While so much of the global conversation about climate change supposes slowing economic growth, Pakistan is showing us how investing in the environment isn't just a source of economic growth — it can provide employment to those who have lost jobs during COVID-19. We speak with Naheed Shah Durrani, the Federal Secretary for the Ministry of Climate Change in Pakistan on the country's ambitious programme to plant 10 billion trees. We’ll also hear about how making such a large investment in climate change became politically feasible and how Pakistan’s “debt for nature” swaps that reduce national debt in favour of investments in the environment might work. This interview was recorded on June 8, 2020.