In this special edition of the Risky Business podcast Patrick Gray chats with former Facebook CSO Alex Stamos and founding CISA director Chris Krebs about sovereignty and technology.

China and Russia are doing their level best to yeet American tech from their supply chains – hardware, software and cloud services. They’ll be rebuilding these supply chains – for government systems, at least – from components that they have complete visibility into, and control over.

Meanwhile, America’s government faces different supply chain challenges. It has a supply chain that won’t be weaponised against it by its adversaries, but it lacks the same sort of visibility and control that its adversaries will eventually achieve over their supply chains. So where does this leave the west? Where does it leave China and Russia?