Elizabeth “Liza” Goitein is the senior director of the Brennan Center’s Liberty and National Security Program, and she is an expert on the use of presidential emergency powers. Long before recent concerns arose about whether Trump might use an emergency for some authoritarian purpose, Goitein had been warning that the laws governing presidential powers during a declared emergency needed to be revised.

Under the National Emergencies Act, a president can legally invoke approximately 150 powers after declaring an emergency. Theoretically, an unchecked president could use the military domestically, seize the bank accounts of American citizens, and take control of the internet.

Presidents have been pushing the envelope on emergency powers for years. Frustrated with congressional deadlock, Joe Biden used a dubious emergency declaration to suspend some student debt. In his first term, Trump tried to secure funding for his border wall through an emergency declaration.

However, in his second term, Trump has demonstrated a willingness to declare emergencies far beyond that of any recent president. In their 12 years in office, Presidents Barack Obama and Joe Biden declared a total of 21 emergencies. Trump has declared 19 emergencies in under four years and four months as president. He has made eight emergency declarations this year alone.

In our conversation, Goitein explains the history of emergency powers, reviews how presidents have used and abused them in the past, details the frightening array of powers on the books, offers her thoughts on some nightmare scenarios under Trump, and explains whether Congress or the courts could stop him.

If you watched or listened to our recent conversation with Damon Linker about MAGA’s obsession with theorists who worship an all-powerful executive willing to use emergencies to enact sweeping change, you will want to hear Goitein explain exactly how it could be done.

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