Basecamp founder, New York Times best-selling author, and web software pioneer Jason Fried is Jeffrey Zeldman’s guest. The two discuss Jason’s latest book (co-authored with David Heinemeier Hannson), It Doesn’t Have to be Crazy at Work, which The Economist called “by far the best thing on management published this year.” Also: the secrets of Basecamp, the magic of sleep, the sameness of agencies’ portfolio sites, why Basecamp doesn’t user test, and more.

Note: We apologize for Jeffrey's audio quality in this episode, but Jason Fried says so many smart things we decided we had to share this conversation anyway. It's worth it!