The Communicate Influence Podcast

Sheelagh Caygill and Mariya Delano, CEO of Kalyna Marketing, explore the evolving role of generative artificial intelligence (AI) in marketing and creativity.

Mariya discusses how she integrates AI into workflows. Kalyna Marketing uses AI for streamlining admin tasks, automating repetitive processes, and enhancing efficiency in areas such as data analysis, scheduling, and customer segmentation.

But Mariya warns that marketers and content creators who rely too heavily on AI for content creation are taking huge risks with their own or a client's business.

Mariya uses the Greek framework of the types of persuasionin her analysis of the current state of gen AI: logos and pathos. Logos was logic, facts, and information while pathos was emotion and feeling.

Mariya sees so many marketers missing the value of the pathos, which makes content worthwhile. Gen AI can make content look and feel good, but nobody remembers it. It feels empty.

AI content, she says, is missing the heart, the pathos, and the feeling.

AI is never going to get the best results or deliver the things that truly make an impact. You can't have brand recognition, brand authority, or long-term brand trust with AI, because it's regurgitating information from everybody else,  whether it be a Nabokov novel in the 50s or Joe Smith writing a blog post three months ago in your competitor's blog.

Mariya explains that gen AI lacks cohesive emotion driving the creative process. With a human heart is behind creation, the creative process is tied together through the emotion of the writer, the artist, or the editor.

Resources & links from Mariya:

From Alex Birkett on the business and SEO impacts of AI use and what will matter in content going forward.

By Julie Angwin, breaking down hype around AI and common myths promoted by AI vendors.

MIT Tech Review article by Scott J Mulligan about how AI output quality reduces when it's trained on poor quality materials, and that as time goes on and more of the internet becomes AI generated, the quality of AI tools will likely go down .

Research from Distributed AI Research Institute (DAIR). DAIR looks at AI a lot more critically and holistically in terms of harms to marginalized populations, impact on human lives, and imagining more ethical, alternative frameworks for AI. 

ThreatLabs AI Security report with good stats about the amount of cybersecurity issues from common AI tools, and the second section detailing how AI use can be security threats is extremely interesting for any marketer.

Mariya sees this trend playing out over and over - namely the ways that authenticity on the internet (specifically on YouTube) got commodified and emulated to the point of losing the initial spark and connection with creators that made this kind of content effective to begin with. This video is an older essay on the subject.

"No One Makes Good Video Essays Anymore" - a video about commodification of educational content, the point of an essay, and how artistic sensibilities and taste can get harmed while chasing algorithms.

A masterful short YouTube video on a conservative Twitter cartoon and DOGE, but it actually makes one of the most profound points about AI - as the video goes on, the creator strips more and more parts of it that are "inefficient", stripping it down to the laziest, simplest to produce version by the end. Mariya got chills seeing how much the quality dropped and how much the magic disappeared. "When we automate things because they don't seem essential, this is the kind of appeal our work loses," she observes.

A LinkedIn article from Mark Stouse, noting how our current AI technology reflects what is easiest to make, not what might be most helpful and that trying to make computers approximate human intelligence is limiting, thinking about what we can get computers to do to COMPLEMENT humans instead is much more interesting and valuable.

The AI Quality Coup - by Julie Zhuo asks what constitutes quality work in the age of AI.

In the first full episode of season two of the Communicate Influence podcast, I have an engaging conversation with Bob Pickard, public relations counsel to names in the news and leadership communication authority, on the transformative role of artificial intelligence (AI) in PR and communications.

Bob, a seasoned PR professional, shares insights from his lecture late last year at Boston University, emphasizing that while AI is revolutionizing PR practices with tools like ChatGPT, the core principles of the profession remain unchanged.

Bob highlights how AI enhances PR work by enabling faster and more strategic decision-making. For instance, he uses ChatGPT as a "PR muse" to generate ideas, refine strategies, and assist in crisis management by providing actionable insights. However, he stresses that AI should not replace human judgment. He advises against relying on AI for final edits or public-facing content, as it lacks the nuanced understanding of tone, ethics, and human connection essential in PR.

We delve into the dichotomy between AI’s potential and its limitations. Bob notes that while AI can amplify creativity and efficiency—helping PR professionals craft smarter campaigns—it cannot replicate the depth of human relationships or the experience accumulated over decades. He underscores the importance of maintaining a "human voice" in corporate communications and ensuring rigorous fact-checking to avoid errors or "hallucinations" in AI-generated content.

Bob also explores the ethical challenges posed by AI. They express concerns about the misuse of generative AI for spreading misinformation or propaganda, particularly by malicious actors. Bob calls for stronger ethical governance to address these risks, warning that technology is advancing faster than the frameworks needed to regulate it.

We touch on how AI is reshaping industry dynamics. Bob predicts that commoditized PR services will diminish as organizations increasingly use AI internally for routine tasks. However, agencies and professionals who prioritize relationship-building and deliver bespoke, high-value services will thrive. He emphasizes that human connections remain irreplaceable in PR, as they foster trust and understanding that technology cannot replicate.

Finally, Bob reflects on the evolving media landscape, likening AI’s integration into search engines and social media to previous media revolutions like television and radio. He concludes with a hopeful message: while AI is a powerful tool, the essence of PR lies in human creativity, ethical practice, and meaningful relationships—qualities that technology cannot replace.

Hi, we're excited to announce that after a long break, the Communicate Influence podcast returns. The first five or so episodes of season two will focus on artificial intelligence from all angles. Be sure to listen and sign-up for our newsletter to avoid missed a guest who matters in your industry.

Transcript: Welcome to the Communicate Influence podcast. It's been about two or three years since I released the last episode of this podcast show. And I know it's never a good idea to start a podcast and then drop it without notice.

But sometimes life gets in the way and you just can't find the energy or the time to produce a good episode. I'm happy to say that the podcast is relaunching. And in the next five or six episodes, I'm going to be focusing on artificial intelligence and speaking to some people who really know how AI is impacting public relations, marketing, communications, and writing. My first guest is Bob Picard, a seasoned communications pro who provides counsel and issues management advice to CEOs around the world.

Next up will be an in-depth conversation with Mariya Delano of Kalyna Marketing in New York. She studied computing and physics before completing a degree in literature and creative writing. And so she offers a unique perspective on what AI can bring and cannot bring to marketing. If you'd like to hear about the additional guests I have lined up to speak about AI, sign up for the Communicate Influence newsletter at CommunicateInfluence.com.

That's Communicate Influence written as one word and then.com. And the next episode with Bob Pickard will be dropping in a few days. Thanks so much.

Even though the podcasting landscape is getting increasingly more crowded, the amount of people listening continues to grow too, which means that podcasts are still one of the most effective ways to get your message out there. 

If you’re looking to create and launch an independent podcast of your own, or even if you’re just an animal lover, today’s episode is a must-listen! Tuning in, you’ll hear from the creator and host of The Animal Guide for Curious Humans Podcast, Maureen Armstrong, as she shares invaluable insights into what it’s like to plan, create, and launch an independent podcast show. 

Maureen is very  busy, but she still managed to fit in creation of a podcast show. A lawyer, Maureen is also York University Ombudsperson, Toronto, and Chair of the Board of Directors of world Animal Protection Canada. 

We discuss what motivated her to begin podcasting, how she approaches episode planning, and her passion for connecting with guests, as well as the value of finding technical support, tips for growing an audience, and so much more! We hope you’ll join us for this fascinating conversation with animal advocate and podcast host, Maureen Armstrong.

Key Points From This Episode:

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Maureen Armstrong on LinkedIn

Maureen Armstrong on Twitter

Maureen Armstrong on Instagram

The Animal Guide for Curious Humans Podcast

World Animal Protection Canada

‘Animal welfare during the Ukraine crisis’

Freakonomics Podcasts

Animal Law Podcast

Ten Percent Happier Podcast

Communicate Influence

This week we continue our conversation with inspiring entrepreneur Mitch Callahan, CEO of the WooCommerce web development business Saucal.

Mitch shares how he and his business partner Dominik Sauter have grown Saucal in the last ten years. 

Both men are big proponents of remote work, because it gives people freedom. For Saucal, this means they've been able to hire from around the world and access a really large talent pool. 

Of course, remote teams bring their own challenges, so Mitch discusses how to manage a team when it's spread around around the world and across time zones. 

Mitch is a huge fan of storytelling and its power in brand building. He says that everyone launching a business today must really understand what makes them unique so that they can tell their story, carve out a niche, and work towards success.

We also explore:

• The importance of focus time and how to avoid distractions in the age of information overload. 
• How Saucal acquires client and how partnerships are really adding to the success of Saucal’s inbound marketing. 
• How to counter dark days and what to do when things feel overwhelming.

Two of the many books that have influenced Mitch's life are:

1. Rich Dad Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not! by Robert T. Kiyosaki

2. Good To Great : Why Some Companies Make The Leap and Others Don't, Jim Collins

Mitch on LinkedIn.

Dom on LinkedIn.

Saucal on Twitter.

The podcast show mentioned in the midroll: The Animal Guide for Curious Humans. 

Mitchell Callahan had a decent career in finance in Toronto, but turned away from it, heading west to Calgary to start a business. In a matter of months, he was seriously broke and working long days, without much of a glimmer of a break.

Living in a small two-bedroom apartment with his business partner Dominik Sauter, Mitch was driven more by curiosity, tenacity, and hope than ambition. Meanwhile, he heard plenty of stories from friends who all know someone who’d  launched a business and . . . well, it had failed. 

This was Mitch’s life in 2012. Today, he is CEO of one of the most successful web development agencies in the world, Saucal. Dom, meanwhile, is Saucal’s CFO. Saucal specializes in WooCommerce for WordPress. They’ve worked for Amazon, Facebook, Salesforce, and a diverse range of eCommerce businesses large and small. 

How to move beyond fear, doubt

In this episode, Mitch shares his story and gives actionable tips on how to:

• Maintain focus
• Counter doubt
• Embrace fear
• Deal with negativity
• Take advantage of the right opportunities
• Not feel overwhelmed when you have a lot going on
• Be curious!

Mitch explains how travel is essential for his personal growth and explores his pre-Saucal career years in Toronto. His diverse experience and journey through life have laid the foundations for the company Saucal is today. 

Back in 2012, Mitch was just finishing off a role in finance and about to begin law school when Dom, a close friend from university days, told Mitch he was launching a web development business. “Want to join me?” asked Dom. 

To Mitch, this was a no brainer. Mitch knew that should the opportunity arise to be in business with Dom, the answer would be an unequivocal yes. 

Mitch recalls dark periods of doubt. He was mired in debt, to the point of trying to pay for lunch one day, only for his debit card to be rejected. 

Says Mitch: “I'll never forget when I applied for a third personal credit card, and got rejected. I knew that was a good thing, but at the time I was not sure how I'd get more money.

“Looking back though, I made some of my BEST decisions here. I bought bitcoin and Ethereum when they were super cheap. In my lowest moments, I was making my smartest decisions.”

In the first year or so, Mitch and Dom had little to show for their doggedness. In year two, something shifted. And on a deeper level both men always knew a day would come when the grind would pay off and they’d make money, build a team, and have the lifestyles they wanted. 

Saucal’s team is spread around the world. As a fully remote company, they hire globally and so can - as Dom says - pick the best of the best. Mitch and his family have just moved from Toronto to Portugal, Dom is based in Calgary.

Mitch wasn’t raised in a business culture and it was only after working for the government and then in finance in Toronto that he yearned for the freedom, challenge, and responsibility that having his own business would bring. 

Mitch’s story is inspiring! If you don’t come from a business background and want to be in business, or have just launched a company and feel overwhelmed with challenges, this story will persuade you that it’s worthwhile and possible!

Find Mitch at Saucal and LinkedIn.

Here's the link to the podcast show I mentioned in the intro! The Animal Guide For Curious Humans.

How to create a podcast show from a weekly roundtable meeting was first published via Podmotion.co https://podmotion.co and proved a hit. So the team at Communicate Influence felt that listeners would appreciate hearing the episode. Here it is!

The episode features Rob Finlay, commercial real estate (CRE) owner, operator, and expert. Rob is a thought leader, podcaster, and CEO of Thirty Capital, a provider of services and solutions to commercial real estate firms.

Turning a weekly meeting into a podcast

Rob’s podcast, Commercial Real Estate Capital Markets Report, launched in April after he talked to a friend about a regular weekly call he has with his team of senior traders. The friend asked Rob if he could listen in to the call, and that’s when Rob realized it might be a good idea to turn the weekly roundtable discussion into a podcast show. 

Each roundtable episode discusses treasury rates, short-term rates, and everything related to debt and debt optimization for commercial real estate. Each episode helps CRE professionals determine if it is time to refinance, borrow, or what kind of action they should take to optimize or leverage their debt.

Before the podcast show launched, the weekly call took place and Rob and his team absorbed all the information shared during the roundtable, and shared it with callers if they thought it was relevant or important.

Encourage diverse discussion

Rob appreciates the diverse opinions that his analysts present in each episode. They are at a senior level, so of course they are opinionated. This discussion makes for a very animated conversation about how the capital markets could evolve in the coming, days, weeks, and months. 

Even though the meeting is now a podcast, it still has a informality about it, and listeners feel that they are right there in the meeting with Rob and his team.  They’ve been able to find the sweat spot where the informal collegial chat is absent, but it’s not super formal.

Experiment with your podcast show!

Rob encourages podcasters to learn and experiment as they go, and to not be afraid of the ever-evolving process. Feedback is crucial, as is room for growth.

He says the best thing about doing the show is the feedback and suggestions they are receiving from the listener. They are getting questions as well as feedback, and aim to answer them in the show. They questions also play a role in shaping the content of upcoming shows.

In this episode Rob also discusses:

• Figuring out how to slightly tweak the meeting format so it could be recorded
• Working with a consultant to launch a show
• How the new show has transformed Thirty Capital’s lead generation and marketing
• How much his team is enjoying being involved in the show
• Equipment used for the show
• Setting up measurable goals and expectations for a podcast show.

Find Rob on LinkedIn, Twitter, and at Thirty Capital. 

It's still early days in the world of voice tech, but already PR and marketing professionals are exploring what it can do for brands and audiences.

Carl Robinson, a podcast consultant and voice tech pro based in France. He owns a podcast consulting agency called Tizz Tech. Carl explains that lots of brands are experimenting with voice technologies in different ways to determine what works, and to discover, define best practices, and share that information. 

Rumble Studio

Carl explains that there are various movements, such as the Open Voice Network, which is sharing and defining standards for voice tech across many industries. 

Content discovery

In the comms and marketing world, one of the most obvious examples is content and content discovery through voice search.

"More and more content is being found through voice search as users ask their smart speakers or phones for whatever they are looking for," explains Carl.

"Companies are optimizing their web content for Google Assistant and the other smart speakers so that it's surfaced as a voice search."

Content can include pages created and optimized for voice which are then synthesized by the text-to-speech engine, and then read out through a smart speaker. It can also be actual audio content that a brand creates, such as a podcast or micro-cast, which is then returned by Google. 

There are now interactive voice response systems (IDR) with natural language understanding, and also call analysis. New technology is even able to transform heavy accents so that they are more easily understandable to customers.

Smart speakers are also being used by marketers for branding campaigns. Carl cites the example of Skilled Creative in the US, which is working with Meredith Corporation to produce custom voice tech apps for branding campaigns. 

Proceed with caution

Carl says that agencies wanting to get into voice tech should do a lot of research first, because developing voice tech is not like building a website. Consider working with an agency.

You can also use free tools like Voice Flow but don't underestimate the amount of work voice tech creation can take because it's complex and time-consuming.

Carl says that, at a minimum, comms and marketing pros should educate themselves about voice tech, and that means reading, listening to podcasts, and asking questions. Use the hashtag #voicefirst on Twitter for questions and conversations. 
Voice tech isn't a flash in the pan and it isn't going away. It's going to change the way we interact with all the devices around us. It behooves you to know what's coming up.

You can find Carl on Twitter and LinkedIn, and be sure to listen to his Voice Tech podcast!

Eli Schwartz is an SEO expert and the author of the new book, Product-Led SEO. Eli has more than a decade of experience driving successful SEO and growth programs for leading B2B and B2C companies. 

He helps clients like WordPress, Shutterstock, BlueNile, Quora, Getaround, Mixpanel, and Zendesk build and execute Global SEO strategies that dramatically increase their organic visibility at scale.

In this interview with Communicate Influence, we discuss SEO from a content writer's perspective, as well as some of the important questions around SEO.

Eli wrote his book to create a conversation around SEO for for executives and leaders on how to understand SEO, how to fund SEO, how to plan for SEO and how to strategize SEO. It's also for the SEO managers and the content managers in terms of how to think about SEO from a strategic and holistic standpoint, rather than just from a tactical standpoint.

Eli addresses of issue of high expectations with SEO and also it's lack of business visibility.

"The problem—and something I've been hoping to address with my — book, is that SEO doesn't have enough business visibility. 

"They're focused sometimes on these myopic metrics around here's my ranking or here's the traffic I've gotten, instead of this perspective of I'm here operating a channel to grow more business or to grow more revenue in total for this business."

The question businesses need to answer when it comes to SEO is: What can I do to help grow business, rather than what can I do immediately to create just traffic on this page. 

"It's important to have that perspective and do your best within that environment," explains Eli, encouraging SEO professionals to be a part of the holistic view in the holistic strategy of the entire business, rather than just this is what I'm going to do that's good for SEO, and that's it.

What is product-led SEO? 

To understand product-led SEO, you really need to understand what product-led SEO is not, says Eli.

"Product-led SEO is not content-led SEO," says Eli. "The way most people are going to do SEO is they're going to look at their core business product, and core business, and go to a keyword search tool to discover what the keyword is that they should put around for their core product offering. The next step most businesses take is to write some content that will be their SEO."

However, for Eli, product-led SEO is much more holistic than content-based SEO. With product-led SEO, a business creates a product—or an asset—for the search users. And when you're creating that asset for the search user, it's not just a blog post that you intend to rank on one keyword.

Eli explains that product-led SEO involves the creation of an online product or asset that a business uses to rank according to the needs of prospective clients or audience. 

"I'm now thinking of who is the user, because when you create products, you want to think about who the user is, and the roadmap to launch that product."

Examples of products include directories with content, or proprietary content. For some organizations such as consultancies, key issues that require questions and answers can serve as the product around which to build SEO. 

The next questions to ask are what resources are required to launch the product. "It's no longer just needing content because that is SEO. It's: 'Will I need a designer? An engineer to help launch that product? A content writer to write the right amount of content for that. Maybe I need some digital and visual assets'."

Full show notes at Communicateinfluence.com https://communicateinfluence.com/

Imagine giving an important presentation and suddenly hearing a strange noise coming from the back of the room. 

It takes only moments to discover that the sound is loud snoring from a man who's dozed off. Yes, someone has fallen asleep during your presentation.

Any presenter would feel badly. But only a handful would feel so affected y the experience that they'd eventually go on to write a book about storytelling, and the importance of storytelling in business.

Why storytelling in business matters

Colleen Stewart, author of The Story Compass: Navigating Through Uncertainty In Your Business, says that when we're at work we don't understand the power of story. "On a conscious level we don't talk about it that way. And so we don't always go to it automatically."

Colleen says that in almost any setting just presenting a list of features in bullet-point form isn't going to persuade, convince, or be memorable. 

"It's not captivating, it's not easily remembered, and it doesn't immediately communicate meaning."

To use the power of story we need to first of all "Talk about it, pull it out, open it up, and look at it for what it is and really understand how stories work. And then we can do it with more intention in business."

Businesses have moved away from storytelling but are recognizing that they need to get back to storytelling, and Colleen thinks it's almost become a bit of a buzzword. 

"There is a gap in our knowledge now of what a story actually is. So it's fine to say, as a business, okay, we have to tell a story, we have to make an emotional connection, we're going to communicate in a way that is relatable, we're going to communicate in a way that creates mental pictures. 

"Wonderful, but how do you do that? And that's the answer that I think is often missing, with a lot of services and, and consulting programs and efforts by marketing teams is that they don't actually know how to do it. And that's not a criticism. It's just, I think it's the reality.

Interpret what you know to give value to clients

The mistake many consultants make in a first meeting or presentation is simply sharing all the knowledge they have. 

Colleen Stewart

Four types of stories: Vision, Knowledge, Value, and Journey

When Colleen began working with clients on storytelling for their businesses, they'd say this is great, but that they didn't have any stories to tell. That was the seed that planted the idea for the book.

She has identified four story types that every business can share: Vision stories, knowledge stories, value stories, and journey stories. 

"We come back out of there and to a point where we're transformed, we know something new, maybe we have a new offering as a business that we can then share with the world. "

Find Colleen on Linkedin. Her business is Perfect Pitch, based near Toronto, Canada. Be sure to read The Story Compass: Navigating Through Uncertainty In Your Business.