In the fourth epsiode of the 'Leaders' series of the Downtown Den podcast, Frank McKenna chats with the chief executive of Birmingham City Council, Deborah Cadman.

Deborah discusses her vaired career, her experiences prior to taking on the chief executive role at Birmingham City Council, the lessons she has learned from leaders and her stint working for Mo Mowlam.

Deborah also shares her thoughts and opinions on how various government structures can change and reform to deliver better services for communities.