Karl Vaters talks with Luke Simmons, the pastor of Ironwood Church in Mesa, AZ. Recently, Luke and his church elders decided to pursue a very ambitious goal with the aim of helping their large, growing congregation feel smaller and more connected.

As a big-church pastor, Luke is not a typical Church Lobby guest, but he and Karl follow each other on X (formerly Twitter) and when Luke posted about this plan it inspired a lot of questions and curiosity. The plan is for the members of their elder team to have one-on-one meetings with 1,000 church members over coffee or a meal this coming year.

If those numbers make you feel like this isn’t for you, give it a chance. Luke has a heart for people, and he’s interested in how to set numerical goals that help us reach non-numerical objectives of discipleship, fellowship, and service.

Links:

• Luke’s original X post about elder meeting goals
• Luke’s original X post about doing one-on-one meetings
• Faithful and Fruitful
• Tim Keller on Leadership and Church Size Dynamics
• Darrell Stetler’s Sermon Illustrator
• Follow Luke on X
• Ironwood Church

Bonus video

How To Conduct An Annual Leadership Meeting, with Luke Simmons

Karl Vaters talks with Luke Simmons about some of the steps he follows to gain as much as possible from an annual leadership meeting with his church elders. Points include:

• Get it on the calendar as soon as possible
• Make it an overnighter
• Budget for it
• Slow down in a relaxed environment
• Set the tone with idea prompts in writing
• Write a summary afterward
• And more

Links:

• How to Grow Your Small Business: A 6-Step Plan to Help Your Business Take Off (Donald Miller)
• Luke’s original X post about elder meeting goals
• Luke’s original X post about doing one-on-one meetings
• https://faithfulandfruitful.com/elders-meeting/

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Over the last few months, several of our podcasts have been about bivo/covocationality, side hustles for pastors, and so on. And more are on the way.

Why? Because the future of the church is bivocational. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks to Andrew Hamilton about the content from his book, The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World, including the theological foundation for bivocational ministry, how work isn’t a sinful result of the fall, but an element of God’s creative design for us, and the value of covocational ministry for the pastor, the church, and the community.

The second half of the conversation includes several very practical steps for any pastor who’s considering bivocationality, including:

• Having upfront conversations with your church leaders
• Deciding which tasks are essential for you to do
• Knowing which tasks others can be trained for and trusted with
• The non-optional tasks of leadership and communication
• Why Andrew tries to function at 70 percent of his ministry capacity

And more

Links:

• Backyard Missionary
• The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World
• The Patient Ferment of the Early Church: The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire

Bonus video

Eight Options for Finding Bivocational Work, with Andrew Hamilton

Are you considering becoming a bivocational pastor? Karl Vaters talks to Andrew Hamilton about some practical work options that mesh well with a pastoral schedule and skillset, from the content from his book, The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World, including:

1. Project/Contract Work
2. Laboring
3. Start a Small Business
4. The Church Starts a Business
5. Retrain/Upskill/Study
6. Low Demand Work
7. Volunteer
8. Consulting

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*ATTENTION NEEDED* Help us get to Malaysia by going to KarlVaters.com/support

Anything you can give will be appreciated.

Karl Vaters interviews Bryan Sims about creating an environment for discipleship to thrive, from his book, Creating Space: Cultivating Environments for Disciples of Jesus to Thrive and Multiply (co-written with Craig Robertson).

In the first half of the book, and of our conversation, we talk about the importance of creating PSDs (Passionate Spiritual Disciples) and how the church needs to get better at creating space for it to happen among our church members.

Then in the second half, we get practical, talking about four tools to help this happen in your church. Plus, Bryan addresses the five characteristics of healthy disciple-making  environments, and more.

Links:

• Creating Space: Cultivating Environments for Disciples of Jesus to Thrive and Multiply
• Spiritual Leadership, Inc.
• Bryandsims.com

Bonus video

The 4 Stages of Disciple-making Environments, with Bryan Sims

Karl Vaters interviews Bryan Sims about the 4 different types of environments that are needed for varying stages of spiritual growth, from his book, Creating Space: Cultivating Environments for Disciples of Jesus to Thrive and Multiply (co-written with Craig Robertson).

• Stage 1: Engage and Befriend
• Stage 2: Relate and Connect
• Stage 3: Equip and Grow
• Stage 4: Become and Send

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Karl Vaters interviews Derek Maxson about some simple ways to make sure your church website is reaching the three kinds of people who are most likely to use it.

Derek runs Spiffy.Church, an online ministry that specializes in helping smaller churches get the most from their websites, using limited time and resources.

Derek and Karl talk about how to optimize your church website by making it simple and affordable, and how to use it to help three types of people.

• Insiders (your church members and regulars)
• Shoppers (those looking for a new church home)
• Seekers (those who are curious about the faith or who are needing help in a time of crisis)

Links:

• Spiffy.Church

Bonus video

Three Simple Changes You Can Make To Your Church Website, with Derek Maxson

Church websites shouldn’t be as complicated as we make them. In this bonus chat, Karl Vaters talks with Derek Maxson about a few quick changes you can make to your church website that will immediately make it better for everyone.

Links:

• Spiffy.Church

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Karl Vaters interviews Mike Edmondson about the hot-button topics of racial segregation in the American church, why affinity spaces matter, and how the gospel defeats racism – even the racism that has sometimes been promoted within the institutional church.

Mika speaks with experience, wisdom, directness, and grace, generating more light than heat.

Some of what Mika and Karl talk about includes:

• What is segregation?
• What is “Hereditary Heathenism?”
• Why did historically black churches begin?
• What are “Affinity Spaces” and why do they matter?
• How can we think and act more biblically about issues of race?

And more.

Links:

• Text of Mika’s thread from X
• Link to Mika’s original X thread
• NoteBird App

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Rachel Bren is a survivor of sexually related trauma, and now she serves with SRTServices.org, which helps people recover from their trauma, and can help you and your church. She’s also the co-host of the Grace & Grenades podcast.

Karl Vaters interviews Rachel about what sexual related trauma is, how the church can help those dealing with it, some mistakes to avoid, and more.

Links:

• SRTServices.org
• Grace & Grenades
• Our church introduction video
• Brene Brown video on sympathy vs. empathy
• The Allender Center Podcast
• The Place We Find Ourselves Podcast
• Grace & Grenades Podcast
• You can reach Rachel by email at [email protected] and the website  www.srtservices.org

Bonus video

How Your Church Can Help People Recover from Sexually Related Trauma, with Rachel Bren

Karl Vaters talks with Rachel Bren about how SRTServices.org can come alongside your church to give you the tools to help people who are dealing with sexually related trauma.

Links:

• SRTServices.org
• Grace & Grenades

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Karl Vaters interviews Sam Peters about the microchurch model, and more specifically, what are the minimum aspects that need to be in place for a church to be a church?

If you’re serving a small church that’s considering if you have a viable path forward, the microchurch model is worth considering, and Sam offers some help for thinking about it in fresh, new ways.

Sam Peters is a church consultant, and the author of several books, including Small Church, Big Opportunity; BIG Faith: Six Key Factors that Grow Your Faith in God, & Rebuilding Stronger: Navigating the Post-Pandemic Landscape of Worship.

Links:

• SmallChurchCoaching.com
• LinkTree
• You can follow Sam on Facebook and X

Bonus video

The Limitations of the Institutional Church in Reaching the Community

Karl Vaters interviews Sam Peters about some of the limitations that are now coming to light about the institutional church model (building, salary, etc.) that we’ve both spent our lives in. The challenges we talk about include:

1.  Physical and Financial Constraints: Many churches invest most of their resources into maintaining buildings and programs rather than directly engaging the lost. This is especially difficult for smaller congregations.

2.  Passive Churchgoers Instead of Active Disciple-Makers: Institutional churches can unintentionally foster a consumer mindset, where members attend services but are not equipped to lead or disciple others.

3.  Limited Reach Beyond Church Walls: Most churches expect people to come to them rather than embedding the Gospel in everyday life and relationships.

4.  Slow Adaptation to Cultural Shifts: In an age of rapid change, large churches with complex structures often struggle to pivot quickly to meet new challenges and opportunities.

5. Overemphasis on Sunday Gatherings: The primary focus in many churches is the Sunday experience, but disciple-making happens most effectively in smaller, relational environments.

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Karl Vaters interviews Desmond Barrett about how small churches can do a better job at reaching, welcoming, and keeping guests.

Desmond is the author of Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance, which is a short, but very practical book that pastors will find great benefit in.

Karl and Desmond talk about:

• How to reimagine the church facility from the parking lot to the pew
• Why sharing updates about facility improvements is attractive to guests
• Why so many pastors and church leaders resist doing what needs to be done
• Why “we just need to attract young families” is never the answer
• The good news that new Christians are not looking for programs, they’re wanting to live on mission

Links:

• Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance
• Revitalizing the Declining Church with Dr. Desmond Barrett (podcast)
• Desmond's Amazon Author Page
• Libby App

Bonus video

5 Options When a Church Property is Too Big for the Congregation, with Desmond Barrett

Karl Vaters talks with Desmond Barrett, the author of Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance, about a subject that is a challenge for a growing number of congregations. What can you do when a church facility that was built to hold hundreds of people has just a handful or worshipers left?

The five options they discuss are:

1. Do Nothing
2. Share the Property
3. Rent the Property
4. Sell the Property
5. Recreate the Property

Links: Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance

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Karl Vaters interviews Brad Hill about some of the latest findings concerning the church and technology.

Brad is the Chief Solutions Officer at Gloo, an organization that came out of nowhere a few years ago, and now seems to be everywhere.

After clarifying Karl’s curiosity about who/what Gloo actually is, they talk about some of the important findings from a recent study Gloo conducted with Barna.

If you’re not an early adopter of technology, this can help you navigate the fast-changing landscape without getting bogged down in details.

The five findings Karl and Brad discuss are:

1. Christians see huge potential for churches to use digital tools effectively.
2. Churchgoers want pastors to address AI use thoughtfully and wisely.
3. Gen Z may live online, but they still crave in-person relationships over digital connections.
4. Practicing Gen Z Christians feel uncertain about whether AI is a faithful tool.
5. Pastors are intentional about using tech but still prioritize relationships and collaboration as the foundation of ministry.

Links:

• Gloo
• State of the Church research
• Digital Tools article
• Barna

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Eric Hoke is known as the “I Help Pastors Get Jobs” Guy.

Karl Vaters talks with Eric about how to build long-term sustainable ministry, reduce financial stress, and create value in the marketplace by becoming an intentionally covocational pastor.

Eric’s new book, Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress, addresses many of the issues involved in making the shift toward covocational ministry.

This conversation covers the subjects of:

• The mindset shift that most pastors must take to start down this road
• The value pastors bring to the marketplace
• Finding your marketable skills through using the Heart- Head-Hands-Feet method
• How to get through the clutter of thousands of job applicants
• How to present yourself and your skills
• And so much more

Links from this episode:

• Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress
• IHelpPastorsGetJobs.com
• Daily Examen App: "Reimagining the Examen" for iphone and android

How to Build a LinkedIn Profile that Will Get Job Leads, with Eric Hoke

LinkedIn remains a primary online site for those seeking employment, and it’s especially helpful for pastors seeking covocational employment.

In this very practical conversation, Eric Hoke talks with Karl Vaters about some common mistakes to avoid and opportunities to take advantage of that will get you noticed—and get the side hustle job that suits your skills and needs.

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