The Deconstructionists

What if the relationship between Christianity and mind-altering substances is far more complicated than we've been taught?

For much of modern Christian history, drugs and spirituality have been presented as fundamentally opposing forces. But is that opposition as ancient as we assume? And what happens when we begin examining the historical relationship between religious ritual, altered states of consciousness, and the human desire to encounter the divine?

In Part One of our conversation, we're joined by Timothy McMahan King, Episcopal deacon and author of What Are Drugs For? An Exploration of Stolen Fire, for a fascinating exploration of drugs, religion, and the history of human consciousness.

Together, we examine the surprising intersections of ancient religious practices, sacred anointing oils, and the possibility that psychoactive substances played a role in certain spiritual traditions. We also explore how religious institutions have shaped our understanding of which experiences are considered sacred and which are dismissed as dangerous or illegitimate.

Along the way, we wrestle with some important questions:

• What role have mind-altering substances played in humanity's religious history?
• Is there historical evidence connecting psychoactive substances to ancient religious rituals?
• How did Christianity develop its modern attitudes toward drugs and altered consciousness?
• Who gets to determine whether a spiritual experience is authentic?
• And what might we discover when we approach these questions with curiosity rather than fear?

It's a conversation that challenges easy answers and invites us to reconsider the boundaries we've drawn between the sacred and the profane.

About Our Guest

Timothy McMahan King is an author, Episcopal deacon, and advocate whose work explores the intersection of spirituality, addiction, drug policy, and human flourishing. His book What Are Drugs For? An Exploration of Stolen Fire challenges conventional narratives about drugs and invites readers to consider their place in human culture, history, and spiritual experience.

A New Chapter: This Is Who We Become

After more than a decade of conversations on The Deconstructionists, we're preparing to begin something new.

Our upcoming podcast, This Is Who We Become, explores the extraordinary moments that transform ordinary lives.

Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Through intimate, deeply human conversations, we'll explore the experiences that change everything: loss, discovery, survival, transformation, and the unexpected events that reshape how we understand ourselves and the world.

Launching December 2026.

Visit our website and join the mailing list to be among the first to hear our new episodes:

Website: https://www.thisiswhowebecome.com

Have a story worth sharing? Nominate yourself or someone else:

https://www.thisiswhowebecome.com/nominatesomeone

Thank you for being part of The Deconstructionists community. We're so grateful for the curiosity, generosity, and openness you've brought to these conversations over the years.

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The History of Demons, Part Two: From Scripture to the Silver Screen | Halloween Special

How did the spirits of the ancient world become the demons of modern nightmares?

In the conclusion of our Halloween special, we pick up after our exploration of the Book of Enoch and turn to the New Testament, early Christianity, and the centuries of interpretation that followed.

From “unclean spirits” and the story of Legion to debates about pagan gods, fallen angels, and Lucifer, we examine how different texts and traditions became woven into a familiar supernatural story. We also explore Revelation’s symbolic, apocalyptic imagery—and why reading it in its historical and literary context matters.

Then we follow demons beyond scripture, through demonology, witch trials, literature, and modern horror. How much of what we picture today comes from ancient religious texts, and how much comes from the stories told afterward?

In part two:

• Demons, possession, and exorcism in the New Testament.
• Legion, Beelzebul, and the language of “unclean spirits.”
• Early Christian interpretations of pagan gods and demonic powers.
• How Satan, Lucifer, fallen angels, and demons became connected in later traditions.
• Revelation’s imagery and the importance of understanding apocalyptic literature.
• Demonology and witch trials.
• The influence of Dante, Milton, and the Faust tradition.
• Modern horror—and Pazuzu’s journey from ancient protective figure to cinematic terror.

The beings we call demons have never had one universally agreed-upon history. Their story is also a story about how human beings explain suffering, imagine evil, and give shape to the unknown.

Research resources and historical writings

• Justin Martyr — Second Apology, especially chapter 5. An early Christian account connecting transgressing angels and demons. This is a primary historical source rather than modern academic analysis.
• https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm
• Augustine — The City of God, Book IX. An influential Christian discussion of demons and their supposed role as intermediaries. This is a primary historical source.
• https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.IX.html
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art — “Pazuzu: Beyond Good and Evil.” Historical context for comparing the ancient Pazuzu with his modern horror counterpart.
• https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/pazuzu

Biblical texts explored

• Mark 5:1–20: The story of Legion.
• Matthew 12:22–32: Beelzebul and accusations concerning Jesus’ exorcisms.
• Isaiah 14: A passage central to later interpretations of Lucifer.
• Jude: References relevant to Enochic traditions and transgressing angels.
• Revelation 12: The dragon, heavenly conflict, and apocalyptic symbolism.

Literary works discussed

• Dante Alighieri — Inferno.
• John Milton — Paradise Lost.
• The Faust tradition.

These literary works are explored for their influence on popular imagination, distinct from ancient scripture and historical evidence.

New to this series? Start with part one for Mesopotamian spirits, Greek and Persian traditions, the Watchers, and the Book of Enoch.

If you enjoyed our Halloween special leave a rating or review, and share both episodes with someone curious about the history behind the things that scare us.

Be sure to join the mailing list so you don't miss out on our brand new podcast coming soon - This Is Who We Become at thisiswhowebecome.com

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The History of Demons, Part One: Ancient Spirits and the Watchers | Halloween Special

Before there was The Exorcist, there was Pazuzu. Before demons became synonymous with fallen angels, ancient cultures told very different stories about the unseen beings surrounding them.

In part one of our Halloween special, we trace the history of demons from ancient Mesopotamia through Greek and Persian traditions and into the religious world of ancient Judaism.

Along the way, we encounter protective demons, dangerous spirits, mysterious giants, and angels who cross a forbidden boundary. We also explore the Book of Enoch—a text that helped shape influential ideas about evil spirits, yet was excluded from most Christian biblical canons while remaining scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo tradition.

This isn’t an attempt to settle whether demons exist. It’s an exploration of how people’s understanding of their origins, nature, and purpose has changed across thousands of years.

In part one:

• Mesopotamian spirits and the dangers of applying modern definitions to ancient beliefs.
• Lamashtu, Pazuzu, and the use of frightening beings for protection.
• The Greek daimōn and the changing language of the supernatural.
• Zoroastrian traditions and the complexities of tracing religious influence.
• Genesis 6, the “sons of God,” and the Nephilim.
• The Book of Enoch’s Watchers, giants, and explanation for evil spirits.
• Why Enoch remained scripture in Ethiopian Christianity while most other Christian traditions did not include it in their Bibles.

Research resources

• ORACC — Ancient Mesopotamian Gods and Goddesses. Scholarly reference material on Mesopotamian religion and supernatural beings.
• https://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art — “Pazuzu: Beyond Good and Evil.” Pazuzu’s protective role and his relationship to Lamashtu.
• https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/pazuzu
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art — “Amulet with a Lamashtu Demon.” Material evidence of ancient protective practices.
• https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/326961
• Encyclopaedia Iranica — “DĒW.” A scholarly reference on demons in Iranian and Zoroastrian traditions.
• https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dew/
• Israel Antiquities Authority — The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library. A manuscript archive relevant to Second Temple Judaism and Enochic traditions.
• https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/

Primary texts explored

• Genesis 6:1–4: The “sons of God” and the Nephilim.
• 1 Enoch, especially chapters 6–16: The Watchers, the giants, and the spirits that emerge after their destruction.

Ancient religious texts are discussed as evidence of historical beliefs, alongside modern scholarship and archaeological material.

Coming in part two: We follow these traditions into the New Testament and explore how later theology, literature, and horror helped create the demons we recognize today.

Sign up now for the mailing list to follow the brand new project This Is Who We Become at thisiswhowebecome.com

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What does it mean to offer sanctuary—and what happens when the demands of conscience come into conflict with the law?

In Part Two of our conversation with historian and author Dr. Lloyd Barba, we continue exploring the legacy of the Sanctuary Movement and its relevance to the world we’re living in today.

Lloyd is the co-author, alongside Sergio M. González, of Sanctuary in America: How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants—And Why It Still Matters. Their book tells the story of people who mobilized to support immigrants and refugees, and the tensions their actions exposed between faith, government, and moral responsibility. Oxford Academic

As we wrap up this conversation, we invite you to consider what sanctuary can mean beyond the walls of a church—and what it asks of individuals and communities who believe that every person deserves dignity and safety.

If you missed the first half of our conversation, be sure to go back and listen to Part One!

📖 Learn more about the book:

Sanctuary in America by Lloyd D. Barba and Sergio M. González

Something New Is Coming: This Is Who We Become

Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

John’s new podcast, This Is Who We Become, is a series of conversations with people who have experienced moments that changed the course of their lives—and who are willing to share what happened next.

We’ve already announced some of our first guests, and there’s much more to come. Join the mailing list to hear about new guest announcements, launch updates, and upcoming episodes!

✉️ Join the mailing list: thisiswhowebecome.com

Thanks for listening to The Deconstructionists! If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with someone you think would appreciate it and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

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What happens when following your conscience means breaking the law? And what does it look like when faith moves beyond belief and becomes an act of resistance?

In this episode of The Deconstructionists, we're joined by historian and author Dr. Lloyd Barba to explore the remarkable history of the Sanctuary Movement and his book, Sanctuary in America: How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants—And Why It Still Matters.

During the 1980s, as refugees fled violence, persecution, and civil wars in Central America, churches and faith communities across the United States began opening their doors to people seeking safety. In defiance of federal immigration policies, religious leaders and everyday Americans risked arrest, prosecution, and their own security to offer sanctuary to vulnerable families.

But the Sanctuary Movement was about much more than immigration. It raised profound questions about the relationship between religion and government, the meaning of justice, and whether following the teachings of Jesus sometimes requires challenging the very institutions that claim to represent Christian values.

In Part 1 of our conversation, we explore the historical roots of sanctuary, the political and religious forces that shaped the movement, and the extraordinary individuals who believed their moral obligations transcended national borders.

Along the way, we wrestle with questions that remain just as relevant today: What does it mean to truly love our neighbors? Where should people of faith draw the line between obedience and resistance? And what can history teach us about the responsibilities we have toward those seeking refuge?

It's a fascinating conversation about faith, courage, compassion, and the power of ordinary people to challenge extraordinary injustice.

About Our Guest

Dr. Lloyd Barba is a historian whose research explores American religion, immigration, and the relationship between faith and social movements. His book, Sanctuary in America: How Activists Defied the Government and Defended Immigrants—And Why It Still Matters, examines the history and enduring significance of the Sanctuary Movement.

Find the book: Sanctuary in America — Book Search

Coming Soon: This Is Who We Become

We're also incredibly excited to share more about our upcoming podcast, This Is Who We Become!

Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Our new show explores the extraordinary moments that change people's lives forever, featuring deeply personal conversations about survival, transformation, resilience, loss, discovery, and what it means to begin again.

We've already started announcing our first guests, including NASA scientist Dr. Cristina Thomas, survivor and advocate Angela Harger Thompson, and acclaimed author Luis J. Rodriguez—with many more remarkable guests to come!

Help us launch this new chapter!

Visit www.thisiswhowebecome.com to subscribe to our free mailing list for guest announcements, exclusive updates, and launch news.

And please share the website with friends and family who might enjoy these conversations. Your support means everything as we prepare to bring this new project to life!

Stay Connected with The Deconstructionists

Thank you for listening and for being part of this community. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider sharing the episode, subscribing to the podcast, and leaving us a rating or review.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where we continue our conversation with Dr. Barba and explore the lasting legacy of the Sanctuary Movement and its relevance to the world we're living in today.

Until next time, keep asking questions.

Enjoy the music on this episode? Check out our friend Clay's tunes anywhere you find your music under his name Forrestclay.

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Angela Harger Thompson — “Worst T*ts Ever,” Part 2

We return for the concluding half of our conversation with Angela Harger Thompson, actor, filmmaker, and author of Worst Tits Ever.

Across this two-part interview, Angela’s story invites us to consider how trauma and controlling relationships can affect our understanding of ourselves—and what it can mean to reclaim our own narrative. Her memoir brings honesty and dark humor to experiences often surrounded by shame and silence.

Join us for the conclusion of a conversation about survival, the power of storytelling, and the person whose life extends beyond what happened to her.

If you haven’t heard Part 1, we recommend starting there.

Content note: This two-part conversation includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Learn more:

• Visit Angela Harger Productions to learn about Angela’s work and memoir, Worst Tits Ever.
• Join the mailing list for This Is Who We Become for guest announcements and launch updates. Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

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Angela Harger Thompson — “Worst T*ts Ever,” Part 2

We return for the concluding half of our conversation with Angela Harger Thompson, actor, filmmaker, and author of Worst Tits Ever.

Across this two-part interview, Angela’s story invites us to consider how trauma and controlling relationships can affect our understanding of ourselves—and what it can mean to reclaim our own narrative. Her memoir brings honesty and dark humor to experiences often surrounded by shame and silence.

Join us for the conclusion of a conversation about survival, the power of storytelling, and the person whose life extends beyond what happened to her.

If you haven’t heard Part 1, we recommend starting there.

Content note: This two-part conversation includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Learn more:

• Visit Angela Harger Productions to learn about Angela’s work and memoir, Worst Tits Ever.
• Join the mailing list for This Is Who We Become for guest announcements and launch updates. Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

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Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Angela Harger Thompson — “Worst T*ts Ever,” Part 1

Actor, filmmaker, and author Angela Harger Thompson joins The Deconstructionists for the first half of a candid conversation about her memoir, Worst Tits Ever, and the experiences that changed her life.

Angela shares her story of surviving sexual assault, navigating an abusive relationship, and finding herself on a sailing journey that became an increasingly unsafe situation. We explore the difficulty of recognizing abuse from inside a relationship, the shame and self-doubt that can follow trauma, and what it means to tell your story in your own words.

With honesty and dark humor, Angela brings us into a conversation about survival, identity, and reclaiming a voice that others tried to silence.

Content note: This episode includes discussions of sexual assault, drugging, abusive relationships, coercive control, and trauma. Please take care of yourself while listening.

Learn more:

• Visit Angela Harger Productions to learn about Angela’s work and memoir, Worst Tits Ever.
• Join the mailing list for This Is Who We Become, the next chapter after The Deconstructionists. Every life has a before. Every life has an after.

Continue Angela’s story in Part 2.

Special music provided by Forrest Clay from his Recover EP.

If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, confidential support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.

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In Part Two of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg, we explore the growing loss of trust in medicine and science—and what happens when that distrust opens the door to misinformation.

From unsupported claims connecting Tylenol to autism to the broader consequences of rejecting medical expertise, we examine why these ideas gain traction, how fear can travel faster than evidence, and why simply telling people they’re wrong rarely rebuilds trust.

We also discuss the need to hold institutions accountable for genuine failures without abandoning science altogether—and what honesty, humility, and transparency might contribute to restoring public confidence.

New Podcast Coming Soon!

Our new podcast, This Is Who We Become, explores the moments that divide a life into “before” and “after”—and the people we become because of them.

Visit https://thisiswhowebecome.com and join the mailing list for upcoming guest announcements, launch updates, and more.

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What if accepting evolution didn’t require abandoning faith?

Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray returns to The Deconstructionists to talk about her new book, Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God.

Janet is a science educator, author, and Jesus follower who was herself raised within creationism. In her latest book, she tackles one of the most persistent points of tension between modern science and certain expressions of Christianity: human evolution.

In Part One of our conversation, we dig into the remarkable story of how life developed on Earth and eventually produced us—from our ancient aquatic ancestors to primates, early humans, and Homo sapiens. Along the way, Janet helps unpack some of the evidence for evolution found in fossils, anatomy, genetics, and even the strange imperfections built into our own bodies.

We also explore why human evolution remains particularly difficult for many Christians to accept, why familiar objections like “If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?” misunderstand how evolution actually works, and what happens when the scientific evidence appears to conflict with the way we were taught to read Scripture.

And underneath it all is a much bigger question:

If human beings are part of the evolutionary story of life on Earth, what does it actually mean to say that we are made in the image of God?

That’s where things get really interesting.

This is Part One of our conversation with Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray.

Fish with Feet: Human Evolution and the Image of God is available from Eerdmans Publishing and wherever books are sold.

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