Taylor Way Talks

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

On the surface, entrepreneurship is a glamorous thing. To the untrained eye, it’s an endeavour that gives absolute independence and freedom. Surprisingly though, it’s not all it’s cut out to be. Today, Dawn speaks with a fellow entrepreneur and a powerhouse in her own right - Ally Stone. Ally and Dawn are here to debunk myths and bring light to the misconceptions about entrepreneurialism. Yet all the same, they look back on this crazy path they’ve been on with utmost gratitude. After all, being entrepreneurs helped forge them into the people they are today. .  

Who is this for…

For anyone who’s ever been curious about the life of an entrepreneur (along with the stuff they don’t tell you in workshops), this episode is for you. This is great for those wanting to get into entrepreneurship, this episode is a sobering look at an industry where perseverance is the true name of the game. Thanks to this episode, you may find out whether the hustle is for you! However, it always bears repeating that whatever job we may have, our worth as people should never be tied to our occupations. 

Guest Bio

Ally Stone has been a partner and leader in the hospitality industry since 2005. During that time, she was integral to developing 15 successful businesses and teams. As Director of Culture and Leadership Development,  Ally mastered a deep understanding of what it means to be truly connected as a leader and how that drives the success of any business. 

She bases her leadership style on what she has come to call “Inspired Leadership.” the approach elevates team thinking beyond everyday problems and obstacles, building instead on quality in group and individual connection for lasting effect. This has created a culture of engaged, emerging leaders in her organization that many admire and emulate to this day. 

Ally has worked with thousands of leaders from all levels of organizations. In 2022 Ally was awarded the  Transformational Leader Award by The Universal Women’s Network and recognized as The Most Inspiring  Leadership Development Company by A. I. International. Ally is also a certified Meditation Teacher, a Heart Math  Resilience Mentor, and an ICF Certified Coach working towards her Master's Certification.  

She is active and loves yoga, biking, hiking, and spending time with her two dogs.  

Guest Links

 

Email: [email protected]

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/allystone

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ally-stone-4010a560

Website: https://theinspiredleader.com/

Free Gift: https://mailchi.mp/b4f73314d4c7/leadership-manifesto

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

 

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today I get to talk to you, one of my dear friends, Ally Stone. If you don't know her, you need to. This woman is a powerhouse. She has been in the hospitality industry since 2005. She's developed over 15 different businesses and teams. She, there's not even words like, she is the leadership queen. We'll just put it that way. Um, has led massive teams. I'm talking like 750 people-style teams and does it from her heart, does it from her heart, but also with massive success. She is very big on helping people overcome everyday problems, obstacles, building instead of quality in group and individual connection for lasting effect. She's very big on culture, having engaged emerging leaders in organizations, and she's on stages. She's coaching, she's doing all the things these days. But in 2022, she was also awarded the Transformational Leader Award by the Universal Women's Network. Holy Monday mornings I'm talking too fast And was recognized as the most inspiring leadership development company by AI International. She's all the things. She is just all the things. And let's dive into today's amazing topic. Ally, welcome to the show. And what do you wish people were talking about? 

Ally Stone

Hey, Dawn. Uh, yeah. I'm excited to be here with you today. Oh, what do I wish people were talking about? I wish people were talking more about being an entrepreneur. Um, I think there's a myth out there that entrepreneurialism is the answer. And I think we can chat a lot about this. Um, and being an entrepreneur myself, you know, building and scaling a massive organization, understanding what that takes. Um, I see a lot of people kind of missing some of the understanding of what actually goes into that. So I thought that might be a fun conversation today. 

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely so and the other piece of that is not everyone's meant to be an entrepreneur. So let's start with your journey. So, you're like this badass boss, even though I hate those terms in really like, building scaling companies. 

Ally Stone

I kind of fell into that too. So it's a really interesting story because I believe we were 22 years old when we first became entrepreneurs, my husband and I buying into the original Joes franchise. So uh, it was quite the adventure. Uh, I always say I have an MBA in business, but just kind of like, you know, the Hard knocks school of life and scaling and growing business over 17 years. I remember there were points, uh, through that journey where my husband and I would look at each other, like, almost panicked and be like, is one of us going to go to school? Somebody needs to get an MBA. But there was no time for that, right? Um, so it was just, we were just in and, you know, original Joes when we first bought our first shareholder in the Terwilliger location over on the South side, close to both of our homes. Um, there was four, I believe, four original Joes at the time. And by the time we were done with the franchise and I was done, uh, they had 98 locations in Western Canada, and we had 17 under our organizational belt. So, uh, it was a wild, wild journey. Yeah, but also so grateful for it. 

Dawn Taylor

So right now to date, how many do you still own? 

Ally Stone

So there's 12 in our partnership group and there's a few different partners in there. So at this point I don't work with or in Original Joe's anymore. So I'm just a silent partner. Um, and yeah, there's a new group running it, uh, which have been amazing. I think that, um, you know, maybe one day we moved to sell it. I don't know, maybe there's an opportunity for somebody new to kind of do what my husband and I did and go through the process of kind of building an organization or jumping into an organization again. So, I'm all about opportunity for people, too. But we are talking about entrepreneurialships, not for everybody. 

Dawn Taylor

And that's I love that. And having been in the restaurant industry for a lot of years myself and not having thrived at it, right, did amazing. Owning a single restaurant but then in the franchise world did not thrive like that was not my jam. I know how much work that is and how intense and insane that is. So let's talk about hey, both of us are a little crazy, and I'm saying that in like, the best way. Not like we need to be, like, medicated crazy, but, like, we're both risk takers. We both are okay with that. We're both resilient. We both are the type that are like, we'll figure it out. We'll just go with it and we'll figure it out. And we don't want a lot to hold us back. But I remember a conversation. It was probably four years ago. It was in Covid. And my husband, he's like, I think I'm going to start a company. And I was like, oh, okay. And I've always been the entrepreneur in our house. And he's always had like the more stable job. And I remember sitting with him and if he's listening to this, he's going to laugh because he knows exactly where this is going. But I was like, do you even know what all goes into running your own company? And it was in an area where he had massive expertise. He easily could have done it. He could have done the work. But I was like, no, no, no, you could manage. I don't think you understand the ownership piece. And he was like, what? And I said, well, for every hour that you're out there working in the business, you probably need 1 to 2 working on the business. And he's like what. And I said so not only are you going to have to like go run the piece of equipment, I said but you're going to have to figure out like the financing to buy it. And where's the money coming from. And all the insurance and the licensing and the contracts and the bookkeeping and the banking and the marketing and the bonding and and I started just like mapping all this out on a whiteboard for him. And I was like. Who's dealing with all of that? Because you're on site 12 hours a day, for ten hours a day. And I said at first, you can't afford to hire a staff to do all those things. So are you going to do all that? And in an amazing husband way, he's like, well, no, you and your team can help with that. And I was like, no, no they can't. Like, no, no, I'm not running your company for you when I have my own and my own team. 

Ally Stone

Yeah. It's so true though. We totally, if you have traditionally worked for other people and let's, let's just, you know, rip the Band-Aid off, it's not a bad thing to work for somebody else if that's where your heart lies. Yeah. If you're happy doing that, if you love contributing to a team, if you love the security and the stability that comes with working for an organization, working for somebody else, great, right? You don't have to be an entrepreneur. But what the point you're making is so true, because I might even say it's higher the working on the business, especially to get it started and even to get to work in the business, you have to figure out how to market it, how how to get people to come to you before you can even do the in the business part. There is so much on the business part. Right? 

Dawn Taylor

Well, and it was just an interesting moment because like I have worked with businesses for years like you have, we do very, very different things within working with companies. But, like, I have talked to business owners for years, and I know there's somewhere I've been like, I think you need to not own a company. And they're like, what do you mean? Or someone who's wanting to start a company? And I'm like, if you don't have this innate drive and motivation and self, you have to be a self propelled machine. Right. 

Ally Stone

It's not always easy like even you and I, I will openly admit I struggle with that some days. So I'm not going to make that assumption for you. But some days I get up and I'm like oh I want to do this today. But you have to, right? Once you take that leap, you have to or nothing happens. 

Dawn Taylor

You totally do. And I think there's this idea out there from the outside. Right. And and with that, to finish off the conversation with my husband, we had this conversation and he realized he really wanted nothing to do with that. He wanted to go to work and come home. He didn't want to think about it evenings, weekends. He didn't want to have to put all the extra hours in the hustle. And have that instability. And I remember the conversation vividly, and I looked at him and I said, you know that that's okay, right? And he said, what do you mean? And I'm like, everyone's idea of what they need for structure and security, or what their priorities are or or what drives them is totally different. Right. Some people need community in a different way. They need coworkers. They need to leave their house. They need that. They need the structure of the paycheck every other Friday because they can't handle not getting that paycheck every other Friday. Right. Like to have to work so hard for it and hustle so hard for it. And it was a very interesting moment for him, of realizing what all goes into running my company and having team members and having all of that and, you know, doing the management I do. And like, with you. Right. Like people from the outside watching can they totally could just be like, oh, they make it look so easy. And it's like, oh gosh, 

Ally Stone

I've been getting that a lot lately. Like people are like, oh my gosh, you there's you're having so much success with the inspired leader. It looks so amazing. And I'm like, oh my God. I'm like never sleeping. It's like intense. Like growth is just, it's great. But it's also super draining and I'm just exhausted and trying everything to fill my cup and take care of myself so that I don't burn out in the process. Right. It's wild. It's a wild adventure. 

Dawn Taylor

It totally is. No, I wish that more people talked like this. I was with a friend yesterday. We were buying clothes. She needed something for doing a presentation that she's doing. And I said, here, let's go to one of my favorite stores, and I'm going to help you put some outfits together, because she struggles with that and we're finding stuff. And the manager came over and offered me a job. And I was like, yeah, I might bring you my resume. And my friends liked me. She's like, sorry, you're going to get a job at a clothing store for $15 an hour. Like, I do. I'm like. And she just cracked up laughing. And I was like, yeah, I actually might. And she went, what? And I looked at the woman. I was like, could I just do like four hours a week? And she went, yeah, if that's all you want. She's like, you 100% could. And I was like, it’d be fun. It would be fun. That's entrepreneurialism. I think I might, you know, what is this is my announcement. You might see me in a clothing store in South Bend to comment in the future. But I was talking to her as we walked out and we went for lunch after. And I said, you know, there's a lonely aspect to being an entrepreneur that people don't see. Yes. We're surrounded by people. Yes, we're surrounded by clients. Yes, we're surrounded in networking rooms. Yes, we're surrounded by, you know, other professionals in similar realms or worlds as us. But it's really lonely often. Yeah. And there's a pressure attached to it. Right. There is a pressure attached to the work that we do. And I don't know if you find that the same. It's like when you're networking, there's like this in the back of your mind. You're constantly like collaborations and selling and clients and you're in work mode. So a lot of your peopling is not the same as if you were just going to an office and hanging out with people. And we were talking about it and I said, you know what I loved? And she goes, what? And I said, I just got to help random strangers, and you feel absolutely beautiful in their bodies and help them figure out how to structure clothes and do all these things on a plus sized body that they never would have gotten. And I got to help people in a totally different way where there was like zero pressure. And I just got to love on people. And I said, and it wasn't exhausting. Like it was actually just really fun. And, you know, to see someone standing there with tears in their eyes because they felt beautiful in what they're wearing or like I was like, I kind of like that. I kind of want that. I kind of want this, like, get out of my house for, you know, eight hours a week or whatever it is, and then I get 50% off clothes. So it's just gonna be super fun. 

Ally Stone

That's your entrepreneurial ism there because, you know, you can really capitalize on the the clothes. You get first dibs on everything new that comes in. It's amazing. 

Dawn Taylor

That could be my clothing budget. I know I'm laughing at myself saying it, but I really think that these are the parts and pieces that no one thinks about. Mhm. 

Ally Stone

Circling back I think, I think that um I think this is a good way to describe it. Entrepreneurialism is shown in this bright beautiful light right now. Like you're riding around on your motorcycle and your Ferrari and you're getting on your tail. You're traveling the world. I have no time to travel right now. 

Dawn Taylor

Like it's not a thing. 

Ally Stone 

If I was still working with Original Joe’s, for sure, I'd be spending a month in Hawaii. Like I do a lot of things, uh, to create this business and to create this, this life for myself. Right. And so you have to, one word in that as you were talking, it was really coming up for me was, uh, resilience. Right. And so I often think about that. I think for me, resilience used to mean actually just posted about this this morning, something like this all is coming up right now. Um, resilience for me used to mean pushing through the hard stuff, getting through. And to me, the evolution of that now means like being with the hard stuff, being present and open to get, not even to, to be with, to move with the hard stuff as it shifts and changes in your life. And if you're not able to be resilient, if resiliency is a tough thing for you, entrepreneurialism is going to be very hard because there are a lot of like on the daily, right, things come up and you're like, oh shit, how am I going to get through that? Or like total pivot, right. And that's just like the reality of it. And so if you're not able to embrace the challenges, the things that come up, the obstacles that get in the way and have the mindset to be like, okay, what does it take to get around this? How do I keep moving forward? That's when I see entrepreneurs like I use the term cut and run or be like, okay, I just can't do this and throw their hands up in the air. And I also find that really sad when that happens too. 

Dawn Taylor

I think it is. I have often looked at business centres I've seen over the years and wondered, how did nobody in their life ever be like, hey, is this actually what you're meant to be doing? Is this what you need right now? And there have been times I was talking to a friend a few years ago and it was like, so go get a job. And she was like, what? I'm like, the J word is not actually a sin. It's not less than. It's not any of those things. It really isn't. But I do think in this world of toxic positivity and social media and like you said, this laptop lifestyle mentality that everybody has in this dream, nobody's being realistic. Nobody's talking about the fact that when you turn into an entrepreneur it might shift your friend group. Because people around you aren't going to understand that you don't have as much time. That it might, that you're going to outgrow some people in your life at times, and that that can be very, very hard, that you are going to be very lonely, that you're really pushing uphill a lot of the time. And I know people might be listening to this and being like, oh, but if it's an alignment, it's all going to flow. No, that's not realistic. That's not realistic. That's not what running a business is. That's not what running a business is. And I've owned many over the years like you. Right. Like we've both owned a lot of companies and dealt with a lot of staff and a lot of things. And some days are just actually hard. I was talking to a group of young entrepreneurs, like, 20 years younger than me, last week at a networking event, and one of the guys looked at me and he goes, do you just ever have a day? And I said, were my resume’s up on my laptop? And I'm on Indeed searching for a job. And he looked at me and he goes, are you serious? And I was like, tell me, an entrepreneur that hasn't done that in the last week, and I'm going to call them a flat out liar. And he starts laughing. And I was like, I don't know, an entrepreneur. If they were being brutally honest, that has not had a moment in the last week or the last month where they've been like, I could just get a job. Do you know how much money I can make with a salary? I'd have guaranteed paid holidays? 

Ally Stone

Oh my gosh, I get the LinkedIn jobs, you know, because they're like and I'm like, oh, that's really interesting. But then also because I'm an entrepreneur, I think about it and I think, oh yeah, that's not actually what I want for my life. That's actually out of alignment for me. And so there's kind of two camps here. Right. And I think what we're kind of playing around with in this conversation is like, if you're listening to this today and maybe you are an entrepreneur or you have the j-o-b or whatever camp you're in, you know, ask yourself if you feel authentic, if you feel we use the word alignment, if you feel whole in what you're doing every day, and if you're feeling misaligned or disconnected, you know, you need to first ask yourself if that's about you. Um, but maybe it's something, maybe there's something in what you're doing that's not, like fulfilling a piece of your life's purpose or your reason for being here. And if that's the case, well, number one, you could look for another job. Number two, you could think about a business, but still take the time to really understand what you want before you make those jumps, not just because of, you know, the social media or this, like, idea of this perfect life, right? Because it actually doesn't exist in either scenario. And I think that's important to point out. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay. Thank you for that because it's it's so true. And also there's times in life where we actually need the structure and security. Where it might not be that it's about what makes us happier or what feeds our hearts or whatever, but it's like, no, right now I just need to pay my damn bills. Mhm. And that's beautiful. There's nothing wrong with that. It is so interesting. We live in such an entrepreneurial city, you and I. So Ally and I live in the same city. And I heard a statistic a few years ago that was saying, like, there's more entrepreneurs in Edmonton than anywhere else in North America per capita. 

Ally Stone

I didn't know that. Wow. 

Dawn Taylor

That we're known as the Hustle City where, like, everybody has a side hustle, everybody has a business, everybody has something going on. And I think that that leads to this belief that we all need to have something going on, right? 

Ally Stone

Yeah. It's the herd mentality maybe I don't know. And you see your neighbor on both sides. It has a side hustle and it's running a business and is making good money. You start to say to yourself, well, why can't I do that? Right. But the real question is, do you actually want to do that? 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. Well and do we? Right. Like, do we want to do it? I've always said like the day I wake up and I'm like, no, no, I think I'm good. I'll just go get a job. Like I have no issues with that at all. And I've had times in my life where there was a time quite a few years back, my husband was super, super sick and I had a full time job at an accounting firm, and then I owned a bookkeeping company on this side, and I was doing books for a couple companies, and then I was also like going to a bar from 4 to 8 every morning, and they'd lock me in the safe because it was a dangerous place. And Grand Prairie. Yay. And they, I literally sit there and do books, like I had multiple things on the go, because at that point in my life, it was just, how do I survive? 

Ally Stone

For sure. 

Dawn TaylorHow do I survive this moment? How do I get through this moment? And I wonder if we dropped our egos, if we dropped our egos and stopped attaching our worth to our companies, our worth to our jobs, our entire identity to these things. If we wouldn't have all the companies shutting down, we wouldn't have all of that going down because we'd have more people going, hey, yeah, maybe I do need to partner with someone. Maybe I do need to walk away from this, or shift or pivot this, or do this completely different. Or hey, maybe I do need a part time side hustle right now because my business isn't where I want it to be. And that's okay. 

Ally Stone

Yeah. And it's like not getting caught up in this dream. Like that was what was going through my head as you were talking there. Like, because we get caught up in this like dream and even if it's the job and the job isn't paying us what we need, and maybe again, we need that side hustle, um, this alternate reality facing reality and being like, okay, this is what's actually happening around me right now. This is where we're at. This is where we're at financially. This is what I project into the future. Make a plan around it. I always say, like, when I'm working with clients, I'm always like, you have the power to choose what you want in your life. I think the biggest and saddest thing we ever do is give our power away to someone or something else because of a belief or an ideology or something we see out there, like we actually get to create our realities. Now that is some of the power of entrepreneurialism too, from my perspective. But that is just my perspective, and I don't expect other people to see the world the same way I do. Right? 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, not at all. I was I was talking to a client of the day, and he's irritated because he's making just over minimum wage, doing labor work. And I went on Indeed. And like in five minutes, I was like, hey, dude, this other job, it's like five minutes down the road from you because it's not a pretty job, okay? Like it's an ugly job, but it's also easier physically on your body. Still doing labor work. I was like, is paying $47 an hour? Yeah, because they can't find people. Yeah. And he was like, oh. It's like, so stop bitching and just go apply. And he started laughing at me and he goes, seriously? And I forget whose statement it was, but it's like you're not a tree - move. You're not. If you and I went into a room full of entrepreneurs from the 20 year olds that are just starting out and in the early stages of the big dream, right. And bumping up against the first obstacles because we both have been those people and up. If we were to ask people like, do you actually love owning a company? Or do you just love what you do? How many people just love what they're doing and hate the actual owning a business piece of it. 

Ally Stone

Quite a high percentage. I mean I work with those people. I always talk about getting back to doing what we love and understanding. Like, did you start this business because it was something that was going to enhance your life and make your life better and is there perspective in that? Is that something that's potential, in my words, aren't coming out right? Is that something that's possible in the future or is it not? And like you just keep saying like it's okay. Right. But it comes back to like coming back to reality and not living in this place of, uh. It's not like, okay, so I'm on the fence about this because we have to have a sense of optimism, a sense of belief, a sense of hope, a sense of faith that things will work and happen. But then there's also this piece of reality that we need to bounce back on and be like, okay, like so I really want to take the inspired leader to this vision. But reality, my current reality is here. And so if I want to take it there, what is it going to take? And I always talk about reverse engineering or business. I don't know if you do that with clients, but I think it's such a powerful process when we can be like, okay, what's the vision, now let's work backwards. What's it actually going to take to get there? Because I think we don't often sit down and do that work. Um, and I think when the entrepreneurs are sitting around saying they hate their business, it's because they have no idea what the potential steps might be to actually see that vision come to reality. Um, I'm doing a mastermind group down in the States right now with these women, and they're new entrepreneurs. And the first question I say is, do you have a business plan? 99% no. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, we need to talk. Because really, like if you don't have an idea of where you're going, how are you ever going to actualize those steps to get there? You're just going to be flopping around making decisions, hoping you make the next best right decision, instead of making a strategic decision to move forward more into alignment as to where you want to build this business. And this is probably when we see entrepreneurs cut and run, because they're so sick of taking steps that don't produce any forward momentum for their business, right? Um, but it does come down to a lack of strategy and a plan, which I know is your specialty. 

Dawn Taylor

Well, and it's it's funny, years ago, I was sitting there, my husband and I were talking, and I was like, I don't have a sellable business. And he's like, no, you don't. And for all the coaches out there, sorry, you guys, you don't have a sellable business. You don't. It's not a thing. You've created a job for yourself. Congratulations. You don't have a sellable business. So if this is your retirement plan, you need to start investing in other ways. Not trying to be harsh, but let's be perfectly blunt about it. And I was like, so instead of investing more in specific areas of my company, I was like, I want to invest outside of my company in a totally different way. And we got some opportunities to like, so I own like Basin Rovers that I rent out to oilfield companies. My insurance company is always like, sorry, what? I think that's a different policy that doesn't go under life coaching. And I'm like, nope, no it doesn't. I need an equipment policy. But it was looking at it totally different because when I looked at my company, I was like, how do I build up assets in my company that I can use to sell at a later date, that A will either build a residual income, or B will be an asset that I could sell at a later date. That's not going to lose its value. Right. That was part of my business plan, that is part of my business plan, right? I don't look at this company. The Taylor Way is not my exit strategy. Right. So the income that comes from it needs to go into something that can be that retirement exit strategy. 

Ally Stone

Absolutely. 

Dawn Taylor

And I think even just that it's not that I'm not a dreamer or I'm not a believer or I'm not a big thinker or whatever, but it's also acknowledging I'm very realistic on my capacity. Right. With what I can mentally, emotionally, physically handle. Of the work that I do. Of what time I'm willing to put into it, of the fact that I demand that I get at least four weeks, a year of paid holidays. Right? Because I'm like, if I'm not getting vacation time, then I am not doing this right. Then I should just go have a job where someone will pay me to take holidays every year. But it's really figuring that out. And then what you have to do to get there. And you're now responsible for that as an entrepreneur. So let's make the correlation back because we're talking about the difference between the job. Right. 

Ally Stone

So, if you have a job your employer might be investing for you. You can probably, you know all different things right. Like employee share whatever. Right. All of these things benefits, whatever. Um, you don't that doesn't exist for you when you become an entrepreneur. So you actually, when we talk about working, uh, on the business, there's a whole other arm that people often don't even think about. I was at a conference a couple of weekends ago, and uh, Megan Keltner was speaking. She's Canadian. I've always really looked up to her. She's built really incredible businesses. She lives out in Ontario. I believe it's the Academy of Culinary Nutrition, and I've seen people take the program and come out. And she has a business model. She teaches them on the other side. And I've seen people be really successful, and they've always been like, what is she teaching these young people coming out to run this business, right. And so anyway, she does this keynote, she comes on the stage, she says, I, I ran my business for 16 years, and this year, I shut it down. I made enough money to retire. And I'm 44 years old. And I was like, okay, you have my attention. And so she started talking about how all through all of the years of building that business, she did not care. I mean, it was obviously important what her, uh, like net was, but what she was more concerned with was what was she investing and what was she banking? And I was like, oh, that's so powerful. If we started to think that way, even if you only had, let's say, a $500,000 a year as opposed to $1 million a year, but you banked, you know, 60% of that 5000, and you had $1 million a year, and you only banked, you know, 10%. Okay. Well, at the end of the day, you're not any further ahead. Right? So it's all about the strategy and the way we're thinking about running our business. And again, nobody is making these decisions for you. And so you have to have the ability to be like this is what needs to happen. And then make yourself do it. Don't get all excited when the money comes in the bank and be like-

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, but that's the hard part. And that's the part that no one talks about. Yeah, I remember calling. I remember calling my husband one time from bed and he was in the kitchen making coffee, and I was like, I can't get ahold of Dawn. Can you tell her I'm sick today? And I were like, pretend that I was like, phoning in sick for my old job. And he just started laughing and he was like, seriously, Dawn, damn it, I just want a boss. I can call in sick to one, right? Well, we just won this once. Like, just call in sick. Yeah. Mental health day. Right. And he just laughed and he's like, so move all your stuff and have a sick day. Yeah, that's one of those things that I've really learned how to prioritize over the years. And honestly, from 20 some years of owning companies and burning out hard multiple times and everything else is when I look at my calendar some of the days, said, man, I wish I could take a vacation. I wish I could take a day off, but it's just not feasible. And I was like, if you don't, your body will for you. And I was a young entrepreneur and I said if you don't learn to prioritize taking a day once in a while and not feeling guilty at taking a day off. Your body's going to learn how to take time off for you. You're just going to get really sick. 

Ally Stone

No choice. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. And he kind of just like, looked to me with my eyes and I said, but think about it. I said, even in a job, you're, they're like, they're forced legally to give you a lunch hour. Yeah. They're forced to give you coffees. They can only work you so many hours a week. They have to legally give you time off. So what makes this entrepreneur is that like, if you can't at least get like 50% of that happening, why are we entrepreneurs? 

Ally Stone

Yeah, for sure. And it's part of the slog. Right. So we talked about all the hours of working on the business versus in the business. And it's like where do you find balance and all of that? Okay. So I want to ask you a question because you popped in with the questions. So, you know we're having this conversation around entrepreneurialism. Should you be an entrepreneur, should you not? If somebody's listening to this and they're thinking about being an entrepreneur today. What would you say to them? What would you tell them to look at before making that big life decision to become one. 

Dawn Taylor

So, I'd ask them immediately what is their level of security they need. So on a scale of 1 to 10 like what. Where was their hustle factor? So, if I'm like hey you need to come up with $5,000 in a week, do you know how you could do that. Do you have any ideas on how you could figure that out or how you could do that? And that question alone would tell me a lot. Because if they're like, uh, I have no idea, then you should really pause and think about it. And don't just jump in. But also I would say look at what structure and security you need to have in advance. Because if we are living in just a scared place and you're going into being an entrepreneur in a place of fear, you're never going to thrive because you're terrified. So, what is your level of structure and security you need? One being I absolutely need none, because I can fly by the seat of my pants and always figure it out. And if I have to, like, go pick bottles and ditches to pay my bills, I'm fine with that because I have no shame. Ten, being I need to have like six months of money in a bank account at all times to make sure that I can pay my bills, that I feel safe, that I feel secure, and I panic. If there isn't a certain amount in my bank account, you probably need to be like a 4 or less to be an entrepreneur. Or even a 3 or less because there's so many parts of it. Very few entrepreneurs thrive in their first business. Often we have to do 2 or 3 or 4, or you have multiples going on, or there's 100 different things at one time. And what is your risk, right? It’s that risk-reward factor you pay with. And the other big one is like how well do you deal with shame and feeling like a failure? Yes. Right. Like or the. No. I always talk about the no. Because you're going to get a lot of no's 100%. How well do you deal with that? Yeah, right. Can you walk into a coffee shop and ask someone embarrassing questions and not care? Yeah. Could you walk through them all dancing and singing at the top of your lungs and not actually give a shit if someone's looking at you funny? Because if you can handle all those things, you probably could make a pretty decent entrepreneur. Yeah, but if you are so scared that you're going to fail, or so scared that someone's going to look at you funny, or so scared that someone's going to judge you. You're not setting yourself up for success by being an entrepreneur. 

Ally Stone

You're not. 

Dawn Taylor

And how well do you ask for help? How well do you ask for help? Are you okay with somebody giving you feedback? Are you okay going to someone and being like, help. I don't know how to do this. And I'm not thriving at this. Like, I always laugh that I know what I'm good at and I know my lane, but my gosh, am I really good at being like, I suck at this. I need support, like no shame, like I'm like that. That's just actually not my forte. 

Ally Stone

Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. And yeah, a couple things are coming up for me in that too, and they're very similar. I just frame them a little differently. I always say there's at least a two year window where you don't know what the F is going to happen. 

Dawn Taylor

No idea. 

Ally Stone

What is your capacity to navigate that to your window where you have no idea? Like no idea. Yeah, right. And then the other thing too is like you were talking about the dancing through the mall and whatever, and it's like a no or like the feeling silly or the shame when that comes in. What it does is it stops you in your tracks as an entrepreneur, if you can't navigate it, and if you cannot navigate it, when you stop, your business stops. And so it becomes this start. Stop this, like, gas pedal off, pedal on pedal. And it's really challenging for entrepreneurs. So it's like, I hate the word thicker skin, but it's like building a bit of a thicker skin and being like, it's okay, right? Like, I'm not everybody's cup of tea and I'm not going to be. And that is reality. I got a pretty hard no last week on something. Um, there was a woman that was referred to me. So I run like a higher level women's leadership mastermind group. It's a year-long commitment. It's a bigger commitment. And so normally, I don't even advertise this. Um, it's usually through a referral or whatever somebody comes in. Um, and so I had this conversation with this woman, and I could, I could tell she wasn't the right fit, and that was okay. Um, but by the end of the conversation, it was just she was just like, oh, yeah, no, it's a no. And I got off and it was a little like, oh, you know, and feeling like a little, a little like down about it. But then I just took a breath and I was like, Ally, you got to move on with your day like that That's your reality. And she wasn't the right fit. And it's okay. And I wish her the best. But this is what you're doing and you're making an impact and you just need to keep going. Right. Or I could have got stuck in it. I could have wallowed in it all day. Nothing else could have happened. Right. And I had a really successful day because I didn't let it take me down. 

Dawn Taylor

No. And I think that's what people really need to look at it and think about is what that looks like. But also we were talking about, like, the being realistic thing. Yeah, the amount of people that are like, oh, but I want an eight figure business, I want a seven figure business. And I'm like, yeah, do you even know what that looks like? Do you have any idea what that would entail for you to do that? Well, no, I'm going to just build an online course and sell it. Do you know how hard it is to actually build an online course and sell it? 

Ally Stone

How many online courses are there out there right now? Oh my gosh. Oh my God. I can't even like, begin to imagine the amount of money Kajabi rakes in every year. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh right. And that's like, what was the business model like? Totally. Well, what is the percentage? It's like 4% of people that buy an online course ever actually do it. 

Ally Stone

Yeah. For sure, for sure. Right. 

Dawn Taylor

And I've done it is the thing. Like I've been the person who's like I'm going to build this course and it's going to be amazing and it's going to go so far. And then I was like, well, that sucked and tanked. And we just put thousands into that and nothing. But that's that whole pivot piece. That's that whole like, I'm not going to have shame. And I'm just like, well, I guess that wasn't my thing and move on. But I think that's where we actually need to be realistic. Is anybody and everybody out there is going to try to sell you on the fact that you can have an eight figure company and you can do this and you can do that and know most people can't. Yeah. 

Ally Stone

The only way you have an eight figure companies, if you figure it out for yourself, I always say business is not black and white. It's actually it's actually quite gray. And it's different for each of us, and it's based on our personality and how we're willing to show up and the commitments we're willing to make. And that then dictates where we're at. 

Dawn Taylor

So what would you tell someone who wants to be an entrepreneur? Oh my goodness. We turned the question back on you. What would you say? 

Ally Stone

Well, I think first I would ask them why. Like what it is. What what has gotten in their head? What is the idea? What is the business? Then I would ask them what that means to them personally with the bigger mission and vision is like how? What's the impact they plan to create if somebody wants to like make widgets as an example, I don't know. I'm really just pulling that out of thin air. Somebody wants to make widgets and they don't have a why or a reason for building that company. I think it's going to be really hard when things get tough. So I think having a vision like for me, like I want to impact 1 million women. And so when things get tough, I'm able to be like, yeah like, think about the impact you've already made. Think about the clients that you work with. Think about the experiences you've had. I know this is a really crappy day, but this is what's going to pull me through. And I think this is very true in life, too. I think a lot of the principles in business can really be related to our lives. And then, um, yeah, I would definitely ask them those things and I think I would also. We kind of already talked about these, but talk about the runway. What is your runway like? How much time are you willing to commit to this business before you like - peace,I'm out! I can't do this anymore because that's a really short runway. You might not want to do it right. Like, what is your actual capacity to commit to this business when people start saying, oh, well, I plan to have another kid in a couple of years. And it's like, okay, well, like we need to just talk about what the priorities are going to be in and like, it's okay. But you need to recognize that if you start this business, you're not just like you said, it's not necessarily especially if it's a coaching business. It's not necessarily a saleable business. Even if you build a business that could be saleable at one point, it's not going to be in 2 to 3 years. Highly, highly unlikely. That's like 2% of businesses. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

You've got a good runway on that one to actually get to the point where you have a sellable business. 

Ally Stone

Yeah, and so, you know, if you're like, okay, well, I'm going to have another baby in a couple of years and I'm going to, you know, I'll step back or somebody will run it or I'll sell it. And it's like, okay, well, these are all really big what ifs. And, you know, to plan your life around that could be really challenging. Right. And so I don't necessarily, um, try to talk people out of either direction. I really just try to help them explore what's like in their heart so that they can make that decision for themselves, because, well, it's a really big decision. 

Dawn Taylor

So it's like a huge decision. 

Ally Stone

I've been in your house and your entire lower floor is dedicated to your business. You have given up half of your house to this beautiful business because you love it. And literally, that also says a lot about your commitment to what you're doing, right? Who else is willing to make that commitment right. And so I think that speaks a lot to I will say, our actions speak a lot louder than our words too. And so, you know, ask, you know, what has been your commitment to your career in the past? When things got hard in your career, how did you show up? Is it important to you that you have nights at home with your family? Because that's not always going to be the case, right? So, um, I do believe we can create an integrative experience. It just has to look different and we need to think differently. But things have to change. If you want to do that, it will never look the same. So I think that's important to recognize. 

Dawn Taylor

It's never going to be a Monday to Friday, 8 to 5. No. And I think that not enough people talk about that, or it's people that talk about how they have the perfect work life balance and that it is a Monday to Friday, 8 to 5. But they're lying about the level of success that they have or the money that they're making or what that looks like. So then we buy into it thinking that we're going to make hundreds of thousands of dollars on a Monday to Friday, 8 to 5. And then when we don't, we feel like a failure. And I think there's not there's not a lot of transparency. There's not a lot of transparency in what's actually going on in people's lives, in their businesses. It's what they're showing out there and they aren't being super honest about it. And so you really need to look at that. And one other interesting one that was just coming up when you were talking is if you have an idea that you think is amazing, 99% of the time, you are not your ideal client. So that might be a widget that you need to use and that you love and you think is the world's greatest idea. But you need to find someone outside of yourself to do some market research for you to be like, is this a widget that's actually a thing? Is anyone actually going to want to buy this? Is this a problem I'm actually solving with the said widget? Because your friends and family are going to be like, oh my gosh, this is an amazing widget. And they're all going to tell you it's the best damn widget they've ever seen, and you're going to make millions. And oh my goodness, we're all going to buy all the widgets for everyone we know. But when the rubber hits the road, nine out of ten of them are never going to give you a penny. 

Dawn Taylor

It's your closest people in your world that will never eat at your restaurant. It's the closest people in your world that will never buy your book. Yeah, they'll never share your posts. They won't 

Ally Stone

And they don't. And so you need to learn really quickly that that's actually not your market. And that's also a hard, hard thing to navigate when you start a business as well. 

Dawn Taylor

But navigating that, that's not, they're not your ideal market. They aren't your market. So if they're not sharing your stuff and they're not sending things out and they're not doing what you're expecting of them, it doesn't mean they don't like you or that they don't love you or that they don't support you. They probably don't know how. Or it's because they're not your market. And to be able to separate that, to be able to lower our expectations of the people around us and separate that. I remember, um, 2019, I wrote a book and it was really interesting the first time that, you know, people that had been telling me for years, I needed to write a book and I'd be like, oh my goodness, did you get it? And they're like, oh, no, I don't like reading. And you're like, oh, damn it, I know what you're like, thank you. Right. And it was so funny. Like I was glad at that point. Even I could take it like, you know, and just laugh it off and be like, oh my goodness, for real? But it's still to this day when someone will say something and I'm like, didn't you read my book? And they're like, no, should I have? I'm like, no, no, you shouldn't have done that. So, I love you. Thank you for not supporting that. Right. But to be able to not take that as a personal offense or a rejection or any of those things. And it's just actually humans being humans. 

Ally Stone

And one thing I'll say about that on the counter side is that building a business, while we don't want to lose ourselves in it and have it become our total identity, it's also a very personal thing, especially when you put your name on it like your name is on your business. Our businesses are us. We're not selling a widget. And so it does actually become quite personal. So it's like navigating that journey of our own. Maybe it comes back to resiliency, our own inner work, our own inner understanding of who we are and how we want to show up in the world and being confident in what we're doing, irregardless of what the outside world perceives it to be, is very important in a forward momentum and the level of success we have, because again, it can come back to that start and stop thing that I was talking about, right? Our mental health can start and stop our business quite quickly as well. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, absolutely. So one of my biggest pieces of advice that I would give to someone, and even if they're in this already and they're like, I don't know if I want to be doing this. Stop giving a shit about what anybody and everyone else thinks and do whatever you want. If you are that passionate about your widget, go sell the damn widget. Right. But get up off your couch and go sell the damn widget. 

Ally Stone

Yes, yes. 

Dawn Taylor

Realizing you have to put the work into it. If you have a business and you're like, I am so sick of the hustle, and I'm just sick and tired of it, and I don't ever want to network again. And I don't ever want to have to sell myself again, or my services, or my restaurant or my store or whatever. Then stop. We don't actually have to torture ourselves for the rest of our lives, but also figure out your worth outside of your business so that your worth does not equal your balance sheet or your profit and loss statement. And that you are you, with or without the business. 

Ally Stone

There's so much more to life, right? This is just a fraction of it now. Yes, we spend a ton of time at work, but you're really pointing to me to like the authentic journey. And do we always make a decision in life that is successful and like, brings in all this joy? No. Like that's part of the condition of being human, part of the journey. And like when we can just embrace that. And if you start the company and you're like, I freaking hate this, that's cool too - just own it. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I got it. I have for sure multiple times. 

Ally Stone

I think there's like this important, uh, piece. I don't know that we're trying to articulate it, that we're kind of talking about today, but it's just that, like, if I was to say it in like a couple words, it's like, you do you but make sure you take the time to know you before you do you, so that you're happy with the decisions you make in life, whether they're successes. I don't really use the word failures a lot, whether they're successes or opportunities or whatever. Just enjoy the life that you're living so that when you are 90 years old, when you're 95 years old and you're sitting on that rocking chair of your life and you look back, you think, yeah, I started that business and it sucked. And I closed it and I went back to my job. And I'm happy with all of it because I'm glad I had all of the experiences I wanted to have in this life. And I think that's the most important thing. 

Dawn Taylor

You know, the business that I sucked the most at is literally what brought me this one. So. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be doing what I was doing had I not sucked so bad at that one. 

Ally Stone

Yeah. It's an opportunity. 

Dawn Taylor

Literally it was a woman from Vancouver who was this amazing restaurant business consultant. And I bid on a session with her at an event, a women's event I was at because she intimidated the hell out of me. Actually, I just saw her a few months ago or about a month ago, and I was there. And she still laughs at the story. And I sat in her office and she's like, what are you doing? She's like, you light up talking about helping people. She's like, you're doing so much of it on the side. She's like, why are you owning restaurants? And my very first trauma client was from one of my vendor reps that had flown in to come and see me about stuff. And we sat in a coffee shop and she cried about her daughter. And her daughter was one of my very first major trauma clients. And her testimonials on my site, I wouldn't be where I am had I not done that business, but also been so bad at it. 

Ally Stone

Yeah, for sure. We gotta suck to get somewhere. Like nobody starts out great at something. When we learn to walk—

Dawn Taylor

We fell on our faces in our asses a million times. Sometimes before we ever finally figured it out. I know nobody started off running a marathon. I don't know why. As adults we expect something different, but that is actually the process.

Ally Stone

 That's part of the experience of being human, and it's part of the beauty of life. Like, what a beautiful story, right? 

Dawn Taylor

So, find a person too, like, Allie and I have bonded over work and life and husbands and health and all the things. Right. But find some people. Find some people that you can have brutally honest, open, real, raw conversations with that won't just pacify you. And won't just yes woman or yes man you. But they will actually challenge you on things. 

Ally Stone

Yeah. It's so incredibly important. Yeah. I remember the first time I kind of started to create that circle around me because I was encircled by yes people, and not in a bad way, but I was like, I need to be challenged in my life. And it was so uncomfortable. It's brutal. But man, did I ever learn. Wow. I learned so much about myself. Like, I wouldn't trade those moments for anything. And so now, in the days which I'm uncomfortable most days in my career and in my life, um, I say - this is important, that I'm uncomfortable because as soon as I'm comfortable, I'm in the status quo. I'm not learning, I'm not growing, I'm not evolving. And those are things that are really important to me. And so, yeah going back to this, like if you're listening, what's really important to you in your life? I know that I'm clear about that. So I make myself uncomfortable. That's part of the experience. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Ally, this was a fun conversation today. 

Ally Stone

Yeah, it was good. It was good. We didn't get into my traumas, but that's okay. Next time, if you want, we'll do another one. 

Dawn Taylor

We'll do another one. You know what, though? I think it's at a time when people are struggling, when a time when business owners are struggling. I think this was the conversation that really needed to be had. Yeah. This is airing at a time of year where we're going into setting new goals for the new year and figuring out what we want to do next year and all of the excitement around that. And with that, I think you need to ask yourself some of these questions and if you want change, but also to give yourself the permission that maybe you don't actually need to or want to be an entrepreneur. 

Ally Stone

Yeah, and that's okay. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, the day I'm done, I'm getting a job for sure. Yeah. I mean, for years I'm like, one day, one day I'm gonna wake up and just be like, I'm out, I'm going to get a job. Chad always laughs about it. He's like, no, you won't. You're still going to be working when you're 90. And like, yeah. Probably. 

Ally Stone

Oh, it's amazing. It's a good journey. 

Dawn Taylor

Part of the fun of it all. Ally, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being part of this conversation and for being a resource, being such an amazing leader and mentor and resource for women and business, people and business, and for what they're trying to do and where they're trying to go. 

Ally Stone

Thanks, Dawn. I'm really grateful for the conversation. Today was awesome. Thank you. 

Dawn Taylor

So for those of you listening, you can find Ally in our Show Notes. She's everywhere. She's an amazing conference coming up at the end of or in September, so we will have all of that in our show notes located at the TheTaylorWay.ca. So you can go check that out if you need any of her contact information. It's also going to be there and pretty, pretty. Please take a minute to actually ask yourself if what you're doing is what you should be doing right now in your life. Thank you, thank you, thank you again, Ally, for being here. And for those listening, check back in two weeks for another fun episode. Talk to you guys later. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Kat Halushka lived the days of her youth in Russia yet eventually found her way to Canada. On paper, the concept of immigration is nothing out of the ordinary. However, immigrants like Kat encounter uphill battles in a new world that’s completely unique to them. In today's compelling episode, we have the privilege of hearing from Kat as she candidly recounts the challenges of assimilating into a vastly different culture. She eloquently expresses her deep appreciation for the heartfelt embrace and support extended to her by a warm and inclusive community.

Who is this for…

Whether you are an immigrant who’s assimilated into another culture or someone living in their home country looking to understand the immigration experience, there’s something to learn from and empathize with Kat’s story. We hope to spread the message that above all else, we should treat everyone with kindness regardless of their country of origin.

Guest Bio

Having grown up in Russia, Kat approaches business and life with a unique perspective from most people. After moving to Canada, she did what everyone else was doing and worked at a ‘solid’ 9-5 job doing tech support. One day, when she arrived at work, something came over her and she realized: I am wasting my life.  

She knew she was meant for more than working at some company that didn’t appreciate her, especially since she felt like she was making no difference in the world. So she quit her job and took a stab at starting her own business and built a 6-figure marketing agency from the ground up in less than a year.  

Eventually she sold that agency to step into her true passion – helping entrepreneurs start and grow a business that supports the lifestyle they desire. She can see people’s potential before they even believe they have any, and she uses that to help them create a high impact life and business. 

In the last 3 years she has been on over 200 stages and generated over 1 million dollars of revenue through these stages.  

Guest Links

Email - [email protected]

Profitable Impact Academy - https://profitableimpactacademy.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/profitableimpactacademy/

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

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Dawn Taylor

I am your host ,Dawn Taylor. And today we are talking to Kat Halushka. Today's topic the other side of immigration. I was joking, I was going to name it from dictatorship to death threats. But that might be a bit dramatic, but not actually that dramatic. If you hear more of Kat's story. But before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about Kat. Kat immigrated to Canada when she was 19, so she was still a child. And okay, okay, I know all you 19 year olds are actually adults, but you're not. She came from Russia and Belarus, comes with a totally different perspective than most people. When she first got here, she worked at 9 to 5. She ended up building an insane six figure marketing agency from the ground up in less than a year. Sold it, is now doing all kinds of entrepreneurial stuff. She's been on over 200 stages in the last three years, built crazy wealth doing that. She's a powerhouse, but she also has a really interesting story around immigration. And so let's dive into that. Welcome to the show, Kat.

Kat Halushka

Hello. Hello. Excited to be here. 

Dawn Taylor

I am so excited you're here. So what is it you wish more people were talking about and discussing? 

Kat Halushka

Uh, really that other side of immigration and what it looks like. What does it mean for a person to immigrate to a different country? I think not many people actually know what I call the dark and dirty truth about being the newcomer.

Dawn Taylor

100%. I mean, as a Canadian, we're just like, yay! Look at our beautiful country. Right, but I can't imagine. I can imagine being that person. So let's start at the beginning of your story. So you were born in Russia? 

Kat Halushka

Yeah, I originally was born in Russia. Well, I mean, back then, USSR. Right. Very first time I was born originally it was. Back then it was USSR. And eventually it fell apart when I was a little teeny tiny baby, uh, and I spent kind of half of my life in Russia where I was born. And then eventually we moved closer to the family, which was in Belarus. So I kind of got to experience both worlds, because when it comes to Russia, it's very typical what you hear USSR it became pretty much Russia, right? Belarus split off into its own thing and eventually turned out into this, like, country that separated themselves from everybody else in the world. They were one of the first countries to get kicked out of Europe Union and, um, splitting off and closing its borders. So when the president came into power and he's still in power, like, gosh, I was 19, I'm like over 30 now, almost 40. Like, that's many years. You would think that should be illegal for a president to be in power for that long, right? They call him the, you know, one of the last dictators in the world because of the way that he ran the country. So needless to say, I'm surprised I'm here in Canada now. But we made it. 

Dawn Taylor

So, for anybody listening, just go Google shit because we're not going to give you all the details. But a dictatorship is a government or social situation where one person makes all the rules, all the decisions, no input from anybody else. It's a complete and utter total power. So, what can you give us even some examples of what it was like being raised or what did that mean in a day to day life? Because again, you came to Canada where we have all of the freedom but have none. But we do like we actually have a lot of freedom here. And so what were some, like, some examples of what childhood was like for you?

Kat Halushka

Obviously as a child, I didn't really think about a lot of those things. Right. So when it came to being a kid, I just got to be a kid thankful to my parents, who, you know, took all the things onto themselves. Uh, I would say I had a pretty, pretty lucky childhood. But looking back on a lot of it even seeing my parents struggles right when it came to finances, when it came to living arrangements, when it came to find a place. But even some of the things when it came to when I was older is, uh, for example, my dad, he worked on those tankers that transport goods between countries. So he would be gone a lot. So usually it's like a US company or some other country's company that would hire him as an engineer or mechanic. Right. So when it comes to Belarus, one of the things that they decided to implement eventually is that banks are allowed to report anything in your account whenever the government wants it. So like there's doesn't need to be any cause,nothing. They just pretty much send you a balance and where the money is coming from. But also they decided to implement that if you work for a country other than Belarus, your taxes are over 50%. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh wow. 

Kat Halushka

So, imagine we're here in Canada now complaining about our, you know, like 25, 30%. But imagine of of every paycheck that you get, you have to give back like 55, 60% of the money. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Kat Halushka

So that's just one of the examples when it comes to things that were very difficult, because there wasn't enough jobs and there wasn't enough connections because my parents were newcomers to Belarus, so they didn't have the connections to get the jobs that they wanted. And now there are newcomers. Well, a few years ago, newcomers to Canada, even less connections and no English. 

Dawn Taylor

That's crazy. So you're 19, your parents are like, oh, hey, by the way, we know you've lived this life for a really long time, and friends and family and language and your comforts. We're going to hop a plane and head to Canada.

Kat Halushka

It was actually even worse. 

Dawn Taylor

Hey, how did that conversation go down? What did that look like? Was it safe to leave Belarus? Was that something where, like in a lot of countries, you're not allowed? That's an issue. Talk us through that. 

Kat Halushka

I think I might have been like 11, 12 when my parents first talked to us about it. I have a brother. So us is me and my brother, and they set us down. We're just children, right? And they're like, how do you guys feel about potentially moving to like, Canada? And we were like, yeah, sure, whatever wasn't much of a conversation. And then what happened is at 19, I was finishing up my college and two months, I think it was about two months before my graduation. My mom came to us and said, oh, by the way, remember how we hired an agency to help us immigrate? It went through, paperwork is done. We booked the tickets and we just sold an apartment. 

Dawn Taylor

So, no conversations for all of those years just because we're done.

Kat Halushka

Because an agency was doing the work. So it's like an agency for hire. So they have their own business doing that. And they tried. They must have tried at least once and it failed. So at that point, my parents had no hope that that's actually going to go through. And so they didn't feel like they actually need to have that conversation. But once it did, it was an immediate, we do it now or never. 

Dawn Taylor

So, was it ever a safety issue with leaving, was that you had to sneak out of your house in the middle of the night sort of thing? 

Kat Halushka 

No, not really that sad. Again, like I said, I'm pretty lucky, child. I feel like my parents took a lot of burdens off of me and my brother, and so I feel like there might have been some things unsaid on why it was so urgent. It just was one of those things. We're done. Wrap up. Uh, you're going to receive your diploma when you're already in Canada. You're not going to attend your grad because we're flying in a week before that. And, um, you are allowed one bag each, so pack wisely. 

Dawn Taylor

You're like, okay, thanks, mom and dad. 

Kat Halushka

And then at the airport, because you have to claim this was probably my first time flying ever. Yeah, at the airport, because you have to claim what you have in the bags. One of the things that I brought was a really, really old book that I really liked, and it was a book about a child who, during the war, uh, the soldiers made fun of him because he didn't smile enough. And so they cut his face from year to year so it would heal in the smile. And it was just like, very traumatic book, but I just really enjoyed it. Yeah, I didn't realize that this book has historical value, and therefore I have to pay to move it to a different country. And so I literally had to give that book to someone in the airport, because we just didn't have the money to pay for it. And why would you pay it, to take a book? 

Dawn Taylor

So, even just that statement, you have to like, tell them every single thing that's in your luggage. You have to pay to remove a book. I'm like, that's, yeah. No, the same as here. Why did your parents choose Canada out of everywhere in the world.

Kat Halushka

I asked myself that every year on our anniversary. But when it comes to between United States and Canada, Canada is much safer. Yeah, but also, originally, our paperwork actually was done to go to Toronto. And last minute, my mom decided that we're going to get an additional ticket to go from Toronto to Edmonton. Yeah, because I don't know who told her that, but she thought Edmonton was this small town with people who all know each other, and they leave their doors open and it's all friendly village. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. Not quite, not quite.

Kat Halushka

Not quite. But perhaps at some point it was. Uh, and we just ended up coming to Edmonton instead of Toronto and kind of stuck around. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

So, you land at the airport. Did you know---

Kat Halushka

Oh, hey, if you guys need all the trauma, even before I landed at the airport---

Dawn Taylor

If you can see Kat's face right now. She was, like, clutching her chest. 

Kat Halushka

So first of all, we go through customs in Belarus and we're all crying. So it was me, my brother and my mom. My dad already made it to Canada because he was for work, flying around. We're all crying. We get on the plane, we're all crying. My brother takes some drugs because he gets really nauseous flying. So he's drowsy. Mom and I are crying. Ten hour flight. Were crying. 12 hour flight were crying. We pick up the luggage in Toronto. We're crying. They're taking photos of us for our temporary ID. We're crying. We cried the whole time, and we landed here. And finally, like, you know, you dry up a little, but now you're just exhausted because we didn't sleep. We ended up crying the whole time and we had someone pick us up. We hired a service to pick us up and take us to an apartment that we rented and all I remember I'm driving in the car and I'm looking out and I'm like, oh my God, why do they sell drugs in the stores in Canada's with big signs? Because English was so limited. I thought literally, people have stores where they sell drugs like illegal drugs or all of  that.

Dawn Taylor

It's amazing that you're like, this is very interesting here.

Kat Halushka

I was like, where did they take us? There's nothing around from the airport except for the road. And then you see big glowing drugs, drug store signs. I mean.

Dawn Taylor

There's just drugs everywhere here. That's funny. What time of year did you move here? 

Kat Halushka

Uh, actually, I landed in Canada on Canada Day.

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so at least you didn't land in, like, the depths of the hell of winter. 

Kat Halushka

No, nothing like that. And I gotta say, one of the most asked questions that I got for the first few years when I still had very thick accent is, um, if it's much, much warmer here. But the truth is, it was never as cold in Belarus or Russia. Edmonton is way colder. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh yeah, oh yeah. 

Kat Halushka

It's crazy.

Dawn Taylor

Weird stereotypical idea that we have of Russia. It's black cars, men in big fur hats, machine guns, and it's all. We've all watched a few too many movies. I think that's crazy. Okay, so you got to figure out adulthood in a place that don't have a natural, like, had you started in school, you would have had like a natural way to meet people, make friends, all of those things. But starting at 19. 

Kat Haluhska

Still going through puberty you could say. And back home I just started getting live and friends and going out and you know like all those things and then landing here and realizing, man, I literally have nobody but my family. And I was so mad at my parents that I wouldn't even like I would, I would just take off and go walk the streets because I just didn't want to be in the same house. 

Dawn Taylor

Uh, I can imagine. Okay, so for starters, I don't know 119 year old that wouldn't behave that way if they had to move to a new place, because that's just how we are at 19. But moving somewhere where nobody speaks the same language, nobody probably dresses the same, eats the same, looks the same, nothing, like there's no comfort in walking into a store and knowing you're going to find that comfort food or that comfort item. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah and I gotta say, like Canada really, really worried me. Like I had so much anxiety just walking on the street because everybody would talk to you. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. We're real friendly here. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. Very friendly. And like, everybody would try to pet the dog where that's a big no no. Like, you don't just pet strangers, dog. And everybody would ask, how are you? And you go to the store and the cashier asks you. And there I'm trying to answer in my broken English. And then realizing they don't really care and not understanding what is the expectation of that interaction, because that's not the interaction I'm familiar with. That's not how it goes. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so I'm thinking back to all of the interactions I've had over. And let's be honest, we live in Edmonton, which is like a multicultural salad bowl. I don't think I've ever been to a place in my entire life that has so many cultures, so many languages spoken. It's a it's an interesting cultural experience here, which I love. Yeah. But that also creates its own set of problems. Right, like like you were saying, like that friendliness. It's that friendliness that makes us so Canadian and makes us so us and how many times have we been part of that? Whereas like, let's smother you with love because you've arrived in our country and smother you with attention for different things, not paying attention at all to like, are you comfortable with this and what are my intentions behind it? But like you said, the expectations behind the interaction. I feel like nobody ever talks about that, right? It's like, what are the expectations you have on this interaction with me? Because right now I'm just trying to figure out life. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah, yeah. And trying to just do the basics like finding a bathroom or buying something at a store that's behind the counter that you have to ask for, but you don't know the word for it. My first experience going on a bus ride, which a lot of people don't think about, but buses don't work the same everywhere, where I came from, bus stops on every stop to pick people up and drop people off. And so, as I said, they're on the bus going downtown to pick up my paperwork as a permanent resident. I don't realize that the bus is not stopping at every stop, and I have to do something in order to make it stop.

Dawn Taylor

You pull the little cord. 

Kat Halushka

Mhm. Yeah. Going to the depot and back was fun. But it was until I was like oh people are doing something around me. They're pressing buttons and pulling cords and all the kind of stuff and figuring out how do you actually know where's it going to stop when you pull it? Maybe it's a stop too early or too late.

Dawn Taylor

Just hope. Just hope and pray that it gets to your stop. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah, it was interesting. It was very interesting. And I think that that was a big learning curve. Right? Uh, and besides that, just lack of exposure to cultures. So when I was growing up, the majority of the people came from countries surrounding me, which means I had a big gap when it comes to exposure to anybody was really different ethnicities or colors of skin. And so I had to be honest, I don't think I've seen a black person until I was 19. Like, it's that bad? Imagine you walk on the street and you get such a high exposure of all the different dresses and cultures and colors and all the different people and how they look. And I'm just in shock and I'm looking because I've never seen it. But people think I'm looking because I'm rude. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. You know, that might cause a problem or two. 

Kat Halushka

Just a couple? Yeah, just a couple. 

Dawn Taylor

So what was the what was the number one thing that you did? Or even, like the top few things that you did to finally find your place to feel comfortable, to to feel like you weren't lost in this big ocean of people anymore. 

Kat Halushka

You know, I probably went the opposite direction from majority of people who immigrate to different country. Yeah. I mean, one of the hardest decisions in my life. And I decided that I'm actually going to cut myself off from my culture. So I stayed away from the Russian speaking community completely. So I had one friend in Edmonton, uh, that we just accidentally met, and that's the one friend who spoke Russian to me. And otherwise I would not go to any events, community centres or gatherings or any sorts that were speaking in the same language as I did.

Dawn Taylor

Your brother and parents?

Kat Halushka

I mean, they spoke Russian at home, but remember, I didn't want to be at home. I'm mad at them. And so I would always be out and I would really reinforce myself. Was the idea that there is no going back? There is no way for me to go back to my past life. There is no way for me to go back to speak in Russian all the time. That's just not going to happen. I'm not going to teach every Canadian how to do it right. There is no way for me to go back and change my education or friends or whatever. There's only forward. And so I have decided for myself that my way forward will be integrate myself into Canadian culture and English as much as I could. It wasn't easy. That's for sure. And you meet all kinds of people. I've been lucky enough to meet people who, at my first job at Tim Hortons, would sit down with me and make me read a newspaper until I pronounce things correctly. And then I've had people who would laugh at me and bring me, because it was funny to joke around how I pronounce things in their friend groups. So you kind of got both. You had people who took advantage or made you the laughingstock kind of thing, and you had people who really wanted to help. And like I said, I've been pretty lucky in my life. I feel like I've had a lot of different mentors and friends who really helped me through those difficult times of trying to learn and integrate. And let's be honest, I'm still weird. I'm always going to be weird, but now I know there's nothing wrong with that. So I'll find my people. Always do. 

Dawn Taylor

You're awesome, I love that. Looking back. So it's one thing to do that at 19 and be like, I'm going to just cut all that off, walk away from it, and I'm going to figure this out because that's what I have to do. Looking back now, all these years later, would you make the same decision? 

Kat Halushka

Yeah, for sure. Because looking at my life right now is I think actually, I don't know if my parents feel the same way, but I think I'm living out the exact legacy that I would want for myself. Yeah. Like I'm living. Living the the the dream that I want for myself. I work for myself. I have the freedom of time. I have the freedom of finances. I have deep connections and friends in my life. Those, you know, like those couple of people who you're going to be friends with forever. They're family now. Yeah, I have just about anything that I wanted. And so to me, that was a stepping stone to that, although it was hardship, it was still the one thing that drove me to work through all of those kinks in order to get to the exact life that I wanted. 

Dawn Taylor

How did your parents, how did your parents deal with that? Because one of the things we had talked about prior to this was, you know, we always hear about the families that came to Canada or came to another country and immigrated because they just want a better life for their children. 

Kat Halushka

Mhm. That definitely was my parents. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. And that's what they wanted. And they they gave you the opportunity. I mean let's be honest. Every parent can give their opportunity, their child an opportunity to do amazing. You did the work. So congratulations right. Like you stepped up. You did the work. You fought for a ticket where you are, right? But what did that journey look like for your parents? 

Kat Halushka

And I think that's one of the dark sides that people don't talk about, is when my parents have made a decision for us to move as a family, they had only one thing in mind, and that's a better life for their kids,  for me and my brother. Like it's it's a better life. It's more opportunity. It's easier life than what they had. Right? It's it's more love and freedom and all the things that we want. Um, and I don't think that through that whole journey, once they thought about how hard it's going to be for them, because me at 19, of course, I picked up English and all of those things, you know, it comes much easier. But also it's so much easier. Yeah, 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, you do your thing. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. And it's easier to make connections because it's just you're just enough and mature to do crazy stuff and be weird. Right. And find your kind of weird people.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. 

Kat Halushka

But as you get older, and that's what I find for myself too. As I get older, it's harder and harder to create those deep connections because you already have a life that you've lived that's so full, and you have your ways and you're pretty set. And I swear it was. Every year I get more and more stubborn in my ways, and I don't know if that's just my family gene. Or maybe that's just people in general. But from my parents is I just feel grateful that they have each other, because often I feel like they never thought about just how alone they're going to be, how how hard it's going to be for them to find friends and deep connections and how their whole life from that point of coming to Canada on is just going to be our family and that's it. Yeah, they left all their deep connections and friends behind. And although of course you can catch up online, it's just not the same. 

Dawn Taylor

It's not the same. And what about even for work? So, they come to this country with, like, my kids are going to have a better life. This is why we're doing this. There was obviously a probably a massive cost attached to them even coming. I mean, not even just the flights, like just the hiring, the agencies, the paperwork, the renting of the apartments, all these things. They arrive now, they're alone in this country. What are they even doing for work? And what did that look like? 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. So luckily, through previous experience, my dad was the only one in the family who spoke English. 

Dawn Taylor

Interesting. Because of his work he had done. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah, yeah. So he had, uh, not a huge vocabulary, but enough to have a conversation and carry the the work that he was hired to do. So he actually ended up, uh, going and getting a project manager certification and going into that field. But before that, of course, we all worked at Tim Hortons, the gas station, the grocery store, you know, the very typical for his jobs, except usually kids work at an early age. That's where you start. But I mean, imagine being like a 45 year old and that's your, what feels like first job, 

Dawn Taylor

Right? And you're and you would be you would be looked at as. The person who had no skills and no training and no anything, even though you would come from this very impressive career back home.

Kat Halushka

Yeah, we all put in our fair and share of working for minimum wage. For those of you from Alberta. Minimum wage used to be way lower than it is right now by about half. 

Dawn Taylor

My first job when we moved to Alberta, we were just about 21. And I remember it was 5.25 an hour. So probably around like it was a few years earlier than you moved here. And yeah, those were the days. Let me tell you. 

Kat Halushka

And I think I always had advantage over majority of the people around me. For me, I always had this. Ever since I was a child, I had this, um, really strong, weird sense of curiosity over everything and how things work. And so, like, even working for Tim Hortons, which was my first job, I went from the minimum wage to making 16 bucks an hour within like six months, which is unheard of. But because I wanted to learn every job, it wasn't just me following their structure. It was me like, okay, and now show me how to do the donuts and now show me how to do the sandwiches, and I'll show me how to manage the payroll. And now you're going to show me how to open and close the store, and now you're going to show me how to fix an oven, because they could never hire people fast enough to do that. And I would just learn every possible job within that place, which made me almost invaluable. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Which is wild. How did your parents deal with? Especially because, like, they had lived that culture for so much longer and the language and all of those things, how did they deal with it when you said, no, I'm walking away from all of this and I don't think I'm going to integrate. 

Kat Halushka

I don't think they ever really knew, to be honest, because I very much disconnected from my family for the first year of being here, for the first year. I was still determined that I'm going to go work, save whatever paycheck I have leftover because I would put money in for the family, right? And then usually half, I would say for myself, and I'm going to go back. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, so that first year you were like, I'm out. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. I was like, I'm going back. I'm going to go visit my friends. And then I didn't really have a plan. What's after that? I just missed my friends so much and I missed home so much that I decided I'm going to go back. And so a year later, I booked the ticket for 30 days. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Kat Halushka

The one thing that, uh, I think I didn't expect. Because that's when the big shift happened of completely deciding to to shift my whole life out of the past and into what's happening now is I didn't realize that when I go back, I have opened my eyes and have had the taste of a different lifestyle and different culture and different surroundings. And so going back, some of the things that you could say, I was blinded to that now I could see is that some of my friends lived in a one bedroom apartment with their parents and grandparents, and the brother and the brother's wife and two kids. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh my goodness.

Kat Halushka

And I just didn't see it before because it was normal. And when it's normal, it doesn't seem out of place or weird. Right? It just seems like that's just how you live. That's how everybody lives. Or going back and realizing that none of the people I went to college was actually went and used their diploma to do the work that they went to college for because they didn't have the connections. So most of them were cleaning toilets or doing some kind of paperwork somewhere, or they were doing tickets on the bus. Just random jobs. Or like even seeing how a teacher, uh, in school back there was making less than the person who was cleaning the toilets in that school. Like, that's just terrifying to think. And especially knowing how much influence my teachers had on me in school. Like, that's just terrible. 

Dawn Taylor

So you went back, had your eyes crazy opened, positive and negative. How hard was it to come back to Edmonton? 

Kat Halushka

Easy. Because now I was determined. I was like, man, I make so much money on my minimum wage here. It's insane. Yeah. Where? Like back home. The the paycheck feels different because of how much things cost. But even if you, if you say, like a loaf of bread would cost, say, like $2, but your paycheck is $150 a month. So it's quite difficult to even comprehend the idea of how my parents have survived through the years with two children. Like it's insane for me to think about it. So when I was coming back, all I could think about like, man, I got it easy. I'm in Canada now. I can get a loan, a mortgage, I can get a job where they pay me every two weeks. Like everything just felt like it's just easy. Like, from now on, it's just easy. Because looking at how all my friends lived, that's hard. They might have not felt that way. And I don't feel sorry for them because they love how they live. But for me, I couldn't go back to that. No. 

Dawn Taylor

And I can see that where it's like, I might hate Edmonton, but I hate this more. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. Yeah, I truly came back loving the opportunity that my parents have sacrificed for to create for me.  And that's when I started healing my relationship with my parents, because I realized that they didn't do it to harm me. They did it to create with me and for me.

Dawn Taylor

Which is amazing. I love that you had the opportunity to heal that. 

Kat Halushka

It's been a journey. 

Dawn Taylor

I bet it has. We all have parents. We all know the journey. 

Kat Halushka

I still have you know like in my garage, this one corner that I just save up all the things that are breakable to go and take to the rage room. So when I'm still mad at things, I can just go and smash them.

Dawn Taylor

You can go and rage. That's awesome. So for your parents, you get to start fresh. You're 19 or now 20. You've been working. You're doing stuff. I mean, you go on to build crazy businesses and do amazing things How does your parents do? 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. I think my parents, um, are very interesting couple in general because I look at their relationship, we often model our relationships after our parents. Right. So even looking at theirs, my dad is very much standard corporate job consistency, stability. He's our anchor. He always has been our foundation, our anchor. He's grounding us. He's incredible at it. My mom is opposite. She's like, how do I find the shortest path from A to B in the best way possible? That creates the most for everybody around. And so she's been from jobs to she started a business. So she actually has a cultural store in Calgary now uh, that she's running and she's constantly her mind is going on what else she can create. So I love that about her is she's very creative and she's very driven. So perhaps that's where I got it from, too.

Dawn Taylor

I was gonna say, give the credit where it's due. Yeah, maybe a little bit. Not too much. We don't want to cause more trauma for you, but yes, maybe a little bit of that.

Kat Halushka

And so her drive has been a huge inspiration for me as well in life a lot of the times, because as I go through hard times, she's been always the person to shift my perspective on what's happening and shifted into, I know it sounds cheesy, but anything is possible and I can do and be whatever I want. And I grew up in that. I grew up in that container of I can create the change in the shift within me or within the world around me in order to make things happen. And again, I just feel so freaking lucky and skillful and just full from an ability to always figure it out. Like there not has not been a moment in my life in many years now where I felt like I can't figure it out. 

Dawn Taylor

That's beautiful. That is something I think more people need to have access to. Is that part of it? And it's amazing. I've always said that I'm like, no, I can figure it out. Bring it on, bring it on. Right. Like I'll figure it out. There's always a way, there's always a way. I'll figure it out. Like I say that all the time. And I love that I've met someone else who has that in them. Because it's not a common trait these days. The beautiful gift your parents gave you, even if it came wrapped in a shit ton of tears and flights and trauma and everything else. The wrapping paper may have sucked, but the gift itself was really beautiful.

Kat Halushka

Yeah, it's actually the conversation I had with someone yesterday about change. So I think that's one of the superpowers that is underrated. That people should embrace more. And I think me being able to not just create change for others, but create change for myself and enjoy it, truly find joy in it. It came from originally that trauma that I got from moving to Canada that I got to heal throughout the years. So that's the thing is, I find that we live through life and I mean, we all have some kind of trauma, not just one multiples, right? And once we start working on healing, and that's how it was for me once I start working on healing it, that's one of the things that I noticed is when I'm doing the work. And once the healing has happened for me, it always turns into a superpower. It's freaking crazy.

Dawn Taylor

Oh. Doesn't it? 

Kat Halushka

Uh, it's just insane. So, like, embracing my weirdness, finding joy and change, creating shifts. And at any time that I want or need, like, all of those are superpowers that came originally from something that I thought was so traumatic and at that age, dramatic. That was the end of the world, right? And so the joy in life is truly found within the healing process and the healing journey and all the things that come after. Or that's what I believe.

Dawn Taylor

I 100% agree. You know, I was thinking to as you were talking, we are so quick to hold on to an identity. And for anyone who's going to get mad at me because this isn't politically correct. Deal. Send an email to [email protected]. But we grab on to an identity, right? And I was thinking about when you said that you had to like, shut off all the Russian peace, the Belarus piece, that part of you to fully integrate into where you are. We do that all the time. We buy into an identity of what our role is and our marriage. We buy into an identity of who we are as a parent. We buy into an identity of who we are. Looks health, culture, jobs, titles. And it was that shift. It was that shift in releasing the identity, because at the end of the day, you are still who you are genetically like, who you are, and your brain, your heart, your soul, like, that is still you. You had to release. You had to release an identity around that. To be able to accept a new one. You had to release an identity around that to be able to create something new. And it didn't mean it was dead and gone, right? But you had to push yourself out of that comfort zone. You had to push yourself out of that, that area you've always known. Right? It's the concept of like, if you're the smartest person in the room, get in a bigger room. Change rooms. And that, that discomfort, I think is so huge. And we need to learn to feel good in the discomfort. Not even feel good in it but to like almost get excited about it. Like oh this is uncomfortable okay. What would this mean for me? What could this mean for me?

Kat Halushka

Mhm. That's one of the things that as a child, a lot of us play and put on different masks and personalities and you try different things, right? And then some of you like and some you don't, some you keep and some you don't like. I think about some mannerism when I was a child. I still have it, probably forever will have because I like it. I liked it about me, so I kept it and I forever will keep it right? And so last year, part of my healing process is that was the year of one phrase for me, and that one phrase was, it's okay to change your mind. Isn't it powerful? Especially as a woman. It's okay to change your mind. You can be someone different. You can do something different. You can go somewhere different. That's okay to change your mind. And so I just came back from Mexico, which originally was supposed to be a speaking arrangement that someone invited me to do in San Diego. And I was asking my guides and I was like, should I book it? I'm just not sure. Like the timing, whatever, all the things. And I kept getting, yes. And then I go online and I look up the tickets and the website crashes and I'm like, okay, refresh. And as I refresh, promo code comes up for a trip to Mexico. And I'm like, that's not what I was looking for. But I'm like, huh? Did you mean I should book the flight or I should book the trip? I was like, book the flight. And I was like, Mexico, it is. So it's okay to change your mind. I got way more enjoyment out of that than going to San Diego to speak. 

Dawn Taylor

You just made my day because it is so true. It is so true. You are a beautiful soul. I hope you know that. You really are. If you were to give any advice. Two parts, one for people coming to Canada or an immigrant here, or someone who's just moved here that is like, wow, what do I do? What is a piece of advice you'd give them and a piece of advice you'd give for a super overly friendly Canadians welcoming in all of these immigrants, right? I have no idea what to do. 

Kat Halushka

I'm going to start from Canadians because they are overly friendly, and there's nothing wrong with that And just be forgiving and patient because when it comes to new language, new places, new cultures, new introductions, right? It takes a little bit to learn. And a lot of the times it doesn't even mean you got to explain something, but it's just a matter of giving a person an extra half a minute to figure out what they're trying to say. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. 

Kat Halushka

Right. It takes some time. So, a little more patience and grace to those around. Doesn't matter if they're immigrants or they live here. Some of us just need time.

 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say, I don't think it's just for the immigrant. We all sometimes just need an extra second. 

Kat Halushka

Yeah. And then for people who either just immigrated or are looking to immigrate soon is tap into all the resources that are offered. That was such a huge game changer for me. Um, there were programs for new immigrants where they would walk you through some of those cultural differences, made a huge difference for me. Uh, one of the biggest life changing experiences that I got to go through was actually going to northwest to English classes. And it wasn't even because of English is because of the amount of different cultures in there. And just how patient the teachers are who are introducing you. Yeah, to all those cultures and little weird things about Canada and weird things about English, and how much of a community you get to build within that that you truly are going to need, especially if you're coming alone. 

Dawn Taylor

I do love that about especially Edmonton, like we have so many resources here for people 

Kat Halushka

And years down the road actually went back and volunteered for northwest as a teacher helper. 

Dawn Taylor

Really? 

Kat Halushka

Yeah, because I felt like it's such a tremendous opportunity to be in a place in my life to actually give back in that way and volunteering. Now, I want you to just imagine here for a second. You're in the classroom and you're in a classroom of the level one, which is the the really first level of English, which is people know maybe a word or two. Yeah, it was 20 people from eight different countries, and they're not allowed to use their own language. And you're teaching them English. Part of that is given back. But other part of it I truly got to play, because how else can you teach someone a word that truly means nothing to them, but to be a kid again and place your grades? Really, that that's what it's like. That's the classes you play in charades. 

Dawn Taylor

So all the hand motions. Amazing. Kat, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing this. I feel like my interactions with people are definitely going to shift based on this. And yeah, we got to think about those parents sometimes. But also I can just visualize this beautiful 19 year old just angry and full of piss and vinegar and spitfire who's going to make a difference in this world? Kat is an international speaker. She's a marketing consultant. She's a business tool nerd and the founder of Profit Impact Academy. Go to the Show Notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca to find her information. Her contact information, all about her, how to follow her everywhere to hear her cool accent. Thank you to all the listeners who are here today. And yeah, subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you download and listen to your podcast and see you here in two weeks for another cool topic. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Ron Sutherland is a financial coach and has always been a stickler for preparedness in his line of work and beyond. He has dealt with countless clients and helped them plan when it comes to their money, especially for the unknown time that lies ahead - retirement. Today's episode of The Taylor Way Talks will tackle this time of one's life with hard questions and sobering realizations. Some dread it, some are excited for it yet at the end of the day, we all have to face it and it's better to plan. 

Who is this for…

Retirement will come for all of us. What actually happens when we arrive, and will the money we save now be enough for then? If you've had either of these questions linger in your mind and were too afraid to ask, this podcast is for you. The episode is a look at a reality we all have to face, tackled by our fearless host and a guest who's gone above and beyond to make sure the road ahead for his clients is as smooth as possible. 

Guest Bio

Immediately after graduating from University with a Bachelor of Commerce, Ron Southerland started a position with a globally recognized financial company. What immediately captivated him about the profession still rings true ten years later- teaching people every day to make informed decisions on their situation. Ron truly believes that the work he does as a Certified Financial Planner changes his client's lives for the better. With that, he has committed to be a lifelong learner for his clients. Ron holds three designations (CFP, CLU, CHS) on top of a commerce degree and is working on a fourth one (Trust and Estate Practitioner). With this knowledge, he has found his talents best align with business owners, professionals and those who are in or entering retirement. As a business owner and a young professional, Ron can relate to many of these clients and speak their language.

Ron is blessed with a beautiful wife, two children and a 13-pound Shih Tzu named Arthur. He and his wife, Morgan, love watching their kids grow up and learning new things every day. During his downtime, Ron enjoys playing hockey year-round and loves to golf in the summers. He is always happy to connect with people over a coffee!

Guest Links

LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/ronsutherland

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor
Hey hey hey, I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today I get to talk to one of my favorite humans on this earth, Ron Sutherland. We're going to do this a little bit different today. So, for starters, I'm not going to tell you where he works. You have to go to the Show Notes to figure that out because compliance, baby. But we're going to talk about something that has been a really big, not issue, but a confusion for me in my brain and also something that I've never really thought about. And I think a lot of people haven't, and a lot of people are lacking information on it. And so we're going to dive into some stuff. Please note in advance. None of the advice given today. Is proper advice. And what I mean by that is for compliance. Ron can't say anything. He can't agree. He can't. He can't deny because we're talking about money. We're talking about retirement. We're talking about the concepts of all of these as well. But if you are curious, at the end of this, like normal, you can go to the Show Notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca, and you can reach out to him yourself and you can get your own numbers and crunch those numbers and do what you need to do there. But let's get started. So Ron is one of my besties. He's one of my guys. We have a very hilarious story about how we openly hostile hated each other when we first met, and then got stuck in a golf cart together for a very long day of golf at a networking thing. And I think by the end, we walked away with a totally different opinion of the other person. And now we've been friends for a long time. And he's a husband. He has a beautiful wife, two kids. He has a shih tzu named Arthur, who is probably more important to him than any of the above, but he's also phenomenal when it comes to money. He has a million designations. He's a certified financial planner. He does all kinds of cool, crazy things. So definitely check them out. He's who I recommend everybody talks to, but that's all I can give you today unless you go to the Show Notes. So, welcome to the show, Ron. 

Ron Sutherland
Right on. Thanks so much. Good to be here. And I guess yeah it's been, we figured it out yesterday. It's been like 8 or 9 years. We've been friends and eight and a half since we've known each other I guess. 

Dawn Taylor
Right. I always laugh and people are like, how did you guys meet? How did you guys become friends? And I'm like, “We literally hated each other. And we walked up to a golf cart and realized they'd put us in a golf cart together for an entire day of golf.” And we laughed about it and we were both like, oh good grief. No. And I, I'll never forget the looks on both of our faces when we both walked up and saw that. And then by the end, we were like booking a coffee and laughing and having a blast. 

Ron Sutherland
So now here we are. 

Dawn Taylor
I know right all these years later. So I asked you to be on the show today because anyone who's listening to this, if you know anything about my story, you know that I really did not think I'd be here past the age of 38. Like, that was the number that was the brain aneurysm number of like, you're not going to make 20 years. So I had never thought retirement. Like, it wasn't even a concept in my mind to think retirement. And over these last six years since, which is a wild thought, you and I have had some really cool conversations about it and like, what does that look like? And how much money do you need to retire and how do you save, and where does that money come from? And how do all these things even work? But also like, what do people do for retirement? Because it's a whole thing. So let's start with some of the, I don't know, the lies, the myths, the beliefs around retirement that you hear on the regular basis that are all just kind of a pile of shit. 

Ron Sutherland
I think the biggest one is that everybody has this idea in their mind that you need to have $1 million in the bank to retire, and that I don't know where it came from. I don't know why that's the number, but, um, everybody just comes and says, okay, if I need $1 million, like, how am I going to get there? And, you know, am I on track versus other people? And that's a really tough question because we always compare ourselves to other people. But are you going to spend like other people? And a lot of the time that I talk to people, they say, well, how much do I need to retire? So what are you going to spend in retirement? Well, I don't know yet. How am I supposed to know what you need? And so that's, that's one of the kind of the funniest questions I get is, you know, how much do I need? But I don't know what I'm going to spend, because that's kind of a math thing. And if we don't know what we're going to spend in retirement, how am I or any other advisors supposed to figure out how much you need? 

Dawn Taylor
So how would somebody figure that out? So, like, Chad and I have been having this conversation because now we are working on like, “Oh, hey, we're in our mid 40s and we've never done a damn thing for retirement. And now we need to figure this out because, hey, what if we're not actually going to die anytime soon? And according to medical doctors, we're thriving. So we need to start saving.” And you and I have had that conversation of like, what is life going to look like later and what are your priorities? And so for us, like we aren't traveling to go visit our children, we don't have kids, we're not needing to deal with any of those things, but also we don't have kids, so we probably need a little bit more money in an account for the seniors home we're going to have to pay for and those sorts of things, but also like health being a massive priority, we will put more money into health things than an average person, or travel. What are some key things that people should be thinking about when it comes to retirement? 

Ron Suterhland
Well, I think with you and Chad with, you know, other people that don't have kids, one of the big things we chat about is, um, if it's going to be the two of you and it's always going to be the two of you, do you want to use that travel budget now, or do you want to use it in retirement and using it now? You know your great health, sound mind. You can go, you're more active, you can go do more things. So why not start to do some of that along the way? And then by the time that you get to retirement, maybe you don't want to do those big trips anymore. And it's just kind of, um, slowing down. And then that pocket that could have been for the legacy piece of leaving it to children can now be the long term care costs or the, um, you know, the hospital or the, um, care facility that you kind of mentioned. So it's kind of a balancing act between - are we saving everything for retirement that we're not really sure what that's going to look like, or do we want to have some experiences along the way? And I know that for you and Chad, like, well, you specifically, you like the experiences, you like to travel, you like to drive them along to these things. And he just kind of goes along with the ride and enjoys it. Um, and I think that's really great. And I try to with my, people that are the dual incomes with no kids just say like, hey, enjoy it along the way, like enjoy the journey. Because if you get to 65 and you have all this money, but you don't have your health and you don't have ways to spend it, like you're going to look back and wish you would have done that traveling along the way. 

Dawn Taylor
I heard this concept years ago. It's like live semi-retired til you die. And it was, it was talking to a couple that were like we just want to live semi-retired but we'll work forever. And I remember thinking like, what does that mean for you and for us? We've often talked about that. Have we made the smartest financial decisions? Oh hell no, we haven't. Should we have booked the crazy trip? Should we be booking the next one for next year? Honestly, from a financial planning standpoint, no, we probably shouldn't. We should put that money against debt or we should put that money into retirement. But it's also this piece of life is so short. And we are so aware of the fact that we're living on borrowed time. Right. And we need to live. We need to live and we need to enjoy. And you have to have a healthy balance, I think.

Ron Sutherland
And that is a big part of it. Like the, the you know, there is that thought of the financial planners. I was going to tell you to save more money and pay down debt and do all these things. But, um, the emotional side to it is saying, you know, I recognize that clients need to do those things while they're alive. And the nice thing from the mental state on the semi-retirement model is that, um, if you go out on vacation, you're still going to have a paycheck and they're still going to be more money coming in. You don't feel as guilty spending that money. Whereas when you get to retirement and you have all the money that you're ever going to have and you have no more paycheck coming in, when you go on these trips, you're worried about spending, especially if you're doing in the first two years of retirement because you're like, how long can I keep spending like this? Or, you know, I don't have an income coming in. So if there's another trip attached to it and I want to go, I don't know if I can do that. Whereas, you know, if you're doing that semi-retired thing, you know, it's just money. I'll go keep working and then I'll be able to pay it off. And, you know, if I work an extra month to go have this experience, then so be it. It's fine.

Dawn Taylor
I love thatI know this is a number that everyone thinks is totally different. But another number that I've heard a lot of. And maybe it's a myth, maybe it's not, is that 50% of people die within two years of retirement. They've lost their purpose. They've lost their will to live. I know ones that have all of a sudden decided to take up motorbikes or, you know, whatever it is. But people, there's a really crazy percentage of people that don't survive that far past retirement. 

Ron Sutherland
It is. It's crazy to see. And I will say that especially through COVID, for us it was very tough because a lot of the planning that we did leading into, you know, people retiring in summer of 2020, for example. Um, a lot of people retire January 1st or a lot of people that retire kind of right to start that summer month. And for those that were retiring January 1st, that had all these kind of plans in mind of volunteering or golfing or traveling or, you know, we really try to get them to a place where they have something to do every day, or they have some habits built in, whether it's going to the gym or going out for coffee or, doing something just that's in a routine. And COVID kind of put a hard stop onto that. Like I had a client that had six different things in mind, and it was going to be golfing, volunteering and traveling and doing all this. And, you know, three months into it, she said, like, can't do any of this. Like, what am I doing with myself? And I think that that major shift affects a lot of people. And when you're not going to work and when you aren't interacting with people on a regular basis, and when no one's really depending on you to do something, um, you can get kind of lost in the noise. And so we do see a lot of kind of major health changes or people passing away and, um, you know, loss of a spouse. The second one typically passes away a couple years after, we see because it's just such a huge change in their life and in what their day to day was. So it's not a stat that I follow, but it's one that I've seen time and time again around our retirement clients. And so we really try to get in front of them on more of a regular basis than we would on those years, kind of leading up to retirement, just to have kind of that touchpoint in that, um, conversation piece so that, like, they know that somebody out there is talking to them and then they have that plan and we can kind of check in. 

Dawn Taylor
Chad and I have often laughed, he took a year off. Years ago he just took, like this sabbatical year off work. And you and I've talked about this a bunch of times. Yeah, he's done some other ones. Not a full year, but he's definitely done this for other ones. So he just takes like big chunks of time off work. But this one that he took off work, it was really interesting because he started to lose his ability to talk. He lost his words. He started losing his hand-eye coordination. He started like weirdly bumping into things. And I was like, “Dude, you're physically falling apart from not working, like, what is this?” And that's always how we know. It's like time for him to even go back to work when he does take like so to put it out there, like he works very hard and he's working and then he, like, he does an entire year's worth of work in six months, and then he'll take 4 to 6 months off and. But like, that's one of the signs where I'm always like, oh no, dude, it's time. You need to call your boss to go back to work because he does. Like he literally starts to lose that. And we've talked about it in regards to like when you're not having like the grandkids to play with or you're not having those things to keep you going. And when, especially for the two of us, when we've worked so hard for so long, like we work more than the average person, both of us, to have that jarring stop of nothing. This, like this weird date, you know, this random date of like, oh, I'm 65 now. I have to retire. Now, what am I doing for the next 20, 30, 40 years? Like that actually doesn't seem enjoyable to me. Like that is not that. That does not seem like a smart life choice in my brain.

Ron Sutherland
And it's, um, we're seeing more and more people are picking up part time jobs just for the fun of it, to keep them busy. You know, you look for an example, like, you'll see people who, in retirement, who are starters at a golf course or they're working at, you know, the Wal-Mart greeters. Yeah, greeters at Walmart or, you know–

Dawn Taylor
Like, Disney. Half the employees there, I swear are Retired. 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. Or like the you know, you get into the back section of Home Depot and you've got an old guy that's happy as can be to walk you around the store for an hour. Right. And so it's, it's just it's giving them that interaction with people but also giving them, you know, I need to get up and I need to go to work, and I need to do something with myself for a while to make it kind of worthwhile. And, um, older generations seem to do really well at that. Um, I'm interested to see how our generation handles that, where, um, we do work really, really hard, but we like to play as well. And I think that, you know, from what I see, like our generation spends way more money than our parents or grandparents ever did. 

Dawn Taylor
Absolutely. Yeah. 

Ron Sutherland
So, it'll be interesting to see kind of come retirement, the behaviors that we go through. And if it is, you know, we're going to keep working because that's all we've known. But we have to keep working because we're spending like crazy. 

Dawn Taylor
I could see that happening. So I want to talk about the concept of retirement. This whole idea of retirement. We all have this, like number in our head. And I was talking to a friend years ago and she's like, I don't know how we're going to do it. And I said, what? And she was like, I'm 50. She's like, we do not have anything saved for retirement. She's like, how are we going to come up with enough money for the next 40 years in the next 15? And I said, so work for an extra ten years. And she was like, what? And I said, weird. And so I was questioning things, right. Anytime societies like this is the rule, I'm like, hmm, I know about that. Let's challenge that and see. And so I had done a bunch of research on it years ago. And the fact that retirement actually came into effect, it was developed in Germany in 1889 by some German chancellor. And literally it was to stave off, I'll read this right from the history of retirement that I had done my research on, to stave off an uprising by young, unemployed Marxists, he decided to pay citizens aged 70 and older to leave the workforce voluntarily. And some places you find that it'll say like at 65, that is what they did. And it was literally like, we are paying you to stop working to save us money. Because we need jobs. We need jobs for people. So we're going to just, like, send you home with the paycheck, this baby paycheck for the rest of your life. And that when it came into the States, they lowered it to 65. But when this came in, people weren't living for more than 3 to 5 years post-retirement. It came in at a time where it wasn't 25, 35, 40 more years of life. Is that something that is even happening in the industry, in shifts that are happening because people aren't dying as much in their 60s anymore? 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah, it's definitely like they're not dying of old age anymore. They're dying of something. And that something comes on a lot later than it used to. Right. So, um, people are living 10 to 15 years longer than, you know, what they used to live. And so I think the biggest, um, thing that I can kind of relate to is that when you think of defined benefit pensions and you think of, you know, the teachers, the municipal workers, the government workers that all have them, um, you know, you put a bunch of money in and then they shoot up this monthly paycheck to you when you get to retirement. And that goes for life. And these pensions are so expensive to run that, you know, years and years ago, a lot of people had them and now they're essentially gone, other than, you know, the people that I just named. And it's because they're so expensive and people are living so much longer that they need so much more money in them to function. And like, you look at the post office like they've got one of those pensions and people keep living and, you know, they're constantly in the need of more money for them. Um, so the retirement vehicles have also changed. So now we're seeing a lot of those defined contribution pension plans where it's I put money in my work puts money and they match it and we invest it. And then we get a big pile of money at the end of it, and then we just poke a hole in it and that's what we get. And when we run out of it, that's it. And that is easy from a forecasting side for a company to understand of, you know, how much money do we have to put into this? And so, um, we don't have the same retirement options that, you know, generations past had kind of readily at our fingertips. So everything's kind of changing that way, especially on the age side. And, um, like when you look at care facilities and the cost of care facilities now, like they're going through the roof, right? Because people just aren't dying off and they can live in these centers for 20 years. Right. And so, you know, if their mind goes with their bodies healthy, you could be in a facility for 25 years, 20 years and just be there.

Dawn Taylor
I know it's such a crazy idea. Right. And I think so. Chad and I have talked. He's like, I want to retire at the minute I can. And he's like, and you'll still be. Oh, totally. Yeah. HE just wants to retire. Right. And he's like, and you're going to work until you die. And I was like, oh, I will probably like, I'll go to work that morning. Die in the afternoon. And we we've joked about this, but there is so much pressure. And I know when I talk to people, there's so much pressure on them right now. The amount of people, even in my office that I see that like they're in their late 30s, early 40s, 50s, they're freaking out already about retirement and what that's going to look like and what those numbers look like. And we have so many generations alive at one time because no one's dying. And we're living healthier and healthier and healthier, longer and longer and longer, right? That people are really stressed out about it. They're very stressed out about, like, what am I going to do? Where is this money going to come from? Or they're the polar opposites and they're like, figure it out. And there's always some government funds that'll show up. 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. And I, you know, most people get more from the government. They think they're going to get um, when you look at, you know, Canadian pension plan, old age security. Like, it's not like it's not something that you strive to live only off of, but it is a nice, healthy base that's always going to be there when you're alive. Um, so, I mean, there is that I would say that, you know, a lot of the clients that I work with. They love what they do for work. And so like if I think of my job, I think of your job, you know, and I think of, you know what? If I had to work till I'm 70. Well, I love the work that I do, and I'm helping people and I'm interacting with different people every day, and I find it really rewarding. So in the back of my head, I go, yeah, I'm going to retire early. I'm going to do all these things because I might be able to. But at the same time, if I like what I'm doing and I enjoy what I'm doing, then why would I just keep doing it? Making money? And then, like you said, doing this semi-retirement and a lot of people that have chosen their career path and are in a job that they like, whether it's being a business owner or working for a company. They don't hate the idea of reducing hours and semi-retiring or, you know, working seasonally if they can and just kind of continuing on or giving back and training that next generation to do the job right and being kind of a mentor for them. So um, I think that the landscape in retirement for a lot of people is changing that way. Like for me, it's, uh, I will likely be able to retire early, but I probably won't. And I don't know if that'll mean that I will keep, you know, working in the capacity that I'm working as an advisor or if I will mentor new advisors or if I will, you know, create my own team that I will just kind of oversee and, um, work with. But same thing with you. Like, I know that you're passionate about what you do, and I know that you see great value in it and you get, you know, great reward out of the work that you do. And so. I can't really imagine you're retiring completely anyways, because you also have that bleeding heart where if somebody calls you and says, I really need some help, you'd be like, okay, absolutely, I'll be able to help this person. And that's not going to change. When you turn 65, you know you're going to be 66 and people are still going to ask and you're still going to say yes and you're still going to, you know, be doing that work for them. And, you know, that's really good for you in the way that you're not going to have to worry about that, you know, first year of retirement home because you're going to be doing the same thing. At least I think that Chad's completely different. Chad's going to, you know he'll be done 

Dawn Taylor
Chad'll tap out the minute he can be done. And he will. And that's okay. That's totally him. And I love that about him. Yeah. But I do think it's a conversation that needs to be happening more though with people. Is this concept of realistic? I don't know I always say it's like this realistic denial right? Where it's like, no, we need to actually look at like, what would it take? What are the numbers? I remember having a client and I'd called you about it. And I'll say numbers because you can't. But I had a client who was like, she was panicking about this, and it was causing like, sleepless nights. It's like, how am I going to do this? And when we're grabbing onto control of anything in our lives, right. When we're feeling like life is out of control, we always grab onto something to panic about, right? It's a thing that's safe, and that's what we're going to put all of our stress on. And for her, it was retirement. That was her thing. That's what she was panicking about. And she's like, I have to have $8 million in a in an account before I can retire. And I don't know how I'm going to do it. And, you know, I'm gonna have to cut all my expenses and I'm going to have to get like, four more jobs and I've done this often too, when I'm like, okay, we're gonna call someone and I do this all the time to my friends in businesses. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna call a mortgage broker. I'm going to call someone an insurance. I'm going to call whoever I need you to be. Like, what does this look like? We need some realistic numbers. And I said, look, I'm not asking for a quote. I'm not asking for anything precise. But if I was to live till 65 and I want $7,000 a month to live off of the price for like 35 years or 30 years, what does that look like? And you were like, oh, about $800,000. Like a total, you're like, I've just done a plan for someone.  

Ron Sutherland
I was actually really close to what I just did. I was like, oh, great. I actually know this number. 

Dawn Taylor
Totally. And it wasn't like for anyone that's saying, this is not this is not actual advice. This isn't specific numbers to you and your circumstances or what's going on. But you had told me like, these are the metrics around it. This is like you'd have to have the CPP in the old age and like, but this is about how much money you would take home a month. And the look of relief on my client's face when she heard that number. And then when we sat down and talked about it, she's like, that is feasible. Like, I'm on my way to that. And I said, okay, so now let's look at what is a day in the life of you at 65 going to look like? Like, what do you think that's going to look like if you want the golf membership to the club, what is that going to cost you? If you're still planning on having a mortgage, what is that going to cost you? Right. Like what is this going to look like for you? And we came up with some numbers. She went and talked to her guy. She's solid in that now. Right. But I think part of it is that we're so intimidated, we're so scared. And instead of facing it, instead of actually, like, calling someone and going, hey, can we talk about this? Can we start something? Can we have these conversations? We all just hide. And hope it'll like one day figure itself out. 

Ron Suteherland
And the one thing that I see from people time and time again is when they calculate their retirement in their head, they don't take into account that their money makes money. So, for example, they'll say, oh, I've got $100,000 and I need $20,000 a year. That means I only have five years of retirement. And the math doesn't work that way. And obviously that's a really small example of it. But they don't realize that when you invest money, it makes money over time. And they don't take that into consideration. They don't take the government benefits in, and they just look at physically pulling out all the money that they need from their savings every year. And they don't take into account, you know, the government things, um, that they may have a spouse or partner that's also going to contribute to that. Um, the other thing that I always find, um, very interesting is when you ask the husband or the wife what they plan on doing in retirement. Sometimes it's very obvious that they haven't actually talked to each other about that, and then they're saving towards a goal that neither one of them have communicated to each other. And, you know, one person might want to stay at home and not work at all. And the other one may want to continue working or doing something. One person may want to travel and the other says, oh no, when I get to retirement, I just want to relax. I want to be done. I don't want to have any sort of things that I have to do. And the lack of communication between the two is, um, a big issue. And not that they're going to have struggles. Um, but it's just tough to make those plans when you haven't had a discussion about what it's actually going to look like. And you don't have to know for sure what it's going to look like. But, you know, having an idea of, like you said, are we going to travel a lot or are we going to have golf memberships? Are we going to, you know, spend a lot of time with the grandkids? Are we going to babysit the grandkids is another one that our generation is pretty good at pulling over on the parents. They're saying instead of paying for daycare, we're just going to drop the kids off and is that something that they want or something that they don't want? And, um, figuring that out is really good to kind of see what it's going to look like. 

Dawn Taylor
Well, and like, do you want to host in Arizona? Do you want, like, what is it you want? Um, so I had this like, funny phase where we hit our 40s and all of a sudden I was like, huh? Okay, we have to start thinking about this. And I don't even have a concept of this in my head. And for some people this might not make sense, but I remember calling you and going, Ron, this was like literally an end of a road. Like it was like the train went through the station and stopped at like 40. And then it just didn't continue. Like I've never even thought about it, dreamt about it. Anything, like this has never even been a concept in my brain. Like retirement wasn't even a thing. And it wasn't for my husband either. And I phoned you was like, what is your plan for retirement? Like, what are you doing? And I just started calling, like, all these random people in my life. And I was like, what is your dream? And the answers I got were so varied, right? Like some people were like, oh, we're going to get a place in Arizona, we're going to Winton, we're going to Snowbird. And other people were like, oh, we're planning on moving to Mexico full time, and we're going to live in a village. And my brain goes like, what? What about medical care? And what are you going to do about this? And right. 

Ron Sutherland
But the practicality kicks in.

Dawn Taylor 
Because I'm too practical in that way when it comes to health stuff. Some people were like, oh, we're going to get like a mountain cabin, whatever. We're going to get a lake house. So we're going to, you know, everyone has this idea in their head of what it is. What is your idea for retirement? Like, what does that look like for you? 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. Oh geez. That's a, you know, and it's tough for me because I'm constantly looking at it, dealing at it, moving it around. Right. 

Dawn Taylor
Totally. You hear and see this all day every day. Yeah. 

Ron Sutherland
Like I mean my goal is to financially be able to retire at 55, not counting the value of my business. And so, um. Because I want to go through the side of actually building a retirement without taking my business value into context. And, you know, if I did that, then I would obviously be able to retire earlier. But the idea for me is I want to do everything I'm telling all my clients to do right. I want to be saving. I want to be putting stuff away for the kids. And, um, but I also don't want to retire before my kids go to university because I want them to see, you know, me as someone that's working, and I want them to remember that I did work at some point in time and that, you know, it is an important thing to do. And, um, and maybe one of my kids wants to jump into the business. And for me, staying on longer, it would be really powerful to be able to share that experience with either my son or my daughter. I don't know which it is. Depending on day to day I have different opinions of which one it could be. 

Dawn Taylor
Your daughter? Your daughter’ll be scrappy enough, 

Ron Sutherland
I think so, yeah. Like, I just want to be able to go at 55. Um, but I probably won't. I could see, um, downsizing the clients that I work with and doing maybe a consulting side only, Morgan and I have talked about, you know who I know the States and, you know, playing golf in Arizona or something for 3 to 4 months. And what does it look like? But we have all these ideas. And for a while it was, we're going to go buy a condo in Canmore. And, you know, we're going to have that. And then. Then we'll sit and we'll kind of walk that back and say, okay, but wait a minute. We don't ski, we don't snowboard, we like the winters. We could go down there in the winters, but then what? And we golf a lot here in the summers. We could go down there for golf, but what are we actually going to do with it? Condo in Canmore. And so we've kind of now said, okay, well that doesn't really make sense. And so then with, you know, Arizona or Palm Springs, you think, okay, like this is great, but my licensing doesn't, as soon as I cross the border, the governing body just assumes that I've lost all my knowledge when I enter the States so I can’t actually work if I'm in the States. So that kind of changes that side of it. So, um, we don't have like a finite thing in mind of what it's going to be, but we've eliminated a lot of things along the way. And I think it's part of that discovery process to say, what actually do we want? Um, same thing about talking about moving, right? Would we move? Would we go to BC, would we go to Vernon or Kelowna and live there and say, well–

Dawn Taylor
Don't do it. 

Ron Sutherland
And that's the thing, you just go, well, what do we enjoy? We enjoy the people that we like. We enjoy, you know, having our family close, we enjoy places that we know. We're not really those people that are going to pick up and move. So then, you know, it's okay. Well, what about a late lot? Again, we come back to what we golf all the time. So that's during the same piece. So it's um, the retirement thing for me is really just you're coming up with ideas and you're eliminating them based on who you and your spouse are and what you want for your kids. And the big thing about going to the States for me was, I don't know that I ever want to be in a different country for my kids for six months at a time. Like that in itself just doesn't appeal to me. You know, I hope that I will have a relationship with my children, that I will actually be present and be around and enjoy that part of it with them. So yeah, for us, it's just kind of having conversations regularly about, well, what about this? Well, I don't think so because of that or okay, great. And then we're slowly kind of narrowing it down to what it's going to look like and what we're going to do. And, you know, maybe it's taking a couple trips here and there and um, and then one of the things that I now talk to my clients about that I'm very conscious about is a lot of my clients are, you know, in retirement. And they've got a lot of money and by a lot of money, I mean, they've got a lot of money that they're never going to spend doing what they're doing the way that they're doing it. And so the discussion comes down to do you want to pass this all off when you die. Or do you want to see your money kind of working while you're alive. And a lot of like the older generation kind of like you talk, they were really good savers, really bad at spending money. Right. There was no debt. There was just accumulation. And they just, they built up this big nest egg and they sat on it. They did nothing. And so, you know, we're seeing this massive influx of money from generations coming down. And it's going to be the biggest one that we've ever seen. And. So I have a lot of conversations with clients, okay, what about if you started gifting money ahead of time and looking at, you know, pros and cons of that, or if I give you $100,000, it's now your $100,000. And if you do something that I don't like with it. I have no say in it. Right. It's gone. 

Dawn Taylor
My grandparents did these little bits. And I remember talking to my grandma about it. And it was when typically when, like, one of their five daughters had a need where it was like they were struggling or they wanted to do something or they, you know, whatever, whatever was going on. But through our whole childhood, our parents would just get these random, and they were poor farmers. Like, it's not like they were really wealthy, but they would just gift like $3000 or $5000 to their kids. And my parents would always like, put it towards something special. It was like the beautiful oak dining room table and chairs that was bought with that. Right? Just random things. And then when our mom passed away, they started splitting that number between us three children. So we still got my mom's little bits and it was really cute. We'd get these like little checks in the mail and it was like $333.33. So you knew that, like, all the aunties got $1,000 and we'd get our like little chunks, but we bought very specific things with that. Like we bought things that were precious, things that were special things that meant something to us that even now you look at it and you're like, you think about my grandparents. And what that legacy was that they left. And I love that idea. I know Chad and I, he wants an acreage that is like his thing. He wants an acreage. He's the guy who's just gonna putter till he dies. Like he'll be the old man with, like, a 1960s cat pushing dirt around on the yard and building ponds. 

Ron Sutherland
And I thought you were going animal there for a second. I was like, Not Chad.

Dawn Taylor
We talk, we try. I'm like, we just raised cows. And he's like, no, he just doesn't want the commitment to that. But that'll be him. I'll be the ones still working. And then I'm going to, like, randomly book, like, a three month cruise and take off and write like I can see that we're going to have very, very different retirements. And I think it's actually weirdly healthy. 

Ron Sutherland
For sure. It is because you can coexist. And Chad's happy if you take off for three weeks and do whatever you want. 

Dawn Taylor
Oh, he doesn't care. 

Ron Sutherland
He's happy to have his time alone and you respect him having his time alone. And so like it's it's awesome to see that, you know, you've experienced the gifting side of things. And I have a lot of clients that have started to do that. And the other thing that they'll do is gifting experiences. And this is something that you do with your nieces and nephews, right? So it's saying, hey, instead of us hoarding all of our money, what we're going to do is we're going to book an annual trip for everybody, and we're going to go to Mexico, or we're going to Disneyland, or we're going to go and we're going to do something where we get the whole family together, and we spend some time together, and we give them an experience that maybe in their life right now they wouldn't be able to afford. And, you know, that's really cool. And, you know, I'm, oh, probably 25, 30 years away from having grandkids. But something that I want to do is I want to pay for their education, you know? And in my head, I think, like, you know, if I can build up a nest egg to be able to say to my kids, you know, any grandkids that we have, we're going to be the ones to contribute to their resp. We're going to be the ones to pay for the education. So you don't worry about that. You worry about everything else that you know is coming down, that, um, and just trying to, you know, push the quality of life forward. But gift things that are going to matter long term. Right. And so for you, whether it is $1,000 check or a $333 check, it's something that you know outside of what you purchased with it. You remember that coming from the grandparents and it being a special thing and seeing the difference that it did over time for you versus one lump sum. And so that's a lot of the stuff that we do is just, you know, chatting with people about when do you want to give? How do you want to give and how do we do it without paying the government as much money as possible? That's it. So let's give it to the kids, not the government. 

Dawn Taylor
So for our generation, we talk. And I don't know if you've noticed this too. And you're quite a bit younger than I am. 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah, I do have my youth. 

Dawn Taylor
You do have your youth. Yeah. I like the old lady in the room. Um, but, like, you're much more comfortable talking about death, talking about retirement, talking about money, talking about, like, hey, these things are going to happen. And this is actually just our reality. So let's have the hard conversations and let's figure this out. And then there's our parents that are terrified to discuss this. And I've had this conversation so many times with friends, with family, with people that are like, how do I get my parents to be willing to talk about this, to be willing to discuss what you know, what we need in regards to like a will and a power of attorney and an enduring a power of attorney? But also like, hey, what do you want done with your estate? What do you want? Like how to have those conversations without it being like, okay, here's the sticky notes. Go around the house and choose what you want because we're dying any day now, right? Like it's such a, it's a topic that's been made to be so morbid. Right. And it's interesting because it's like retirement is like, woo hoo! When everyone's all excited, but deep down they're terrified because how are we going to do it? And how are we going to pay our bills? And what if something happens? And then on the flip side of it is like, but no one's willing to talk about the end. What do you recommend for kids? For us kids in our 40s that are like, hey, we need to talk to our parents about like, what is this going to look like? Like, we have a mutual friend right now and she's like, I have no idea what any of our four parents or their six parents all together now, like, no idea what any of the six parents have for retirement. No idea what they have in savings. No idea. And nobody will discuss it. So she's like, do I have to have the money put aside to pay for all of these seniors that haven't taken care of themselves, but nobody will talk? 

Ron Sutherland
And that's that's a big, um, not a red flag, but it's one of those, like, you know, when we're doing a plan for someone. One of the things that we ask is, you know, are you going to inherit any money? And they go, oh, I don't know. And then put the question on, say, are you going to have to support your parents in care facilities? And then that is like a whoa, wait a minute. Like inheritance is one thing, but I didn't actually think that I could be in a position where I have to now pay a bill for my parents. And so that conversation, like you said, doesn't happen a lot. Now, um, I would say the one thing is lead by example, get your own done first. Um, my lawyer laughs at me because the day after I got married, I, you know, I said, hey, our will's updated like we're going to come sign them on Thursday if you can show us, you know, are you going on honeymoon now? We need to get the wills done. And so, like I, I've had mine done forever. And I kind of have to, like, people ask me if I've done it when I haven't, then I look terrible. Um, but I would say like, get those done because, you know, myself or another advisor like we can do the best financial plan for you, but if you don't have the legal side taken care of, it can all come crashing down. Um, the other thing is that an easy way of having the conversation, is, you know, chances are you, your brother or your sister are going to be the executor for your parents’ will. And most people that are executors have not done it multiple times. And so when you get put into that situation, it's a lot of work. You have to find a lot of documents and you need to know where to find things. 

Dawn Taylor
Much work. 

Ron Sutherland
And so luckily at the company that I work for that we cannot name for compliance. Um, we have this really excellent executor guide that basically is like filling in a road map on a treasure map. It's just saying, hey, where's all my accounts? What are my passwords? Where are these documents? Like what's in the freezer? What's in the safe, what's, you know, and just putting it together. So if something does happen, they have a roadmap of how to actually get all the information. And so like I obviously have that job for my parents and I know that they've completed this. This paper or this booklet. 

Dawn Taylor
And which, by the way, we'll put, we'll put in the show notes. If you're willing to send it to me, we'll actually put it on the website so that people have access to it. 

Ron Sutherland
And so, you know, then you can go in and you can fill it in and at least you'll know where everything is. And that will start the conversation of, okay, you know, what does it look like? There's also a really good resource that I can send you to put in the show notes, um, which talks about the power of attorney and the personal directive side of things, and many times when we're given that responsibility. Um, so for myself, for example, I know that I have a very different style of investing than my mother does. And if I'm looking after her finances, I'm going to do it in the lens of what would my mom have wanted for her investments? And she's very conservative. She does like risk. She's, you know, she wants dividends versus, you know, some big growth stocks. So I would invest that way. And that's pretty easy to understand. What about the medical side? What about my sister who is dealing with a medical thing? The medical thing is, you know. Does my woman want to have a DNR? At what point do we pull the plug? At what point do we do this? At what point is her quality of life to a point where she doesn't want to keep on going? 

Dawn Taylor
Seven days, baby. Keep me alive for seven days. People can say goodbye and then yank it. All right. 

Ron Sutherland
It's in black and white, right? But like, for a lot of people, like, putting that pressure on a child to make that decision for their parent without actually having a conversation with them, you're always going to wonder if you did it too late or too soon. You're never going to think I did it at the perfect time. And so there are some tools out there where it's a questionnaire we can go through and say, okay, what if, you know, what if I can speak? What if I can't see, what if I can't do these? Like what? What does it look like from a quality of life standpoint? Is it something that I want to have? And so, um, what we're trying to do is we're trying to prepare the executor, the personal directive and just make sure that, you know, you have a roadmap so that you know at what point you're supposed to jump in and do the job that you're signed up to do, because that can create a lot of animosity if you do it too soon. And for me, I've got two siblings and my sister is the one that has the job. But you know what? If my brother and I didn't agree, you know, when she pulled the cord. If that ends up being a thing. Yeah. And. Then that translates into okay, do those feelings break down into when the estate gets distributed? And is that going to be the eventual downfall of the family? 

Dawn Taylor
100% it is. And I'm going to just say this very, very bluntly. If you have children and you have not had these conversations, don't be an asshole. Have the conversations with your children. Because it's not fair to anybody and it's cruel. It is cruel to not have these conversations with your kids about this because like I remember when my mom passed away, so I was 28, she was 52 and my dad was the executor. He was in charge. He's grieving hard, like he's not in a headspace to deal with all the paperwork. And I ended up stepping in and doing all of the paperwork and everything. She had nothing organized. And so when I talk to my dad about it, I was like, okay, so what is there for life insurance? Where is the will? Where's the power of attorney? Like where is all of this stuff? He had no idea. He was like, um, probably in the filing cabinet. He thought that they had $250,000 of life insurance. I found almost 1.4 million. From random credit cards that they had life insurance on, random things. But the passwords, the chaos of that and trying to figure that out, we didn't ever close some things off because we couldn't. Yeah, there's probably still money out there she should have gotten and we didn't know and we didn't have access to anything because nothing had ever been put in place. Right. And I think it's not fair. It's not fair to your kids like we have, we've had a will since we were 19, almost 20. Like literally we got it when we got married and we were children. Yeah. And we've had the living well and the enduring power of attorney and all these things. And we update it every 3 to 5 years and redo it. And it's a whole thing. But like I have a file and it's called if something bad happens, you need this file. And it is in front of my filing cabinet on the bottom row. My executor is my childhood bestie, because she won't be emotionally invested in the same way as a family member would be. But also, I know that she has, and this sounds hilarious, but her and I've talked about it. I was like, you're not going to have a problem pulling the plug. Like. You'll fight people on it, but you'll also like to stand your ground on things and make sure things get done. And you have the resources to be able to handle that. You have the mentality to handle that, and you have the support system around you to be able to manage things like shutting down a company and dealing with all of those things. But we've had that forever and people know where it is, they know what it is. And then there is like, what do we want for a funeral? Do we want to be like–? 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. All the guesswork of it. 

Dawn Taylor
All the guesswork is out of it, right down to like the party I like, literally. I updated every year on my birthday. Right? And I think I've said this before, like. And you and I've laughed about that. But literally it's in there. Like, who do they need to contact, who do they need to call? Like you're in there for paperwork because it's like, no, no, no, you need to call Ron for life insurance stuff. You need to call, like, yeah, like that's a thing. And we need to talk about this. We need to talk about it because it's inevitable we're all going to die. I don't know why people are so upset about death. Like, it's like it's going to happen. It's one of the only guarantees in life. 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. And it's it's tough. Like, I don't want to say that I'm desensitized to it, but I just I see it over and over and over again that I'm no longer shocked by it. And it's, you know, having the conversations, getting prepped for it. Um, even when it's down to, you know, how many professionals do you work with? And, you know, like, why do you have three people doing the same job, you know, find someone that you trust, pick one and make sure that they do a good job for you. But the person that's picking the pieces up after, like, think of that like you're calling one bank, one financial institution, one insurance company, one accountant. Like just, you know, whittled down the amount of accounts that someone has to monitor for you. And, you know, the other thing is like, be a part of the investment conversations with your spouse. But you know, there's so many that says, oh, no, like, you know, the wife takes care of the financials or the husband takes care of the financials. And, you know, when the one that takes care of the money disappears, then the last one is left confused, broken, and trying to learn money in a time where it's the last thing that they want to be thinking about. 

Dawn Taylor
My dad had no idea. 

Ron Sutherland
Right? He had no idea. 

Dawn Taylor
None. The bookkeeping, like, I'll never forget pulling up. She died in a car accident at, like, around seven, 7:20 in the morning and on our way to work. She worked at a country school and. I showed up at the house. We lived nine hours away. We showed up at the house that night. We got there at about 8:00 and we walked in and like, my dad literally said as he's hugging me, he's like, I don't have any clean underwear, which Problem A, the fact that you don't know how to use a washer and dryer is the problem. So we're going to teach you now. But as I'm showing him how to do that, he's like, so my employee has to get paid tonight. And I was like, sorry. What? And like he was on disability, he hadn't been able to work. And I'm downstairs in like, heavy grief, like in the shock of the first 24 hours trying to figure out her bookkeeping system and trying to figure out how to pay this guy. And my dad knew nothing. Like, he didn't know any of it. And because my mom was so unorganized. Like, yeah, sure, the filing cabinet, but nothing was organized in it. I had to go through page after page like. I sat for days doing that, trying to find stuff, and I'm trying to figure out, like, payroll at the end of the day. And I just think that we don't think about those things. We don't think about what would life look like if we disappeared today and someone had to walk into this chaos? Do they know how to take care of this? Do they know how to manage this? Right? Like, have I set them up, set them up for success or failure? 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. And don't don't be a passenger in your financials. Like, know what's going on. And like I have my doomsday binder as well. And actually there's four people in my family, so I have four binders and they're all right beside each other and down to the point that if something happens to me, Morgan knows these are the advisors to talk to after. And there's a list and it goes from top to bottom like they've agreed to do it. And, you know, this is who you call and you're going to be okay. You make this one phone call and everything is going to be fine. And she knows those people and she knows what we're doing, and we go through it. And she hates going through it, but we do it and we chat about it because, you know, the side of you may not be here tomorrow. And on the insurance side of things, I look at, you know, if I'm not here tomorrow, I'm essentially trading off the rest of my income for the amount of insurance that I have today. And if I do, is my family going to be okay? And that's a powerful thing to think about. And I'm, you know, I review it all the time. And I think, you know, if they only get the insurance, not me, are they going to be able to live the life that I want them to live. Yeah, but I also tell my wife that all my insurance is pending just in case, because I know she'd probably have a hit out on me. 

Dawn Taylor
Chad had got a motorbike years ago. Oh my God, it's probably like 12, 14 years ago. And he came home from work and I was making him sign these papers and he's like, what is this? And I was like, nothing. And he's like, okay. And he's like, no, seriously, what is this? And I'm like, oh, it's more life insurance on you. And he was like, what? And I was like, every time you do something stupid, I'm just going to keep increasing your life insurance so that I know I'm taken care of when you die. And he was like, wow, thank you. He's like, did you increase yours? And I was like, no, that's up to you to figure that out. And I mean, we joked about it, guys, I increased mine too. But like we have to have these conversations. We have to have conversations about retirement, about what that looks like, about what we want. If something bad were to happen to us, it's. Right. People think it's so crazy expensive to get a will. It's not as much money as you think. 

Ron Sutherland
Not at all like it's, you know, and I look at it from, you know, what you're paying versus what you're getting out of it, like, the cost is too low. Maybe I don't want to say that, but, you know, like for the for the benefit that a will and a power of attorney and a personal director would bring to you and bring to your loved ones, like that's worth way more than what we pay for it. 

Dawn Taylor
And just to know. Just to know. I apologize in advance, Ron. You are the person. Even though I have life insurance in a bunch of different places, I'm like, just call Ron. He'll know what to do. 

Ron Sutherland
I know, I know, I'm that person for you, and that's okay, I like that. 

Dawn Taylor
Just call Ron and I can deal with chat so that I'll be good, right? 

Dawn Taylor
Yeah. Like there's your one phone call. He'll be able to figure out that piece of it. 

Ron Sutherland
We'll be driving up the next acreage that you buy. And he'll be like, who's that guy? 

Dawn Taylor
Right? And you know, one other thing that I put in there, um, and this is totally, like, as a joke, but it kind of serious I have in there, like, what I want for my funeral. Where I want to be buried, what I want for a funeral, what I want for the party the night before. Because, yeah, there is one. But I also have a list of people that is like, no, , these are my people that, if they want something, please let them go through our home and take something that means something to them. Right? That they might not be like in the will getting money, but it's like, no, no, no, you matter. Like, come on, take something if you want, Lego. If you want a piece of art, if you want some stupid chair, like, doesn't matter. Come and take something, whatever, whatever you want that would make you remember us and laugh. 

Ron Sutherland
I like that. That's good.

Dawn Taylor
Because I'm like, why not? I also jokingly have a job letter for my assistant. To whom it may concern. And it's a reference letter for my assistant, but there's also a note in there to be like, hey, no fighting. Just enjoy life, live, laugh. Right. What is the legacy we want to leave? It's one of the things. And that list changes all the time with like, who's who's in our world and who really matters to us. But it's like. 

Ron Sutherland
I would love to see who gets added and cut off that list. 

Dawn Taylor
What about it? And cut off? 

Ron Sutherland
Oh, a little bit. It's like, is there like a check mark over the years? 

Dawn Taylor
It has changed a lot over the years. We also have funny stuff on our will, though our lawyer laughed really hard when we were doing it because, um, we've interesting things like no one gets anything till they're 45, right? Unless it's a health issue. So if somebody was to all of a sudden like, have a brain aneurysm or have cancer or something was to happen, they can have access to that money in advance to pay for treatments, right? Um, but nobody gets anything at all. But they're 45. And she was like, why? Like, why would you do that? And I was like, because I don't want to financially screw them up. And if they haven't figured out anything with their finances by 45 at that point, not my problem. They're never going to figure it out. And they can do what they want with the money. But we also have a clause that if anyone argues or fights over anything, it literally says in writing, you are considered dead to us and we'll get nothing like you're cut out of the will. Yeah. And I laugh about it. I'm like, so no one's allowed to fight for anything, or they're like, nope, you're out. 

Ron Sutherland
That's good though. And I think that, like the very telling of the person that you are, and I think that anybody that reads that is going to be like, yeah, that makes sense. And this is the intention that it was written and know that you would be very serious about it too. Dead serious. Yeah. No need to fight. It's just stuff. It's just things. So is my money to be made. One piece of advice if you could give somebody one piece of advice right now who is either nervous or they're terrified, or they're just like, I don't even know where to start when it comes to retirement, when it comes to any of this stuff, what would you tell them? 

Ron Sutherland
Um. I think the biggest thing for me is don't worry about what everybody else is doing. They're on a different path or on a different story. They're in a different situation. And there's no cookie cutter retirement plan. There's no cookie cutter, um, retirement dream. And that, you know, you're in a different situation and do what you can do. And if that means you're going to put away $25 or $50 a month and that's all you can put away, then put away that and be excited about it. Be excited that you know you're making a step towards saving for your future, but also taking care of what you're doing today. And people constantly compare with people in the office and nobody talks about their losses. They only talk about their gains. And, you know, it can be very tough in a situation where you know you're in a job, you're the new person, and people are doing all these wonderful things for retirement and you're feeling like you're not doing enough. Um, you know, and just go talk to somebody about it, like go talk to an advisor, sit down and have a conversation and have some goals set out for yourself. And like I said, it doesn't have to be, you know, a crazy amount of money. You're putting away every month. But put something and just know that something's better than nothing. And, you know, if you're moving forward even by a step or an inch, that's better than going backwards or staying stagnant and, yeah. So that's what I would say is just you're different than everybody else. And just remember that and don't compare yourself. 

Dawn Taylor
You know, years ago we had a situation where one of the big threats of what was going on was bankruptcy. Yeah. And everybody around me that I was talking to was terrified. Everyone was just terrified. And it was doomsday and it was everything. And I found a bankruptcy trustee. And I was like, hey, can we talk? And then we're like, yeah, come in for an appointment. And we sat down and we went through every single number. And I was like, what would this look like? What do the numbers look like? What would we have to live off of? What would this actually play out to be? And it was amazing how it was so much less scary than everyone was making it out to be. And I was like, huh, okay, I can handle that. And what's interesting is that the lack of fear around the situation shifted the whole thing. Because I was no longer running scared from it. I wasn't scared of it anymore and I could face it. And that is what shifted everything in regards to what decisions we made, because we weren't running scared. And I think it's the same when it comes to retirement. It's the client that was losing it over. Like, I need $8 million to being like, oh, okay, that is way less of a number. So, now I actually feel like I can save for it. 

Ron Sutherland
Yeah. And from the professional sitting on the other side of the desk. It's a common occurrence that we see, you know, disastrous situations, you know, terrible. And we don't judge. We're here to help. So that's the shame that people are feeling of, I don't want to go to see my accountant or I don't want to talk to my bookkeeper. And, you know, I don't want to see my investment or insurance person or, you know, to have those conversations about how we're behind or we're not doing enough or the, you know, the debt trust here. Um. We've seen it all and just know that, like from my side, I'm not looking at it from a judging standpoint. I'm looking at it from a how do we fix this? And how do we leave you or get you to a point where you're leaving here in a better situation than when you showed up and that's it. And, you know, I'm not having one of those meetings getting up out of my desk and going down the hall and screaming out all the details about how your situation is bad, like, those are private conversations. Those are conversations that stay in the room. And those are, you know, we have a responsibility to do what we can for those people. And, you know, reach out to us whether it is your accountant and, you know, I'm going to see my account right after this. We joked about that. You know, they're not going to, I'm not going to like what I'm going to see, but 

Dawn Taylor
Oh gosh. No. 

Ron Suterhland
It is what it is. Right. And it's, um, you know, I, I trust the advice, trust the situation. And, yeah, it'll be good. 

Dawn Taylor
No judgment, just curiosity, baby. 

Ron Sutherland
That's right. 

Dawn Taylor
Thank you. Thank you for hanging out with me today and for having this conversation. I know you and I are two people that aren't afraid of this conversation, so we do discuss this for anyone listening who is like, ah, you know what? Go to the show notes, TheTaylorWay.ca. Okay, you can check out all of the resources that we listed for Ron. There's also his contact information if you do want to reach out. And if he's not the right fit, he will have somebody who is the right fit. But I do refer everyone to him in my life. Thank you, thank you. 

Ron Sutherland
I appreciate it. 

Dawn Taylor
You're welcome. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for hanging out with us today, Ron. And for those who are listening, guys, it's not that hard, I promise. It's one baby step. Just start somewhere and don't run scared of it because the problem's actually not going to go away. Surprise, surprise. 

Ron Sutherland
It gets worse. 

Dawn Taylor
Right? Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. And again, show notes. Located at TheTaylorWay.ca where you will find all of Ron's info. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, please leave a rating and a review. See you guys in two weeks. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Melanie Verstraete is a woman who’s endured her fair share of hurdles in life, namely involving important relationships. Toxicity always seemed to follow her, whether it was the unfortunate string of stepdads or the unsafe living conditions with her ex-husbands. Until one day, she put her foot down and determined that she was the common denominator in all her misery. 

With that in mind came the start of her journey of self-discovery and self-fulfillment. By putting herself first, she has become a better person and started attracting better people, too. On today’s episode of Taylor Way Talks, we get to know Melanie’s story and how she overcame all of her challenges to rise above as a woman unashamed of who she is.

Who is this for…

Whether navigating through life’s trenches or being plagued by our inner voices, this episode has a little something for all of us. The world may treat us unfairly, and we cannot control its perception of us. Yet, we are able to control how we see ourselves. Melanie and Dawn's conversation exemplifies how a shift in perspective can bring about significant change in one's life.

Guest Bio

Melanie Verstraete, love and relationship expert and founder of The Wild Heart Life, has helped thousands of men and women break out of unhealthy relationship patterns and find true love by understanding the root mechanisms that keep them in a harmful cycle.

Melanie’s own experience with toxic relationships started in an unstable environment growing up with an inattentive mother and a string of unsuitable stepdads. After going through her own second divorce, Melanie had an epiphany about harmful patterns that changed the entire trajectory of her life, and she has dedicated her life ever since to becoming a master coach with the insights and empathy to transform lives.

Guest Links

Email - [email protected] 
The Wild Heart Life - https://thewildheartlife.com 
Instagram - https://instagram.com/iammelanieverstraete 
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/melanie.verstraete.az 
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/themelanieverstraete/

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor
Good morning. Only because it's good morning here. So that's why I'm going to say that today it is me, your host of the Taylor Talks, Dawn Taylor and I, okay, buckle up. We're probably going to say some bad words today. I'm going to just put it out there right now. You may be offended. Deal with it. I'm just. I'm just like, if you haven't listened to a few episodes already, you know that that's kind of how I am. Because today we're diving into how we are the common denominator in our own misery. Yeah, that's right, I said it and we're going to go there. So let's talk to our guest today. Her name is Melanie Verstraete. You can find all of her contact information on the show notes at TheTaylorWay.ca. She's a loving relationship expert and the founder of the Wild Heart Life. She works with people on unhealthy relationship patterns with men, women, all kinds of fun stuff, and finding all the root garbage that's kept us in those harmful cycles. But more importantly for today, her own experience with toxic relationships started in an unstable environment growing up with an inattentive mom, a string of unsuitable step dads, multiple divorces, a bunch of epiphanies, and all kinds of other fun. She's laughing right now because I'm the worst at reading people's bios, but I hope you guys are as excited as I am, because yeah, we're going to talk about the hard stuff today. Let's dive in. Melanie, what do you wish people were talking about? And welcome to the show. 

Melanie Verstraete
Oh, I'm so here for it. 

Dawn Taylor
Um, well, it's truly like what you said. Especially in today's culture. 

Melanie Verstraete
We are such a blame game. I'm the victim. I'm the squeaky wheel giving me all the attention and let me stay here. The problem with that is there's no power there. There's zero power there. Right. So. If you don't like your life, you are the only one who can shift it. You're the only one who could change it, and you're the actual one who chose it now to use it. Lots of people are going to be pissed off, right? So, I'll do a quick little backstory, because this was the realization that truly saved my life. I could say that it saved my life. 

Dawn Taylor
No. Let's dive into this. I'm going to actually pause you for a second. I want to dive into this because. I have heard, I've had this argument with so many people recently that “No, no, no, it's we were trained to be this way. This is literally how we have been trained to be.” The joys of that or that we can train ourselves out of it. Yeah. So let's dive into your childhood. Sure. And what it was that went on in your life that got you to where you were like, “Oh, shit, I might be the common denominator right now in my misery.” 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah. So long, long, long, long story short, um, I grew up without my dad, but now he's in my life, and we're, like, best friends, so it's beautiful. But he wasn't in my life when I was a little girl, uh, a teenager and a young woman. And then I had six step dads by the time I was 21. So, you know, there was a revolving door of men in my life. And luckily, the majority of them were cool. But the one who was with me the longest, you know, let's just be real, was a dick. And she was with me from ages 12 to 18. So really formidable years for a young woman, right? 

Dawn Taylor
Your pivotal years. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yes. He was emotionally abusive. I could never do anything right. And I'll just tell you one quick story, you know, and give you kind of like the climate of that house. Um, I was 16 at the time, and he was in the military, and he would all, no matter what I was doing, he would always hover over me and like, judge me and how I'm not doing everything right kind of crap. And he was a big dude. I'm like five, four. He was like six-two, six-three. And I remember I was washing dishes even though we had a dishwasher. And no, I wasn't a spoiled little brat, okay? I felt like the unpaid maid. Okay. And the unpaid au pair. And so I'm washing dishes and I have like I don't remember why I had so many, so much, uh, like utensils, but there was a ton of utensils for whatever reason. And, um, hand washing them, putting him in the little bin, and he comes over and he's like. He didn't say it in this tone. He said it in quite the dick tone, but basically, like, “Those aren't clean. Redo them.” Right? And at the time I'm 16, he's been in my life since I was 12. And if you know anything about young girls, we get a little sassy around that age. 

Dawn Taylor
No, but yes we do. 

Melanie Verstraete
I was starting to find my voice around that age. Right? Yeah. And he's like, “Wash them again.” Right in his wonderful voice. And I just looked at him and said, “No, they're clean. I'm not re-washing them.” Right. And so we argued back and forth for a minute. And then he goes to like take his two hands and he goes to pick them up and he picks them up like over his head. And he throws them back in the sink with obviously a lot of force. He's a big dude. And I looked down. I could still see the scar today and there's a fucking steak knife in my hand, I kid you not. And I just remember looking down and in complete shock and then like, looking over at him and I said, “You're psycho. I'm telling mom.” And he just looked at me with the straightest face and said, “You deserved it.” And walked away. And that was like the climate of our house for six years. And so I felt very alone, even though it was my mom, my stepdad and two little brothers who I resented at the time because I was their babysitter and I didn't have a life as a young girl. So fast forward. I meet who would be my first husband when I'm 21. He's 31 and I'm not the best judge of character at this point, clearly. Um, there was all kinds of red flags, like, I'll just tell everybody, you see the red flags, you just lie to yourself and you paint them other colors, okay? Because they're clear as day. Like, the red flags were like flare guns, like, don't do it, don't do it. 


Dawn Taylor
But you had also been raised in a house where you had had six step dad's, like, obviously your mom. I mean, not badmouthing your mom, but let's be honest, like, she wasn't really super good at relationships. 

Melanie Verstraete
No, no, no. And she, for whatever reason, I don't know her childhood. We never talked about it, but for whatever reason, she believed financially that she needed a man. She could not take care of herself financially. So every time she got married, it wasn't for love. It was, “I need you to take care of me.” And the funny thing was like, when I got a little older, I was like, “Mom, if this is what you're going to do, then at least marry some dude that has some money.” 

Dawn Taylor
Like, what do you do? At least go for a really wealthy one? 

Melanie Verstraete
Exactly. I'm like, ”You're marrying to be taken care of, but they barely have anything. So what are you doing?” So anyway. Fast forward, fast forward, fast forward. Right. I'm dating and I'm self-sabotaging when good men are coming into my life because I have a deep fear that they're going to figure out I'm not as wonderful as they think I am, and they're going to rip my heart out and leave me. So I didn't trust love. I wore a masculine shield. I had armor around my heart. You were not going to hurt me. I don't cry, I'm not vulnerable. That shit is weak. No, I'm an armor up. Boom boom boom. Didn't know I was doing this, but that's what I was doing, right? And then we get divorced. That's a whole ‘nother story we could get in. So let's just skip past. 

Dawn Taylor
How long are you married? 

Melanie Verstraete
Nine years. We had three kids together. 

Dawn Taylor
Wow. 

Melanie Verstraete
And he wakes me up in the middle of the night because he would do that kind of stuff. He was. He was a total narcissist, and I don't use that word lightly. I think that word is so overused today. 

Dawn Taylor
It's the anxiety of a few years ago. It's everyone's just calling everyone in narcissist. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah, he was a true one and a sociopath and a psycho. And any other labels you want to give him? It was a dark, dark time. But because there was so much dysfunction. Right? I stayed in that marriage. I know that I stayed in that marriage for such a long time, and if he wouldn't have kind of called my bluff, I probably would have still stayed with him because divorce meant I was my mother, and I could not imagine putting my children through the amount of pain that I went through. And so even though I knew it was unhealthy, even though I really didn't even like him as a person, let alone love him as a father, as a husband, as a man. I would have stayed because those were my vows. And that's what a good woman does, and that's what a good person does. And I didn't want to have the scarlet letter of divorce. Right. 

Dawn Taylor
So let's talk about this for a second. So often people. So I grew up in a household where everybody was indecisive, like weirdly indecisive. First time I remember very strongly realizing it was my mom trying to go through a McDonald's drive thru and couldn't even order because she was so overwhelmed by it, and she brought me from the back of the van to do the order over top of her when I was like 7 or 8 years old. Wow. I remember this. And growing up in that, I did the polar opposite where I was like, I'm going to become decisive. I will never not be indecisive because that's ridiculous. Yes, but I did like you did, right? I did the polar opposite where I became too decisive. Right? Like I'm talking. My husband in the morning was like, “We need a second bathroom, we should buy a house.” And I was like, “Okay.” And it was like, done paper signed. By 7:00 that night. We owned a house and we just had final stages and people were like, “Oh, that was really fast.” And I'm like, “Oh, I don't collect dust.” Like I move at a very rapid pace because I refuse to be indecisive. And I don't think a lot of people realize that we are causing just as much damage. Because we aren't actually fixing the toxic trait. We're not actually healing it. We're not actually choosing a better mindset. We are just acting in rebellion of which is just as harmful. 

Melanie Verstraete
So true. Yeah. So true. Because like, in spite of myself, I stayed, right. Even though everything in me was like, what are you doing? Yuck. This is not. He's not even, he's not a good father to your kids. He's not a good husband. He belittles you. He talks down to you. He he he was like a mind fuck, is what he was. So that night when he woke me up the way that he always liked to manipulate me, it backfired on him because he was like, “We should separate. And I said, “Are you crazy? We have three kids together. Like, that is not an option. No. So we should go to counseling.” And he said, “Counseling is for pussies.” 

Dawn Taylor
Oh, you're like, okay. 

Melanie Verstraete
And so, my light was dimmed and my voice was silenced in that relationship. That night, I found my voice again. Dawn. And this is what I said back to him. And I have to share this with your listeners because it's so funny. I said, “Well, maybe if you went to counseling you'd get more pussy.” 

Dawn Taylor
Oh, that is hilarious. 

Melanie Verstraete
And he was so angry. He did not like that at all. I was laughing my ass off and slept really good that night after I said that. So, when I woke up the next morning, like I woke up, meaning it just dawned on me, why am I even with this guy? I don't even know what am I fighting for? This is not even a marriage. We don't like each other. I have to like, make myself have sex with him. He's not a good dad. He's not even a good human. He has, like, a dark soul. What are you doing? And then the thing that gave me the courage to leave when I was judging myself by. Oh, my God, you're getting divorced was, if you say. And at the time, my kids were three, five and seven. If you stay, you're showing your daughter how a man should treat a woman, how a man should treat her? Hell, no. Is that going to be the example? If you stay, you're showing your two sons how they should treat women. No. Like this ends with me. This toxicity that is run amuck. I'm getting tingles as I'm saying, this has run amuck in my family is over. It ends with me. And I filed for divorce. I called his bluff. He just used it to manipulate. He didn't even think I was going to do anything. Then he stalked me. I had four personal protection orders against him. He was in my bushes watching me. Lots of creepy crap, okay. Moved across the country from Michigan to Arizona to get away from him, to save me and my kids, from him because they were either going to end up hating me, or I was going to end up dead or both. So we gotta get out of here. Then I always tell all my clients, “You will keep attracting the same person in a different body until you do the work to heal the parts of you that are trying to person anything, right?” So that's what I did. So I moved across the country for peace and I found more drama and chaos. Right? 

Dawn Taylor
And you met him again in a different person. 

Melanie Verstraete
And he was better. He was better. But it's so ironic because they were both Italian. No bashes to Italians, okay. Not at all. They were both Italian. They were both shorter. They were both. In construction. I'm like, I can't make this shit up. They both had, like, bad tempers. It's just in our blood. Right? That kind of crap. Yeah, but the second one was nicer. He was a better man. But there were still red flags, there were still toxic traits. And he had three kids and I had three kids, and his three daughters hated my guts from the get go, so it was kind of doomed before it even began. 

Dawn Taylor
Okay, let's pause for a second. Because you talked about toxic traits. What are some of the red flags in the toxic traits that you saw in both relationships? Like you said, the red flags were flying. But we've all been in those relationships that after we're like, “Wow, did I actually not see that? Did I just ignore it?” But what were they for you? 

Melanie Verstraete
So, for me, with the first one, he gave a lot of attention and at the time. I looked at it as an abnormal amount of attention. Okay, I'll just say that for a second. And at the time I thought to myself, “Oh wow, he must really like me.” Uh, no, he's a psycho. Okay. Like, the stalker behavior was starting to show itself, and I looked in my mind. I perceived it because I was neglected the majority of my life. My mom was never abusive. What? She was very neglectful. And so, yeah, it was like extra attention, extra texting, extra calling. Like, again, you reflect back and you're like, “Oh, that's too much. It is too much.” Yeah. So there's a balance, right? There's like being chosen and being given attention. And that feels good when somebody desires you. And then there's, like, a psychotic pursuit. It's kind of like the only way. It's too much, and, you know, it's too much. So there was that. And then I had to, like, convince myself to like him. Like what? Like, there was no physical attraction. 

Dawn Taylor
Not even from day one? 

Melanie Verstraete
No. There was no - It took me a year of knowing him before I even dated him. And when I think back about what it was about him that I was choosing, I was choosing somebody who wouldn't hurt me. Oh, how funny. Right? He hurt me almost the most, but in my mind. I knew I would never, like, fall in love with him, and I felt like he was more into me than I was into him. And so if that's the case, I have this upper hand, right? And this is not going on consciously in my mind. And this is my unconscious, my root issues. Right. If he loves me more than I love him, then he can never hurt me. And if this doesn't work out, he could still never hurt me because my heart's not here. And so what he represented to me was what I thought was stability and security. Which is so crazy ironic because it was the most unstable person I'd ever met. 

Dawn Taylor
Did your mom claim to love them and that she always chose? So you just stay out of love and I'll be safe? 

Melanie Verstraete
Yes, exactly. I will stay out. Love is not safe. Because love left me over and over and over again. And I didn't trust men. They left. And so that's why I was, like, armored up, right? I just stepped into my own masculine energy. Because I became the man, in essence, because there was no man that I could trust. And so how could I attract the kind of man that I always wanted, like a real man, a masculine man, a good man that would never be possible because I was the man? So, I was the repellent to all the good ones, and I was the magnet to all the wrong ones. Yeah, so fast forward. I'm in my kitchen. This was about seven years ago, and I'm contemplating now my second divorce because even though the second husband and I, we loved each other, there was so much drama between him and his daughters, and there's codependency, and I got to treat them like they're equal to you and they can talk shit to you. And I'm not going to say anything, and they can disrespect you, and I'm not going to be the man of the house. I'm going to make you take that role because I'm not man enough. And that might sound harsh, but that was the truth of it. And in fact, he told me to put my dick away often. What? Who talks this way to their wife? And I said to him, “Well, I wouldn't have to whip it out if you used yours.” 

Dawn Taylor
So, that is hilarious. 

Melanie Verstraete
So, did I want to be in that, like, leadership role? No, I wanted to give it to you. But here's the thing about us women. And I know that you can totally, uh, you know, agree with this. If you don't lead, we will, and we don't want to, but we'll do that. We will. Yeah, we don't want to, but we will because we have to. Because it's for the survival of our family, for the survival. 

Dawn Taylor
And I think there's also a fine line where we just do naturally anyways because of the world that we've landed ourselves in, where we are so busy emasculating men that we do step up into that role because we don't want to compromise. We don't want to release any control. We don't want to do that. And I do think that for the listeners, like that is a very fine line of where we let them step up. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yes. Yeah. It's the boss babe revolution. I'll just call it what it is. 

Dawn Taylor
Right? Where we're like, no, no, no. We want you to step up and be the man of the household, but we're going to hold you down and not actually let you. And then we're going to blame you for not having a dick. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yes, yes, yes. 

Dawn Taylor
There is a very fine line. I was obviously just as toxic as he was, but unknowingly doing that. Right. But again. I could not have attracted different in that circumstance because I felt, you know, if any of your listeners know the Law of Attraction, if you've heard of the Law of Attraction, right. I felt unworthy. I felt not good enough. I felt I had to prove my worth. I felt that I had to morph myself into whatever it is you needed me to be, so you wouldn't leave me. So, there was so much negative belief around my value, my worth. I didn't have self-love, I had self-hate, I didn't have self-acceptance, I had self-judgment, and because that was the magnet, right? There's no way I could have attracted better. So. I'm having this epiphany of, “Oh my God, you're getting divorced again. What's wrong with you? Two? Two?” 

Dawn Taylor
Now you're really your mother!

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah. You're on your way to be her girl. You better stop this now. Right? And it was. That could have gone down such a negative rabbit hole. But that was an awakening. I call that a spiritual awakening, because I felt like I got, like, smacked awake. And in that moment, this is like, rewind to what you were saying in the beginning. Right in that moment. I realized I'm the common denominator here. Me. And could I have blamed both of them? Since there is a plethora of toxicity. Take your pick. There's a damn buffet of it. Right? But who chose them? Right here. This one? This one chose them. So what part of you is okay with choosing men like this? Marrying men like this, procreating men like this. And I didn't know what the trajectory would look like. Like the path of how I would fix this. But I was determined to fix it. And so I worked on me like it was my damn job. Like I was obsessed. Healthy obsession of fixing what I felt was broken. Now, of course I know none of us are broken, but it doesn't take away from how you feel in that moment. You feel very broken. Yeah. And that changed everything. That's literally how coaching found me. I never set out to be a coach. Actually, I never did. I chose this path of healing, of unbecoming, of shedding all the layers of crap that I took on as my own for me to save my life, to save my children's life, to give us both a beautiful life and in that unbecoming, in that healing, in that holy crap, I feel like inner peace for the first time. Holy crap. I'm actually attracting, like, good quality men. Holy crap. Like, I'm in love with life and everything seems to be like the complete opposite of my other experience. Wow. Okay, this is why all those careers that I had. I kept moving from them because. I was never in love with what I was doing, and I was so in love with who I became and knew that I had to share it. I knew that I had to share it with the world. So that brings me here today, which I love. 
Dawn Taylor
You and I were laughing prior to hopping on this call that we both often speak the truth that people don't always want to hear, but they often need to hear it. And, in that. One of the things I'll often say to clients is like, you need to be out of it sometimes to see it. So did you have to like you had to be, did you end up getting divorced for the second time, leaving that relationship, and at that point was when you could really work on yourself, because that's something that I want to challenge people on too, is like, often we have to get out of the toxic because we can't heal when we're continually having the scab picked. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah, yeah. 

Dawn Taylor
Right. Like we're when we're in the middle of the toxicity. And in that relationship sometimes it just takes space. It just takes space to be like, wait a second, I need out. So my view of this is different. My perspective of this is different. I'm seeing it in a totally different way. How did that play out for you? 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah. What was that decision in that moment that I did a 180? It was “I'm done with this. I will never get in another relationship with a toxic man. I will never do this again.” I'm getting tingles again. With it like that always feels like the truth when I get like. Like the tingles. Yeah, I put me first for the first time in my whole life. And I think that's really important for your female listeners, because we're so conditioned to put the kids first, the husband first, everybody and everything except for us. Right. And then what are we? There's nothing left like we're, that's how you get burnout. That's how you become miserable and jaded. That's how you become the victim because you have, like, drained your own life force energy to give to everybody else. And so that moment I made the decision that my life is going to be about me. It's me. It's my time, finally my time. Because my whole life was about everybody else. It was never about me. No wonder it was so damn miserable. I was trying to make everybody else happy, and I was miserable in trying to please everybody else. And so in that decision, right, it was the rest was easy because I was like, “You're out. Like, leave, get out of the house. We're getting divorced. I'm so done. I cannot do one more second of this.” And that's one thing about me. I have so much. Probably not as much. Nowhere near as much tolerances I once did. But it's like I put so much of myself in everything I do in all my relationships, including those shitty marriages, that if you keep pushing me and keep showing me that you're you don't value us, you don't value me, and you keep showing me your bad side eventually. Anything ever felt for you has just been ripped out like it is gone. And so I can just go, like a lot of men would say, that's cold. No, I'm just it's over. Like there's nothing left. Like you had the opportunity over multiple years to. show me the man you are. And you did. And so therefore I'm done. Right. So that's where I came to with that. And then again, like it was about me. And then of course, my children of course. Right. But I stopped dating. I didn't even want to go on another date with another guy, and I didn't even know who I was. That was like the scariest thing, Dawn. I was like in my early 40s, not even knowing who I am outside of my rules. And that was such a beautiful journey. Like, there's no words to actually describe the path that I went down. It's truly the word is ineffable, right? Which means there's no words. 

Dawn Taylor
I love that. I work with ICI clients all the time that are dealing with this right and losing themselves in it. And my husband, I had a conversation a while ago where he's like. He said. “It feels like women just like all of a sudden, they're done. Like they just like, get up and they walk.” And I laughed and I said, “You know what they said women are really good at? Death by a thousand cuts.” Yes. And then all of a sudden, the tire severed. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah, it is because we show you. We ask you. It's not that there wasn't any communication. We're like, we're pleading with you. Please do this. Please change this. Please hear me. Please see me. Right? Please. 

Dawn Taylor
Well, we'll be very vocal about it. Yeah. And all of a sudden, though, I said it, it always comes across as very aggressive because all of a sudden women are like, “We're done. I'm out.” There's like, it's non-negotiable. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah. And the guy's like the deer in the headlights. Like what? What? 

Dawn Taylor
And he's shocked and didn't I didn't see this coming. 

Melanie Verstraete
You're like, what? Every day, right? 

Dawn Taylor
And it's so true though. It is so true. 

Melanie Verstraete
It is quite comical. Right. 

Dawn Taylor
Because it is. And we, we, we work through it so differently. Right? From men to women. I know my husband and I have had that conversation where he's like, “If I'm not hearing you, can you literally look at me and go, death by a thousand cuts. So that I know that, like, oh, this is you really needing me to hear you right now? Because this could end really badly for our marriage. Well, I look like I might need you to be very loud about it.” And I was like, “Oh, I will. 100%. Well, don't you worry.”

But the majority of people don't, so. We are the common denominator in our misery, right, where we do have to figure it out. We have to figure out our relationship with love. We have to figure out our relationship with people. We have to figure out how to bond and how to connect, and how to do all these things that we didn't learn as kids, as children, in neglectful families, homes, lives, or just in healthy homes that we still have to unlearn things when we get into relationships one day. Yeah, but let's talk about this in regards to other things in our lives. When we start, right, so it's like it's easy to point it out in a relationship and be like, “Oh my goodness, I've chosen ten of the exact same men.” or “I've chosen two of the exact same men.” Yeah, and I'm laughing only because when you said like they were both Italian and they were both toward and they were both right, it's also looking at like their character traits to be like, what is the double edged sword of these. Right. That could be showing up as a positive and one in a negative and the other. And it's actually the exact same horrible trait. But. We also use this in work. We use this in health. We use this in all of the things. Don't we? 

Melanie Verstraete
If it's showing up in one aspect of your life, it's everywhere. 

Dawn Taylor
Totally. 

Melanie Verstraete
I find that maybe there's just more pain associated with one of them versus the others. Yeah. So it just depends, right? It could be. It could be your work. It could be your body that's suffering. It could be your relationship. It could be any of them. Right. But the same thing that made you choose the wrong partner over and over and over again is the same thing that will keep you from having the overall fulfilling life that you want. There's some kind of limitation or belief system or, or pattern that you've taken on that keeps you in these little boxes. Right? So if it's unworthiness, like for me, unworthiness was a root of a cause of why I did the things I did. Well, then that also showed that I never made more than $100,000 in any of my careers. And aside from coaching now. Right? No, because I've done the work to rip that root out. But I did medical device sales, very lucrative. I, I was a copier sales rep, very lucrative. I was a designer for Ford Motor Company, very lucrative. So I had coveted careers that took education, time and tenure to get there. Right. And I never got over like 110, 120. Never. Why? Because my program, right. My worthiness was I'm only worth this. 

Dawn Taylor
Yeah. This is my limit. 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah, this is my limit. So. It's like, you know, when people go to change their body. Like that seems to be the most common, let's say, New Year's resolution, right? And I guess I'm going to lose 20 pounds. I want to get ripped. Whatever. Right. It's like, yeah, the reason it doesn't work, that's actually statistically, I think the last time I checked was like 93% of all New Year's resolutions fail, because if we're overweight, as an example, right, then we have a self-image of overweight. And so that self-image lives in the unconscious, lives in the nervous system, lives in the root cause. But we're the 95% of our autopilot, right? But we're taking the 5%, which is in our conscious thinking mind saying, I am going to lose 20 pounds, get ripped, get shredded, get beautiful, get hot, get sexy. Whatever it is you say to yourself. And then we use our sheer will. The 5% to go, go to the gym, start to eat right, do all the right things right. But then what happens? Two weeks? Three weeks, if you're lucky, a month. And then you're basically like, fuck it. Well, why? Because your self-image, which lives in the 95% of your autopilot, which is the same thing that chooses the wrong partner, which is the same thing that stays in the job that you hate. It's all the same thing, right? Is the same thing that is operating you here. So, until you change the image you hold of yourself, until you get into the root cause of why are you overweight to begin with if you don't like it? Right? It's not what society thinks, it's what you think. Do I love myself in my body or do I want to look better, to feel better? Whatever. I'm not here to judge how anybody looks. It's you, not society. Right? So, that's the problem. None of us are getting to the root cause and then, of course, you get discouraged. “Oh, I suck, I'm a failure. I just should just give up.” And then it just gets worse and worse and worse. Because your inner talk, your self-talk, is so toxic to yourself, it's so detrimental to you. 

Dawn Taylor
Well, it's also who we're surrounded with, right? We've all had those times where we go to make a big change in our lives, and the people around us are like, “What are you doing?” And then we want to fit in and we want to have community. 

Melanie Verstraete
Eliminate those suckers! 

Dawn Taylor
And we want to be part of all those things. And it does. It becomes really, really hard to go, “No, I don't do that.” or “No, I don't want to do that.” or “No, that's not my lifestyle.” And people struggle with that. People struggle horribly with that. You have to suddenly go to this place of rejection. And I know I've always said and so I've dealt with so many random health issues over the years and the majority of it comes from having a brain aneurysm when I was 17, and it's just caused some chaos. It's just caused some chaos in my body, right? Like I doubled my body size in five months on steroids and like, my system was weakened. And because of that, it causes other weird complications. And that's, it's just the reality of my physical body, and that's fine. But it's funny, the judgment that I get from, like the IVs that I do and how I eat and what I do, and you know, how much I take care of myself physically to stay alive. The judgment I've gotten over the years, and I remember looking one time and going, “I'm so sorry that you hate yourself so much that my loving myself is intimidating you.” And is a turnoff. Because I don't do these things because I hate my body. I do these things because I love my body. I don't do these things because I hate my life. I do them because I love my life. I want to keep living. So when I don't eat wheat or I don't eat sugar, I don't go for the desserts or I don't do those things, or I put more time into like having a nap or going for a walk or going in my row or whatever it is, whatever it is that I'm doing. Right? It's not a rejection of you because I'm choosing me. 

Melanie Verstraete
You have to choose you over and over and over and over again. Yes. On everything. And I think that is even harder for women than it is for men, because we are so deeply ingrained with choosing other over us, choosing husband, his needs, choosing children's needs, choosing. You know what society says makes you a good woman. “You're bad. You're a bad woman. You should wear a scarlet letter if you do this.” Like, you know, I'm making a joke of this, but yeah, it's true. You have to care more about what you think of you than anyone else thinks of you. Because you have to live with you. You have to live with your choices. You have to live with looking yourself in the mirror and hating yourself, or loving yourself or somewhere in between. Right? But if you don't love the shit out of yourself, your life can't be beautiful. It really can't because you're like this little pinball of, like, pleasing the outside world so that you feel better. You can never feel better in that, in that choice, you can never feel better. 

Dawn Taylor
So for the person who and this is something I had to overcome based on my childhood and my upbringing, for the person who's listening, that goes, but that's selfish. That is something that, you know, I want to serve my kids and my husband and I want to do those things. Yeah. What do you say to them? Because I think there's a fine line. I do think that there's a fine line between self-absorbed and selfish where you're just like, “No, I am everything, and you are nothing.” Yeah, right. And I think part of it is a definition. And the piece of it going, no, no, no, I love me so much I can give, I can serve, I can take care of, but in a way that it's not harming me. And it all comes down to like healthy boundaries on that. What do you say to that person who says you're just being selfish and making it all about you? 

Melanie Verstraete
Yeah, but that's okay. I could be selfish and I I'm good with that because here's the difference of, like, the quality of a human that I am now in this energy, in choosing me and in being so-called selfish, which is bullshit, but let's just call it what it is for now versus who I was before, who I was before was tired. Who I was before had lots of self-loathing and self-hatred, who I was before abandoned myself over and over and over again to make everybody else happy. Because if I made me happy, then I'm bad because I'm selfish, right? Who I was before was a shell of a woman, of a mother, of a wife, of a human. Since I've decided to put me first, who I am now has an abundance of energy to fill into everybody's fucking cup that comes into my existence. Like, because I fill my own cup first. Every day, I have my one hour of me time. It's my non-negotiable. No matter what, it's my time. Because I do that. I am so much better of a mother. I am so much better of a woman, of a coach, of a lover, of a human, of a friend, of a daughter, of just, like. I always have tons of energy. Before I was like, “Oh, oh, I got nothing.” Like, so drained. And now there's so much like I'm always filling everybody's cup so easily. It's like I have an endless supply of energy to give. So, don't buy into when you love yourself. You're selfish. Don't buy into when you come first. It means you're wrong and you're bad. If you want to think about your children as a mother, for the women who have kids. What example are you setting for your kids when you're a depletion of a human? Then, you are telling your daughters that that's how they should be, and you're showing your sons that that's the kind of woman they should have and that they don't matter. You don't matter. You, the person, the woman, the mother. You don't matter. We all matter more than you. That's basically what you're saying. So to add to what you're saying of like, there's people who are like, self-absorbed, I think that there's always a healthy amount of selfishness, and it doesn't have to have the negative connotation. My life got significantly better and so did my children's lives when I became fucking selfish. Okay, like that's the reality of it. When I was like, hey, wait a minute. I just spent my whole life making everybody else more important than me. And look at me. I'm miserable. I'm in survival mode. I'm always, like, tight and tense, and I'm going to get myself sick. Actually, if I stay on this path, like some kind of disease is going to manifest itself in my body because I'm always like this, right? I'm always in tension. I'm not living this way anymore. If that makes me selfish, then I'll wear the shirt proud. Selfish. Selfish AF. Right?

Dawn Taylor

Well, and it's interesting. So Oxford English Dictionary defines selfish as of a person, action or motive, lacking consideration for others concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure. And I wonder sometimes if we misinterpret words. Right off the bat, I. If you were to ask anyone in my world how many times I say define it, they laugh because I'm always like, can you find that? What's the definition of that? I'm curious what that actually means, because we use words so powerfully that we don't actually know what the definition is. So, everyone be prepared to be mad because I'm saying it. How much of it is that we believe that we are being selfish by choosing ourselves? And how much of it is a martyrdom that we have taken on in a victim mentality that makes us feel valued? That makes us feel seen, that makes us feel like we are enough because we are a martyr for somebody else, and we are actually destroying ourselves for somebody else, because we think that's what's going to get us a trophy one day. 

Melanie Verstraete

A lot of us are addicted to our suffering, our story, and the attention that we get. Look at him. He was so bad. I was such a good wife. I gave him everything. And then he cheated on me. And then I'm just, you know, throwing stories out there. Martyrdom stories. I gave everything to my children and they disrespected me. 

Dawn Taylor

I remember when a client said this time and I was like, do you know the definition of sacrifice? And she was like, what in here? I'm going to look it up really quick because I laughed hard at the time because I was like, ah, literally an act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to God or to a divine or supernatural figure. And I remember looking at her going, so you've slaughtered yourself. And she just she's like, took a step back. And I was like, so you're literally killing yourself. 

Melanie Verstraete

She was, she didn't realize that. 

Dawn Taylor

And I think that is a thing. Right. And when we're raised old-fashioned, when we're raised in religion, when we're raised and I'm a Christian, so I'm not saying that this isn't like that I wasn't raised in this. But when we are raised in this belief that we are always less than and that we are called to suffer. Yeah, I think that there is a time and a place. I think that there is a definition on that, that we are attaching to be victims, to stay victims because we have convinced ourselves that to choose ourselves is selfish. One of my favorite things in the world is “I love you, but I love me more.” And it's a shifting of our standards we've set for ourselves. It's been a shifting of our expectations that we put on ourselves. Yeah. That's not like you said. It's funny like the selfish. If it's not selfish, I don't think that it is selfish to love ourselves. It is not selfish to give a shit about ourselves. It's not selfish when. So in friendships, I always tell people like, if you ever need to cancel, say the word. Even with clients, I'm like, I am fully giving you, like, I have a lunch next week with a friend. And I said, look, I know your world's chaotic right now. I'm giving you 100% permission to bail. And she was like, thank you. I was like, not even a question. Like, no judgment. I'm not upset. I was like, the fact that you are choosing yourself, the fact that you know where your capacity is and you're not going to sacrifice your mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, relational health for me matters because I don't want you to. 

Melanie Verstraete

Exactly. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

And that's where we need to shift those words, even. Right. 

Melanie Verstraete

It's the program. It's the conditioning. And you should just stop buying the bullshit. It's like. It's like the good girl, right? The good girl, the good woman. The good girls don't write. If you do this, this makes you a slut. If you do this, then you're a bad wife, right? 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, gray hair on a woman is awful, and gray hair on a man is distinguished. That's the one I always get. 

Melanie Verstraete

Mhm. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack there but like. The simplest way for me to put what the root cause is of us having crappy relationships, or us not having the kind of the quality of life that we want. Your relationships with others are a direct reflection to your relationship with yourself. And I don't care what anybody says. That is 100% the truth. And I know there's lots of people to be like, “But I like myself.” But do you really examine your inner dialogue? Examine how you talk to yourself, examine what you think you're worthy of. Do you put yourself in this little, tiny, insignificant box of less than, not good enough? I need to prove myself somehow, right? Because if you do, then your reality has to reflect that back to you. Your outside world is a reflection of your inside world. Not this big world. Your own little baby world, right? So if you don't like it, the only way to start to change it is to address the inner game. Address the inner dialogue. Address the inner relationship you have to address. What are my thoughts? What do I feel? What are my beliefs? What am I taking on? Thi is true on a daily basis, right? Am I looking at my past and living there? Well, of course that's all you can recreate. You're powerful, okay? We're all co-creators. We're in, and God flows through all of us, right? So if you hate yourself, like, let's look at that for a minute. So if you hate yourself, let me help you reflect a little bit different then. Then you hate what God created. Really? Do you really hate what God created? Who are you to hate on God's creation? Like, let's just put it out that way for a second, right? If you want to be stuck in your martyrdom and be like, “Yeah, but my mom. Yeah, but my dad. Yeah, but this happened to me, okay.” You're going to hate yourself because of that. You're going to have the audacity to hate God's creation. No, I'm pretty sure. No. So love your damn self. You're not selfish. The only way your life is going to start to get better is if you actually give a shit about you. You have self-acceptance, self understanding, self-respect, self-acknowledgement, self-love, self-care, all of it. And then you feel better. And then imagine how much if you're a natural giver and you like to give and you like to be of service to others, you can even imagine what a beautiful service to others that you can be when you get yourself to that place. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. It is so true. It is so true. So for somebody listening who's like, “Oh, that's me, I am, I am a victim, I am a martyr. I'm now seeing right. I'm now seeing that I am the common denominator in my craziness and my head.” Whatever it is, whatever it is. What are some first action steps that you would recommend that they take? 

Melanie Verstraete

Oh, okay. Well. Listen to your intuition. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay. So I'm going to drill you on this because this is one of my pet peeves. This is one of my pet peeves with people that talk is we all talk in verbiage, and we all talk within the language of what it is that we do and who we are, and nothing is like an actual tangible thing, and then people feel stupid and they feel like they're not doing it and they're failing at it. So when you say, listen to your intuition, I'm going to drill you on this. What exactly does that look like? And what does that mean to you? 

Melanie Verstraete

Sure. So when I say listen to your intuition, I say this and I'll tell you what it means to me and give you, like, examples of what it could mean to you. I say this because your intuition is always right. Your intuition is never wrong. It is your North Star, and it is in essence, your connection to source, to spirit, to God, to infinite intelligence, whatever you want to call it. Okay? Because we have not really been taught to listen to that. So other people call it your gut, your inner voice, your knowing. I know that, I just know, and I don't need to make sense of it. I just know, right? For me. My intuition is the first thought. It's like this. Like, you go to make a decision and your intuition is like, oh, and. it can sometimes sound more like a whisper, so it can just come as this. It's your first instinct. But I will tell you that if you're not used to listening to it, if you haven't quieted your own mind yet, what you're going to hear is your shit talker or your inner critic, right? So your intuition might be like “Take that job offer.” Right. As an example. Oh yeah, take that job offer. And then your inner critic, your inner critic was like. “Don't do that. You're not even going to make a lot of money. You don't even like it anyway.” La la la, telling you all the reasons. The bad ideas, right? Yeah. Because that voice has been trained over the years and you've listened to it, right? Unknowingly, it's louder. And so we will tend to listen to that. Your intuition is never negative. If you hear a voice and it's negative or it's attached to anything negative, it's not your intuition. It's your old program. It's your mom, it's your teacher. It's the high school bully. It's not you. Okay? Your intuition is this inner knowing. And sometimes it doesn't even make sense. Sometimes it sounds irrational and illogical. Like you could be driving in the car and you're on your way to go to, like, Starbucks as an example. Right? And your intuition is like, make a left here and go to this bakery and you're like, “What the hell? Why would I do that? I don't want anything over there.” Right? Yeah, but you need to listen because all the things that you want, that your desire, your intuition knows, God knows, source knows. And when you listen to your intuition, you are always on your right path. All the things that you've ever wanted and not wanted. Your intuition knows the way. You could call it your higher self to whatever verbiage. It's all the same. So, when you listen to you, your inner knowing, and you tune out what everybody else is saying, you can never be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Dawn Taylor

So I often recommend people start with asking like, “Do I even like this food? Do I want to eat that thing? Do I like this shirt?” Literally, start really tiny because this is a muscle. It's a muscle inside of you that you have ignored for a very, very long time. 

Melanie Verstraete

Yeah, and I can, I'll add to that even. How about every day you just choose this. It’s going to be a great fucking day. How about that? Like, how about how about if you look at every day as a new life, like literally look at it as a do-over a redo and it's a chance. 

Dawn Taylor

It's a chance to completely redo whatever has gone on. 

Melanie Verstraete

Yes. And you, you're not. And that helps you be more present. That helps you be more in the now and you're not stuck in your head and in the past and all the things that went wrong yesterday. Today, it is my intention that it's going to be a good day no matter what. I'm making it a good day because I'm choosing it. It doesn't matter if I get stuck in traffic. It doesn't matter if my boss tells me off. It doesn't matter if somebody is mean to me at the grocery store. I am choosing to feel good no matter what. 

Dawn Taylor

And I love that. And I think that it's those little tiny things. People think it's like this big, massive shift that has to happen. And often it's just going, no, I'm going to choose in this moment to laugh. I'm going to choose in this moment to find happy. I'm going to choose in this moment. You can live your life scared. We can live our lives in fear. We can live our lives in all of those things. But it was quite a few years ago. I remember walking into a coffee date with a friend, and I had had the greatest morning, and I'd want a contract for work. And I was like, I was so excited. And it was, this is like pre-business days, one of my own companies. This is a long time ago and I was so excited and we just found out we were getting a big tax return. Like it was just like one of those days that you're like today's the day I should buy a lottery ticket because all the good things are happening. And I walked in and I was like, “Hey, how are you?” And she was like, “Oh.” And I immediately felt myself dim. It was like a dimmer switch on who I was, and I was like, I am not safe to feel this happy and this excited right now. And I've often used this. Use this as an example with clients at the moment that I was like, “Oh, shit.” Like, I just hard-dimmed me and I was like, oh. And she's like, “How are you?” And I was like, “The same.” And it was like this out-of-body experience where I was like, what the hell did I just do? What did I just say? Like, I should have walked in here being like, crazy, right? And I couldn't, I couldn't, and I'm not saying it's because she couldn't handle it because I didn't give her the opportunity to. So I don't know how she would have reacted or responded. But I went home that day and I sat down and I was like, who in my inner circle right now? Could I actually phone and have them be excited for me for all these wins today? And guess what? There was maybe one. Oh, yeah. And it was a big aha for me. And like oh so I am the common denominator that's attracting really miserable humans around me that are always suffering, always unhappy, always like oh I hurt or oh I this or oh my kids that. And I'm not saying go through and just like, wipe all these people out of your life. But for me, it was this big moment of like, what if I actually showed up the way I authentically feel? And some of those relationships just naturally died off. And I think a piece of it is because I got too busy and I didn't have time for people anymore, and I shifted the game. I started playing a different game in that way. But also, I wasn't willing to be a victim anymore. And I wasn't willing to show up in that way anymore. And I'm laughing as I say this, or hesitating as I say this because I'm like, “Oh shit, some of these people might listen to this podcast.” And you know what? It was never a lack of love for them. It was never that. It was never a rejection of them. But I had to choose me. I had to choose me in those moments to be like, “I no longer want to dim that light. I no longer want to suffer in that way.” And when you said earlier, what our relationships are around us is like, our relationship with myself and I have some of the coolest people around me that celebrate all of the wins. We all celebrate each other's wins. We also are there for each other's losses and we pick each other up and you know, we don't talk every day. You know, we don't see each other every week. Like it's a totally different relationship. And it's so beautiful and I feel so loved in them. And that would be, I don't know, my challenge to anyone listening is. Any area of your life that feels unhappy or feels uncomfortable, or isn't where you want it to be. What's going on around you because you are the common denominator. 

Melanie Verstraete

And something I don't think a lot of people talk about enough is when you are going to touch on what you were just saying about your friends naturally falling off. When you do choose the work to heal, if that word resonates or unbecome or unlearn or just become better people will. People will naturally just fall off, like, relationships will naturally just. And sometimes it can feel lonely, but know that who's meant to be in your circle will stay, and they're either going to rise with you or they're going to, and that's okay. Like, that's their life. That's their path. That's okay. Right. But like you said, you dimmed your light when you felt like the energy of that, that woman. It's like if you know that about yourself, right? And you know that you can do that, then you either need to isolate for a little while until you feel stronger in that. Or only surround yourself with the people that will help you rise. And in the beginning, a healing journey. That's kind of like what starts to happen. There's like this cocoon, self-isolation. Because you can't unknow, you can't unsee. You see, everybody is in essence not so healthy traits. And you're like, “Oh, I don't want that anymore. Too much negativity, too much judgment, too much drama, too much whatever.” So, like, again, what you said, choose yourself in those moments you decide to stay in when you would normally have gone out and been with all the friends that just like to talk shit about everybody and you're like, you know what, I don't want to do that anymore. Choose you by staying home and not doing it anymore. 

Dawn Taylor

Honestly, one motto that I recommend everybody take on. It's not a rejection of you. It's a love of me, but also I love you. But I love me more. 

Melanie Verstraete

Yeah. And if not, don't see them in their flaws. See them in their sovereignty. See them in their divinity. See them in their power. Right. And sometimes it takes you to see them in their power, for them to see themselves in their own power, because they're so used to their own patterns, their own negative beliefs, their own unhealthy, toxic traits. Right. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that's so true. I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Melanie, for hanging out with a city, for being vulnerable, for being open, for having this conversation, this conversation that we know will make people upset with us. But it's a love, people. 

Melanie Verstraete

It comes from love. 

Dawn Taylor

It totally does. 

Melanie Verstraete

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. 

Dawn Taylor

You are so welcome. For those of you listening. Thank you for hanging out. I hope there's something that you heard hits home today. And if it does make you uncomfortable. Well, we're talking about probably a really big sign that you need to sit and resonate on that for a second and look at yourself and not in a negative way, but like, no judgment, just curiosity. What is it about what we've said is offending you? Or hurt or made you feel uncomfortable, because that's where there's some really cool opportunities for you to shift or change or grow. Join us again in two weeks for another cool topic. Please tell your friends. The more people that are listening but also are open to these conversations, the better. Think of the conversations you can have with some friends over these podcast episodes. Check out the show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca. For more information on Melanie and all of her stuff that she has going on. She's a powerhouse, as you could tell, so if you are looking for some support, you know she's your girl. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. And please don't sit in it alone. Melanie and I are both here to support you. Talk to you guys later. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Don Gleason is a man who knows a thing or two about career changes. He has worked with military personnel and aided them in finding careers in post-military life. As he has witnessed and experienced firsthand, he knows that these transition periods aren't a walk in the park. As part of this episode, he discusses what makes career changes so challenging and what we can do to make the process easier. 

Who is this for…

Our world is beholden to a cutthroat culture regarding careers. While some of us toil in the corporate world, others live the life of job-hoppers just looking to put food on the table. We cannot help but get attached to the statuses and titles we have amassed in our careers and in turn, let comparison steal our joy. This episode is for anyone who's part of the workforce having difficulty navigating through these tough roads. 

Guest Bio

As an Executive Director with the Maxwell Leadership Certified Team, Don Gleason holds his certification as a speaker, trainer and coach. Combined with 41 years of experience working with people to achieve their personal and professional goals, Don is focused on the mantra “Grow Leaders Who Want to Grow.” His goal is to raise them to Achieve New Heights in their personal lives and professional careers. Don believes that it’s only through intentional action, and the prioritizing of these actions, do ultimate results become reality.

Guest Links

 

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/don.gleason.39/ 
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/don-gleason/ 
Achieve New Heights on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/achieve-new-heights/ 
Essentialism (mentioned) - https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Greg-McKeown-audiobook/dp/B00IWYP5NI/ 
Everything is Figureoutable (mentioned) - 
https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Is-Figureoutable-audiobook/dp/B07RQV9QNP/

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey hey, hey. It's me. Don Taylor, if you've not figured out I'm your host yet, we were doing something wrong. I get to chat with someone with a common name today. His name is Don Gleason. And what are we diving into? We are going to dive into this whole get a job thing. This whole idea on why it's so hard to find careers, why it's so hard to transition into it. But before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about him because he's a super cool guy. He is an executive director with the Maxwell Leadership Certified team. He is a speaker, a trainer, a coach with 41 years of work experience working with people trying to achieve personal professional goals. But one of his biggest things is raising them to achieve new heights in their personal lives and professional careers. And so one of his things that he does and was actually just doing right before this call was, and with a group of people, helping people that have come out of the military, army, things like that, trying to figure out how to get a job, how to get into everyday life again. And prior to this call, we had a really cool conversation on this and headspace around it. And never mind, we're just going to dive in and we're going to start this whole episode today. But yeah, welcome to the show, Don. Thank you so much for being here. 

Don Gleason

Thanks, Dawn. I'm really excited about it. And I love this topic. And I'm gonna have to go back and listen to that other one you just talked about. Hopefully that was a recording because I want to hear. I try to get as much as I can to understand the psyche of people, military, but not military as well, about what's holding them back, because I can't help them if I don't really know what their problem is. Right. And it's very diverse. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. So let's dive into that even today. What do you wish people were talking about?  

Don Gleason 

You know, I wish people were really talking about the depths of what it takes to find a job. We we get on the surface level, you know, you got to write a resume, you got to have a LinkedIn profile, you got a network. But what does it really take to do that? Just just pick networking. For example, I was talking to a young man yesterday. I've been working with him for three years. I've helped him get two jobs. He keeps getting let go from those. So I'm trying to get him into another one and he's just convinced nobody wants to help him. And I said, you know, “How are you helping yourself in the networking?” And I said, because Zig Ziglar, right. You got to help enough other people get what they want and they'll help you get what you want. But most military, they walk in, ask the question, “Do you have a job for me?” Well, nobody's just standing there with the job. You got to show me your personality. Show me your perspective. Show an interest, maybe help me. Right. And it's a two way street. And then I'll help you. So it's that deeper level. That's just one example of a deeper level we've got to get people to think into. So my answer is wish they were talking at the deeper level. And I've got some more things we can talk about, 

Dawn Taylor

No, for sure. So let's backtrack in your story, what is your history that got you to this place because you've had some big career transitions in your life.  

Don Gleason

You know, getting out of college. I'm that guy that went back in 1982 and companies actually sent rejection letters, which they don't anymore. So you now you submit application after application and never hear a word. Yeah. And and sometimes even the company goes, they say, let's set up an interview and then they never show up. And they complain about the people not showing up, but the companies now are doing the same thing. So anyway, I had 454 rejection letters back in 1982 when I graduated college. That process really helped me think into what am I saying? What am I selling, who am I trying to get to? So it was it was a middle of a recession. So I joined the Air Force for four years and I stayed for 27. Absolutely loved it. But I got out in 2009, I retired and I said, okay, now I got to go through this process again. So I really dug in deep into what I wanted to do. It wasn't just “I want to work in a job in engineering. Let's see what I get.” It was, I've never really liked construction. I'm really not a design guy, at least not on buildings. I like wastewater treatment plants and water plants, but I really enjoy working with soil and the groundwater in the soil and the flow of the groundwater, right. And hazardous waste and how we keep them out of that. And so it was round in that area, and I got really specific, and I started looking for those companies that do that. And I really only had a handful of interviews and I got a great job. Booz Allen Hamilton brought me on board. I stayed for nine years. And when you think about the statistic that says 45% of military leave their first post military job within 12 months. And I stayed for nine years. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. That's impressive. 

Don Gleason

There's something there right now. I'll admit it. The five year point things happened in the company and I rotated to another area, and that was really struggling. And I struggled there for three years, traveling almost every week. But I felt the purpose, I felt a mission. I was helping people. Right. And when things finally changed in the company, I said, “Okay, um, time for me to go do my own thing.” And I dreamed about that for a long time. So, now it's kind of fun to hang your own shingle. Back in 2017, speaking, training, coaching, especially the coaching aspect. And then I started a nonprofit in 2020 just as COVID hit. And we did that for three years, and I stepped away from that just over a year ago. My partner and I were working in different directions and we just weren't together anymore. So I just, I stepped away and then back to my own company. But it's, I keep coming back to that career transition coaching. I really don't like seeing people struggle in the wrong job or struggling to get the right job. 

Dawn Taylor

So a couple thoughts on this. I see this all the time. Even in my own life, I was the kid who. And maybe I was hyper independent, but I was the kid who wanted to buy a stereo and asked my parents. They said no, they weren't. My parents did not have a ton of money growing up. It's not that they were wealthy, so we got things like garbage cans and bedside tables for Christmas gifts because we needed them and they were necessities in our home, right? We still had fun. We still  had a beautiful life, but they weren't just going to buy me a stereo because I wanted one. So I took a full time babysitting job for a family of four when I was 12 years old, for an entire summer. I was that kid. I was the kid who raised rabbits in the backyard and sold them and babysat all the time. And like, I was this constant hustle from a probably a way too young age of, like, know if I want that thing, I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to get a job and I'm going to do it. So I've always had that defiance in me. I've always had that. I don't even know what totally had a word it because it's not even a defiance. It was more just like this genuine curiosity, but also stubbornness. Like I am more stubborn than most people I've ever met in my life. And so when I wanted a job, I just got one, right. I am coming from a background of trauma. I think it was that I wasn't terrified of rejection at that point. So I would just, I was like, no, I don't care. Tell me you like me, tell me you don't send me the rejection letter, fly out or there's 100 more businesses and someone's going to hire me. And there's always been a piece of that in me, right? So I've applied for jobs that I wasn't, like I didn't have the requirements. I've also done some really insane jobs. At one point I was talking to a friend about this last week, and I was actually having this conversation with my sister of kids these days that can't afford the lifestyle that their parents have. And aren't knowing how to pay their bills and aren't knowing how to get ahead and are super stressed out. And I said, but it's priorities. And both of these people I was, I was talking to. It was like, yeah, but it's different. It's more expensive. And I said, “No. I said, we knew we could afford ramen. If I wanted steak, I needed another job.” So I was the girl who at one point was working full time and going to school full time. I was the girl who had a job, literally, I worked and I don't even know to this day why I said yes to this job. I worked at a local bar. Doing bookkeeping, said a bookkeeping company on the side. And I would show up and they'd meet me. The security guards would meet me in the parking lot, walk me to the safe, like, the locked office, lock me in the office from 4 to 8 every morning. And I would do the bookkeeping because so many people had been drugged and attacked and that I literally had to hide in a room. Well, and then they'd walk me back out to my car, I'd go home and I'd shower and I'd change because I felt disgusting to go to my full time job, right. But it was this. It was this mentality of like, but there isn't an option. I have to do this. I have to have the income to be able to afford my bills. And there were medical expenses and other things going on. And I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but is part of it that we've created a really soft world? 

Don Gleason

I'm just writing down a quote. 

Dawn Taylor

Here's what I mean by that. And I'm sure some will be mad at me for this. And that's okay. Please message me. I'd love to chat about it, is we knew we had to get jobs in high school. Like, I don't know many people in my graduating class that didn't have some sort of something going on, like or at least a part time job because you had to. Our parents weren't giving us everything. We had to have a job, and it wasn't the good job. Like we had the chance to have everything back then. And there was no shame in having the job at the gas station or working at the Zellers, or being the doing whatever, like there was no shame attached to it. We just all had a job. We all just went out. All the businesses knew that they hired all these 16 year olds. 15 year olds, right? 14 year olds at McDonald's. Because as long as you didn't touch the hot stuff, right, we just knew. We just knew that we had to do that. And it feels like nowadays that's not a thing anymore. But then people also are missing those crawling and walking steps and wanting to go directly to the run. What are your thoughts on that? 

Don Gleason

I see a lot of couples and families in my neighborhood that are 30, 35, and I don't, I'm not trying to be judgmental here. And if they can afford it, fantastic. But I'm looking at so many and I'm thinking to Dave Ramsey and he says, three out of every four people in your neighborhood are living paycheck to paycheck. They can't afford the lifestyle they have. Now, I'm in a neighborhood where the houses are $500,000, and I have a 2017 Honda and a 2018 Ford pickup truck. And I'm looking at some of these guys. They've got 2020 this and a 2023 that, Lexus, Tesla. And I was like, “I hope you guys can afford all this.” right. So there is a lifestyle piece. But the thing I was looking at I learned not too long ago. And there's this thing. Imagine a circle and it says on the far left, easy times. Right when we're given everything right when and think about where we came from as people. Because the hard life is below that. Hard life creates easy time. So you think about, I think if I have this right, you know, coming out of World War Two and all that struggle that they had, and then the parents said, I don't want my kids to struggle like I struggled. My mom came through, she was born just before the Great Depression. Right. So she was two or 3 or 4 years old, five years old, living with that. Her mother died when she was 37, when her mother was 37. Um, so my mom was probably 16. She was in high school. So this was now World War Two. Mom dies. Dad's changing jobs every year. So think about the life that they had. Well, they come out and I don't think my parents did this, but a lot of the generation did was, I don't want my kids to struggle. So I want to give them everything right. I want them to be able to move into the same house. I want them not to have to have a job in high school or in college. I just want them to focus in on college. Right? But we all know that if you don't have a job in college, what do you do? You party and go to college. I had a job and I party and I went to college. So hard times. Hard life creates easy times. Easy times create an easy life. We don't appreciate it. We don't have values. We're not doing the work. We're living outside of our means. That creates hard times. Because all of a sudden we realize that we're not getting what we need. We don't have the life that we want. We've got to go back, like you said. To hustle and find that job, etc.. And then finally, the hard times create that hard life which creates easy times. So it's an interesting circle. And I think we're in that compendium now, of parents have tried to give the kids so much stuff. We wandered away from values. John Maxwell is big on right now values. You know, if you really focus in on values in life, then you're acting and treating people in the right way. Not to make this political, but Donald Trump. The one thing that that I may agree with a bunch of his policies, but the way he treats people, the way he acts, right, all of those things are.

Dawn Taylor

It's appalling. 

Don Gleason

It's appalling. Bbut I because I come from the values because my parents taught me values and I respect and trust. I have a hard time, no matter what his policies are, to like that person into the office. And I'll admit right on publicly, I voted for him in 2016 because I wanted something different. I saw some change, I saw some hope. But now I look back. There were signals. So, I couldn't vote for him in 2020 and won't vote for him in 2024. So ,it's going to be interesting. But again, not to make all this politics, but that will probably get a whole bunch of people riled up, I apologize. 

Dawn Taylor

Um, okay, we're in Canada. Canadians, Canadians. We're not big on politics in the same way. Yeah. 

Don Gleason

So but but it's about that trust. So what I wanted to ask. So I'm going to come back before I ask you a question. So I also had a job in high school. I ended up having a couple different jobs in college. Um, I remember one summer I was a fire truck driver and I would work a weekend day and then Monday. So, sometimes it was 48 hours. Um, and then Tuesday morning I go home, shower and get ready and go to my other job and work 40 or 50 hours there. So some, some weeks I had 90 hours, you know, earning money. So, I had spending money and other things for college, but I still had a job during the school year. Um, because my parents. Yeah, they were good. He's a professor, but he wasn't rich. He had older cars, so I just said, “I'm not going to put that burden on you. I'm going to go earn.” And I think it was because I had examples in my neighborhood of people doing the same thing. And that's the question I want to ask. Did you have peers that were doing the same thing, or in the family, or a mentor that told you you should do something like that, or is this just more–

Dawn Taylor

 In regards to having that many jobs than working to get my bills paid? No, that was just me. 

Don Gleason

Okay. 

Dawn Taylor
And I think part of it is the defiance. So we were talking earlier about. You know, even like mental health around these things. And because you do a lot of work with people, you know, that have PTSD and that are coming in of war and different things and army and military, and now they're doing this like transition. And I think a few pieces of it are number one. I've never had it, my worth is not attached to my business, and it's never been attached to any career that I've had. So because of that, I have no shame when it comes to that. So, if all of a sudden my business fell apart tomorrow and I have to go get a job. I've never looked at it as like, what's my role going to be? What's my position going to be? What's the business card going to say? What's the car that I might get? For me it's like, no, what do I need to do to pay my bills. And I've often talked with clients over the years that there's this weird thing called a gift of desperation. 

Don Gleason

Mhm. Oh yeah. 

Dawn Taylor 

Where you hit a point where you hit rock bottom hard enough, right, tthat you're like, I have to do something, and it's nobody else's job to take care of me right now. Right. I have to figure this out, and I have to figure out how I'm going to get there. And so at times when people in my life, I'm also a weirdly secretive human in some ways, and people listening might be like, “What? She's so vulnerable and open, I totally am.” I 100% am. But a lot of my life, I just felt like I was too much and it was too overwhelming for me. And so I just didn't tell people things. So if we were struggling financially because we had made a stupid money choice, or we were struggling financially because we had a massive health expense, um, I would just buckle down and figure it out. And that has been a character trait that I love and hate about myself. To be really honest, because I don't know how to ask for help all the time. I've gotten a lot better in my later years, but. But I have, like, I've always just figured it out. And I haven't had the shame. So there was one winter that my husband was really sick and I was like, “I don't know how we're going to pay our bills. Like, I actually don't know how we're going to pay our bills this winter.” And as much as Canadians have good health care, we don't. And he is very expensive medications that they won't cover because they don't like them. It's very Canadian of us to not like a prescription so they won't cover it. 

Don Gleason
Yet Americans want the same health care you guys have. 

Dawn Taylor
Oh my gosh. And I'm like, I'd rather be in the States honestly, most days that rather be in the States. But I had a friend who owned an Orange Julius, and she lost a bunch of stuff suddenly, and she needed help over Christmas. And I was like, “Rock on!” And I just went and worked at Orange Julius for Christmas at the mall. And I remember people coming in and being like, “Aren't you embarrassed to be working here?” And I was like, “No, it's paying my bills.” Like it's paying me. Like, I don't know why this is such a struggle for people. But even with that, don't you find that my husband and I have talked about this. He's in a position right now where he's worked 23 years in the same industry. He's worked his way up the ladder in an industry where nobody sticks around and actually does the same job for a long period of time, and people are now asking like, “How did you get this job?” And he's like, “Because I've hustled in this industry for so many years.” Like he's never chased the dollar. He's never been like, “Oh, I'm going to go to the company next door because they're going to pay me a dollar more, or I'm going to go here because they're going to pay me a dollar more.” Where is that coming from, do you think? Where is that? Because I think that's part of this whole transition. Right? It's like we're trying to go from, lik,e high school or university into getting a job. We're trying to go from one massive career to different layoffs. Companies have shut down or whatever. Now we're trying to get into a new career. And we don't know how. We don't know how. We people don't know what they're even looking for. They don't know what they're willing to go for, but then they get shame attached in that, and then they get, you know, the judgments on specific roles and jobs. But where do you think it's coming from? Is it just like a fear to commit? 

Don Gleason

Facebook. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Don Gleason
Instagram. TikTok, social media has gotten to the point now where people only put their best and now it becomes a competition, right? “Oh, look at my kids. Are they so neatly dressed? Look at the activity we're doing. We're at the zoo.” Or this. Or the theater, right. And now, it becomes a competition. Keeping up with the Joneses. And, uh, and it's kind of that way in the job market, right? Oh, I got a director job, huh? Well, I got a principal job. Well. Huh? I got a vice president job. Oh, I got a senior vice president job. I'm an executive senior vice president. So who cares, right? Are you doing what you want to do? Are you making the money you should be making to pay for the lifestyle you want to live? I was a senior associate with Booz Allen. I was below principal, below vice president. Um, probably, I think making about as much money as most of my peers are making, even though they had bigger titles, they had smaller companies, you know, because on the outside, depending on the size of the company, the senior vice president could be making 100,000 to 500,000. Right? You just never know. So, um, to me, it wasn't about the title, it was about what I was doing. And my dad taught me that. This is kind of interesting. I asked my girlfriend of five years to marry me. We were dating for four years. At that point, she said yes. We were working the engagement announcement, and my father and future father in law said, “Your dad has his PhD, so we want to put Doctor William Gleason.” And I said, “Ain't going to fly. My dad will not let it. He says he only uses that title for work. He will not use it in his private life.” And my father in law, he was like, “But he's earned it.” I said, “I understand he's earned it, but that's not the right forum for him to put it in.” So, he says, “I'm gonna go call your dad.” So, he calls my dad. He says, “We want to put doctor on the engagement announcement. He goes, “Absolutely not.” My father in law was like, “I could not believe how stern he was.” Right? But it was. So now when I come through the military and I ended up retiring as a colonel. And I have business cards. A bunch of my peers put Colonel or General on their business card to have it on their LinkedIn profile. I don't know that you can find Colonel anywhere on my LinkedIn profile because it wasn't who I was. You know, I was an environmental engineer. I was a leader, I was a commander. I did these things, but Colonel was not who I was. Colonel was just a rank or a pay grade. And, uh, but I think too many people get attached to that. So I think we get attached to the status and to the situation. And, I think social media just perpetuates it. I've been kind of on a, a rush this year to show my vulnerability on Facebook or social media where I'm struggling, so where I'm failing and get people to think about it a little bit and it is okay. Why can't we share our vulnerabilities when we learn? I have done more learning, watching people fail. My dad once told me. He says we made an investment. He finally, in his later years, he was doing investing stuff when he retired out of his professorship. And he says, “I got into a company, kind of a friend told me about it. $20,000 lost it all.” So tell me a little bit about that. Why? That was a valuable lesson. I don't know that he did it to give me a lesson. Maybe he was just trying to, I don't know. Was he trying to give me a lesson? Was he just talking about it? Was he vulnerable? Was he thinking? Just thinking out loud? I don't know, but I now do my own investing, and I've made mistakes, you know? But now I try to cap it. I try to have the right. I ended up one time. Getting it with us. I'd stay away from penny stocks, but there's one company - $0.13 a share. They were getting, they were creating a new type of aluminum that had done all kinds of testing and had greater strength in aluminum, it was lighter. Airlines were getting really interested into it. Alcoa was starting to get into it. They had a big contract, a couple million dollar contract. And I thought, oh, this could really go somewhere. Within months it was worth less than a penny and never recovered. I lost about $2,000, so ah yeah, I got it. So but it forms now things and I'm okay with sharing that on this forum or others, right? I made a mistake. I thought I did the right due diligence, but I didn't. So now what do I do? 

Dawn Taylor

I think that's in every area of our lives.I think partially because I've well, I've worked through a lot and the work that I do with people, I'm very, very open and willing to talk about all the times in life that I have screwed up or failed. 

Don Gleason

 I'm sorry. I got to say this. I downloaded the newest Investor's Business Daily yesterday. On the top of the third page, there's always some quotes, and the guy says, “The problem with talking about my failures is I have so many.”

 

Dawn Taylor

 Right? And it's so funny. Like, but I've also had some huge wins. And that's something that I often talk about and with people and go, “No, no, no.” Like we all have our book of proof of all the times that we failed. What about the Book of proof of all the times that we've had to win? And so. Let's go back to this career transition piece of it and why it is so hard to transition. I do think it's what we've been talking about in regards to shame and regards to ego and attaching our worth to what our role was. Our title was, our job was. That then makes it very hard to feel like we're almost taking a step back. 

Don Gleason
They say that. Carl Jung says that, you know, was it only 3% of the people? No, 2% of the people think, 3% of the people think, they think that 95% of the people don't think. And a lot of people question whether that's Carl Jung or not and who actually said it. But the idea is they're right. We go through life really just on habits. After we get into the new job and learn it. We're just habits. We drive. We're just taking the same path, doing the same thing. We're not even almost paying attention, except you're kind of watching the traffic. And when something goes out of the ordinary, you get the attention. Um, but I think in life we're not thinking. We see especially I'm a baby boomer, so born in ‘59. We are talking later, baby boomer. But it was all about security, right? We wanted to get a job. Like in Madison, Wisconsin. Oscar Meyer’s huge company. A lot of people work there out of Madison because it was secure. It was well-paying. You could be there for 40 years, get a nice retirement. Did people really enjoy it? Now, I heard, I didn't know then. Now I heard a lot of people were really struggling. But if you go to almost any Toyota here in San Antonio assembly plant, all those same things, do people really enjoy it or is it about the security? So, we get into this piece of should my passion be at work? Or should my passion be, my work is paycheck and my passion is outside my work and I'm very big on “Put your passion in your work.” Find out what you really want to do. In the fifth grade. I went to the first Earth Day in the United States, sponsored by a senator out of Wisconsin. So, I grew up in Wisconsin. It was big in Wisconsin, so they did a big thing. I'm in fifth grade. It impacted me. I was good at math and science. I got ahead of all my peers. I really liked the environment. My dad took me out hunting and fishing and all those things, and I saw the pollution. I smelled the stench. I saw the dead fish. I had to do something. So, I got into environmental engineering. So, it was kind of, it kind of grew into that. And then when I got in the Air Force, I got to be the environmental guy, and I got to study the groundwater in the flow, and we found contamination. Like I made a name for myself. I won several different awards. So it took me down the path that fifth grade started. And what I do is I try to help people really figure out what that is. But most people really struggle with thinking about it because they start thinking, “Well, I've got a civil engineering degree, so I'm going to be a civil engineer.” Do you enjoy it? You know, tell me about the best day at work. I don't have any. I hated every day of it. Why do you want it? Why do you want to do it for another 20 years?

Dawn Taylor

Can I challenge something in this?. I think part of it is the definition of passion. Right. There's something to be said for. You realized you were like, wow, I'm very interested in dirt and environment and all of those things. So, I'm still going to go to school. I'm still going to find a respectable career. I'm still going to find something that's going to pay my bills. I'm still going to take those action steps where it feels like nowadays, like I've had people come to me in their 50s and they're like, “I'm very passionate about Instagram. and you're like, oh, okay. “I think I want to become an influencer.” But I'm passionate about it. I don't think that people understand the definition of passion versus hobby versus something that calms them or relaxes them versus something that ignites something in them. And I think that's a piece of it. I have people say to me all the time, you should get a job building Lego, figure out a job, something around Lego because I love playing Lego and building things. And I was like, “Well, no, because I don't want to do that as a job. And it would never pay my bills. Like I could get a job at the Lego store. Yeah, probably, except for because of my skills and my background, I'd probably end up in a supervisor role, and I don't want to manage people anymore in my life.” And like, no, no, I don't want to. I just want to build Lego. Maybe, but that's where I feel like that's a piece that's missing, and that sometimes we actually have to have a job that will pay our bills. I'm not saying be in a job that makes you miserable, but we still have to have a job that will pay our bills. And the world, you know, we talked about. Like the social media aspect of it and all that. I think that part of that, though, is also, everybody thinks that they should be an influencer and everyone thinks they should be a business owner, and everyone thinks that that's the way life needs to go. And sometimes it's like, no, sometimes, like I've talked to clients in the past, I'm like, “No, get a job.” They're like, what? And “I'm like, walk away from your company for a bit, put it on hold, do that as your side hustle. Go get a damn job.” And they laugh at me because I help people build businesses all the time. I'm like, “Right now in your world, you need structure, you need security, you need safety. You need to know that it is a Monday to Friday, 8 to 5 or whatever the hours are. And that is beautiful.” There is nothing wrong with that. Right? And especially coming from a place of trauma. And I could see this being with a lot of people you work with, coming from a place of trauma. When you believe that your world is going to end soon and you can't dream and you can't visualize and you can't think that far out because it wasn't safe to. We don't know how. We don't know how to dream that way. So some of it, like I often tell people, I'm like, you just need to do something, like, pick an odd job and just get going because you can't steer a parked car. Like, you have to start somewhere. And just somewhere and it doesn't matter where. I remember, um, talking to a client one time and he was like, “Worst job in the world would be working at a tire shop. I cannot I can't even imagine what it would be like to, like, fix tires all day in the smell of the rubber and the screech of the hat, the impact wrenches and all the things.” Like, he was just like, that seems like the most horrible job. And I was like, great, apply there. And he was like, “Sorry, what?” And I was like, “I want you to get a job at a tire shop.” Right. They're always all hiring. And he's like, “I don't understand. I just told you that would be the worst job on the planet.” And I said, yep. And I said, “But you're going to have money coming in to pay your bills, and your hatred of it will become the fuel that will drive you to find something different.” Because you realize you don't want to be stuck there. But you're going to have the win of knowing you got the job. Yeah. And then you have a paycheck coming in every two weeks and you can breathe. 

Don Gleason

And you faced your fear. You change from that would be the worst job in the world to. Wow. I gained a new appreciation for it. About a month ago, I was thinking through this situation, and you nailed it, right? Sometimes you just have to have a paycheck. Sometimes you just need security. Sometimes you just have to pay the bills. Totally. To the other end of the compendium. And usually as you get older. Right. Because you've now scrimped and saved and earned and you have a retirement and you're ready to retire now, it's like, I want the passion. So there's a compendium along that line that probably move across. Some people get to it earlier, some people never get to it. But you start to try to figure out, “What is it I really want to do?” Right. There's a gentleman I think is James McCowan, who wrote the book essentialism. He said he started and he was doing anything the company wanted him to do, and then he realized that most of those things he was doing weren't producing the benefit, the results of what he really wanted to do. And he didn't really like them. So he decided at one point and he talked to his boss, “I'm going to really focus in on these things that bring the best bang for the buck that I really enjoy.” And some of his peers came by and said, “What are you doing? You're not going to get promoted. You're not going to get, you know, the right salary raise.” Well, he stuck with it and he got the bigger promotions. He got the bigger pay raises because he was bringing in the bigger benefit to the company because he focused on. Right. So I think there is a compendium along that piece. And you nailed it too, with the trauma as so many military people. And it's not just military, right? There's a lot of emergency services, people and others who come out with trauma of one fashion or another, um, could be other things, could be not even work related, but they just need the security of a job and they don't. They can't take over eight hours a day, 40 hours a week. They can't take problems home with them. You know, all those things. And we have to recognize that those people are on that left side. What I'm calling the lower end. I hate to put a lower position because it puts a quality on it, but on the paycheck end, let's say it that way. They just need the security and the paycheck. But maybe over time, like you just did, you challenge them to step more and more into certain things. John Maxwell gave his nephew some advice when he started his first job, he said. “Find somebody every day that you can help.” You know, Secretary. Whatever. Helping moving boxes. Right? They're bringing in copy paper for the copy machines. Go help them. And somebody would say, “What? You're a degreed engineer. Why would you be hauling? That's not the best use of your time.” But you're helping somebody. Mark Cole, who's now the CEO of all of the Maxwell Enterprise for John, started in the mailroom doing whatever it took to add value to the people around him. He got noticed. And finally it was John's secretary who said, “You need to pay attention to this Mark Cole guy.” And he started talking to Mark. John started talking to Mark and said, yeah, I see something here and started pulling him up. And so it makes a difference. Um, so anyway, there's a long ways around it, but I think you nailed it in terms of the paycheck versus passion. It's not an either or. It's never going to be and you're going to move along that scale. I mean, in 1982, when I joined the Air Force, it was paycheck. I needed a job, I needed experience. You know, yeah, I was willing to not do environmental work. I was blessed. So the way I can say it, it wasn't lucky. It was blessed. I had the right boss, the right opportunity. I had the right degree for it. And I just loved it and had to do it for two years there at my first base, two years at my second base, and just made a name for myself. Um, I grabbed on to the opportunity 

Dawn Taylor

But even that what you just said? “I grabbed onto the opportunity.” I was working with, um, one of my nephews. Fuck, I love this kid. He has always been like an old soul, and he was the one when he was only about 12 or 13. He wanted to meet with an investor to figure out what he should do with his money for, like, RSPs and retirement and things like, it's like a 401 K here and. I was like, all right, I'll set it up. And so, you know, you find some friends and you laugh about it, you set it up and. But this kid, he's like, we had a conversation one day. He's like, “I don't know what to do with my life.” And I said, you know, I said “You can look at it in a couple different ways.” I said instead of looking at it as I need a career, I need a Monday to Friday. I need whatever it is. I said, “What is the lifestyle you want to live?” And he was like, “What?” I was like “Not what's the job I want to have. What is the lifestyle you want to live?” So we mapped it out. We were sitting at a restaurant where the tablecloth was kraft paper and they gave crayons for kids to color, and we mapped it out. I was like, what kind of house do you want to live in? What kind of car do you want to drive? And he was about 15, I think, at the time, 14, 15. And I said, okay. So it's like, do you want a house like your parents? Do you want a house like ours? Do you want, like, what is it you want? Do you want to be able to buy a new pair of shoes every month, or, you know, every other month? Do you want to go on vacations? Like, what does that look like for you? Because kids are watching already at that age, and really, they don't know enough to know that they know nothing, right. So we mapped this all out and I said “Okay, so do you want to get paid based on showing up. So you're just paid a set amount based on the fact that you have the right training, the right schooling. You're showing up every day. Or do you want your paycheck to equal how hard you work?” 

Don Gleason

Mhm.

Dawn Taylor

And he was like, “Oh.” And I said, “Because one. You're always going to, you're always just going to make a steady income.” I said. “But the other is that if you're lazy, you get nothing. But if you work hard, you're going to get even more money than someone else. And I said, but it's 100% the effort you put into it.” And for his personality, he's like, “Oh, I want that one.” And I was like, “Awesome, okay, what kind of jobs could you do? Where your efforts that you put in equal your paycheck?”Right. What kind of jobs? They're out there. Okay. Do you want to work with people? Do you not want to work with people? Do you want to have to cold call? Do you want to have to network? And I took them to a networking event, and I did all these, like, weird things with him. And I challenge anyone listening to his kids. These are the conversations you need to have with your kids on what they want to do, because that kid got it in his head what he wanted to do, and he would randomly like, call me and ask me questions. He drove like 14 hours on time to show up at our house and like, go for a drive. I needed to discuss how this was going to work. But this is the kid that, well, he did. He did everything that he set his mind out to. But one of them was, we were sitting with him. we had driven up for his birthday one year, and I think he was about 17 at the time. And I said, “Look, I said, you've got a chip on your shoulder and you need to learn people's skills.” And he was like, okay. And I said, “So you're going to get a job here. I said, get a job at the Boston Pizza, go get a job at a restaurant.” And he was like, “What? I'm not getting a job at a restaurant.” Right? And I said, “Look around. You have to learn how to talk to people. You have to learn how to deal with difficult people. There's a hundred different roles. You can learn leadership, you can learn management, you can learn, like, there's so many opportunities to do that.” He did. He still works there part time just to fill in some gaps while he's following his passion on building his career. But the other thing that we did was I said, “I want you to go. So you wanted to be a realtor.” and I said, I want you to go. “Put on a nice outfit. I said, you don't have to be in a suit and tie. But I said, look respectable. Get a haircut for a shower, right?”

Don Gleason

Such an important point right there. 

Dawn Taylor
Right? He's always been a pretty clean cut kid. I was like, “No, no, no, you're gonna act like you respect yourself and you respect the people you're going to go talk to.” And I said before, you can even write because he was too young to write his test yet to become a realtor. And I said, I want you to go around to every single real estate office, and I want you to apply. To have them mentor you for free. And he's like, “What?” I'm like, “You're going to volunteer your time four hours a day.” And you're just going to say, “Can I pick your brain? Can I follow you around? Can I do these things? But I will clean toilets. I will empty garbage cans. I will wash your car. It doesn't matter what.” And it was interesting how many people gave me flack for that in a way of like, seriously, you're telling him to do this for free? And I was like, “It is the best learning he's ever going to get in the industry. And he will know if that's something he wants to do for a living.”  Before he wastes his money on the exam and he raises money on the insurance. We waste this money on all the time and energy and efforts to go into it. Man, you've never seen a more proud auntie. Every time that kid lists a house, sells a house, does anything. But he did it. He did it. He stepped out of his comfort zone and he had no shame. And he got the job at the restaurant where he had to, like, clean up after kids throwing food on the floor. And he, you know, volunteered his time at these offices. But then they fought for him when it was time to actually step out and do it like they all wanted him there. 

Don Gleason

Mhm. Goes back to the easy times observation of earlier, right? 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. 

Don Gleason

I remember when I was a kid like 8:00 every Saturday morning, my dad would wake up and tell us what we're going to do around the yard. We're going to put in a garden, we're going to fix, we're going to change the water pump on that vehicle, you know. 

Dawn Taylor

 But all those years we worked and we worked.

Don Gleason

Yeah. And I didn't push my kids enough. A we talked about the cars were tougher to maintain at the time. So therefore you send them to the garage, um, to the, to the auto mechanic. Right. You could do some things and I work to get my kids to do it, but sometimes when I'd be in the middle of it, we're trying to figure something out. The kid would disappear, and I didn't chase him down and bring him back like my dad would have done. And easy times created easy people. They don't have that stick to it even enough. So I thought that was really interesting. I love that piece of figuring out what you really want to do, that daydreaming. Right? Um, and I want to touch back in on this with the resume piece. I wish people would really think into the resume and what it can do to help you sell yourself because you talked about, you know, I think how you said it. Um, but anyway, if you write a basic resume, which is what most books tell you to do, you're listing your responsibilities, right? I choose this example I turned on, I open the command post every morning for the general, and I've seen that in a resume. Right. I just did this task. I was responsible for this task. I did, you know, I maintained the books for this company. Okay, well, then if I hire you, I'm going to hire somebody who just turns the lights on or just does the books. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, interesting. Yeah, 

Don Gleason

 But if I can tell the story and say, you know, faced with the problems of operating, the command is doing this off the top of my head, faced with the problems of operating the command post and bringing so many people together and setting I. So I set up all the rules and responsibilities and the processes and and how in certain emergencies, this is how we're going to operate. These are the people we need to contact and notify. If I say that story and what the results were of that. Yeah, you're going to get a job where they need you to more than just turn the lights on. It's somebody I can rely on to think through those problems. Same thing with an accountant, right? Is there a bookkeeper or is an accountant where they knew the laws, the tax laws, the legal laws made sure that all the finances were compliant. The reports were put together, they were submitted on time. They worked through any issues. That's a whole different level of employment. And I'm trying to get people to think into - what do they really want? Because the way you write your resume is going to show that you're qualified for that. And people are so stuck these days. At least in the military. They take their responsibilities and stuff out of there. They call them performance reports or fit reps, fitness reports, and they just copy-paste them into the resume and said, “Well, that's what it says, you know, says right there, I'm an accountant. I can do all those different things.” No, you're a bookkeeper. It doesn't show at all. “Well, that's what I did.” But that's not what it says. So, we need to bring that out. I work with people to really bring that out in their resume. So they're telling the story of the job that they want and it's storytelling. So, I'm creating a digital course. I'm really calling the storybook, the storytelling framework of getting a job, because you have to be able to articulate what you did and what the results were, not just the task, but the problem you solve, right? If Donald Miller is big on Story Brand, I don't know if you've if you're following him at all, but he–

Dawn Taylor

I don't follow him. I don't like some of his stuff he's done, but I do know he does a lot around Story Brand. 

Don Gleason

Yeah. So he talks about every movie. Every book has a hero, has a problem, has a guide. They fix the problem. There's a new result. If you watch every movie, your book, that's what it is. So you have to kind of use that, use a framework like that to talk about the problem. But most of us shy away from the problem. We just focus on the task because it's easy. The reader needs to know that problem to put it in perspective. 

Dawn Taylor

But we don't create critical things anymore. 

Don Gleason

True.


Dawn Taylor
Well, it's easy times, right? And it's one plus one equals two. And that's it. And no one thinks outside that box. And like my husband and I have this conversation often on nobody questions anything anymore. Nobody steps out of their comfort zone. They don't just try and see

Don Gleason 

They’re afraid they're going to be shamed, 

Dawn Taylor

Right? They'll be shamed, or they might fail, or they might fill in the blank. But I think that's part of the problem with that is. They're not. We're not creative thinkers. I remember, um, we take all our nieces and nephews on these crazy trips and for their 13th birthdays, 12th birthdays around that era. We were on one of them and our bank account had been hacked while we were in the air flying on the trip, and we'd been dealing with some issues anyways with the bank. They couldn't figure it out. They thought it was fine. And knowing this, I had taken, like all my business cards with me to make sure we were fine. Knowing this, I had taken extra cash out just in case. Just in case it happened again. I had not had time to like, transition all the bank accounts and do all the things in time for this big vacation. And one of the things that happened was because it had already, long story short, because they had already dealt with so much fraud in this account, they ended up seizing everything and shutting everything down until we were in person to walk into a bank to open it back up. So we're now out of the country on this three week vacation. Zero access to our money. Like none. And we got off the plane. We find this out from all the warnings. I phoned them, they're like, “No, we need you to step foot into a bank. We got to figure this out. We've now upped this to the highest security levels.” Blah blah blah. And I was like, “Okay, let's figure this out.” And my husband, even and with the kid that we were with, was like, “Oh my goodness, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? What are we going to do?” And like they started panicking and my husband looked at, I think it was one of our nephews. And he goes, “She’s Auntie Dawn. She'll figure it out.” There you go. And he was like, “What do you mean?” It's like she'll be the person who will figure out how to check into every hotel without having a credit card check in, like rent cars without credit cards. Like she will somehow manage to figure this out. Like it'll happen. And you know what's funny? Like, at one point I had, like, a bank manager wire transfer money to a hotel. I had, like, all of these hilarious things went down, but I managed to get a car rental company to rent us a car, three different places. We got car rentals without having a credit card, and even they were like, “Why are we doing this?” And at one point, literally the manager of this car rental place, as he's letting me sign the paperwork is like, “I don't know why I'm saying yes to this.” Like he was starting to question himself. He's like, “I'm not allowed to do this.” And I was like, “Oh, but you are.” And it's funny because I think that that's where, like, yes, people in my life bug me about this all the time and they laugh about it. They're like, “Oh, if anyone will figure it out, she will like, like you'll make it happen.” But I think that's a skill we need more of. I think that's a character trait we need more of. Which is, you know what it's all like. Marie Forleo. Whatever. Whoever should like, whatever she does. Sounds bad, but I just know this short a book called, like, Everything’s Figureoutable, and I haven't read it, but I always laugh at the title because there's so much of that is like, “No, no, no. What would it take for me to figure this out? What would it take for this to actually happen? What if we ask the questions? What if we just get really, really curious about it?” And I think that's where for anyone listening who's feeling really stuck right now. What if you weren't a tree? Like what if you actually could move? What if you could shift? What if? What if you could figure it out? Yeah. 

Don Gleason

There's a beautiful part about being a coach is we help people reframe their thinking. And I wish I would have done this after I retired from the military. I was down doing business travel, and I went down to an airbase in Florida. We'd been there all week helping the client, and at 6:30. I had an 8:00 in the morning appointment, I was going to check out, be gone all day and then go get the plane in the afternoon. So, I had to check out by eight. So at 6:30 I went over to the office and there was a huge, long line. I said, there's no way I'm going to get through that, get breakfast and get to the meeting. So I went back to my room and being a retired colonel, I was able to do just a form. I put the credit card on the form and supposedly, you know, because they have a kind of a higher level bonded maid would come in, pick it up, put it in, it's already in the folder, take it over, and they would process it. By the time I got home that night, I had not used that business credit card for months, I mean months. We went back and looked at it. By the time I got home that night, the card number had already been stolen, $10,000 had been charged in different places. And I was like, how could this have happen? Right? So I started thinking through it, you know. And I ended up thinking the only person who had that card was either the maid or the office. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Don Gleason
Who else could have had that? So I called the group commander, who I had been a group commander. He's the oh six in charge of all of that operation. And I said, “I just want you to be aware of this. There might be something you have to look into.” His immediate response was, “My people wouldn't do that.” Hmm. Here's the powerful question. So let's just say they did do that. How would you find out? Reframe the question. Right? Because he immediately came back with pride, with ego, with protectiveness, with all those different emotions. He didn't want to admit it. But so often in companies’ military, we oversee the problems because we won't think into the situation. Well, what if they did, kind of like your kids, right? So they come home and teachers, teachers and no teacher said teacher says he got in a fight. “Well, my son wouldn't do that. Son. Did you do that?” “No.” Well, my son wouldn't do that. And they started arguing. Well, what happens if they did? What was going on? Reframe the question. And I think we miss so much by not thinking into the question the other way around. If that happened, what do I need to do? I wonder sometimes how many other people got their credit card stolen. Was there a ring? And maybe when I was a squadron commander. I was talking to, what they call them, it's not the security police, but it was the Air Force. It's operational security investigations. And they would look at drug rings and broad rings, and they were constantly looking at different things around to make sure that they were asking the question, you know, what signs would exist if something was happening and they would find different things? And they talked to me about some of the people in my squadron that were involved in stuff. At first you wanted to push back. I was like, “Well, no, okay, you've got what can I do to help you? How can we prove this?” Right? And, uh, and we ended up having some I mean, we had one at my partner, squadron commander. There was a whole ring of people within the squadron. Stole over a half $1 million, at least of materials, hiding it in different, you know, iin different, uh, HVAC rooms around the base. And then he'd come in on the weekends and take the material, go out and use it for their own businesses. So they're getting free supplies, right? And I was like, how could people why would people do that? Because it was beneficial anyway. Just the thought there of reframing the question. And, uh, and we have to get past that resistance. My coach asked me one time, he says, “What's your relationship with money?” I thought. Good. Yeah. And she said, I want you to think into that question. Well, I went out walking. I said, I always take my phone and I'm typing in the notes pages on my iPhone. I thought it'd be a 20 minute walk. 90 minutes later, I'm walking and still typing stuff just coming into my head. “Why? Why do I pay for this? Why do I pay for that? Why don't I get to take my car to the garage? Why do I like working on that?” Right? And I started thinking about all those different relationships. But in some respects, I came back to, I get a certain joy out of doing my own yard work and seeing it every day that it's green and everything's taken care of. And I did it, 

Dawn Taylor

See, and I think that's what's missing. And I'm really sad. I'm really sad for these younger generations because of the world that we live in. They've never been taught how to critically think. 

Don Gleason

That's a good point. 

Dawn Taylor

They've never been taught how to do that. They don't know how to do that when it's like “Hey, think about this question and you know, resonate on that or journal about it.” They actually don't have that developed skill in their brains on how to process that. 

Don Gleason

  Is that why so many kids in math hate story problems? Because you have to critically think.   You have to figure out what the question is saying, what's the variables, what's the unknown? 

 Dawn Taylor

My husband always calls it - follow it through to its natural conclusion. And he teaches that all the time. It worked to his guys and he's like they don't like he's like you can't even get a kid to like figure out how to like wrap a hose these days. Like they don't even know how. They can't critically think like, what would I have to do to make this a thing? And they don't know how to do that anymore because they've never had to. They've never had to. They've never had to put the food in the oven at the wrong temperature and burn it and go, oh I wonder if I turn the temperature down next time if it would cook different, because all they have to do is Google it and do it perfect on the first try nowadays. And I think that's part of the problem. Right.? How do you get a job if you do get those rejection letters because we aren't rejected anymore. How do you move forward in your careers? How do you do those things when we don't actually know how to critically think? And I think that's one of the pieces that kids need. It's young adults. Honestly. It's a lot of like 30 and unders right now. Even people in the 30s, they don't know how, they actually don't know how. And the amount of times I'm like, people go “Dawn, can you just tell me what to do?” Yeah. And like, walk me through the steps and I'm like, oh my goodness, yes, yes I will. 

Don Gleason

And you bring that back to how to find a job in this environment. Right? I hear a lot of people going to networking groups and they walk in saying, “Do you have a job for me?” Or can you connect me to somebody? I have no relationship. So what is it? Critically thinking? What? What would it take for that person standing there who maybe has a job to want to give me a job or give me a referral into his company or something? What do I need to do to build that relationship? And it's like, I don't have time, I don't know, I have nothing to give. Like this gentleman I was telling you about yesterday, I have nothing to give. So therefore there's no reason for me to ask the question. I can't help him. We don't even know what he needs. Maybe he just needs somebody to care, right? Maybe his mom is dying and he just needs somebody to talk to about it. It takes nothing but time you do that, that individual is going to be beholden to you and let you into his company. But we don't know how to do that anymore. It's the same thing we've been talking, right? It's your focus. What is it I really want to do? What do I really need to do to network to get to that place where I can talk to those companies? How do I need to sell myself that I have done the things that they're looking for, not the lowest level, but at the level that I want in my resume and my LinkedIn and my interview stories to get that level, because I talked to so many people that I want a $100,000 job, and I got offered the $80,000 job, I can't do it. That's not what - well you sold yourself for the $80,000 job. That's what your documents show. That's what your stories show. They didn't have the trust that you could do the $100,000 job. I think you nailed it. Really good. Critical thinking, solving the problem of what do I need to do to get what I want? But most of us haven't figured out what we want, and they don't have the rest of it either. That's good.

Dawn Taylor

No, we don't. Thank you, Don, for being here today. Thank you for this conversation. I hope that people listening learn something, or at least have a different vision on what they need to do to get the job, what they need to do. Just just a mindset shift. I'm like, hey, what if I wasn't scared of failing? What would I apply for? 

Don Gleason

And here's the challenge. Sorry to interrupt you. 

Dawn Taylor

It's okay. 

Don Gleason

People are going to listen to this and say, oh, I don't have that problem. But reframe the question. What if I do have that problem that I can't critically think? What do I need to do? So I challenge people listening to this to reframe the question, well, what if I do have that? What do I need to do to fix it? 

 Dawn Taylor

That can change things for you. Mhm. Don thank you thank you thank you again. If you guys want to get ahold of him, if you want to learn more about him check out our show notes located at the TheTaylorWay.ca We have all of his contact information and what he's working on. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and please join us again in two weeks for another fun topic. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Don, and I cannot wait to hear how things keep going for you. We'll have to keep in contact. 

Don Gleason

Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today. 

Dawn Taylor

You're welcome. 

Taylor Way Talks

Summer Break Announcement

We've decided to do something a little different this year: take the summer off! As a team, we feel it's important to take a collective break. We can't wait to have you back with us in September, so make the most of your summer. We hope it's magical and amazing for you. If you're interested in getting updates on what's happening behind the scenes, visit TheTaylorWay.ca and sign up for our newsletter, or follow us on social media. We'll be returning on September 9th with a discussion on why career changes are so challenging.

Have an amazing summer, you guys.

Always in your corner,

Dawn

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: 
Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

Follow the podcast

If you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.

Please leave us an Apple Podcasts review

Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.

Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript 

Hey hey hey, guys. It's me, your host, Dawn Taylor, and we're going to do something a little different this year. We are taking the summer off. We decided as a team that we want to just take a breath. We're not going to worry too much about it and hope that you are still around in September when we come back, so enjoy your summer. I hope it is magical and amazing. If you want to know more about what's going on behind the scenes, go to TheTaylorWay.ca and sign up for our newsletter or follow us on social media. All those links are in the typical regular show notes, and we'll see you back on September 9th, where we dive into why career changes are so hard. Have an amazing summer, you guys.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Barb Higgins is a woman who has gone through many experiences in life. Yet the entire time, it's always felt like the world was against her. At every turn, she has been called out, sneered at and judged. It seems like the most "criminal" thing she's done in recent memory is to have a baby at 57 years old. Yet, this hasn't deterred her in the slightest. Today on The Taylor Way Talks, we sit down with Barb, a woman who's always marched to the beat of her own drum and someone who encourages others to do the same. 

Who is this for…

People from all walks of life - regardless of race, social standing or upbringing - have all been judged one way or another. It's an unfortunate experience we all have shared. This episode is for those who have felt judged and strive not to let it define them.

Guest Bio

Barb Higgins is a CrossFit coach and podcaster who had a baby at 57 and lost her 13-year-old daughter years ago. She continues to use exercise as a way to process grief and helps encourage her audience to do the same. From her traumatic experiences, she was inspired to write her book, Motherland which focuses on her daughter's death and create her podcast, A Thousand Tiny Steps where she tells her extraordinary life story.

Guest Links

Instagram - instagram.com/barb_444/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/barb.higgins.96 
A Thousand Tiny Steps - https://athousandtinysteps.com/ 
Molly B. Foundation - https://mollybfoundation.org 
Motherland - https://motherland.mollybfoundation.org/

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!

Follow the podcast

If you want to receive new podcast episodes automatically, you can follow us on Apple Podcasts or in your favourite podcast app.

Please leave us an Apple Podcasts review

Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review.

Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host Dawn Taylor, and today, we are talking to Barb Higgins. So, warning right now, y'all are going to put your judgey pants on for this one because we know you're going to anyways. We are diving into a baby at 57. Feel free to judge. Before we get started though, let me tell you a little bit about her, because I want you guys to learn to love this guest and not just judge her for her life decisions. Okay, we're just going to put it out there. We're going to put that out there. Barb is a CrossFit coach. Yeah, that's right. And a podcaster who had a baby at 57 after losing her daughter that was 13 years old, years ago. She continues to use exercise as a way to process grief, and it helps encourage your audience to do the same. From her traumatic experiences, she was inspired to write her book Motherland, which focuses on her daughter's death, and it helped create her podcast A Thousand Tiny Steps, where she tells her extraordinary life story. She is a beautiful mom. She's a wife, she's all of these things. She's an advocate in her community, and she's probably a very judged woman in everyday life. And yes, she's okay with me saying that. You should see her big grin and her thumbs up when I said that. And you know what? We're going to dive into this today. Welcome to the show, Barb.

Barb Higgins 

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Dawn. I'm excited to be here. 

Dawn Taylor

Bring it on. You are so welcome. So what do you wish people were talking about?

Barb Higgins
I actually wish people were talking about all the things that people don't want to talk about, because until we really get honest with what we agree with, what we disagree with, and how we respond to those feelings and others, then growth and conversation and change can't happen. So, you know, being 60 now, I was raised that little girls were polite and followed the rules, you know, um, sugar and spice and everything nice. That was what little girls were. I always wanted to be a boy, which was snakes and snails and puppy dogs tails. And as a girl who is much more made of those things. Um, I just think that we need to talk about what we don't want to talk about. That's a very broad answer, but we'll get into it with my story and it will make sense.

Dawn Taylor 

100%. So before we get going, anyone who's listening, we're going to just put it out there right now. Barb and I discussed before we started today the fact that we're diving into heavy judgment. We're diving into that, and we're diving into the fact that we all make decisions every single day that are judged and what that looks like. So if anything that I say comes across as mean or comes across as judgmental or comes across as any of those things. It's not. And we did have a conversation about this prior. So, Barb, take it from there. And let's talk about what got you to having a baby at 57. Because that's nuts, girl. 

Barb Higgins

It is nuts. I was told that the first time I went to a doctor about it. Um, really, initially I thought it was a trauma response to losing my daughter Molly. It was just several months after she died. I started having this strange dream that I was supposed to have a baby, so, I'm sorry. I went into traumatic menopause at 52 right after she died, and then I started having this wacko dream. So I went to the doctor, sort of for just my annual exam. And I mentioned that I was having a dream of having a baby. And what did she think? And she let me have it. That's foolish. That's dangerous. Don't do it. What are you thinking? You need therapy. And I was a bit stunned. Um. and I walked out of there and actually got all my medical records and switched practices, but, um, you know, I mulled over what she said and and sat on it for like, another month or so. But the intensity of the dreams were they just kept coming. So we could get into a dream specialist and analyze why was I having these dreams? 100 reasons. Going through menopause, losing a daughter, the chaos of my life at that time, who knows? Um, but I just sort of thought, well, this will give me something to focus on. That's life producing as opposed to hiding under my covers all day thinking about Molly, who was never coming home. Um, and so I just follow through all the medical steps necessary. Let me be clear. I was 52 at the time, 53. And the number of steps I had to go through at that age to even get approved to try was huge. Mammogram, EKG, bloodwork, full physical, colonoscopy and, um, hysterectomy, which is where they take a little piece of the inside of your uterus and test it. I mean, they make sure everything in your body is okay before you even begin the process. And the final thing you have to do is to see a psychiatrist. So I thought, I'm going to fail that one, right? You know, crazy, crazy, grief stricken mom in her 50s, but I didn't. I passed all those things. Um, and then we were in a medical malpractice lawsuit for two years. And so that sort of swallowed up our time. We had no money. Um, we were devastated. I wasn't living the healthiest life. I just put it off, um, and then once we had settled the legal stuff and life sort of settled down a bit, the dreams came back. And so I thought, all right, I'm just going to follow the dreams. And that's what I did. So, you know, it wasn't I didn't I don't come into IVF through infertility. I had no trouble getting pregnant. Um, from my three babies prior to Jack, I lost my first baby at 25 weeks to a heart defect. And then two healthy girls. Then Molly died, and now Jack. So the fertility piece wasn't, um, the issue for me. I didn't sit in that waiting room with those other moms who were so anxious about the pregnancy, working in a very different way than I was. My feeling during this whole process was if it didn't work, then it wasn't supposed to work and the dream was telling me something else. And I know that's what's the word. It's not hokey, but very, very different than the average woman in her 50s trying to have a baby. I have Gracie and I had two other babies. It wasn't like, “Oh no, I must have a baby before I die.” It was, I have to do what this dream tells me. I'll follow all these steps. And I learned, let me tell you, I learned a shitload of unbelievable stuff in the process and talk about judgments every step of the way. Yeah, it was a good process. 

Dawn Taylor

So right off the bat, Holy cow. I love that they do all of that stuff prior to, right. I don't know what the process is here in Canada. Barbara's in New England, she's in the States. But in Canada, I feel like they wouldn't do all of those things. And maybe there's research that I need to do, but we're so like, “No, it's fine, it's okay.” Right. Like, as long as this is the decision you want to make, do what you want to do. And so, I actually have mad respect for the fact that they did all of that and they were like, “No, no, no, we're going to make sure that you're in the right headspace to do this and that this is actually physically healthy for your body.” Let's backtrack one minute. You're married. What was your husband thinking? Right. Because you're having this dream and I can just picture my husband. Okay? So, like, I can picture my husband in my 50s. And so for those of you listening that don't know my personal story, my husband and I couldn't have kids. And it wasn't an option to do IVF or adopt or any of those things because of the brain aneurysm that happened when I was 17 that, like, I couldn't carry. Eggs weren't an option. Like, it wasn't a thing. And we made the decision to not do a surrogacy route or any of those things because it didn't feel right based on life expectancy for both of us to do that. But I can't imagine now, like I just turned 44. I can't imagine if I went to him and was like, “I think it's time. I think it's time that we have a kid.” Like at 44, he'd be like, “What the hell is wrong with you? What did you drink? What did you snort? Did you fall on your head? Or are you having another brain aneurysm?” Like he would not be like, we're like, we're ramping up, 

like. But he'd be like, “What are you thinking? We're going to be in our 60s before this kid even graduates.” Like, I can imagine where his head would go, especially as typically. And yes, I'm saying typically men are not quite as woo woo hokey spiritual in those ways as women are, that it would be like, “Go back to sleep and have a new dream.” 

Barb Higgins

So I didn't say anything to him for several months. I went through that first appointment that made me angry. And then and then I found I went to a different OB that I had had prior experience with. And he was fantastic. He did bloodwork. He talked to me about all the different options, let me know that my local hospital only went up to age 49. I'd have to find a clinic that specialized in women in their 50s. I found one just outside of Boston. You know, he was super supportive. So I did 3 or 4 appointments and a lot of research before I said anything. And when I went for my first appointment at the IVF clinic that I chose, um. the doctor, Vito Cardone, this Italian. You know, he's probably, I don't know how old. He's in his 80s now, but, you know, definitely old looking and didn't walk real fast. But this thick, wonderful accent and I had done a ton of the physical testing already, all sorts of the physical testing. And he remarked two things. One, you have a body that defies your age. I wouldn't think that you were a 53 if I just looked at your medical chart and looked at the results of all of your tests and, you know, BMI and heart rate and bloodwork and the skin, you know, internal organ, um, integrity, all that, all of it. Yeah. Yeah. He just said, no way. What? I think you're in your 50s. So who are you doing this with? Because, you know, it's important that you have support. I said, well, I guess I should let my husband know, so yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

That is funny. I love it went that far without even telling your husband. 

Barb Higgins

We were, you know, we were living. We were all three people in the throes of traumatic, traumatic grief. We shared the house. But, you know, Gracie, my daughter and I, Gracie was 15 at the time. We slept on the living room floor on blankets and pillows for two years. We couldn't come up here, you know, upstairs, because everything reminded us of Molly. So Kenny slept up here in the master bedroom by himself. Like we were really just living parallel lives, you know, like we were all here, but really wrapped up in our own realities. So, Kenny and I didn't spend a lot of time sort of chit chatting. It was just trying to get through each day. Um, and so when I finally did say, “Hey, so I need to share this with you, it was probably the first.” It was probably like October, maybe even early November. Um, I said, “Hey, so I have an appointment on Friday with a fertility clinic.” And he just looks at me and I said, “Yeah, I've been having these dreams that I should have a baby. So, what do you think? Do you want to be a part of it? Because I'm perfectly happy to, you know, maybe I can adopt an embryo or find a sperm donor, or I don't know what to do, but if you want to be a part of it.” And he's like, “I'm in.” 

Dawn Taylor
Wow. 

Barb Higgins

I mean, right away. He's a you know, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. And one of his major strengths is his ability to just be there with his kids. He has three children from a prior marriage. And then if Molly and Gracie, you know, then there were two children, you know, Molly and Gracie, and then Molly died and now Jack. So, you know, he's got six kids. Yeah. Well, seven, two and seven. So five here. Right. So, he loves being a dad and he's a good like, right now. He's like, on the floor in the living room surrounded by toys, you know, just doing whatever Jack tells him to do, you know, uh, having a blast. So, that didn't surprise me so much. Um, and he was also very willing to sort of let me let me drive the train, so to speak. Um, he just wanted to be supportive and helpful in whatever way he could. And so when we got all of the approval, he had to have a bunch of testing to, let me be clear. He had to have psychological testing. He had to have, you know, he was on kidney dialysis at the time. He was in late stage renal failure. Um, but that, you know, that wasn't an issue that wasn't a factor in, in, um, in us being approved or, um, sperm extraction for Kenny. Kenny had a vasectomy. So, um, you know, he actually had to have a little painful procedure too. How lucky for him, right? So they had to take, you know, extract the sperm. Um. And so he was approved for all of that, even being on kidney dialysis. So it's interesting that the implications put on you as an aneurysm survivor. Um, I'm not sure that that exists in the US. I'm not sure that would probably predicate you having a baby or adopting or anything like that. It's interesting. It's just interesting what different governments and countries focus on and how they how they control their women 

Dawn Taylor
Really quick. How are his kidneys doing? 

Barb Higgins

Oh, that's an amazing story actually telling it today. So you, your listeners can't see this, but I have a tattoo on my arm that says Hashtag Heart Molly B, which is what my shirt says, which is our foundation for Molly. And then the B stands for B the miracle. So Molly died May 7th and that was one of her friend. Rachel's birthday's May 7th. Um, and Rachel danced in her memorial service. Rachel was older than Molly, but, um, they all danced together. And Rachel died three years and a day after Molly and she died of anaphylaxis from peanut paste eating peanut paste and an egg roll. Went to a restaurant, ordered egg rolls. Was on life support. Same hospital. So our family totally helped that family because, um, everyone had been so good to us when Molly died. Same dance school, same theater, you know, all the same sort of connections. Um, we couldn't donate Molly's organs because they didn't know if her brain tumor was cancerous. When they realized Rachel was never going to wake up and they would have to remove her from life support, which we had gone through. Rachel's mom asked, “What did we donate? Molly's organs?” And I said we couldn't. And it was too bad because Kenny could have gotten her kidney. Yeah. And she looked at me and she goes, “Huh? Kenny needs a kidney. What's his blood type?” And I said, “Oh, positive.” And she went, “Mm, that's Rachel's.” So that was the end of the conversation. I wasn't there to get a kidney. So we're at the cemetery on May 7th, 2019. We get a phone call from Jen, Rachel's mom, to ask for Kenny's kidney transplant coordinator because they want to give him one of Rachel's kidneys. So Kenny has Rachel's kidney so that, the kidney that lives in in Molly's tummy. That is in Molly's funeral. Today is April 19th that we're recording. Um, and today is the day. Three years, five years ago today that Rachel ate the egg roll. So I talked to her mom a lot. You know, these kinds of, you know, uh. date markers and and reminders of what happened are hard to take year to year in the days lining up this year. So, Rachel's mom's having a really hard time, but kidney transplant. So that plays into our making Jack's story as well, because our first try, well, in the process of doing all the testing. So, we did all the testing, said, no, we can't do the we can't do the IVF now, we don't have the money. We haven't settled the lawsuit. We have too much going on. Dreams went away. Two years later, the dreams come back. We just, all right, let's do this. So I didn't have to do any of the significant tests over. I had to get bloodwork and another physical. Yeah. Um, and in the process of going off the 9000 antipsychotics, I was on, um, to not, you know, jump off a bridge because Molly had died and amazes me that I could be on all those medicines and function. But, um, it took me about three months to really go off all the medicine. So I have a mouth condition called trigeminal neuralgia, and I was on anti-seizure medicine for it. It's a nerve condition. And, uh, I had to go off. Of course, the medicine can't be, you know, now is 55, can't be 55. And having a baby and taking, you know, topiramate and all that anti-seizure meds. Yeah. And the face pain was I couldn't have carried a baby. So, I found a surgeon in New York City that can operate on your brain and fix the mouth condition. And so I said, “Look, I'm trying to have a baby. Um, you know, my neighbor went to you, and you fixed her mouth. Would you consider fixing mine?” And he said, “Sure, go get this MRI.” So I went and got this MRI and found out that I had three brain tumors in my head. So my daughter had died of an undiagnosed brain tumor. All the while I had brain tumors and didn't know about it. So, um, so I had to get all those taken out, which I did. So that neurologist, you know, he took tumors out in January and then cut my head open again to fix my mouth in April and signed me off. It was the day that Rachel was taken off life support. Kenny went to Boston to get her kidney, and I went to New York and got approval to have a baby after two craniotomies. So that was a big day. 

Dawn Taylor

You've had a very boring life. 

Barb Higgins
Yeah, no, not much. Nothing happens to me 

Dawn Taylor

Because I always laugh because people are like, so your life's been insane. And I'm like, kind of. I guess maybe it's just been my normal. Yeah, so the other person I'm curious about in all this is your daughter. 

Barb Higgins

So Gracie was kept out of this the entire time. Um, so my senior year, she didn't know it at all that I was going through any of this. Um, and then when I found the brain tumors and and, um, you know, she's a senior. Her dad's on kidney dialysis. Now, her mother's getting brain 

cancer like this. Poor girl. “What the hell? Am I just going to be the only one left? Is everyone going to die on me?” That's what she thought. So when I got back from when the brain surgery and all this was done, I then told Gracie, “I want you to know that what I was trying to do was to have a baby.” And the only reason I found the brain tumors was I couldn't go through with an IVF pregnancy with that and take the medicine for my face. Um, so that's why I did the only reason I knew was I was trying to have a baby, so she got very upset with me. She was glad I found out about the tumors, but she was like, “What the hell are you thinking?” Just livid. “Am I not enough?” And of course, siblings that lose siblings are like the forgotten grievers. Sometimes it's their, you can't have big online support groups for kids because it's not safe. They have to be moderated by adults. Adults aren't kids, you know, like it's a really difficult thing. And we had a really good therapist for Gracie and really, really tried to take care of her, but. Molly was her everything. That was her day to day life. And so she was just in this sort of fog her entire high school time. So, I didn't want to upset her anymore. So when I got the okay to continue, I didn't tell her. Um. And people give me crap about that. My thoughts at the time were primarily that she had enough stress in her life. If it didn't work, she never had to know I tried again, you know, if it didn't work, I'd never have to tell her. Um, so she was a non-piece to this. Um, and, you know, I wasn't trying to replace Molly. It's like people with ten kids. You don't have your second kid to replace the first. You know, your third kid to replace the two. You know, you add to your family. You know, love multiplies. You don't have to divide your heart up. You just keep growing new spots in your heart for the next kid. And so, but she immediately felt like she somehow wasn't enough. And of course, it's not her job to be enough. It's her job to be Gracie. She's not supposed to be Gracie and Molly because Molly died. She just needs to be Gracie. But you know, all of her own insecurities and such. Um, so when round two came around. So here's the Rachel peace. The first try was in the fall of 2019, and it was Kenny's sperm extraction before the kidney transplant. Um, and then when we went back it didn't work and I thought, okay, that's it. It didn't work. I wasn't supposed to have a baby. But the nurse said, well, keep taking the ashtrays. Don't stop taking that. Just stay on that right now. And you have an appointment like in ten days. It was like a follow up. So I go down and I go in and I'm like, can we try again? And he sort of he comes, you know, waddling in like he does. And he sits down and he looks at me and I said, can we try again? And he goes, you'll have to twist my arm. And so I said, give me your arm. So he put his arm up and I twisted it, and he opened his drawer and he says, I have a list. And he goes, the first thing I'm going to do is you. And he points to Kenny, and he said, it wasn't you. You're not the reason this didn't work. I'm amazed it didn't. It was him. So he had another round of sperm extraction post kidney transplant. So, my doctor really feels like that was a big part of it. So he gave it all two times. That 30-second sperm extraction. 

Dawn Taylor
Yeah, it's like childbirth. Come on. 

Barb Higgins

Yeah, yeah, I know he was funny. Oh, I have to go through that again. This is where I get judgey. I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah. You do? 

Dawn Taylor

Yes. Just one more time. One more time. 

Barb Higgins

Yeah. So, um, but it was the finding the brain tumors. And then that led to being home and online when we found out Rachel was sick and because we were both because I was recuperating, Kenny was so sick. We just had a lot of time to help this family. And then we get Kenny, Rachel's kidney. And then. So that was in May and my IVF transfer was at the end of July. I was 56 when the transfer occurred. I turned 57 and found out I was pregnant on August 5th, and that was the day that I conceived Gracie in 2000. Why do I remember these things? I don't know, but I love dates. 

Dawn Taylor

I’m a dates person, I do get it.

Barb Higgins 

Yeah, yeah. And then we couldn't tell anyone. I called my local OB and he's like, “All right, keep your mouth shut. Say nothing. Live your life. Put it away. Forget about it. Stay healthy. Just do what you do.” Because, you know, the first 13 weeks. So, I didn't say anything to Gracie, still. Because again, if I lost the baby. It was something I would much rather have shared with her down the road at a time where it wasn't such a crucial piece of her happiness. As such, we had Covid two so she couldn't even go away to college. You know, she was right here sort of being a part of it all. And so when I got to the 13 week mark, I switch over from the IVF clinic to my local OB and he had to sign off, you know, like I had two embryos implanted. I really wanted twins. Not because I wanted to carry twins, but because I'm a 60 year old mother and I wanted Jack to have a sibling his age, you know, like, we have a million friends, and he's with kids all the time, so we're making that work. But my thoughts were Molly and Gracie just played together all the time, and I wanted that for him. That's not what happened. So, I think it wasn't supposed to, but, um, when I got to the 13 week mark, you know, that's when you stop. That's another thing about IVF. I thought you would, like, wean off the hormones. Nope. You get to 13 weeks and you pull off the patch and you throw away the syringes and you stop. You just stop and your body takes over or it doesn't. So, I got really nervous, and I was on the phone with my OB. It was that first phone conversation. I thought I was home alone and Gracie was home. So she overheard, so she's like, why aren't you telling me? And I'm like, oh sweetie. So he told me, don't say anything until you're 22 weeks pregnant. And I'm like, what? So talk about judgment. This is what he said to me. You are a person in our community that is out there. You've been judged for many things. I had a really public job loss. I'm one of those people that everybody knows and they love me or they hate me. There's no middle ground. And, um, he said, you don't need the judgment if anything goes wrong with this pregnancy and it's related to your age, all you're going to be is judged by everybody. So, keep it secret. Tell the people that need to know and insist that nobody say anything. So the only people that knew were my CrossFit coaches because, you know, I'm working out and at the gym, I was working out at the most. Two of the coaches were paramedics. And so I thought I went to classes when they were coaching. Like, I just made sure. But I worked out every day. I mean, I lifted weights, I did all the CrossFit workouts, you know, I didn't, as I got bigger, of course I slowed down and I made modifications. But, uh, yeah, I would say of all four of my pregnancies, this was by far the best one and the one I was the most fit. I gained the least amount of weight. Um, yeah, that was cool. But I didn't tell anyone. 

Dawn Taylor

How did Gracie deal with it?

Barb Higgins
She didn't talk to me for a couple of weeks, and I just gave her the freedom to do that. I said, we have to put the pause button, push the pause button, and sit down and eat dinner. We live in the same home. Um, I'll go unpause. And if you need to storm off and slam your door, go right ahead. I can't, I can't tell you how to feel. Find someone to talk about this with. Choose someone to tell you. I'm not going to tell you how to cope with this. And so, she had a couple of confidants and, um. Yeah, she was just livid. And I think it also, you know, she was 19 at the time. I think it just grossed her out, you know, like, “Oh, like, that's just disgusting.” 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say I was going to say there would be so many emotions around that. Right? Like rejection, abandonment. I'm not enough. I'm not right. Love might get taken away from me, but also like fear of losing another sibling. Like, what if this one also dies? What if there's so many different layers? But also that. Right? Like, ew. Yeah. Like my parents having a baby at this point. 

Barb Higgins

And so during the remainder of the pregnancy, she was, I didn't, you know, I didn't do belly pictures and did all that stuff. I didn't incorporate her into that. Um, I didn't post anything on social media at all my entire pregnancy. I took a dive. You know, I have tons of pictures and videos, but I didn't post any of them until after Jack had arrived. Um, and then once I got through all of the testing and found out he was a boy and went through everything, one of the final things that I had to have was a fetal echocardiogram, and I lost a baby at 25 weeks. Well, I chose to deliver him. He was alive in my belly, but he was a frog baby. His heart was only two and one atrium, one ventricle backwards, upside down the arteries. It was just a mess. And it worked in the in the womb because he's drinking amniotic fluid. Once he came out, he would have just slowly suffocated and there was nothing they could do to fix it. Even in utero. And so I chose to deliver him. And he died before he, you know, I went into labor like eight at night with him. And he died at about 9:15. Just the contractions, you know, he couldn't even survive the contractions. So that eased my mind a bit. I mean, you know, you have such judgment about pregnancy termination. But I feel like I made the right choice for him. And the story gets better. So we delivered baby Gordy. And we donated his body to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, and we got lots of feedback that they had that the autopsy was consistent with the fact that he wouldn't have survived once he was born. And they've been able to learn a lot, and that they had replicated his heart and were able to make repairs on infant hearts. Now, that would keep those babies alive long enough to get a heart transplant, like. So I felt like, okay, little baby Gordy was saving lives. And so I had to go for jet with Jack to have this big fetal echocardiogram at the same hospital, you know, 20 minutes down the road from my house. You know, 22 years later, I'm doing this right. So I'm in there and I'm having that fetal echo and the cardiologist comes in. And of course, I'm chatting away about Molly. And did you know because that the hospital's affiliated with the hospital where Molly died? And then I talked about baby Jack and this funny doctor with an accent. That was my doctor back then. And so the cardiologist comes in, she's a woman, and she starts asking me really pointed questions about baby Gordy. And I'm like, is there something you need to know? And she said, I think I performed the autopsy on that baby. And so she;s the one that extricated his little heart and worked with all those. So I meet her 22 years later, like on a Tuesday. And she came in because she covered for someone and she had gotten out of pediatrics because it was too stressful for her. Yeah. If she. And she wouldn't have. When she saw that it was a fetal echo and then saw my age, she's like, okay, I'll do it because it can't be a fetal echo because she's 57. And of course, it was a fetal echo, itwas me. So Kenny and I, I don't think we could speak for the remainder of the day, because what are the odds that this cardiologist from Philadelphia now lives in New Hampshire? And looked at my baby 22 years after doing the autopsy on my other baby? 

Dawn Taylor
It's like so many cool little pieces of, like, closure for you. 

Barb Higgins
Big time. So, um, so once all of that was done, I started to tell people I still didn't post on social media, uh, because I didn't want it to get crazy. I thought there'll be enough media coverage once he's arrived, and I'll just save it for then. And I'm glad. I'm glad I did. It wasn't easy for me. I'm a I'm a Leo. Look at me, look at me. You know, I can be very ego driven. I have to be honest sometimes. And, um, it was hard for me not to say anything, but it was also somewhat comforting and soothing, and it saved me from the on the onslaught of of judgy people that, you know, and I bit a judgment in my family. Not too much. 1 or 2, like one of Kenny's children was furious, didn't talk to me for months and months and months. You know, and that, you know, that's their prerogative. They can do what they want. I can't control how they feel. They just took it personally somehow, like I was doing it to, I don't know, despite them. Like I think I'll have a baby to piss someone off. No, that's not, like that's why you get these reactions. We're better now, you know, we're cordial to one another now. And Jack is impossible not to love. So, you know, that's all calmed down a bit. But, um, for the most part, though, people were really, really happy for me. The people that were judgy were people that at that time, people that judge me like in my life, people that know me, the people that were judgy, were people that would judge me no matter what I did, you know? Yeah, I could find a cure for cancer. And they judge me, you know, it's there are people that are just like that. 

Dawn Taylor
Oh, there really are. There really are. So, you have little Jack. Is Gracie, is Gracie good with little Jack now? 

Barb Higgins

Oh my God. So that took about a millisecond. I came home from the hospital. Um, it was still Covid, so she couldn't have come to the hospital anyway. Yeah, I could just have. Kenny. Um, and so I have teeny tiny little Jack, and I'm sitting. I'm just propped up in bed, you know, and sitting with him, like, on my chest and everything. And she peeks around the corner, you know, the stairs come up into the bedroom and I so I just held him up and she just went and she just grabbed him and unwrapped him, checked them all out, held them, and that was it. I mean, she's number one even even the only reason I'm number one is if he wants to nurse, then he wants mum. But, uh, but otherwise he calls her sissy. Yeah. And this is it. That's sissy. She's number one.

Dawn Taylor
I love that. On how healing for both of you. So let's dive into this judgment piece for a bit. So you've alluded to like a public job firing and like a court case and all of these different things that have gone on. With or without all of those things, with or without having a baby at 57. We are actually just judged as humans all day, every day. 

Barb Higgins

Yes, we are 

Dawn Taylor

And it's interesting. I mentioned to someone I was recording this podcast. I was telling you prior and asking permission to say this and. And you gave it. But I mentioned and their immediate response was, well, that's child abuse. And they were mortified at it. And I laughed and I said, okay, I don't know if I'd go that far. Like, I don't think it's quite that severe. And they're like, well, they're going to be that kid's going to end up an orphan, and they're going to have, you know, like they're going to be dead before you even graduated high school. And like, there were all these, like really, really big emotions and feelings around it. And I have to be honest, when you applied for the podcast, I had an immediate reaction like that. Like, “What the fuck? What is wrong with this woman?” Yeah, but also knowing that I was like, “This is interesting and I'm really curious.” I want the story behind it and what's going on and like we were talking about earlier. We get judged all the time for not having kids, right? I remember my own, like I had a sibling say to me at one point, like, who's going to take care of you when you're old? And I laughed and I said, your kids, because they're going to like me more. Was my response good for you? Right. And they were like, oh, well. And I'm like, who's going to take care of you when you're old? And he kind of looked at me. So yes, it was my brother. He kind of looked at me and I said, “There's no magic rule book that's like, oh, you need to have kids so that they take care of you when you're old, or how that's going to go down or how that's going to look.” You could have a parent who has a kid at 35 and they're unhealthy and sickly, and they die at a young age. You can have a parent who's 60, and they are beautifully healthy and active and actually know it because they've done all the testing and they've done all those things right. We attach judgments to anything and everything out of a place of fear, out of a place of “I think I'm better than you” right out of a “I wouldn't make a decision that way.” Right?

Barb Higgins 

Yeah. I'm convinced that judgments come. When somebody is super judgy and very vocal about the judgment and there's anger behind the judgment, I always equate anger with fear. Um, you know, your fear of love, the two opposites, right? How you operate. And I used to feel very personally attacked by it. And I realize now that anyone that is vocally judgmental about something is really that's attached to something inside of them. So probably the biggest judgment I get is, um, how selfish it is of me to have a baby at my age, because how unfair that is for the baby. And so I listen like, okay, well, it depends on what you call fair, because most parents in their 30s have their children and childcare 50 hours a week because they're working full time, and then they get home and they're rushing around, and then they're in bed, and then weekends are full of things they think they have to do. So, to me, that's a crappy life for a kid, not the childcare places aren't wonderful, but you have a kid and, you know, 50 hours a week, you're paying someone else to raise them for you. So there's my judgment, right? Kenny's retired. Jack slept until 8:15 today. Yesterday he slept till nine. The other day he was up at 630. He wakes up. When he wakes up, he goes to sleep. When he goes to sleep. So all the schedule, your kids, people would say, you know, well, aren't you so lucky you can live that life? Yeah. When you're retired and financially secure, you can actually put your child first. So am I abusing Jack by having him at 57? Well, you know, when he graduates high school, I'm going to be that wrinkly person that everyone thinks is his grandmother. Okay, that's true, but his life right now is geared around what's best for him. He goes to an amazing preschool two days a week. They play outside all day. He goes swimming, he goes to little ninja classes, he has playdates. And who does all this? Kenny, who never got to raise his other kids because he was working 70 hours a week. He was never home for these things. His chunks of time with his kids, all of his kids were on the weekends when he had time. If you had time. Does it mean he doesn't love those kids? No. Does it mean those kids don't love him? No. But the number of times he's looked at me and said. I missed this with all my other kids. I never saw this, you know, and that to me, it's like, what a gift, what a gift Jack is in that regard. And how lucky for Jack. Like, my mother babysat Gracie and Molly, so my mother got to see all of these milestones, which eased my mind for the things I missed. I was teaching and coaching full time in public education. Um, and so, you know, my mother was with my girls way more than I was the first 3 or 4 years of their lives. I feel lucky because it was her. And she came to my home so they could play with their own toys and but I didn't see a lot of those things. I heard about things. So, you know, yeah, there's pros and cons to all of it. So when I, when I think of other older women having babies, I think, good for you. You've, you know, I've put behind me all my selfish years. You know, I'm done with the partying. I don't need to sleep around anymore. I don't care what I look like naked. Um, I'm not beholden to a job that I. If I'm not there, they might fire me. Oh, no, I'm not fighting for a promotion. I don't have to worry about a lot of those things. I pee when I sneeze. Doesn't matter how much I try not to. That's my biggest concern right now. So how lucky for Jack that he has a mother that has time to be with him and put him first. Instead of panicking about all the things out of my home that seem important to me. Judge that, right?

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome. 

Barb Higgins
but I do get it. And I think sometimes we, um, you know, there's an age where you're still a mother and now you're mothering your parents. You know, like, I'm getting to that age where my parents are beginning to need more support. They're beginning to need more assistance and help. So it's like you start mothering your parents. And now I have this little three year old that I'm mothering, and I can see where this could become exhausting. If Jack wasn't here, Gracie would be my child. And while I do mother her, not in the way that I mother Jack. Um, I can see where people I could see where. Why would people's minds go there, like, how are you going to, you know. And I could see why they think Jack is going to have to take care of me at a young age. But my parents are 82 and I'm 60, so that's 22 years from now. So in 22 years, Jack will be 25. So I don't think it'll really hinder him too much if he has to visit me in a nursing home. If that's where I am, which I don't think I will be. I have incredibly good genetics in my family. Um, my biological dad died at 98. Um, my grandparents on my mother's side of the family lived late into their 90s. I have an aunt that's 102. She's still alive. Um, so I don't think I'm going to die unless I get hit by a bus. But I could, right?

Dawn Taylor

There's no guarantee on any of that. There's no guarantees on those things. So that judgement. You have a podcast called Million Little Steps. And that's been one of your big things. And something that I say to people all the time is you can do anything and everything you set your mind to if you do three little tiny things. One is to have a tiny piece of determination. Second is no shame and third is one tiny step. 

Barb Higgins
Yes. 

Dawn Taylor
One tiny action. And if you do those three things over and over and over and over and over, you could do anything and everything that you set your mind to. And the problem typically isn't the termination or what the steps are. It's the shame piece in the middle. And people can't overcome the shame. And I did an exercise years ago. I had a bet going with a kid. His mom wanted me to coach him. He was oh my goodness, early 20s. His mom wanted me to coach him. And he refused. He adamantly refused. And we got on a phone call one day and I said, look, I said, “Will you go for a walk with me?” And I happen to be in the city he lived in. And he's like, “Yeah, sure, fine, whatever.” And we went for a walk. And I said, if I can turn $0.52 into something worth at least $800, pretty shiny and sparkly by the end of today, you're going to coach with me for at least six sessions. Because I was trying to explain this concept to him and he's like, “What do you mean?” And so as a joke, it was my birthday weekend. And as a joke, I had asked my husband what he was going to buy me for my birthday, and he dug in his pocket, grabbed some change, tossed it upon my desk, and he's like, “Buy yourself a little something pretty.” And it was $0.52. And I was like, “Wow, thank you so much for your generosity.” And it was a total joke, right? And we were laughing about it, but I still had this money in my pocket I had thrown into my pocket that morning. I'd hopped on a plane, I'd flown there, and now I'm talking to this kid in this park. And I pulled this money out, and I looked at it and I said, “So what do you think we could do with it?” Because you're talking about, like bettering your life. Shifting your life. Advancing yourself in some way. Right? Demanding more of yourself than where you're at. And he's like, yeah, right. “What are you gonna do with $0.52?” And I was like, I don't even think you can buy a penny candy anymore. Like I just. Right, right. Could have filled half a little brown paper baggie with penny candies, right? But I said, you know what? Let's see, let's see what we can create. And this person was walking by and they're pushing a stroller in this park, and I said, excuse me. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, my husband said. And I told them this story and not in a mean way, but my husband at all. But I was like, any chance you have something bigger or better that I could trade you for? For the $0.52. And she started laughing and she's like, ah, I don't know. She's like, I have a dollar. So in Canada, they're called loonies. They're a little gold coin. Yeah. And we have loonies and townies and bills and I said, that's amazing. And she's like, here you go. And I looked at him and I was like, we just doubled our money. We have a dollar. And I'm all excited. And he's like, it's a dollar. Like, you can't do anything with a dollar. And I said, but I just doubled my money with one tiny action and no shame. And as we walked around this park, we kept doing this and doing this and doing this and doing this and doing this. And people were like, what the hell's wrong with you, lady? And people are getting mad and people are judging what I'm doing and people are badmouthing me but people were also being nice about it. And people were like, you know what? Here, just take a dollar. Okay, here, take $2. Oh, I've got a few extra pennies you can add to that. Yeah. And as we're walking back this big trail, we were walking as we walked back to the parking lot where his mom was waiting. I said, look, we're going to put this on social media. I don't have this massive following. So it's not like I was some influencer doing this, but I said, we're going to put this on social media and you can follow me all day while I do this. It's 3:00. Let's see what we can get by the end of the day. I said if I hit $800, I was like, you're doing coaching with me? And he's like, “Yeah, good luck, deal.” My friend picked me up. Her two boys are with us, and we decide that we're going to take all this challenge, man. We went to businesses and asked if they had anything that they'd give us. We literally went to one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in town and like, knocked on people's doors asking them for things. At one point we had like $12 in change. We went to a dollar store and made it a candy Easter basket, so we'd have something more impressive to trade with. We kept going and going and going and going and going. We ended up with artwork. We ended up with Michael Kors sunglasses. We ended up like people, gave us the funniest things and the final item, and it actually sits in my desk as a reminder. And let me grab it so I can show it to you, was a pearl diamond watch. 

Barb Higgins

Holy crap. 

Dawn Taylor
It's a gorgeous watch for anyone who can see this. 

Barb Higgins
It's amazing. 

Dawn Taylor
Stunning watch. The person's like, it doesn't work. But here, I'll trade you for the artwork you just got. And I said, cool. We took it to a jewelry store. It needed a $14 battery put in. It works perfect. I've never worn it. It just lives in my drawer as a reminder. But guess what the value of it was. 

Barb Higgins

Well, it's probably close. Well, probably a lot. 

Dawn Taylor
It was on sale that day for $815. It was worth $800. 

Barb Higgins
So you got you started with $0.52, 

Dawn Taylor

And it was shiny, sparkly and pretty, which was what my requirement was. People were messaging me and I'm talking. This went down over four hours, right? 

Barb Higgins

So that story is a perfect illustration of why I call my podcast A Thousand Tiny Steps. And for me it came from a health lesson that I did. I taught high school health. And we would talk about relationships and choices and going through life. And my example was, you have two people, once a gold medalist in the Olympics, and one ran over his neighbor's kid with his car because he was drunk. And let's go back to when they were ten and they were best friends living next to each other. So when did these when did the first step of these realities happen? It wasn't the day they woke up. Boy number one didn't wake up and say, “Oh, today I'm going to go to Montreal, Canada.” And because it was a long time ago, and when the Olympics in Montreal. Right. “I think I'll do that today. I'm going to go win a gold medal and fly to the Olympics and win.” No, that's not what happened. And this boy didn't wake up and say, “Hey, you know, I think I'll get shitfaced and kill my neighbor's kid.” But these two realities happen. These things happen all the time. Watch the Olympics, people win gold medals. Watch the news. Kids get run over by drunk drivers. So when did it start? Let's back up. And so I would have them choose an event in their life and try to back up to see where the first step is. And sometimes it's a first conscious step on our part. And sometimes somebody does something that predicates our first step, that we wish we could go back and respond to differently. Does that make sense? So your story is is such a good example of what I would try to teach my students. Like look, so if you have a goal then take your first. Your first step was deciding to do something with $0.52. That's the size of the first step. The first step for anything you do is worth about $0.50, if that. And so then you've made that step. Okay, now I need a buck. What do I do? And that's your next step. All right. Now I need to double this. And that's your next step. It's all these little steps. So when I look at like, Jack's life, when I look at Molly's death, you know, I'm part of my reason for starting the podcast was to come to terms with how I was to blame for Molly's death? Because I'm her mother, you know, it's not lost on me that I'm supposed to keep her alive. And my life was very chaotic the year before she died. I was away a lot. Kenny and I were separated. My life was a disaster. And talk about self bereavement and shame. But in the process of walking backwards and sort of documenting all this through my podcast and being painfully honest, and a lot of people who listen don't like what I say, especially if they're part of the story. Um, but really, really coming to realize that sometimes we don't have a lot of control over those steps either, that sometimes we're on a path that can feel predetermined, and the steps lead us where they lead us. And, you know, it was like having Jack, am I supposed to have him or am I supposed to go through the process like, is the baby the reason, or is the process of having the baby the reason why the steps? Um, and that's a huge piece of life, I think.

Dawn Taylor
Oh, absolutely. It is. And I think that it's, like, I keep that watch in my desk as a reminder that every time I reach for a pen, every time reaching for like, lip gloss, every time I reach in to grab like, stamps, anything I look and I see that watch. And I think I could have tossed the $0.52. We often look at these little tiny things that happen and think, huh, that's not worthy of anything, or that step's not going to make a difference, or that step isn't going to actually make a change, right. And we underestimate the power of the million little steps, right?

Barb Higgins 

Oh yeah. Big time. 

Dawn Taylor
Right. Side note I came home and I showed it to my husband and I was like, thanks for my birthday present. And he started laughing and he's like, why did I give you so much? 

I had known you could do that with it. As for the next year, he gave me $0.25. Yeah, there you go. And I was like, what are you going to get this year? Yeah, yeah. It was like, no, 

that one's just going to go in my wallet. But in life, in health, in business, in everything, there is this idea and I, I am a big believer that it's because of social media, because of instant fast food, because of bank machines, because of just the way society is going. Right? Every single thing is so instantaneous. Every single thing is so quick, so fast, so easy these days. We don't have to take steps to get somewhere. People don't want to actually put in the hard work. People don't want to put the energy or the effort into it. 

Barb Higgins

And we're losing our ability to have executive functioning, which is the ability to organize your thoughts into actions step by step by step. Little kids learn it. You put ten five year olds together and they're bouncing off the walls. And then slowly they learn that first you put your shoes on, then you hang up your coat, then you get your snack ticket. Then you go to your desk and then you go to, you start to learn the steps that are required to function. 

Dawn Taylor

But we don't have that. 

Barb Higgins

We don't at all anymore. No. 

Dawn Taylor

And no one's willing to take the chance. I had someone of the day ask. They're like. Do you not age? And my husband's jokes that I have Benjamin Button and I'm just getting younger looking. And as I get older and I said, they're like, where 's your plastic surgeon? And I started laughing and I said, nobody. And they're like, what? And I was like, I hopefully get face cream on my face once or twice a week. Yeah, yeah. And they're like, no, no, no. But you do Botox, you do whatever. And I said, no. I said. But I'm really healthy. And they were like, what do you mean? And I said, I drink just water, coffee. I don't have juice, I don't have pop, I don't drink alcohol, I don't do any of those things. I'm sugar gluten free. I do pump and I do red light therapy and I do IV therapy and. I eat lots of anti-inflammatory stuff, and it was really funny because as I'm listing these things off, they're like, oh yeah, no, I'm good. I'll just get plastic surgery

Barb Higgins
Yeah. Oh, I'll just take ozempic and then I'll get skinny. 

Dawn Taylor
Right? And I started laughing as you live. Yeah, I started laughing and I was like, you're hilarious. And they're like, what? And I said, I love it. You'd rather fix later than preventative maintenance now? Yeah. But that's our society, right? That's our society. So for anyone listening, I think one of the biggest things is literally those three steps though, right? Like one tiny piece of determination, no shame in one tiny action. Rinse and repeat. And maybe that's a really good way of looking at all of this, right? Like, maybe it's like one extra glass of water a day and that's where you're going to start. Or I have a friend who's a nutritionist and she talks about like, have something green at every meal, something I don't care if you eat like a leaf of lettuce, have something green at every meal. Right. That's it. Just that thing. 

Barb Higgins

Green Skittles do not count, right? Like you don't have M&Ms. I would have started years ago. 

Dawn Taylor

Do everything at 180 degrees overnight and do that. But it's like one tiny action at a time. But I often say to clients, you can't steer a parked car. It has to be moving. It has to be in motion, like do something, do something. 

Barb Higgins

I think back to our theme of being judged and living in a judgy society. I also think people judge people they're jealous of, and I think a lot of the judgments I get around having a baby in my 50s is from people, men and women that had not been able to have kids. And so they're oh, so make a mockery of it and go ahead and show the world that you can have a baby at 57, like within the IVF community. I actually have had minimal judgment within the community, but I am unbelievably careful always to acknowledge and honor the mothers that do this. And it doesn't work. I am fucking lucky, I just am. I have a ridiculous body that I'm lucky I live in because it matches my personality, which is active and athletic and competitive. Um, you know, I'm 60, but I do not look or act 60. My day to day life is nothing like 90% of my 60 year old friends. Most of my friends are 20 years younger than me. Um, but I think sometimes our immediate judgment, like when I get judgy, I'm good now at stepping back and saying, okay, why am I so judgy about this? 99 times out of 100, it's something that I'm insecure about. My insecurity comes into play judgment wise. Like, I get a lot of judgment. Um, I have a handful of friends that are really extremely religious. Some are super Catholic and others are very, very, very sort of fundamentalist Christian. And anything with birth control and messing with the divine nature of conception and childbirth and all, is just considered outright sinful. And so I get all, you know, they're careful sometimes because I've lost a child as well. And so are their friends. But it's just utterly clear that they think I'm this horrifying sinner because I had the audacity to create a child in a test tube, you know, a petri dish and grow it that way. And it's like, okay, but it's still a child, like like, I definitely believe in God. So I feel like Jack has a soul just like every other child in the world. And he's a beautiful person that's supposed to be here and watching him. I know he's supposed to be here. My job is just to keep him as not fucked up as possible. So whatever he's supposed to do, he can do. That's how I feel about it. Like, okay, let me just make sure he's relatively normal. Um, so, I think sometimes it's people that have endeavored to do the three steps, all those tiny little steps and not met with success or not, how they feel successful. And so it's just easier to lay blame somewhere else. So go ahead, get mad at me.. 

Dawn Taylor
Yeah. I'm not mad at all I agree. 

Barb Higgins
Not you. Just people in general.  

Dawn Taylor
And I think people are busy judging because of that. But also we have shame around it where we don't want people to judge us, so we're not willing to take the step. Yeah. Then once we get going, we're also like, but no, this is my path and now I can't get off of it because if I have to actually shift or pivot or move off of this path or change something that I'm doing, or adjust something I'm doing because this isn't working, our egos get involved. 

Barb Higgins
Egos function out of fear. Egos function, the fear of the anger level, not the level of love.

Dawn Taylor 

And so it is. It's looking even in business, in life, in marriage, in relationships and whatever it is, it's going, hey, what we're doing isn't working right. And it doesn't mean we suck or we're horrible people or we're failures or we're not enough or any of those things, but it's not working. So what is, what's working, what's not working? And how are we going to change it? How are we going to fix it? How are we going to adjust it. Yeah. And let's keep going. Let's keep going. And it's funny, I said something the other day to someone that I was a black sheep in my family in so many ways and not as like the bad girl or, I mean, I have tattoos, so I'm probably the bad girl, but. I was like, you know, I might be considered that, but I feel like the black sheep of my family often for so many of the life decisions I've made in so many of the things that I've done and the things that I've tried, like I've spent my entire life not feeling like I fit into the box of my relatives. And they said, yeah, me too. And I could not be more grateful to be a different color. And I laughed and I said, you know what? It's so true. Like, we could be a black sheep because we're the bad person, or we could be a black sheep because we think different, or we could be a black sheep because we are just different. And. I think that for anyone listening, if you are feeling super judged in an area of your life. Just keep going. Honestly, like, if it's not mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, relationally, financially harming you or anybody around you. Rock on. Just do it, right. Like we get judged for how often we move. We get judged for vehicles we've driven. We've get gotten judged for not fighting the world when they said that we couldn't have a baby, we get judged for the fact that we moved and left and opened a trauma healing center and came back. We've been judged for jobs we've taken. I get judged for my gray hair every day like we had judged for everything. 

Barb Higgins
And I also feel, not to make this a sexist sort of thing, but, you know men father children in their 60s, 70s, even 80s, all the time. And no one, no one says a thing. I mean, nothing, you know, nothing. They maybe judge them for having a wife young enough to be his daughter. But you know that that's a parent that is going to need diapers at the same age I am, you know. But they don't, right? They don't get judged for being an old father. Um, and it's also how we look at women who age. I think that there's, we were at Disney and I was nursing Jack. This was like a year ago. And I'm sitting there nursing him, and I'm not shy about it. I mean, don't flash my boobs, but I'm, you know it's clear. I was nursing him and this group of women walked by and they were sneering at me, like, with this look of disgust. I didn't get it at first, like I wasn't. So I'm looking back. Like what? And, uh. And this one goes, that's disgusting. And I'm like, nursing a baby is disgusting. And she goes, no, someone your age trying to make it look like you’re nursing a baby. So she thought I was like, fake nursing. Like, I don't know what she thought. I was just like, okay, well, he's my child and he's hungry, but thank you. And it was, she was grossed out by me nursing my child. So, you know, if I looked in a mirror while I was nursing Jack, I might get grossed out, too, you know, like, oh, God. But I mean, it was, we don't also celebrate how women age, you know, actors and athletes that are male and their gray hair is sexy and their wrinkles are distinguished. And we acknowledge and honor their aging bodies. And women spend thousands of dollars to make it look like we aren't aging. Okay, well, you know, I'm 60, right? 

Dawn Taylor
My husband's getting gray hair, and it's looking so distinguished and good. And like, people are commenting on it and how good it looks. And I had someone literally at a business meeting offer me $1,000 to dye my gray hair so it didn't look so ugly. And had a woman in a salon tell me that my husband must be cheating on me, because no man would want to be with someone with gray hair at my age. couldn't stop laughing, both of them. And I'm grateful that I also, like you, have no fucks to give when it comes to a lot of those things, because I was like, I love that my hair. And I'll never forget this woman in the salon. I was with my sister and I was like, I love that my hair caused such offense to her. 

Barb Higgins

Yes, she's the one that's like that.

Dawn Taylor

 I love that I hold this super power of gray hair. 

Barb Higgins
And she's certainly never going to sleep with you, 

Dawn Taylor
Like you and your gray hair. Wow. I wonder if her husband cheated on her by any chance, right or left for a younger woman. 

Barb Higgins

Or that happened to your parents or something? Yeah, that's exactly it. So. But we do. We are. We live in a culture that scrutinizes women in a million ways. And I feel like it's that way. I just did a recent podcast episode on advertising between men and women, and insurance coverage between men and women, and the judgment in the moral high ground to which women endure and have to be held in very basic medical things and social things, and advertising is 9000 times as much as the standard men are held to. And in it, it's mind boggling to me sometimes, you know, like just the judgment that comes to women that doesn't come to men for the very same thing. And you know, like a vasectomy is immediately covered by health insurance, and a tubal ligation needs medical necessity and isn't always covered by insurance. It's the same procedure. Snip, snip. That's what that is. And men can snip. Don't even need a referral. I'd like a vasectomy. No problem. I would like a tubal ligation. Well, you need doctor's approval. It has to be medically necessary, and we'll only cover half. 

Dawn Taylor
Well, I'm part of it too, is like, why are we holding ourselves to the standard? And why are we, as women, so busy judging each other? 

Barb Higgins
Yes. Why don't we stop that? 

Dawn Taylor
It's not the men that are judging us.My husband has said that to me before. Where like, I was holding myself to an unrealistic expectation when it came to even, like how often I made dinner or what I was cooking or different things like that. And he's like, I don't have that expectation of you. 

Barb Higgins

Yeah, like, where does that come from? We accept we accept these cultural norms. 

Dawn Taylor
He's like, you're torturing yourself, so stop it. I was like, oh yeah, we accept it.

Barb Higgins
We accept that we have to put up with it. We accept that. Oh, well, you know, that's life. Well, no, no it isn't. And there's a story about red ants and black ants in a jar, and they get along fine. And then someone shakes the jar, and then the ants start killing each other because each side assumes the other side created the problem. They don't know that it was an external force. I this is when I sound all wacky, but I do think sometimes that there are political agendas and social agendas that are created to pit us against each other. If the women are fighting each other, then nothing will get solved. Which is true. We're so if we're so busy fighting each other, then true social change can't happen because we need to be unified as women to do a lot of things. And I know that in my child loss journey, in my job loss journey, and in my having Jack journey, um, I've received very, very different and more intense scrutiny than Kenny. Yeah. Look at me. That's life. Wait a minute. You know. 

Dawn Taylor
Barb. Thank you. Thank you for being so open to talking about this today, for not shying away from it, for having this conversation. I hope that for anybody and everyone who might be listening to this, take a step back and look at your life and where you are dimming your light, where you are holding yourself back, where you are making a decision to not step into your own and hold your space. Because of the fear of judgment, because someone is judging you. Because of all of those things. And no. Am I saying have a baby at 57? No, I think it's ridiculous, I said it. 

Barb Higgins

There are times,right? There are times I can't believe. I'm like, what was I thinking? You know what I'm saying? 

Dawn Taylor

But maybe it's a really good day to grab $0.52 and see what you can do with it. 

Barb Higgins
Yeah, I agree and see what happens. Yeah. And what got me Jack.

Dawn Taylor
And whether it's your health or what you can. You can curl up and die, right? Or you can do something with it, right? I always say the acronym for fear is like, if you can fuck everything and run or face everything and rise, and you get to choose which one you're going to use, 

that's right. You get to choose. So, Barb, thank you. Thank you for being here today. For anyone listening, I hope you heard something that hit home. I hope that you learned something from today's episode, but also maybe are going to drop a little bit of judgment on people around you that are doing something just a little bit different and outside of your comfort zone. Right? Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Tell your friends. Tell people about it. Please share. Leave reviews. You know all the regular podcast things that I'm supposed to say right now. Check out the Show Notes located at the TheTaylorWay.ca for more information, but also for all the contact information for Barb, her podcast, and all of her stuff. If you want to hear more about her world and her journey, and subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, thank you again, Barb.

Barb Higgins

Thank you Dawn.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Jackie Roby is a woman who has blazed her own trail and achieved many things in her life. However, she is not immune to the uncomfortable and unfortunate situations that plague the workplace or the family dinner table. The lingering trauma from these experiences has festered into doubt. Today, she unashamedly shares her story of how she was able to turn things around and overcome it. Doubt is a killer, and today, Jackie and Dawn discuss how to navigate around it and eventually slay it before it slays you. 

Who is this for…

We have all dealt with traumatic experiences in one way or another. Most of them can be life-altering in many ways and can give birth to the voices of deception in our minds. However, there is a way to take your power back. It will take tremendous work but it's the type of work we owe to ourselves. For those looking for that next - or even first - step towards self-healing, this episode is for you.

Guest Bio

Jackie Roby is the Founder and CEO of Inspired Journey Consulting. Using the perfect harmony of Positive Intelligence, Human Design, and mental wellness practices, she helps people who have been abused shift from self-doubt to self-empowerment. Through mindset coaching, speaking, and facilitating workshops, she supports change in our inner and outer worlds. She is an international speaker, host of the podcast Through Inspired Eyes, and Chair of the Global Wellness Institute's Diversity Equity Inclusion Initiative. IJC's vision is to enhance cultural wellness in the workplace, grow emotional intelligence, healing, and self-love for a kinder, more inclusive world.

Guest Links

Inspired Journey Consulting - https://inspiredjourneyconsulting.com/ 
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/inspiredjourneyconsulting/ 
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/IJCpresents/ 
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackie-roby/ 
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyKLXBbqHkHISv9Zs8Hcyog 
A Career Girl’s Guide To Being A Stepmom - https://www.amazon.com/Career-Girls-Guide-Becoming-Stepmom/dp/0060846836

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey hey hey, it's me, your host, Dawn Taylor, and I am so excited to be talking. I'm like, is that the word? I'm honored. I'm excited. I'm crazy curious. All the things to be talking to our amazing guest today. Her name is Jackie Roby and she is this incredible, powerful international speaker, relationship mindset coach, chair of the Global Wellness Institute's Diversity Equity Inclusion Initiative, say that seven times really fast. She is a stunning Latina Bostonian who is a powerhouse. She is a wife. She is a mom. She is all of those things. And she is gracing us with her story today, but also diving into a really hard topic. And that is where trauma leads to doubt and how that shows up, where it shows up, and all of those things. So check out, like always, how to get ahold of her and to learn more about her in our show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca and yes, I'll say that again at the end, but for now, welcome to the show, 

Jackie. 

Jackie Roby

Thank you so much, Dawn. I'm so thrilled to be here and just, I feel such a kindred spirit with you. 

Dawn Taylor

Thank you. We were, I was just in Boston and we were just talking prior to starting the podcast about crazy parking there. And there is no parking, but also that they had the best gluten free pizza I've ever had in my entire life at a place called Otto's. If you ever go to Boston, eat at Otto's. But you and I had met prior to this, and we really dove into what we wanted to talk about today. And that's really not just trauma. Everyone has trauma, but how it leads to doubt. And so let's start with your story. Where you want to start, and how different traumas in your life have led to different doubts and how those show up for people. Because I really, truly believe that people don't know this and they don't fully understand this about their lives. 

Jackie Roby

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, as we both know, there's big T trauma and little T trauma and all of them are going to be important if I look back on my life. Even in chapters. One thing that stands out is always abuse, and so abuse is the big trauma that I've experienced consistently throughout my life, starting when I was three years old. I was sexually abused by my grandfather. And that went on for four years. Later on, I found myself in a romantic relationship that was emotionally and mentally abusive. So it, you know, that's qualified as domestic violence. 

Dawn Taylor

Mhm. 

Jackie Roby

To the point where when we broke up, I had to get a restraining order. I remember being in this relationship and we had a conversation around cheating. And he said to me. “If you ever cheated, I would kill the guy and I would kill you.” And when I was in the depth of this relationship and I was 19. My thought was, oh, he loves me so much and I would never cheat. So whatever. Eventually I was able to see my way around. In corporate, I found myself being. Abused in a sexual manner. As far as, like, sexual harassment goes with older male colleagues. But smiling, keeping my mouth shut, playing along, just so that I kept everybody else comfortable. And it's so interesting that you mention being a mom when we started, because I don't fully identify in that way. Because I'm a stepmom. And yes, I know the depth of it. And for a long time I was fighting for a mom title. But the type of judgment that has been placed on me simply for having this role in a child's life is so intense. That it fed that fire of doubt. So, I started my healing journey. 22 years ago at this point. So once I left that abusive relationship, once I got through, I thought, I don't ever want to find myself in this kind of relationship again. So what can I do differently? How did I participate and that's when I learned, right? I started this journey and I learned about red flags, and I made sure I was never in an abusive romantic relationship again, which I wasn't. But what I found throughout the years is I continued to be an abuse of relationships in different scenarios. 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say, can we can we even, sorry, can we backtrack a little bit? That 

abuse when you were young. I've heard over the years. It's interesting. Yeah, but you were so young. How did that affect you when you were older? Minds like that. Right. So for anyone who's listening that's been abused, you're all like, what? I know, I know, but I've heard this. I have heard this from many, many people, even in my own personal life that can't figure out how abuse affects somebody. On this topic of how it leads to doubt. How did that abuse play into the first abusive relationship in your life? What doubt did that create for you. 

Jackie Roby

“Am I worthy? I am not worthy enough to be loved.” So if someone's paying attention to me. That must mean that I need to keep them there. What can I do to keep them there? What can I do to keep them happy? And the fact that I wasn't protected that when I tell this story now as an adult and so many family members say, that doesn't surprise me. Why wasn't I worth protecting that? And then the ones who say, who gloss over it. “Oh, well, just keep going.” Right. Well, we're going to keep going as if nothing happened. 

Dawn Taylor

Head under the sand. Just buried a little deeper. 

Jackie Roby

Well, now. You spent a little bit, you think, am I making this up, this happen, right? What? It's not a big deal, huh? I thought it was a big deal. Okay. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. They seem a little uncomfortable. Did I make them uncomfortable? I did that. Oh, God. It's all my fault now. And it just keeps going like that. So now you're wondering. What's real? What's not? What's good, what's bad? The rules have been thrown out and you've been shown by others that whatever you were saying or doing or trying to stand up for yourself or whatever it was happening in your experience. They're telling you it doesn't matter. So it makes you question your reality. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh my gosh. 

Jackie Roby

Your thought process. 

Dawn Taylor

I've often said to people, it's not the abuse that caused the damage. I was sexually abused by an uncle when I was 14, and I've often said that and they're like, what? And I'm like, no, no, no. What he did was horrible and wrong. And yes, it caused its own set of problems, but that I could process and that I could heal. I haven't healed the rest, but it was the fact that no one believed me. It was the fact that people turned it against me. I got a letter from his wife saying that it was my fault and I should have said “No!” louder. And admitting that he had done it, saying this had happened to other women in her life, and she just thought that people wanted her husband and that I shouldn't have dressed so slutty. I was like the most proper 14 year old effort, like it was, that it was those things. But it wasn't rape, right? It was those things that people said to me after and their actions and you know, in Canada, we had this whole thing. It was like we were taught in school. It was like, I swear it was on a TV commercial. It was like, “Say no and go and tell someone you trust.” And I'm sure anyone Canadian who's listening is laughing because you heard that. And like, we all know that because we gotta pound it into our heads. But when you say no and go and tell someone you trust and then they don't do what the school book 

said. Right. It was the doubts of that. It was the “I'm not worth fighting for. I'm not worth protecting. I'm not worth hurting a family relationship.” Right. I remember coming home and I'd finally charged him four years later, and I came home and my mom actually punched me for going to the cops. Like she was that mad at me that she struck me for going to the cops and saying something. And I remember just standing there and being like. Wow. “Do you know the damage this will cause to the family is what was said to me over and over and over.” Right? Like it's your fault. Right, and that doubt in your head, but also like the people that love you the most, are going to hurt you the most. 

Jackie Roby
Yeah. And that's the thing. It's the worst part of it. I think if you expect the people to protect you, to stand up for you, to be there for you, but to then turn it around. And make it your fault or it makes them uncomfortable. Yeah, I talk a lot about how you kind of get this messaging of shut up and take it.

Dawn Taylor

Oh my goodness. Yes. 

Jackie Roby

Yeah, it happened to you.

Dawn Taylor

“But he's a good man.” It was my favorite. 

Jackie Roby

I remember during the beginning of the healing around what happened with my grandfather. I was in my 20s. And part of the healing was telling people, and I was terrified that they would hate me. I was terrified that I was the one responsible for breaking up the family. Even though number one I wasn't. Let's be real. And the family was already on their own path. But for me, it just kept ringing. Everything is my fault. And that is the self-doubt. That came with it. So that's what it became in everything. Every action I take. There's this mean person in my head saying it's your fault. And you're not worthy of unconditional love. 

Dawn Taylor

And then what an interesting, when you go from that, people often ask like, how did I end up in this abusive relationship? How did I end up in this position? And I  was like, let's backtrack. How were you shown love as a child? What? What did that even look like? Because those core fundamental years. You wouldn't have even known. I'm guessing at times if it was right or wrong, good or bad, what was going on, right? Because often we don't. I'll never forget a client saying to me one time, and I've said it out loud myself, was like, the brutal part of sexual abuse is sometimes it feels good. And then that causes all kinds of crazy emotions in your head. So did I ask for it? Did I want this? Is this something that I pursued? Right? Like those voices in your head around that doubt of like, what even happened? Did it happen? Did it not happen? Right. But as this small child for this person, like a four year old or three year old. They're 

just like, “Oh, grandpa loves me. He's hanging out with me. Oh, he's touching me.” Right. 

You know it's wrong. But you wouldn't see those red flags going into a relationship later in 

life. 

Jackie Roby
One thing that I remember was dissecting how my family gave affection. I’m a Latino. We are affectionate people. There’s hugs and kisses. And every time you saw somebody you greeted someone. Give them a hug, give them a kiss. Give them a hug. Give them a kiss. Kiss on the lips were normal. And I remember his being wet.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, interesting. 

Jackie Roby

And it makes me kind of shiver. Still thinking about it. But after, when I started to learn about red flags and boundaries, I set those with my family like nobody gets to kiss me anymore. No. I don't want it. So, I didn't know when to say no or how to stop. And I need to know that. And then when I met my husband and he had a five year old daughter, I was really mindful of that. I will hug her, but kiss her, I think there's a certain age where you need to stop doing it. Like, let's think about her having her own boundaries. It became really important. So, that way you start to understand. I don't want to say rules, but we're right and wrong isn't a question mark. Yeah. You can say my life will look better and different and stronger because I know what's good for me  and what's normal. 

Dawn Taylor

And I'm allowed to know what's good for me. 

Jackie Roby

Oh, I would never have been allowed to not kiss a relative. Oh, gosh. No. 

Dawn Taylor

Hug them, kiss them. Sit on their lap. All the things. 

Jackie Roby

When I started to talk about it. I had an incident with him when I was 21, and so this was right after court, right after starting the healing with that ex and after my college graduation. 

Dawn Taylor

So, in the middle of the depths of the hell of your trauma. 

Jackie Roby

Yeah, I am with him alone. He's cooking me lunch. He takes out a picture, a school picture of me from sixth grade that he's carrying in his wallet and shows me, “Look what I have.” And, you know, not really being cognizant of what was happening. I remember saying to him and thinking like, “Oh, I hated that picture.” Right? Something silly and “Oh, I have newer ones.” or I don't even remember. We end up sitting on the couch, and I remember feeling like I was sitting closer to him than I wanted to be. And he had his arm around me and was kind of touching my shoulder and it felt uncomfortable. And then he grabbed my hand and he was rubbing my hand, and that felt uncomfortable. And he was doing something to my ear and that felt uncomfortable. And then he took my finger and put it in his mouth. And I froze. And then I will tell you, to this day, I don't remember how I got out of there. But I did. I don't remember what happened next. I just remember eventually saying, “I've got to see my parents. They were there expecting me.” And I left to go tell them. And the first thing they said was, “Well, had he been drinking?” And they said no, but it doesn't matter. And then it was like examples of when he made other women feel uncomfortable. Mom. And then we saw them for dinner that night. And we just kept going with life. And there it is, again. So if I use my voice. Still doesn't matter. Must have been my fault. Not really important enough. Might as well just shrink. Who cares what I have to say? And it just keeps lingering. And I don't know about you, but I found during my healing that while we were able to finally look at traumas and say “Those weren't my fault.” And know that I can confidently say I didn't do that. That wasn't my fault. I can see abuse. I have a superpower for it.  But that didn't actually help the other areas of my life where I continue to doubt myself. In every decision that I made. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%. Because your doubt. That doubt. It's interesting. It's like, um, if you were to take, like, a prescription, right? It kills all the bacteria in your body. Not just the good, not just the bad. It kills all of it. And that's often where people don't understand how trauma works. It becomes like a new lens on a camera, a new lens on glasses of how you look at anything and everything now in your world. So when people ask like, yeah, but the trauma happened when I was a kid. That's not showing up now in my relationships. It's not showing up in my work that's not showing up. And I'm like, oh yeah, it is. Yes, it is. And so with doubt. Right. Like that's a big one, is you doubt yourself or “Am I good at what I do? Do I know how to do what I do? Am I allowed to stand up for myself? Am I allowed to charge that much? Am I allowed to?” Right? And it shows up in all these other weird ways. 

Jackie Roby

And it has you spinning. It has you spinning. You know, when I became involved with my now husband and I had never wanted kids. And I was so nervous because I'm like, “I don't want to mess this kid up.” I want to be really careful. I researched everything I still do to this day. 

Dawn Taylor

Was it due to the abuse of why you didn't want to have kids? Am I allowed to ask that? 

Jackie Roby

Yeah, absolutely. I actually think it had more to do with what the dynamic in my nuclear family where my role in the family that was established for me was to keep the peace and keep everyone comfortable no matter what was going on with me? And I think because of that, I didn't want that for my future. So, I wanted freedom and that parenthood didn't look like freedom to me.

Dawn Taylor

You didn't want the responsibility of having to manage one more person and their emotions and their reactions, and having to be someone with them. 

Jackie Roby

Exactly. And so everything I did, I would research. I read a book when we first got together, a call The Career Girl's Guide to Becoming a Stepmom. Love it. Highly recommend it. 

Dawn Taylor

In the show notes. 

Jackie Roby

It's amazing but everything I would say I remember, I would then follow up with my husband. “Did I say the right thing? Was it okay? Was that what I should have said?” I wasn't really sure. Maybe I won't say anything next time. Like this went on for years. Wow, years of me doing that. 

Dawn Taylor

That makes for hard relationships. 

Jackie Roby

Yeah, yeah. And we had judgment, as I was saying, that came from everywhere. Including from the child itself who was being injured, of course. Right. Like that's kind of the natural one you expect, but it came fromm certain friends of his. “You should be doing it this way, or you're so great this way, or you can't say that.” Or oh, you know, every single avenue. I was being watched. And it just further enhanced all of that stuff until I started to take my power back and work on my own self-doubt that now I can stand and say, I don't care what you think. I know in me what is right. And if I am off in something that I do or say I am human. And I talk through it, I. Don't shove things under the rug like, I'm creating a healthy, wonderful, happy, peaceful space that supports mental wellness and breaking cycles of generational trauma. 

Dawn Taylor

Amazing. So in the doubt, you got out of the relationship, you start to realize all the red flags, all of this stuff. Then you walk into corporate. You've graduated, you're excited. Probably like most people, when they're in those early stages of healing, you're like, “I've got this. This will never happen to me again, because now I know.” And then you end up in a corporate situation. 

Jackie Roby

I will tell you that I spent my career in that I found myself in industries that were more lenient in that behavior? I started in casinos. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, goodness.

Jackie Roby 

And each time it took me, it probably took me a good ten years into my career to recognize the pattern. Because I thought it was just the individuals. Right. The bad seed, right? But not recognizing the pattern of it. The culture that nine times out of ten it was older men, the power struggle. How I felt powerless. And how I didn't fight back. Where if I had any attempt at doing it, I felt so scared. And I eventually ended up being the one leaving. 

Dawn Taylor

So how much of that do you think is, and I mean, some of it has gotten better with all like the MeToo movements and everything that's gone on. But how much of that do you  think was a trauma response in how, and I say it from you and I both and I've also dealt with some corporate stuff in, I hate to even use these words, but what we attracted, right, because of the trauma that we had, how we took it as a trauma response. And how much of it. Is actually just a normalized thing that we were taught to be okay with.  

Jackie Roby
Well as women weren't we just taught trauma responses? 

Dawn Taylor

Children of the 80s and 90s. I'm so very sorry for how our parents taught us. 

Jackie Roby
Um. So appease. Was the one that I would utilize the most in those scenarios. Mm. And I for a long time didn't realize that was a trauma response at all. I just thought I was a nice person. So,  eventually, I set boundaries for myself to never, never, quote unquote, find myself in that. position. 

Dawn Taylor
I love that you said boundaries for yourself, because people often think boundaries are rules for other people. And it's like, no, no, no, they're for us. 

Jackie Roby
Yeah. Like I don't go out. You know, I'm always back in my room by a certain time. I don't do after work cocktails. If I do, I have one and done. I can do business just as well during the workday as I can at night. There are just certain things I wouldn't do anymore. Yeah, and, even my first one. My first job though, they were just. Bullies. I didn't put myself in scenarios with them.  I say, put myself. God, look at that, I'm blaming myself. 

Dawn Taylor
I was gonna say, look at the language. It runs so deep in us.

Jackie Roby 

It's so deep. Yeah. I don't know if I could give it a balance. It's honestly just been such a lifestyle. 

Dawn Taylor

Interesting wording on that. It's true, though, isn't it? I remember. So years ago I was working for an oil field company, and I was the EA in the office doing the thing and having a POS and dealing with guys and dealing with billing and all this stuff. And it was a fairly large company.  And the guys were great, except one who decided he wanted to follow me home and stalk me and say inappropriate things and push me into walls and incredibly, incredibly inappropriate.  And it got to the point where there were other guys that worked for the company that knew what he was talking about doing to me. They started following me home every day from work. They 

wouldn't let me be in my office alone. When he was in the building and he was one of the supervisors, they wouldn't they would just make sure, like one of the guys in the shop would just, like, happened to be in the hallway every single time they saw him walk down towards my office as almost a protection and they went to the boss and said something. I finally went to the boss and said something and I was like, “Look, he's literally parking outside my condo. This is not safe.” And my husband worked at a town a lot and I was like, I feel unsafe with this man.  He was 30 years my senior and I was like, this isn't okay. And I was told I needed to figure out my shit because he made the company money and I didn't. So, they weren't going to get rid of him. And I remember standing there and man, I wish the me of now was in that position because things would have gone down very differently. But, I remember standing there and looking at this guy and going, “Okay.” And I went to my office and I packed up my stuff, and I just walked out 

and I phoned my husband and I was like. This is before I had a cell phone and I phoned my husband and I was like, I'm going on a really long road trip, I'll be back on a mentally ready, but I need to, like, process what just happened. And he was like, “Okay, go.” But my husband's always been very big on like, “No, no, you can stand your own. You don't need me to step in and protect you. Like, you're fine.” And, you know, as I was walking out, this idiot still tried to pin me in my office. Nobody said anything, and a group of guys, like, surrounded me, grabbed my box out of my hands and walked me to my car. And one of them followed me half, like, back to my place again. Because of it. And, you know, it's that messaging. It's another job where I worked for an accounting firm, and one of the accountants would always make me squat and bend over in front of him. He'd, like, purposely set files on the floor for me to pick up. 

And I remember thinking like, really? But it was also the PE teacher in high school that, like, to follow all the girls as they jogged and he'd walk the line in front of us as we did jumping jacks. 

And act like nothing was wrong. And I've had conversations with some of the teachers in high school since they were like nothing about what he did was appropriate. And we are so sorry. Right. This has been ingrained in us our entire lives. And it's interesting that at no point. 

Now, would I go to the cops on some of that? Yes. Now, would I hire a lawyer and charge people for some of these things? Oh hell yes. Would I go to the labor board? Yes. Would I go higher up above the chain to higher up management owners? The company? You better believe it. Right. Because now I have a very loud voice that I am not afraid to use it in those ways, but, like you said, it was a lifestyle. Right. It was a lifestyle of just “Suck it up. It's not a big deal. I need my paycheck every other Friday. And he's just a pig. Oh, it's just how guys think. It's just how guys are.” Right. And if I would say signs and the doubts, the doubts that come with that, though, that literally spread into every area of your life. 

Jackie Roby
Exactly. It extended. To any kind of poor treatment. I was treated horribly by a female boss who, you know, when I tried to bring an idea to the table, said, “If you don't like it here, you have an option.” And I went to HR and after the investigations and the conversation, they said, “Well, she didn't mean it. We need you to be able to work with her, though. Yeah. Can you do that and communicate?”  “Oh, I've told you something's not okay. You're still not doing anything to protect me. Did I do that?” And I spent so much time spinning. In that role, thinking I must be doing something wrong. How can I be better? How can I do something differently? How can I navigate? It must be me. How much stress and time would we save? Anxiety. Potential. Future. Wrinkles. By working on this piece of it. And as business owners, it happens all the time. And it's not that it's going to go away. I want to be really clear about that. But we can quiet it and we can recover quickly. 

Dawn Taylor

We totally can. I had a situation in New York when I was there last summer where someone tried to attack me. And. It was. It was very interesting because my husband's always been very fearful of me traveling alone, and I do a lot of it. And it was a very dangerous situation, and I hadn't followed my rules of when to be back at my place and when to walk, where to walk, time of night to walk, you know, like 11:30 at night in Columbus circles. Probably not the smartest idea from a Broadway show. Like just going to put that out there if you're traveling alone.  But I 

was walking past a guy and he said quite quietly, but loud enough I heard it. “Oh, I can't wait to fuck you up tonight. And where I used to freeze and I used to just panic. I was like, oh hell no. And I turned and he had like 4 or 5 buddies that were all, like, closing in and circling around and pretending to play on their cell phones. There's not a ton of people in that corner right then, and I like chest to chest with this dude. And he was probably six two, six three like a big, big dude. 

And I went chest to chest with him and lit him up. “I was like, really? Are we doing this? 

Are we really?” And I totally, like, got up, like up in his grill. And I was like, “Really?” And 

he was like, he started stuttering. And I was like, “What is wrong with you? You need to call your mother. Get some therapy.” I totally just lectured him on the street corner at on the Saturday night. And I was like, oh, wow. And I just turned and kept walking. And this guy comes running up behind me. He has his phone on because he's about to call the cops because he was watching this whole thing go down. He's a local. He was probably like in his 60s. And he, like, chases after me, like follows me to Whole Foods. I was running into him, grab some groceries and he's like panicking. “Do you know what just happened?” And the manager comes over and they're having this whole thing around me. And I was like, “What?” And he's like, and finally he got his breath. And then he looks. The manager goes, “You should have seen this guy's face. Like that was not what he was expecting.”Oh, yeah, there was something else that happened earlier that night. I was just done right. Like, I was just done with all these men in their actions. 

And I phoned my husband and he's like, “I don't know if I should be laughing right now. We're flying down there and forcing you to come home with me.” He's like, “But I'm really proud of you and glad you can, like, hold your own in those situations.” Right. And it was a really powerful moment for me in so many ways. And yeah, it's a funny story. Whatever. I went back to that  corner. A week and a half ago, and I stood on that corner with one of my girls, and we stood there and I'm like, this is where that happened, is in this exact spot. And she's like, are you serious? And I said, yeah. Like right here. And she's like, how does that feel? And it was this wild flood of emotions of, that happened. Like that could have been really bad. Nothing about that should have ended the way that it did. But at the same time, I was like, I didn't doubt myself. I didn't doubt my abilities, my capacity. I doubted nothing in that moment, I turned into a powerhouse. And it was this really big moment of like, look how far I've healed. That I didn't freeze, that I didn't just stand there and panic.That I could stand my ground. And that was so incredible, that moment. 

Jackie Roby
And you would have had every right to do any of those things, 

Dawn Taylor
100%, 100%. I could have absolutely frozen. I could have just stood there. I could have collapsed, I could have cried. I could have done all of those things. Right. That is a very, very normal response. But to have my voice be able to be heard to that level and to not doubt myself in that way. It was incredible. 

Jackie Roby
Yeah. It's beautiful.

Dawn Taylor
Right. Like, that was such an incredible moment, and it might sound really funny, but I'm almost weirdly grateful it happened. Because it did prove that my voice mattered, and that when my voice came out that it made a difference. 

Jackie Roby
I love that and thank you. That moment is such a gift. Thank you.

Dawn Taylor

I think this doubt and it's interesting as. And I'm not saying men don't feel this as well, but as 

women, especially women raised in the 80s and 90s. Right. I was raised in a culture where it's just like, “Forgive and forget. Act like nothing happened. But he was a good man. You're 

okay. You're fine. It wasn't that bad.” And all of those things that caused me to gaslight myself. Right It wasn't even that everybody else was gaslighting me. They just didn't believe or they didn't know how to deal with it, or they didn't know how to process it, or they didn't know how to respond or react because they just didn't. But their reactions and whatever went on caused me to do the gaslighting and almost hold myself in that position of continually justifying other people's behaviors but also believing that I had to take That it was appropriate. Right?

Jackie Roby 

Absolutely. And you know when it comes up in ways that you just don't see coming. Like having to get everyone's buy in for an idea. And if you get one negative, that's all you think about. And it's like that negative is proving the story, the negative story you've been telling yourself.

Dawn Taylor

It's not that book of proof. I often talk about how we have a book of proof, and it's like this book of proof of every single thing that we have ever done wrong. Mhm.  Every negative conversation, every time we return down, every time we failed a test, every time we bombed at something, every time we sucked at parking, every time we, you know, every single time we screwed up, we have a book of proof. And it's almost like every page is a situation. And then we just add checkmarks to it, and we're constantly seeking out proof that we are that person, that we suck and that we that we are that that action, that behavior. And like you, I was bullied more from a female co-worker than I ever was men, honestly. But which is a whole different issue. But, it's interesting that we don't ever look for the book of proof of every way we've ever succeeded, every way we've thrived, every way we've overcome, every time we've done something right. The fact that, how many years in now you still struggle to be a mom? When we live in a world of such disconnect that I would hope that every kid would have multiple people that love them to that level, whatever the title is. That you would doubt that because of how you were raised, because of the abuse and all these different levels that like, that's so heartbreaking that we can't just be us, that we can't just love, that we can't just show up in the way that we want to show up because we're so afraid of somebody else's judgment. 

Jackie Roby
And one of those big ways it shows up is people pleasing. You know I spent so long write this, this rule making everybody comfortable. No matter what. It doesn't matter. The comfort of everybody matters. I treat them with kindness too. Everything stays in the family. Take care of this. Take care of that. Keep the peace. That I found myself in a career that was basically a trauma response. I was a sales person. 

Dawn Taylor
And constant rejection, 

Jackie Roby
Constant rejection, constant keeping people happy. You gotta make them happy. You gotta make them happy. Constant proving my worth. And your targets hit your numbers. And you're only as valuable as your last sale. That I desperately wanted so many people to like me. That when somebody didn't. I could probably still count for you, the people that have not liked me. And. But it bothered me so deeply. Because I could not understand. “They're supposed to like me. What am I doing wrong? How could they not like me? What is they don't like about me? Is there something that I need to change?” Like, it became something almost an obsession. Until one day I turned to myself and said, “Do I like them?”

Dawn Taylor 

Isn't that the truth?

Jackie Roby

Yeah, I think that's the more important question. But that's all built in with that drama and doubt. 

 

Dawn Taylor
So for people listening and I hope you guys still are. I know this has been a heavy episode today, but also I hope that you're seeing yourself in this to go, “Oh my goodness, that's 

me. I've done that. What is the boundary I need to put in place, or where do I need to start hearing my voice?” Please don't. Challenge your voice by walking in dangerous areas. But 

what would you tell someone are the first steps to healing that? To 

stopping the doubt, to even seeing where the doubt is showing up in the first place. 

 

Jackie Roby

So I use the system I call magic. And it starts with mindfulness, and mindfulness is such a big word and it means so many things. But one of the ways that I teach it is by getting back into your body. Because when you do that. You're actually building new neural pathways in your brain to get away from the fight flight, freeze reaction, and you're allowing that pause. And you're starting to notice. And that's the part of mindfulness people talk about when they say be mindful, right? You're noticing. But if you do not slow down, you can cannot notice anything. So one thing I would say for someone is if you're having a moment where you just kind of feel in you that maybe it's just ickiness, right? Just pause and take three deep breaths in and out of your nose. And if you can close your eyes, great. If you can't, that's cool too. But just do those. Give yourself just that 10 seconds of pause. And it can be a game changer. For responding instead of reacting. We're starting to see a little differently. Make it a habit. Practice makes progress. 

Dawn Taylor

When I think, I often talk to people about how often it's even. Just like you and I use this line all the time. It's like no judgment, just curiosity. And nobody can make us feel a feel. So if we are feeling something big, if there is a big emotion coming up, that means there's roots behind it. Right. The bigger the field, the bigger the tree kind of idea. It's like, “Oh, okay, what's going on 

here? What is causing me to feel this way? What is causing me to do this?” And at a moment with a relative, a few years ago, as he stood in my kitchen and lectured me on a relationship in my life. And I was like this little kid frozen in spot. And I remember standing there and almost like stepping out of the situation and watching it, like I'm watching like a play on the stage in front of me. And I was like, “Where did she just go?” Like, where did you just go, Dawn, that caused you to freeze in this moment? And I still do this, if this comes up for me, is I allow myself to go there and be like, who did you just have to become to be safe? Because  that's often what it is, right? It's a protection mechanism that's shown up at some point in our life that's  caused us to behave or react in that way. It has nothing to do with the other person. The other person is the other person, and we can just choose if they're in our life or not. That's fine, but we can't continually just put our healing on everybody else around us and be like, you need to change in your behaviors, need to change, and you need to shift and develop and all those things so that I can be okay. No. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. It's not their  problem. Right. As crazy as that might sound to someone. And so for me, it always goes back to this little girl like I always go back to, and it depends on the situation, who it is. But when  I can see it from her perspective and be like, okay, so she's feeling unsafe right now. Okay, that makes sense. You know, so much that's like maybe. And in those moments you can be like, okay, okay. So I went back to her. Okay. So what is the protection mechanism that she needed to feel safe. She had to shut up or she had to people please. Or she had to laugh or she had to get the perfect grade, or she had to do something to feel like she was managing the emotions of the people around her.  Right, or she had to shut up because your child and you should be seen and not heard. Or she had to shut up because there was a man speaking, and she had to show respect because it's an uncle or whatever it is. Right? Okay. Interesting. Is that situation still current? Is that protection mechanisms still needed? Or is that something that I can work on releasing now? 

Right.And I think that's for me where it's really been powerful, to in those moments to be like, “Hey, wait, I'm not a weakling anymore. I'm not that little girl who's trying to protect, but is a child who doesn't have the skills, the abilities, the words, anything to do, anything different in the situation.” Right? “But, how cool that I'm a grown ass adult, right? Like I'm a 44 year old woman who can.” I don't need to be frozen in that moment. I can stand up to the bad guy in New York, right? Because I'm not that 14 year old in that bedroom with my uncle who didn’t say no, right? I'm an adult now, and I have a voice. And I don't have to protect anyone's family or their feelings or their emotions. Like, I don't need to freeze. I don't need to shut up. I don't need to do any of those things. 

Jackie Roby
What I love about that is that it's still honoring that little girl, saying you needed that. 

Dawn Taylor

100%. 

Jackie Roby
And you needed to do that you know, when you find yourself in those moments? Oftentimes for me, it's what's happening in your head, right? Wasn't that you start to say mean things to yourself. There's this mean messaging and that starts to bring up the questions or impact decisions that you're making. We're not making, um, a question that I ask myself. I have my clients ask themselves is “Whose voice is it anyway?” 

Dawn Taylor

Yours or someone else's. 

Jackie Roby

Many times. It's someone else. So that's, put that in there. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally. Jackie. You're amazing. Thank you for hanging out today. Thank you for your vulnerability. Thank you for talking about hard things.

Jackie Roby

Thank you. You've created such a beautiful, safe space. And I've learned from you and. I'm honored to have been here. 

Dawn Taylor
You're welcome. For anyone listening, I know this was a hard one today. Or just a deeper topic. Not even that it was hard. It's real. It's reality. It's life. I just want to say reach out. Reach out if you need anything at all. Jackie is an amazing relationship mindset coach. She does all kinds of crazy cool things, and I hope that if you heard something that hit home today or shifted something in you, that it's a positive, not a negative, that you can start to see where the doubts showing up in your life, is it in your relationships? Is it in your parenting? Is that in your work? Is it in right down to what you're wearing? It doesn't matter. Where is the doubt showing up in your world due to the traumas that have happened in your life? And do you need to doubt it to that level? Or could you actually start stepping up and standing in your own and being okay with 

it? Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Please tell your friends. The more they feel understood, the better. And check out the show notes located at the tailor Rekha. For more information and all the contact information for today's amazing guest, subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And Jackie, do you have one last thing you'd love to leave our listeners? 

Jackie Roby
I would just love to leave you with the thought that you teach people how to treat you and it starts with how you treat yourself. So you're worthy of more.

Dawn Taylor

Hundred percent. 

Jackie Roby
People will love it or hate that one. Just saying. 

Dawn Taylor
I love it. Thank you so much, Jackie. See you guys again in two weeks. 

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Nick Klingensmith is a man with an inspirational story. He is someone who's always found himself on the throes of misfortune. One look at his life and you would think "unlucky" is an understatement. He has lived with diabetes, had multiple bouts of cancer, suffered an accident that left him with herniated discs, and lost many of his closest friends as well as his beloved pets. Yet despite all of this, he stands before us today ever persevering. He has chosen to not let these tragedies define him. Today on The Taylor Way Talks, we'll get to know Nick and his mentality against victimhood and how he was able to move forward despite all that’s tried to weigh him down in life. We are so much more than the things that happen to us. 

Who this for…

We’re all different people from different walks of life. Thus, we also come with different thresholds and capacities when it comes to handling life’s problems. One tolerable inconvenience can be another person’s worst nightmare. This episode is for those looking for motivation to get out of the doldrums. Rising through adversary happens with one small step at a time, and as proved by the life stories of both Dawn and Nick, we are all so much more than the tragedies that befall us. 

Guest Bio

After being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel in a drunken haze, jeopardizing his career and relationships, Nick Klingensmith had to make a change. A 4-time cancer survivor, type-1 diabetic, and recovering alcoholic with herniated discs, nerve damage and sleep apnea, he defies it all when he finds Obstacle Course Racing. Refusing to accept his limitations, he’s completed over 100 Spartan Races, 6 Major Marathons, several Ultras and scores of other obstacle and endurance events. 

Guest Links

Stride Motivation - https://stridemotivation.com 
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/stridemotivation/ 
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100069207242260 
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nklingensmith/

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today. Oh my goodness, I have found my equal, as he laughs. Today, I get to talk to the amazing Nick Klingensmith and I hope I said that right. I met Nick and I just have to say that it's very seldom that you find someone that you're like, oh, so we're kind of twins and we've had very similar lives and really wild ways. Not in positive ways, but wild ways. But it made me so excited to have this conversation with him today. So excited to have you guys get to know him and meet him. So the topic today is Die Hard: The Man With 15 Lives. So before we get started, let me just give you a little bit of information about him. So, after being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel in a drunken haze, no, that hasn't happened to me. But I have been kicked out of hotels in Vegas. Jeopardizing his career in relationships. Nick had to make a change. He's a four time cancer survivor type one diabetic, a recovering alcoholic with herniated discs, nerve damage, and sleep apnea. He defies it all when he finds obstacles with his, um, he does like obstacle course racing. He has done over 100 Spartan races, six major marathons, several ultras, and scores of other obstacle and endurance events. This guy is fighting hard for his life, and I hope that you guys love this episode as much as I do. Welcome to the show, Nick! And what do you wish people were talking about?

Nick Klingensmith 

Don, thank you for having me here. And I'll tell you what I wish people were talking about. I wish people were talking more about reasons than excuses. I wish people were talking about more about what do they want to achieve rather than what's wrong with their life. I want to hear more optimism. I want to hear more positive stories. I want to hear more hope and inspiration. I can't be the only one talking about this. And life happens. Life happened to you. It happens to me. It's happening to somebody right now, at this moment. And it's not fair. And it will never be fair. It's too easy to make excuses for ourselves why we can't live our best lives, why we can't do certain things. When I'm coaching individuals and we start talking about the thing that they want in their life, and we talk about it at a really high level, too, like a vague vision of purpose. As soon as we try to make the conversation real, I should just say, shut up before they say anything, because what's coming out of their mouths is the immediate excuse, the defense. And it's instinctive. It's reactive for them to immediately put out there. “Oh, but.”

Dawn Taylor

Okay, so let's backtrack a bit because you and I have both been in that position. Right. And for some of this thing right now who's like, “Yeah, cool. Nick, thanks for saying shut up.” Right. Who's offended? Who's offended or hurt or what do you mean? There should be more positivity. 

Nick Klingensmith

I'm not telling anybody to shut up who wasn't paying me to. 

Dawn Taylor

But you know what I mean. But it's still, and I've had this conversation with so many people, right? But you aren't in my life. You don't know what I'm going through. You don't know what my story has been. Let's backtrack a bit. Let's backtrack a bit to what your story is. Where did it all start? 

Nick Klingensmith

I wish I could tell you it started with cancer, but it didn't. It probably started when I was six years old, and I didn't give this event enough credit until like six months ago. But when my dad left, first of all, I grew up on an island. Okay, he didn't, this is not an after school special, all right? He probably moved down the road, but he left me with a mom who didn't have the capacity to care for me or to love. It's just not something that was in her and, you know, when you're a six and seven year old, you may not know how to survive on your own yet, but you can learn that you are on your own. And that's how I felt. I had a side hustle by the time I was in the second grade. I knew I had to fend for myself. I was an expert at TV dinners and French bread pizza, because I knew that was the only way I was going to eat. I knew the neighbors who would feed me. I knew the town, like the town shop owners who would entertain me and feed me like I had to build a network just to be able to survive. And this was all at a very young age. And this is the thing. I thought it was normal because why would you think otherwise? 

Dawn Taylor

But seriously, like we all have that where it's like, but this is my normal. 

Nick Klingensmith

That's it. Right. And why would you know any other way? Like when people ask me what it was like growing up on the vineyard, I'm like, it's all I ever knew. It's like, that's where I grew up. But about a year and a half after that, my dad came and took me out of school one day and he's like, “Yeah, your mom gave you up.” And now you're going to go live in a we're going to go live with his new fiance and her two daughters, and this new house on the other side of the island. The next morning, I wake up to hearing chairs being thrown. Just a knock down drag out, I am exaggerating on the drag out. There was no physical violence, but my dad and his fiance got into a huge fight and she threw us out. So in one day, one day, this third grader was kicked out of two houses by two different moms within 12 hours of each other. I never realized the impact that had on my life, and that from that moment on, I felt like I wasn't deserving of love. I always felt like I had this hustler, like, inside of me, and that I had to. I grew up not trusting and therefore I didn't trust or I, also, it was hard to trust somebody who doesn't trust. I continued to isolate myself because whereas a lot of people might feel this sort of fear of rejection or not fitting in or not being good enough, and they might respond by being people pleasers and perfectionists. And I went the other way. I put up my defenses, I put up my walls. I became independent and gritty. 

Dawn Taylor

Me too. 

Nick Klingensmith

But there's another word for that. And it's called victimhood. And that's what it is. And it works for us for a while because we needed it. All right? I needed that demon to help me survive everything that I had been through. It was the only one who was there for me. I needed that exterior to protect me from other people hurting me. Adults that I would theoretically trust who would betray me. I needed that for a long time, but eventually it stopped serving us. And it becomes a prison cell and it just fills with poison. And what again, was once there for survival becomes the thing that isolates me from other people. 

Dawn Taylor

So, let's pause there for a second. That character trait in you. What were the positives of it? 

Nick Klingensmith
The positives of it is that you learn to fend for yourself. Um, you know, if you think that you are alone, you do, everything is a choice and you have a choice therefore, to say, woe is me, poor me. Nobody's here for me. Nobody's giving me something, or you can do what I did, which is go to work at 13 years old and make money and make my own money, and make sure that if I needed stuff, I could pay for it. And it gave me the work ethic and grit and really just the persistence to be able to pay my own way through college, uh, working full-time the whole time I was there. There's a lot of benefits because it gives us these tools and resources that we might not have, that we might not have otherwise had. So I was able to use it for a positive. I just didn't know that at the same time, it was also making me cynical. I was also fearful and I just wasn't willing to admit it to myself. So, a lot of these things continue to separate me from the world. But I was successful, right? I had these ambitions for my life. I had this vision for my life. And so I did use all those things. And I felt like I was tough and I felt like I had overcome stuff. And I had been through, you know, some early childhood trauma and like, yeah, I'm making it through. But as I become an adult and I'm about 25 years old, that was the first time I was diagnosed with cancer. And so this victim mentality, it festered and it continued to grow. I just didn't recognize it because every time I saw myself as a victim, I rebelled against what I saw. I felt like I was being victimized by cancer, and I didn't like what I saw. I didn't like being the scared little kid. So I grew defiant against cancer, and it was like me versus cancer. What I later realized, though, is if you have a me against the world attitude. That means you're seeing the world as your adversary, and you're seeing that you are being victimized by the world. It's another way of perpetuating this victimhood mindset that keeps us the victim. This is one of the hardest things, I think, for a lot of people to hear, because most people and I can see it in your eyes, too, saying I'm not a victim. But how many times do we feel that something's unfair? It can't be unfair unless we're being victimized. And so when we cultivate that over the period of all those things continuing to happen to me, I got diabetes and I wept. All right, I got cancer again and I was just exhausted from it. Why is all this stuff keep happening to me and happening to me? And as you do, you begin to lose more and more of the power and control in your own life. You feel like that you've lost control over your own decisions, responsibility is freedom. Feeling like all these things continue to happen to me and I don't have any say so over them. No wonder a lot of people get stuck, because it is hard to overcome that. The world is a big place. 

Dawn Taylor

Well, and it is. But I want to challenge you on this too is when something is done to us. Yes, we can go into a victim mentality of oh woe is me. But I also believe that we are not taught how to process. We're not taught how to deal with it. We're not taught any of those things. 

Nick Klingensmith
100%. 

Dawn Taylor

So, like looking back, even at my own life. Like I had so many years of like, “What the hell is going on? And why is this even happening to me?” But I guess I'm just going to, like, buckle up and keep going because I don't really have an option or a choice. 

Nick Klingensmith
What else to do? Right? 

Dawn Taylor
Right. And it wasn't even a defiance. It was more of a like, either I curl up and die or I figure how to fight this. So, right. And I don't think that that's always victimhood. I don't think that it's always victimhood. I think that there is a time and a place where it is victimhood and people are just like, “Oh, woe is me.” and they don't do anything about it. But I think the challenge on this is to attach the word victimhood to all of it, I wouldn't agree with because if you don't actually have the skills and you're trying, right, you are trying so hard to fight for yourself when you're trying so hard to fight for your health. Mental. Emotional. Physical. Spiritual. Relational. Financial, whatever it is. And you're stuck, but you're still fighting. I don't think you can tell those people that they're living in victimhood. 

Nick Klingensmith
So I agree with what you're saying, but I'm going to give you a little more perspective on on why I think that it's a slippery slope because it is. If I was robbed at gunpoint. Right. Clearly I have no choice. I am a victim of that incident. Tomorrow, if I let it impact the decisions I make in my life, if I let it interfere with the relationships I have in my life and the actions I take, I am staying a victim. Just because we've been a victim doesn't mean that. I mean people are victimized. Absolutely. I was victimized by cancer. I'm not saying like, yay, I got cancer. Like I'm allowed to take that day and be pissed and sulk and process. Absolutely. But everything that happens after that is a choice. And therefore, just because it was unfair doesn't mean that people are not choosing to stay in that victimhood, and it's how we handle it from there. And it is when we look at this, the guy who robbed me. How much more power am I going to give this dude than what he already took from me? Everything else after that is a choice. And by the way, I'm not saying it's an easy one, okay? Because I didn't wake up and say. “Well, I've been a victim. Well, here, I'll just stop.” For me, it was a temper tantrum. That's how it started. And it was. It was this defining moment where I realized I had been a victim. And I believe it's one I told you about. And, you know, I discovered obstacle course racing. I was introduced to the sport in December of 2016. And. It wasn't something I was interested in. I had no no interest in making myself uncomfortable. I was in a great spot in my life at that point, too. I was two years sober. Uh, I was a VP of sales, running a team of maybe 90 to 100. We were kicking ass. I had a new girlfriend. That's my now-wife. I was managing my diabetes. I had a house, car, pets, and I had just decisively beaten cancer for the fourth time. And that's when my boss had walked into my office and asked me to do a Spartan Race. And so I went home that night, and that's when I discovered the problem was that I already was uncomfortable because I had been victimized by so much and I hadn't processed it yet. I, as a matter of fact, when I got cancer that fourth time, that was the first time I ever got it sober. I hadn't processed any of the stuff I had been through yet, and so even though I didn't feel like I was under attack at that particular moment, I was still living under that victim umbrella, because all those things happened to me, and I had failed to use find a way to use them as a power. And over the next several months, I'm going through. As I got more and more into obstacle course racing, I just started making these better decisions for myself. You know, we were talking about health earlier, right? To wake up one day and say, “I'm going to start being healthy.” Well, that's probably going to fail. That's a big switch. All right. What are the switches we can make? I put a video out this morning. I'm like, “You don't even have to give up your favorite dessert. Just drink more water.” Start there. All right. Like you don't have to go sign up for a gym. Just take another walk. You don't have to stop watching Netflix. Just take a walk around the block. Like, let's take these positive actions for ourselves. And good habits are a gateway drug because when waking up early to exercise helped me with more time with my dogs in the morning, it also gave me a reason to start going to bed at a regular time. And at 36 years old, I gave myself the first regular sleep cycle I had ever had. I wanted to keep racing, so I was stretching. I wanted to feel better. So I started eating better, drinking more water. I wanted to be mentally tougher. So, I started meditating and that's when all my worlds collided, like my sobriety, my mind, body and spirit. And that was also when I realized that I liked who I was becoming. And it was apparent to me that I was changing because of the way other people responded and the way that other people were treating me and reacting and acting around me. And it felt so good. And then it hit me. Literally hit me. I pulled up to a red light and I got hit from behind by a car that was going full speed. My Jeep got pretty banged up. Uh, I got five herniated discs and nerve damage from that accident, which, I went home that day and my cat of 12 years died. About ten days later, the woman who hit me died. And although all I was doing was sitting at a red light, that was really hard, and it is really hard to know that the last thing that happened in her life was me. And I immediately found myself back on the couch, just like I was that night after my boss had asked me to do the race and I thought I had an undiagnosed injury, so I wasn't ready to start activity yet. I was really sad. Of course, I was telling myself that I was the bad guy and that everything, you know, I somehow made all this stuff transpire, right? All this self-talk that just came pouring down on me and I wanted to quit. I wanted to give up, but kind of like you said. What does that mean? I kept going to work the next day. You know, I kept getting up and showering, I kept eating, I kept taking my dogs for walks. Like, you're still living that life even though I wanted to quit. And so the next thing I did was I put a race on the calendar, and I went outside to train for it, and I was just flat, I didn't have that thing that says I want to overcome stuff. I was just so beaten up from it. And I was listening to this motivational speaker who's given this talk about, like, being a victim or being a survivor.

And that's when it occurred to me, is I didn't see the difference because people have been telling me what a survivor I was my whole life. And then I'm like, what does that even what's the benefit of that? Like, yay, I'm still alive. Things suck and I'm miserable. Yay! So that's when I decided I don't like my choices. And I don't want to be a survivor, because I also realized at that point that I hadn't overcome any of my adversity. I had only survived it. And in order for me to overcome it, I needed to make a choice. And I didn't want to be a victim anymore. And so literally, like a rebellious teenager throwing a temper tantrum, I said, “I'm going to do all the dumb shit I can. I'm going to do things that diabetics should not. I am going to make sure I am sticking the middle finger up to cancer every single day. I am going to continue my sobriety journey and help other people recover from alcoholism. I will not be defined by my adversity, but rather my triumph over it.” And what started as a temper tantrum turned out to be my moment of clarity about being a victim, and that I had been, and that I allowed myself to stay in that victim mentality. Now, since that day, right, I've lost my dog. I've lost people that I care about and love. I've lost friends to cancer. I've been injured. They're bad. Things happen. All right. And like, uh, even last October, I injured myself in a Spartan race, mile 12 of a 30 mile race, badly injured. And I wasn't going to be able to run or workout or anything for a while. I drove to the airport. What was me on the plane? I was mad anybody who would respond to my messages was just getting anger and I do have a process. And my process was, it takes me about a day and a half. And in that day and a half I was the victim because this had happened to me. But after that is a choice. And that's my point, is that at some point it does become a choice and we don't have to stay there. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So if you've never learned how to do that. Because you were raised by victims. You were surrounded by victims. Everyone around you is and that's actually just the normal behavior. Right, is no different than the family that like, drinks Coca Cola at every single meal. And then you grow up as an adult and you don't realize that that's actually abnormal and probably not super healthy. And I think that's that's a big problem, is a lot of people don't even realize that they are because that's just how it's always been. And that's how you talk and you complain and that's what connects you to people. And it bonds you to people. And that's what's so hard about walking away from your trauma in that way. Right. So what would that look like for somebody going through something? Because it's not as easy for most people as to just be like, “Okay, I'm going to just do this and I'm going to just fight through this and I'm going to overcome.” Right. Those of us, myself included, that are defiant, right? We are defiant. We're good at that because we can just put it in a box and we can figure it out and we can move on. But those repressed emotions, I'm going to tell you right now are not healthy, right? But also for the person listening who's like, “Hey, wait.” A day and a half. Really, though, you're just going to get over something that fast.

Nick Klingensmith

Hold on, let me touch on a few things before I lose it all, okay? Because you got, there's a lot to unpack there. Um. I'm gonna start with that one. Number one doesn't mean I'm over it. I'm just choosing to move beyond it. Like, II can't tell anyone else how to process things in their life. I don't know what they've been through. I don't know their frame of reference, right I don't. So, I'm not over my dog dying. It happened three years ago. I will probably never get over that. But you still move forward. And it's still a choice to move beyond some of the things that have happened to us. So, the other thing that we, just the other part that you just said that was, oh man, there was so much to unpack there. There's a book and I'm sorry, a guy you used to work with many years ago. My old boss used to have us read all these business books. All right. And the CEO was this cranky guy who made a very good point one day, and he's like, “I'm tired of reading this crap.” He's like, we're like, what? He's like, “These guys didn't wake up and have an idea, write a book and then turn it into a great company. They got lucky, they made some good decisions, things panned out, and now they have a story to tell. So they wrote a book about it.” I want to read the book about the guy who was intentional about the things that they did. Well, that's not me either. I'm the guy who went through all this. All right. And then I wrote a book about it, and that was the act. That was actually what helped me to see everything different, because in a two year period I wrote this book, which at first is the version that I wanted everybody else to read, the ego defense version, the one where I don't get vulnerable, the one where I'm not a victim to anything. The second version, though, is the one where I had to cut out 37,000 words and I had to start getting honest with myself, and I started seeing things differently. And the reason I bring this up is because another word for this is called journaling. And I can't tell you just how much I learned from it. But throughout that process, I now am able to answer that question of resilience as a process. So, I didn't wake up and say, “I'm going to be resilient.” Just like you didn't wake up and be resilient like you had to go through it to get through it. Yeah, we are trained right. It's the opposite of the coke at dinner, every time we had to go through it, we're still alive. Now you can make a choice to do and, you know, people like this all the time who do not get off the couch, metaphorically or literally. They will not live their lives. And they cite 75 reasons why not. They are making a choice to stay in victimhood. I won't believe another scenario, because any excuse that somebody wants to give me, I'm going to highlight somebody in my life who has it worse, who lives their life better by choice. So it does come down. And that's actually the second thing that I will teach with people that I'm coaching on. The second thing is acceptance. Accepting our starting line, accepting that these things have happened to us, that they have occurred, accepting that I'm diabetic. Accept them, that I have cancer. Accepting that I have to go to doctors in order to survive. That I sleep with a machine since I was 26 years old, that I have nerve damage that acts up in the craziest of ways whenever it wants to. I can complain about it all the time and live in that victim mentality. Or I now have a process and the process for me, and this is what was gifted to me throughout my journey, and I mean gifted because it came to me when I was writing my book, literally like that. I found my purpose. My purpose is to overcome every obstacle and inspire others that they can, too. I will say that to myself before every single challenge that I face now, when my fridge breaks in the middle of the night and I'm like, how are we going to, great, we're losing all our food. I don't have $1,000 to go buy a new fridge today. My purpose to overcome every obstacle, inspire others. They can too. So this is the challenge. When I busted my hamstring, the way I got moved beyond it is on day two. I said, well, now I get to learn how to rehab a hamstring injury. I'm in it for the long game, so I the first thing people will be helpful to them is let's find out what your purpose is. And also the people that I'm coaching, the reason they're coming to me is a lot of them. They're not lost. They've achieved something. They've hit thresholds of success and achievement in their life, and now they don't know what to do. They've lost that purpose because it involves, you know, I'll be 45 in 2 weeks. And I think, “God, I'm almost there.” You know, I'm just going to say it, Dawn. I will not be the starting second baseman for the Boston Red Sox. 

Dawn Taylor

What? 

Nick Klingensmith

I know. 

Dawn Taylor

I think you need to accept that. 

Nick Klingensmith

And so I think it's probably okay that I let go of other things that I wanted when I was seven years old, too. And when I was 21 and when I was 35, and how when I was 40, the purpose evolves. And so once we find that, the second thing we work on is acceptance, and a lot of that is taking responsibility. Now, it's not my fault I'm diabetic, but I'm responsible for my diabetes. I'm responsible for living my life. This is the only life I get. If I choose how to spend it and like, keep my mind in it. And by the way, I get this because. I was the most cynical person, and if somebody told me, “Just think positive.” I might have dropped, kicked him on the spot. And when somebody says, like, you know, “Everything happens for a reason and just think positive and it'll all work out.” Like I was like, “You're so naive because bad things happen.” They happen to me. You just don't know. That's how I would respond and I would become resentful towards other people. But here's something I kind of thought about that I've learned now, right? Let's say that I submit, I'm doing some sort of a test, okay. And in five days from now, I'm going to get the result of this test. I can spend those five days thinking negatively and tell myself that I'm thinking logically and rationally, and I'm preparing myself for the worst. But really, throughout those five days, I am living in my head about every bad scenario that might ever happen. And there is a true physiological impact to that. I run by heart rate. All right. So if I'm running with like my zone two heart rate and I'm running at like, 140 beats per minute. I'm chilling and casual. If I start thinking about something negative, I look down. I'm at 150, 155.  I'm not going any faster. It's the physiological response to the negative. So I can choose to spend those five days that way, or I can choose to think positively. I can visualize positive, outstanding, awesome, bigger than my wildest dreams, outcomes. I can say everything's going to work out and if it doesn't it'll work out in the long run. I can say that over and over again and at the end of those five days, the result is going to be the result. Am I naive if I think positively and it turns out bad? Maybe. But over those five days, I wasn't making myself sick. Yeah. I'm happier for those five days. I'm just happier. That's it. I'm sleeping better. I'm more capable, and I am more capable of moving beyond whatever the bad thing that has happened in. And so, positivity is a choice. And by the way, it's not one that you just make once. So to those who are saying it's not that easy, it's no it's not, it's not easy at all. None of what I'm saying is easy. I don't pretend any of this. Keep in mind, I lived it and I talk about it all the time. So I am 100% confident that I'm right on what I'm talking about. But don't don't confuse any of that for a finger snap. It's an all the time process. It's hard work to do. This negativity is easy. You blink your eyes. Negative thoughts. 

Dawn Taylor
We're genetically wired to go to the negative. That's literally how we're wired. One thing that has worked really well for me, but also it goes all the way back to brain aneurysm day is someone asked when I realized that I could actually just fight through it, and I'd somehow figure it out. And it's a very pivotal moment where I was out of the hostel. I was supposed to be in there for months. I had been let out at two weeks because I was fine. Like, not fine, but I was good enough. I could go home in a wheelchair with the heavy meds and figure it out and rehab what I needed to after. And they sent me home and I was laying in pitch black in my bedroom. Grade 12, right? It was just April of grade 12 was when it all happened. So just imagine like you're the end of your grade 12 year was super fun. And trying to go to prom, but you're in a wheelchair. Things like that. But, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time. He came over and I was laying in the dark. Curtains, clothes, everything, and, like, just miserable. And he's like, “Hey, a bunch of us are going to the lake. Do you want to come?” And I was like, “No, I keep puking because my pain is so great. Like, seriously, like, do you get what I'm going through right now?” Like, I just had a brain aneurysm and and part of it was that I like, they'd shaved half my head and I felt ugly, and I had doubled my body size on steroids, and I felt fat and gross and nothing fit. And like everything, everything about it was just really, really hard. And I'm just 18 and he's like, well, “You can hurt at home or you can hurt at the lake.” He's like, “At least the lake is prettier.” And I'll never forget his wisdom in that moment, as like, we were kids, we were just kids, right? And I remember looking at him going, oh, how are you? And I was like, okay, that makes sense. So I started getting up and I was like, but babe, everyone just looks at my head and they just look at the giant scar across my face and he's like, no, no, no, I got a fix for that. And he had bought like, an old man, like, boat hat kind of hat. But then he had also gone to the dollar store and bought a whole bunch of really hideously ugly tattoos. Giant, giant tattoos. And he covered my legs in these disgusting, like, skull and motorbike and thorns. And he covered my legs with these hideous tattoos. And he's like, “There, everyone will be looking at your ugly tattoos and your legs instead of your head. Let's go.” And it was just this simple little act, this simple little thing that was so minor and so. Really nothing if you think about it. But it was this shift in my head, right? It was this complete psychological shift of I can hurt at home. Or I can hurt at the lake. Which one's prettier? 

Nick Klingensmith

There's, you know, a lot of the cliche expressions that we see out there. They're cliche for a reason. Choose your hard. You know, on Sunday, my wife and we're going to go to the park and do a workout. And, uh, between her sinuses and allergies and migraines and my sleep apnea and diabetes, both of us were just feeling crummy on Sunday morning. But we weren't sick. You understand? Like I'm not David Goggins. Okay? I think rest is important.

Dawn Taylor

We actually need more rest that we're getting. 

Nick Klingensmith 

I do what I do because it's how I pursue physical fitness and activity. Right? That's how a lot of the mindset stuff manifests in my life. But I'm not about “go hard” all the time, like I'm just trying to be a better me and help others to be a better them. But there was no reason we couldn't do it. And I said to her the same thing, I'm like, “You're going to feel like crap anyway. Let's just go.” And the thing is, we both went and after the workout we were both feeling better. But you know, I was sick the week before though, so it's like when those things, there's a difference between when you just, what's going to help you get closer to your goals. And sometimes rest is what's required. But sometimes it is that perspective of like, I can wallow in the self-pity here. I can maybe take some action in my life. Action inspires action, progress inspires progress. And I also remember, uh, when I had my first cancer surgery, I had a scar all through my neck here, and they use this glue to keep it shut. And so it was glossy and gross. And if you didn't, I mean, it was just glue and it was kind of dry, but you couldn't tell. And I didn't know what was scar tissue. I thought it was all scar tissue. At first I was like, “My God, how am I ever gonna leave the house here?” Yeah. And this, I write about this in my book, too. But my friends and I were going to a Jimmy Buffett convention. This was up in New England back in like 2005. It was about four degrees outside, and they had it in the hotel down in Goat Island in Newport, Rhode Island. And, you know, we're in Hawaiian shirts and stuff. And I was like, I don't want to talk about this. So as we go to this thing, anytime somebody would start to mention about the neck, one of my buddies would chime in with “Shark attack, helicopter accident!” We just started telling lies and I'm like, man, they do not tell you to duck before you get on the helicopter like all this crazy nonsense. And we said it was such, uh, I don't know, uh, glib, maybe. Confidence, I don't know, whatever. People were like, wait, what did he just say? Like, nobody really asked me about the cancer. So, there's some humor that we can use to apply to these situations, too. And that's another way that I have gotten through. A lot of it is I do find ways to make, to laugh at the situation and, you know, something else, so that's been a great metaphor for me, is I love running ultras. These are the 31 mile obstacle races because anything can happen. That's a long day. All right. Depending on the course, that could be an 8 to 15 hour day with the ailments that I have. Even that, even just somebody who doesn't have anything is still huge. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Nick Klingensmith

Yeah. There's so many different things. They could have nutritional issues, bowel issues. It could be a thousand degrees out, it could be five degrees out. They could get injured. Just who knows, right. Like, that's what life is. All this uncertainty with obstacles ahead that you know they are there. You just don't know what else are ones that are going to be there. And I'm never going to win these things. That's why I like doing the ultras and the long runs, because it's mental endurance. It's literally training me for life and the hard stuff that comes. And when you said earlier about getting through it, that's what kind of ultras are sometimes, like, I have stumbled through the fire, to the finish line. Yeah, my medal looks the same and it is rewarding though, and when you find out that you can suffer and come through the other side, then you can embrace it like a superpower. And I remember what I was going to say earlier when you talked about unpacking. Uh, when I talked about unpacking was this, I think a lot of the reasons that we do stay in the victim mentality when we do is because we do feel unique. “Nobody knows when I'm going through.” Well, when I share my stories, people share their stories back and I don't feel unique. I've been through so much, and yet I feel like I am just another bozo on the bus. I don't think I'm special, and therefore if I'm not special, my problems aren't special. It means I'm not alone. It means I actually have community. It means people. We can have conversations like ours and knowing that we have different experiences, but they're so crazy experiences and we have a connection because of them. And when I air these things out, they lose power over me. And when I use it to help other people. I have claimed that power. And now I'm not a victim to anyone or anything. So there's a lot of ways that we can use these things. But I do think, and this is why. It sounds like I'm judging those who are staying in the victim mentality, but I'm not. Because it's their choice, their life, because it is helpful sometimes. Again, like when I'm going through cancer, I don't want to feel like it's no big deal, right? Like I'm in the fight of my life. It's okay to feel that way. I also think it's really important that people understand -  it's okay to not be okay. It’s exhausting pretending that everything is okay. 

Dawn Taylor

It's okay to not be okay. And I know if you listeners have listened to any of my other podcasts, they've probably heard me say this before. I had someone to give me a review on, it was the 47 minute temper tantrum right? The pity party where I often tell people I'm like, “No, no, no, you don't have to find the positive right now. You don't have to forgive. You don't have to find it.” 

Nick Klingensmith

I didn't wake up like this. 

Dawn Taylor

I don't have to find the gratitude. No, you don't have to find any of that. But you can also give yourself permission to be really freaking angry. And so I found that that was so helpful to me. Going through stuff is yes, things get thrown on me all the time, whatever. It's life. That's just life. Like when Covid hit, people were like, oh wow, Dawn, this is a universe hold my beer moment. And I was like, yeah, pretty much. It's, I get to choose though, right? My emotions aren't in charge of me. I'm in charge of them. I get to choose how I'm going to feel. Nope. I choose how I'm going to feel. I get to choose how I'm going to process. I get to choose all of that. But I'm not talking toxic positivity. I am the first person to rage. I'm the first person to scream. I'm the first person to stop my feet. Process your anger. Process your negative, like, allow yourself to feel those feels. But, I think what we're both even saying is like, don't unpack there and move in.  Like go through it, the feeling, go through it and feel it, live it, breathe it for a second. And maybe you need a day and a half. Maybe you need six weeks. Maybe in a year. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Whatever it is that you need in order to process whatever happened to you based on your situation, your ingredients of your life, what you've gone through. Right, but then choose that. You're like, okay, I'm going to actually choose one thing today that could better my day, that could better my life, that could make it more enjoyable, that could bring me a smile, that could help me release this. 

Nick Klingensmith

That's actually the first thing is priorities and discipline. Because we for me, literally my day is planned from the moment I wake up until the end of the day. Not saying when I go to bed like, I have to because if I have too much idle time, the doubt seeks in, the negative seeps in, the wishy washy seep in. And it's not rigid. I'm the one designing it. Okay, but like so I'm waking up and I'm immediately starting, you know, I'm saying my prayers, drinking my coffee, starting my workout. And it's all pre at 430 in the morning. You don't have a lot of room for error or cognitive thinking. So I need routine to carry me through something that sucks. I don't enjoy waking up early and doing that, I don't. I enjoy being fit and active. I do enjoy working out and training. I do not enjoy doing so at 5:00 in the morning, but that's when I can do it. So the reason the worst 15 minutes of my day is when I come into my office here and I sit down and I plan the day because that's when the anxiety exists, is in that 15 minutes. And the rest of the day, I have priorities that I set that are aimed at accomplishing my goals. And I say priorities, not just objectives, because we can't be everywhere, can't be all things to all people. I have to say no to a lot. There's a lot of things I want to do. A lot of people I want to, like, talk to. There's like different things. Everyone has a new suggestion on how I can improve my business and they’re right, and I want to run them all down. But you can't. I have to say no to certain things. I'm doing this now. I'm focused on this. When doubt comes in, I'm like, “Hey, you take a number. I don't see doubt on my schedule.” I have to keep working. When imposter syndrome comes in, I'm like, I don't care. Like, dude, you set the podcast. It's not your decision whether or not Dawn's going to like you. You just get on there and be your best. Like, you move through the steps and focus on, you know, the parts that, uh, and focus on the parts that I can. Um, the other aspect, though, is that by, it's like I said, it's not every minute of every day because like today it is. But by the time I come home for dinner, that's when I get to relax. And then literally I turn the rest of it off to. So there's no room to stay in it. There's just, I'm taking action because eventually. Like I said, I can't tell you how long it takes you to process something. But I can tell you that you need to keep taking action anyways. 

Dawn Taylor

Beginning of Covid, I was doing just like a Facebook Live every single day for an hour with free coaching for people if they wanted to show up. And one of the things that someone got mad at me for and then someone else was laughing really hard at, was I was like, today your goal is to put on some damn pants. That's it. That's literally your goal of the day. 

Nick Klingensmith

It's funny and true. 

Dawn Taylor

Right? And when I talk to people about overcoming stuff. So here's where I'm going to get Nick to close his ears, is any of my clients that are listening to this are like, “Oh, he hasn't worked through his trauma and things, which is why he has to have all that in full time and full schedule.” And yes, Nick and I can talk about that outside of this or we can laugh about it. But here's the thing - I wouldn't recommend being that scheduled because it's now just masking everything else. That is my, whatever you think on that, we’re good, but, find one tiny thing. Maybe it's literally that you're going to focus on the fact that you're going to, like, brush your hair every day. Maybe you're going to put on mascara every day. Maybe you're going to put on pants every day. Maybe that's where you're starting. But when you're overcoming something, when something has come your way and it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if it's cancer, doesn't matter if it's a thyroid disease, it doesn't matter if it's a sexual trauma, it doesn't matter. It does not matter what it is. Reach out and ask. We live in an era where you can literally ChatGPT yourself through therapy. Like, it's ridiculous what you can do right now, but you can also Google, you can search, you can listen to podcasts, you can find people that have been through what you've been through, get the support. But you have to take one tiny step. One tiny step and one tiny piece of determination, but without also understanding that it's very scary to walk out of that mentality. It's so exciting because people will. Like, you might lose friends over it and you might lose your community over it. And there's fear. There is fear attached to that. And you can't out-willpower your protection mechanisms. Right. So if that is what's going on, you can't willpower them. So reach out, reach out and get some support on this. 

Nick Klingensmith

Let me clarify one thing and then, uh, the schedule thing, right? That's not about ignoring trauma. That's about ignoring the noise. Because excuses are noise.  

Dawn Taylor

My brain's like, “Yeah, but if you deal with it, you don't have the noise.” 

Nick Klingensmith

Ah, but let me finish. Because that's if you stop every time you have that feeling, you will accomplish nothing. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, for sure. 

Nick Klingemith

So it's about how to stay focused and productive towards my goals and towards my purpose. That said, that's, yeah, if you ignore it, then you're going to get drunk like I did for ten years. The way that I overcome and process, that is what we're doing right now. And it's what you said, which is talking about it and voicing it and understanding it and getting other perspectives and also not feeling alone and isolated by doing so. So those are two very different things too. And those take time. Like I said, I didn't even realize the impact on my parents’ divorce and all that stuff until like six months ago. So, of course, I'm going to continue to work through that. And I'm not ignoring that trauma. At the same time, I'm looking at my clock trying to think of an example. But if this was like two, if this was 2:45 right now eastern or whatever, 15 minutes before we were about to get on this call, no, I don't have time to sit there and think about, you know, I wasn't loved enough as a child, woe is me. How do I get through this? No, I have things in front of me that I am trying to achieve. I have people's time who have taken to be on this with me. I have to be able to say, “This is going to have to wait a minute.” And it's about priorities and discipline, because otherwise I am still letting that control me. That said, I am not trying to ignore things. I mean, I'm talking about stuff that I've never, ever talked about before or thought about before, and I don't feel scared of it. I don't feel. It's vulnerability, but it's making me feel less vulnerable.

Dawn Taylor

And that's beautiful. And thank you for clarifying a little bit of that. So let's shift this for a second. So everyone listening is like okay, wait a second. Die Hard: The Man With 15 Lives. Here's my question. Because this is something that I've been working through over the last few years, is when we live in a world full of statistics. Statistics around the chances of getting cancer again. The recurrence of things. When you've dealt with death and faced it, the amount of times that you and I have. How do you not live in fear? So I know for myself, we always joke that we live in a town called realistic denial. Right, with the roads are pretty in, the schools are nice and everyone's kind and lovely, and in that place we just continually live and we just pretend that nothing's wrong. Because we kind of have too, right? We also are big believers in taking care of our health. And I mean, it's literally when you guys listen to this, you should probably ask me how my seven-day water fast went, because I'm not talking publicly about it, but I just put it out there and I'm on day one of a seven day water fast because of the science behind the fact that it could help me not ever get cancer, right. So, I do a lot of things to benefit my health and to increase my statistics of living. But there is also the reality of it where it's like, I have a will and I have an enduring power of attorney, and I have life insurance, and I have all those things because I'm not an idiot. And I know that based on my health history, there is a very strong chance that something could go on, because that's just what's happened with my body. How do you deal with that when you have the diabetes and you've had cancer four times and you have the herniated discs and all of those things.How do you deal with that? 

Nick Klingensmith

I love the James Dean quote “Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.” Um, because absolutely my dreams take me up to about being 85 years old, give or take. I've had to. Depending on when in my life you would have asked me this question. I will answer in different ways. You got to understand that I want to live a full life, I absolutely do. But I am not afraid to die. I have long accepted that I will probably not live to be that old. And that's also why I am so less concerned about the years of my life, and so more concerned about the life in my years. That is why I pushed through so many of those things. And yeah, the amount of times I wake up after a bad night with sleep apnea and just wanting to die. I don't want to let it rob me of any more of the precious days that I have. And so I look at it like that is how you push forward. And some days, sometimes you just don't. 

Dawn Taylor

Some days you actually just shut off your phone.

Nick Klingensmith

You're like, yeah, I'm surviving today. And like I said, embracing the suck doesn't mean ignoring it. And there are going to be those days. I'm human too. I don't want them to take too many from me because I don't expect to live forever. There are times where I feel like I have been afraid of dying young, and maybe those feelings will come in again. But mostly it's feelings of like, I'm not using my time well, like that's what it boils down to. Or I'm not making the decisions that I feel are in line with who I am and what my purpose is. There were times, though, where honestly, I got really cocky. Um, I figured I was. Yeah, I just figured I couldn't be killed. And to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced of the opposite of that yet. But I think I really justified my drinking and my selfish behavior and my reckless behavior so long from being born out of that victim mindset. And therefore, I would have told you, you know, 12 years ago that I don't care when I die. I know that's not true. Now I very much care, you know, like I will. I absolutely would be upset if they're like, yeah, you're gonna die tomorrow. Like so much I'm trying to do, but it's so far beyond our control. So I take measures to make sure I'm getting the most out of my life, for sure. That's why I care about my fitness. I don't need to be winded when I'm walking up a flight of stairs anymore. And you know, I don't need to wear knee pads walking around the house, a knee strap like I used to because of inactivity. 

Dawn Taylor

Mhm. 

Nick Klingensmith

I think it's also varying times to when I was single I didn't care well, I don't have kids, but I have a wife and dogs and responsibility and like you know it's our family and our life and I'm like I want to make sure I have reasons to live. So it's definitely been an accordion-like thing for me but I also couldn't let that fear hang over my head anymore. So whether or not I mean it, I had to convince myself that I wasn't afraid.

Dawn Taylor

I give myself, so something I started years ago as I give myself one day a year to be terrified. So, I have like a day, a year that I'm allowed to grieve hard, that I'll never be a mom. And I have a day, a year where I'm allowed to grieve really hard, what the brain aneurysm took for me. And. It allows me all year when something comes up. So when a feeling comes up or an emotion comes up, or, I'm like, ooh, I'm going to grieve that really hard on insert date here kind of idea. And it gives me this weird way of going, no, no, no, I'm not ignoring this. I'm not pushing it away. I'm not trying to convince myself of something different. I'm not trying to tell myself that I'm actually totally okay with this, that there are still some hurts around this or irritations, but it's okay because I've actually set aside time to deal with it. And that's actually been a really big one for me. 

Nick Klingensmith

I call it moving beyond sadness and. I get sad, I get sad about random times. Um, I'm an alcoholic man. There's a lot of growing up I still need to do, and I'm not totally understanding all the emotions that I have all the time. And I'm processing that and learning them, and I denied them for so long. But sometimes this disease is trying to kill me and it won't tell me. And so literally, I might wake up tomorrow sad over something that happened 30 years ago, not know why and it makes me feel like I just, utter depression. I'm a terrible person. Like all those feelings just kind of come down on it. I don't know how to stop being sad, but I move past it, I move and eventually it loosens up some of that hole. And again, I'm talking about me because I don't know if normal people have the same type of emotional dysfunction that I was just talking about but I assume more people have it than you'd realize. 

Dawn Taylor

But it's often the thing that I can say this all the time is like, emotions aren't permanent. 

Nick Klingensmith

They're just feelings, literally feelings that are based off of stuff and they're not permanent. And that's a hard one sometimes that, you know, like I'm literally might be engulfed with sadness over losing my pets tomorrow morning. I don't know but I still have calls to make and I still have responsibilities. Yes, I want to lie on the couch in the fetal position and feel bad. That's what my feelings are trying to tell me.

Dawn Taylor

Schedule a day. That's the day you give yourself permission to do that. 

Nick Klingensmith

I know. I need to put that one on the calendar. Usually it's when I watch Field of Dreams or something, which we just did. So I got a good cry out the other day. But yeah, these are two things that have helped me tremendously, both with sadness, with anxiety, with victimhood, with feeling unfair, with just basically unhappiness. Number one, go play with a dog. You 

just can't be any of those things when you're staring at a smiling dog. It's it's scientifically proven, physically impossible. I made that up. But go play with it. 

Dawn Taylor

According to Nick.

Nick Klingensmith

Yeah, four out of five people on the internet agree with me that go play with the dog. 

Dawn Taylor

I like it, I like it. 

Nick Klingensmith

The second thing is help another person. Yeah, there's nothing better that gets you out of self than by focusing on someone else. And that doesn't happen. I love what you said earlier, right? The start small applies to this to let you want to blow somebody's mind, let them out into traffic. Um, you made somebody else's day. You inspired humanity in them by like, you doing that simple, small act of letting somebody out into traffic. People don't do that. I live in Florida. They're all trying to kill each other here. I don't know about you. 

Dawn Taylor

Florida is where we make fun of, that's what we make fun of. Crazy people that live in Florida.

Nick Klingensmith

Buy a cup of coffee for the person behind you in line. Think of that. Pick up a piece of trash that wasn't yours. Return a cart at the grocery store like these little small acts about just taking you out of your problems yourself. Listen to it, get it on and call them for conversation with someone else and just listen to them. Don't judge. Don't try to give advice. Just let them get it out. Sometimes that's all anybody needs. Or if they need advice, be willing to be vulnerable and share your experience. But, whenever I get really jammed up when I was at my job like five, six years ago and I really didn't like it anymore and I was, like, just tortured inside on the way to work every day, I'd say, “Who can we help today?” At least 400 people in that building, somebody one way or another, whether it be giving him sales advice, giving them a lead, giving them a ride, giving them a high five, I don't know. But helping other people get us out of our own heads, even if it's temporary.

Dawn Taylor

No, I love that. People here have heard it before. One of my big mottos in life is “How can I love you even more right now?” I owned a restaurant years ago, and you'd get some of the crappiest people and my staff are all young, right? They're all teenagers and often the customer would be so crabby that I'd walk over and I'd pull them offline, and I would step in and serve the customers, and they'd start getting mad or grumpy or whatever. And it was like, “No, I'm going to kill you with kindness today.” and I have the next, like three minutes and 48 seconds or whatever the time limit was on making the dish that they'd ordered. To shift your entire mood, to shift your day to jar something in the use of you are no longer on the same path. And that is my motto. That is my mission. And it became a thing that I created with my staff and like, “No, you have from the minute they start their order, I think like a subway-style right to the minute they get to the till to have them crack a smile at least.” And if you do, we're all going to turn and high five. Even in front of all the customers, right? And we'd have like 4 or 5 of us. And, you know, we did things like every time someone ordered a griller, which was one of the wraps we'd all break into, like, “You ordered a griller!” and we'd like to go to the Thriller dance and all these things, but it became a whole thing where it was like, no, no, no, you have no idea. You have no idea what happened prior to them walking in. You have no idea what's going to happen prior to post them walking out that door. So how do we make an impact and make a difference? And it was very interesting to teach my staff that, but also the people that came back. And we're like, “Hey, I was having the worst day of my life. And by the time I walked out of here, I felt like I was going to be okay. And I just wanted to say thank you.” And so yes, people need to. 

Nick Klingensmith

It is amazing that the small act of humanity by another person can really shift things for us. And so why not be the kindness? Why not be the person who's the catalyst? And I would do what I do for a living for free if I could. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. If we didn't have bills to pay, 

Nick Klingensmith

I absolutely would be a speaker and I would absolutely coach people on their goals. I thoroughly enjoy the work and it's how I get to give to the world is how I get to help others. But it's not philanthropy. It's not. It helps me with my view of the world. It helps me to overcome the negative stuff. It helps me to die hard. It helps me to focus on positivity. Itt helps me. I'm happier because of it. So it's not philanthropy. It's just another way of being selfish, I guess. But who cares because I'm benefiting others in the process? 

Dawn Taylor

Right. I love that, Nick. Thank you so much for hanging out today. Thank you for being on my podcast for talking about this. I mean, if nothing else, people, if you think you've had the worst life, you haven't met Nick because he's probably been a little harder. No. And I mean that in the best way ever, right? Like we always think that ours is the worst. And sometimes I remember someone saying that and being like, “There's always someone else who's like, had one more illness, one more disease, broken one more bone.” 

Nick Klingensmith. 

That's how I feel with, you know, again, I meet a lot of people like me. And one thing I would say though, is I always tell people not to compare. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, there's no comparison. 

Nick Klingensmith

We have our own frame of references and yeah, we talked about this offline before that. Yeah. The person who stubbed their nail. And that's the worst thing that ever happened to them in their life. I'm sorry that happened to you. Like, what you went through is real. And that's another thing that I think we should all accept is that it's okay. This happened. It's real. Don't compare yourself to someone else. 

Dawn Taylor

There's no chart. 

Nick Klingensmith
But we still have to keep moving forward anyway. 

Dawn Taylor
You do, you do. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for hanging out. I hope that's something you heard today. Hit home a little bit. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. And please tell your friends, the more people that feel understood and heard and seen, the better. Check out the show notes located at The Tailor Waka. For more information on Nick and for all of his contact information. You want to follow him and check him out and all of his crazy races that he's doing, and subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you again, Nick, for being here today. 

Nick Klingensmith
Thank you.

Why you would want to listen to this episode…

Caleb Nelson is a man who in one way or another, has always been exposed to cults. Whether it be the church he grew up in or the fitness group he joined, it's always seemed to follow him wherever he'd go. Today on The Taylor Way Talks, he takes these experiences along with Dawn's fascination with cults and brings forth an engaging and hard-hitting conversation about the danger that cults present even as they keep their true nature under wraps. 

Who is this for…

If you have ever encountered suspicious behaviour in a community you are a part of, it may be time to assess if they express cult-like tendencies. It's never too late to be inquisitive about it and to start asking the tough questions. This episode can serve as an icebreaker for those who are interested in exploring the topic of cults and suspicious behaviour within communities. It's important to be inquisitive and ask tough questions, and our hope is this episode can help inspire listeners to do just that.

Guest Bio

Caleb Nelson is the founder of Naked Sunday Studios and host of the Naked Sunday Podcast. As a Performance Coach, he helps impact-driven entrepreneurs and business leaders overcome burnout through holistic lifestyle transformations. With expertise in weight-loss, functional fitness, stress management, and personal growth, Caleb empowers his clients to "Look Better Naked Inside & Out,” developing both physical and internal well-being. Caleb is dedicated to creating generational health and fostering a legacy of wellness for the future, striving for World Inner Peace.

Guest Links

Naked Sunday - https://nakedsundaystudios.com

Instagram - https://instagram.com/nakedsundaystudios
BITE Method - https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/

About Dawn Taylor

Dawn Taylor is the professional ass-kicker, hope giver, life strategist, trauma specialist, and all-around badass. Dawn's journey into helping others heal began when she took her personal recovery from the trauma she experienced in her life into her own hands. While at times unconventional, Dawn’s strategic methods have helped hundreds heal from traumas such as issues related to infidelity,  overcoming addiction,  working through PTSD from sexual, emotional, and physical abuse, as well as helping cult survivors thrive. Dawn’s work has empowered entrepreneurs, stay-at-home moms, and CEOs alike to be superheroes in their own lives. Having completed thousands of hours of training from many professional programs, including the Robbins Madanes Training Institute, Dawn’s blunt honesty will challenge your thinking, broaden your awareness, and help you achieve the outstanding results you are worthy of.

Connect with Dawn here at The Taylor Way: Consultation Call | Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn

Get to know Dawn on a deeper level through her book! Order Here

P.S. I Made It, is a powerful story that grabs you through its lack of pretension and honesty. Every page reveals another layer of curious wonder at both Dawn’s life and the power of hope that moves within each of us. Dawn’s hope is that you use this book as a resource to deal with your struggles. Share it with someone who needs it. We all want to feel like someone understands what it’s like to suffer through something and – come out the other side. She describes her life as “horrifically beautiful and beautifully horrific. 

Thanks for listening!

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Views Expressed, Legal and Medical Disclaimer

This podcast (including any/all site pages, blog posts, blog comments, forums, videos, audio recordings, etc.) is not intended to replace the services of a physician, nor does it constitute a doctor-patient relationship. Information is provided for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. You should not use the information on this podcast for diagnosing or treating a medical or health condition. If you have or suspect you have an urgent medical problem, promptly contact your professional healthcare provider. Any application of the recommendations in this podcast/website is at the listener/reader's discretion. The views and opinions expressed are those of guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policy of Dawn Taylor, The Taylor Way and or its Associates. The before mentioned are not liable for any direct or indirect claim or loss. 

Transcript 

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today. Oh my goodness. Okay, so you guys are gonna enjoy this episode so much. I get to talk to the phenomenally hilarious, funny. I don't even know how to describe him. Caleb Nelson. He is the founder of Naked Sunday Studios. Hosted the Naked Sunday podcast. You should go on his podcast. You have to be naked. No, I'm totally kidding. You don't. I didn't have to be naked. He's a performance coach. He helps impact driven entrepreneurs, business leaders overcome burnout. He is all about looking better naked inside and out. And he is just an incredible human being. And we've had so much fun hanging out off and on over the last few weeks. And today we're diving into “Are You In A Cult?” Yeah, that's right, we are. Before we get started, I just want to put a heads up that we're going to be talking about some religious stuff today. We're going to be talking about cults. We're diving into all of the things. But I hope you take the time to actually listen to this and to get to know Caleb, because he is just a really, really incredible guy. Welcome to the show, Caleb.

Caleb Nelson

Well, thank you for having me and getting me blushing right off the rib and we already laughing our asses off before we got on here. So I mean, let's just keep the ball rolling. Here we go, here we go. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. So, Caleb and I were having a conversation a while ago about how there's cults all around us. So if you don't know me in my personal life, I'm, like, weirdly obsessed with cults. Like, been to some crazy called headquarters, done some probably dangerous things, but we're just not going to talk about that because my husband might shoot me if he knows. But 

we were talking about cults and how we look at them as just like the big cults, right? The big name ones that we see on TV or the news or those sorts of things, but really they're all around us. And the reason why I got into this topic is you were raised in a cult. So tell us. And you live literally down the road from, like, Nexium headquarters, which is kind of wild. You’re just surrounded by these things, aren't you? 

Caleb Nelson

It seems so. Follow me. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. But wanted to dive into this and like, what is it like being raised in a cult and what is the mindset behind it and all of those things and how to know if we're in them? So tell us a little bit about your childhood and what that looked like for you.

Caleb Nelson 

Mhm. So I grew up in the Unification Church otherwise known as the Moonies. Um, they were really known for their mass weddings, it was, what, 70s and 80s? And my parents, my parents were in it. They had, were in one of these weddings. They were actually in the Guinness Book of World Records for the largest mass wedding. And they were married in Madison Square Garden alongside a few thousand other people. Um, and they also had arranged marriages. And when I talk arranged marriage, I'm like, this dude was like you and you person, like, you to go talk like that's going to happen. There's some other conditions and other stuff like that. Apparently that went on beyond that. And I was. I am considered like the second gen or second generation. So my parents are first generation and I was the spawn of then I was supposed to have followed suit with what they called the blessing or the matching, have the matching and then get the blessing. The matching is of course, being having your mate chosen for you. And then the blessing would be, you're getting married. Um, I'm sure it goes without saying. I did not follow that path. But that was, that was the kind of the overarching concept of what I think about when I look back, um, I should tell everybody this because I'm here at a place in my life I'm incredibly grateful for how I was brought up. Um, the ultimate things that I dealt with in my life were real talk, first world problems. Um, and I have an incredible relationship with my parents now and my siblings and all that. Um, but when I look back on it, this construct around an arranged marriage, when I really look back at the things I've struggled with in my life. I believe one of the greatest ways to receive love is in the form of a spouse. That decision was completely left. I was completely left out of that. That paradigm. My opinions, my choices, my wants, my needs, my individuality like I was left out of the discussion. So that's led to an interesting life of figuring out, like, who am I in all of this? How do I receive love? Where do I fit in all of this? And some constructs around a lot of subservience to things and issues with authority. Kind of classic stuff that comes from people who rebel from those types of things. I think my scenario was a little more unique in the sense that, you know, I still went to public school. Until I got to see a different way that life happened. It wasn't just like I was in some commune somewhere doing just those things, I wasn't. That was not how I grew up. Um, so I would go to, like, church on Sundays or things like that. Um, but it definitely had the classic rigid, dogmatic belief structures similar to what you think of like a very rigid, like, Catholic kind of. Yeah, upbringing, a lot of shame and guilt around like or just restriction around things like the opposite sex or no dating. No, no, no to those things were permitted. So, I was more or less functionally mute, at least the way I look at it from a socialization standpoint, I couldn't talk to people other than about, like, sports or school. I really didn't know how to talk to adults. God forbid I had to talk to the opposite sex. That was just not happening. And there was just such a fear and a misunderstanding of that, it was so foreign to me. Um, that was at least how I experienced things. Um, and as I've gone along, as you said before, I look back and I look at some of the things I've struggled with that moved into the fitness field and my career. I started to see the wrinkles of, well, this shows up. These constructs show up in everything and almost everywhere, from people's nutritional plans to how people's jobs to how they go about their marriages. Like we're all in these very rigid dogmas, these stigmatized structures that do mostly nothing other than to separate each other and to alter other people, and also in their inherently separate you, your individuality, from yourself. And there's a long intro to my thoughts around how I grew up. That was ultimately how I experienced it for myself.

Dawn Taylor 

Totally. So let's break it down just a little bit. For people that have never heard of the Moonies or the Unification Church, I'm sure the majority of people have seen, like, the images of the mass weddings and that sort of thing. What was the base of the beliefs? 

Caleb Nelson

Uh, so it is rooted or based in Christianity. But what was believed, and this is my recollection, is that Jesus was not supposed to die on the cross and instead was supposed to live on, have a family and show the world how to live. And the belief or the state. Yeah, I'll lean into that in a second. The belief or the stated element around this guy, Reverend Moon stated that he was the next coming of Christ, and that he went on and fulfilled the mission and liberated people and so on and so forth. Inherently, when I think about that from a logical standpoint, I look at how most people behave nowadays. I believe a lot of people behave like martyrs. And they look to follow that model like I'm supposed to be dying for things. And I think it's like, think of the classic mom who plays martyr. And it's hard not to like, hate on moms like,mom. Love you. And I get it. It's like, but I did all these things for you, and I sacrifice all these things for yourself. We have all these people living this way, but not a lot of people know how to live for their family. They don't know how to live or the next generation. Um, and why? I've seen some of that stuff. Why I think it's so important that we address some of this is that, I'm obviously, I spent a lot of time on things like, the health field and the wellness field. You see so many people destroy themselves. But are not realizing that what they're modeling as success for the next generation is merely how to destroy yourself, not how to live from abundance, and then teach that and generate that into the next generation. Um, so that was a framework that I've questioned a little bit. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it's wrong. And, you know, everybody has their religious beliefs. But that was something that just that slightly different perspective on that. Now, when I took it outside the context of the, the church or whatnot, I see that and go, well, there's a lot of, there is some merit to that statement, how people need to perhaps rethink the way they're existing in their life. Because if all like success is deemed dying for everybody else's sins, well, you're always playing martyr and you're not actually allowing other people to realize their potential. Um, so I think there is something around that. But all that to be said, I did also see the problems that come with some gurus, some dude saying I'm the next coming. Here's how things are kind of going out. I saw plenty of people living in poverty and not having to make. That kind of stuff just stripped lots of all the classic things, like weird things, all the classic stuff, like, here's this guy, why is he living so lavishly? And all these other people are living this way that I still remember. There's a couple events I remember going to, and for the record, this was part of me. Struggling with, dealing with my own stuff around abundance and receiving good things is that I saw this disparity. And there's this one event I still remember, like it was on the stage. And I think one of his kids was like singing or just like this whole thing, but it was just very the contrast was so powerful. And that has stuck with me like, well, this this doesn't seem right. Something seems off here. I feel like there's a misappropriation of this. Now, that's not to say people who are successful in their own way, like everybody should think. I believe in capitalism for a reason. You work and you do the extra thing and you provide more value. You should be rewarded for that. Um, but when it's under the guise of  “I am here to save you.” As opposed to I'm going to give you some tools for you to save yourself. It's a very different conversation because it's not putting people above the other. It's saying, “Hey, we're both humans. How can I support you in this?” Those are some things that really stuck out for me. And I could see the abuse of power. I could see how people would just give over their life savings to all this stuff. And then, you know, they're kind of left to their own devices. Um, and that's not everybody. I made plenty of great relationships through that. The flip side is I also saw the power of community, and that you can get a lot of people doing a lot of things. And they did some like people did some great things, like I saw them, my mother, incredibly charitable, incredibly giving, incredibly loving. And she has friends that do the same thing. It's just, I think that there's something that people don't understand, community, if things at the top are not sorted out. That guilt and shame that I was talking about, that othering if you are if you're not following the path, you're kicked out and like, screw you. There's that shunning element of that you feel like you're not. Like you don't belong anymore. So again, classic kind of stuff. 

Dawn Taylor

I don't say that's so much of why people join in the first place.  Right. Is this epidemic of loneliness and wanting to be part of community and wanting to be part of something, and we see it everywhere. So I'm sure you've heard of the BITE model. Sorry. Have you heard of this? 

Caleb Nelson

I have not.

Dawn Taylor

The BITE model and we'll link it in the show notes. But it's the BITE model of a theory. Authoritarian control. And it goes through like how to know if you're in a cult and how they go about it to like get you in. It's very, very interesting. And they go through a whole thing on like, it's behavior, information, thought and emotion. And it lists a bunch of things because it says, you know, like we're all part of things all the time that you could be like, oh my gosh, that's a cult. But other things you're like, no, no, that actually hits a few too many of these on this list. And it's very interesting, these lists, I'll send it to you. But like, behavior controls like regulate individual's physical reality dictate where or how and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates. When, how, and with whom the member has sex. Types of clothing and hairstyles. Regulates diet, manipulation and deprivation of sleep, financial exploitation, manipulation and or dependence. And it goes through a whole bunch and it gets into like some pretty harsh stuff. But information control, right? Deception, withholding information minimizing or discouraging access to non cult sources of information. Right. So like the Internet, TV, radios, books, articles, encouraging spying on each other. Thought control requires members to internalize the group's doctrine as truth. Might change your name or identity. Um, emotional control, which goes into manipulation and narrowing the range of feelings. Teaching emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger and doubt. Making people doubt themselves. Very very interesting list. And yeah, we're going to take it all in the show notes. If you want to go check this out and go find it for yourself. But when  it comes to that. What's interesting is, so for years I've studied cults. I've read books on cults. I've gone to cult headquarters. Like I went to the branch of the Davidians, rebuild compound in Texas, and was chased off with guns. Like, I've done some really, really crazy, stupid stuff around cults, but the thing for me is always comes back to at what point have we lost us? And let go of a piece of us to allow someone else to control it. Right where we actually stop being critical thinkers.  Right. So the mom who hands her kids over to like, someone to abuse them or marry their child at nine, ten, 11 years old. When you hear of cults that were like the, you know, drink something and poison everybody, like, where does that fundamental like, “Wait a second, this isn't okay.” 

kick in. And you see it all the time. And people in my life joke that I like. I'm too obsessed with cults. I see them everywhere around me where I'm like, “Oh no, no, that networking thing is a cult. Run for your life. That fitness program and how they're doing i, tthat has a way too many cult-like things about it.” But if you think about it, it is everywhere around us. Right? So when you're raised in that where you're, you know, taught how and this could even be a family like your family can be a cult in and of itself in the control that they have over you. Right? So when you look back at your childhood and your youth and obviously you've walked away from it and did not have an arranged marriage or any of those things, but in the conversation you and I had had. You would then went on to do, like, some fitness stuff that you were like, “Holy crap, this is also a cult.” Where have you now seen all of that stuff later in life?

Caleb Nelson

So, I'll give you this. We'll tap into what you just talked about. So. I found, I want to first hit on what you're talking about. Epidemic of loneliness. I think that's what ultimately brings people in. But I would go to that. Like, it's not just what I think loneliness. I talk about like a spiritual loneliness. I don't feel connected to something bigger than myself, which I'm like, you feel empty. You don't feel like you are enough. Which inherently is the problem. And when I think you join a cult with, like this, the more rigid and dogmatic I have seen a structure, it's the more I've realized that the person in power actually feels very much the same way. You can see it with the CEO, you could see it with a religious figure, you can see it with any one of those things. The more they feel empty on the inside, they're using this external perception of like, “I have a lot around me to fill that void.” And again, you can see that anywhere. You can see it in any structure. And that feeling of like, “I have strength because I have numbers makes it feel good.” But if you really, like, the second, you don't fit into the complete narrative, there's the problem. After high school, so I made my separation at 17. I made a whole big stink about it, and I left the thing and kind of started. 

Dawn Taylor

Can I ask, what did that look like for you? Because a lot of cults when you leave, even like, like Amish communities, things like that, like you leave, you are ostracized. You're shunned, like you hear all these stories. So what did that look like within the Moonies?

Caleb Nelson

The beauty of my situation was that I on the outside was living a fairly normal life. Most people nobody knew, like my friends in school, did not know. I had a couple friends that were in the church that also were like my close friends around me. But you know, on the surface nothing really changed other than like I just stopped going to church stuff. Now, I also knew I was probably, I subconsciously definitely could tell my father no longer bought into all the stuff. Um, and that was probably, I don't know, maybe I was ten, 11, 12 years old. I could just tell he stopped going to church stuff and whatever. And I've had also, in that a very powerful example of two people, my parents. I'm speaking of two people who think very differently about the world, have a common goal and a common purpose, and they could still have a successful and happy marriage. Each of them have uniquely told me that. So fast forward to when I'm 17, has all great stories that there was a girl and I wanted to date this girl. And you know what? I look back and like I should, I was like your model kid. I did great in school. I was an athlete. I didn't cause problems. I just did. And it was pretty easy for me. I could just check the boxes of your All-American white boy and, so you think like, oh, this guy wants to go date girls. And I probably must have thought this way. I wanted to be responsible. I wanted to be respectful. My parents, the eldest of four kids. I do have a deep appreciation for revering your elders and thinking bigger about “It's not just about me here.” So I still remember. I sat my parents down. Nothing had happened. Um, I was like, listen, there's this girl, I want to do this. And this is I want to talk to you about it before I made a decision, um, or before I was pursuing it. And so the effect of, like, there's going to be consequences. And it was really like, hey, I was cut off from the money that I was saving up and stuff. And they just ultimately, I know they just wanted to protect me, but there was an emotional, like arm's distance very quickly. I just didn't talk to them. Probably around three months. I still live there at home, like I wasn't living in a commune so, my personal experience, I didn't have that. There's plenty of other people got different experiences around that. Like, I think my parents both lived in a communal setting for quite some time, but in my experience, the gift I had was on the surface, they kind of just continue to live a normal life, but I just didn't have a real relationship with my family and I already still, and growing up. I felt this way for my entire life. I just don't feel like I'm kidding. I feel like I'm an outsider in every place I'm in all the time. Um. Yet I always desire community. Go figure. Why? It would be a great little cult follower if I agreed with what was going on at the top. 

Dawn Taylor

I was like, I can send you a list of cults if you need a new one to join. 

Caleb Nelson 

Sign me up for the new thing! So, my identity was a lot to strap to, like being an athlete at that time in my life. Um, I cared a lot about training and all those other types of things and so much to like, I won best body in high school, and after I talked about, like after I left the church, I started talking like I could talk about other things. And I won most chains like silly things. But like, symbolically, I look back like this kind of is a platform for the rest of my life, like wellness and then changing and evolving. But in college, I lost that sense of identity and did the class of college thing and kind of got out of shape. But then I found CrossFit my junior year and, you know, in many ways, CrossFit became the new little cult that I followed. Um, and with all things, it has trade offs and it has lots of things. But, um, we were pretty dogmatic about how we got about it. I bought in full bore. I found the sense of community. I found it wrapped around competition. I was good at it. I could get accolades, I could get prestige. I could like my version of of the American Dream. I was checking all these boxes and that's where I started my career. Um. But, you know, it got to this point where there was also like the food, there was like it was the way and it was like, you're all in or not. Um, but when I opened my first gym with my business partner. We. It was, um, so Albany, where we were the first place we ran that place, like a frat house. It was wild. Um, it was great for growth, but that area was definitely what I call more transient. You didn't have a lot of people like staying there. And then I opened my second, my first location with him in a neighboring town called Clifton Park. And that's more of a bedroom community the more families. And I started to notice there was this distinct difference in the people we were serving. Now, my background was more like my, I studied kinesiology in college and a lot more like rehab and mobility and that kind of stuff. So my perspective on how I approached even CrossFit and athletics in the first place was already different, but I was starting to notice the difference in what people cared about. And I could not have communicated to anybody then, but I was starting to feel this divide within myself of like, “Where am I going with my life? I don't really give a shit about the points on your scoreboard because of how much you lifted today. I really don't care.” I don't. And for that, like. I used to live and die by my programming and thought it was like, the most important. Like the way I thought about food was just like this narrow box and like, it has to be paleo or then it has to be zone. It has to be. I've tried all the crash diets. Um, but you could see the same thing. It was just a longing for that. And it was very powerful. And there was a lot of great things we did. Um, but I still remember when he and I had a split, and I realized that when I look back, it's because I was evolving into the next phase of my life. Unceremoniously. Mind you, it was really a dark time in my life, but opened the door to a lot. There was the same kind of rift, all these people that I thought I had connections with, I did not have connections with. That was - It was us versus them. It felt like a cold war for about a year, like the between the two gyms. It was just a weird time. Um, all of this to describe it. There was this rigid belief on, like, how does it have to be done? As opposed to here's some tools. They happen to be like fitness training tools. And there's some concepts around food and there's some other conversations where we were having, we were talking, we brought in some people about leadership and things like that. “Here's some tools.” No different than any other self-help personal development stuff that you will see out there, which I think a lot of people really struggle to hear that. No, like, this is stuff that is kind of universal. Go to almost any other program. They're going to have the bones of all the stuff you're talking about. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, totally.

Caleb Nelson

Religious things. So that's where you get, I started to see, like, there's this dogmatic thing. And don't get me wrong, I was still operating from scarcity. I turned into a bit of my own cult leader in my second gym. Because this is my way. Fuck everybody, I'm showing you all that I'm right. I want to be the man. Believe you me, I've had to pay a heavy price learning those lessons. Yeah, but there's a saying in, like, the health field, in the fitness field, trying to change somebody's diets. Like, trying to change their religion because of all those concepts we just talked about their diet, their lifestyle is wrapped up. And it's not just the food on the plate. There's a communal aspect. Think about family dinners. There's a culture that shows up on the old beliefs what's good food, bad food? How much? What's right, what's wrong? Did you come from a war-torn region? Did you have food scarcity? All those types of psychological things are wrapped up into that. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So much.

Caleb Nelson

This happened to be that version of a fitness called all this to also remind everybody I'm still friends with plenty of people on CrossFit and all those other stuff. And a friend of mine like, like is higher up in the CrossFit thing, but I no longer could be bought into that because it wasn't. It was more about the vehicle than it was about here's some tools. How do you want to use it? That was at least my expression and interpretation of how it was going down. But I see, like the gift in all of everything where I'm describing here is. I can see the trickle down effect to the people at the bottom of any organization, that being usually the clients or the staff. Yeah, because you have to just listen to like three sentences that they're saying and like how they talk about stuff. Is there an individual ownership? Do they think critically about the things or is like, is this the way and the only way? And like my friends always joke like, “Caleb, you got culty eyes. So like you're born to be a cult leader.” 

Dawn Taylor

That is so true, you do have culty eyes.

Caleb Nelson

You gotta make fun of it. Because you know what? It's right there. A born cult leader, apparently. So that was, I should say, that's actually been one of my biggest fears in life is like, once you know that these are tools and often you're talking about building influence and they're very powerful. How are you building community? Well, community is very important if you're going to build a business. Guess what you're trying to do. You're trying to get people to buy into some concepts. And then especially if it has to do with anything in the personal development space. Now you get talking about ethics and morals and identity and all that stuff. It's a fine line that everybody walks with in this. Um, and I share that because I realized where one of my greatest failures in the past was operating from scarcity, that I did not feel like I was enough, so that I quickly slipped into the same thing. And I think and I share that because people get that way about their politics. They get that way about their religion. They get that way about their food. They get that way there about their business. And everybody has the capacity to be that. And I did. And often it's done under the guise of, well, I'm just trying to help people. Oh, yeah. Not realizing the other damage that you're doing to other people in the process. And you can't make everybody happy. I'm not saying that. But the intention and the understanding and the introspection that comes around that is, I think that's the important thing that that entire soapbox rant led into. And I don't even know if I properly answered the original question, so I apologize if I missed that one.

Dawn Taylor

That’s okay. One of the things that kept popping up into my mind is also the fact that we don't. No one feels like they have an identity anymore. 

Caleb Nelson

Mhm. 

Dawn Taylor

And you and I talked about this on your podcast when you're like and like I had this conversation that day with someone where it was like, “So who are you?” And I was like, “ah, I'm scrappy and I'm a fighter and I'm sassy.” And they're like, “No, no, no, what do you do?” And I was like, “Sorry, I thought you asked who I am.” And they're like, that's a really different answer. And I said, well, I have spent a lot of years removing myself from the labels that were put on 

me. Right. And the labels that I put on myself. And so much of these, like so much of the struggle I see right now, is like, “But who am I and why am I here?” And I don't know those answers. And I honestly think that a big struggle is that we don't have an identity. Most people do not have an identity outside of external factors. They don't know who they are. They're not comfortable with themselves. So when somebody can give them an identity, it feels very safe. 

Caleb Nelson

Yeah, let's unpack that. So I stumbled across this term spiritual fitness not that long ago. And. lends itself exactly what you're talking about. When you think about spirituality from this lens, its identity and purpose, much like what you said, like, what am I doing with my life? But what am I grounded in? And just like you said, it's so convenient to fall into somebody else's label. Because you're like, oh, these are the expectations. This is society's expectations.

Dawn Taylor

They give you a set of guidelines and rules that you live your life by that makes you feel safe. 

Caleb Nelson

And of course the problem there is climb that ladder and then you realize it didn't scratch the whole itch like great, you won the game of being the best of this external thing. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh. There's always another level, another course, another point system.

Caleb Nelson

And you see people chasing that. I'm sure you've seen it like every coach is like, “I'm just cert chasing or I'm credential chasing.” Or, you know, whatever the thing is, and that's the crash diet lifestyle in and of itself is like, I keep jumping from one identity, one structure to the next, not taking a moment like they're all kind of the same thing. How do you integrate that? How do you integrate the real you into that? And I think the hard part is if I'm not an external label, I'm not this group, indexed group identity thing, then who am I? Well, one of the things that I've done with that and that was probably one of when the whole creation of Naked Sunday really happened, it was asking that question. I think that's a real spiritual awakening. Like, I'm tired of that. And it takes a lot of exhaustion to get there. Um, but to truly self-actualizee, you have to really say, like, “Who am I? And what do I care about? And what am I? What's the foundation of my soul?” And for me, one of the pillars of that, like, is core values. I believe if you define yourself by your core values, that's intrinsic definition. Let's take that one step further, though. I think most people go about defining core values quite poorly. 

Dawn Taylor

And I was going to say.

Caleb Nelson

Well, maybe you've had the same experience. I've done it more core values exercises than I care to recount. And there were nice. I feel good for a few minutes, but it always summed up like, here's a sheet of paper with a bunch of words on it that sound really nice, and they're all great 

Dawn Taylor

Or can't grab you yet.

Caleb Nelson

But inherently there's somebody else's words. And when I really investigated how I answered those exercises. I was always looking for words that inherently the social group I was a part of at that time would deem acceptable and would approve of me for sharing. Those are my core values, which makes sense when I say that out loud. Um, but same problem. I'm still finding a way to just look for other people for approval. 

Dawn Taylor

Still all external. 

Caleb Nelson

All external. So when I really got down to like, what? How did I solve this for myself? I created what I call it the anti value method and it starts with “What do I hate?” And sounds weird because all everything in my life is all love and peace, love and rock and roll. Like I like to be happy. I really don't hate anybody in my life. But this vehicle of hate is so powerful because I'm sure you've had this when you with your coaching clients like so what do you want? They will list off 15 different things that they don't want before they even closely approximate a concept. Narrowing in slightly, maybe possibly on what they do want. 

Dawn Taylor

Always.

Caleb Nelson

So of course, like it was like staring me in the face the whole time. I was like, somebody can tell you what they hate real fast. And that's because it's a survival mechanism. What is disgusting to me, what repels me, what makes me angry? It's making it angry real fast. Um, and if you leverage it properly, that's really powerful. So, my example is always these things that drive me nuts. Shitty table manners just drives me up the wall. People that don't hold the door say please and thank you. Little things like they are small, symbolic, neurotic things to me that say I don't respect - blah. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, people that are rude to servers or cashiers or that is one of my biggest, like, I have gone for coffee or lunch with someone and I'm like, “Oh, hell no.” Like, never seeing this person again. Won't work with them, won't give them my business, won't refer people to them. And I've had other people be like, that's a really weird standard that you're holding people to. And I was like, and that's okay. But I'm allowed to think that, and I'm allowed to judge based on that. If I want to give you my business. 

Caleb Nelson

1,000%. So, and I think that's what people struggle with is that it's scales. Like it could be some egregious thing. But fundamentally you often see this, the classic, uh, the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. Now, that's not a universal thing. But hey, if you don't speak to this person this way. Yeah, like in generalities, it often works very clearly. But the powerful thing underneath, defining like a list of things you hate, you can find a common theme. And for me, underneath that, okay, it was disrespect. So my anti value was disrespect was the opposite of that respect. Oh, okay. Now, here was the funny thing. Once I learned that like, okay, my first core value is respect. I had to then go evaluate my life and say, where am I not respecting others? Where am I not respecting myself? That one illuminated a lot of things for me, namely because I learned that most people won't define their core values or spend the time to do it because they don't want to be held accountable to their own shit. Because once you say it, you're like, oh my God, no, I'm just, oh, I was not. I didn't take care of my health this week. I just, like, threw that thing to the side. I wasn't respecting the thing that I was supposed to be getting done. I just spent all my time complaining and bitching and moaning about this other person. Like, I am doing exactly what the other person is saying. I'm and I'm upset about in a different way, but it's the same thing. That's really hard. But I think the beautiful part about that is at a minimum, you start to get clarity on “Oh, this is what I care about, and this is the foundation upon which I stand.” And I can start with things like, I'm going to hold the door for somebody. I'm going to start with saying please and thank you to the waitstaff. I'm going to just, little things like that. And it's more, it's more an expression of your true, authentic character than it is about grandiose things. And I am, this thing. It's like, no, I show up this way, this is who I am, and I think of that as you, but you bringing that up, I think that that identity piece like, oh, that's, that's who I am, that's the foundation from which I live. That's the foundation from which I operate. Makes it a lot easier to go about your life and I'm sure you felt the same way, but once you become that, it's very obvious for you. You start telling me that I'm like. I understand exactly what she's talking about, those things like somebody being a dick to somebody like that and like, oh, it's like, why are they raining? Why are they raining on your parade? I'm like, you say that? I'm like, she's got standards. All right. Cool. Somebody like me, but like, I'm going to take one more step closer to her because you have thought about that. Because you have the standard. You become a magnet for that type of thinking, for that type of behavior. And if you like how you feel when you do those things, go figure. You're going to like how the other people operate because they do the same thing, or at least their intentions are coming from the same place. Go figure. The community you actually create resonates authentically with you, and you're very happy about what shows up in your life.

Dawn Taylor

My values is, one of the things that I, um, created that I do a lot with clients is this whole thing. I'm like figuring it out and like, what is your purpose? Why are you here? What is it you want to, what is the change you want to make in the world? To put it in cheesy wording, right. But then figuring out those values and then branding it, which then, like you said, like, it dictates so many of your decisions in life, but also who enters into your life so minor, do it different, give it away, be it all, do it on purpose and love even more. And there's things that are attached to that. But it's even like, give it away. And every time, even as a company, like I had a meeting with my accountant yesterday going over my corporate year end and she's like,”Oh, do you have any donations this last year?” And I was like, “Oh yeah. And I pulled this like a stack of receipts.” Right. And she just shakes her head and starts laughing. And then I'm like, give it away, give it away, give it away, give it away. Now you got to give it to a stranger, right? Because that's jokingly what we do even in the office in our marriage when we give things away. But that's so tied into my values of who I am as a person, who I am as a business owner, who I am as a wife, and as a friend. Right. And I think people really need to dig in and do that work to figure that out for themselves. But going back to this identity piece. I honestly think one of the reasons why people are so terrified to figure these things out is because then it actually holds them responsible. And when we can just follow somebody else and leads be led by somebody else, then we can blame them for our failings. I remember being part of a networking group, and anyone listening that knows I won't name them because I'm sure I'd get in trouble. But they're worldwide and very popular, and I was part of this networking group for about five years. And, you know, it was great at the beginning. It was great for, like, meeting people and meeting other business owners and doing all of those things. Then it was like, oh, but now you have to do training and now you have to do weekly training, and now you have to have continuing education units. And I was like, look, I do schooling constantly. I'm reading constantly. Like, I don't want to do your stupid program with your, like, leader. And then I'd get in trouble and I get written up for saying no. And I was like, “Oh, this is a cult.” And then it's like, no, no, no, you're going to volunteer for stuff. And we're going to do more training and more training and more training, and they're tracking everything. And I was like, “No, this is just kindergarten for business owners. Right.” And it was this moment of, I'll never forget the day I was talking to this woman. She'd owned a business very successfully for a lot of years, and at this point, she had volunteered for so many higher up things within this networking group. Her business went under. Yeah, under the guise that she was like, no, but this is building my business and this is bringing me clients and this is. And I'm like, “No, no, no, all your hours are going into volunteering for somebody else's for profit business. Like, do you realize that?” And I just remember sitting there and thinking, “Holy cow!” Like, at what point are you looking at your books and going, no, no, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay that my business is going under. But if I volunteer five more hours, maybe I'll get another client. If I go to one more networking event, maybe I'll find some more clients. And it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And every time I see it in a coach where it's like, “No, you got to sign up. Just one more, one more, one more workshop, one more thing, one more, one more, one more.” And I'm like, “No, no, no, I want to help you. I want to teach you the tools. And then I'm going to punt your ass out of the nest, and I'm going to be here to catch you if you fall. And I'm always here if you need anything, but, like, I'm not your cult leader. I don't want to create a codependent relationship.” Right. But at the same time, I have to own. If I fail, same as I own. If I succeed. And I think that's a big piece of it. I think that people are just desperately needing something. I talk to people all the time that have like, left that networking group. We're so happy to get away from the toxicity in the drama and all the garbage. We went with it and they're like, yeah, I think I'm going to go back. And it's like, because you don't trust yourself to be a business owner on your own. Because you don't trust yourself to be able to build relationships outside of someone telling you who to talk to, who to have coffee with, who to meet with, who to refer to. Because we are so uncomfortable in that we need a label. We need a label of what we do, who we are, who we hang out with, what our priorities are. And that, it breaks my heart. It honestly breaks my heart for people. 

Caleb Nelson

Well, first and foremost, you get bonus points for Red Hot Chili Peppers references. I'm a big fan, so bonus. Sign me more up with you. Let's go. 

Dawn Taylor 

I have a program. No, just kidding, I love that, I have a program. 

Caleb Nelson

That was really good. That was really good. 

Dawn Taylor

No, but yeah, I do, I sing that all the time. Every time I give money away or like I write a check for something like, I was doing another donation or something this morning and I'm like, give it away, give it away, give it away, give it away now like, but it's branded and it's memorable and I'll never forget my value because I get to sing it every time.

Caleb Nelson 

1,000%. And it also tells a story, which ultimately that's what people remember. I’m taking a wild guess and knowing which networking group, but they're all kind of the same thing. There's the same shtick. And I've actually, I'm loving that you said it like it's kindergarten, but like, I was like, it's networking for beginners. Like there is value to having a structure. Most people don't know. It's the “Hey, this is the only way.” And it's pitched that way. And I find that is scarcity based selling. Because if it's that good, somebody staying around because it's already making them the money, like almost immediately it would make them the money because you're that good. You'll follow through. And I think something that's important we're talking about here, and I think it's important to be held more in this coaching space. Is more, more or less. Especially in podcasts. Are we empowering prospects with the tools to improve their BS detector? Something like saying, my job is to put myself out of a job, like I want to kick you out the nest because that was the point. If we're creating the co-dependent relationship or if you become the crutch. That's the problem. That's that whole martyrdom thing that we were talking about before. It's just a whole, it's a new thing. And I think a lot of people don't understand how problematic that becomes, not even just for the client, but actually for the coach or the business owner. As somebody who operated from that for a while, you start to realize now you have all these people that are so dependent on you to make any decision. It's exhausting. It's so tiresome. And then you start to become resentful but not realizing, wait, you created that relationship in the first place because you operated from that, and it's usually, oh, I needed to make money or need to do it. So you pitch the scarcity based solution. Overpromise and underdeliver. 

Dawn Taylor

Of course, afford to not work with me. That's my favorite line from the coaches. 

Caleb Nelson 

Yeah. Yeah, you hear that stuff, you know, and I'm sure you get the same, like, the best clients are the ones that are like, yeah, I get it. And I didn't have to do a wind up for a sales pitch. It's like, and I'd love to actually get your take on this. I feel like just mostly coaching in general, like in its most basic sense, is you're paying for a relationship. You happen to be the person that in some way, shape or form approximates the goal that I'm after. I appreciate the way you talk about it, and I'm willing to go on this journey, but you're putting it back on me like you're basically you're just going to hold up a mirror for me and that's it. It's really not that much more magical than that. The magic is the fact that they go on the journey with you, which that doesn't always, like, people are afraid of doing that as opposed to like, I got this 18 step program and I'm just like, really? Or I'm just a human being. And maybe we mostly just need to talk this thing through. And I'm not some codependent child, and I can think for myself as an adult. And if you treat somebody like a child as opposed to like, you're an adult human being. That perhaps just feels overwhelmed. And if we can help settle things down a little bit, ask them good questions. Like you, you know the answer that I think that that's such a tragic thing where you see it, especially in the coaching space, like basically telling your client they don't know, they don't know themselves. Well, you're only going to reinforce that behavior and the way you treat them, because if that's what you believe as opposed to they they have all the tools. Their life circumstances and ironically, their own success has got them to a place that they feel so overwhelmed that they're forgetting that the basics worked for them. Their true essence, their true beingness, their true identity isn't shining through. But when they were just only having to work on just being themselves, that's when all that's when the initial success started to happen. They just lost it along the way. I think that's just such a different energy about that, whether it's building a business or losing some weight or having a better marriage, whatever it is, it's the same construct that it just helps. And I appreciate having somebody who's of sound mind and body or whatever it is that's going to hold some space for me. It doesn't have to be much more magical than that, but that is very magical that somebody is willing to be in a meaningful relationship with you and allow you permission to be yourself, as opposed to trying to be your next cult leader, be your next guru, and be like, “I'm going to tell you how to live.”

Dawn Taylor

I'm here, and I'll send you an email about your new wardrobe is with links to my Amazon account, right? 

Caleb Nelson

I haven't seen that exactly done yet, but I'm sure it's out there. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it's out there. But yeah, it's funny you said that. One of the things that my clients and I mean my business card says ass kicker hope giver on it. And I had a guy in here yesterday and he contacted me. Like right around Christmas. I think it was like Christmas Day and he needed some support or something. Can I get a session with you right away? Had no idea who he was. Had never had a conversation with them. He's like someone said the old “Challenge me.” And I said, okay. Because, I mean, I let him have January 1st. I was like, why not? I'll be up here like, it's fine. I can walk downstairs and work. I challenged him because that's what he needed. That's what he asked for, right? He needed someone to devil's advocate everything because he's like, I am so stuck in my own way of thinking. I need someone to challenge me on it. 

Right? Well, last week he randomly reached out again and he's like, ah, my brain is stuck on some things. I need you to challenge me again. And it was so cute because as we were leaving, he made the comment and he's like, I like that you don't just sit there and let me talk and you make me stop and think. And even when I'm like, I don't like what you're saying. You're like, I know. Which is probably why you need to hear it. He's like, but you don't tell me what to do. And I said, well, no. I'm like, no, that's not my job. My job isn't to tell you what to do. I can give you some ideas and I can guide, like, help get you to the point where it's like, “Okay, here's our action plan of what you need to do.” But you still have to do it, and you have to get to the point where you know that that's what you need to do, right? And yeah, I've met enough people now where I'm like, oh, so you do this to heal yourself in your own sessions with your own people? Which I'm sure I'll piss somebody off and I'm going to get a nasty email. Send it to [email protected]. I think that that's a big piece of it. And it's also like this constant desire for external validation that you are doing okay, that you are enough, that you are worthy of this life, that you are worthy of all those things. Right. So you create that, you create those systems.  You create those processes, those procedures within your business to be like, no, you need 

me. And that's, I think that people need to like, if I was to give one word of advice to anyone listening to this, that's like, huh? Am I in a cult, right? I would check. I mean, go to the BITE model, check the list and see how many items you're having to deal with. But also, are you consistently trying to measure up to a standard someone else has set for you? Are these your expectations of yourself or are they someone else's? Right. What is their intention behind it? And also what is your intention behind your actions? If your intention behind your actions is to please them, is to get to a higher level, is to make them like you, to make them love you, to feel like you're part of a community, to feel like you're accepted somewhere. I think you need to take a step back. Right, but also what they're telling you, what they're teaching you, what they're preaching at you, whatever wording you want to use on that. Is it something that's causing harm in your life, in your relationships? 

The amount of people that I know that have ended up divorced, have ended up leaving families, have ended up walking away from relationships because that's what their guru tells them to do. When really, they're not that unhappy. They've been convinced they're that unhappy. 

Caleb Nelson

Yeah, I resonate with everything you just said, and I agree, I've seen that. And the feeling or the thought that came to mind. Like from a difficulty standpoint, if somebody feels this chronic anxiety, I think that's the thing that one, if that's all you're feeling all the time, every time you think about the stuff you got to do, quote unquote, right, I have to do this laundry list of whatever. That is, and sometimes you're creating it for yourself too. It's not everybody else's fault. Sometimes you - why did you create this laundry list of stuff that you think you're supposed to have to do to be successful? Okay, yeah, maybe it's actually you're from your childhood and your mom told you you had to live this way, or your dad or whatever, and you just kept. You kept shuffling that stuff forward into your life. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally.

Caleb Nelson

And so many people just get themselves so damn busy doing everybody else's stuff, they forget to, like, live out their dream. Of course, they don't feel good about themselves. Of course they've forgotten. Because you are, as you said before, with the thing. Like you're volunteering all your time for somebody else's dream. Now, if it genuinely is your dream, and it really does fill your cup and it's exactly what you want. Knock yourself out. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. 

Caleb Nelson

But there's a different sense of ownership in that. And you can acknowledge. I see it, this is the best way for me to do it. And I enjoy,  like, that's different. The same way I would say. You know, not everybody's meant to own a business, but everybody can operate from an entrepreneurial mindset. If you're taking ownership of all the consequences, the trade offs, the benefits, that's great. Some people like being part of an organization and saying, like this job and this role within this space that's best suited for me because I know myself. That's awesome. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's the ownership and the understanding. And it's the same way of saying. You know, some people say everybody needs a coach and maybe but, like, some people might say, like as opposed to saying, “I need a coach.” Just saying “I know that I operate best when I have somebody who holds space for me. I just know that about myself and I get through problems faster and that's worth it to me.” It's a different way of approaching, I suppose. “I need somebody to, like, help me through, like I can't.” And they're just, like, crippled with their own stuff. You're probably going to go seeking a very short term solution, and you're going to get your. Don't be surprised when the person that shows up at your door sells you some snake oil and like, start the process all over again. There's just a difference in that, I think. I actually be very curious about your take on this. I think everybody eventually grows through that cycle. Everybody's got their own level of pain, of feeling like they're subservient to everything else. I think there's a new fear, though, when you start to really want to sit with “Who am I?” question of who do I really trust now? Who do I really let into my life? I'm so used to being burned by all these false gods. I find value in community. I find value in connection. I don't know where to start. I just don't trust that. I guess kind of what I'm bringing it up is going. I think especially some of the things you said about this, help somebody better understand how do you make a better choice when you are going out and seeking support or guidance or communal connection or any of those things?  Because, like, I feel like that's when you're you're. Your trust in the greater good ultimately comes to its lowest low. 

Dawn Taylor

100%, but that's where. But that's where. When it's all external, you're setting everybody else up around you for failure and yourself up for disappointment. It makes sense, right? When everything out there is external, it's no different than having expectations of somebody. And then they fail them and you're like, what? And you're so angry and it's like, no, you put an expectation on someone that they didn't agree to meet. And you set them up for failure the minute you put that on them. And I think that's where it comes back to, so I laugh because, like I met you. In the funniest way ever. Our mutual friend Denise, who's maybe listening to this. Hey, Denise. I went to a different culty networking group that I refuse to go to because they're so culty and they drive me insane. And if you're not part of it, you're dead to them. Like, they're so rigid that way. And everyone will tell you like it's a one year buy in, and then people will start referring to you and want to get to know you. And I'm like, oh good grief, what is this? I'd been invited by someone who wanted to talk, and he had a client in the room that wanted me to come be part of it and give a feel on a few people. I was like, whatever. Fine. Three hours in. Then I was like, I want to stab myself in the face with a fork. Like, I can't do this. Like I can't listen to one more sales pitch. I can't listen to one more shaming from the stage like I actually can't. Like I'm crawling into my skin. So I look to my friend I was with and I was like, I know she's like what? I was like, I can't like, this is actually killing me. Like, no, I can or I'm going to get myself into trouble and say something I shouldn't to someone. I know this about myself. So, I got up and I was, like, walking out right after lunch and this thing was going to, like, 5:00. And I'm walking out and someone chases me down to introduce me to someone. And it was Denise. And we start. We're like, oh, hey, how are you? Whatever. And I was like, I gotta get out of here. I apologize right now because nothing I say is going to be appropriate, but like, I gotta fucking get out of here, like, right now. And she starts laughing and she's like, oh my word, thank you, me too. And I was 

like, that's a kindred spirit right there, right? I think it's about finding people again, going back to the values, right. Finding people that think outside the box, finding people that don't commit hardcore to something, finding people that like we joke with in my company that we call it a no toes policy. Where it's like nobody is stepping on anybody else's toes. So if someone needs to step in and take something over or they can do a better job, amazing. No toes. So no one's ever offended. Nobody's ever hurt. No one's ever getting mad at anyone over that. And I think we need to do that in friendships and in business. Right? It's like, hey, if I want to go to 45 networking groups, nobody's going to be like, oh, you go to another one other than this one, right? If I want to have more friends, nobody's jealous because the people you connect with go “ Hey! I like that you get yourself and you know yourself and you're confident in who you are, what you are, what you provide.” You know. And that is where there's such beauty in that. And I think that's where you really have to start. And so for myself, my inner circle might be really small, but there are no toes. Nobody ever is jealous because I hang out with one person more than somebody else, or I didn't call them for too long or whatever. Like they're, there's no toes.  It's not an issue and I never have to worry about it. But because of that, I know I'm not constantly trying to be someone for someone. And that's when you find yourself having to chameleon, find yourself having to change who you are, what you wear, how you show up, what you eat just to fit in. Holy red flag.

Caleb Nelson 

I like that thing you just brought up about the networking thing. I remember that it's common, a lot of networking groups where you're like, you're fitting like this, you know, specific category in our group. Like, what if they're like and then you're supposed to refer to that person. I'm using this as a general concept, obviously, but I always found that to be, like, did anybody go and check if they're really good at what they do or didn't? Did we really check on their core values? 

Dawn Taylor

Not at all. 

Caleb Nelson

Are they really checking in on my stuff? Like, this is a two way street and I see it the same way as. It's almost like being in the States. Like, and I went onto this with Denise on my podcast. Like insurance. Entering the treatment room with a doctor and a and a and a patient. Like when you let, you're letting some third party dictate what's going on between them, like a relationship is an interest between those two people. Like, let them sort it out. Sometimes you need somebody to, like, mediate, but not to, like, solve the problem. That's different. 

Dawn Taylor

Kindergarten for networking. 

Caleb Nelson

You can't. And again it's valuable because you just, in the beginning you don't know what you don't know. And you need to do the rest and you need to do stuff. And that's why I think, all these things have value. Every system has value because it gives you some order and some structure and some focus. Until it no longer fits that. And I think that's what most people lose, like, I still follow many of the general principles during my CrossFit days. Some general things, certain foods I learned. 

Dawn Taylor 

Not all consuming. I think that's where it becomes an issue. When it's all consuming, when it's like, no, no, no, I'm going to take 14 of your courses and I'm going to spend eight hours a day doing this and it's going to harm my relationships. Oh, and I'm going to go to every single retreat, and I'm going to read all your books, and I'm going to listen to your podcast, and I'm going to do all these things, and I'm going to wear your clothes, and I'm going to have the same haircut as you. And it becomes us trying to become the person, not learn from the person. 

Caleb Nelson

It's such a different approach that like what we're talking about the other way is that saying, here's some tools. Use this. Do with it what you want. Like this is what I've learned. There's a casualness by that. And I think. For anybody listening like that. If you're ever hearing stuff and the person's like, listen, I'm good either way. If it makes you happy, cool. If it doesn't work for you. Also cool. That's usually a great sign. Like, okay, maybe you can like maybe the next step is appropriate and that person is not. You know, I joke a lot about stuff with sales and things like that. It's like, I'm not going to propose to you on the first date. Go figure. Range marriage kind of background holds some water there for me. Like we're not we're not going all in right off the ribs. Like you said before like “Oh, my god. I'm going to give you my first born and like my life savings.” Because that's buy in for this. And that works for some people. But there's also the survivorship bias, like look at this one person who went from rags to riches doing this path, not talking about the 90% that crashed and burned and their success rate was not great. And you see that in online coaching space a lot all the time. But it's again, not that the system is wrong mathematically. It was like, but you didn't think about who exactly is the person you're going on the journey with. Do they really align with everything you say? And are you really learning how to hold space? And much like you said before, is this a person who's doing this to solve their own problem? Or they hold space for you while you're figuring it out for yourself. That intention is incredibly powerful, and it's very subtle to shift. But if you're not aware of it, 3 to 6, 12 months, maybe a few years down the line, it's going to be, there's going to be a sharp ending to that and it's going to be pretty uncomfortable. So, I was loving everything you were saying about that, because I think it's so important for people to have that type of awareness around the language that surrounds it.  

Dawn Taylor

I have people that, and, this is a recommendation I always make to people when I do a consultation with someone and I'm like, look, I might not be the right fit. I won't let people sign up right away. I'm like, no, no, no, you need to sleep on this. You need to think about this. You need to make sure you can afford it. And they're like, really? And I'm like, 

yes, yes, you need to take a minute. I will make you take a minute. But. I will talk to people and I'm like, “Hey, if you are interviewing other coaches, if you are interviewing other people to help with some of these things, can you do me a favor?” And they're like, “What?” “Ask them the hardest thing that they've ever overcome. What is the greatest trauma that they've overcome and how did they do it?” And they're like, “What do you mean?” And I said, “If they can answer that question and you're not okay with the answer, probably not the right fit.” 

Because most people are coming to me for trauma work, right? And even in the business consulting side of my business, where I'll help business owners build things out, I'm like. 

Just ask to see someone's financial statements. Ask to see some of their systems, processes and procedures. They're like, really? And I'm like, well, yeah, because if they haven't been there, how are they going to guide you there? The business coach whose business is failing?

I get a lot of flack. I get a lot of flack for this because I'll say this to people. I've had people try to sell and I'm like, cool, how much are you making a year? They're like, what do you mean? I'm like, if you haven't leveled up from where I am, why am I hiring you to get me there? Because you obviously don't know how to do it. Sorry. I'm hiring you to help me with staff when you've never actually had a staff member. I don't care what you read in a book. I don't care what you did in a course, I need to know that you've actually lived it and you've walked your walk. 

Caleb Nelson

There's a different level of “I know what it feels like.” It's not what I know. Like you said before, you can read it in a book or you can have a piece of paper on the wall if you don't know what it feels like. There's a whole different, when you just brought up staff. That's a burden that people don't think about. If you don't know what it feels like, rent's coming due and you got people and mouths to feed. And it's not just them. They got kids or they got family or whatever. And you're like, oh, how do I make these decisions? And you're like, you never sat with that, right? 

Dawn Taylor

The added stress. I was like, don't you tell me how to manage my team when you haven't done the Thursday night shit. I have payroll in the morning and I don't know how I'm going to pay them. Up until you see. But when you've had like I've had staff, I've had a huge payroll, I've done those things right. So I'm like, I know that feeling. I know the responsibility of the weight of that on your shoulders. And how that can cause you struggles in your own business, right? Like. 

So yeah, really make sure that you know what you're getting when you hire someone or when you join something, or you're part of a community or whatever it is, pay attention to that. What is your intention with being there and what is their intention with setting it up?

Caleb Nelson

You know what I really liked about what you said to that? I think it really sticks out for me is that you're not in a rush to take them on. And I think that is where, you know, many people think sale is a four letter word. But that's only if you don't go about it ethically. If you're in a rush and you're desperate to take somebody on why you're desperate, like, are you not even competent? What you got to do? You got to sell them into the, like, all this stuff. If you're not willing to let them take a week. Not to mention, you know, let's think of the thing beyond that, their buyer's remorse is a real thing. If they're chill and they come in not like when they make a decision, they get really high internally. And then the next day, if there's a big drop off, that's a problem. If they come in and they lay down the money and it and they feel calm and cool the entire time, there's not a big buyer's remorse. They feel confident that like there's a there's a I feel hopeful. I'm not in a rush. I don't like it's and not only that.I feel like it. It sets the tone for how the entire relationship is going to be. My emotions are not going to be throttle all the time. When I go to this person, I actually calm down and I feel calm the next day. Well, if that's how you want to feel in your life, which go figure. I would recommend to a lot of people because you make better decisions. It's probably how you want to do it. I wanted to make sure we highlighted what I heard there because I thought that that was. I think that that was really important for people to hear that if somebody is trying to sell you the moon and then, you know, you should take out this credit card right now and they can sign over your house and all this stuff to pay for this program, like this one time. You know what? 

Dawn Taylor

There's only eight spots. There's only one left. Guys, this is just sleazy sales. And we 

could talk about this all day. And you and I both know that. If people want to know more about Caleb, if people want to know more about any of this stuff, check out our show notes. Please follow him. And also, I'll be posting when my episode with him comes out where we deep dive into a whole different topic and really, really oh man, it's a good one. I'm just going to put that out there. We had an incredible conversation, including the fact that I hate the words “hold space for somebody” and what the meaning is behind that. 

Caleb Nelson

And I use it a couple times a day 

Dawn Taylor

If you can see his face right now. Right. But we dive into stuff, we dive into stuff, and our trauma really shows up in our lives. So thank you. Caleb, thank you so much for the time today for joining me today. I hope it's something that you heard really hits home. Um, if you're in a cult, please leave. Please, please leave. Contact either of us. We will help guide you out of it and how to fix the chaos after, but also join us in two weeks for another amazing topic, check out the show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca. For more information and for all the contact information on how to find Caleb and his culty eyes, and subscribe now on Apple, Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you again, Caleb, for being here. 

Caleb Nelson

Thank you.