On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore is joined by Emma Marris, an award-winning environmental writer and author of Wild Souls: Freedom and Flourishing in the Non-human World. (0:00-1:26)

The two begin the discussion by analyzing how nature is defined and valued. Marris critiques the concept of nature; for her, there is no “unspoiled” nature free from human influence, and the idea is associated with colonialist efforts to deny rights to indigenous communities. Marris contrasts the concept of nature with wilderness, which emphasizes the autonomy of non-human animals.

The subject of wild animal suffering has seen increasing focus in animal welfare circles. Marris was drawn to the subject when observing certain conservation practices, especially concerning so-called “invasive species.” Many of these practices involve killing wild animals, and she saw that there were difficult moral questions that were often ignored. (1:47-18:40)

The conversation moves into the ethics of zoos. Marris believes zoos are unethical as they stand today, even though they have positioned themselves as conservation organizations. While some zoos run breeding programs for endangered species and encourage the public to care more about wild animals, animals endure a lot of suffering in most institutions. When considering the ethics of zoos, one important question is whether and how the notion of animal autonomy is relevant. (18:41-30:39)

Zoos and hunting present quite different questions concerning wild animal suffering. For Marris, hunting can be conducted in many different ways, with some being ethical and some not. The two discuss how the attitude of the hunter may or may not matter in the moral calculus. (30:40-43:35)

Switching to a more overarching conversation about the ethics of food consumption, Marris notes that simply existing in the modern world requires the consumption of goods that had a production process that at some point harmed another group. She also raises the question of why we should even care about nature, biodiversity, animals, etc. in general. It is difficult to describe exactly what we value. Livermore notes that the field of environmental ethics is relatively new in human moral discourse, so it isn’t very surprising that there are many open questions. (43:35-50:14)

For the remainder of the podcast, Livermore and Marris discuss the paradox of life and suffering. The fundamental truth of nature is that life cannot occur without suffering and ecosystems would not exist without death. While Marris believes that this issue can never be resolved, she is attracted to the views of philosopher Val Plumwood, who argued that we need to hold reconcilable values at the same time. In order to live, we all want to consume energy but it is impossible to do so while keeping everything alive, vibrant, and diverse. (50:15-57:11)