Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the third season of "Succession" on HBOMax. In this episode, we continue exploring the evolution of the adult siblings with a focus on different manifestations of a "wounded narcissist" in Kendall and Roman. We also spend time exploring the theme of the Roman and Shiv being drawn to romantic partners who are psychologically similar to their parents. We unpack various betrayals that occured throughout the season, culminating in Tom showing his true colors. We hope you enjoy!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.

[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. All right. Porsche, season three of succession. What a doozy.

[01:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[01:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow. Wow.

[01:05] Portia Pendleton: Watched it really fast. And then I and then I tried to kind of rewatch it again because there was so much good content and character development and character crumbling and character everything.

[01:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And some of the lines were so funny, but perfect. I think it was episode five where Logan has the UTI. I think that might be, like, my favorite episode of television. Ever.

[01:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, ever.

[01:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so funny. Like, I'm going to watch it again after this.

[01:33] Portia Pendleton: I need to I think you had sent me a text, and we're like, oh, my gosh, have you seen episode five yet? And I was like, no, I haven't, and just kind of, like, seeing all the different shenanigans take place. And even so funny as, like, yes, that he thinks that there's a cat underneath his seat, but then them having to keep running back and forth, giving Frank notes, he's like, stalling the shareholder, and they're just talking nonsense, and Greg's the one running back and forth with the notes.

[02:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: So funny.

[02:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know.

[02:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I want to watch it again because it's so ridiculous. I feel like that must have been a fun one to film. And I feel like they were owed that. They have a lot of intense scenes. It was nice to see this. And just as a plug, perfect depiction of how UTIs can affect someone's cognitive function. So I had no idea.

[02:25] Portia Pendleton: So please share.

[02:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why my gosh. So UTIs, urinary tract infections. As a psychiatrist, whenever you are evaluating, like, anyone, but especially an older person with rapid onset cognitive change, you check a UTI. Most of the time, it's honestly a UTI. It's some kind of infection. It really can affect them cognitively. I can't tell you how many times in training in the emergency room, we would get a consult for an 85 year old with, quote, unquote, new onset schizophrenia. Spoiler alert. That is not a thing. That is, like, less than 1% chance of someone getting schizophrenia for the first time at 85 years old. 99.99%.

[03:04] Portia Pendleton: It's a UTI. So is it the age?

[03:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I mean, when you're older, your system is just more fragile, like, more vulnerable to things. Oftentimes when you're older, you're on a lot of medications for, like, blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes, bladder issues, all these other things which all the medications can have side effects, they can interact, and your system is just more susceptible to an infection. And that's one of the ways it can present. So it's super important to keep that in mind if you have older family members and they start acting differently. I mean, it can also have things like paranoia or hallucinations. Like he displays the cat and all this stuff. I was just like, this is perfect. This is so perfect. And you just need to start some antibiotics. But I just thought that was so just what a funny detail. And I love that episode.

[04:00] Portia Pendleton: And that woman with the long, dark, dark brown or black hair and bangs.

[04:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who we see Logan, who's like her new secretary or something.

[04:08] Portia Pendleton: She knows, right? She had she was also like, is she a nurse? Because she seemed so quick and on it with the medications and having them and knowing the side effects. I was like, what is her role? So maybe she has maybe that's a requirement, his assistance or maybe like medical training.

[04:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, or maybe like, she's the only one who knows about his medical stuff.

[04:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, she said he didn't want anyone else to know.

[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And again, because I think this show is such a fascinating depiction of a narcissist aging where it's so threatening to your sense of self to be weak or vulnerable or inferior. And again, it's like, yes, he feels that way because of his personality traits, but also there is truth in that, like, in his role as head of this huge company that's, like, having a lot of financial issues, sort of having a hard time keeping up with the times and with streaming and all this stuff. He can't hear weak or vulnerable. We saw that in season one when he tries to go give a speech, and now we're seeing it here where he wants to, again, give a speech, but he's got a UT. And they're like, oh, you can't do that. Literally, I just loved how even then, the siblings are all like, well, dad has to agree with this. And so then Shiv calls off the deal, and then they're like, oh, no, dad is not in his but they.

[05:34] Portia Pendleton: Like, almost I was surprised at how long it took them to get there.

[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: To figure out that he wasn't okay.

[05:40] Portia Pendleton: It was like multiple things were happening. And I was like, hello. Hello. Who's going to pick it up? That he's acting very strangely. And Tom is the one who's like, I think there's something wrong with your dad.

[05:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's because Tom is removed enough where he can tolerate again, because it probably hasn't been safe for them to question their dad or be like, hey, dad, are you okay? You know what I mean? That's not like a safe thing to do. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, just a little plug UTIs. Can have significant cognitive effects, especially when you're older. Always get checked for UTI or make sure your family member is if they're older and have new onset cognitive changes. Like, we could save lives with this. PSA.

[06:27] Portia Pendleton: That was news for me.

[06:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, yes. Hooray hooray. This psychiatrist is so proud of that depiction. Anyway, getting away from urinary tract infections and back to season three. So quick plot recap. End of season two, I found myself, like, cheering from the balcony when Kendall did a total reverse and my jaw.

[06:52] Portia Pendleton: Was on the floor, right? Yeah.

[06:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I really didn't see it coming. I thought he was going to take the fall. He was going to be the blood sacrifice, as Logan says. How sick was that, too? In season two, they were all trying to decide who should be sacrificed.

[07:07] Portia Pendleton: I know, but at the end of.

[07:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: The day, I was like, I know it's going to be Kendall. Why are we even pretending? What's this?

[07:12] Portia Pendleton: I think he was waiting for Kendall.

[07:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: To step up or something. That's a good point. That's interesting to think about, too, now that in this season, tom stepped up to say he would take the fall to jail. It's interesting. I was so proud. And then I was like, why am I so proud?

[07:31] Portia Pendleton: This is all so and we both kind of think and agreed that it seemed like Logan, even though he was being royally screwed, he seemed proud of Kendall.

[07:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because remember, Kendall was like, just be real with me, dad. You are never going to give me the company. Right? And he's like, you're not a killer. You could do everything you want, but you're not a killer. And again, it's like Kendall will never be good enough for his dad no matter what. So in a weird way, even though Kendall's saying he's trying to do good, he's not. I think he's trying to win his dad's approval by being like his dad. And in a way, I feel like Logan respects it, but can't tolerate it because there's no room for him. Right?

[08:15] Portia Pendleton: Right. I think it has to be that way. It just fits the personality traits. We see Kendall then kind of doing more and more things in season three that just feel so different right. From season one. Kind of see his arc of turning just into seemingly more like grandiose delusional, detached from kind of a reality, in a way.

[08:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But I feel like that's probably who Kendall really is. I feel like in season one, it started off with him getting out of rehab. He was probably at his quote unquote best, like, trying really hard.

[08:53] Portia Pendleton: He was clean during season.

[08:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: He was clean. He was about to take the reins. He looked anxious a lot of the times, but I think he was doing the right thing. And now that hasn't gotten him anywhere. And in fact, his dad's like, you're never going to get the business because you're not a killer, right? So now he's like, fine, here you go. And I think he's sick of being this taking the fall for everything.

[09:20] Portia Pendleton: And I think Kendall, if we think of him receiving treatment and being his best self, I don't think, as we have said before, it's safe for him to be his best self. So I think he's coping right now with substances because that's honestly what's safer. Unless he wants to totally estrange himself from his family, get out the shares, be bought out, take his money and go somewhere else and do whatever and do the work. Right? Then have the therapy, then kind of reestablish himself, then do the skills if he thinks he needs it, maybe some medications. But it's like, until that happens, if it ever does, which I doubt, I.

[09:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Think this is his best this is how he survived. Yeah.

[10:01] Portia Pendleton: This is how he's like, okay, right.

[10:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And just what? Mixed messages from Logan. Right? Because it's like, okay, I go to rehab. I'm clean. I'm doing all the businessy stuff. I'm showing up on time. I'm responsible. You say you're going to give me the company, then you don't. Okay, that's confusing. Like, why not? What am I not doing? Oh, I'm not ruthless enough or vengeful enough or things like that. Okay, so now I'm going to do that and still not getting right. What is it, dad? What do you want from me?

[10:31] Portia Pendleton: And then I accidentally kill someone. And then you give me a hug and you call me your son and you bring me in, and then you abuse me and use me. And it's like he's reached this kind of breaking point where he's just I was himself in the best ability that he can be under substance use.

[10:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he feels so low and so insecure and so hopeless. I was worried this whole season that he was going to kill himself.

[10:55] Portia Pendleton: So we didn't talk about this, but.

[10:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: In season, I think it was two. I think I know where you're going.

[11:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So he's up on the roof. There's a couple of scenes where he's on the roof and just looking over. And then I think it's the end of season. It's the end of one of the seasons, not three, where he finally goes back up there and there's this long right, clear wall put up, and it's like, who did that watching him? How did they know.

[11:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: He'S thinking about it? I wonder, though, do we pick that up because we're therapists and stuff? Would the average person watching, seeing him look out, think like, I think you're thinking about suicide here.

[11:38] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I feel like some yeah, just because I mean, it seems intentional. Like, it seems like we're supposed to.

[11:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then they show you with the plexiglass or whatever it is. When I used to work for Yale, I remember actually, I didn't know this till I worked there, that in college. Mental health balconies and stuff like that are like a hot topic because they pose such a serious suicide risk for people being able to jump off the roof or jump off of this balcony or that balcony that people go around and measure the height and put up those plexiglass things and lock the doors to the roof and all these things that I never knew, but which make a lot of sense. So I don't know. It was interesting. Yeah, I definitely thought of that. And then the whole season, I was just like, again, he has narcissistic personality disorder. Kendall. I mean, they all do to some degree, but definitely Kendall. He has substance use disorder. Those co occur very frequently. He probably has some anxiety, which often co occurs. He might have depression, which often co occurs with all this stuff. His risk for suicide is so high.

[12:47] Portia Pendleton: Given all of that and all of the environmental triggers. Right. It doesn't seem like he sees his kids much. It seems like he is aware that there's a lot of people using him. He's totally estranged in a very dysfunctional way from his family, even though he.

[13:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Feels that would be, like, the healthiest thing. But he keeps getting ostracized, and it's like, with each season, it's more and more and more, and this season it's really intense, where Logan tells the secretary, block his number for good.

[13:17] Portia Pendleton: The birthday card.

[13:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: The birthday card where he's like, Take your shares and **** off. But then that was all a ruse. That was all manipulative, right? Because then finally, at their mom's wedding, kendall sits down with Logan and is like, okay, I want to take you up on this. I want to get bought out and leave. Right? And, like, you're saying, Portia. I was like, Why didn't he do this earlier? Just get out already. And then he won't let him. I know he won't.

[13:46] Portia Pendleton: I want to keep you close. Or what if I want to keep you close?

[13:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was, like, so chilling, that scene between them, and even with Logan making his grandson try the food because he thought Kendall maybe poisoned him, when really the kids thought that earlier in the season. With the donuts, it's just like that degree of mistrust and danger they grew up with that constantly.

[14:16] Portia Pendleton: That's real.

[14:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's real.

[14:17] Portia Pendleton: Had a huge reaction to the donuts, then kind of Roman kind of joked about it. They kind of, like, laughed off. None of them ate that.

[14:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: They were all ate them. They all knew.

[14:25] Portia Pendleton: And then they felt uncomfortable, and then they left and dispersed. It was just such a gesture that had huge implications.

[14:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Logan knows what he's doing. And again, I'm like, were they poisoned? We'll never know because no one ate them. But I wouldn't be surprised, would you?

[14:43] Portia Pendleton: No, I wouldn't be surprised.

[14:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm sure Logan has poisoned someone somewhere. Along the way. Why not have kids?

[14:49] Portia Pendleton: And even just something to like right. We're not talking about death, but we're talking about incapacitation. Whether that be having to be in the bathroom all day or like a date rape drug. Like you're just kind of out for a couple of hours.

[15:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hypno or something. Right, exactly. Yeah. That's chilling. Just chilling.

[15:13] Portia Pendleton: I thought Kendall kind of broke my heart. Or I felt so bad for him when he was at his birthday party. And Roman, I don't think meant to push him to the floor, but pushes him. I think Pet push him. Like, get goodbye done. And then Kendall falls in front of everyone and it just like where he had mentally, I was like, oh, my gosh. I just felt so sad for him.

[15:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[15:41] Portia Pendleton: Like, he's lost, he's empty, he's surrounded by all of these people, and he feels like he's looking for his kids gift.

[15:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: He didn't find it. I know. Yeah, I know.

[15:53] Portia Pendleton: That was hard to watch.

[15:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Kendall is just, like, such a compelling character. Again. I just am. Like, I hope Jeremy strong isn't therapy.

[16:01] Portia Pendleton: I know.

[16:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's married to a psychiatrist. We learned he's the method actor who's always in character. So I'm just really concerned for him doing this for this long. But I mean, you just really see Kendall unravel and all of that going on that show with Zway and then having this huge 40th birthday party, going to the park and inviting all these big fancy people. It's all so sad to me because.

[16:28] Portia Pendleton: He feels so, like, firing team after team after team lawyers.

[16:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: I loved when that lawyer asked him, like, do you think you're smarter than me? Because he does. He thinks he's smarter than he's not.

[16:40] Portia Pendleton: I thought his response was interesting. It was like a non response. But then he responds by firing her.

[16:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[16:45] Portia Pendleton: So that is the response. So he does think he's so disrespectful.

[16:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: When he was like, let's just try harder. Yeah, let's just try harder. And it's like, oh, my God, dude, you're the one who's not taking in any feedback.

[16:58] Portia Pendleton: So let's talk about the pool. He was kind of laying on there. So when we saw that, I was like, okay, we're staying here for a while. It was a long scene of seeing him float. And I was like I was like.

[17:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: It'S coming, it's coming.

[17:12] Portia Pendleton: What's going to happen? So it seems like he was on.

[17:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Substances in his hands. He's at least drinking. He probably has been on substances, right? Like, the whole time. I think it was intentional. I don't think it was an accident. I think especially because he's been so ostracized. And then they get to their mother's wedding and she's like, oh, you can't come to these things because Logan's going to be there.

[17:35] Portia Pendleton: And he's like, so he says your son can't come because of the ex husband who you hate?

[17:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she's like, Yep. Because the ex husband, who I hate, can do something right. And, like, my new husband wants those optics. I mean, like, how much more can Kendall be, like, kicked in the ground? How much more?

[17:58] Portia Pendleton: And I just couldn't think, too. It's like the gaslighting. You can tell, wanting to turn to this imaginary person, being like, do you hear you hearing this?

[18:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: This is crazy. Right?

[18:11] Portia Pendleton: And then, of course, this makes sense. It's 4 hours, Ken. It's not a big deal.

[18:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: All the minimization and dismissal, that happens a lot with Kendall. It happens a lot with Shiv, a lot with her. But he's so hopeless. It made me so sad that his kids were right there. That was the part where I was like, I don't know.

[18:34] Portia Pendleton: And Logan was, like, talking to the kids. He made some comment, like, I don't remember exactly, but he alluded to, like, you know, your dad's okay, right? It's fine. And I just thought that that was interesting.

[18:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why?

[18:55] Portia Pendleton: I feel like I couldn't tell the purpose. Are you saying that to them so that these kids don't become really screwed up because, again, you're related to them? Is there anything there? I feel like he has a little bit of sociopathic traits, but is there any normalcy of you're, this grandfather figure? They know their dad just, like, almost died.

[19:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Are you trying to come from Christ?

[19:25] Portia Pendleton: And I feel like he's not a Joe Goldberg. He's horrible and narcissistic, but that's where I was like, what is the purpose here? And then he immediately is kind of making fun of his grandson for that book.

[19:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's like but also, I can't remember the content of the book, but it seemed really on point with what had just happened with the dad. To me, there was a clear emotional connection. There was something about a parent leaving, but then coming back. I wish I and his sister was.

[19:51] Portia Pendleton: Like, oh, he likes to read it sometimes, and it's like it's probably, like, comforting for him because he's so upset.

[19:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But instead, he's like, so and so. Give me a new book with action. Right? Yeah, give me an action book. This is what boys should read. So I don't know. And then we just remember that was the little boy. He'd, like, punched his face, and then he asked to try his food. Yes. So it's like, I don't god, you.

[20:18] Portia Pendleton: Got to hope that they're getting some balance with rava.

[20:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I hope so, right?

[20:25] Portia Pendleton: Oh, and then the guinea pig or the rabbit?

[20:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: The rabbit again, because Kendall thinks he knows everything. He's like, Just feed the rabbit the bagel. Just feed the bagel. I think the rabbit, like, dies or gets really sick, and then the kids wrap the wrapping paper in a rabbit wrapping paper. So in that way, it's like, the kids are also, like, knocking him down.

[20:43] Portia Pendleton: And you can see Kendall's again another moment. The whole birthday party was really so sad. But when he's digging through all the gifts and it's so important that he finds the kids gift, and I get that. I feel that he wanted to open he probably wanted to text them or see what they got him that makes him feel good. They got me a gift.

[21:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it also highlights how disconnected he is from them that he doesn't even know. Right.

[21:10] Portia Pendleton: I think he was surprised that maybe they got him something and then find it. I was like, I think she wants.

[21:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: To find the gift. I think she said they made it for him, like, it was homemade. And Roman, a lot of times, is always talking about how, like, oh, Kendall can't find his kids again. Oh, where are the kids? And he is absent from their life. And then it's like, well, maybe that's what's best for them. I hate to say it, but maybe I'm hoping Rava's like, protecting them or shielding them somehow. She has to, because he can't do that for them.

[21:44] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[21:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he can't fully protect them from his dad. Yeah. Like, I just really feel for Kendall. And then near the end when he finally has that breakdown, which reminds us of the little breakdown he had in season two with Shiv where they don't get into the details, but there was, like, a moment of genuine connection between them where you're like, oh, I didn't know you guys were capable.

[22:13] Portia Pendleton: And Shiv seems so caught off guard at first, and it seemed like it took her a lot to be like, oh, no, this is real. I'm not being manipulated. This isn't fake. Someone's not trying to get one over on me. And then she hugs him, and they're in the office, I believe, and he's just, like, crying. And I think she doesn't know what to do with that.

[22:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: From season two.

[22:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And then she hugs him, and he's like, can you just take care of me? And she's like, okay. And I think she's really caught off guard and confused.

[22:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: He doesn't even know what that means. Yeah, I think he was crying to her about feeling like realizing all I'm worth is what I'm worth. That's it. And that's so true, unfortunately, and so sad. And around then, I was like, oh, no. I'm really worried about his safety. Really worried.

[23:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So I thought it was a nice moment. I was really rooting for the three of them. I thought that all of their responses were, like, spot on. I thought the acting like they were awkward because they don't know how to do emotions, trying to joke it off that he's not getting better. You know what I mean? So then she kind of puts his arm her hand on his shoulder. Roman kind of crouches down, and they're, like, in it.

[23:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And they're like they're getting closer to that physically, their proximity.

[23:35] Portia Pendleton: And then she gets also during this time of that, they're about to lose everything. So then she's getting a call. She has to walk away. They're like, Kendall, we need to we got to go. But I thought it was, like, a nice moment for the three of them. It seemed like they trauma bonded, and then they kind of go off to try to stop what's happening. But I want to rewatch that moment. I don't know why. I just thought it was nice. And I do too.

[24:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: I, like, want to, like, reanalyze it, you know, because I think you're right, I think. And again, it's like, kudos to the creators and the writers and the actors for getting that body language, the staging of how far away are the siblings? And they come close, and then they get pulled away, and it's so good. You are really depicting this so well. I'm just so impressed Kendall has, which.

[24:30] Portia Pendleton: Again, I thought just was so great, them walking away like Shiv. And shiv is still the most put together. Roman's hair, because it always kind of is a little disheveled. And then Kendall, we see him with all the dried, like, mud, right, like, on his pants, and he's just, like, kind of shuffling. And again, he just looks broken. He looks like a broken one.

[24:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: He does. He needs to be admitted to an inpatient psychiatric unit, like, yesterday. I'm just so worried for him. But of course, he gets taken to a hospital and cleared and goes home that day. Right. Because it's probably like, oh, I just fell asleep. I had too many mimosas or lemon cellos or whatever they were drinking. But I'm like, yeah, being intoxicated contributed, but I also think it tracks.

[25:17] Portia Pendleton: Oh, yeah, he's at risk.

[25:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Super.

[25:19] Portia Pendleton: And we saw that all the way through the beginning, the glancing down the building.

[25:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I'd be surprised if that was the first time this happened for him.

[25:30] Portia Pendleton: So, Roman, in season three, we had two responses.

[25:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I want to hear about yours.

[25:36] Portia Pendleton: So I liked him the least until I think this is the most, I haven't liked him in a season. So I still thought the moments with Jerry were, like, funny, interesting, ha ha, light. And then I really liked him making the decision to get in the car, to go to kind of to challenge Logan in the last episode. But I felt like his behavior in this season was really disgusting, and I know it has been before. It just really bothered me. I liked him the least overall. I will say, after watching the final episode, I like him again. I don't know that helped, but during all of the inner episodes, I really, really was upset with him, and I.

[26:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Had the opposite reaction, where I really liked him a lot better than Kendall. I don't know, I guess I felt like he was finally getting a chance. I think Roman probably has the greatest amount of genuine love for Logan. Of all the siblings, I don't think that's healthy. I think they have a very sadomasochistic bond with Logan, hurting him and Roman taking it as like a way of feeling close to him. But I feel like finally with Kendall so ostracized, it was like Roman finally got a chance to kind of shine. And I guess that started at the end of season two when he went overseas. And then there was that weird terrorist breakdown or hold down or whatever, and.

[27:16] Portia Pendleton: Carl was like, I just want you to know I'm having a panic attack.

[27:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's like, you would never be able to tell, but I am. When that happened, I was like, did Logan orchestrate this? Is he trying to keep Roman out of here? Is he trying to kill Roman? Is he trying to create some things to get press about, like, oh, Roman Roy almost dies and to take the heat off. But I don't know, I guess I felt like again, the businessy words go above my head a lot of the times. But it seemed like Logan was actually taking Roman's opinions into consideration, and that Roman, it turns out, has good instincts about things, like when he would go to try to make deals, like even that one overseas in season two. And they comes back and he's like, it's not going to happen. I feel like he has a good read on people. So then I started thinking like, is he the surprise smart one? Is he the one who all along should have been listened to and hasn't been? So I think that was the part where I was like and then the way he can talk to the president, he can talk to the fancy people and sort of move things along. I don't know, I guess I was like, good for you, Roman. Like the underdog coming through. But then he is like awful in so many other ways.

[28:31] Portia Pendleton: So the one thing about, I think borderline that I just was kind of recalling when I was thinking about Roman in season three is that your symptoms become more severe when you're activated by uncomfortable emotions or pressure or something that's intense. And I think him being now like the golden child with his dad is so much pressure, so much pressure. He doesn't want to give this up. He's also just like around, it seems like his dad a lot. And so I think that his Bpd traits are stronger where he is idolizing his dad so much. I think he always has. I think it's like we're seeing it so obviously here the devaluation of others, including Shiv, which I feel like they have this, again, kind of gross, but banter. That feels normal for them.

[29:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like a gross, like old boys club, but it's like their daughter and sister. So it's really gross, right?

[29:29] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it feels like for me, like Roman more so which again, I don't know why I'm saying this, because then I'm thinking back to season. One, and I disagree. But he crosses the line more. I felt like in season three with doing things and saying things that I was more disgusted with.

[29:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think maybe it was because in other seasons he'd done that with random people and now it's like his siblings sure. Like the way he treated Kendall at the birthday party was so gross. And shiv was shiv the whole time.

[29:59] Portia Pendleton: So that's when it came out, I think that the company was having Kendall's kids followed and talked to and Shiv was like, what? That's disgusting. And Roman was like, we knew. What do you mean? Yeah, that's what happens, right? There was this weird kind of rift or separation going on, that morality.

[30:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, we were talking about how in some ways it seemed like Kendall's becoming more and more like Logan, even like when they're wearing the exact same navy hat and these little details. But he's becoming like him with being so ruthless, like trying to make that deal with that investor, even when his dad's like, having a medical emergency. That's what his dad would do and wants him to do. But from the outside, that's so gross. Roman is also becoming like Logan in that way of just this really warped sense of morality, of any sense at all. And I think Shiv is really put off by it, but then she doesn't have a great moral compass either. So that's where it's all really interesting to me. What things each of the siblings are like, that's too far, but then the other one's like, no, that's too far. And you're like, it's been too far along, guys.

[31:14] Portia Pendleton: And we see. Just like I thought it was like a funny cultural kind of poking at when they are at the which I'm assuming because Shiv is a liberal and she went to the dark side, quote unquote. So they're at the Republican kind of small convention where all the rich people pick the nominees and Shiv is having a really hard time with one of the people that they're interested in or that Roman really likes because she's like, he's horrible, he's despicable, he's doing all these things and she's like drawing the line there.

[31:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, she doesn't want to get in the photo.

[31:47] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[31:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then Logan says to her, are you part of this family or not? And that is like such a veiled threat. Right. Because then you're going to be like.

[31:55] Portia Pendleton: Kendall, right, who's not here. Exactly.

[31:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: But then when they're trying to pick the nominee and the guy they were all thinking about, remember, they're like, he licks his lips a lot. Yeah, just these little things. And it's like, of course that's what they're worried about. Not the guy they end up going with who's, like, supports Nazis and it's really terrible. They're worried about the guy who licks his lips too much. But of course they are. They're narcissists, like, of course.

[32:22] Portia Pendleton: And it's really so clear that they just want someone who can do what they want to because that guy initially right? He's, like, call room service, right, for the coke. And then Roman tips off the other guy to go bring him a Coke. And he does. And then they're like, oh, he's in. And it's just like really?

[32:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. But that's what I mean with Roman, where he did tip off the guy. So that's where I feel like he was moving and shaken in a way that I was impressed by. And then I was like, Whoa, gross. Why am I impressed? Right? Like I was like, what's?

[33:02] Portia Pendleton: Kind of attractive?

[33:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, whoa. Whoa. Why am I maybe it felt like.

[33:08] Portia Pendleton: He'S having more control or he's, like, finally getting out from under he thinks he's getting out from under the thumb, but he's still under it.

[33:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Or, like, even more, I think. So.

[33:23] Portia Pendleton: It'S not because his Bpd treats were coming out more that I didn't like him in this episode. In this episode. I think maybe it's just how he treated Shiv, to be quite honest. Maybe that's what just really bothered me, because it was so I feel like, again, her moral compass is skewed. However, she has the hardest time kind of dealing with politics, some sexual assault stuff. She knows that she's being kind of used as, like, the face where she's a female, so she should go here again, like, morally gray. But then it's like, Kendall's kids. She's like, this is a line. Why are we crying?

[34:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: The family. Yeah, she'll go talk to the whistleblower and convince her not to testify. But the family there's something that seems like it should be off limits, whereas Roman that's not even off limits. Right. I'm so eager to hear your thoughts about the evolution of Roman and Jerry's relationship, if we want to call it that.

[34:23] Portia Pendleton: I was, like, happy for it as it was building. And part of it just because I thought it was, like, comedic relief, totally on the surface, like, not seeing the why or why this is problematic. But I think it was just, like, a funny side story. She almost seemed in this season to be more manipulative.

[34:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Jerry yeah.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton: So at first I thought it was kind of like, I don't know, maybe she's maybe she's into this a little interesting and likes a young guy and keeps her jumping.

[35:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I kept wondering, she has to have no wife because she's always floating around with them. But then it turns out she's got daughters.

[35:06] Portia Pendleton: I was like, and this boyfriend and boyfriend.

[35:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. I felt like Roman really did want to marry her, be in a relationship, and she's just like, Whoa, Roman, no.

[35:19] Portia Pendleton: Well, and we see him do this with a couple. With one other person or two, I think two other females that he is kind of like, in this relationship with in season one and two. He's like, well, **** it. Let's just get married. They do this and they're like, we've never had sex. No. Or, that's really way too fast. And again with Bpd, it's like, okay, idolizing them. He's impulsive. I think he gets his sense of self through others. I don't think he has a strong sense of self. I think so badly.

[35:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[35:52] Portia Pendleton: Security and attachment in a relationship, and he doesn't really get that.

[35:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, I think. Exactly. He wants it so badly, but he's also terrified of it. That's why I think legitimate intimacy is unsafe or feels unsafe to him. But he's like, let's just get married, and then I'll have you. You can't leave me. And yet the women he's saying that to aren't the type who just say, okay, yeah, right. They're the type who are like, well, this isn't actually cutting it for me. So in that way, he is attracting women who will then reject him.

[36:24] Portia Pendleton: Which is interesting because thinking of all the women out there who he may come across, who wouldn't just be like, yeah, I'll marry you 100%.

[36:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what I mean. But again, that's like, where the creators and writers and everyone involved in this show got it so right. Because he's so rejected by his mother and now he's being rejected by Jerry. He's been rejected by all these other people. He's always rejected by his dad. That's what he knows. He could find any number of girl who would like a willa. Exactly.

[36:57] Portia Pendleton: To be honest.

[36:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly.

[36:59] Portia Pendleton: But we kind of talked about how Jerry, for him, is maybe safe because she's unattainable, the age difference, the position in the company. So maybe he feels like she's safe. They poke fun, which we talked about last episode at how he wants to have sex with his mother, but it's.

[37:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Frequently it's, like, really legit and really obvious and out there. And he was the only one who was, like, really upset about the mom deciding to get married again and being really concerned about the prenup and everything. Right. So I think that's just really interesting.

[37:33] Portia Pendleton: So how did you react when you saw that he sent Logan the **** pic?

[37:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.

[37:41] Portia Pendleton: We saw it.

[37:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm going to say I loved the way all that played out, like, comedically. I don't think that's appropriate, but I was like, how did that mix up happen? Did he have Freudian? Was it like right, so someone texted him, well done, Roman. I thought it was Jerry texting him that.

[38:06] Portia Pendleton: So maybe he so badly wanted it to be Logan that that's why he responded. I mean, but then it got so.

[38:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Someone says, well done, Logan. We think it's coming from Jerry.

[38:16] Portia Pendleton: Well done, Roman.

[38:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sorry. Well done, Roman. Write the text. We think it's coming from Jerry. So then he texts back, and he's doing it right there in the boardroom, like, under the table, right there. Not going to the bath. Like, right there. There's still people milling around right and then all of a sudden it shows up on Logan's phone. So I was like, did he get the number mixed up or did he.

[38:35] Portia Pendleton: Just see him sliding down in his chair? He makes eye contact with his dad and kind of like, shrugs.

[38:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like he's like stripped away. And then when his dad calls him in and he's like, can you imagine just how humiliating and what are you, a sicko? And it's like, yeah, I don't know. He's like, it's just a **** pick, dad people do, like people do **** picks, whatever. And then when Shiv uses that opportunity to corner Jerry right. I was just like, oh, my God, this is all just but Jerry didn't seem phased.

[39:10] Portia Pendleton: No, because I don't think anything phases Jerry. I think that she is like a secret not secret. She's something.

[39:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's a sociopath or something with just like no feelings, I feel.

[39:30] Portia Pendleton: Yes, because I don't know how else or has developed a coping skill to be in here, like you said, for decades. That's not typical to survive. And she doesn't seem like Frank. Where Frank has put himself in positions or challenged Logan, it seems like that's why he was fired and brought on and brought back and then he joins Team Kendall. Jerry is never in that position. She's always the right hand. She always knows what to say. I feel like even in a sense, I've never seen Logan be horrible to her. He's yelled at her and carry it over here or whatever, telling her to f off. But they seem like the most professional they're able to have this professional relationship where I don't see him abuse her in the way he abuses Carl and Frank and everyone else.

[40:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, I agree with you. And I think I wonder if she is like his female equivalent in a way, because she's the general counsel, so she's like on their attorney, basically. So she knows everything. Right. It's not that she didn't know about Cruz. She didn't know about this. She knows everything. She has known everything for decades.

[40:41] Portia Pendleton: I don't think Logan have had sex. I don't get a roman about it. It seems like.

[40:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because she's like his age.

[40:52] Portia Pendleton: Exactly. That's the appropriate man.

[40:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. That's what I mean. That's why he hasn't right. He's always going for the younger one, so that's why he doesn't see her as that kind of object. And I bet she hasn't really disagreed with him or she has, like, stuck around. Right. Like, I think what's interesting to me about Logan and thinking about the kids and somewhere in there some character said this and I was like, that is exactly right. Where it's like Logan pits them all against each other to see who's going to stick around, I think, because he's so afraid of trust and loyalty and all that stuff. And then at the very end, when the kids are in the car, they're going I was like, yes.

[41:37] Portia Pendleton: You'Re uniting.

[41:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're going to take it over. You're going to throw him out. Like, why haven't you done this earlier, Roman? I was like, I think he's really going to be on board this time. Although I'm a little nervous the dad will get to him and then the dad doesn't get to him. I was, like, really proud of Roman, I think, for being able to with.

[41:54] Portia Pendleton: And you can see that happening in Roman's head.

[41:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, you might see the kind of mental battle oh, my God, so well. And then when they realize that somehow the dad has gone to their mom to get the shares, so now he doesn't need them, and their plan has been foiled. And then Roman goes to Jerry, and on his with her on his knees, right. Again, perfection. On his knees is like, please help us. Help us. And she says something like, what's in it for me? I exploded.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton: If Roman was listening, which I think he was, but if he was listening and actually had a view of a therapist, which he doesn't, she has said that to him throughout this entire time. Right. She said, every decision you make, you have to ask yourself, what's in it for me? She's, like, coaching him on this the entire time. She's talked about, we need boundaries for this. I feel like almost, in a way, it's like Roman didn't see any of that. He didn't want to. He couldn't idealizing her. Yeah. And so then she had the response that I don't think should have been surprising.

[43:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: But that's what they all do, right?

[43:08] Portia Pendleton: They keep coming back, they keep getting kicked. They go to their mom for support. It's like, over and over and over again. They think, these people who should right? She's like a mentor.

[43:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: They should, but they don't. Like, yes, you should be able to trust your parents or the people in the company. Again. I bet they've known Jerry since they were kids.

[43:30] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Forget Jerry carl.

[43:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Frank. When they when the adult kid I keep calling them kids, but when the sibling yeah. Walked in and saw all the flutter and chaos of, like, the dad, like, making the deal to get bought out. What betrayal. Yeah. What betrayal? Oh, my God. That really broke my heart. And then we see Tom, and I was like, I knew it, I knew it. I called him from the start, and interestingly, you didn't pick that up right away.

[44:11] Portia Pendleton: No, I didn't even pick it up on the episode. So we talked about this a little bit before we started recording, and I had literally no idea that Tom had anything to do with that. So I don't know what that says.

[44:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think you just really want to see the good in people. And I don't trust anyone, maybe. I don't know. It was like, in this whole season, right? It felt like the Roy family wanted to maintain their company and buy other companies to grow bigger and fix their debt situation, maybe get some private investments. Pick the next president who is like anti tech for a while, but he.

[44:51] Portia Pendleton: Seems so dumb, like, Logan, what are you doing?

[44:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, because he's like in the Dark.

[44:56] Portia Pendleton: Age, not on board. I know.

[44:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Until he realizes he's got to get on board. And then that Adrian Brody character, that shareholder who they fly out to, points it out.

[45:10] Portia Pendleton: So that's two people so him. And then the guy who is in.

[45:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Scarsgard yeah, he was in some vampire.

[45:17] Portia Pendleton: Show where everyone was freaking out because you saw him nude years ago. So then he also points out Logan's Fragility and just like where the company needs to grow and stuff like that. And I thought that that was really interesting just for Logan to hear two and the second guy, and I think more so, really successful. He knows that they're next. And I think he kind of comes to the conclusion that Waystar has to do something and they can't just stick to the status quo.

[45:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's sad because his kids have been telling him that, but I know in all different ways he can't hear it from them, I think, because, again, I think that would shatter his sense of self. But hearing it from these other white dudes who are successful on their own and have a stake or something, at least the Adrian Brody character had a stake in the company. This other guy didn't. Right. They wanted to maybe buy his company, then they were going to be co owners and then, oh, actually, we're going to sell somehow he could hear that, remember? And then when he asked Roman to leave, I was like, oh, no. But then Roman doesn't tell anyone.

[46:28] Portia Pendleton: I know. And Roman still acts, which again, it doesn't help him to do these things.

[46:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[46:34] Portia Pendleton: But he needs to have Logan's support and he needs to believe that he is Logan's right hand man. So he's not going to do what would honestly help him and benefit.

[46:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: They should have gotten plan in motion and called their mom then, right? They should have done all that. But I don't think he's capable. Right. In season one, he says at the wedding, like, I have borderline personality disorder or something, he's definitely demonstrating the traits. I don't think he can hold on to both of those things at the same time about his dad. He can't.

[47:06] Portia Pendleton: Right. It's either dad, right, is idealized, or he devalued and it shifts back and forth and it really just shifts at the last second when he's standing in the room. Yes, he makes the decision to get in the van with them. Yes, he makes the decision to go to the meeting, but he has to decide in front of his dad right. To align himself with his siblings.

[47:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow.

[47:25] Portia Pendleton: Logan asks Roman to have Kendall leave and Roman's like, no, right.

[47:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's like, finally you guys are united. Like, I wish they would have united earlier, but then we wouldn't get this great TV.

[47:36] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[47:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think we want to wrap up by talking about Shiv. And it's interesting, right? Because I feel like in all of our episodes so far about succession, we talk about her a little bit, but not a lot. And that's like right. In parallel with her role in this family.

[47:51] Portia Pendleton: Right.

[47:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: She's just also kind of forgotten, like, Connor not quite as much, but she's a girl and yeah. I don't know, I just am so curious. Like, what if she'd been a boy?

[48:02] Portia Pendleton: She plays the role of the girl in the family with all the boys in the patriarchy really well, most of.

[48:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: The time, but she is in a lot more skirts.

[48:14] Portia Pendleton: I think she purposely separates herself right. To do politics, because that way she is respected, she is in power, she is making decisions. And then, of course, she wants to be the CEO or the chairman of Wastar. But then when that seems like it's not happening, you just see her feel so much kind of thrown away more and more and more and more. And I think she can't understand why Roman, who again, has no experience doing anything, it seems like that's why Jerry was like, you need to do the management program. And Shiv has a career. Again, I see her as attending school. I see her as getting really good grades. I see her as just, like, finesse. I might have to come in and finesse.

[48:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm so shocked she doesn't have an eating disorder. Are you shocked?

[49:07] Portia Pendleton: I feel like she probably binges and purges in secret, and it's just like, not a big deal. It's just like what everybody does.

[49:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but I'm shocked. We haven't talked about yet. Maybe we'll get there, but I feel like she would, given the environment and everything we're talking about, but of course, right.

[49:25] Portia Pendleton: Like, such a female. And again, just because she is a female in the family, and I think it's just I don't know how they could have written her character better.

[49:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.

[49:35] Portia Pendleton: So we see her and Tom's relationship really interesting. I thought maybe you could speak to what you think it's like for Tom being in a relationship with I don't know if you would consider this accurate. Like a bigger narcissist. This is what I think. I think Tom has some stronger attachment abilities.

[50:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[50:02] Portia Pendleton: And Shiv does not. Whether or not he's narcissistic doesn't matter in the fact that he's still trying to attach to this person. Even if there's an ulterior motive, he still wants a connection. Like, he loves her. I think he wants a relationship, and I don't think she literally can have one.

[50:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

[50:18] Portia Pendleton: I think he does a really good job coming out.

[50:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think, with Tom, I always felt like there's something going on here and even in this season, some people would ask, why are you a Shiv? He kept getting on Greg's case, wanting to ask this girl out, that girl out. And he almost, like, coaching Greg, like, you got to go up. And that's kind of like what he did, right? So I still am dying to know how they met. I wonder if it was, like, in school or if it was, like, online dating, which I could also see, honestly.

[50:51] Portia Pendleton: Like, on what's it called? Raya.

[50:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that riah, whatever it is. But I think he does a really good job portraying himself as, like, I'm a good guy from the Midwest and, like, a humble guy and stuff like that, but I just don't think he is. From the beginning, when he saw Logan being incapacitated in the hospital and thinking, okay, now is the time to propose, I just think he wants to attach to Shiv because she is Shiv Roy. I don't think he would if she didn't have that name and that potential for power. He wants to be the head of it. And in what world does he have that right? All of these the three siblings are so grossly entitled in an experience that it's laughable. But in what world does Tom from Nowhere have a right and think that because he married Shiv now he's owed? Anytime she's making moves, he's like, well, where do I stand? Where do I stand? Where do I stand? And I think season two, I sort of softened on him a bit because I felt like, well, maybe he does really love her, and now she wants this open marriage, and he didn't want that. He's saying he loves her. I think he can say all the right things. I don't think he means that.

[52:03] Portia Pendleton: You think he can get her hurt? Because that's what I'm picking up on. I guess it's like, I feel sorry for him, or I feel more empathy for him when I feel like Shiv has hurt him.

[52:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, you see it in his eyes, like, when they were having sex or going that way, and they're talking dirty, and she says really cutting things, like, I don't love you, but that's why you love me, like, those sorts of things. And then the next day he says that it hurts him. I don't know yet. I think we need to watch season four and see how it unfolds, because I think part of me thinks he's hurt, but the other part of me thinks he's manipulating her to get what he wants. So I don't know yet. But then at least the way I interpreted the very end was all the siblings were shocked. Like, how did he get to mom? He knew we were coming. Like, how did he know? How did he know? Roman didn't tell anyone. Kendall didn't tell anyone. Shiv told Tom because she thought she could trust him. And then all of a sudden, here comes Tom.

[53:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And we see. So I remember now that you say that, like, then Tom meeting with Greg, right. And like, yes, tom saying these things. And so your interpretation is that Greg then called Logan.

[53:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Logan. So in the moment before we saw Tom at the end, I thought Tom was telling Greg about the siblings uniting and wanting him to come on that side, like, go with the siblings. And then Greg was like, can you tell me what this is about? And he's like, no. And I thought it was that. But now I think Tom told Greg to tip off Logan so then he could still be sort of distant from it and clean. But I think that's how Logan figured it out. I don't know if you remember, but when Shiv sees Tom walking in, logan pats his arm like, Good job.

[53:49] Portia Pendleton: Which he would never do.

[53:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: He would never do. Except when Tom said he would go to jail. Then he said, good job. You know what I mean?

[53:58] Portia Pendleton: And then when he called him son but he was having udi.

[54:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[54:01] Portia Pendleton: And then that's when Tom was like something.

[54:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's when something was like, I think he's ill, but in that way, I think what a fascinating depiction of Shiv basically marrying her dad and Roman, like.

[54:15] Portia Pendleton: Being attracted to his mom and Shiv marrying her dad, then ******** her.

[54:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And when Tom comes up to Shiv and you see her, like, shudder, I got chills. Just the way that Sarah Snook, the actress, portrayed it. I got chills.

[54:33] Portia Pendleton: I have to watch that last scene again. I feel like I didn't pick up on that.

[54:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so intense. And then the discussion between Shiv and her mom oh, my God.

[54:43] Portia Pendleton: That I think it was such helpful back story gives you just such a good look at the relationship, even for all of them, because it alludes to the fact that the mom left them for money or for the shares or for something like it was a business. They were a business transaction.

[54:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, exactly. They were objects even to the mom. And Shiv was like, Mom, I was ten.

[55:04] Portia Pendleton: Right?

[55:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was ten. And she's trying to say, like, oh, I had a really hard time watching that scene. But again, expertly written, someone on that cast must unfortunately have a mother like.

[55:16] Portia Pendleton: That to write it.

[55:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: That perfectly right. Whoever you are, like, I'm sorry, and I hope you have your own therapy.

[55:24] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I thought it was so sad. And also interesting how Shiv has been very firm on no kids. And then after talking with her mom, it's like, now she's considering having children.

[55:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: But only, like, freeze the Empress.

[55:38] Portia Pendleton: Tom seems very into it, which I don't see as him wanting kids. I think he wants, like, ties to Forever.

[55:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I totally agree. And he was even trying to impregnate her when he was about to go to prison. That's what I mean is I think he's a snake.

[55:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[55:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think it's starting to come out. And I don't think he's genuine. I don't think he actually wants to be with her or have her children and have a family. I think he wants the money and the power and the heirs.

[56:07] Portia Pendleton: Which is so sad for Shiv.

[56:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[56:10] Portia Pendleton: Because she thought because I think she thought that she had the power.

[56:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.

[56:15] Portia Pendleton: Like tricking her all time.

[56:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know.

[56:20] Portia Pendleton: But I also don't think that anyone else could be with her. Right. Someone else would have to have that ulterior motive in order to cope with.

[56:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: How she treats exactly.

[56:29] Portia Pendleton: Like she's not treating you well. Which I'm not making an excuse for. But then most years, Tom has stayed.

[56:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Like, why did he stay after the wedding night? It's because he wants the power, the money, all of it. Right. That's what he wants. And even, like, impregnating her so she can't cheat on him or leave him or whatever. Even if she does leave him, if he went to prison, he'd still be tied. He'd get child support or spousals or whatever. Oh, my gosh. It's chilling.

[57:00] Portia Pendleton: I think it's a good depiction of narcissism and Bpd of showing both sides of the person.

[57:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[57:08] Portia Pendleton: Because people who are narcissistic, people who have, of course, borderline we know this more of but can still get hurt. Still sad.

[57:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Very deeply. Very deeply.

[57:17] Portia Pendleton: I think we're used to just like narcissistic. Oh, they're a narcissist. Like, they're whole, they're jerks. They don't seem to have feelings. Like no, they're not sociopathic or psychopathic, where it's like there's no feelings. No, these are people who have been deeply wounded and continue to hurt others and continue to get hurt. We see them get wounded over and over and over again.

[57:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: So that's why it's like this, back.

[57:40] Portia Pendleton: And forth, like right. We hate them, we feel sorry for them. We hate them.

[57:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: We feel sorry. Exactly. I totally agree. And just such an expert portrayal in that. And the way they sort of give you more info about their childhoods, about their upbringing along the way, slowly, that helps you really see how they got there. Right. And that's always one of the most fascinating things when I'm watching shows. Like, this is like, how did you get to be that kind of person? And then as we wrap up, as we always do, we forget Connor. He's forgotten. But I just had to acknowledge that scene where he's like, I'm the first born son. I'm the oldest son. It's me. It's not you. It's like he's carried that rage with.

[58:21] Portia Pendleton: Him his whole life, and he can't so, interestingly enough, it's like Roman and Shiv in that moment, have the whatever. Whether you want to call it awareness, whether you want to call it intellectualism. But they are there because of Kendall, right. And they want him to get help with the suicide. And it's. Like, Connor cannot stay there. He makes it about himself. And people still don't say helpful things, but Connor has this huge reaction when they're trying to be there for Kendall because he almost killed himself, right.

[58:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: And trying to say, we love you. We are worried for you. Please get them up. But you're right. Connor can't stay there. And Connor is probably most threatened by Kendall because Kendall is the secondborn son, who then becomes, like, the first in line.

[59:12] Portia Pendleton: And we see Kendall's style shift right throughout season one to three. He's wearing a T shirt with kind of a necklace with a big emblem on it. We see him shave his head. We see the sunglasses, cool sunglasses. And I think I want to hop back onto Connor because Connor and he proposes to Willa. Then he also gets really mad at them. Right. Because no one said congratulations, and I hear that. Right. But first of all, you're paying her. And no one knew that she said yes because she didn't say yes.

[59:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he was like, everyone's looking willow. Can you at least pretend, like, through gritted teeth? It's just all growth.

[59:52] Portia Pendleton: And then the audacity that he has to believe that he can be the president, he's like, oh, well, we have 1%. You know what 1% is? A lot of people when we look at the US.

[01:00:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's a good chunk of people. But then when he is like, they're going to dig up stuff on, you willa remember. And basically using that to bully her into marrying him.

[01:00:19] Portia Pendleton: But there's something to the child.

[01:00:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

[01:00:23] Portia Pendleton: She can leave at any time.

[01:00:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. Just like Tom, just like Jerry, just like all of them, but they stay. So it is just this, like, moth to the flame kind of situation.

[01:00:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

[01:00:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, boy. Man, this show is amazing. It's really good. Really intense. Again, I hope they have therapists on set to cope with playing these characters. I'd be really worried if any of them are just sometimes they're like it's kind of actually me. So I'm just like being myself in this character. Like, I'd be very concerned about that.

[01:00:55] Portia Pendleton: I keep seeing Brian *** do some commercials now.

[01:00:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

[01:00:59] Portia Pendleton: I think it's like it's funny, like.

[01:01:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Alcohol commercial or something. I'm like that's spot on. Yeah.

[01:01:05] Portia Pendleton: But I really like what's his name? Culkin.

[01:01:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Kieran Colton.

[01:01:12] Portia Pendleton: I think he's, like, my favorite actor and character in the show as of season three.

[01:01:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. Again, I hate him. I love him.

[01:01:23] Portia Pendleton: I hate him. I love him. And let's think about Bpd, right?

[01:01:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's how people feel, 100%. But also thinking about Kieran Culkin personally was always in the shadow of Macaulay Culkin. So that's just fascinating. Like, is any of what he's bringing to the role tied to his personal experience? Like, unclear, but fascinating.

[01:01:43] Portia Pendleton: Fascinating.

[01:01:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: So if you could all just like our podcast and follow us and boost our numbers so we could someday interview him and ask him these hard hitting questions, that'd be awesome, because I just want to pick all their so make.

[01:01:57] Portia Pendleton: Sure if you haven't listened to some of our other episodes, we cover some movies and other TV shows. So scroll down to see if you've watched any of the things that we talk about. And make sure to join us over on TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast. We make some, I think, funny content over there that is different from that we talk about here and our instagram at Analyze Scripts.

[01:02:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, and we will see you next Monday. All right, bye. This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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