Chris was unavailable for this episode so it was just Jamie and Ilyas talking about the Real Cost of Prisons with activist Lois Ahrens. We discuss what are the drivers behind mass incarceration in Massachusetts and what people who want to advocate for change can do to force their elected officials to take action. This is a great conversation for those who wonder why nothing was ever done about what happened at the drug labs and with other scandals in Massachusetts involving law enforcement.