We are all exhausted by the pandemic, including unproductive conversations about COVID. Yet wise dialogue about effectiveness has been hard to find. Using the concepts of wisdom and effectiveness as his frame, Matt talks with Neil and Mike, two professors of epidemiology. What insights about wisdom has the pandemic given us? And how can we use those insights to remain effective as society reopens and beyond? I'll let you, the listener decide how well we pulled off the mission. Feel free to give your feedback and join the discussion!