In this conversation, Dudley and Pastor Chris McRae explore what pastoral leadership looks like in a culture shaped by consumer Christianity. Chris reflects on the weight of the pastoral calling, the need to know and care for the flock, and how the vision of the Kingdom of God challenges many of the assumptions modern Christianity has adopted. Their dialogue raises an essential question for the church today: What is discipleship? Is it spiritual convenience, or a life shaped by the gospel and surrendered to the true Shepherd?

Together they discuss why pastors must resist the pressure to offer transactional messages and instead call people into the life Jesus offers. By rooting ministry in relationship, grace, and the transforming power of the gospel, they point toward a way of being the church that is faithful, joyful, and free.

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