates?

(59:13) - How do you look at candidate resumes and how would you recommend people craft their resume?

(1:13:41) - As an interviewer, how can you signal what you’re looking for from a candidate?

(1:22:45) - How can a candidate figure out and advertise what they do and don’t love to do in Product Management?

(1:28:21) - Final thoughts 

I learned how to make a great product spec from long-time Silicon Valley product leader Josh Elman. He calls it the "Product Thesis" and that's what we cover today.

Here's a breakdown of the sections I talk about for The Product Thesis:
1. Why are we working on this next?
2. When and how do people use this feature? (aka - what are the use cases?)
3. What problems do we need to solve?
4. How much time is budgeted for this project, and when does this need to be completed?
5. What are the future considerations that must be accounted for?
6. What is our KPI or metric for this thesis?
7. For larger companies: Who are the stakeholders and how/when do they need to be involved?
8. Optional: What kind of launch or marketing/sales efforts go with this feature?
9. Further Reading (aka - links to data, interviews, designs, mockups, etc)

Helpful links mentioned in this episode:

• Follow Josh Elman on Twitter for more insights 
• Learn about the Product Cauldrons Steve jobs did in this post: What it's like to work with Steve Jobs 
• Read more about the Product Thesis here.
• Sign up here and I'll send you a template you can use to apply the product thesis at your job. 

Learn more and connect with Jason Evanish:

• Get more product advice on Jason's blog
• For more product advice, thoughts on tech, and more, Follow Jason on Twitter 
• You can take your learning to the next level and get coaching from Jason or take his course here

Topics from the show:

(0:00) - Today's episode overview

(0:49) - Mistakes made on the average Product Spec

(3:17) - The Product Thesis 

(8:02) - So how does it work?

(10:06) - What goes into a Product Thesis?

(12:05) - Why are we working on this next?

(14:57) - When and how do people use this feature? (Aka - what are the use cases?)

(18:24) - What problems do we need to solve, and in what priority?

(24:19) - How much time is budgeted for this project? When does this need to be completed by?

(25:56) - What are the future considerations that must be accounted for?

(27:28) - What is our KPI or metric for this thesis?

(29:59) - For larger companies: Who are the stakeholders and how/when do they need to be involved?

(31:14) - Optional: What kind of launch or marketing/sales efforts go with this feature?

(32:27) - Further Reading

(34:13) - Wrapping up

Today we talked about how building free tools (aka - side projects) for your company can help drive major growth.

Building these tools helps you a few ways:

1. People who use your free tool may directly sign up for your paid product when they see you made the free tool.
2. People using your free tool may give you their email address, which you can market to later.
3. Others will link to your free tool, boosting your SEO through improved backlinks.

Michael shares a lot wisdom and experience doing these, and the most important tips are:

• Build a portfolio: You need to launch many (ideally 4-5 or more) so that some will hit, and others won't. If you only launch one, the odds work against you on the moon and stars aligning for you. 
• Build in public/test with your community: To increase your success rate, validate and test the ideas you have for tools to see if they resonate and what are the most important things it needs to do to provide value. 
• Use low and no-code tools: You can build and launch a lot faster using these tools, and since it doesn't touch your core product, it doesn't need the perfect architecture. 

Links to Products, Case Studies & Tools Mentioned in this episode:

• Case studies and examples of Free tools:
  • See the SEO Boost Case Study Michael did with Threado
  • Threado.com/drops shows their full portfolio of free tools they've built
  • Buffer's free tools: Pablo and their Salary Calculator
  • AI Social Bio is a free tool Michael made for himself
  • Party Round built some free tools before pivoting to capital.xyz
  • TweetHunter has a set of free tools including Best Time to Tweet
  • ScrollMe 
  • Some great advice from Nick Gray on launching well

• No Code and low code tools to help you build your free tools:
  • Bubble
  • Webflow
  • Zapier
  • Airtable

Learn more and connect with Michael Novotny:

• Follow Michael on Twitter
• Connect with Michael on LinkedIn
• Subscribe to his newsletter here
• His business: Side Product Led Growth

Learn more and connect with Jason Evanish:

• Get more product advice on Jason's blog
• For more product advice, thoughts on tech, and more, Follow Jason on Twitter 
• You can take your learning to the next level and get coaching from Jason or take his course here

Topics from the show:

(0:56) - Introducing Michael

(2:04) - How did you discover the power of free tools to drive sign-ups for another product?

(5:02) - Were you seeing sign-ups as just blips or were there signs of sustained traction via this method?

(9:19) - How many ideas and tools made it out to the public?

(11:46) - What are a couple of your favorite examples of these tools?

(16:31) - What are some cases where you’ve seen free tools not working out?

(21:55) - Are there businesses that shouldn’t be creating free tools?

(29:05) - What is the Side-Product Framework?

(30:22) - Do these side products need to be put on the core domain?

(34:56) - How should PM’s think about budgeting for Side-Products?

(37:47) - How do you think about how robust a tool needs to be in order to be effective?

(42:08) - Do you have any stories on how you became inspired to build some of these tools?

(47:55) - How can you start to validate some ideas for tools to see if you’re on the right track?

(54:09) - What should people do to make these free tools successful?

(58:05) - What are the best ways to tie a free tool to your product?

(1:00:43) - Is it acceptable to ask for an email address to access a tool?

(1:03:32) - How much do you see these tools needing ongoing maintenance?

(1:09:18) - What are your favorite tools that help you piece this process together?

(1:10:24) - What are your thoughts on Bubble vs. Webflow?

(1:12:16) - Making sure this work doesn’t compete against working on the core product

(1:13:58) - How to pitch working on free tools

Books and other helpful links from today's episode:
Many books and great blog posts were mentioned in this episode. Here's a rundown of the books:

• Asking good questions and winning negotiations: Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
• Metaphors We Live By by George Lakoff & Mark Johnson
• Learn to work with others better with: The 4 Tendencies - Analyzing Motivations by Gretchen Ruben
• Learn to be a better writer and communicator with: On Writing Well by William Zinssser

And blog posts for you to read:

• Learn how to connect with anyone on your team by Building Rapport
• Hear another interview with Valentina focused on general remote leadership with the Lighthouse's Conversation w/ Valentina
• Learn how to have innovative discussions with your team and whiteboard remotely with Brainwriting (this is a Miro template for it)
• Learn how to facilitate meetings well and communicate with your team better: 
  • Valentina recommends Workshop Wednesdays and Make Team Work
  • And Remote-How.com is a marketplace for more help with remote challenges
• One of the best ways to build connection across departments and teams is with Peer 1 on 1s. 
  • Learn how to use Peer 1 on 1s across teams
  • Learn more specifically how to use peer 1 on 1s as a product manager here
• Learn from Valentina on LinkedIn: "What should they ask in interviews to tell if the company does remote well?"

More on Valentina Thörner:

• Valentina on LinkedIn and the company she works for Klaus
• Valentina's Website
• Valentina's Substack
• And her book: From A Distance - A Practical Guide to Remote Leadership by Valentina Thörner

More on Jason Evanish:

• Get more product advice on Jason's blog
• For more product advice, thoughts on tech, and more, Follow Jason on Twitter 
• You can take your learning to the next level and get coaching from Jason or take his course here

Episode Topics:
(0:50) - Introducing Valentina Turner

(1:43) - What are some of the biggest changes when someone shifts to a remote PM role?

(11:38) - How can a Remote PM be successful?

(14:55) - How do you advise Remote PM’s to think about understanding how their team is feeling and reacting to their work and communication in an asynchronous environment?

(18:57) - How do you tell if your team is on the same page when everyone is remote?

(24:00) - Do you think the ideal product team size is different for remote vs. in-person?

(26:54) - How do you avoid meeting & Zoom overload?

(39:52) - What makes a good discussion meeting, and when do you need to have those on the calendar?

(42:16) - How do you create the collaborative juices from a whiteboarding session to a remote team?

(48:48) - How often do Remote product teams need to be together in person?

(51:53) - How much would you think about geolocation when it comes to constructing pods?

(58:49) - What are ways PM’s can prepare themselves for the shift to a remote-first organization?

(1:04:54)- What questions would you recommend asking when sussing out if a remote company is the right fit?

(1:14:15) - What skills would you recommend developing for folks looking to become remote PM’s?

(1:20:32) - What are things that are good ways for folks to build their writing and communication skills?

(1:27:10) - Are there any more skills people need to develop to be great Remote PM’s?

(1:31:20) - Wrapping up

(1:33:19) - How can people find you online?

This episode is a collection of my thoughts on some trending topics I am seeing in the world of Tech and Product Management.

1. We are in a Bundling Phase: How can we as Product Managers bundle our offerings for consumers who are concerned about economic instability? We need to establish our products as absolute must have's in the eyes of our customers and recognize the new market dynamics to survive and thrive .

2. Let's stop the Self-Deprecation in Product Managers: Don't be the "this is fine" dog meme, be part of the solution when you see negative trends within the culture or product at your organization.

3. The Truth about AI & the Future of Work: I break down a clip from Yuval Noah Harai and his horrendous take on the "Useless Class" of folks he predicts will grow as technology continues to advance. We must shut push back on this rhetoric and build tools for an abundant AI future.

Links from the topics discussed:

On the Bundling Phase: 

• Hiten Shah on the great rebundling  
• Jason's response to Hiten's tweet

On AI and the Future of Work:

• Yuval Noah Harari: Workplace Automation & the “Useless Class"
• The dark history of calling some people "useless"
• The Twitter conversation on Copywriting AI that shows no jobs lost
• On blue collar work availability: "About 4 million vacancies remained in industries responsible for most transportation, construction, and mechanical needs nationwide" 
• Learn about Mike Rowe and his "work ethic scholarships" training the next generation of much needed blue collar workers

More on Jason Evanish:

Get more product advice on Jason's blog
Follow Jason on Twitter
Get coaching from Jason or take his course

Topics:

(0:28) - Introducing Trending Topics

(1:27) - Bundling within companies amidst economic uncertainty

(6:34) - What to do as a PM when you see customer churn due to bundling

(9:37) - Building tighter relationships with Sales and CS

(10:23) - Understand your secret sauce

(12:37) - Self-Deprecation in Product Managers

(17:29) - Yuval Noah Harari on the “Useless Class” & The future of work with AI

(29:22) - Product Managers can be part of the solution

(32:04) - Final Thoughts & Recap

More on Hostos:

Hostos on LinkedIn
Learn about The Waterline Principle

More on Jason Evanish:

Get more product advice on Jason's blog
Follow Jason on Twitter
Get coaching from Jason or take his course

Topics:

(0:33) - Introducing Hostos
(2:14) - What is it like being a First-PM the 4th time around?
(3:19) - What were you looking out for when taking on this new role?
(5:53) - How did you think about filtering the Founder?
(9:14) - What are the awesome parts of this kind of role?
(15:07) - What are some of the hardest lessons you’ve learned as a First-PM?
(16:25) - How do you think about hiring while being in lockstep with your team of engineers and designers?
(20:14) - What do you think the ratio of PM’s to Engineers should be?
(22:31) - Do you look for PM’s with specific skill sets or ones who are generalists?
(25:17) - What advice would you have for someone interested in taking on the First-PM role?
(38:40) - What should potential PM’s look for in a company to determine if it’s a good fit?
(46:52) - What would you recommend someone does if they think some of these pitfalls apply to their situation?
(48:11) - What advice would you give to founders thinking about hiring their First-PM?
(51:28) - When is the right time to hire a First-PM?
(54:00) - How can the First-PM be set up for success?
(56:12) - How can people find you online?

Why do so many 1st PMs end up not working out? What can we learn from these situations, where a founder hires a PM and then things don't work out?

In our first of a 2 part series, we interview a founder who knew about the curse of the 1st PM and it still didn't work out. Pulkit Agrawal, co-founder of Chameleon, candidly reflects on lessons learned from their 1st PM not working out and what he's doing differently the second time around. We look at how this is often a blameless set of circumstances that evolve as the company grows and makes it so someone who was a fit at the time may not be a fit as you grow.

This sets up for next episode's guest, where we talk to multi-time 1st PM, Hostos Monegro, who shares the employee perspective on this exciting, but challenging role at startups.

More on our guest, Pulkit Agrawal, co-founder of Chameleon:

Learn more about Pulkit's company, Chameleon
Find Pulkit on LinkedIn
Get in touch: Pulkit @ chameleon.io
While they just filled their 2nd, 1st PM role, you can Apply for any of their other openings here

More on Jason Evanish:

Get more product advice on Jason's blog
Follow Jason on Twitter
Get coaching from Jason or take his course

Topics:

(2:37) - What was your experience hiring your first PM?
(5:35) - How has your approach changed for hiring PM #2?
(6:27) - What got you excited about the person you ultimately hired for the #1 role?
(7:37) - What traits were you looking for in candidates?
(8:39) - Were there any concerns that you perhaps overlooked?
(10:15) - Was there an initial ‘honeymoon’ phase as they were integrating with the team?
(13:52) - When did you start to realize things may not be working out?
(18:28) - How did you handle the transition of a PM leaving the team?
(25:13) - Is it inevitable that the first PM will never be a perfect fit?
(28:23) - Do you think hiring a designer & QA person first would’ve helped you more than a first PM?
(30:31) - What strengths are you looking for in this next PM?
(34:02) - How are you thinking about changing your hiring process the second time around?
(35:44) - What advice would you give a founder who’s considering hiring their first PM?
(43:17) - How can the founder set the PM up for success?
(45:03) - What advice would you have for PM’s interviewing for a first PM role?
(48:52) - What are some red flags candidates need to look out for?
(50:46) - What advice would you give to current first-PM’s?

Jason Cohen is a multiple-time founder and Product Leader who joins us as the very first guest on Practical Product to break down his article: The Impossible Product Manager, a.k.a. the "Great" Product Manager.

We discuss the 4 key areas of responsibility for a Product Manager, how to align your PM's as a leader, finding the right company to work for, hiring and so much more. Jason breaks down how to master each role, and what to do as a PM when you are feeling spread too thin across each. We also discuss screening for PM's to make sure we've got the best fit, auditing your role to free up your own time, and more. Enjoy!

More on Jason Cohen:

Jason’s Blog: a smart bear
The Impossible Product Manager, a.k.a. the "Great" Product Manager
Jason Cohen on Twitter

More on Jason Evanish:

Get more product advice on Jason's blog
Follow Jason on Twitter
Get coaching from Jason or take his course

Time Codes:

(1:47) - Jason’s background and the 4 areas of responsibility for a Product Manage
(7:22) - Are there any areas of responsibility that matter more than others?
(12:21) - With 1200 employees, how do you think about getting the right PM’s aligned?
(21:33) - Not spending enough time on the “why” of your product strategy
(27:40) - How should someone screen for a PM role to make sure they’re the best fit?
(32:53) - How should a Product Leader who is looking to hire PM’s account for the 4 roles and build out their teams?
(36:53) - What should a PM do when they feel spread too thin doing all 4 roles?
(45:07) - How should Product Leaders get the entire team to align on strategy, not just the PM’s?
(48:17) - Auditing your role as a PM to free up time
(53:46) - Where can people find you online?