In this episode, Thobani Khumalo speaks with Prof. Fiona Tregenna (University of Johannesburg; SARChI in Industrial Development) about the evolution and significance of APORDE—the African Programme on Rethinking Development Economics. Prof. Tregenna reflects on two decades of the programme, why exposure to plural and heterodox perspectives matters, and how APORDE and its sister course IPPM (Industrial Policy for Policymakers) build lasting professional networks across the continent.

The conversation then turns to why industrial development and industrial policy remain central to Africa’s growth—what went wrong with premature de-industrialisation, how to rebuild capabilities, and why state capacity is best developed through “learning by doing.” From trade and green transition to technological upgrading and regional integration, this episode maps a practical path for policymakers, researchers, and practitioners committed to transformative development.