On this episode of Free Range, UVA Law Professor Mike Livermore speaks with Jed Purdy, Duke Law Professor and author of the forthcoming Two Cheers for Politics: Why Democracy is Flawed, Frightening – and Our Best Hope.

Purdy begins by discussing why current crises and loss of confidence in democratic institutions drew him to his current project. (0:43-4:37) People have begun to ask more of politics than in previous decades to address issues such as climate change and economic inequality, but our confidence in government institutions is still low. This presents a paradox: we want more from politics but we have growing reason to doubt that politics can deliver. (4:38-10:26)

Livermore and Purdy discuss how his project fits into the broad trend of theorizing about the meaning of democracy. (10:27-16:51) Purdy endorses civic virtues like open-mindedness but he sees a tendency to avoid the aspect of democracy that is decision-making. He is sympathetic to an earlier view that is more majoritarian, along the lines of the views of mid-20th century political scientist E. E. Schattschneider. (16:52-23:59) The two discuss the problem of power imbalances in any democratic form, and discuss Purdy’s objections to the lottocracy alternative. (24:00-33:55)

Purdy goes on to discuss the mismatch between the polices generated by current system of governance and the results that most people want. He is skeptical about the possibilities of technocratic government and more optimistic about democratic reforms that would lead policy to more closely line up with people’s existing preferences. (33:56-42:47)

The conversation covers two very consequential supreme court decisions: Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization and West Virginia v. EPA. In both decisions, the Court argues that it is delivering policy questions from administrative and judicial institutions into more explicitly political bodies. Purdy suggests that the Court is not making this argument in good faith, given the existing limitation of our political institutions. (42:48-53:51)

The conversation ends with a discussion of the balance between leveraging existing institutions to effect change versus fighting for more fundamental reform. Purdy’s view is that it is important for serious people to work towards larger structural changes over the long term. He doesn’t think that the topic of constitutional reform should be left to the fringe, even if, in the near term, working within existing institutions will continue to be the primary means of improving public policy. (53:52-1:04:44)