She ordered Michigan to stay on lockdown through mid-May. He thinks the measures are too extreme. Today, we speak to them both.

Guests: Gov. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan and Phil Campbell, a vice president of a pest control company whose revenues have been halved during lockdown. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

Background reading:

• Two weeks ago, President Trump announced that governors would be on their own to decide when to ease lockdown restrictions. The day after his announcement, he called for Michigan’s liberation on Twitter. Raucous protests ensued.
• After becoming a prominent foil of the president, Ms. Whitmer is now being considered as a potential vice-presidential pick in the election.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.