Rich Kahn talks with Jason Barnard about unmasking ad fraud.

Rich Kahn, Co-Founder and CEO of Anura.io, talks with Jason Barnard about the massive impact of ad fraud and how invalid traffic (IVT) continues to plague the digital advertising ecosystem. They discuss the different layers of fraud, including general invalid traffic (GIVT) and more subtle forms like SIVT, which mimics legitimate user behavior.

Rich explains how traditional detection methods often miss the mark, especially when fraud occurs at the top of the funnel. He emphasizes the importance of early-stage detection to avoid the costly consequences of fraud, which can quickly escalate once the money is already spent.

The conversation concludes with insights on how brands and platforms can take proactive steps to fight fraud — using smarter data analysis, pre-bid detection, and validation tools. Rich Kahn and Jason Barnard stress the need for a more transparent, data-driven approach to ad fraud prevention, ensuring that the future of digital advertising is more secure and reliable for businesses and consumers.

What you’ll learn from Rich Kahn

00:00 Rich Kahn and Jason Barnard

01:57 What Did Jason Barnard Emphasize on the Brand SERP of Rich Kahn?

02:28 Why is Google not presenting Rich Kahn as the Primary Result for His Name According to Jason Barnard?

03:45 What is the Difference Between How Google and AI Assess Your Authority or Fame?

04:26 What is the Total Global Ad Spend per Year?

04:35 How Do People Misunderstand the Scale of Money Being Spent in Certain Industries?

04:54 How Much is Ad Fraud Predicted to Reach by 2028?

05:19 What Types of Platforms Are Included in the $140 Billion Ad Fraud Estimate?

06:09 What Are the Forms of Stealing Involved in Ad Fraud?

06:46 Why Does Ad Fraud Affect Advertisers Even if Traffic Buyers Aren’t Committing it Intentionally?

08:28 What Types of Fraud Exist in Traffic Bought From Platforms Like Google and Facebook?

08:34 Why Does Ad Fraud Still Happen Even When Affiliates Are Only Paid for Actual Sales?

08:48 What Methods Do Fraudsters Use to Fake Transactions and Get Paid as Affiliates?

09:12 Why Do Fraudulent Affiliates Get Away With Scams Before Being Caught?

09:49 How Does Fraudulent Traffic Occur on Platforms Like Google?

10:46 How Do Affiliates Use Google AdSense to Commit Ad Fraud?

11:09 Where Are Search Ads Often Placed to Trick Users Into Clicking Them?

11:31 How Does Fraudulent Traffic Occur on Platforms Like Facebook?

11:39 What Impact Do Fake Facebook Profiles Have On Ad and Engagement Fraud?

12:09 What Does Fraud Mean When It Involves Making Money From Online Traffic?

12:39 Why is it Important to Spot Ad Fraud Early?

13:08 Why is Fraud Much Higher in Programmatic Advertising Compared to Google Search?

13:47 Why is the Fraud Rate So High in Connected TV Ads?

14:23 What is IVT?

14:37 What is GIVT?

14:45 What is SIVT?

15:01 How Can GIVT Be Determined?

15:10 What is Required to Identify SIVT?

16:02 How Can You Spot Ad Fraud Early and Minimize Losses?

16:19 How Can Fraudsters Fake Lead Submissions and Avoid Detection?

17:06 What is the Risk of Violating the TCPA With Fraudulent Lead Generation?

17:48 Why is it Important to Ask if the Person Remembers Filling Out the Form When Calling Leads?

18:18 How Can Businesses Protect Themselves From Fraudulent Traffic Both Immediately and in the Long Term?

18:57 Why Can Some Fraud Detection Solutions Succeed When Tools Like Google CAPTCHA Still Struggle?

21:09 What Challenge is Faced When Balancing Fraud Prevention and Avoiding False Positives in Ads?

21:33 What Does it Mean When 15% of Flagged Fraudulent Traffic is Actually a False Positive?

23:15 Who is Likely to Win the Battle Between AI-Powered Fraud and AI-Driven Fraud Detection?

This episode was recorded live on video May 20th 2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR6KS7h5u0Y

Links to pieces of content relevant to this topic:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e465-ensuring-your-web-content-is-seen-by-real-people/id1190420698?i=1000681851003https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ad-fraud-detection-and-prevention-with-rich-kahn/id1485152587?i=1000682226941https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/battling-digital-marketing-fraud-with-rich-kahn/id1611588646?i=1000682868054Anura.ioRich Kahn

Transcript from Rich Kahn with Jason Barnard on Fastlane Founders And Legacy. Unmasking Ad Fraud

[00:00:00] Rich Kahn: So we're talking about programmatic, which is the number one channel for Digital Marketing. So display ads, TV ads, things like that. We're talking search and social so all the search companies like Google, Yahoo, Bing. We're talking about all this, all the social channels, Facebook, Instagram, X, Twitter.

[00:00:22] Rich Kahn: We even talking about the native brands like Tabula and our brain. So any digital affiliate marketing, all those channels combined. The global spend, from what I can gather, based on doing some research with $639 billion was spent last year. And of that, based on our data that we catch we're seeing that at about $140 billion is stolen every year. 

[00:00:45] Narrator: Fastlane Founders and Legacy with Jason Barnard.

[00:00:48] Narrator: Each week, Jason sits down with successful entrepreneurs, CEOs and executives, and get them to share how they mastered the delicate balance between rapid growth and enduring success in the business world. How can we quickly build a profitable business that stands at test of time and become their legacy?

[00:01:08] Narrator: A legacy we're proud of. Fastlane Founders and Legacy with Jason Barnard. 

[00:01:14] Jason Barnard: Hi everybody and welcome to another Fastlane Founders and Legacy. It's me, Jason Barnard, and a quick hello and we're good to go. Welcome to the show, Rich Kahn. 

[00:01:27] Rich Kahn: That's an interesting introduction. Thanks, Jason. Thanks for having me today.

[00:01:31] Jason Barnard: It's an absolute pleasure. Today we're going to be unmasking ad fraud and it's a billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, a hundred billion dollar problem. Is that correct? 

[00:01:43] Rich Kahn: As of last year, it was $140 billion problem. 

[00:01:46] Jason Barnard: Right. Huge, problem. So we're gonna be digging into why it's happening, where it's happening, and potentially what you can do about it, how it's getting worse, how you can protect yourself.

[00:01:57] Jason Barnard: But before all that, we're going to quickly look at your Brand SERP. It's always my favorite thing to do right at the start of the show. When I search your name, this is what I see. You're up there with a few other people with the same name. And I was disappointed that when I search in online, I don't see that. looks much, much better.

[00:02:15] Jason Barnard: That's your Knowledge Panel, and it's actually quite a good Knowledge Panel with those lovely images at the top, the blue cards, the description on the right hand side, Google's factual understanding about you. And for the audience, this is what we do. We take people from this situation where Google isn't presenting them primarily, it's presenting lots of other people.

[00:02:35] Jason Barnard: You don't look so good and here you are like a superstar. 

[00:02:39] Jason Barnard: And in fact, I can tell you the reason that it's not doing, that it isn't confident enough that you are famous enough. Do you feel it's wrong? 

[00:02:48] Rich Kahn: It's funny, a little story. I'm a storyteller. I like to tell stories. I saw a gentleman, and I'm drawing a blank on his name right now, but he's a guy who sees spirits from the other world. And we're in an audience in Atlantic City of about a thousand of us in the audience. And he comes over in my direction. He is saying he is looking for somebody famous. I don't consider myself famous, at all. And he's consisting and pushing and pushing. And then he says, look, if you walked into and then this is where he got specific.

[00:03:22] Rich Kahn: He said, if you walked into a trade show, would people know who you are? And I'm like, oh, that's me. I go to trade shows for the last 20 plus years. I walk into a trade show, everybody knows who I am. And he goes, well, that's famous. I go, well, I don't consider that famous. I mean, I'm well known in my industry, but outside of my industry, not as much.

[00:03:41] Rich Kahn: So it was kind of, so do I consider myself famous now? 

[00:03:44] Jason Barnard: Right. Okay. Well, and that is an interesting point. When somebody's searching on Google, you need to be considered by Google to be the most famous person with your name. Whereas with AI, with ChatGPT and so on and so forth, they have context.

[00:03:59] Jason Barnard: So being important within your industry, within your niche, when somebody's having a conversation with ChatGPT is actually significantly easier to do because it can niche down, because it has more context when you're talking. So onwards with ad fraud, $140 billion a year, and that's a huge amount. How much is ad spend a year?

[00:04:26] Rich Kahn: Last year ad spend was 639 billion globally. So you're talking about a 22% amount. The thing is people don't understand. I like to watch Shark Tank a lot and people will talk about this new product and they're going to disrupt the $10 billion industry, a $20 billion industry.

[00:04:46] Rich Kahn: So there's a lot of, there's a lot of money being spent and people don't recognize how much $140 billion is. So what's interesting is we're predicting by 2028, it's going to to be over 200 billion, which is more money than Disney and Netflix combined. Just to put it in scale. 

[00:05:06] Jason Barnard: Okay. So our number of 140 billion and ad fraud.

[00:05:11] Jason Barnard: What ad fraud does it actually cover? Because are we talking about Google, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn?