🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #75: Interview with Richard Marion, Accessibility Professional | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-12-2026/

In this thought-provoking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime mentor and friend Richard Marion ("Rich") for a wide-ranging conversation about disability advocacy, inclusive transit, and what real accessibility looks like in daily life. Richard shares how his work has evolved over roughly 35 years, spanning behind-the-scenes advocacy, peer support around access technology (especially mobile devices), and a deep focus on public transit accessibility through multiple roles with TransLink, including years on its Access Transit Committee. He also reflects on how identifying as Métis and as a member of the LGBTQ+ community has shaped his equity work and broadened how he brings disability issues into other communities, while continuing to center lived experience and practical solutions.

Donna and Richard dive into specific, street-level changes that make systems usable, most notably TransLink's system-wide rollout of Braille and tactile bus-stop signage (which Richard helped technically advise, down to ensuring Unified English Braille conventions and fixing real-world dot/spacing issues as materials changed). They explore common mistakes agencies make, consulting too late, treating "accessibility" as wheelchair-only, and overlooking the needs of Deaf riders, neurodivergent riders, and people with sensory disabilities, alongside the "make-or-break" features for blind travelers (tactile cues, clear faregate tap points, reliable audio/wayfinding, and human assistance when needed). Richard also unpacks the promise and limits of high-tech tools (GPS shines; camera-based wayfinding often struggles outdoors; smart glasses and services like Be My Eyes can be powerful but aren't always seamless), arguing that low-tech, always-there design must remain the foundation, especially as cities introduce complex street redesigns like floating/island bus stops near bike lanes. The episode closes with Richard's "what's next" (more accessible arts and travel), a nod to his leadership history in the blindness community, and a direct message to younger advocates: social media helps, but lasting change still comes from organized, in-person community advocacy and advisory work.

TRANSCRIPT

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Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just recited once. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to Turin, equal access into federal law, and most recently on June 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or in a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guests. A changemaker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Richard Marion, aka Rich. It is my pleasure and my privilege to welcome you to my podcast. Welcome.

Richard Marion: Thank you Donna, it's great to be here.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just want to let listeners know that Richard has played an enormous part in my advocacy life, from when I met him in 2010 and to now. Richard continues to be my mentor, my advisor, my very good friend, and I want to thank you, Richard, for having personally guided me through a lot of lumps and bumps. But now we want to hear about you. So, Richard, for listeners meeting you for the first time, how do you usually describe who you are and the work that you do, especially at the intersection of transit technology and disability advocacy?

Richard Marion: I think it depends on the audience. So like I generally, I generally say I've been a long time advocate for in the disability community. I work on a number of issues. And and that I have been done, done a lot of work behind the scenes on many, many different projects. Some would say I've probably been the the Jack or Jane of all trades and master of none, but because I've done a lot of different things over the years. But more recently I've, I've worked on like the, the intersection of, as you mentioned, transit and technology and and and getting around. So I've been and, and and so I've mainly been focusing on public transit accessibility and my role in, in advisory role and a staffing role for the for three, over three years at TransLink over the last six years and and then also on technology, making websites more accessible and helping people learn more doing a lot of peer tutoring, helping people learn more about their their access technology, specifically mobile devices these days, it seems. And and so I would say that I've my, my work in the community has been has been multifaceted and and that that I it it it it has resulted in in my contribution to a number of achievements in the community, like my contribution might be, might not be large on its own, but it's contributed to the overall sort of increase in accessibility. Things have definitely changed over the 35 year or 40 years that I've been involved in advocacy.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 40 years. That's a very long time.

Richard Marion: 35, actually. Yeah. 35 ish. Yeah, yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Now, as a metis person and a member of the I have to pronounce this properly here, the l b g forgive me here.

Richard Marion: To LGBTQ.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Plus community. Oh my goodness, it.

Richard Marion: Doesn't it doesn't roll off the tongue that easily, so like. Yeah. Anyways, finish your question. Sorry about.

Richard Marion: That.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay. How have your identities informed your approach to accessibility, inclusion and community leadership?

Richard Marion: So my identity identifying as Metis and and being part of the LGBTQ plus community has been more recent in my life. I, I actually only came out it's going to be. 17 years ago this year. So it's it's really, really less the than half of my life. Really. And then my Métis identification. I only was granted citizenship in 2019. So but it's been it's been part of my life, obviously, since I was very young, like I remember doing things with my grandparents and when I was 9 or 10 years old, not thinking anything about the significance of it until I started going through family history and registering as a citizen of British Columbia. So I guess the short answer to your question is that it's what it's done is I've been I've been able to sort of bring disability issues forward into indigenous communities and specifically the Métis community. And and then also because my primary I still say my primary ID is a person with disability and specifically someone that's blind as well, too. And and then it's it's allowed me to Learn more about the culture of being Métis and then also how that impacts the people that are part of the LGBTQIA+ community. So I've done some of that other work. Equity work more about doing the equity work itself, like improving the the standing of the of the of the LGBTQ plus community within the Métis Nation of British Columbia and then also representing in indigenous people on accessibility communities committees, specifically the Richmond Accessibility Committee. So but generally with especially in urban environments, accessibility issues are pretty are pretty much the same. And we I tend to mainly draw on what the indigenous communities would call colonial colonial solutions and still have to learn more about what would what would be more appropriate in in indigenous communities.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are very much multifaceted and a multitasker. And I have, you know, it's very, very impressive. Richard, I, I didn't even know that you were a T or part Metis until 2019. You hid that from me. All right. So you've worked with TransLink in multiple contract periods over several years. What keeps pulling you back to transit accessibility work and what kind of progress have you seen over time?

Richard Marion: I think the thing that pulls me back and not just not not just as a staff member, but as an advisory committee member, I've been on the TransLink Access Transit Committee off off and on since it started in 2008. But I think what pulls me back to it is, is the is is making it easier and more comfortable for people disabilities to utilize the public transit system. And a more accessible, inclusive public transit system just makes a better community overall as well. So improving accessibility on buses, not just for people using mobility devices, but also making it more schedules easier to understand, providing better wayfinding information along the way, providing accessible sign accessible destination information for people who are blind. That's going to make it better for everybody. And I think you improve the public transit system. You just increase the opportunities for people with disabilities in the community. Like it makes the big difference from having accessible transit makes a big difference from someone saying potentially, especially in a large city between getting a job and not or and not being able to take it because they can't get there.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very true.

Richard Marion: Yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Can you walk me through the braille and tactile bus stop signage initiative. What the goal was, what your role was as a technical advisor and what? That kind of system wide change materials to blind writers. Writers. I'm sorry.

Richard Marion: I think it's huge. So the to summarize, the the bus stop accessibility project was so we transit was the first transit agency in North America to do a system wide rollout of, of accessible signage for, for people that are blind or partially sighted. And it the signage involves Braille and large tactile raised print as well too. So it's it's huge. And so what it does do is it gives people options for looking at least knowing what buses stop at a stop, or that they are located at a bus stop as well without using technology as well to just it just provides the same getting closer to pride in the same range of options as the sighted public has for when they're out on the street. So the work that I did on it was when when we were at the early implementation stages, working with the signage contractor and the project manager to make sure that we were formatting the braille correctly and using the right configuration, or for size of dots on the signage as well. So it was because the the, the, the terms of the project indicated that we had to do the signage in unified English Braille. And so I just made I worked with the signage contractors to make sure that they were following the conventions of UEB.

Richard Marion: I consulted with other experts in the field that, frankly, a lot of ways know more about UEB than I do. But but I was the on site person that actually looked at signs, samples and said, yeah, this will work. And no, this won't work. And and, and then we and then ultimately landed on something that we rolled out over in, out in the city. We did have to partway through when we started doing the implementation because we had we didn't realize when we changed the sign, the the actual material that the signs were being printed on that the, the style of Braille dots changed slightly in the manufacturing process. And, and it really wasn't until a field review, until other people that were looking at the signs there saying, well, the Braille is a little harder to read. So we had to do a bit of a pivot and space the dots further apart because the samples we looked at initially were, were, were had a more pointed dot. And for those that read Braille, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

Richard Marion: Like, yeah.

Richard Marion: And and and what was happening is when we changed the, the actual material, the braille dots became more rounded. So we the, the the the the standard for the closeness of dots for indoor signage that we were using on the outdoor signage didn't really work. And so we had to space a more further, a little further apart. So for those that are familiar with it, the spacing is a little more closer to what you see with Braille and print on paper now.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess Braille has changed immensely like the format of Braille over the years, right?

Richard Marion: Yeah. It has. Like when I first learned Braille, we were dealing with the Nemeth Code for mathematics and science notation and grade, and then and then North American Braille or US Braille, which is in grade one and two. Now it's just now it's just universal English Braille contracted uncontracted. And the mathematical braille code is all part of it as well, too. So it's it's totally different. The only the only part that's that's still not part of the actual literary code or the or the or the unified code is computer Braille is still its own thing. And Braille music notation is still its own thing as well too.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh thank goodness.

Richard Marion: Yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: From your experience, what are the most common mistakes that transit organizations make when designing accessibility features and what should they be doing differently from day one?

Richard Marion: I think from day one, they have to involve people with disabilities right from the beginning is close to the beginning as possible. Like, you know, because it's nothing about us without us. And and so the common mistake they make is they, they they they and it's getting better, but they'll, they'll, they'll kind of go through the exercise of checking the boxes, and then all of a sudden they realize, oh, we forgot to consult with people with disabilities all the time. Sometimes by the time they do it, they're already at the 80 to 90% designed like a design stage. And it's too late for a lot of a lot of the changes.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Richard Marion: Sometimes it's there are times when it's too early in the process, too, because because if you're way too early in the process, the information you might be receiving as an advocate is really meant for people that really have the knowledge and technical skill to actually advise architects and engineers in their language. And so in that case, you are then you're looking for a more specific skill set of people with disabilities that actually have expertise in those areas. And they do exist, especially nowadays with, with so much more focus on involving people with disabilities in, in public transit decisions. It's getting it's getting better that we all that we, that we can kind of speak their language more so than we used to. Then then the other most common mistake is they, they're still I think it's and it's and again, it's getting better is still assuming accessibility means accessibility for people using wheelchairs and forgetting about other mobility devices or other disabilities, people with people that have sensory disabilities, like the the deaf community still has a still has a long way to go in a lot of cases as well, too. They don't get the same level of information on a bus as, say, I do, for example, because the they might have a visual side, but they wouldn't know when an emergency is happening because there's no there's nothing on that side to indicate why.

Richard Marion: What's why the why this train has stopped, for example, or why the bus drivers stopped in the middle of the road? Because there's nothing to sort of system unless someone unless someone knows sign language and they could tell them, tell a person. Look, we got to we got to go because the bus is being evacuated, for example. Yeah, it's a bit different in that sense. And then people would people with for lack of a better term, hidden disabilities and people that have that are neurodivergent the transit agencies don't are just starting to grasp some of the accessibility challenges, like, you know, sensory, sensory, reduced spaces in, in transit stations and things like that. And and, and and they still transit agencies still have to do a lot, I think do a lot of staff training on, sensitivity and how to de-escalate situations because, you know, people that are neurodivergent sometimes what we might not, might react, might have a minor reaction to they could have a major reaction. And the staff have to have the skill to de-escalate something that could turn into a major conflict point.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true. Yeah. I am also blind, so I have to ask, what are the real make or break features that determines whether a transit system feels navigable and safe for someone who uses a cane or a guide dog?

Richard Marion: So the, the things that for me, that would, would, would be like obviously like the, the the other part of our accessible signage product is tactile walking surface Indicators at the ground. On the ground where the bus stop poles are. So then you get you get a sense of, okay, I'm approaching a bus stop pole because there's, there's there's tactile. T.w. on the ground near the pole. In transit stations, especially big transit stations directional tiles, like like, like wayfinding tiles. So you can follow a path, maybe from the entrance to stairs or an elevator or to the faregates accessible accessible gates in the sense that gates that clearly you can clearly tell where you need to tap a payment card, because every transit system is going to a smart card and every every subway, slash LRT or light metro system are going to faregate systems. And so you need to know, okay, you need to have a good idea instead of sort of waving your hands around where exactly you would tap your card. So. And to know when the gates opened as well to staff to assist you like we like. I don't know about any other transit system that does this very that extensively in Canada. I know it does happen, but TransLink has you can call for VIP assistance on the Skytrain.

Richard Marion: And they'll assist you to, to to the, to a train at your departure station and then from the train at your arrival station, and you just have to give them ten minutes warning. So like if, like when I've used it, I've, I've, if I, if I'm going to a station I'm not familiar with, I just call them when I'm getting on the train at the station I am familiar with. And then there's always someone there to meet me. And then and then they, they, they can offer whatever level of assistance I'm looking for. And a lot of cases, I have a dog, so it's just someone to follow through the station station out to the entrance and. But. Yeah, that's and then just accessible, like accessible information, like, in the sense of schedules and being able to sort of call in and get get trip planning info as well too. And as well. And then the other part, the elephant in the room is making sure that and I'm sure, I'm sure listeners to your podcast will know exactly making sure that bus that they're not using floating bus stops or what? Or what they call island platform bus stops and and discouraging, discouraging the installation of bus routes along separated bike lanes. For example.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: One of the floating bus stop.

Richard Marion: A floating bus stop is it's not it's it's not actually floating in the water.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Richard Marion: There are sometimes in Vancouver, people might think they're floating in the water when it's raining, but so what it is, is, is, is is the the bus stop itself. So the shelter and the bus pool are out in the street beside. So you if you're walking down a pedestrian sidewalk, you would come to a designated crossing point, and you would actually cross a separated bike lane out into the street where onto another island. So now they're changing the term. They're starting to call them island platform bus stops, because that that's more representative of what what it what it actually is, I guess. And so and then you, you you the bus stop is out in this lane between the bike lane and the traffic. So a similar it's kind of similar to streetcar platforms in Toronto or, or LRT platforms that are out in the middle of the street. It's like that. But in those cases, the lane you're crossing a lot of times is an actual traffic lane with vehicles which are which are easier to hear approaching, whereas bikes aren't. So the, the bus stops beside floating beside bike lanes has been a has been a major accessibility challenge for for people who are blind because we can't hear the bikes approaching and we can't definitely can't see them. And so if there's no if there's no safety measures to slow the bikes down, or to make sure to ensure that we know that we're actually traversing the bike lane before we get to the bus stop. It can cause it could potentially cause some major issues for, for people with disabilities or specifically in this case, people who are notification for.

Richard Marion: Yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've also evaluated technology based wayfinding tools from your own perspective. Where do smartphone based systems genuinely shine and where do they fall short for real world independence?

Richard Marion: I think they generally shine like if you're using GPS mapping that like if you're using Like what? Like what's the new Google Maps Explorer now? Something. But if you're using like, like the equivalent to Google Maps or an accessible version of any mapping thing for GPS wayfinding. They're great. And where it the other wayfinding methods like using products that where you have to point your camera at like at some sort of some sort of code out on a pole, for example, or they still fall short there. In my opinion. Because it, it does require you to have good knowledge of your phone and you have to keep your phone out as well, too. They work. I think those systems work best in indoor environments as well. To when transit did a study of of a wayfinding product. And I'm not sure if we're allowed to name names, product names here, but it was well, they're they published a report, so they, they did a we research project with Navy lens and the with in the outdoor environments where they tried it, they there was a lot of a lot of issues, like with the with with people's phone cameras not picking up the right sign to guide them to it. And then also depending on the lighting conditions, like if there was a lot of direct sunlight, the the phone cameras couldn't actually read the actual lens code. So code. So products like Navy Lens and good maps Explorer like things like that where they're, where they're using the camera to find codes that sort of point you in the right direction.

Richard Marion: They probably work best indoors. And I think the, the transit systems that have done more experimenting, experimenting with indoor environments have had better luck than than we did here when we did the six month project here. Here. So it I think that's where the that those types of technology are going to shine. The other technical piece that's that really has been a game changer are the smart glasses. Because now you can you can now you can put something on your head. You don't have to carry your phone around. And you can ask. Ask them for information. And they're getting better. There they are. They literally daily I think they're getting better at determining things like if you ask it, what's in front of me? If you're standing in front of a sign, they'll tell you what it is. And a lot of times be able to read you what's on that sign as well, too. It's it's as well. So that's where that technology is going to, is going to help, but it's technology. And so I still in my advocacy role still look, think low tech solutions have to be part of the mix as well too, because there's still a large population of people who are blind that that may not even own the appropriate smartphones to to run all this stuff, because it does require the almost the most modern phones to do it.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is it difficult to learn how to use the meta glasses?

Richard Marion: No, not really, not from my opinion. It was you it there's there's there's lots of information online. There's some YouTube videos from from various accessibility experts on how to get started with it as well. And even when you put them on, it gives you a good idea of there's a, there's a, there's a help guide. You can you can read and it gives you sort of it gives you suggestions of what questions you can ask them and as well and, and what answers you can expect as well. In the accessibility settings in the meta glasses. Now you can change, you can tell it that you're blind. Tell them you're blind and you want and you want more detailed descriptions. You can you can activate the the BMI service on them. And so and so you can just say, basically say, hey, meta, be my eyes. And also you're connected with a live agent like IRA has a connection to meta as well too, but it's a bit more complicated and does require a bit more skill because they their connection has to be linked through WhatsApp and

Richard Marion: And.

Richard Marion: So it it's a bit, for lack of a better term. It seems to be the term I use. It's a bit clunky because it does require a couple extra steps to do it, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Like the last time I had to use that particular navigation aid when I was looking for the passport office at, of all places I and I couldn't make the connection with IRA, so I ended up basically doing the doing the call with my phone camera and waving my phone in front of me while I was walking down the street looking for the right building.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Must have been a bit hairy for you

Richard Marion: Yes and no, but I've I've I've done, I've done the virtual assistants work that way before. And so for those that don't know, be my eyes and IRA are actually live people like there. So there are people sitting in front of a computer or whatever actually viewing the live feed from your phone's camera.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is starting to wind down. But I have this question for you. How do you strike the right balance between high tech accessibility solutions and low tech, always there solutions? Okay, like tactile cues, Braille and strong audio announcements.

Richard Marion: I still think the balance should lean in favor of low as because I kind of touched on that a bit earlier. I think the balance should always lean in favor of low tech solutions, because everybody can use some form of low tech solution, because high tech still does involve you having some sort of personal device. And, and and if you're in a situation where you don't have your personal device, a device, at least the low tech solutions are there for you as well. And a lot of low tech solutions are can be can are part of are are are being made part of the the the physical design standards that are coming out with various accessibility acts and updates to building codes and things as well too. So it's hope. Hopefully they'll all be there and and, and as we develop, develop more accessible wayfinding with tactile with wayfinding tiles and, and other other solutions like your phone is not going to tell you, for example, that you're, that you've strayed from the sidewalk.

Richard Marion: Side.

Richard Marion: The bike path side of a, of a of a shared path. But tactile tiles will tell you that, like, even if you're not using a cane, you know, if you just step on it with your shoe, you go, oh, I didn't realize I'd strayed over into the. I'm straying over into the bike lane, for example, because in shared paths, the bike lane and the sidewalk are level with each other. So it's it's so that your phone isn't going to tell you that.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I take it you use a combination of both low tech and high tech? Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You do? Yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you've got a guide dog, Baja.

Richard Marion: I've got a guide dog and. Yeah, Baja is is is my trusty companion. And but again, it's the same, even though I have a guide dog, if I dogs grab with, if they're not going to be able to tell that they're, that they're walking on the bike lane side of the path because they're trained to go either on the left hand side or right hand side or something. So you have to if you're if you're on a shared path, they may be you may be walking down the bike lane and not know it until you, until you, until you've crossed like until until someone on a bike approaches you from behind. So you still need you still need some physical adaptation.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So she's just part of the overall suite of.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Of technology that. Yeah.

Richard Marion: And also like obviously obviously the their role is to make sure you're safe and that and preventing you from you know crossing streets when you're not supposed to or falling down stairs and things like that.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So and you've had many guide dogs. I've met a few of them.

Richard Marion: Yeah, yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I know you've spoken publicly about complex design issues like modern bus stop layouts. What accessibility concerns, concerns do you see emerging as cities redesign streets, stops and transit exchanges?

Richard Marion: So I think the thing that's that's because because the we're getting into areas of different types of mobility, like for, for the general public. So like the e-scooters, e-bikes and and so and we're, we're starting to get a lot more multi-use environments. So I think the thing that the cities have to keep in mind is they have to really work with all everyone and come up with solutions that, that actually in maintain accessibility. So. So some of the big issues that I touched on earlier, the the separated bike lanes and the floating platform bus stops is a major accessibility issue. And every and if we don't sort of if we actually don't come to grips with that now and develop some sort of national guidance or standard on it, every single city is going to do something slightly different. And and, and every city is going to have a different view of the advice they're getting from their community of people with disabilities as well to on the issue as well. And we're seeing that in British Columbia. Victoria is doing one thing Cologne is doing something else. Vancouver might be doing something and even within the same city, like they're doing different things as, as they sort of look at. So that's the kind of thing like the trying to figure out the best way for everyone to coexist because the cities are, are, are trying to focus less on the, the personal vehicle like the car cars and and so by doing that they they our streets are changing. And I would like to think it's for the better because it's going to be better for the environment, but it creates more accessibility. It potentially could create a whole new set of accessibility challenges for people with disabilities. Like there are people that say they won't leave their home now because the bus stop they have to go to is beside a separated bike lane. And yet that in the past that wasn't nobody even thought about separated bike lanes and bus stops co-existing.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well you've worked in so many different landscapes, so many different environments. And as the clock winds down I want to ask you this question. What's next for my good friend Richard Marion, where are you going next. What are you thinking. What are you hoping.

Richard Marion: I don't know, I it's funny when, when I, when I first started doing advocacy, when I was a student at 21 years old, I said, I'm never going to be doing this for the rest of my life. That was never my goal is I just wanted to do something when I was a university student and and and then and then all of a sudden, like I said, 35 years later, I'm still a big part of my life. I think for me, what's next is, is I want to continue I want to continue working on accessibility issues. I've also been I think I might want to might move towards sort of accessible recreational activities like I do, I do I am a board member of the vocal I Descriptive Arts Society. So accessible theater and community events is is is becoming a major passion of mine as well. And so I think that's, that's I want to continue that work. And so as I sort of wind down any work I've been doing on transit or web accessibility I think that's I would want to spend my volunteer time doing that. And also, my husband and I want to do more of our traveling as well too. So like, I like have to kind of we kind of were. We were both. We're not I won't say we're old, but we're we're kind of getting into that age where we think we're like, well, we thought we maybe we should cross off a few of our sort of things that we really want to do that, that, that before we can't do them anymore. So like so I think over the next 5 to 10 years, I definitely will do a little less sort of hardcore disability advocacy work and do something, do some, some work that's a little more I wouldn't say enjoyable, but it's just different for me. And then and, and then so that's, that's why I kind of dabble with, like I said, accessible theater and community events.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We will not I mean, we did not touch on the fact that and I think you were the youngest president of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians.

Richard Marion: I believe so, yeah. I was I.

Richard Marion: Was.

Richard Marion: 20. Nine when 28. 29 when I got elected. Did, so did it for one year. If I knew now what I knew. If I knew then what I know now. I may, may have still done it, but would have definitely done a lot of different things. But that's a whole other podcast on the early years of the A, B, C or the back. Then it was the National Federation of Blind Advocates for equality.

Richard Marion: So yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's where we met when I was vice president of the ABC and then became president. And you walk the walk with me.

Richard Marion: Yeah.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this deserves another podcast to talk about your experiences in that field and what you experienced, what what you enjoyed, what you did not quite enjoy, what you'd like to see improved. So in closing, are there any other comments you would like to make or anything else you'd like to tell our listeners?

Richard Marion: What I'd like to tell you? Listen, especially your younger listeners, like, I know, I know today we we all think that all answers are in social media, but there is still a need for for group advocacy. And, you know. So if you are troubled with an issue like social media is great because sometimes it. Sometimes it results in the change you're expecting. But finding like minded individuals and community and getting involved in your community really will help things overall. And because social media itself is it is nice and it's a great it's a great tool, but it should only be one tool in the toolbox. And and and also, I don't want to sound like one of those old people, but like, the issues people are dealing with today are a lot like, they're I was just going to say simpler, but they're different. But but when, when we were younger, like, we, we didn't have the same sort of tools that that could go that could reach the masses. So that's like social media is great as a tool, but you know, but still getting together with like minded individuals and being part of a group and being on local advisory committees is really is really important, is a really important part of that, because that's where real change that's in my, my opinion, the real changes happen that affect you, your personal life on a day to day basis.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Richard Marion aka Rich. Thank you so much for being a part of our podcast. I want to thank you and I look forward to continuing to work with you.

Richard Marion: Great.

Richard Marion: Thank you very much. It's been enjoyed. Enjoyed being a guest.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care now.

Richard Marion: You too.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye.

Richard Marion: Bye.

Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.

Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.