Robert Kegan is a psychologist who teaches, researches, writes, and consults about adult development, adult learning, and professional development. His work explores the possibility and necessity of ongoing psychological transformation in adulthood. He is perhaps most well known as the author of The Evolving Self, In Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life, and An Everyone Culture. 
In this conversation we talk about:
What is a good definition of an 'adult'?
The phasic vision of adult development
The variety of developmental logics in the human mind
A tour of the 5 stages of adult development
What people get wrong about his 5 Stage model of human development
Why you are almost certainly not ‘Stage 5’ if you're under the age of 40
The gap between philosophical understanding and developmental attainments
Why you might take on a Stage 5 philosophical orientation from the Stage 4 developmental level (and what that might look like)
The most important developmental stage transition for the majority of humans
What transcending the limits of the socialized mind means for our planetary culture


The Monastic Academy Awakened Leadership Bootcamp

Robert Kegan - The Five Stages of Adult Development (And Why You Probably Aren't Stage 5)

A podcast based inquiry into the next phase of the human experiment.

Society & Culture

Personal Journals

History

Philosophy

Places & Travel

Daniel shares his feelings and disorientation in the aftermath of a profound experience and Jane opens up about living with a life-threatening health condition. They discuss the intensity and beauty of working with pain and facing endings. They then turn to the value of “being local” and the critical importance of bringing people together in physical space. Jane discusses her work with Imaginisma, an organization that describes itself as “a new kind of incubator for remembering, contacting, and amplifying the aliveness and grace of being human,” and the duo explores “aliveness” as a guiding principle. Themes of rediscovering simple, fundamental qualities of our humanity and rooting growth in the rich context of local relationship and “holy work” are contrasted with modern tendencies toward philosophical abstraction, reductionism, and trauma fixation. Finally, Jane and Daniel muse on the challenges and abnormalities of our era and their sense of hope for their own work and for today’s younger generations.


1:17 Daniel's experience of a profound opening through intimacy with pain
7:49 Jane's experience facing a life threatening condition
14:02 Pain, beauty, and "holy work"
19:56 The value of being local, especially as an antidote to abstraction
28:38 Relationship, love, and the power of bodies in space
33:42 Describing "holy work" and the philosophy of Jane's Imaginisma project
39:25 Searching for life purpose and "being in the house of aliveness"
45:21 How Jane's work straddles the material and the imaginal/etheric
49:31 Rediscovering life's latent magic and fundamental qualities of being human in the digital age
56:41 The orientation of Jane and Daniel's work toward inspiration and action (over philosophical abstraction)
1:01:24 Misconceptions about personal development and issues with pain and trauma fixation
1:08:50 Casual encounters with strangers
1:10:32 The abnormality of our times, the meaning of "normal," and "sewing seeds of ecstasy for the future"
1:14:47 A beautiful future beckoning in spite of a tragic world
1:19:38 Conclusion


Imaginisma
Daniel's Unfolding Coaching Offering

Jane Weintraub - Discovering Your Holy Work

John Churchill joins Daniel to discuss the relationship between Attachment Theory and the process of awakening. Weaving together strands from Buddhist psychology and developmental psychology, John describes the Bodhisattva path and the development of a Planetary Dharma through the lenses of attunement and attachment. Topics covered include the development of the heart, the definition and various dimensions of attunement, and the difficulty of finding trustworthy spiritual teachers and community. John also shares theory and practice perspectives on the development of healthier attachment and offers words of encouragement for community building in difficult times.


0:00 Introduction and background for the talk
2:43 Western and Eastern Psychology and Attachment Theory
5:01  The attachment and attention systems and the sense of self
10:37 Addressing the split between the heart and the mind
16:21 Buddhist perspectives on the healing of the attachment system
21:26 Right relationship, attunement, and the dimensions of the heart
26:42 Developmental psychology and attunement
28:42 Levels of attunement and the significance of intuition
36:46 Collective psychological and structural components of attunement 
40:52 Awakening with and without the heart as a central point of focus
48:09 Discernment on the Buddhist path and a developmental model of the Bodhisattva
52:32 The significance of time in spiritual development
55:50  Finding trustworthy teachers and avenues of practice
1:04:30 Putting the difficulty of finding a reliable spiritual path in perspective
1:07:33 Theoretical perspectives and practical advice for developing healthier attachment 
1:20:23 Summarizing the development of healthy attachment and the Bodhisattva path from the perspective of attachment theory
1:23:37 Closing thoughts: Coming together and taking care of each other

John Churchill - Attunement as World Medicine

Daniel and Jordan Hall discuss Jordan’s recent conversion to Christianity and the evolution of his worldview. How did a tech pioneer and futurist intellectual who would have said his chances of being baptized were “exactly zero” only five years ago become a convert? Daniel and Jordan talk about their respective “paths to humility” and the importance of religious community and traditional wisdom in the modern world.
Topics include the tension between innovation and tradition, Game A and Game B,  the search for deeply connected communities, the importance of grief, the evolution of modern Christianity, cultural attitudes towards Christianity, and the power of committing to Truth.


0-3:34 Jordan’s recent conversion to Christianity
3:35 The evolution of Jordan’s worldview and his relationship to religion since childhood
9:11 The 2008 financial crisis and the birth of “Game B”
16:55 Searching for “Civium” (seeking out a philosophically aligned community) 
23:07 Going to Black Mountain, North Carolina
31:18 Reflections on attending church and turning towards religion
42:06 Getting to humility
47:56 The importance of grief
49:54 “Religion that is not a religion” and the “Two Worlds Mythology”
53:26  Addressing the condemnation of Christianity in modern culture
1:02:57 Jordan’s thoughts on shifts in modern Christianity
1:06:36 The value of religious community and tradition in a neophilic culture
1:12:47 Committing to Truth
1:14:07 Wrap-up




Jordan Hall Converts to Christianity

After a long career using many therapeutic modalities, for more than a decade, Bob Falconer has devoted his practice exclusively to Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy. Bob has completed all levels of IFS training and continues to study with many of the senior IFS trainers. He co-authored the book Many Minds, One Self with IFS founder Richard Schwartz and has helped to train more than a thousand people in IFS. 
For the past several years, Bob has been devoted to completing the extensive research and writing of his new book, The Others Within Us, which deals with “unattached burdens,” “guides” and what has sometimes traditionally been referred to as spirit possession.
In this episode, Daniel and Bob discuss Bob’s personal trauma and the historical fight for the cultural and professional recognition of abuse, trauma and PTSD. They then delve into the history of psychotherapy and its connections to capitalism and colonialism and Bob’s perspectives on Internal Family Systems (IFS). While exploring the major themes of Bob’s book, they discuss the porous nature of mind, differing cultural models of mind, psychosis and spirit possession, Bob’s personal experiences with “the others within us,” the imaginal realm, and how Western psychology might shift from a “mono-mind” perspective to a “porous mind” one in the future.


Timestamps

 03:39 Intro
 05:29 Bob’s Abusive Upbringing and Early Spiritual Experiences
 11:07 How Internal Family Systems Has Helped Bob Become a “Man of Joy”
 13:37 The History and Evolution of Modern Cultural Conceptions of Abuse, Trauma and Mind
 21:03 Competition, Capitalism and Colonialism in Psychotherapy
 23:42 Internal Family Systems and Multiplicity of Mind
  28:43 Bob’s Book and His Perspectives on The Porous Nature of Mind
  31:48 “Something Foreign In My Mind”: The Client Who Changed Bob’s Perspective
  39:09 “The Others Within Us”: The Core Claim of Bob’s Book
  45:36 Generational Trauma and Different Cultural Approaches to “The Others Within Us”
  49:19 How Forces Not Clearly Linked To Our Personal History Might Get Into Us
  52:53 Limitations of the Western Conception of Mind and Differing Cultural Interpretations of “Psychosis”
  57:39 Possible Portals To A More Widespread Recognition of The Porosity of Mind
  1:00:05 Navigating The Imaginal Realm
  1:03:51 How Coaches and Practitioners Can Make Space for Porosity of Mind and The Others Within Us
  1:09:20 Closing





The Others Within Us




Bob Falconer - Internal Family Systems and Spirit Possession

Tasshin – which means “to reach or achieve truth” – describes himself as an “online pilgrim wandering this precious world for the benefit of all beings.” 
In this episode, Daniel talks with Tasshin about some of the lessons he has learned and his unique insights into what it means to “live your vow,” from clarifying one’s sense of unique purpose to effectively coordinating with individuals and groups. While breaking down a statement on “bottlenecks” from Tasshin’s recent article, they outline a powerful framework that connects inner and outer work and service. 
Topics covered include productivity, psychology, ethics, effective coordination, the technological and poetic attunements (as described by Heidegger), the pathology of trying to “solve the world’s problems,” and the duo’s friendship, which dates back to their two-plus years together at the Monastic Academy.


Tasshin's Home on the Internet
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Timestamp
02:15 Daniel and Tasshin’s Personal Connection and Mutual Inspiration
10:29 Overview of Tasshin’s Recent Article and Reading of His “Bottleneck” Statement
16:33 “Finding Your Vow Is The Bottleneck On Productivity”
24:02 Living One’s Vow/Purpose As An Iterative Process
28:23 Addressing Doubts Regarding The Concept of “Vow”or “Unique Purpose”
31:53 “Productivity Is The Bottleneck On Strategy”
44:37 “Strategy Is The Bottleneck On Effective Coordination”
47:57 Different Levels of Harmonization
54:17 Trusting Yourself, Trusting Experience, Trusting Life
58:52 From Solving The World’s Problems to Focusing On Goodness, Truth, Beauty, and Playing One’s Part
1:07:52 Closing

Robert Kegan - The Five Stages of Adult Development (And Why You Probably Aren't Stage 5)

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