Few things affect our lives as much as the fact that we are citizens of one country rather than another.  The government of, the economy of, and the rights recognized and opportunities provided by the country we live in shape our lives.  But how real are any of these facts and things?  Without human beliefs, and societies of humans, there would be no states, no facts of citizenship, no money, and few opportunities.  Are our lives built on ontological fluff?  Ken and John discuss the metaphysics of the social with famed philosopher John Searle, author of Making the Social World: The Structure of Human Civilization. This program was recorded live at the Marsh theatre in Berkeley.