In this episode, Canon Phil talks with the Rt. Rev. Thad Barnum about his lifelong work on caring for the souls of leaders and clergy in the Church. 

How can we measure real success in a church's life? By the character and inner qualities that each leader has. Too often the American Church sees membership numbers or spiritual gifting as measures of success, but the inner life of the minister is ignored. Bishop Thad talks with Phil about coming back to the heart of true Gospel ministry.