What is a chantey? Is 2021's surprising viral hit "The Wellerman" really one? And what does San Francisco Maritime's longtime music programs coordinator, Peter Kasin, have to say for everyone looking to follow this internationally flavored music?

TRANSCRIPT: “SONGS OF SEA AND SHORE WITH CHANTEYMAN PETER KASIN” [Adult male voice singing chorus of “O, California!” to the tune of “O, Susanna!”] Sabrina Oliveros (SO): Hello! I’m Sabrina Oliveros. Anne Monk (AM): And I'm Anne Monk. SO: We’re park guides at San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park, and co-hosts of the podcast Better Lives, Bitter Lies. AM: Today, we’re bringing you a special episode on a topic that might catch the ear of anyone interested in musical maritime history. SO: The topic is sea chanteys – which, you might have heard about recently through the app, TikTok, or the internet and social media in general... AM: Or through movies or video games, or because you are a music--as well as maritime-- aficionado... SO: Or because you’ve had the great luck to attend a park program led by our interviewee today, Peter Kasin! AM: Peter Kasin was an interpretive ranger at the park for 28 years. Through words both sung and spoken, Peter has helped share the stories of Pacific maritime music and labor history. He retired in October 2020, but you wouldn’t know it! He still devotes much time to volunteering as our music programs coordinator. SO: That’s also the role he had as a ranger, organizing the park’s monthly chantey sing, as well as performances for the annual Festival of the Sea, and the evening Sea Music Concert Series. We’ll actually learn a little more about Peter's career path and relationship with the maritime park during our interview. AM: Shall we listen to it now? SO: Sure! AM: Let’s go! [PHONE INTERVIEW BEGINS] SO: As we all know, um, chanteys have become viral recently, but San Francisco Maritime has had a long-standing chantey program--thanks a lot to you, Peter. So, [AM: Certainly, yeah] we think you're the perfect person to ask to tell us briefly about the history of chantey songs? Commented [MAA1]: Catch the ear of? Peter Kasin (PK): Well , sure! Chanteys--as we know them...as they come down to us-- um, really took off in the 19th century during the Golden Age of Sail. I say the Golden Age of Sail and the golden age of chanteys was roughly from the 1840s through the 1860s. However chanteys have probably been sung as long as there's been people on boats and ships. The, the oldest records, uh, that are known of go back to about 1400, where in some writings--in England, for example--there's a few references to these chants that sailors are doing, but there's no written music associated with them. They're only little fragments of verses. Chanteys, as we know them with lots of verses and melodies were really from the Golden Age of Sail and that were collected by, um, sailors and authors. Then in the 1930s and 1940s, the Library of Congress recorded chanteymen, who were by that time old, old men, but were able to get down onto recordings, um, a number of sea chanteys. So, there were a number of sources of how we know about these songs. And, uh, collectors have taken down melodies, you know. They’ve written down notes to them after hearing some of these people sing them. But I also want to mention that there's a wider world of chanteys than only the massive sailing ships going around Cape Horn. Uh, chanteys--defined as maritime work songs to set rhythm--we find them in rowing songs from, uh, African countries, uh, we...rowing songs from Scotland, and we find them in nethauling songs from Hokkaido, Japan, and net-hauling on the Carolina coast here in the U.S. from African American men who are, uh, working with menhaden fish and singing chanteys as they hauled on nets. So there are many different uses for these chanteys, uh, not just on the big sailing ships. AM: Sure. Thank you. And the, um, beauty of the and the utility of the chantey is that together, if you're singing the same song, you're likely to be able to work at the same rhythm? PK: Right. It would set the rhythm and also lift your spirits. You could count out numbers. You could go one, two, three haul, one, two, three haul, but that one it would set rhythm, but it really wouldn't do anything to make your job seem to go a little easier or interesting. So, uh, these chanteys, they would lift sailors' spirits--or at least try to--during these really hard and dangerous jobs they do. And that's something else I should mention about what distinguishes the chantey is that it's not only a work song, but the style that is done in this call-and-response, where you have a leader--in this case, the chanteyman--who calls out verses and then the crew, um, calls back to him with a chorus and the chorus is the same over and over again, and the verses change. And you find that style on land-based work songs as well. AM: Okay. And, um, how do chanteys differ from other call-and-response type songs? PK: They're very similar. There's a lot of interchange that goes on, uh, between, um, chanteys used aboard ships and work songs used on land. As a matter of fact, there's, uh, interesting connections between railroad workers and, uh, chanteymen where sometimes people, uh, would get jobs aboard ships and they would bring songs they knew from the railway on the ships and, and vice versa. And also sometimes land-based songs that were not even about working on ships were adapted. For example, you'd take popular songs of the time in the 19th century, such as songs written by Stephen Foster, and those songs were brought aboard sailing ships, and the words were changed. Melody was pretty much the same, but they would adapt these songs for shipboard use. I'll give you an example of one, if you'd like. Um, [SO: Sure!] Here's one, it was a capstan chantey used for raising an anchor and, uh, it's called, "Oh, California!" And the melody is from "Oh, Susanna." [sings] I come from Salem City with a washbowl on my knee. I'm going to California, the gold dust for to see. It rained all night the day I left, the weather it was dry. The sun so hot I froze to death, oh, brothers, don't you cry! Oh, California! That's the land for me. I'm bound for San Francisco with my washbowl on my knee. PK: [speaking] So that's just one verse and chorus from that song, but there're several verses to that. They're just a good example of taking a popular song ashore and adapting it to be used as a chantey. SO: I'm glad you brought that up about popular songs being adapted to chanteys, because one thing that popped into my head was how did sailors learn these work songs? I mean, I'm tempted to say now if you were being oriented to a new job, you'd all sit in the room and get taught the company songs. [AM: Hahaha, a solid eight hours] You'd get into a conference room [PK: Yeah.] and be taught your company songs, [AM: Mhm] but I don't think that happened then. So, how did like how they just keep learning these songs? AM: Mhm, especially when, uh, they potentially may not have shared the same language? [SO: Mhm] PK: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's interesting question, because, uh, these 19th century crews were often international crews. For instance, you'll hear, uh, chanteys used by, uh, French sailors or German sailors and, uh, they would often sing in their own languages, but then, all of a sudden, you start hearing English words. Uh, so they would adapt these chanteys that might've started, um, here in the U.S. or in the, uh, United Kingdom. United States and Great Britain were [AM: Mhm] two of the major places Commented [OL2]: Cutting out because of audio where these chanteys were, um, begun, you know, and sung. And then you had, uh, a whole number of French shanties, for example. And then within English language chanteys, you had, often, influences, um, that were both--uh, at the same time--Irish influences and African American influences. There are a whole number of chanteys in the 1840s that had both influences because you'd have, um, African Americans working aboard ships and Irishmen working aboard ships, and one watch is below and they could hear the songs...Irishmen would hear the songs sung by Black men, and vice versa. And so you get these interesting combinations of these musical traditions. Uh, and then in the West Indies, uh, in the Caribbean Islands where a lot of British ships came in there, the native, um, islanders would pick up chanteys too, and they would sort of make up their own renditions of shanties that originated, um, in the countries where their ships came from. [AM: Mhm] And it's an interesting phenomenon, how you had groups on land, where there was a lot of racism going on, um, and, uh, and competition for jobs and, you know, just racism. And yet, musically, things just mixed together. I mean, it's too bad it didn't...Things didn't go so swimmingly well, you know, socially and economically and politically as they did musically. [chuckles sadly] So it's an interesting phenomenon about the music, how that all sort of came together in the songs. AM: Sure, I wonder if you could continue to say that about modern music too. [SO: Mhm] But, uh, in, in thinking about how much blending and melding and influencing there is in chantey music, could you tell us a little bit about how West coast chanteys are unique? PK: Yeah. You know, um, you found on the West coast chanteys about the West Coast. Chanteys about California, about immigrating to California, or the Gold Rush. But they were sung not just in California, but these became chanteys that were also sung in, uh, you know, in Great Britain among sailors there, as well as American sailors. So, another way that the chanteys kind of mixed together. But yeah, there's some really interesting ones about California and about San Francisco. Um, chanteys, for example, about shanghai-ing sailors. And "shanghai-ing" is a term that originated in San Francisco when clipper ships were going from San Francisco to Shanghai, China, in the tea trade. It's a very long journey. You might have to wait a long time in China to get a ship that would take you back to, uh, San Francisco. And so it was hard to get enough crew to go willingly. And so they would kidnap sailors. And that's how that form of kidnapping became known as shanghai-ing, because they said you were shipped to Shanghai, and then that got shortened down to shanghai-ing. And, for example, the hauling chantey, "Whiskey, Johnny," that's all about, uh, shanghai-ing sailors and warning sailors about the, uh, crimps who ran the boarding houses and saloons in San Francisco. [Sings] If you ever go to Frisco-town, Whiskey-Johnny, Mind you steer clear of Shanghai Brown. Whiskey for me, Johnny! He'll dope your whiskey nights and morn, Whiskey-Johnny, And then shanghai you 'round Cape Horn. Whiskey for me, Johnny! PK: [Speaking] And that goes on and on with verses about sailors being drugged and shanghaied aboard sailing ships. Shanghai-ing is a real theme, ha, when you have chanteys about San Francisco. SO & AM: Mhm. PK: And the Gold Rush is also a theme. AM: Yeah. Uh, I'm wishing we've maybe had this conversation earlier. You could have sound-tracked our, our other podcast episodes. [SO laughs] Um, but, uh, can you tell us on a--on a personal note, what drew you to chantey music? PK: Yeah, well, you know, I, I grew up on music. I mean, I think my mother got me my first records when I was about three years old [laughs] of, uh, folk music. And then, you know, as I got older, I got interested in rock music and blues and jazz and such, but always had a, you know, taste for folk music. But what really got me into a deeper dive into chanteys is when I went to my first chantey sing at Hyde Street Pier as a visitor in, uh, November of 1989. Some friends who I knew from the Irish music scene, because I, I play fiddle music. They called me up one night and said, “Hey, we're going to a chantey sing in San Francisco. You want to come?” I said, “Okay, I've never been to one, but I'm game.” And this was aboard the Balclutha. And there were about 70, 75 people there, all singing along. And I saw a park ranger with a guitar upfront. I just said, “Oh my God, what a great job! I, I want to do this!” [laughs] So, uh, I was just taken by the whole event and it was like an epiphany for me. So I went up to the ranger and introduced myself and said, “I'm really interested in getting involved with the park and in the chantey programs.” Her name was Celeste Bernardo. Uh, she had recently tooken [sic] over the, uh, music program from a ranger, Dave Nettle, who founded the chantey sing back in 1981. And, uh, so Celeste and I became good friends and we're still very good friends. And, uh, she really mentored me. And I started volunteering at the park in 1990. I volunteered for two years, and then I got hired as a ranger in 1992. When I started as a ranger, um, Celeste had already left. Revell Carr was the ranger, uh, who was running, uh, the music programs here at Hyde Street Pier at the time. He had a lot of experience at Mystic Seaport Museum. And Revell really mentored me in how chanteys were used aboard ships. He taught me a lot about sail-handling and how to use the capstan and pumps, taught me to climb aloft in the rigging and such. From there, you know, I, I kept going to chantey sings and learning more about chanteys and learning more about maritime history. I would credit my work at the park--both as a volunteer, and then later as a ranger--as my real education in chanteys. [Laughs] I think it's a lifetime education, you know, discovering more about them, discovering more old songs to learn, discovering new songs to learn, and such. SO: Yeah. [AM: Wonderful.] Yeah. I, I love that story, Peter. Thanks for sharing. And I love it for, like, two things, [AM: Uh, huh?] especially. It made me think if you got into this whole profession, because you happened to attend a chantey sing [AM: Mhm] when you were younger and then you spearheaded that entire program eventually. And I think it also, like, suggests that almost anything can be your hook into maritime history. And in your case, it was really the music. [AM: Mhm] PK: Right. That's right. People come to our park from so many different angles, uh, so many different routes. And that's right, it was the music that was my entry into maritime history. It's so rich, so deep, and there's so much to it. AM: Yeah. Well, um, and speaking about how, um, the chanteys that were about California and the Gold Rush were sung on ships all over the world--it's a good reminder that the water has very few boundaries. [PK: Good point.] And things that are worth passing along and can survive a trip around the Horn [SO: Yeah] can go anywhere. [PK: Yes.] And, uh, and speaking of things showing up in unexpected places, chanteys are certainly experiencing a surge in popularity now, um, thanks to, uh, apps like Tiktok. [PK: Yeah, yeah]. SO: Did you ever imagine that happening ever? AM: Yeah! PK: I never imagined that happening. If anything, that the song, uh, "The Wellerman," um, is actually not a chantey, but it's a, you know, a composed song, a fore-bitter, and, you know, often people will make--I think understandably--make, um, the mistake of just calling every sea song a chantey. But it's an amazing thing that happened, um, with that. You know, young people are the real drivers of, uh, I think music these days. So, in that sense, it's not surprising, but in other senses, it's very surprising how, for some reason, this particular guy doing this particular song at this particular time, all of a sudden, it's just taken off like a jet. I'm absolutely flabbergasted. I'm amazed and pleased. AM: Good, good! Yeah. Um, to backtrack a little bit, could you explain to us the difference between chanteys and sea songs? PK: Sure. Chanteys were strictly work songs [AM: Mhm] And then you had other types of songs that were used for fun. Uh, there were songs that [be]came known as fore-bitters. And those were ones that sailors would sing during their leisure time at dog watch. They're called fore-bitters 'cause you know, you go to Balclutha and right outside the foc's'le those four iron, um, bitts [SO: Ahh.] that are for tying docking lines, but fellas would use them as stools and they could sit there and sing songs and tell tall stories for fun. [AM: Mhm] Uh, it was considered bad luck to sing a chantey when you weren't working, um, you know, 'cause it was just a work song. And who knows, if one of the mates heard you singing a chantey for fun, they might say, "Hey, if you're good enough to sing it while sitting down, you're good enough to get up and do some work!" So [all laugh] they wouldn't want to do that. They were...Sailors were a superstitious lot. So, [AM: Mmm] um, but they weren't really thinking of chanteys as an art form, uh, of something to sing for fun, as we do today. They only thought of it as a tool to help them work. So you have those, you have the chanteys, then you have the fore-bitters that were done for fun. Sometimes, uh, those songs are known as shore songs, because you might sing them ashore. You might sing them in a pub. And then you have, um, a modern tradition of sea songs too. There are a lot of just beautiful songs out there about the sea and about the rivers and such. And you have people composing new chanteys. They take the style, that call-and-response style of chanteys, and they compose new songs around that. AM: As a seasoned chanteyman yourself, do you have any advice for those just diving into chanteysinging or sea song-singing? PK: Yeah. if anyone had asked me for advice, you know, "I'm interested in music, what should I do?" I would advise, first, familiarize, um, themselves with chanteys through some of the, uh, great collections like Stan Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas. His opening chapter, called, "The Art of the Shantyman" is really the best description of, uh, and history of it, uh, you know, written in the English language. Um, and his book has hundreds, several hundred shanties with both words and music. And from there, you know, people can go online, they could see, uh, YouTube videos of chantey performances by great singers, go out to the concerts, go out to sessions, go online. These days, there are a lot of Zoom sessions, and I say, hunt those out. I mean, we have our own, but there, the Mystic Seaport Museum has one. The South Street Seaport Museum in New York City has their regular monthly virtual Zoom chantey sing. And then from there, um, one can just, um, follow their own path. Follow their musical heart and their musical path to wherever it takes them. I just think it's always good to have, first, a basic knowledge of it, and then, just make the music your own. Someone might want to just continue on with traditional music or someone might want to take it and compose their own music, do their own versions, bring in instrumentation into it. I wouldn't want to have people feel that they must be bound by certain rules, or they must be bound by tradition. But it's always good to know tradition. [SO: Mhm] AM: Yeah. Well, Peter, you've sung for us a couple already, um, and it's been such a joy. Do you have any favorite chanteys or ones you think everyone should know? PK: I do have some favorites. I have so many. And then the favorites change, you know, it's like, you see a movie. “I love that movie!” Then you see another movie and you go, “Wow, that's my current favorite!” It's the same with songs. Uh, I heard this sung by the Georgia Sea Island Singers. They were, [AM: Oh!] uh, a really, a legendary group and they came to our festival back in 2003 and sang. This is one called, "The Old Tar River," and it's a, it's a hauling chantey. [sings] Oh, in the old Tar River. Ooooh-eeeee. Lord, hey, you talkin' about the old Tar River. Ooooh, talkin' about the river. The old Tar River gonna run tomorrow. Oooooh-eeeee Oh, Old Tar River gonna run tomorrow. Ooooh, talkin' about the river. I got a letter from Major Bailey. Ooooh-eeeee. But I'm walking by the old Tar River. Ooooh, talkin' about the river. Walk along, hop along to the old Tar River. Ooooh-eeeee. But the old Tar River runs black and dirty. Oh, talkin' about the river. Big Joe and Major Bailey. Ooooh-eeeee. Said the old Tar River gonna run tomorrow. Oh, talkin' about the river Way down in the old Tar River. Ooooh-eeeee. Oh the old Tar River gonna water my cattle. Oh, talkin' about the river. Oh, talking about the river. OH, talking about the river! PK: [speaking] Yeah. And, um, Georgia Sea Island singers, they still exist. There's a new generation of them that's singing and performing and keeping up those traditions. [AM: That's wonderful.] I should mention, we're going to get, um, a couple of singers from, um, South Carolina who sing songs of, um, the low country of South Carolina and the sea islands there. And, um, their names are Ron and Natalie Daize. And they sing a lot about the Gullah culture there. Uh, they're educators, actors, singers, and, um, the [San Francisco Maritime National] Park Association's going to be hosting, um, an online concert with them. And with me and my singing partner, Richard Adrianowicz. The four of us are going to do this concert. And it's going to be on Saturday, February 27th, for African American History Month at, um, 11:00 AM to 12:20, our time, that'll allow people in other time zones to be in on it. We'll be trading songs all on the theme of, um, of, uh, African American history and also some, a few which Richard and I will do a few Caribbean-based ones too. AM: Um, well, Peter, thank you so much for talking with us today. We've really enjoyed it. Um, what's the question you wish we had asked? PK: Oh, um, can anyone sing chanteys? And I would say yes. Um, I say, um, you know, the chanteymen, they were not, uh, they were not recruited out of opera houses. [all laugh] Uh, so, uh, you don't need to have a quote, good voice, unquote, to sing chanteys. I think there's a great joy to group singing, a great joy to singing these. And from chanteys, you can learn something about the maritime history. And it's open to all ages. And, um, the singing really started out as male-dominated, there have been, um, a large number of women that have come to the fore, singing chanteys--both at sessions and also performing in groups. So I'd say, uh, chanteys can be enjoyed and sung by everyone. So I really invite people to get involved and get involved at our online chantey sings. And then, when we get back to having in-person chantey sings aboard, uh, the Eureka, um, we invite everyone who's available, who's in the area to come down and take part in those. And even after we reopened the park, uh, and go back to in-person sings, we'll probably keep on, uh, doing these, uh, virtual ones, because they have become international. We get people from many countries taking part in it. AM: Certainly. I'm, uh, I'm wondering, with the, the ability to now have an international chantey sing, if you're hearing more and different chanteys? If you're learning new chanteys, um, [SO: Mhm] because of it? PK: Yes. Yeah. Constantly. I hear things I say, wow. Okay. I got to learn that one, you know? [AM: Mhm] People bring such interesting songs. Uh, uh, a person, um, in Paris joined our chantey sings. She is a graduate student at the Sorbonne and her thesis was, um, all about sea music festivals and the social interactions at the festivals. And so, she brings French shanties into it. We have another one from the Czech Republic, and she's brought some singing in the native Czech language into it. So we've gotten people from Europe and I, I hope we can get people from, um, Asian countries and islands and, uh, African continent. I hope that these virtual chantey sings can even just broaden out and broaden out the people that take part. I'd like to think of chanteys as the first world music. Hopefully, we can keep that going. [PHONE INTERVIEW ENDS] SO: So, Anne, do you now feel like singing? AM: Hmn, always, but I think I would still rather listen to Peter sing... SO: Oh. Yeah. I think I’d prefer that, too! AM: [laughs] Dang! SO: No offense. AM: Uh-huh. To anyone who enjoyed today’s episode, feel free to join the concert this coming Saturday, February 27th, and do follow our social media page for information on future chantey sings and concerts. SO: Also check out our park’s website for videos of Peter Kasin presenting even more songs. AM: And to hear the rest of our available and upcoming podcast episodes! SO: Of course! Until next time. AM: Hear you soon! Commented [MAA3]: Presumably, they know what our website is? Either from the episode or series description? [outro music of Peter Kasin singing “O, California!”] [END OF TRANSCRIPT]