On this episode of Free Range, Michael Livermore speaks with Ronald Sandler, a Professor of Philosophy at Northeastern University. Sandler writes on environmental ethics, emerging technologies, and ethical issues surrounding climate change, food, and species conservation. His books include Environmental Ethics: Theory and Practice and The Ethics of Species.

Livermore and Sandler begin the episode by discussing the relationship between various disciplines engaged in studying the environment. (0:45 - 4:11) They then turn to the question of the moral foundation for intuitions that there is special harm associated with extinction. (4:13- 9:42) Sandler dives further into this philosophical idea of values by discussing the idea that species have value above the individual organisms that comprise them. (9:50 - 15:10) Once we understand where the species came from, the history of their genetic information, and all the future possibilities they have, it is appropriate for humans to value species for what they are. (15:17 - 20:01) Sandler points out that the many ways that species and biodiversity are valuable makes normative justification of policies to protect them over-determined. (20:02 - 25:53)

Livermore and Sandler discuss whether conservation law and policy is too species-oriented. (26:00 - 30:25) Sandler believes that there should be a broader view of conservation rather than just species conservation because there can be massive biological depletion without extinction. (27:33 -) Sandler adds that the extinction crisis cannot be handled species by species, that instead we need strategies that protect and capture large amounts of species but also the ecological spaces where they can reconfigure. (30:36 - 32:11)

Livermore switches the focus by posing the question of whether humans should manage ecosystems to reduce animal suffering. Sandler finds the view that all suffering is bad strange in the context of the natural world. Sandler says that it is not just about suffering, it is about autonomy and that humans have a narrow conception of what makes for a “good” wild animal life. (32:16 - 37:10) Sandler argues that when thinking of how we ought to respond to something with value, we must also think about both the value and our situatedness in respect to them. Sandler uses an example between a pet dog versus a wild wolf to draw distinctions between the kind of duties owed. (37:14 - 47:16)

Sandler discusses the reality that humans have a common evolutionary origin with other species. Breaking down the human/non-human dichotomy undermines the view that we are distinct from the rest of the world and that the non-human world isn’t just a resource for us to use. Sandler connects this view as crucial to making the extinction crisis less severe. (47:20 - 52:41)

Livermore then asks whether the concept of justice applies in environmental ethics. Sandler discusses how there are narrow and broad conceptions of justice, thinking more broadly of how it is fair that one species (humans) use 40% of planetary resources. He states that the question should instead be how can humans and other species both flourish and live alongside one another? Sandler believes this is possible but requires making changes and reorienting our materialistic conception on what is a “good life.” (52:45 - 57:10)

They end the episode by discussing how an increasing population size will increase our human footprint even if we reduce consumption levels. Sandler explains that policies and practices that lower levels of consumption and population growth are possible. Specifically, Sandler points out a major practice that would aid in lowering these levels is shifting away from the idea that maximizing the amount of items we own will lead to a good life. (57:13 - 1:02:11)