SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and Global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

SHOWNOTES:

Anuja misspoke at 1:38:10. She says Debra Motsinger but she meant *Donna Motsinger.

11:35: For clarity: When Anuja says “70s and 80s”, she means that some of the alleged assaults took place as far back as then.

30:56: Matt Lauer’s interview with Tamara Green was in 2005 and he was fired for sexual misconduct in 2017 (not 30 years later, as Anuja said – that was the time gap Matt Lauer grilled Tamara Green on during the interview).

44.07: Fear of being *disbelieved

1:00:44: End of the trials in *2018

1:24:40: Tamara Green did not testify in the Bill Cosby trials. The accusers that testified were: Kelley Johnson (first trial), Heidi Thomas, Chelan Lasha, Janice Baker-Kinney, Janice Dickinson, and Lisa Lotte-Lublin (second trial).

1:34:03: We cannot say that it is *reasonable…

1:37:46: “She” refers to Nicole Weisensee Egan in The Daily Beast article quoted below

Nicole Weisensee Egan’s book (covers 2005-2019):

Chasing Cosby: The Downfall of America's Dad by Nicole Weisensee Egan
 

Nicole Weisensee Egan, Chasing Crosby: The Downfall of America’s Dad (Berkeley, California: Seal Press, 2019)

Legal documents:
 

Press Release closing the 2005 investigation (later claimed to be an immunity agreement
 

Press release from Montgomery County, Pennsylvania signed by Bruce Castor, then District Attorney. Published on February 17, 2005.

2015 Police Complaint, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Bill Cosby

Shared by the New York Times. Complaint dated December 29, 2015.

Excerpts from Bill Cosby’s Deposition in his Civil Case with Andrea Constand, settled in 2005.

New York Times Excerpts

The LA Times Excerpts

Andrea Constand’s Victim Impact Statement

Submitted to the Court for Bill Cosby’s sentencing. Shared by the New York Times on September 25, 2018.

Appeal Judgment from Supreme Court of Pennsylvania overturning Bill Cosby’s conviction

Argued December 1, 2020 and decided on June 30, 2021.

For full show notes visit: https://thedefendants.substack.com/p/bill-cosby

If you have questions or ideas about the show we’d love to hear them!

Email us at [email protected]

You can also find us on instagram: we’re @thedefendantspodcast and Jane is @jane_aster_roe

If you want Jane to appear on your show, email Dalton Higgins at [email protected].

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Anuja Jaiswal - Host

Rachel Arundel - Executive Producer, Video Editor

Katie Jensen - Executive Producer, Editor, Sound Designer

Elisha Bonnis - Forging Your Own Justice Path 

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

The Episode

Elisha tells Jane about finding a way to use the civil litigation system to hold her assailant accountable after the criminal system failed her. 

Listen to Episode 6 - I Went Through the Justice System and All I Got was a Branded Stress Ball: thedefendants.substack.com/episode-6-i-went-through-the-justice to hear more about the imperfect paths survivors can choose in the aftermath of justice, and how the civil system is one of them. Elisha made the unusual choice of choosing the civil litigation system even though there wouldn't be a monetary reward at the end. She did this to demonstrate the flaws in the system and to force accountability. Her case went to trial and is now going to the appeals court in British Colombia. It is scheduled for March 18, 2027.

More Reading on Elisha:

Article on her first trial being canceled

Her story on GoFundMe

YOU are how this project will grow. By listening you are helping new ideas and conversations take shape - both on the podcast, amongst your friends and beyond. Thank you for being here.

If our conversation with Marlee resonated with you, or if you learnt something new, here are a few of the ways you can support us:

• Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts
• Leave a 5 star review - it helps more people discover the show
• Become a paid Substack subscriber. Access bonus episodes, subscriber only content and feel extra good knowing that your paid support helps us to continue the conversations we're having.
• Make a one-time donation. Visit: https://buymeacoffee.com/thedefendants
• Share with a friend and help grow the conversation

We’d love to hear from you.
Do you have a question or an idea for the show?
A story you’d like to share?
Is there a person, organisation or business you think we should connect with?

• Email: [email protected]
• Instagram: @thedefendantspodcast | @jane_aster_roe
• Media Appearances: [email protected]

The Defendants: Case Files is the next iteration of The Defendants. Our first six episodes explored how the justice system is set up, and why it doesn't work for cases involving sexual violence. We are working on our next six, which will further explore how we can change this system for the better. In the interim, we want to keep the conversation going, and we're doing that with Defendants: Case Files.

Once a month, myself and human rights expert Anuja Jaiswal are going to look into a specific case that caught our attention and ignited conversation. We're going to discuss what happened, why it played out that way, and what we think that can tell us about not just the justice system, but about us, and how our reactions contribute to the problem.

Additional quoted article sources can be found on our Substack here.

YOU are how this project will grow. By listening you are helping new ideas and conversations take shape - both on the podcast, amongst your friends and beyond. Thank you for being here.

We’d love to hear from you.

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.

The Defendants: Case Files is the next iteration of The Defendants. Our first six episodes explored how the justice system is set up, and why it doesn't work for cases involving sexual violence. We are working on our next six, which will further explore how we can change this system for the better. In the interim, we want to keep the conversation going, and we're doing that with Defendants: Case Files.

Once a month, myself and human rights expert Anuja Jaiswal are going to look into a specific case that caught our attention and ignited conversation. We're going to discuss what happened, why it played out that way, and what we think that can tell us about not just the justice system, but about us, and how our reactions contribute to the problem.

Today, we're bringing you an episode about probably the most famous case in recent history - Harvey Weinstein. The allegations against Harvey Weinstein printed in both the New York Times and the New Yorker are broadly attributed to kicking off the MeToo movement. Recently his New York rape charge was dropped and his California charges were sent to resentencing. We wanted to talk about how this case, which was so talked about, came to our consciousness, and just barely squeaked through the legal system.

At 9:04 Anuja says potential accuser and means potential accused

Show notes may also be found on our Substack.

Criminal Charges:

The New York Charges:
New York News - Harvey Weinstein Surrenders to NYPD

Initial 2020 Conviction:
Harvey Weinstein is Found Guilty of Rape in #MeToo Watershed

Jan Ransom's Article that details why some Charges didn't stick

A Breakdown of the New York Testimony:
The Six Women Who Accused Harvey Weinstein At His Trial and What they Said

The Conviction is Overturned with Breakdown on Why From CBC News

The Article with the Sentence Jane Disliked -
"After the mixed verdict last year Ms. Mann said, 'I am ready, willing and able to endure this as many times as it takes for justice and accountability to be served.' But throughout this week, she has taken several brakes and has at times cried on the stand."

Takeaways from Week 2 In Testimony at the Harvey Weinstein Trial

Harvey Weinstein's Recent Rape Charge Dropped After Jury Deadlocks a Second Time

*To clarify Anuja and Jane's wording in the episode around how many times Jessica Mann had to testify:

She testified in front of a grand jury (which is essentially when you have to convince a jury that a crime happened and therefore it's worth prosecuting) and did three separate trials. The first trial, the conviction was overturned, and the second two, the jury deadlocked, meaning they couldn't come to a verdict.

The California Charges and Victims:
Harvey Weinstein's Los Angeles Trial Begins

California Court Upholds Conviction but Orders New Sentencing

On The Cross Examination Issue:
From The New York Courts - Cross Examination Rules state that as long as the questions fit any other rules that are set for cross, you can be examined on any witness evidence that is admitted into trial.

The Molineux Rule - This is the rule that got his conviction overturned (you can't use evidence of prior crimes that the defendant isn't currently being charged with. The thought process is that by including the accounts of the three women whose testimony did not lead to charges as evidence, you are assuming that he's guilty of those acts, that haven't been proven and that biases the jury.)

The News Investigations:

Note: Most of the information around the reporting by Jodi, Megan, and Ronan is from these core sources. The stories you hear about victims of Harvey Weinstein like Zelda Perkins and Rowena Chiu are reported by both sets of journalists across their respective works. As stated, most of the quotes in this episode come from She Said. The quote from The New Yorker Lawyer responding to Weinstein's lawyer's allegations of Ronan Farrow's Bias comes from The Catch and Kill Podcast, Episode 7: Editors.

Additional Sources:

Thanks for listening and being a part of this conversation. This is a completely grassroots, independent project and our ability to continue depends on your support.

Subscribe to our Substack for additional content and please consider making a one time donation here. Any amount will help us continue.

It also helps to subscribe to this show and share it with a friend! Help grow the conversation.

If you have questions or ideas about the show we'd love to hear them!

Email us at [email protected]

You can also find us on instagram: we're @thedefendantspodcast and Jane is @jane_aster_roe

If you want Jane to appear on your show, email Dalton Higgins at [email protected].

When the body feels like a “crime scene”, how do you heal? Listen as Jane and Marlee Liss discuss healing after sexual violence, reconnecting with your body, why the court system so often fails survivors, and how restorative justice and a rethink of masculinity could offer a better path forward.

Marlee Liss is an award-winning speaker, leading survivor advocate, author and somatic educator. Her personal survivor case set precedent in the North American legal system, and in 2024 she founded Survivors 4 Justice Reform, a global, volunteer-run, survivor-led coalition that works to advance policy change that challenges the failures and violence of punitive, carceral systems.

Marlee shares how writing became central to her healing, from late-night scribbling to get the feelings out of her body, to a way of connecting with others. Her forthcoming book, If I Had Known Then (February 9th 2027), follows her experience of healing and fighting for justice after trauma. This was a conversation we were looking forward to for months, and it’s one you won’t want to miss. 

The full 40-minute episode goes deeper into accountability, breaking cycles of violence, and rethinking masculinity. To hear it, become a paid subscriber on Apple Podcasts or on Substack.

As always, take care as you listen. This episode explores sexual violence, the criminal legal system, and alternative justice pathways, we have resources available in the show notes below.

00:22 - Expanding the conversation
01:04 - Writing after trauma
03:01 - Storytelling and empathy
04:23 - Dance: Detachment & reconnection
07:06 - Somatic healing: Our bodies have wisdom
11:46 - How the criminal legal system fails survivors
16:23 - We don't have to be complacent
18:37 - Justice doesn’t look the same for all survivors
19:30 - Survivors 4 Justice Reform

Check out The Defendants Episode 3 - The Perfect Victim: thedefendants.substack.com/episode-3-the-perfect-victim

Or, Episode 6 - I Went Through the Justice System and All I Got was a Branded Stress Ball: thedefendants.substack.com/episode-6-i-went-through-the-justice

YOU are how this project will grow. By listening you are helping new ideas and conversations take shape - both on the podcast, amongst your friends and beyond. Thank you for being here.

If our conversation with Marlee resonated with you, or if you learnt something new, here are a few of the ways you can support us:

We’d love to hear from you.

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.

...it's working as designed. And it was never designed for survivors of sexual assault. Instead, victims are treated like guilty parties. Their clothes, drinking, memory - their entire history go on trial. They become the defendants, called upon to provide evidence for the prosecution and to act as witnesses to the crimes committed against them. So, what would a system that centers survivors actually look like?

YOU are how this project will grow. By listening you are helping new ideas and conversations take shape - both on the podcast, amongst your friends and beyond. Thank you for being here.

We’d love to hear from you.

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.

We’re talking about what survivors actually get out of the justice system and what they want out of it.

0:13 - Jane's trial
1:47 - Chanel Miller: guilty verdict, insufficient sentence
4:14 - What survivors want: accountability
5:36 - Denial as a second victimization
6:22 - Restorative justice
8:22 - Surrogates for when direct dialogue isn't safe or possible
11:51 - Civil litigation
13:51 - Contingency fees and the cost barrier
15:01 - NDAs and victim silence
17:22 - A new system: accountability over punishment

All sources, statistics, multimedia clips, and music credits are available on Substack.

The Defendants is a podcast exploring how sexual assault cases move through the justice system… and why it never seems to work in favour of victims. We want to know what has to change within the system for it to actually work, and we are interrogating what justice means in the aftermath of trauma. This is a podcast where we figure out exactly how this system fails, why, and what to do about it.

Thanks for listening and being a part of this conversation. This is a completely grassroots, independent podcast. Your support directly funds our ability to continue. 

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.

We’re going backwards so we can map our way forwards.

0:10 - The law has a gender
2:06 - Common law and British colonial history
3:15 - A system designed to exclude: patriarchal origins of law
6:11 - Women as property
8:11 - Spousal rape criminalized (1983)
8:24 - Consent enters the Canadian Criminal Code (1992)
9:17 - Rape shield laws (1992)
9:55 - Why the system moves so slowly
10:32 - Reactionary periods and stalled progress
11:41 - Revenge porn and deepfakes
12:38 - "Consent is like a cup of tea" metaphor and stealthing
13:43 - Life after #MeToo

All sources, statistics, multimedia clips, and music credits are available on Substack.

The Defendants is a podcast exploring how sexual assault cases move through the justice system… and why it never seems to work in favour of victims. We want to know what has to change within the system for it to actually work, and we are interrogating what justice means in the aftermath of trauma. This is a podcast where we figure out exactly how this system fails, why, and what to do about it.

Thanks for listening and being a part of this conversation. This is a completely grassroots, independent podcast. Your support directly funds our ability to continue. 

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.

We’re looking at what it takes to get a verdict of guilty or not guilty and what it means.

1:00 - The numbers: 2 guilty verdicts out of 1,000 assaults
1:25 - Guilty vs not guilty: what the terms mean
1:42 - Beyond all reasonable doubt
4:03 - Narratives that can be created around facts
6:04 - What is considered evidence?
7:32 - Why do prosecutors drop cases?
9:04 - The odds of winning sexual assault cases
10:48 - Jury bias, victim performance, trauma from trial
13:27 - Speedy trial law and stayed charges
16:35 - When the legal outcome doesn't match evidence of harm

All sources, statistics, multimedia clips, and music credits are available on Substack.

The Defendants is a podcast exploring how sexual assault cases move through the justice system… and why it never seems to work in favour of victims. We want to know what has to change within the system for it to actually work, and we are interrogating what justice means in the aftermath of trauma. This is a podcast where we figure out exactly how this system fails, why, and what to do about it.

Thanks for listening and being a part of this conversation. This is a completely grassroots, independent podcast. Your support directly funds our ability to continue. 

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.

We’re looking at what makes an ideal victim in the eyes of the law, and society, and who is more likely to be believed.

0:11 - The week before Jane's case went to trial
1:57 - The damsel in distress archetype
3:17 - Nils Christie's ideal victim theory
4:51 - Phil's story: when male survivors are dismissed
8:00 - Ann's case: when victims don't fit the mold
9:34 - Race and credibility
11:03 - Vanessa's story: when assumptions are made
12:25 - Lem's experience: becoming your own advocate
13:06 - Mental illness and credibility
18:40 - Why the "perfect victim" stereotype is a trap

All sources, statistics, multimedia clips, and music credits are available on Substack.

The Defendants is a podcast exploring how sexual assault cases move through the justice system… and why it never seems to work in favour of victims. We want to know what has to change within the system for it to actually work, and we are interrogating what justice means in the aftermath of trauma. This is a podcast where we figure out exactly how this system fails, why, and what to do about it.

Thanks for listening and being a part of this conversation. This is a completely grassroots, independent podcast. Your support directly funds our ability to continue. 

SA Survivor Resource Document - This document contains Canadian, U.S, and global sources to find guidance, information, and aid for survivors of sexual assault. Detailed descriptions of each resource within the document.

Jane Aster Roe - Executive Producer, Host

Thank you for listening. Be kind to yourself and to one another.