Anyone engaged in policymaking knows that it’s a complex business. But how often do policymakers take the time to think about the number of complex systems that have a bearing on their work? On the latest podcast, Helen Sullivan chats with Deborah Blackman, Claudia Pahl-Wostl, and Datu Buyung Agusdinata about how thinking about the science of systems can lead to better policymaking.

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