Ashley Surratt, Head of Talent Acquisition at Black & Veatch, went from recruiting at AWS to sourcing engineers who build power grids, water systems, and data centers. The shift completely redefined what "difficult sourcing" actually means. Think tech recruiting is hard? Try finding a project manager who needs 10 years designing wastewater treatment plants before they're even qualified to manage one.

In this episode we talk about the gap between tech and blue collar sourcing, why "project manager" means something totally different in infrastructure, and how Ashley's team gets creative when LinkedIn doesn't work. You'll hear the unicorn hunter playbook for industries where traditional channels fail, why trade schools beat college degrees, and how certifications and field experience force you to think 10 moves ahead. Plus, Ashley's 1% daily improvement philosophy and why it compounds faster than any Boolean string.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

➡ Infrastructure recruiting is exploding due to massive government spending, but the talent pipeline hasn't caught up.

➡ When LinkedIn fails, source from trade association directories, certification boards, competitor postings, and job fairs at project sites.

➡ Skilled trades run on apprenticeships, not degrees. Understand how electricians, welders, and HVAC techs enter and progress.

➡ Boolean hits a wall in blue collar roles. Work backward from certifications, union memberships, or project lists.

➡ 1% daily improvement triples your effectiveness yearly. Continuous improvement beats big swings.

➡ Infrastructure talent sees their work in the real world. Tangible impact attracts different candidates.

➡ Ashley won SourceCon's Sourcing Anonymous, proving creativity beats a massive LinkedIn Recruiter license.

CHAPTERS

00:00 – Intro & Technical Difficulties
00:17 – Meet Ashley Surratt from Black & Veatch
01:38 – What is EPC and Why Infrastructure Recruiting Matters
03:08 – The Biggest Myth About Switching Industries
05:08 – Why "Project Manager" Means Something Totally Different in Construction
08:42 – Creative Sourcing When LinkedIn Fails
12:15 – Trade Schools, Apprenticeships, and the Skilled Trades Pipeline
18:30 – Boolean's Limits in Blue Collar Recruiting
24:50 – Working Backward from Certifications and Licenses
31:20 – How to Source for Roles That Require Hands-On Field Experience
38:10 – Why Infrastructure Talent Sees Their Work in the Real World
43:45 – Ashley's Sourcing Anonymous Win and Lessons Learned
48:20 – The Power of 1% Daily Improvement
52:31 – Next Guest Recommendations
54:00 – Closing Question: How Can You Improve 1% Today?

SOUND BITES

"I'm like, well, project managers are everywhere. What do you talk to? And then I got here and it was really estimation and having to have this giant, very niche engineering background, like, 10 years of designing the wastewater treatment before you even start managing the project."

"I'm a really big believer in continuous improvement even if it's just 1%. What could I have done differently to be better tomorrow?"

GUEST INFO

Name: Ashley Surratt
Company: Black & Veatch (EPC firm focused on water, power, and infrastructure)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleysurratt/
Expertise: Head of Talent Acquisition specializing in engineering, skilled trades, and infrastructure recruiting. Former AWS sourcing leader. SourceCon Sourcing Anonymous winner.

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Brandon Jeffs isn't your average recruiter. He's the founder of Building the Talent Machine, a content studio serving the recruiting tech industry, and he's built his brand on storytelling, authenticity, and refusing to blend into the beige corporate landscape. This conversation cuts through the usual conference BS and gets real about what it takes to stand out in recruiting today: humor, intentionality, and understanding your why.

In this episode we talk about RecFest experiences, the power of personality in recruiting, and why authenticity beats polish every time. You'll hear Brandon's journey from working in homeless shelters to building a recruiting career that blends content creation, executive search, and storytelling. We dig into how humor functions as strategy, brand amplification, and rebellion against the boring status quo. Brandon shares hard-won lessons about building community, leveraging content for business development, and why asking "why do you recruit?" might be the most important question you answer today.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

➡ Brandon runs Building the Talent Machine as both a podcast and a content studio that services the recruiting technology industry while doing executive search work.

➡ Shally's show has reached 312 episodes with 173 unique guests and over 24,000 total views without any intentional self-promotion strategy.

➡ RecFest brings together 3,000+ recruiters in Austin for networking, learning, and building community in ways traditional conferences can't match.

➡ Humor in recruiting serves triple duty: it's a recruiting strategy, a brand amplifier, and an act of rebellion against corporate blandness.

➡ Brandon built his entire recruiting career thanks to one recruiter who gave him an opportunity when he was living paycheck to paycheck working at a homeless shelter.

➡ Authenticity beats perfection: showing up in tie-dye and cowboy boots at HR Tech is memorable brand building, not career suicide.

➡ Content creation for recruiters isn't about going viral. It's about building genuine relationships and creating value for your specific community.

➡ The most important question recruiters should ask themselves daily: "Why do I do this?" Knowing your why changes everything about how you recruit.

CHAPTERS:

00:00 – Intro and RecFest Recap

SOUND BITES:

"No one orders milk toast at brunch."

"I'm the only influencer you'll ever meet that doesn't have social media."

"Ask why you do it. Before you log on and sleuth the Internet, before you book your calendar with six to eight screens a day, ask yourself why you're doing it."

GUEST INFO:

Name: Brandon Jeffs
Website: buildingthetalentmachine.com
LinkedIn: Brandon Jeffs
Expertise: Content creator, recruiter, and founder who helps recruiting tech companies tell their stories while filling executive search roles in go-to-market functions.

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Want to know why some recruiters build unstoppable pipelines while others struggle? It starts with curiosity. Liz Whitehead brings raw energy and practical wisdom about what actually works in talent acquisition: staying curious, adapting like a french fry (yes, really), and remembering that recruiting is fundamentally about people, not Boolean strings. She's built her career on tech obsession balanced with genuine human connection, and this conversation reveals exactly how she does it.

Key Takeaways

➡ Forever curious beats forever busy. The best recruiters treat every conversation as an opportunity to learn something new about people, industries, and motivations.

➡ Be a french fry, not a filet mignon. Versatility matters more than specialization. Adapt to different environments, clients, and challenges instead of staying rigid in your approach.

➡ Technology without humanity is just noise. Tools amplify your work, but genuine curiosity and authentic connection are what actually fill pipelines.

➡ Ask "why?" at least three times. Candidates give surface-level answers initially. Dig deeper to understand true motivations, goals, and pain points.

➡ Stop hoarding tools, start solving problems. Identify your ONE biggest pain point, then find the tool that solves it. Master that before adding more to your stack.

➡ Joy is a recruiting superpower. Bringing positive energy to every interaction isn't soft skill fluff, it's what makes candidates want to engage with you.

➡ Learn from the people you want to work with. Liz built her sourcing expertise by following industry leaders like Shally and Greg Hawkes, then applying what she learned.

➡ The intake conversation is everything. Whether it's a hiring manager or a candidate, understanding pain points upfront determines your success rate.

➡ Data scraping and automation aren't magic. They're just tools that free up time for relationship building, which is still the real work of recruiting.

Chapters

00:00 – Intro: Fall weather and allergy wars
02:05 – Meet Liz Whitehead: The one that got away
04:09 – Early career: Finding the sourcing path
07:22 – The curiosity framework: Why "input" is everything
12:45 – Technology obsession meets human connection
18:30 – The french fry philosophy: Versatility as strategy
25:17 – Building authentic candidate relationships
31:40 – Asking "why?" three times: The deeper conversation
38:55 – Tool selection strategy: Solve ONE pain point
44:20 – Learning from industry leaders and applying it
51:15 – Liz Connects: Building community through connection
54:00 – Closing thoughts and guest recommendations

Sound Bites

"How are you like a French fry? Can you adapt to your environment, be seasoned different ways, and show up differently based on what's needed?" – Shally Steckerl

"Focus on one pain point and start there. You'll be surprised how far you get." – Liz Whitehead

Guest Info

Name: Liz Whitehead

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizconnects/
Expertise: Talent sourcing specialist focused on technology, automation, and authentic human connection in recruiting. Known for curiosity-driven approaches and building genuine candidate relationships.

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Angel Alexander: From Therapist to Workforce Architect

SUMMARY:

What happens when a mental health therapist pivots into talent acquisition? You get someone who sees recruiting as relationship architecture, not transaction management. Angel Alexander managed 36 recruiters, negotiated over 10,000 offers (up to 30 per week), and built diversity pipelines that actually worked because she focused on outcomes, not policies.

Her secret? Understanding that all business is personal, meeting people where they are, and asking what candidates need instead of assuming what impresses them.

In this episode we talk about the uncomfortable truths most TA leaders avoid. Angel breaks down why community outreach beats corporate strategy every time, how she convinced people to take $50,000 pay cuts, and why your hiring managers need to stop weeding candidates out and start weeding them in. We get into the psychology of salary negotiations, the 15+ hiring biases killing your pipeline, and why that candidate in flip-flops might be your next top performer. Plus, Angel shares her Unplugged Connect card game that forces deeper conversations than your standard screening call ever could.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

CHAPTERS:

SOUND BITES:

"Interview-in, not interview-out. Look at their strengths and weaknesses. Weigh them out. See what can be coached and then assess in the next year what has increased."

"When you're more authentic, when you're more people-led driven, you're going to get diversity. Because they see the truth. They feel like they can be seen. They feel they can be heard."

"I had people take a $50,000 pay cut because of the type of internal benefits that we have. It's not just about weeding in their qualifications. I want to know what's not on your resume."

GUEST INFO:

Name: Angel Alexander
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/angeldba
Expertise: Founder of Unplugged Connect | Diversity Pipeline Strategist | Former Therapist Turned TA Leader Who Negotiated 10,000+ Offers

Diane Prince sold her staffing firm for $28 million and discovered something counterintuitive: the biggest business killers aren't market conditions or competition. They're the psychological traps entrepreneurs set for themselves. Her raw advice cuts through entrepreneurial fantasy and delivers the mindset shifts that actually move the revenue needle.

In this episode we talk about the sunk cost fallacy that keeps founders throwing good money after bad, why perfectionist control freaks can't scale past themselves, and the offshore team management system that turns virtual assistants into revenue drivers. Prince breaks down her modified EOS approach, explains why most tool purchases are expensive mistakes, and reveals the uncomfortable truth about holding onto wrong-fit employees.

Key Takeaways

➡ Sunk cost fallacy is the business killer: Stop doing what's not working regardless of investment

➡ Prince's client spent $250K building a custom ATS when Bullhorn already did the job

➡ Wrong people cost more than their salaries: They drag down your entire team's performance

➡ Perfectionism prevents scaling: Things won't be perfect even when you do them yourself

➡ One extra $30K placement covers an entire virtual assistant team for a year

➡ 75% of entrepreneurs don't know their breakeven point or if they're profitable

➡ Leadership must use the tools they buy: If you're not in the system, your team won't be either

➡ Vision assessment every 90 days: Your why can change, and that's okay

➡ Global talent misconception: Treating offshore workers as individuals, not geography stereotypes

Chapters

02:47 – The $28M Sale Story

05:06 – Sunk Cost Fallacy Lesson

08:04 – Why Entrepreneurs Keep Failing

12:13 – Offshore Team Management

20:30 – Delegation Mindset Shifts

23:08 – EOS System Modifications

28:53 – Technology Tool Trap

36:41 – Scaling Uncomfortable Truths

40:17 – Business Timing Questions

46:48 – Common Leadership Blind Spots

Sound Bites

"If something is not working, stop doing it no matter what you've invested in it. You're always starting from scratch."

"I hired someone from India and it was a disaster, so I'm never doing it again is the same as saying I hired someone from Texas and I'm never hiring from Texas again."

"Salespeople who haven't done a deal in a year while founders aren't paying themselves because they feel guilty."

Guest InfoName: Diane Prince
Website: dianeprince.co
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeprincejohnston/

Expertise: Business acceleration coach specializing in staffing agencies and offshore team building

Ben Solomon has built something rare in recruiting: a sourcing team that works. After 18 years at Objective Partners, he's cracked the code on hiring, training, and scaling sourcing teams in both agency and RPO environments. This isn't theory from a consultant who job-hops every two years. This is battle-tested wisdom from someone who's hired dozens of sourcers and watched them succeed or fail.

In this episode we discuss the counterintuitive hiring strategies that prioritize curiosity over technical skills, why liberal arts majors often outperform computer science graduates in sourcing roles, and Ben's specific interview questions that reveal research capabilities without testing Boolean knowledge. You'll hear about the "Merlin test" that exposes attention to detail, why museum and library experience trumps CRM knowledge, and how to build confidence in sourcers who need to switch between multiple clients daily.

Key Takeaways

Chapters

Sound Bites

"What happens if AI doesn't turn out the way everybody thinks it's going to? What if we're in an AI bubble and there's a collapse?" - Ben Solomon

"We're all on the same team. We're all aiming for the same thing. There's a division of labor for a reason." - Ben Solomon

Guest InfoName: Ben Solomon

Marcel VanderMeer brings a refreshingly pragmatic European perspective to the AI automation conversation, cutting through the Silicon Valley hype with real-world implementation wisdom. This isn't another "AI will change everything" conversation. Instead, Marcel reveals why most successful "AI" projects are actually 80% traditional automation with just 20% machine learning sprinkled on top.

In this episode we dive into the economics of automation, the hidden costs that blindside companies, and why the fastest path to ROI starts with fixing boring, repetitive tasks rather than building fantasy AI agents. Marcel shares frameworks for identifying genuine productivity gains versus expensive tech theater, plus real examples from European recruitment agencies that automated their way to 4-hour candidate delivery cycles.

Key Takeaways

➡ 80% of successful AI implementations are actually basic automation, only 20% involves true machine learning

➡ Hidden automation costs include maintenance, token fees, training, integration, and documentation requirements

➡ European law now requires full AI documentation, creating accountability that US companies often skip

➡ The "AI agent" trend is mostly marketing fluff - real autonomous agents don't exist yet in practical business applications

➡ Quick wins beat grand visions: Focus on 90-day automation projects before building multi-year AI fantasies

➡ Companies that automate 2-day recruitment cycles down to 4 hours see immediate competitive advantages

➡ The biggest limitation isn't the technology - it's people not knowing what tasks to automate

➡ Red flag: When executives want to "replace everyone with agents" instead of improving specific processes

➡ Email and LinkedIn automation can save 400+ repetitive responses, but requires human-in-the-loop oversight

➡ Most automation ROI comes from eliminating boring tasks, not necessarily saving the most time per transaction

Chapters

Sound Bites

"The limitation of your possibilities is within yourself. It's not with the tool." - Marcel VanderMeer

"People don't have an idea. They don't know what works. The biggest problem with AI is that people just don't ideate what could I do with this." - Shally Steckerl

"There are no real AI agents now. There are agent look-alikes, but not real AI agents." - Marcel VanderMeer

Guest Info

Name: Marcel VanderMeer
Website: klikwork.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcel-vd-meer/
Expertise: European automation consultant specializing in recruitment agency process optimization and AI implementation roadmaps

David Jaramillo brings fifteen years of cross-industry recruiting wisdom to challenge everything you think you know about modern talent acquisition. From hospitality to finance to tech startups, he's seen how the fundamentals of human connection consistently outperform the latest recruiting technology. His insights on referrals, metrics that mislead, and the dangerous trap of culture fit will make you question your entire approach.

In this episode we talk about transforming referral programs from afterthoughts into strategic powerhouses, why most executives obsess over meaningless metrics while missing what actually drives results, and the critical difference between hiring for culture fit versus culture add. David shares battle-tested frameworks for non-employee referrals, reveals which metrics actually mislead leadership teams, and explains when "people like us" thinking becomes toxic to innovation.

Key Takeaways

➡ 90% of referrals come from the same 5-10% of employees in most companies

Chapters

00:00 - Intro and David's Background

Sound Bites

"We're not hiring widgets. These aren't machines. We're hiring people, and people trust recommendations from people they know."

"Better to find out it's not working at three months than twelve months. Better now than later."

"Are we hiring for tomorrow's growth or just filling today's seats? That's the question that separates strategic recruiting from reactive seat-filling."

Guest Info

Name: David Jaramillo
Company: Canyon Rach (Talent Acquisition Leader)
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/davidjaramillo
Expertise one-liner: Cross-industry TA veteran who transforms referral programs and builds metrics frameworks that drive strategic hiring decisions across hospitality, finance, IT, and healthcare sectors.

What if getting laid off with a newborn was actually the best thing that ever happened to your career? Julia Arpag, CEO of a bootstrapped search firm, proves that massive career leaps and radical LinkedIn transparency can build a profitable recruiting business from scratch. Her unconventional approach to intake calls, candidate vetting, and hiring manager calibration is rewriting the playbook for elite talent acquisition.

In this episode we talk about Julia's journey from AmeriCorps volunteer to startup CEO, her four-step technical vetting process that actually works, and why she believes LinkedIn content strategy is the ultimate free marketing machine. You'll hear exactly how she handles resistant hiring managers, scales organically without burning cash, and why measuring hires instead of activity metrics changed everything for her team.

Key Takeaways:

➡ Julia received 6 job offers within 2 weeks of being laid off, which sparked her decision to start her own search firm

➡ 100% of her business growth came from LinkedIn transparency and content strategy - zero paid advertising

➡ Her intake calls include unusual questions about cultural add and emotional intelligence, not just technical skills

➡ Calibration calls within 48 hours of initial candidate profiles ensure radical alignment with hiring managers

➡ She maintains about 4 active candidates per requisition as the optimal pipeline metric

➡ Her 4-step technical vetting process: verbal screen, technical screen, take-home assessment, and evidence review

➡ Company scaled organically and profitably with just 6 team members: 1 director, 2 sourcers, 1 recruiter, 2 ops managers

➡ Compensation is tied directly to hires made, not activity metrics like emails sent or submittals

➡ Daily iteration of Boolean search strings and creative sourcing tactics uncover new prospect pools

➡ She advocates measuring decision support value even when recruiter candidates aren't ultimately hired

Chapters:

Sound Bites:

"I took a course on LinkedIn posting the very day I decided to start my business - that transparency literally drove all my revenue."

"Activity metrics like submittals and emails don't reflect true impact. Compensation should align with actual hires, period."

Guest Info:Name: Julia ArpagWebsite: https://www.alignedrecruitment.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-arpag/Expertise: CEO of startup search firm specializing in elite technical recruiting and LinkedIn content strategy

Most recruiters are operating with blinders on, managing only full-time employees while ignoring 50% of their actual workforce. Jeff Mike, former head of human capital research at Deloitte, reveals how the "extended workforce" encompasses everything from contractors and gig workers to statement-of-work consultants, volunteers, and even AI agents. This isn't just about temps anymore - it's about completely reimagining how we deliver on work outcomes instead of just filling requisitions.

In this episode we talk about the massive blind spot in talent acquisition that's costing companies millions in missed productivity and flawed analytics. Jeff breaks down the legal risks of co-employment and misclassification, explains why procurement has been running this show instead of HR, and reveals how smart recruiters can future-proof their careers by becoming true talent partners who deliver solutions, not just hires.

Key Takeaways

➡ Extended workforce includes contractors, temps, gig workers, SOW consultants, volunteers, interns, and even AI agents - potentially 50% of your actual workforce

➡ Most companies track extended workforce spend through procurement, not HR, creating massive visibility gaps in people analytics

➡ Co-employment risk = treating contractors like employees; misclassification = putting workers in wrong tax categories

➡ Vendor Management Systems (VMS) like Beeline and Fieldglass were built as procurement tools, not people tools

➡ California's ABC classification test is the fastest way to educate yourself on contractor vs employee distinctions

➡ Statement-of-work resources from consulting firms often mask staff augmentation when direct hiring fails

➡ Future-proofed recruiters think "delivering on work outcomes" instead of "filling requisitions"

➡ People analytics is incomplete without extended workforce data - you're measuring half your actual productivity

➡ Business volatility and talent shortages are driving 60% of companies toward more flexible workforce models

Chapters

Sound Bites

"You can't measure what you can't manage, but that doesn't mean don't manage it if there's not a measure developed yet."

"If the contingent workforce is not in your people analytics, your people analytics is incomplete."

"It's really about broadening your perspectives on what's the outcome and then what's the best category to get you to that outcome."

Guest Name: Jeff Mike
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-mike/
Expertise: Extended workforce strategy expert and former head of human capital research at Deloitte, specializing in workforce analytics and talent acquisition optimization

About Shally: srcn.co/me