🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #74: Interview with Freek van Welsenis, Co-Founder, Hable | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-10-2026/

In this insightful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Freek van Welsenis, co-founder of Hable, for a practical, no-nonsense conversation about what it really takes to build assistive technology that people can rely on. Donna introduces Freek as a mission-driven innovator, and Freek traces his motivation back to growing up alongside two siblings with disabilities, learning early that technology can either empower people or frustrate them beyond belief.

Freek shares how Hable began at Eindhoven University of Technology as a student attempt to help his co-founder's blind grandfather communicate independently, and how the project "accidentally" became a company once blind testers and community members began asking for a product they could actually use day-to-day. Together, Donna and Freek dig into why touchscreen gestures can be slow, tiring, and "too public," and how Hable's devices (including Hable One and Hable Easy) prioritize physical buttons, safer phone use (even with the phone kept in a pocket), and simpler learning curves, especially for seniors and people new to screen readers. Freek also highlights real user impact, Hable's approach to staying compatible through ongoing iOS/Android updates, and the company's expansion into more affordable daily-living tools like SpeechLabel and Stack Tiles, all grounded in a philosophy Donna strongly agrees with: listen first, build with the community, and keep things as simple as possible without sacrificing power.

TRANSCRIPT

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Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong career barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled. Humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build, Freek van Welsenis, I hope I got that correct?

Freek van Welsenis: Hi. Yes, Freek van Welsenis.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Welcome to my show. I am very pleased to have you as a guest. Welcome.

Freek van Welsenis: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So let's start with question one. So Freek I'd love to start with your quotation. You've spoken spoken about growing up with siblings affected by disability. What did you see firsthand that made you determined to build something that helps people to participate fully in society?

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So I I grew up with two siblings with disabilities. And both my both my parents work work in healthcare with people with disabilities. So from a very young age, I was surrounded by people with all sorts of disabilities. And one thing that always fascinated me was the, the part that technology can either be like a huge enabler or it can be the most frustrating thing that exists. And like that's that's contrast to something that's just sweet. That stayed with me as I went to high school and later to university, and I just felt like technology could be the most amazing thing if we build it right and if we build the right things. And if we would build it for everyone and that's and that's the thing that kind of led me to this path of, of cable and building assistive technology, because I feel like if you use technology the right way, that is where we can make where we can make a difference instead of making it the worst thing for many people. That's where it comes from.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wonderful. As someone who is blind myself, I am always curious how allies learn to truly Get it. How did having parents who are social workers shape your understanding of independence, dignity and practical support?

Freek van Welsenis: Yes, I think I think being surrounded by my by my siblings and my parents, it taught me a lot. But I think the first thing that it taught me is that I probably well, I probably I don't really get it. So I can learn a lot from people with disabilities, but I can never think that I've any lived experience. Even though I know many people with disabilities, that is, I think the most important thing that I learned throughout my childhood is that no matter the ideas we have about assistive technology, no matter the, the things we have about developing a product or making it better, the one thing I learned is that I don't know what the right way forward is, and I should always do that with people who have the disability that we're designing for. So I think the, the, my honest answer is that I don't get it. And that's, I think the thing to get that I need to make sure that I'm surrounded by people who do and who can really make sure that we're, we're moving forward and that we're always working with a community of people who will be using our products, that they decide on what the next steps are. That's I think, my most important part. And that just means listening a lot, asking people what how to move forward and and working with our customers, our community to make sure we do the right things. That's for me, the the biggest learning I got from from my youth and my my surroundings.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think a lot of people should be listening more carefully to what you've just said, because too many people, I don't know, they just think that, oh, we know what to do. We can tell you what to do. And I'm saying, but I'm the blind person. You're the sighted person. How can you tell me what to do? And how can I tell you what to do? You know.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, exactly. Because I've had so many conversations, especially with people maybe who are a bit more new to this, and they say, well, I can, I can mimic that I'm not I can try, but I'm keeping my eyes close to this product and I'm like, that's that's nowhere near nowhere near an experience of, like, nowhere near a good test to do this. It's really about doing this with people with the disability who are going to test it, who are going to work with it. They should decide on the next steps. That's the most important thing.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, when someone says, well, I can close my eyes and I can tell I said, no, you can't, don't don't even go there.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, please don't go there.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean no you're not you're not really understanding. Yeah, yeah. No cable or cable. How do you pronounce it?

Freek van Welsenis: Habal habal.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Habal Habal grew out of. And I'm going to hope and pray that I pronounce this properly. Indoor Haven University of Technology's innovation space. Okay. Can you take me back to that student environment? And what problems were you trying to solve? And what made you realize that it could become a real company?

Freek van Welsenis: So first of all, sorry for all those Dutch names.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay.

Freek van Welsenis: I know the Netherlands has some impossible words, but. Yeah. No, I.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Think it's cool.

Freek van Welsenis: Okay, great. Yeah. So I studied at at the Eindhoven University, and this is where this is where Hable came on my path. So I met my co-founder, Usman, and Usman had a grandfather who was blind, and he simply said Ayushman came from India, but he studied in the Netherlands. And he said, every time I'm calling back home every time I'm texting to my family at home. They are always picking up the phone, and I'm not able to directly speak with my grandfather or for him to pick up the phone. And he said, But I'm a technical student, I study design, I feel like I should be able to make something, build something so he can do it on his own. And that's where we started as naive students who thought, let's just fix this problem and and see what we can do. And very early on, we realized that the only way to do this, or the only way to work on this, was to surround ourselves by people with blindness in the Netherlands, so we could do a lot of the testing and designing. And as we were doing this those people that we were working with, they told us, well, but I also want to have the device at some time.

Freek van Welsenis: Right. Like, I'm, I'm doing so much work and it's now getting to a place where I'm also just starting to rely on it and use it a lot. So, yeah, can can we get the product from you and then me and you realize, well, that's a good question. We don't actually know. So we kind of accidentally turned into a company. We were just trying to solve this problem, and then we realized, well, we need to go to the next level if we don't want to do it well. And we really, like, need to build a product that people really can rely on. And that's and that's where the real journey started. So we, we just surround ourselves by people to build like make the product better. We raised investments and yeah, we grew into we grew into a company. But it was honestly it was more of an accident that we grew into it than than the idea.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have a quick question for you. Technical question. I just updated the iPhone 16 E, and the table that I bought about two years ago can't seem to pair with my phone. Is it because my my cable is an older version?

Freek van Welsenis: No. It should.

Freek van Welsenis: I actually have the same phone, and it works with my phone. I think it might still be paired to the other phone. Could that be possible? Like that? It's still pairing to the other phone.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hope not, but I'm going to take a closer look at it this weekend because we have a holiday on Monday, so I'll have a bit more time. Yeah.

Freek van Welsenis: Okay, okay. I think that's it. And otherwise just let me know. I have a few ways that I could troubleshoot. It should work.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you were building a table while still in graduate studies. What were the hardest part of being a student and running a fast moving startup at the same time? And what habits helped you survive that season?

Freek van Welsenis: So I think that starting a company as a student, of course, there's the big downside of that. You are also doing your studies. So I was always I always had too little time to do what I wanted to achieve in a week. But there's also, I think, a big benefit in that as a student, you don't need like many funds, so you can fully focus and put everything you have into your startup. And you have a lot of flexibility. I didn't have a family yet, depending on me. I didn't have any like, any very strict rules. So I could just really go all in on just my, my startup and my studies and that that helped a lot. So it although it were like a lot of hours and long weeks, the flexibility helped out. So I think that was actually it was not it's not as difficult as it would seem to combine it to. I think it actually might be more difficult at a, at a later stage to do that. Yes. And in terms of the, in terms of the habits, I think the one thing that really helped me is just that I just enjoyed it a lot. Yeah. The work is the work we do, although it's really challenging. It's so much fun because you get you get to speak with so many different people. I get you get so much appreciation. It's so fun to quickly like to work on a product, make design changes. It's just so I think that whole excitement just helped a lot in in kind of going through that phase and, and growing.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear the excitement in your voice. I really can, and I think it's so great when, you know, there's a difference between someone who enjoys what they're doing, as opposed to someone who is only doing it because they're being told to do it, you know?

Freek van Welsenis: Yes, I think so, too. I think I'm very lucky, to be honest, that I can work on something I enjoy so much. I think it's it's a it's a great thing to have now.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In the early days, people appeared to have been largely like what we call bootstrapped. Okay? Leaning on on prizes and on competitions and incubators. How did you fund development and manufacturing when resources were tight? And what would you do differently now?

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, that is a good question. So I think I think at the start we were we were just very creative with everything we had. So we had we had a lot of like hours that we could put into it as students. And we had a lot of the facilities from the university. So that helped us a lot. When we did early prototyping with 3D printing, with working on electronics, we did our own programming. So that made us really lean as they would say. So we could just lean on our own on our own hours to make big changes. And then we just applied to many pitching competitions, startup competitions to kind of get a little bit of funds into, to grow and to develop the product further. But at some stage, like if I think at least this is my, my, my vision is that at some page, when you're when you know you're going to develop the product and, and a lot of people are going to use it and they're gonna rely on it, I, it has to be of a certain quality. So at some point maybe okay, this is really solving a problem.

Freek van Welsenis: There's really a lot of people who want this. And then we need to get an actual actual funds to do this and to professionally develop this product. And, and I'm very happy we ended up doing that and that we were able to, like, raise the capital for it. Because the reliability is still one of the most important things, I think, with a product like this. So what would what would I, what would I do differently now? I think maybe we should have taken that step a little bit earlier. So we were we I think we took a little too long with designing and getting more and more feedback. And although that's really good, it took us like a long, long time. And if we maybe got in a bit more funds earlier, we could have speed up the whole process. All in all though, for like I was 21 when I started with the company, I think for that age I think it was fine. I think we learned so much in the progress in the process. So I'm not I'm not too harsh on myself in this case.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many years how many years did it take you to, to bring this to fruition or to get results to start with?

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, it depends a bit on how how you count. But like we became a real company in in 2021. But already before that in 2020. Sorry. But already before that we put in like quite a lot of time as a students. I think it took us like four and a half years before we really brought the product to the market. Like before, it was really something that was used by yeah. Around the world. Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Were you ever sort of seeing what is going on here? Am I on the right track, or were you always upbeat?

Freek van Welsenis: Oh, no. Every day I, I think. I think it's healthy to have have some have some crisis once in a while. Oh yeah. In terms of like, right, like you have I think you have to constantly question, like, are we doing the right things? And, and there's periods when you have to say a lot because I mean, in the end so many things go wrong. And it happens less now than, than before, but still just things will go wrong. And, and you also should constantly question, like, are we doing the right things and are we moving forward? Right. I think now that I'm a little bit older and I've done this for a little bit longer, I, I feel like I every time this happens, I now recognize, hey, this is actually good that we're having this, but at the start it would cause quite a bit of panic every time you have like, big things going wrong.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Was it difficult to recruit others to work with you, and do you have a big group with you?

Freek van Welsenis: I think that's one of the things that, like, it's quite easy for us to recruit good people. Because I, I think that most people, especially the people that work with us. They just want to work on things that really make a difference. And for us, I think, yeah, a lot of people see right away that that you're working on something that makes something that makes an impact. So we always get a lot of applications from people who want to work with us. And right now we're with almost eight people in the in the team.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So that's I think I think for us, that's already a big team. Like we grew a lot over the last few years. Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's talk about the core user problem. As a blind smartphone user, I know such touch screens can be powerful, but also slow, frustrating and very public. Okay, what specific barriers did hable you know, One set out to remove voice over and talkback users.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, I think the like the core problem, like when we started to to develop the product, this was really for the grandfather of my co-founder, and he mostly had a problem with typing. And that's like the one thing we started with. And for us, we early on decided to work with Braille for typing because he was a Braille user. And that made the most sense in our case. But as we started testing more and more with people around us so in the Netherlands, like with, with blind users, we realized that the swiping and tapping for a lot of people is very frustrating to do.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yes, it is.

Freek van Welsenis: The more like difficult the gestures gets. Like once you go to the rotor commands or other, it just can get very frustrating. And we, we felt like a lot of people would prefer to use buttons, just physical buttons over using gestures on the screen. So we started to solve the problem for typing, but later on we said okay, but actually the problem about gestures and swiping on the screen is actually as like equally big. So that also meant that our proposition changed completely when we started. It was actually a phone case that we designed. Oh, okay. The able one was going to be part of the phone with, like, buttons on the back into a phone case. But with that design in mind, you would still have to swipe on your phone. And then we realized, hey, but if we make it a separate device and also use it to control VoiceOver and talkback, so the swiping, then there's even an added benefit and that is that your phone can stay safe. Like for people who go outside or who walk in public, your phone can actually stay in your pocket and you just use your able to control it. So we realized that there was a way better design for the for the problems people were having with using the smartphone.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a great idea. I mean, like, you know, you don't want to be taking out your phone and you never know who's looking at your screen.

Freek van Welsenis: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And and we've unfortunately heard, like, really awful stories of people who were outside and someone just snatched their iPhone or just.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Freek van Welsenis: And then. Yeah. You're in. Yeah. I don't I just feel so sorry for for the people that happened to. And then I think with cable, we've never heard someone took out a cable because I don't think people know what it is. No, they wouldn't have a clue.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. They probably start staring at it and saying, what the hell is this?

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want this. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Cable has grown to serve thousands of users across many countries. Okay. What impact measures or sorry, what impact measures matter most to you daily use, independence outcomes, user confidence and what user stories have stayed with you the most?

Freek van Welsenis: The thing we measure. So the thing that we really set the start is most important, is that we compared what people were able to do without the table one versus with. That was our measure, because every person is different. And also the reason for using a table can be completely different. But the goal is that you should be able to do more or be do it faster, or do it without less frustration than without the table one. That was the main goal. So we tried to measure the difference that it made essentially. And from that, like the, the you just hear a lot of amazing stories that that for me is still, I think, I mean, I like data, I like to look at numbers. I have a technical background, but the stories are way more fun in our case. And we have some like amazing story. There's this there's a kit from the from the UK. His name is his name is Brian. He's 14, and he in high school, he wasn't able to participate in the programming class just because it wasn't accessible and he couldn't work with it through the material he had in school. So for him, we designed the package on the table so he could work with programming. And now he's he's almost going to university, and he's, like, the best in class with programming. And I think that's just an amazing story of that. We've been able to contribute to that. I think that's really cool. I have a few stories of people who are not able to use the phone at all before, and now they're able to use their socials, their they message people, they even use like their banking app on their phone. And it said it just makes a massive difference in being connected to others. Yeah, I think those things for me are just put a big smile on my face.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So basically it's it's another way to navigate the phone and navigate it more safely. More easily.

Freek van Welsenis: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Okay.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Cable easy is designed for people who want buttons, not swipes. That sounds like me. Especially for seniors or those new to accessible, accessible tech. What real life needs pushed you to create able easy. And what did you learn by working with rehabilitation and occupational therapy therapy professionals?

Freek van Welsenis: So easy. I I'm really proud of because it is not my idea at all. So easy. Just came from a a question. We work a lot with occupational therapists and professionals around the world. And we got a question from a few different occupational players around the world who said, hey, we really like this one. It's amazing. But for many of our clients that we work with, they don't know any Braille.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So.

Freek van Welsenis: They cannot work with it, but they really would love to use the buttons to control the phone because because swiping is just it's just not working for them. It's too frustrating. It's too annoying to learn. It takes so much time.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, it sounds like me a lot.

Freek van Welsenis: And I mean, I got it. So I, we talked to all of the different people and then actually I went on a training myself. So I said, hey, I really want to get like like understand this. So for two weeks I, I don't know if this is right, but I shadowed an occupational therapist, so I just sat in all the training sessions with her as she was training people to work with voiceover and talkback. And I just noticed that the frustration. And then for some people, they would go in and one week, like after an hour, they would finally be able to, like, swipe through the phone. But then next week they came back and they said, you know, I've been trying every day, but like the double tap, I do it too slow and then I do it too fast. And then my phone is at an angle and and I yeah, we just saw the frustration. So together with the actually the professionals, we built a version of cable that didn't need any braille. They just had one button for one function that allows you to swipe through the phone to hang up the phone call, pick up a phone call to change the volume, like all the basic functions are in there. If you want to type, you use dictation, but it's all just through buttons. And yeah, we built it completely with with the community around us, and now it's being used by a lot of people. So that's I think it's a super cool, super cool thing we did based just on community feedback as something we ourselves would not have thought of.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it is easy, a lot different from table one because I think I have the table one.

Freek van Welsenis: So the table is the same hardware as the table one, and the only difference is the the software. So you just change. We just change the software on there so that instead of using multiple buttons at a time like with Braille, you would use one button at a time. And for the table, ECV also adds tactile stickers in there. So you can add tactile stickers on the buttons to make it easier to remember what they do. For example, there's a there's an arrow for the tickets that swipe forward and swipe backwards. There's a little microphone for the for the dictation. There's a little phone horn for picking up a phone call. A phone call. So that's the only difference. And we sell them as different products because they're used by different groups mostly, but you can always switch. So if you're a table one user and you want to try table easy, or if you're able easier and you want to try the table one that you can just do that. It's completely free. And we do that through the app, through a software update.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I need to be talking to you about table easy because I bought table table one. I think I bought it about maybe two years ago.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I've, you know, I was really impressed with it, but I haven't had time to really you know, experience the potential of table one. But from what you're telling me about table. Easy. Yeah, I think I need to have a chat with you offline.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, we can do that. Of course. I'm happy to walk you through it. Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you have expanded beyond keyboards to daily living tools like speech label, voice labeling and stack tiles. Tac tactile markings. Wow. What made you decide to broaden the product ecosystem? And how do these tools complement table one and table easy in every day life?

Freek van Welsenis: Yes. So the well, let me let me start with the, the the question like why we why we expanded to these products. So yes. First like table one and table easy was our table one was our starting point. And later on table easy and assured like as we're distributing these products, as we're developing them and continuing development, we noticed that we have slowly built up quite a large group of people around us, from our customers to the professionals to our partners, like our distribution partners, and like all sorts of organizations around the world. And as you do this, you get so much feedback, like, I feel like we've learned so much from everyone about frustrations or about things that go really well, or where in the, in the world new things are needed. And from that, the feeling we got most is that there's quite a big need for assistive technology that's a little bit simpler, and it's a little bit more affordable. I think there's many amazing companies working on the more, let's say, high end assistive technology. But there's not that many companies working on more affordable assistive technology.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So so that's the gap we want to fill. That that's where I want to go and focus with. And these two products are the first two in that in that line, we, we invested a lot in building these products and getting into the market speech labels. The first one this is a it's a labeling system. So there are a combination of stickers and buttons that you can attach to anything around you. You scan this with our speech label app and then you can add a label to it. So you can add either a voice label with your voice, or you can add a text to it. And next time you scan that same label, the voice pops out or the text pops out. And you can, for example, use this to label your clothing. It can be there to label things like your containers with leftover food from the day, to label what it is or when you made it. And this labeling system, then we build it in such a way that it's, we think, really affordable. So the app is completely free. You just buy labels if you need them. And labels, like, for example, the, the, the stickers we have, you have 100 labels for just I think it's like $21. And you can reuse them as many times as you like. So that's one of the first, the first things we built and now we just launched Stack Tiles. We only launched that a few weeks ago. These are really high quality tactile stickers. It's yeah, it's it's something you have to, like kind of feel, but it's a, a 3D printed tactile sticker. It's I think the highest quality tactile sticker that exists. We have it in different icon shapes. We have ones with Braille and without braille. And all of this, we're gonna launch this March in the, in the in Canada and the United States. And I'm just really excited for it because I really feel like it's our next phase of able. And bringing this to the world.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess you'll be competing with Penfriend, won't you?

Freek van Welsenis: Yes, yes, we certainly will be competing with them. Yes.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Look out! Hey!

Freek van Welsenis: Yeah.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who may not be fluent in Braille, what is the realistic learning curve a curve with table one. And how do you support users who are learning Braille? Switching braille codes or choosing between contracted and uncontracted Braille.

Freek van Welsenis: So the when it comes to Braille on the table one of course, the easiest thing, if you already know Braille, it's very intuitive. So you can get started relatively quickly once you know what each button is. The brailling goes quite fast if you're completely new to Braille. There's, of course, a learning curve. It's good to understand that using the able one is just typing. So just inputs for Braille. So it is not that you are learning reading in Braille when you're working with table one. I think that's a good thing to mention. Which on one side has the downside that you're not necessarily right away learning to read Braille. At the other hand, it is a lot faster than learning to read Braille. Because reading takes a lot more practice than typing. So if you're completely new to using to using braille it depends per person, but it goes faster than it would to read Braille. And it it's really hard to give a one like one answer to this because it completely differs per person how much time you put into this. But I've seen someone who's really fast, and it would really take only a few days. And there's also people who take take longer, and it can be a few few weeks to months. But that really depends per person. There is a lot of information we have out there for people who have never used before. We have YouTube series I think it's seven episodes. That's of course, completely audio driven. On how to use it if you're not a real user. We have online classes for this and we always offer a support of at least 30 minutes of a call with one of our trainers. So we have a lot of materials around it. If you're if you're if you're new to them.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is the braille, is the Hubble easy? Is it like, would you call it an improvement over the Hubble one or table one? Sorry.

Freek van Welsenis: No, I would say it's just a different like a different reason for using it. So the like table is, is just a it's a more simple product. So it's more for people who really struggle with the gestures and who don't necessarily want to type fast in Braille. So just if you're more new to using screen readers or if you're more frustrated with how to use them, table is like the simplest way to do this. And the table one specifically for for people who also want to type in braille and move quickly through their phone, I would say

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Now my clock is starting to wind down, but I have this question for you. After compatibility is a moving target because iOS and Android change so often. Okay. How do you keep cable devices working smoothly through operating system updates? And what does your accessibility testing process look like before and after updates ship?

Freek van Welsenis: Yes. So this is one of the, I would say, unique selling points of the one compared to other products to other braille keyboards. And we the software on this one is completely built from scratch by us, and it's recognized by the phone as a Bluetooth keyboard and not as a Braille keyboard. And that's a seems like a tiny difference. It's a very big difference. But the first big difference is that it's way more expensive to write all the software. But the reason we did that is because it will always stay compatible as long as a Bluetooth keyboard stays compatible. And you can imagine that Bluetooth keyboards have to stay compatible. Yes, with every software update, yes they do. So that is a big a big reason for us why? It's it's like really easy for us to keep it compatible. Because if it wouldn't be compatible, then nothing is compatible. Let's say. And we have a, we have a special enable app that is there to update the software whenever we need to add updates. So the updating of the one is also relatively easy. If it's connected to your phone, you can update it. So this just makes it very smooth to do the whole building process. And when it comes to testing we, we have a few steps in our testing process. So there is internal testing that we do with the team. In our team are also a few people who are blind themselves who are able one users. So they do do the tests in the team. Then when we are happy and we push the updates, of course we test again. And then we also have a select group of customers of us who are very active who do the first testing of the, of the beta software and only after they like it, we then push the push the update out. So there's quite a few steps in making sure everything works as smoothly as it should.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So I have one final question for you because the clock is saying, you know, simplicity seems central to your philosophy. You've spoken about people using a small percentage of features most of the time. How did that shape the core commands you choose to prioritize first and what features Did you intentionally not build? Now, don't give away your trade secrets. But just.

Freek van Welsenis: Tell me. Yeah, I really like this question. Because I think simplicity is something most people strive for. But it's so I learned so hard to achieve. But what I always what I try to tell my team when we're working on new product is that when we build something we should like, imagine making a building and everyone that comes there needs to get upstairs, but there's not one way to get upstairs. We want to develop multiple ways to get upstairs so it's accessible to more people. So there should be a way with stairs. There should be a ramp. There should be an elevator. Maybe there should be a whole different structure to get you upstairs. And that's we then try to put into a product and a good example maybe is something I don't think many people know this, but on the table one, many of the commands work, even if you do it wrong. So for example, the the double tap. So the the the double tap for example is a is a command you use all the time. So it's a double tap this on the table. One is press button seven and eight together. So the spacebar and the backspace.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Freek van Welsenis: However if you hold those buttons. So if you don't press them shortly which is the command, but if you hold them it also still does this. And if you hold one of them first and only later the other. So if you're a little bit, let's say not instantly, it doesn't matter. We have like a timer so that it still works. So it kind of predicts when you want to do what. And then if you make a small error, we correct it for you so that it still works. And that means that for us, it's quite hard to like. It makes it very complex to develop. But for a user, everything seems way more simple. Now there is a example I can give. There's a lot of examples I cannot give. But this is what we try to build into every every single one of our products.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Freek, it has been a pleasure having you and I've learned so much about your product. Real pleasure to hear someone talking about, you know, understanding what is necessary, going out there and saying, you know, I need to learn, not, you know, the regular person who says, I know what to do. No, you don't, and I don't. So I want to thank you for for coming on to my podcast today.

Freek van Welsenis: Yes, of course, that's it. And thank you so much for having me, Donna. I really enjoyed it today.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's been my pleasure. You take care and we'll talk to you soon.

Freek van Welsenis: Thank you.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now. Yeah. Bye bye.

Freek van Welsenis: Bye.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.

Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.