The Church Lobby

Karl Vaters talks with Charles Cotherman about why small towns and rural areas deserve a greater amount of our attention than they usually receive. Their conversation centers around Charlie’s new book, Strip Mine Jesus: Hope for the Rural Church, Small Towns, and Overlooked Places.

Even if you live in a heavily populated area you can gain a lot from Charlie’s book and this conversation, including:

• What a strip mine is, and how it’s such a helpful way to understand the blessings and challenges of rural areas
• Some of the misperceptions we have about rural areas and ministry in them
• How small towns force us to slow down and pay attention
• How Jesus' ministry was more focused on small towns than big cities
• How our idolization of celebrity and efficiency has pulled us away from smaller, slower, deeper ministry

And more.

Charlie is executive director of the Center for Rural Ministry and assistant professor of biblical and theological studies at Grove City College. He is lead pastor of Oil City Vineyard Church. He also serves as a member of the Brookings-AEI Commission on US Rural Prosperity.

Links:

• Strip Mine Jesus: Hope for the Rural Church, Small Towns, and Overlooked Places.
• Center for Rural Ministry

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“If we are to see a recovery of trust and integrity, it will demand a radical reorientation in how we form leaders, how we imagine success, and how we live our lives before God and one another.”

That’s a quote from Chuck DeGroat’s new book, Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age.

Karl Vaters talks with Chuck about how to identify some better ways to approach the concepts of success and character development. This is essential, but slow work, especially in an age that often pushes back against it.

Chuck is professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary. He has served as a pastor, has founded two church-based counseling centers, and is the author of several books, including the one he and Karl talk about in this episode.

Links:

• Chuck’s X post about pastoral search requirements
• ChuckDeGroat.net
• Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age
• When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse
• The Worst Scandal I’ve Seen in 30 Years (from Chuck’s Substack)

Four Conditions for a Sacred Ripening, with Chuck DeGroat

Chuck DeGroat defines “ripening” as the slow, consistent work of Christian maturation. There are four key biblical conditions that must be met for this to be achieved, and in this short bonus material, Church walks us through them:

• Safety
• Eldering
• Community
• A Sacred Story

This is all from Chuck’s recent book, Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age.

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Karl Vaters and Dale Sellers have good news and bad news for you. The good news is that pastors are staying in their churches longer than ever before. The bad news is that pastors are aging and there aren’t as many young pastors coming in. This makes pastoral and church renewal more important than ever before.

Dale Sellers is the Executive Director of The Renewed Pastor, which is the new name and mission for what was the 95 Network. He and Karl talk about the moments of ongoing personal and ministry renewal that need to happen regularly, and about those larger transitional renewals that seem to come up about every seven years or so. Dale will also describe the one-year Renewed Pastor Pathway that utilizes the life experiences of pastoral coaches who have been through tough times themselves, and how you can utilize their expertise for the blessing and benefit of you, your family, and your ministry.

Links:

• Why 95Network is Becoming The Renewed Pastor
• The Renewed Pastor

Where to find Dale on social media:

• Instagram: @DaleSellersSays
• X: @DaleSellersSays
• LinkedIn: Dale Sellers
• Facebook: Dale Sellers

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What if you could use the hard work for the sermon you’ve already done, then leverage it for an even greater online impact? Well, you can. And it doesn’t take technical wizardry to pull it off.

Karl Vaters interviews Ed Stetzer and Corey Alderin about how tech has become so user-friendly that it can be used in ways that used to be available only to large churches.

Ed has been a leading voice for the evangelical church for many years, and he’s an avid supporter of small churches. Corey is the CEO and founder of Sermon Shots.

As any conversation with Ed Stetzer tends to do, this conversation leads down a few fascinating rabbit trails, as well, including:

• How to use tech so that it doesn’t interfere with the in-person worship experience
• The importance of using online video to make a first-time visitor feel more welcome
• How online algorithms have changed the way people see your content

And more.

Links:

• Sermon Shots
• Karl Vaters and Ed Stetzer talk in the van

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Is online church, real church? I used to say online church is real church, it’s just not enough church. But I’ve changed my mind.

Live streaming came into our lives in a big way in 2020, and now after living with it for six years, we can look at it with a little more wisdom and objectivity.

In this solo podcast I talk about how and why I changed his mind about church live streams, plus some better ways to approach it, including:

• Why online church is not church, it’s content
• How we may be sending a bad message about church with our online experience
• How the presence of a live-stream camera affects the pastor and the people in the room
• How it changes the way we structure our services
• How to give everyone a better online experience without live streaming

And more.

• Maybe You Shouldn’t Live-Stream Your Church Service, with Tim Fox (Ep 62)
• We’re All Televangelists Now (11 Ways To Avoid The Pitfalls Of Live Stream)
• Karl Vaters on the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
• Contact Page for Karl Vaters

Karl Vaters interviews pastor Ryan Lokkesmoe about a problem many pastors are facing in their churches, even if they haven’t been able to identify it yet. Many of our church members are accidental pagans.

Karl and Ryan talk about how so many ancient pagan practices have made their way into many of our lives today—without us knowing it, turning many good Christians into accidental pagans. This affects their lives, how they act in church, what they expect of it, and most importantly, how they view God and their relationship with him.

Ryan is the lead pastor of Community Church at Lake Wylie, a congregation in the Charlotte area, and is the author of several books, including his newest, Accidental Pagans: Untangling the Roots of Our Fears about God — and Discovering Who He Really Is.

• Accidental Pagans: Untangling the Roots of Our Fears about God — and Discovering Who He Really Is
• RyanLokkesmoe.com
• Team Leadership: Lessons from the Apostle Paul, with Ryan Lokkesmoe (The Church Lobby, Ep 046)
• NETBible.org

Karl Vaters talks with Nathan Meador and Heath R. Curtis about how to take a more Bible-based and holistic approach to stewardship in the church. It’s not a plea for finances, it’s a basis for a healthy church, life, and ministry.

Based on Nathan and Heath’s book, Stewardship: For the Care of Souls, this conversation focuses on tending well to everything God has entrusted to our care. Especially as pastors, this includes the congregation we’ve been entrusted to serve, and all the responsibilities, challenges and joys that go with this calling.

Their conversation includes several penetrating insights, including:

• How stewardship and the care of souls are related to each other
• How repentance plays a key role in stewardship
• How a pragmatic theology of stewardship is not stewardship at all
• How to change the culture so that stewardship focuses on more than the survival of the institution

Links:

Stewardship: For the Care of Souls

How to Preach on Stewardship, with Heath R. Curtis and Nathan Meador

In this subscribers-only bonus material, Karl Vaters talks with the co-authors of the book, Stewardship: For the Care of Souls about their three main approaches to preaching/teaching about stewardship in a fast-changing culture, where the annual tithing sermon just isn’t cutting it anymore.

Together, they discuss the approaches of:

• The lectionary
• The sermon series
• Lectio continua

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How do you start a YouTube channel at the age of 81, and reach 25K subscribers in less than 6 months? That’s what pastor Mike Bayer did. Now he’s at over 44K subscribers, and it’s providing him with a second source of income in his later years of ministry.

Karl Vaters talks with Mike about how he made YouTube work for him, plus:

• The importance of intentional ministry to senior adults
• How to use your church’s YouTube channel for better engagement
• Ideas for making an income outside the walls of the church
• Ministry adjustments for the fourth quarter of life

And more.

• Old Me Living Better: YouTube Channel
• Old Me Living: Skool channel
• Mike’s Facebook Page
• SnugSafe.com
• The Aging Pastorate: Sam Rainer on the Looming Pastoral Retirement Crunch (Ep 128)

There is no bonus content for this episode.

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Karl Vaters interviews Todd Wilson about some of the lessons that we need to learn when we look back at the Church Growth Movement.

Todd is the co-founder and founding CEO of Exponential, so he critiques the Church Growth Movement as one of its leaders. This gives him a unique perspective we need to hear.

Karl and Todd talk about the content of Todd’s new book, How Did We Get Here? Examining 70 Years of the Church Growth Movement.

They cover topics such as:

• How the modern church has adopted a Consumer-Driven Operating System
• How Donald McGavran’s Church Growth methods and language were co-opted
• Where the “church as business” model came from
• What must come next
• And more.

• How Did We Get Here? Examining 70 Years of the Church Growth Movement (Free e-book w registration)
• How Did We Get Here? Examining 70 Years of the Church Growth Movement (On Amazon)
• Multipliers: Leading Beyond Addition (Free e-book)
• Email Todd at [email protected]
• Techsoup.org
• The Unexpected Origins of the Church Growth Movement, with Dr. Gary McIntosh (The Church Lobby, Ep 027)
• De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next (by Karl Vaters)

12 Dilemmas Within the Church’s Prevailing Operating System, with Todd Wilson

In Todd Wilson’s book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, he refers to the current church systems as functioning under a faulty operating system, and he describes 12 dilemmas within that system.

In this subscriber-only content, Karl Vaters talks with Todd about several of these dilemmas.

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“What's wrong with being just a normal church?” That’s the question at the center of Thomas Austin’s song, Normal Church.

In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Thomas Austin about the content of his song, including where the idea for it came from, some of the criticism he’s received for it, and what message he’s trying to convey through it.

Some of what comes through in this conversation includes:

• Thomas’ love for the church
• His (and Karl’s) desire to see normal churches not try to be something they’re not
• The problems that happen when normal churches try to copy the megachurch model
• The desire for authenticity among younger generations

And more.

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