Today we continue the discussion around cybernetics and even dip into system dynamics. Phil Surdam again joins me to discuss not only Norbert Weiner, but the rest of the crew involved in the Macy conferences and some of the spectacular results that have emerged. We also draw in some more of the philosophical background hearing from Stuart Umpleby who is a pioneer of second order cybernetics and worked on the biological computer program. This is stuff to make your skin crawl and your head ich. Where the Terminator formed a motif in episode 16, the Matrix serves a similar function in episode 17. However, the twist in the story is that the Matrix asks us to question what is real and what is simply illusion. In this age of fake news we are immersed in a sense reality that can hardly be trust, but was this always the case? Neil Sanders, Mark Devlin, Jay Dyer and John Coleman have been on the scene for years discussing one institution that may be responsible for this sensory illusion we call reality – Tavistock. But were the Beatles really a creation of Tavistock? Did Paul McCartney get replaced following a tragic accident in 1967? I can only take you so far on this journey, you need to make the final choice… blue pill or red pill?