In this long-awaited and nearly lost conversation, John sits down with Pastor Joe Ingle, a longtime prison minister, advocate, and spiritual companion to people on death row. Joe’s work challenges our assumptions about justice, punishment, compassion, and what it means to show up for people society has thrown away.

This interview was recorded last year and was almost lost forever when the laptop it was saved on died unexpectedly. Miraculously, the file was recovered just in time — and we are finally able to share Part 1 of this important two-part conversation.

Following our recent episode with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, who offered insight into spiritual care within the military, Joe continues our exploration of ministry in difficult, often unseen places — where grief, hope, and humanity collide in profound ways.

In This Episode

In Part 1, we cover:

• Joe’s early call to prison ministry
• How he became involved with individuals facing execution
• What it actually looks like to walk with someone on death row
• The spiritual, emotional, and human complexities of prison chaplaincy
• How society frames “criminals” — and what we miss when we refuse to see their humanity
• The cost of compassion, and why Joe refuses to turn away
• Why faith traditions often struggle to handle justice and mercy well
• The surprising places Joe has seen grace show up behind bars

Why This Conversation Matters

Joe’s work invites us to confront just how uncomfortable — and necessary — compassion can be. His stories shine light on systems we rarely see and raise hard questions about accountability, punishment, redemption, and what Christian faith looks like when lived out in the shadows.

For listeners who appreciated our recent conversation with Chaplain Kerstin Hedlund, Joe’s perspective provides a powerful complement. Together, their episodes explore ministry in spaces most people never encounter, each revealing a different facet of what deep presence and care look like.

About Pastor Joe Ingle

Pastor Joe Ingle has spent decades ministering to incarcerated individuals across the United States, particularly those on death row. His work centers on accompaniment, advocacy, and restoring dignity to people society has deemed irredeemable. Joe is also an author and activist committed to criminal justice reform and the abolition of the death penalty.

Links & Resources

Grab a copy of Joe's book, "Too Close to the Flame: With the Condemned inside the Southern Killing Machine."

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Your support helps new listeners find these important stories.

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In this episode, we continue our conversation with Army Chaplain Lieutenant Colonel Kerstin Hedlund. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, we recommend starting there for context.

Kerstin has spent years serving alongside soldiers in moments of grief, trauma, transition, and deep personal struggle. Her work isn’t about offering easy answers. It’s about presence, listening, and holding space for real human complexity.

This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with suffering, loss, or disillusionment. It’s also for those who care deeply about someone who has served.

Kerstin’s insight offers a grounded and deeply humane perspective on what it means to stay present with one another through the hardest parts of life.

Resources & Further Reading

If you’d like to explore more about topics mentioned in this episode:

• “Soul Repair: Recovering from Moral Injury After War” – Rita Nakashima Brock & Gabriella Lettini
• The Moral Injury Project – Syracuse University
• VA National Center for PTSD: https://www.ptsd.va.gov
• Military Chaplaincy Overview: https://www.goarmy.com/chaplain

Connect with Us

• Website: thedeconstructionists.org
• Instagram: @deconstructionistspodcast
• X (Twitter): @deconstructcast
• Support the show: patreon.com/deconstructionists

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Episode Summary

In this two-part conversation, John sits down with Pastor Kerstin Hedlund, a U.S. Army Chaplain whose story offers a rare window into what faith looks like when it’s lived out in the hardest and most human places.

From her path into military chaplaincy to the deep questions that arise in the presence of trauma and moral injury, Kerstin’s perspective brings theology down to earth — into barracks, hospitals, and battle zones — where hope, compassion, and grief often collide.

Together they explore what it means to serve others in a system defined by hierarchy and discipline, how empathy and faith can survive amid loss, and why doubt and mystery might actually make us more compassionate people.

Why It Matters

Pastor Kerstin’s story reminds us that faith isn’t tested in seminaries or sanctuaries — it’s tested in the trenches of real life. Her honesty about doubt, fatigue, and renewal challenges the neat formulas we often attach to belief and invites us toward something deeper, more embodied, and more human.

Listen Now

🎧 Available wherever you get your podcasts.

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Episode: Hell, the Devil, and Atonement Theories

What exactly do Christians mean when they talk about hell? Where did the idea of the devil come from, and why does it look so different across the Bible? And why are there so many different theories of atonement—Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection—when most of us only ever hear one?

In this episode, we dig deep into the history, language, and theology behind three core ideas that have shaped Christianity for centuries:

• Hell – from Sheol and Gehenna in the Hebrew Bible to Dante’s Inferno and modern evangelical preaching.
• The Devil – tracing the figure from the Hebrew Bible’s “accuser” to the cosmic enemy of God in later Christian thought.
• Atonement Theories – surveying models from Christus Victor to Moral Influence to Penal Substitution, and asking how these different views reveal the diverse ways Christians have tried to understand salvation.

This conversation explores how these concepts developed over time, why they remain so influential, and what happens when we step back to ask whether we’ve been handed the whole story.

Helpful Resources & Further Reading

If you want to dive deeper, here are some books and articles we recommend:

On Hell

• Edward Fudge – The Fire That Consumes
• Robin Parry – The Evangelical Universalist
• Jerry L. Walls – Hell: The Logic of Damnation

On the Devil & Satan

• Elaine Pagels – The Origin of Satan
• Henry Ansgar Kelly – Satan: A Biography
• Archibald Robertson – The Devil: His Origin and His Fall

On Atonement Theories

• Gustaf Aulén – Christus Victor
• N.T. Wright – The Day the Revolution Began
• Fleming Rutledge – The Crucifixion: Understanding the Death of Jesus Christ
• Tony Jones – A Better Atonement (shorter, accessible resource)

Broader Resources

• Bart Ehrman – Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife
• C. S. Lewis – The Great Divorce (a classic imaginative take, though not academic)
• The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entries on “Hell,” “Satan,” and “Atonement” (for an open-access scholarly overview).

Connect with Us

• Website: thedeconstructionists.org
• Instagram & X: @deconstructcast

Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP

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Episode Description

In this episode, John takes on a question that’s been floating around the public conversation for years — often asked with fear, frustration, or misunderstanding: Is deconstruction a bad thing?

After years of listening to the debate unfold online and in church spaces, it felt like time to finally respond. This conversation is part of our current series tackling some of the most frequently requested topics from listeners — and few have come up as often as this one.

John explores what “deconstruction” actually means, why so many people are drawn to it, and how it’s often mischaracterized by those who haven’t walked through it. From faith crises to intellectual honesty, this episode invites listeners to see deconstruction not as the end of faith, but as a deeply human and often necessary process of growth.

🔍 Topics Covered

• Why the term “deconstruction” has become controversial
• How faith communities have responded — and why many get it wrong
• The philosophical roots of deconstruction (Derrida, Foucault, and beyond)
• Why deconstruction doesn’t equal destruction
• The emotional and spiritual side of rethinking belief
• Rebuilding after the unraveling — what comes next
• Listener questions: “Can you come back from deconstruction?”

💬 Key Takeaways

• Deconstruction isn’t rebellion — it’s reflection.
• Asking hard questions doesn’t destroy faith; it refines it.
• Healthy faith can withstand curiosity, doubt, and nuance.
• The goal isn’t to tear down belief, but to let go of what’s untrue so that something more honest can take root.

📚 Recommended Resources

• Books & Articles
• Faith After Doubt — Brian D. McLaren (Amazon)
• The Sin of Certainty — Peter Enns (Amazon)
• The Great Spiritual Migration — Brian D. McLaren (Amazon)
• Out of Sorts — Sarah Bessey (Amazon)
• Theology in the Raw — “Is Deconstruction a Bad Thing?” podcast episode (theologyintheraw.com)
• Essays & Think Pieces
• “Deconstruction Is Not the Enemy” — Sojourners Magazine
• “When Faith Falls Apart: Why Deconstruction Can Be Holy” — Relevant Magazine
• “The Difference Between Deconstruction and Destruction” — Religion News Service
• Follow the Conversation
• Instagram
• X / Twitter
• thedeconstructionists.com

🎧 Listen & Subscribe

Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.

👉 Don’t forget to leave a review and share the episode with someone who’s wrestling with their faith journey.

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Episode Summary

You’ve probably heard it before: “The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality.” But is that actually true?

In this episode, we put that claim under a microscope. We dig into the six main passages most often cited against same-sex relationships, examine them in their original language and cultural context, and confront the translation choices and theological assumptions that have shaped centuries of Christian thought.

We also respond to common accusations from fundamentalist circles—that affirming interpretations “don’t take the Bible seriously” or are just “twisting Scripture to fit modern culture”—and show how serious scholarship actually tells a different story.

Key Topics Covered

• Why the word “homosexual” did not appear in English Bibles until the 20th century

• How ancient cultures, including those in the biblical world, understood sexuality and relationships

• The difference between exploitative, non-consensual sexual acts in the ancient world and modern, loving, consensual same-sex relationships

• Detailed breakdown of:

• Genesis 19 (Sodom and Gomorrah)

• Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 (Holiness Code)

• Romans 1:26–27

• 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10

• Why context matters: ancient hospitality codes, temple prostitution, and cultural purity laws

• How fewer than a dozen verses address same-sex acts—compared to thousands on love, justice, and caring for the marginalized

• Why serious biblical scholarship supports an affirming view

Primary Sources & Scholarship

Research for this episode draws from respected biblical scholars, linguists, and historians, including:

General Context & Language Studies

• Matthew Vines – God and the Gay Christian

• David P. Gushee – Changing Our Mind

• James V. Brownson – Bible, Gender, Sexuality

• William Loader – The New Testament on Sexuality

Translation & Language Issues

• Ed Oxford – research on the history of the word homosexual in Bible translations

• Dale B. Martin – Sex and the Single Savior

Old Testament Context

• John J. Collins – Introduction to the Hebrew Bible (on Holiness Code)

• Martti Nissinen – Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective

• Dan McClellan - the Bible Says So: What we get Right (and wrong) About Scripture's Most Controversial Issues

New Testament Context

• N.T. Wright – various works on Paul (discussing cultural setting)

• Robin Scroggs – The New Testament and Homosexuality

• Ken Stone – Practicing Safer Texts: Food, Sex and Bible in Queer Perspective

Special music on this episode provided by Forrest Clay and Que Jones

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In Part Two of our interview with Sarah Hurwitz, we dive deeper into the big questions raised in Here All Along. Drawing on her experiences in both politics and faith, Sarah reflects on the role of ritual, the meaning of community, and how spiritual practices can ground us in an unsteady world.

In this episode, we discuss:

• How Jewish rituals and practices can bring balance to modern life.
• The challenge and beauty of faith communities today.
• Lessons from her time working with President Obama’s speechwriting team and Michelle Obama.
• How wisdom traditions can help us wrestle with meaning, identity, and purpose.

About Sarah Hurwitz

Sarah Hurwitz served as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and as chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama from 2010 to 2017. Since leaving the White House, she has become a leading voice in exploring spirituality and Jewish identity for a new generation.

• 📖 Book: Here All Along (Amazon)
• website: https://www.sarahhurwitz.net/
• 🌐 Author Page: Penguin Random House – Sarah Hurwitz

Stay connected with The Deconstructionists and never miss an episode:

• 🎧 Apple Podcasts
• 🎧 Spotify
• 🌐 Official Website
• 📱 Follow us on Instagram, X / Twitter, and Facebook

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In this first half of our conversation with Sarah Hurwitz—author, former White House speechwriter, and chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama—we explore her journey from the political stage to a deeply personal exploration of faith. Sarah was part of President Obama’s speechwriting team, helping craft some of his most memorable addresses, before turning her attention to spirituality and Jewish identity.

Her latest book, Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life—in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There), invites readers to rediscover ancient wisdom and reimagine what faith can mean in the modern world.

In Part One, we talk about:

• Sarah’s path from politics to spirituality.
• What drew her to reconnect with her Jewish roots.
• The inspiration and process behind writing Here All Along.
• Why ancient traditions can still speak powerfully today.

About Sarah Hurwitz

Sarah Hurwitz served as a senior speechwriter for President Barack Obama and as chief speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama from 2010 to 2017. Since leaving the White House, she has become a leading voice in exploring spirituality and Jewish identity for a new generation.

• 📖 Book: Here All Along (Amazon)
• website: https://www.sarahhurwitz.net/
• 🌐 Author Page: Penguin Random House – Sarah Hurwitz

Stay connected with The Deconstructionists and never miss an episode:

• 🎧 Apple Podcasts
• 🎧 Spotify
• 🌐 Official Website
• 📱 Follow us on Instagram, X / Twitter, and Facebook

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Episode Summary

The Bible is often treated as if it arrived perfectly bound, leather-covered, and gold-edged, straight from heaven. But the reality is far more complex—and far more interesting.

In this episode, we dig into the real history of how the Bible was formed—from its earliest writings to the process of canonization, from the Apocrypha to translation controversies, and why no one alive today has ever held an original manuscript.

We’ll talk about:

• When the books were likely written

• Who scholars think wrote them

• Why certain books were included or excluded

• The political and theological forces that shaped the canon

• How translation is never neutral

• Why inerrancy is a recent idea in Christian history

By the end, you’ll see the Bible not as a static, untouchable artifact, but as a living record shaped by people, history, culture, and language.

Key Topics Covered

• The Bible as a library, not a single book

• Timeline of Old and New Testament composition

• The development of the Jewish Scriptures and Christian canon

• The role of councils and church politics in determining canon

• The Apocrypha—what it is and why it’s in some Bibles but not others

• How the Dead Sea Scrolls changed what we know about biblical history

• Why we don’t have original manuscripts, and how scholars reconstruct the text

• Major translation milestones—from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate to the King James Version to modern editions

• How the concept of biblical inerrancy only took root in the late 19th–early 20th centuries

Primary Sources & Scholarship

The research for this episode draws from respected biblical scholars, historians, and textual critics, including:

Canon Formation & Authorship

• Bart D. Ehrman – Jesus, Interrupted; Misquoting Jesus; Lost Scriptures

• John Barton – A History of the Bible: The Story of the World’s Most Influential Book

• Bruce M. Metzger – The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance

• Lee Martin McDonald – The Biblical Canon: Its Origin, Transmission, and Authority

Dating & Historical Context

• Paul’s letters: c. 50–60 CE

• Gospel of Mark: c. 65–70 CE

• Matthew & Luke: c. 80–90 CE

• John: c. 90–100 CE

• Revelation: c. 95 CE

• John J. Collins – Introduction to the Hebrew Bible

Dead Sea Scrolls

• Lawrence H. Schiffman – Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls

• James VanderKam – The Dead Sea Scrolls Today

Excluded & Apocryphal Texts

• Marvin Meyer – The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus

• Karen L. King – The Gospel of Mary of Magdala

• Timothy Michael Law – When God Spoke Greek: The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible

Textual Criticism & Manuscripts

• Daniel B. Wallace – works on New Testament textual variants and manuscript dating

• Eldon Jay Epp – Perspectives on New Testament Textual Criticism

Translation History & Inerrancy

• Peter Enns – The Bible Tells Me So

• Kenton L. Sparks – God’s Word in Human Words

• Mark Noll – The Civil War as a Theological Crisis

Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover EP. Find it anywhere you find your music!

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🧵 Episode Summary:

In Part 2 of our conversation with Bailey Krawczyk, we move from the experience of life inside Hillsong to the harrowing process of getting out. Bailey opens up about the aftermath of leaving, the emotional toll of speaking out in the Hillsong documentary, and the backlash from those still inside the movement.

We also explore the broader systems that allowed abuse and control to flourish unchecked—and why naming these systems is the first step toward healing.

🔑 Key Themes:

• The trauma of leaving a high-control religious group
• Psychological aftermath: shame, guilt, grief, and recovery
• The media spotlight and what it didn’t show
• How systems of power protect abusive leadership
• Deconstructing your faith after spiritual betrayal

🧑‍💼 About the Guest:

Bailey Krawczyk continues to advocate for survivors of spiritual and institutional abuse. Her story has resonated with thousands of others who have walked away from toxic faith environments in search of something more whole, more honest, and more human.

📌 Resources Mentioned:

• Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed [Discovery+ / Hulu]
• https://www.instagram.com/baileykrawczyk/
• Film: https://vimeo.com/1088719956
• [Book recommendation] When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
• [Podcast] Leaving Hillsong
• [Resource] ICSA: International Cultic Studies Association – www.icsahome.com

🔁 Follow & Subscribe:

If this conversation resonated with you, don’t forget to follow, rate, and review The Deconstructionists wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with someone who might be ready to hear it.

Special music by Forrest Clay from the Recover E.P.

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