Lacey and Nik speak to Danielle Negrin of the San Francisco Psychedelic Society about her experience using psychedelics (or plant medicines) as a tool in her recovery from opioids and pharmaceuticals. They talk about the concept of sobriety and if you can use a psychedelic and still consider yourself "sober" and how to "deprogram the program" if you find the disease model and tenets of 12 step to be unhelpful for your recovery. They also discuss the stigma and possible shame that can come up when you forge your own path in recovery.