Where does reality sit in the entertainment landscape—as its crowd-pleasing future or in its sordid past? We sit down with prolific reality producer Craig Armstrong (The Hero, Fashion Star, King of the Nerds) to talk about how the genre is hard to classify, as it’s got as many tiers and categories as movies and scripted TV. As guest host Gren Wells helps the panel drink three cheap(ish) bottles of Australian Cabernet Sauvignon, they discuss the ingredients of a successful reality series, how Armstrong got his start in Hollywood producing videos for “Weird Al” Yankovic, and how a moment with his toddler son in the kitchen led to a popular international reality show still airing today.