In an episode recorded before the US presidential elections (somehow) Matt and Hailey end season 4 with a discussion of agent based models, following on from our previous conversation with Dr. Brandon Marshall on the topic. This was perhaps the hardest solo conversations we’ve had as neither of us have much experience with them, but we are both really fascinated by them. We discuss their role in epi curriculum and whether all epi students should learn them. We discuss what they are and how they are useful in epidemiology as simulations and whether they are like SimCity. We also discuss their relationship with counterfactuals and counterfactual theory. We talk about how we see them as relating to DAGs and feedback loops. And we talk about the no interference assumption as it related to both causal inference and agent based models