In a time of poly crises, uncertainty and peaking distrust, governance systems are facing immense pressure. In this episode, we delve into the world of complex ideas about transformational change of our governance systems. What is transformation, what does it entail for decision making and systems of governance in the 21st century, and what systemic changes are required for the survival of democracy and the planet? Fortunately, we have two distinguished experts with us to reflect upon these questions, Lindiwe Mazibuko and Indy Johar.