In this episode, Jeff Mains sits down with Radhika Dutt, author of Radical Product Thinking, to challenge the conventional wisdom around goal-setting, KPIs, and OKRs. Radhika reveals why chasing metrics can actually distort behavior and undermine long-term growth, introducing a powerful alternative: treating growth like a puzzle rather than a scorecard.

The conversation explores how well-intentioned targets create perverse incentives, why measures should be tools for insight rather than evaluation, and how a curiosity-driven approach—using the OHLA framework (Observe, Hypothesize, Learn, Adapt)—helps teams make smarter decisions in real-world conditions. Radhika shares compelling examples from OpenAI, maritime SaaS platforms, and robotics companies to illustrate how puzzle-solving beats goal-setting for sustainable growth.

Whether you're drowning in dashboards or hitting targets while feeling like something's off, this episode offers a refreshing lens on progress, leadership, and building momentum without the performance theater.

Key Takeaways

[0:00] - Episode introduction and overview of why goal-setting may be backfiring

[4:48] - The fundamental problem with KPIs and OKRs: Goodhart's Law and Campbell's Law explained

[6:28] - Dutt's Law: "A measure is only useful as a tool for insight, not a yardstick for evaluation"

[7:16] - Real-world example: How OpenAI's user engagement targets led to dangerous "sycophantic AI"

[10:37] - The hidden dangers of hitting targets while ignoring negative indicators

[11:44] - Introduction to puzzle-setting vs. goal-setting mindset

[12:09] - The OHLA framework explained: Observe, Hypothesize, Learn, Adapt

[17:51] - Case study: Why improving filters wouldn't have solved the real problem

[28:47] - The performance theater trap: Why jumping to solutions feels comfortable but fails

[30:28] - How to get customer meetings when people say "you should already know this"

[33:00] - Why in-person observation matters more when mental models differ

[36:27] - Growth comes from matching user mental models, not forcing adoption of yours

[37:47] - The Tesla UI example: When "cool" design ignores user mental models

[37:47] - Top-down vs. bottom-up: How to introduce puzzle-solving in organizations

[39:27] - Why leaders fear losing control and how to address it

[43:01] - Vision-driven vs. iteration-led: Crafting a detailed, actionable vision statement

[45:41] - Example vision statement that tells the whole story without mentioning the product

[48:03] - Why detailed visions create ownership better than memorable slogans

[50:01] - One mindset shift founders can make this week to reduce performance theater

Tweetable Quotes

1. "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. We've known this since 1975, yet we keep setting goals for metrics."
2. "A measure is only useful as a tool for insight, not a yardstick for evaluation. That's the critical mindset shift."
3. "When you set targets, everyone's incentive is to show you they've hit that target. You don't look at the negative numbers to see what's actually happening."
4. "Puzzles trigger curiosity and questioning. If you already know the answers, there's no puzzle. That's the difference from goals."
5. "Nobody wants to fail. We keep saying we want to embrace failure, but targets make people want to prove they're high performers—not look at bad numbers."
6. "Growth in SaaS comes not from getting users to adopt your mental model, but from understanding their mental models and building products that match them."
7. "Leaders are the last to know because everyone shows you what you want to see. Puzzles give you real answers from the trenches."
8. "When you buy into a vision and understand it, you can describe it in your words—not repeat a slogan. That's when you've internalized it."
9. "Man plans, God laughs. When you run into obstacles, those are the puzzles you have to solve to achieve your vision."
10. "Solving puzzles is driven by internal desire. We want to solve puzzles as humans and high performers—it creates ownership, not obligation."

SaaS Leadership Lessons1. Measures Are for Insight, Not Evaluation

Stop using metrics as judgment tools. When measures become targets, they get gamed (Campbell's Law) and cease to be good measures (Goodhart's Law). Instead, use data to understand what's happening—both good and bad—rather than to prove you've hit arbitrary numbers. This shift from evaluation to insight prevents teams from hiding problems and gaming the system.

2. Replace Goals with Puzzles Using the OHLA Framework

Transform your approach from goal-setting to puzzle-solving with OHLA: Observe (identify the problem and open questions), Hypothesize (make your first attempt), Learn (ask "how well did it work?" and "what did we learn?"), and Adapt (determine "what will we try next?"). This creates genuine curiosity, reduces performance theater, and helps teams embrace learning without the stigma of "failure."

3. Observe Before You Hypothesize

Resist the urge to jump straight to solutions. Spend time in the problem space, even though it's uncomfortable. The maritime SaaS example showed that improving filters (the obvious solution from data) would have done nothing for the larger market opportunity. By observing tech-averse users in other roles first, the company doubled sales two years in a row by addressing the real problem.

4. Match User Mental Models, Don't Force Yours

Growth comes from understanding how your users think and work, then building products that fit their mental models—not from forcing them to adopt yours. When mental models differ significantly (tech-averse users, different industries, non-engineers), in-person observation becomes critical. Watch them work, see what they do outside your platform, and ask questions about their actual workflow.

5. Craft Detailed, Actionable Visions

Forget short, memorable slogans. A powerful vision uses a fill-in-the-blank statement that answers: Whose problem are you solving? What is the problem? Why does it need solving? What does the world look like when you're done? How will you bring it about? When team members can describe the vision in their own words (not repeat a tagline), they've internalized it and taken ownership.

6. Start Small and Build Confidence

When introducing puzzle-based thinking, don't demand teams abandon OKRs immediately. Start by having product teams present progress in OHLA format while leadership still uses OKRs. As teams demonstrate competence in puzzle-solving and leaders see they gain "real control" (ears on the ground, anticipation, actionable insights), the transition becomes natural. Role model the approach by reflecting on past initiatives using the three questions.

Guest Resources

[email protected]

https://www.radicalproduct.com/toolkit/#OHLToolkit

https://www.linkedin.com/in/radhika-dutt/

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