Matt and Hilary say goodbye to *Red Mars.* We talk about the New York Times' review of the book (Matt was too lazy and busy to find other, more relevant reviews). Hilary tells us how to read science fiction. We take a deepish dive into Arkady and Hiroko, two charismatic and enigmatic characters that the reader has to construct based on other characters' perceptions and interactions.

We talk about SF's status as a literary genre and Matt hits Hilary with a doozy of a question about the status of *Red Mars* as a realist novel, which Hilary handles with her characteristic aplomb and brilliance, and gives a primer on realism vs. utopia the likes of which will not be surpassed in any other KSR-based podcast, I can tell you! Matt reads a line from Walter Benjamin to try to appear smart.

We set goals for the podcast going forward, foremost of which is GUESTS, especially SCIENTISTS. If you're a SCIENTIST who wants to be a GUEST, please get in touch!