The podcast relaunches with an interview with Sisters Theresa Aletheia Noble and Danielle Victoria Lussier. They are the Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness, a new, “Private association of the faithful intending to become a religious institute.” (That’s church language for, The Sisters are in the yearslong process of officially being recognized as a new order of nuns.) The Sisters’ stated mission focuses on, “Listening and solidarity with people on the fringes of the Church, especially those who have been wounded, scandalized, or abused by members of the Church.”

I wanted to interview them for many reasons: I was struck by their courage in speaking out about the grooming and abuse they experienced at the hands of a spiritual director. The power of their new audio documentary podcast “Descent into Light”-- which draws on their experiences as survivors to illustrate the broader picture of how adult abuse unfolds in spiritual settings– has hooked me and Bethany as we consider how to build a ministry and small organization with transparency and accountability. 

On an even more universal level, I was drawn to their perspective on finding vocation and belonging within an institution that has harmed them. How do you relate to an institution, even after it has harmed you? Can you stay with integrity, without your presence tacitly supporting the systems and leaders that failed you? 

I believe their reflections about hearing a call - in the darkness of their suffering and as a response to the harm they endured - is a beacon for all of us who wonder how to follow Jesus within the church. I believe their reflections on choosing to remain in the church, even after its flawed systems enabled abuse against them, are valuable to hear for all of us wondering if and how to find our place in the ancient and imperfect institution.

At the website Sisters of the Little Way you can read more about their journey to leave their former order and start a new one, including time spent ministering to the homeless on the streets of Portland, Oregon, and studying at the Gregorian in Rome to receive a diploma in Safeguarding; learn how to support their mission; follow their writing on Substack; and listen to their podcast.

I hope you find in this interview new understanding about abuse in spiritual settings, practical suggestions for helping survivors and preventing future abuse, and a doorway to the Sisters’ beautiful and important podcast and ministry.

The Rev. Dr. Michael Woolf is Senior Pastor of Lake Street Baptist Church in Evanston, Illinois as well as the author of Sanctuary and Subjectivity: Thinking Theologically About Whiteness and Sanctuary.

In a moment when the question of how the church supports the immigrant community is of utmost importance, I wanted to speak to him because of the many perspectives

We talked about Michael’s joint call to ministry and

If you want to read more of Michael’s writing there are links to his book and numerous articles here:

- Michael’s webpage with links to his writing and sermons

-     Sanctuary and Subjectivity: Thinking Theologically About Whiteness and Sanctuary

For any person of faith troubled and outraged by President Trump’s promise to deport 11 million people and wondering “What can I do?” “How can I be effective?” “How do I plug in?” listen to the Rev. Dr. Alexia Salvatierra. In this interview I talk about these questions and more with the organizer, author,

Alexia’s lengthy list of books and articles can be found at the Fuller Seminary website where she has taught since 2014 and is Academic Dean for Centro Latino and Associate Professor of Mission and Global Transformation. I reached out to her, however, not primarily because of her academic accolades but because of her extensive experience leading faith-based organizations for immigrants rights. As it says in the introduction of her newest book, God’s Resistance,

We talk not only about ethical and effective support of migrants in the US at this moment but also about her formation and call as madrina, or godmother, of faith-based movements for immigrant rights; the theology of the border and the limits of Christian love; her involvement in the Sanctuary movement of the 80s and how that experience shaped Alexia to lead the New Sanctuary Movement beginning in 2007; the divide between Right and Left in today’s media environment around immigration and the role of immigrant churches in bridging it; the tactics she expects Trump to take against migrants and which will be most pernicious; how White churches can support immigrant churches; and how as Christians “all children are our children”.

You can see a reference list of legal terms, organizations, and leaders in the movement in my post about the episode at duncanhilton.net

Have you ever sensed something true and beautiful in the words and witness of the likes of Martin Luther King Jr, Cesar Chavez, or Dorothy Day – Christians who believed that the gross inequality in America was sinful; that the inequality had more to do with sinful societal structures than with individual behavior; and that Christians bear responsibility for resisting and reforming those systems? Have you ever wondered about the history of this theological tradition which scholars call “social Christianity ”, and what knowing that history can teach us about how to keep the tradition alive today?

I talked about these matters with Heath Carter, Associate Professor of American Christianity at Princeton Theological Seminary and its  Director of PhD studies. Heath is the author of numerous books and articles, including Union Made: Working People and the Rise of Social Christianity in Chicago (Oxford University Press, 2015). We talked about: his call as a professor writing at the intersection of Christianity and American public life; why he thinks we’re living in a “New Gilded Age” and what that means for the direction of the social Christian tradition today; understanding the place of the Catholic Worker in the social Christian lineage; and why he’s an “evangelist for institutions.”

Beyond just the pleasure of learning more about the history of the social Christian tradition, I enjoyed Heath’s honesty and optimism about the decline of mainline Protestant churches. Speaking about Princeton Seminary he said, “We've been in the past a finishing school for elite Presbyterians, and all these worlds that we've long served are now going away. And so, what new life will come up in the midst, even as this thing that is definitely dying is dying, and in my lifetime will be mostly gone?” I appreciated how Heath could hold two things to be true, in a single sentence and in a whole interview: the reality of the breakdown of the “ecclesiastical machinery”, and the simultaneous possibility for the emergence of creative and daring new ministries, and important and long-lasting institutional reforms.

Go to duncanhilton.net or https://duncanhilton.substack.com/ for a post about this podcast and more links to Heath's work and background related to the interview.

How does a White Evangelical guy from Southern California end up as a jail chaplain and pastor to Latino gang members in the Skagit Valley, north of Seattle? How has that work been a process of mutual transformation for him and the men he works with? How do differences in White and Latino cultures affect the possibilities and challenges of ministry in jail? How does the White Savior complex manifest in him and in the churches he equips? What spiritual practices “work” for men in solitary confinement? What are the broader lessons for Christians about with whom and where to read the Bible, the connection between visiting the imprisoned and genuinely belonging to a place, and the messiness and gloriousness of following Jesus?

I talked about all this with Chris Hoke – Founder and Executive Director of Underground Ministries, Presbyterian minister, author, father, and husband.  Chris has been working as a jail chaplain in the Skagit Valley for nearly twenty years. In 2015 he wrote Wanted: A Spiritual Pursuit Through Jail, Among Outlaws, and Across Borders (HarperCollins) about his own journey and transformations in the gang members he has worked with. As a chaplain he also founded Underground Coffee, a roasting business employing formerly incarcerated people, and Underground Writing, a writing program for at-risk communities.

For all his success, what stood out most from our conversation was Chris’ honesty and vulnerability about his failure. In 2018 Chris learned about betrayal and deceit committed by Neaners - a former gang member whom Chris had accompanied as a chaplain through prison and release, one of the main people in his book, his Underground Ministry Co-Founder, and a “best friend” and “primary teacher.” Chris reflected on his terror, shame, despair and near nervous breakdown as the truth came to light;  his own willful blindness leading up to the revelation; and how, out of that trial, and despite his initial resistance, Chris started with others the One Prisoner One Parish program to equip faith communities to build supportive relationships with prisoners and accompany them after their release.

Helpful Links:

Do you ever have a nagging sense – maybe when you hear Jesus tell the “Rich Young Ruler” to sell everything he has and give it to the poor, or when Jesus tells his disciples that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God– that Jesus had a different message about wealth than much of what gets said in church: “Support the stewardship campaign!” “Give generously!” “We need to be prudent stewards of the endowment!”

Miguel Escobar, after many years working as a self-described “church bureaucrat” for Episcopal institutions in New York City, had such a nagging sense; so, he researched and wrote a book exploring his questions more deeply, The Unjust Steward: Wealth, Poverty, and the Church Today. The book looks at the evolution of Christian thinking about money over the course of its first 500 years through twenty-four “snapshots” of Christian theologians and saints from that time period.

I found Miguel to be an insightful and provocative conversation partner based on his intimate knowledge of very different worlds of faith and wealth. Growing up in small-town Texas, as the grandson of Catholic migrant farm workers, Miguel has a deep appreciation for how the announcement of Jesus’ arrival as the Son of God in the Gospel of Luke heralds good news for the poor. As Mary sings in the Magnificat, “[God] has brought down the powerful from their thrones and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty.” In the world of his grandparents, Mary’s news about what God promised for the rich and for the poor was Good News. As an adult, Miguel has worked for the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, the Episcopal Church Foundation, and for Episcopal Divinity School at Union. In these roles, he has worked with and for wealthy organizations and individuals. For them (and for me), Mary’s news is challenging news.

Miguel and I talked about the worlds and experiences that have shaped his thinking around Christianity and wealth; the history of the church “stewardship campaign” and its ethical complexity; his advice for wealthy churches like Trinity Wall Street (Trinity has over $6 billion in its real estate portfolio); the parable of the unjust steward as an alternative ethic for “promiscuous generosity” (a phrase Miguel credits to Louie Crew); how to work through feelings of hypocrisy and shame around being wealthy and Christian toward faithful action; and the threat of middle-class churches becoming “boutique version[s] of Christianity” that don’t include the poor.

Helpful Links

In the Gospel of Matthew, when Jesus’s followers express worry about having sufficient food, drink, and clothes, Jesus answers, “Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you” (6:33). What if you decided to wager your life on Jesus’ claim? What if you decided to live as if those words were just as true today? Where would God lead you? What would your days look like? How would you provide for your children?

Tensie Hernandez and Dennis Apel decided almost thirty years ago to wager their lives on those words of Jesus. They left Los Angeles with just $300 to their names, drove up the coast of California, and found themselves led to Guadalupe, a town of 8,000 people, mostly undocumented farm workers. “The Spirit just kept opening doors,” said Tensie. Those doors led to creating a Catholic Worker house of hospitality called Beatitude House, as well as a free medical clinic, a food distribution center, and a clothing distribution program. Doors also opened to parenting two children and decades of monthly non-violent resistance or “vigils” outside the gates of the nearby Vandenburg Air Force Base. That led to a four-month prison sentence for Dennis, and a supreme court case.

How did their call unfold? What have been the blessings and challenges of raising kids while living a life of voluntary poverty?1 Reflecting on nearly three decades in Guadalupe, what are they most proud of? What have they learned about drawing on the wisdom of Dorothy Day without making an idol of her or the Catholic Worker model? What is their advice for others feeling drawn to create similar communities?

I talked about these questions and more with Dennis and Tensie. Having made that wager thirty years ago, I was struck by Dennis and Tensie’s gratitude and sense of abundance. I hope your heart will be touched, too.

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How do you respond when you feel called to center your life around an ancient rhythm of prayer, and care for the land? The obvious option is to become a Benedictine monk or nun. But what if you also feel called to marriage and raising children?

Seven years ago Lisa and Mark Kutolowski created Metanoia Vermont in Strafford, Vermont to live out these multiple calls. (In full disclosure, I am a friend of Mark and Lisa’s and a former board member of Metanoia). On a few dozen acres they welcome guests and interns, and seek themselves, to “live the Way of Christ through prayer, work, and study in relationship with the land.”1 This means raising livestock, growing a garden, tending a woodlot, caring for children, and, in between all that, praying six times a day (see their typical daily schedule).

What led them to create Metanoia? How are they up to something beyond, in Lisa’s words, “doing monasticism poorly with kids running around”? How have their young children enhanced the community’s prayer life? What have been the blessings and challenges of the ministry on their marriage? What are the “shadows” of Metanoia, the temptations and dangers of a life of prayer and work on a Vermont hill farm? How do they think about wealth and poverty and their choices around money? At the cost of inclusion, what have been the benefits of creating a community that is not interfaith, but specifically rooted in the Roman Catholic tradition? As they reflect during their sabbatical after the start up chapter of Metanoia, what are their hopes for the next chapter? I talked about these questions and more with Mark and Lisa this past week.

Helpful Links

How do you grow in faith, hope and love and also confront

Go to duncanhilton.net for an archive of podcasts and newsletters, info about joining online prayer groups, and to make a donation.

I spoke with Steve Haynes this week about the question at the heart of the book. Can church be more like AA? How exactly? Or, is it a fool’s errand to try to make church more like AA based on the structural differences between the two groups: anonymous membership versus public membership; and paid, professional leadership versus non-professional, decentralized leadership? Haynes is professor of religious studies at Rhodes College, and theologian-in-residence at Idlewild Presbyterian Church in Memphis, Tennessee. He has authored several other books, including The Battle for Bonhoeffer: Debating Discipleship in the Age of Trump and The Last Segregated Hour: The Memphis Kneel-Ins and the Campaign for Southern Church Desegregation.

In our conversation we talk about: Steve’s own journey in recovery and how it changed his views on church culture; exactly what aspects of 12 step fellowships churches seek to emulate and how they have failed and succeeded; pastors’ centralized leadership as the “kiss of death” to efforts to incorporate twelve-step culture into churches; race, class, and gender dynamics underlying the question motivating the book; and what a longing for church to be more like AA and other 12-step fellowships says about this moment in the life of the church

One thing that stands out to me after speaking with Steve is how he senses that the 12-step movement gives people a taste of what first century Christian fellowship may have been like. Frank Buchman, one of the Christians who influenced the development of AA wrote, “the age of miracles has returned.” What if the age of miracles really has returned? What if it dawned in 12-step meetings in church basements and now the challenge isn’t just to let the light into the sanctuary, but for people to carry that light inwardly and let it guide the formation of new Christian communities?

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