The Freedom Founders Podcast

Your net worth has grown. Your retirement accounts look healthy. But what happens when your paycheck stops?

In this episode, Dr. David Phelps reconnects with Dr. Mart McClellan, a former practicing orthodontist and co-founder of Macro Wealth, to explore the gap between accumulating wealth and creating income you can live on.

Mart explains why accumulation, distribution, and preservation belong in the same conversation from the beginning. They discuss the tradeoffs behind tax-deferred retirement accounts, the importance of keeping capital accessible, and why feeling behind can lead successful professionals to make financial decisions they later regret.

They also explore how couples can find common ground when their definitions of financial security differ—and why financial decisions deserve the same evidence-based thinking we expect in clinical practice.

For owners considering their next chapter, the question goes beyond how much you’ve saved: How will that money support your life when you choose to work less?

In This Episode

• The gap between growing your net worth and replacing your active income.
• How inflation can distort your sense of financial progress.
• Why accumulation, distribution, and preservation need to work together.
• The tradeoffs between tax deferral, access, and control.
• Why the urge to “catch up” can lead to costly decisions.
• How spouses can align around risk and financial security.
• Mart’s approach to testing financial decisions before making them.

Episode Links

Connect with Dr. Mart McClellan: [email protected]
Request a copy of Your Retirement Smile by emailing Mart.
Get Dr. David Phelps’s free Exit Optional Playbook: https://exitoptional.com

Episode Highlights

00:00 – Turning Wealth Into Income—and Keeping Your Options Open
00:36 – Seven Years Later: What’s Changed Since Our Last Conversation
02:04 – Inflation, Interest Rates, and the Growing National Debt
04:48 – The Stealth Tax: What Your Account Balance Doesn’t Tell You
07:16 – Accumulation, Distribution, and Preservation: Planning for All Three
09:30 – “I Thought I’d Be Further Along”: Financial Decisions Across Career Stages
11:47 – Accumulation vs. Acceleration: Putting Your Capital to Work
15:18 – Building Flexibility Outside Your Retirement Accounts
20:13 – Tax Deferral, Access, and Control: Understanding the Tradeoffs
23:36 – When Spouses Define Financial Security Differently
28:02 – Why Mart Moved From Clinical Orthodontics Into Financial Planning
31:14 – Connect With Dr. Mart McClellan and Request Your Retirement Smile
33:09 – Before You Sell: Are You Ready for What Comes Next?

What if the life you've been working so hard to create is already within reach—but you're too busy running your business to start living it?

Many entrepreneurs reach a point where they're making more money than ever, yet feel more overwhelmed, frustrated, and disconnected from the life they originally wanted.

In this episode, Dr. David Phelps sits down with Trevor Mauch, entrepreneur and founder of Carrot, to explore why successful business owners get stuck—and how to break free without abandoning everything they've built.

Trevor shares his Four Paths framework, explaining how success can quietly turn into complacency, frustration, and eventually burnout. He also walks through the personal systems he uses to stay intentional about his business, health, family, and future.

This conversation challenges a common assumption: that the answer to feeling stuck is simply working harder.

Conversation Highlights:

02:05 – What Did You Hire Your Business to Do for You?
04:17 – The Four Paths: Navigating Business and Life
05:40 – The Six Fs: Measuring What Really Matters
07:33 – Staying Above the Line: Success and Transformation
08:10 – The Danger of Default Mode and Drifting
11:53 – Getting Unstuck: Reconnecting with Your Vision
14:47 – Why Indecision Keeps Entrepreneurs Trapped
17:59 – When Success Leads to Burnout
20:24 – Buying Back Your Time and Energy
22:15 – The Entrepreneur Freedom Formula
24:51 – Plan Your Life First: The Pre-Stacked Year
28:46 – Making Decisions Before It's Too Late
30:12 – The Real Measure of Success: How You Spend Your Time

The Bigger Question

Are you still building the life you set out to create—or have you simply gotten better at maintaining the business?

Trevor's message is that you don't have to wait for a financial milestone, an exit, or a crisis to begin making changes.

Sometimes the most important step is deciding what matters now—and giving it a place on your calendar before everything else fills it.

What good is the freedom we've spent a lifetime building if we don't use it to make a difference?

In this episode, Dr. David Phelps sits down with Rick Green, founder of Patriot Academy and former Texas state legislator, to explore what it means to use our freedom, experience, and influence to make a lasting difference.

Rick shares how his father's encouragement shaped his life, why he shifted his focus from politics to educating the next generation, and what he's learned from more than 25 years of developing young leaders.

They also discuss what older generations misunderstand about young people, why we've lost the ability to disagree without hostility, and how to move beyond frustration and outrage toward meaningful action.

For business owners considering their next chapter, Rick offers a practical challenge: You don't need to run for office, start an organization, or write a large check to make a difference. There are meaningful ways to invest your time, resources, and experience right where you are.

In This Episode

• How Rick's father helped shape his confidence, character, and sense of purpose.
• Why Rick believes developing the next generation is more important than winning elections.
• What young people really want from leaders, parents, and mentors.
• How to disagree without hostility—and why curiosity matters more than winning an argument.
• Why moving from outrage to agency starts with taking responsibility for what we can influence.
• Rick's practical 2-2-2 framework for getting involved and making a difference.

Episode Links

Patriot Academy: https://patriotacademy.com

The Exit Optional Playbook: https://exitoptional.com

Episode Highlights

• 02:21 – Finding His Calling Beyond Politics: The conversation with his father that changed Rick's direction
• 03:30 – The Power of Family Influence: How his parents shaped his confidence, entrepreneurial spirit, and teaching style
• 04:28 – A Wake-Up Call About Freedom: Why Rick became passionate about constitutional education
• 05:28 – Building Patriot Academy: Developing the next generation of civic leaders
• 06:42 – What We're Getting Wrong About Young People: Their desire for authenticity, purpose, and meaningful contribution
• 08:33 – From Outrage to Civil Discourse: Why listening and humility matter more than winning arguments
• 11:28 – Putting Freedom Into Action: Rick's practical 2-2-2 framework for making a difference

His father’s voice was still there. In a letter.

At 19, Blake Brewer lost his father in a snorkeling accident during a family vacation in Hawaii. Hours later, his mother found a letter in his father’s briefcase—one he had intended to give Blake on that trip. His father was gone, but his words remained. More than two decades later, Blake still returns to that letter.

In this episode, I sit down with Blake, founder of Legacy Letter, to hear how that experience became a mission to help one million people write a letter to their families. We spend years building businesses, providing for our children, and planning what we’ll leave behind. But how much thought do we give to what we’re leaving in them? Do they know how deeply we love them, what we admire about them, and why we believe in their future?

Blake shares a practical framework for putting those things into words, including a section many parents would rather skip: the apology. We talk about why good intentions don’t always translate into close relationships, how pride can keep us from saying what needs to be said, and why “I’m doing it for my family” deserves an honest look.

We also discuss when to give the letter, why your child’s initial reaction may tell you very little about its lasting value, and how this personal exercise has helped business teams connect. For anyone who has been meaning to say more to the people they love, this conversation offers a place to start—and a reason to follow through.

EPISODE LINKS:

Learn more about Blake Brewer and Legacy Letter: LegacyLetter.com

Learn more about Freedom Founders: FreedomFounders.com

Request your free copy of The Exit-Optional Playbook: ExitOptional.com

HIGHLIGHTS:

02:59 – The family vacation that changed Blake’s life
06:46 – The letter his father left behind
11:56 – Why “my kids know I love them” can leave room for doubt
14:20 – What to include in a legacy letter—and why apology matters
17:05 – Give the letter now: Why you don’t need to wait
23:03 – A father’s letter that brought his daughter home
24:20 – When “I’m doing it for my family” deserves a closer look
27:16 – How legacy letters helped business teams connect
28:34 – Defining success by the family relationships you’re building
30:23 – Words your children can hear from you today

You’ve probably spent years being told that putting money into a 401(k), IRA, or other retirement account is the responsible thing to do.

Make the contribution. Take the deduction. Let it grow.

But there is a part most busy doctors rarely think about:

Eventually, the IRS wants its money back.

If you build a large pre-tax retirement account without a plan for how that money will come out, what looked like a tax strategy may turn out to be a tax delay.

That matters because once required minimum distributions begin, you lose some control. The government determines that money must come out, and those distributions can increase your taxable income whether you need the money or not.

In this episode, I sit down with Nate Hare to unpack what that means in practical terms.

We discuss:

• Why tax deferral and tax elimination are very different
• What required minimum distributions could mean for your future income
• How Roth conversions can create more flexibility later
• Why the years after you reduce active income may be a critical planning window
• How self-directed retirement accounts can expand your investment options
• Why certain investments may belong inside retirement accounts while others may not
• How large pre-tax accounts can create an unexpected tax burden for your heirs

You do not need to become a retirement-account expert.

But you do need to understand the basic tradeoff.

The decisions you make while you are earning at your peak can either preserve flexibility later—or quietly reduce it.

That is what this episode is really about.

Not tax tricks.

Optionality.

The ability to decide when income appears, when taxes are paid, and how much control you retain over the wealth you spent decades building.

EPISODE LINKS:

Directed IRA: https://directedira.com
Learn more about Nate Hare and self-directed retirement accounts.

Directed IRA Appointments: https://directedira.com/appointment/
Connect with Nate and the Directed IRA team.

Freedom Founders: https://www.freedomfounders.com
Learn more about becoming financially independent and exit-optional.

HIGHLIGHTS:

00:00 – Why retirement accounts deserve more attention than most business owners give them

01:34 – What you may be allowed to own beyond stocks and mutual funds

06:58 – Why self-directed accounts appeal to entrepreneurial investors

08:52 – The difference between tax-deferred and tax-free retirement income

11:00 – Why Roth conversions may matter more than the deduction you received years ago

24:00 – The danger of a large pre-tax retirement account with no exit strategy

26:00 – What required minimum distributions actually mean for your future income

28:00 – How your retirement account can create a tax problem for your children

29:16 – The planning window between reducing active income and required distributions

33:47 – Why you should diversify your tax exposure, not just your investments

40:43 – How high-income earners may still be able to get money into Roth accounts

The investments that performed well during the era of cheap money may carry far more risk today—even when the projected returns still look familiar.

In this episode, I sit down with longtime real estate investor and former private banker Anna Kelley to examine what higher interest rates, a weakening labor market, and the growing wall of maturing debt could mean for everyday investors. Anna explains why the Federal Reserve is caught between persistent inflation and recessionary pressure—and why waiting for rates to simply “go back down” may not be a sound investment strategy.

We also look closely at multifamily real estate, where rising rates have erased 40% or more of the value of some properties. Even experienced operators are struggling to refinance debt, preserve investor capital, and hold assets together. The problem is not always poor execution. Sometimes the economic assumptions that made a deal work have fundamentally changed.

Most importantly, Anna translates the economic headlines into decisions investors can actually make. We discuss how to determine whether a prospective return adequately compensates you for the risk, why liquidity and diversification deserve renewed attention, and when protecting capital matters more than pursuing another double-digit return.

This conversation ultimately goes beyond markets. Anna shares how financial margin gave her the ability to step away from work when her health and family needed her. Because the real purpose of liquidity is not to win an argument about portfolio allocation. It is to preserve your ability to respond when life refuses to follow the plan.

EPISODE LINKS:
Learn more about Anna Kelley: https://annakelleyinvesting.com/

Learn more about Freedom Founders: http://FreedomFounders.com

HIGHLIGHTS:
00:00 – Introduction
01:58 – The Fed’s conflict between inflation and a weakening economy
04:39 – What the employment headlines may be missing
05:53 – Why Anna sees a stagflationary environment
10:36 – Growth, income, or preservation: What is your priority?
14:37 – How to tell whether a return justifies the risk
19:26 – Why multifamily worked so well during the low-rate era
27:00 – How higher rates erased 40–50% of some property values
28:44 – The refinancing wall facing real estate operators
31:09 – The liquidity signal Anna is watching now
34:39 – Why maturing debt through 2029 could create a larger crisis
39:35 – What individual investors can do with this information
42:16 – How debt and the Great Financial Crisis cost Anna a decade
44:06 – Learning to sit patiently on cash
45:02 – Building multiple income streams and an all-weather portfolio
45:45 – When building wealth leaves no room for life
48:02 – Why bigger is not always better

Personal sovereignty starts with taking responsibility for your own life. David Phelps reconnects with entrepreneur, author, speaker, and business and mindset strategist Lee Milteer to discuss resilience, independent thinking, intentional habits, preparedness, entrepreneurship, and why protecting your attention and surrounding yourself with the right people matter in a rapidly changing world.

EPISODE LINKS:
Learn more about Lee Milteer: https://milteer.com/
Free Five Types of Energy video series: https://fivetypesofenergy.com/

Learn more about Freedom Founders: http://FreedomFounders.com

HIGHLIGHTS:

00:00 – Intro
14:08 – Building a Fearless Mindset
18:11 – Lessons From Dan Kennedy
27:38 – Stop Following the Crowd
33:05 – Your Habits Create Your Life
45:31 – Protect Your Attention
50:23 – Staying Relevant in the Age of AI
52:57 – Why Masterminds Matter

For high achievers, success can become a moving target.

You hit the goal. Make more money. Build the business. Earn the recognition.

And somehow, it still doesn’t feel like enough.

In this conversation, David sits down with Brad Chandler to explore the deeper beliefs that can drive achievement, workaholism, and the constant need to prove yourself.

Brad shares how his own pursuit of success was shaped by a need for validation—and how that drive showed up in his business, relationships, and personal life. After years of building, producing, and chasing bigger outcomes, he began examining a different question:

What if the next level of success isn’t the thing that fixes what you’re actually trying to solve?

David and Brad discuss the connection between achievement and self-worth, why accomplished entrepreneurs can still feel driven by “not enough,” and what changes when you begin separating who you are from what you accomplish.

Brad Chandler is a successful real estate investor and entrepreneur who has completed more than 4,500 real estate transactions. After building Express Home Buyers, his own personal journey led him into work focused on helping high achievers better understand the beliefs and patterns driving their behavior.

EPISODE LINKS:
Learn more about Brad Chandler: UnlockLimitlessYou.com/Brad

Learn more about Freedom Founders: FreedomFounders.com

HIGHLIGHTS:

• Success, Achievement and the Need to Prove Yourself
• The Beliefs Behind High Achievement
• Brad’s Own Pursuit of Money and Validation
• When Success Still Doesn’t Feel Like Enough
• The Hidden Cost of Workaholism
• Separating Self-Worth From Achievement
• How Old Patterns Show Up in Business and Relationships
• What Changes When You Stop Trying to Prove Yourself
• Redefining Success From the Inside Out

What happens when the growth strategy that built your business becomes the very thing that breaks it?

Mark Drager built a digital marketing agency from scratch starting in 2006, growing it into a multi-million dollar company working with international brands, national airlines, and NBA teams. Then COVID hit, wiping out 70% of his revenue overnight.

Mark and David dig into the real story behind that collapse — not just the pandemic, but the slow erosion that came before it: chasing bigger clients, saying yes to too many services, and losing the profit margins that made the business work in the first place.

They talk rebuilding, realigning his team and client base around who he actually wanted to serve, and why "being known for one thing" beats trying to be everything to everyone. Mark closes with the single piece of advice he'd give any business owner: stop trying to compete on being better, and start competing on being different.

Episode Links
Connect with Mark Drager - https://www.markdrager.com/

Get David Phelps' Exit Optional Playbook – https://exitoptional.com

Highlights Of Our Conversation
00:00 – Intro
05:08 – Starting a Digital Agency at 23
10:16 – Growing Your Way Out of a Problem Doesn't Work
14:28 – Cutting Services and the Trap of "Doing More"
19:16 – Downsizing 24 Employees When 70% of Revenue Disappeared
22:17 – Realigning the Business Around Culture, Not Just Clients
26:19 – Why Differentiation Beats Being "Just As Good"
32:28 – The Shift Toward Manufacturing and Local Trades

At some point, more money stops meaningfully changing your life.

Jason Medley has experienced both sides of that equation. After losing nearly everything in 2008, he rebuilt, created significant financial success, and eventually reached a point where money no longer provided the same reward it once did.

That forced a different question: If more money isn’t going to change your life, what will?

In this conversation, Jason and David explore how our definition of wealth changes as we move through different seasons of life. They discuss relationships, family, faith, health, business growth, financial discipline, and the difference between continuing to build because you love creating versus building because you still believe the next number will finally make you feel successful.

They also dig into the pressures that come with leadership, why growth can create stress even inside a highly profitable business, and why successful entrepreneurs need relationships with people who understand the challenges that often remain invisible from the outside.

Jason Medley is the founder and CEO of The Collective Genius, a community of high-level real estate investors and entrepreneurs. He has more than two decades of experience in real estate and finance and has built his career around business, investing, leadership, and creating meaningful relationships.

EPISODE LINKS:
Learn more about The Collective Genius: TheCollectiveGenius.com

Learn more about Freedom Founders: FreedomFounders.com

HIGHLIGHTS:
00:00 — Defining Wealth Beyond Money
00:30 — Meet Jason Medley
04:44 — When More Money Stops Changing Your Life
08:44 — The Origins of Collective Genius
11:23 — Scaling Through People and Impact
14:21 — Why He Still Loves to Build
16:42 — The Hidden Stress of Business Growth
20:04 — Building a Financial Moat
25:23 — The Challenge of Leading People
31:33 — Why Successful People Still Need Community