some say it's a regression in feminist attitudes, whereas others say it's innovative and cutting edge research. in this episode, i discuss the pros and cons of brain dead patients being used as surrogates. p.s - i don't come to a conclusion whether it's right or wrong (i'll leave that to the ethicists), but put my opinions to shed light on this topic. it's controversial but definitely needed to be said.

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referenced resources:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11705261/Should-brain-dead-women-kept-alive-used-SURROGATES.html

https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/brain-dead-women-surrogates-debate

timestamps: (auto-generated, will have inaccuracies)

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of medic mornings. I'm your host Fiona. And today I'm going to be talking about a topic that I recently fell into while scrolling on Instagram. There's a lot of mixed reviews and if you follow me on Instagram on the mediocre. Are you know that I posted about it on stories and ask for your opinions but a little bit more of that today since we're going to have a beer and more informal discussion into really the pros and cons of whether brain-dead patients should be used as Target. It's definitely very controversial and I was just so interested in that because it seems so dystopian. But also at the same time this is an innovation and a discovery that have affected loads of people's opinions. And I'm just really interested to see how this is going to come up. So I haven't done a solar episode in so long, it's just been interviewing two people recently. So I haven't talked to myself on the microphone in like 3 weeks. So bear with me. If my mind is a bit muddled. But without further Ado, let's get started. Okay. So this was an article which was written by a doctor, I think. And this has been publicized on Daily Mail, you know, Cosmopolitan. The Women's Health Magazine and there are so many opinions on it and I'm just going to read a little excerpt from The Daily Mail. So essentially what this article is about is that brain dead woman should be cut to live. It essentially just means how brain-dead woman should be kept alive year on a ventilator or on other means and that will force their bodies to be able to be used for pregnancy. It's kind of like organ donation. Initially, I thought it was a bit like organ donation, but I've spoke to a few medical students about this and essentially it's a hoe. Gestational. So there's going to be 9 months of a fetus just growing in the pregnant woman belly and there's a whole debate on whether it should be a thing or shouldn't be a thing. So let's just jump right into the reasonings. This is by no means like an exhaustive list, I just wrote the song and let's discuss it. I just want to clarify the difference between brain that and vegetative state. So if I just hate this state is when the brain stem cell functions, you know, there is possibly basic reflexes like opening your eyes or something. There's possible chances of recovery, often times. It leads to like very permanent damage has, but there is no chance of recovery and they have their own signs of Consciousness. So maybe through Reading brain scans or eegee's, it's definitely possible and vegetate. Patience. Forebrain, that is actually permanent. So patients will never never regain Consciousness or breathe on their own without a ventilator. And that's just the difference. The first reason why I was kind of for the idea was that it was theoretically a very viable procedure. If you look from a very close-minded level up from a very surface-level, ignoring all the ethical and political and philosopher philosophical issues. There's definitely a science and evidence-based backup to show that this is possible. You know, like scientific innovation right now is so high and it's definitely able to keep a person on a ventilator for, you know, a long. Of time. If you manage them closely, there's going to be less risk of infection or other things that could potentially Carm de patient even more because, you know, since they're brain-dead they won't be able to feel pain, they won't be able to feel those kinds of emotions and relationships with the fetus growing in their belly. So, fit theoretically is a viable idea. You know, there's science to back it up. And yeah, the second point is that it's quite difficult to fault, Steve consensual issues. So some people were kind of nervous that, you know, the patient wouldn't be able to give consent since they're already brain-dead. So, will it be made for them here? This wouldn't be a possible issue. If the patient themselves agree to the procedure beforehand, I feel like in this scenario specifically where you're talking about, literally growing a unborn baby in your belly, there's a lot more input into So you shouldn't be able to be influenced by her family members or usually lawyers can speak on your behalf if your brain that this shouldn't be possible. I think for this procedure specifically because this is so personal and so intimate, that it's something that you should consider yourself. So, autonomy issues, if the patient gives full informed consent, then that would be another ethical issue that kind of removed because they signed it themselves. They understood what was going to happen to them after they did become brain dead and yeah, it's difficult to fault this if it's written in a clear matter. The third reason why I was for this idea because I used to think that brain that determination could be screwed, you know, I used to think OSHA it like doctors. Are going to see brain death in a different manner if they knew that the patient's body could be used for another purpose, so maybe there's still some brain activity or something and then they could potentially look over that and just to clear the patients brain dead. But I love thee, follower who has a neuroscience PhD talked about how it's quite an objective process. So, let me have a look. So, she was quite lovely. She said, Brenda determination is not that straightforward. Multiple tests are generally required and they need to be unanimous. And the caring doctor said a primary doctor for the patient is not involved in the production or interpretation of any test determining brain. They can request and acknowledge them and take clinical decisions based on them. But have zero direct control over it. So brain, that is determined by. I'm a nice guy and CT scans EEG. Scans year EG determinations, these blood flow and very clinical. And interpretive testing is taking place every time a patient is determined to be brain dead. So I guess that would be a positive sense in that there would be little to no bias interpretation of brain death results. Okay, and the next reason why I was kind of for this idea and was also touched upon on the article is that pregnancy is inherently, very high risk getting pregnant. Women are higher risk for hypertension like high blood pressure also seizures, which is called eclampsia. They're also higher chance of gestational diabetes like developing diabetes during pregnancy. And these are generally not problems for a brain dead patient. Since you know, these things can be regulated at a higher level monitored a higher level and easier to manage, I would say cuz there's no really larger harm towards bring that patient and there's no risk factors involved so you're not going to be thanking. Should I choose between the mother or the child, you know, she Choosing who to, who to save in that sense. However, I will say lots of people were really against this, just because it seemed like, quite a dystopian idea, you know, kind of like, feminism and general. Human rights are just regressing and time kind of like the overturn Roe v Wade. But in a much more, widespread Manor, the first reason that's a lovely followers called Hattie. I think I'm very sorry if I forgot her name, but she, that argue that there are children waiting to be adopted. So, this is not similar to organ donation and that it's saving a life is actually creating a life and creating life when there are children. But 2,000 children currently in the UK, who are waiting to be adopted is kind of very unnecessary in the sentence. That people should rather just adopt a child instead of making another one and contributing to is very muddled up in the ethics part of it, because on a personal level at this is quite the to me because I was never one to actually want children like biological children. I think that there are children whose lives are heavily impacted. They're bouncing around from foster care and adoption centers are generally, like really horrible situations where children and the housing care and care system in place right now is not adequate at all. You know, it's, it's an emotional burden on these children who are waiting for a home and a family, and people who genuinely love them and care for them. So it kind of hits deep in that I was like, oh, that's really take a step back and think about there's children who need a home. So why would you want to make another one using a brain? Dead patient? Who is, it's just, it's just it's quite immoral and it is quiet. And just, I do agree that 2,000 children who are waiting to be adopted, should not be overlooked. And this idea is definitely not applicable to organ donation. The second reason why I was kind of against this idea is because donating, an organ is like a one-time thing. So it's done and dusted with in, usually, twelve hours or more. But this is a whole gestational. Donation. So it's around 9 months. So there's going to be possible complications for the child as well and using brain that patient. Incubator sounds very unethical. It generally sounds very unethical. It's it's quite disturbing actually to think about it. And to quote, the Women's Health Magazine it's a prospect which involved treating the patients that body as a means to an end rather than as an end an insult. So I guess a philosopher or an exorcist would look at it. This way using a dead patient is horrible because in religious communities of all the time, it's when someone dies it's you know, you have to honor them and you have to use memories of them and think of them for good but have a respectful funeral for them and the thought of using a dead family member but people who are close to you. Imagine that being basically human incubators, And it's definitely no laughing matter. But it's very uncomfortable to think about definitely should be thought about a lot more. So in England, there's an app system for organ donation. As far as I know, most people above the age of 18 are assumed to have consented to their organs be harvested for other people when they died. So this would be an opt-in system. I'm assuming if it were to actually take place because this is generally very up in the air. It's it would have to have reached a lot more people to consider before even be coming into law. So the last part of this episode, very short episode actually, but I'm just going to read a few tweets that people wrote about this says someone said, please don't get me wrong. This is a very, very very weird concept to think about an approach. It can be viewed as a mother careless thought about women's bodies being vessels for human gestation and nothing else. I couldn't get that. I do get that actually served throughout like the entire historical. Women have being seen as vessels, you know, they're only sole purpose is to bring a child into this world. They don't have complete autonomy over their bodies. Actually, in the past as well. You know, I remember in history, we were talking about King. No, King Henry, the 8th and he had like Six Wives, right? But what of his wife couldn't give him a son so he literally just like killed her or something. I didn't take history as you can probably tell, but I thought that was absurd. Like, I don't know why she couldn't even control. What gender sex. The child was So some people do some crazy shit. So we already established that in history. Women have been designed for childbirth. Okay, another, there's a doctor who said, as a specialist in maternal and Fetal Health, this concept is completely disgraceful. To essentially boil down a person's whole life simply to be used as a tool for others should. Never be considered to compare surrogacy to organ. Donation, is an oversimplification and he put it into much better than I did. They're just completed not the same and saraga. See is not like something that was traditionally used. I think it was the start of 1900, but I personally never understood saraga. See, like, I get why people do it, but it's even more absurd when that person is not And they have no control over their body. And it's horrible to think about the bottom line is, we don't know if it's physiological feasible to maintain life support for this length of time and whether a person on life support could maintain a viable pregnancy. It's definitely questionable to see whether a person on life. Support could maintain pregnancy. I know that pregnancies have been carried out after. The mother has died. Definitely, but it's quite uncertain, whether you can increase the pregnancy and like maintained it for nine whole months. So yeah. It's already been determined that pregnancies can be successfully, carried out to term and brain dead woman and then they also said there is no obvious, medical reason why initiating such pregnancies would not be possible but it is a disturbing Prospect the telegraph, the American Medical Association of Glamour magazine, and it's just, wow. It's not ethical at all and moral at all. And that is the end of this episode. It's quite a short one, but I felt that it was very informative and just a bit of food for thought, honestly, just for everyone to kind of think about this. I know interviews are over, but just keeping in touch with the medical community, and looking at Medical advancements and Innovation and Research into all these, ethical and legal. Issues as genuinely something that I love to do. So yeah, let me know if you enjoy this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I really appreciate you being here. If you would like to see more of my podcast and follow me on Instagram at Merit mornings, I post every Monday and yeah, see you next time. Bye bye.