There’s a certain mythos around the founders of the United States. George Washington gets this treatment to the extreme. He’s painted riding brilliant white horses, standing up in boats, and puffing out his chest as he presides over the signing of the Constitution. He’s essentially an American folk hero.

What’s odd is that this mythical understanding of a real person conceals the truth of what real leadership looks like. At least, that’s the perspective of General Stanley McChrystal, who rose through the ranks of the military and had to learn a lot about leadership along the way.

General McChrystal thinks that too many people view our leaders as if they’re cut from a different cloth, when in fact, leaders are fallible, and reliant on the people around them to succeed.

He co-wrote the book Leaders: Myth and Reality, wherein he profiles many influential leaders, both moral and corrupt. The book is loosely structured on Plutarch’s Parallel Lives biographies. In the book, he profiles the leadership strategies of Martin Luther, Coco Chanel, Walt Disney, William “Boss” Tweed and others. He also gives one chapter to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an Al Qaeda leader that he fought for years.

General McChrystal is quick to separate his respect for a leader’s style from that leader’s actions. While that’s certainly true of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, McChrystal also attempts to clarify his complicated relationship with General Robert E Lee, a man who he grew up nearly worshipping as a leader. In his years since childhood, McChrystal’s tried to balance his respect for Lee’s leadership with a moral obligation to fight bigotry and symbols of hate.

After his military career ended, General McChrystal became the Board Chair of the Service Year Alliance, which helps youth to do a paid year of civil service.

Guest: General Stanley McChrystal

Book: Leaders: Myth and Reality

Producer: Victor Ye

Music: Silas Bohen and Coleman Hamilton

Editors: Bethany Denton and Jeff Emtman