Step into a pastor's journey from California to Detroit and discover how the shifting landscape of Black church leadership has evolved since 1985. This riveting conversation pulls back the curtain on the realities of denominational politics, revealing the sometimes painful gap between preached values and organizational practices.

When our guest arrived in Detroit during Coleman Young's mayorship, he encountered a church community transitioning from family-controlled congregations to broader leadership models. The cultural shock of moving from the emotionally expressive Southern worship style to the more intellectually-focused Northern approach forced growth and adaptation that continues to this day, as he navigates generational changes and embraces new expressions of ministry.

With remarkable candor, he shares his recent experience running for the National Baptist Convention presidency, expressing disappointment in a process he describes as manipulated and constitutionally questionable. This leads to a thoughtful exploration of how the Convention has evolved since Joseph Harrison Jackson's controversial 27-year leadership, suggesting that somewhere along the way, the powerful Black nationalist focus that once gave the organization a seat at the United Nations table was diluted.

Most fascinating is the discussion of "hooping" – that distinctive, musical sermonic style in African-American preaching tradition. "It's that indescribable something," he explains, connecting this art form to African heritage and noting how it serves as "the icing on the cake" of a well-delivered sermon. The conversation concludes with reflections on the most impactful Black preachers throughout American history, from Richard Allen to Martin Luther King Jr.

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