Ranger William and Adrian are joined by HBCUI Intern Cassie Chandler to discus what HBCUI is and how perceptions shape history.

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[sound effects of musket shots, men shouting, and horses running]

William: I’m Ranger William from the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: Together we will explore some of the well known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the History.

[sound effects of musket shots, men shouting, and horses running]

William: So today we are joined by Cassie Chandler, an HBCU intern who is working with Cowpens National Battlefield. Cassie, thanks for joining us.

Cassie: It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

William: Uh, so before we get into kind of what this program is and the work that you've been doing here at a Cowpens National Battlefield, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from?

Cassie: I am from a small town outside of Charlotte, NC. It's called Waxhaw, North Carolina. It is me, my brother and my mom and dad, and I just recently graduated from the best HBCU, Benedict College, located in Columbia, SC, and I majored in Mass Communication.

William: Great. And that actually kind of brings us right into my next question about what is the HBCUI program? You said you just graduated from an HBCU, a historically black college or university, so what is this program that you're in?

Cassie: So this program is called HBCUI under the Greening Youth Foundation and it is an awesome program. This program is a nonprofit organization to give HBCU students all around the United States internships at national parks, historical sites, battlefields, etcetera.

Adrian: Alright, Cassie. So what first interested you in being a part of the HBCUI program?

Cassie: OK, so I love this question. So growing up, I was always kind of outdoorsy person, but actually my family, we always went to a lot of State Park just because of the area where we lived in. So I didn't really know about national parks or any really, how they even tied in with the federal government. Going to my sophomore year with COVID and everything, I had a lot of friends who were a couple years above me that attended Benedict that was in the Greening Youth Foundation HBCUI, so I had a couple friends who were at national parks in Georgia and also a friend who was at Saint Genevieve, which is a newer National Park. And he really got me connected with the supervisors and just the Greening Youth in general. And I was and I just applied and I was like, this is where my interest is, and FYI this is actually my second summer on doing this program. My first one was at Harpers Ferry National Historical Park

Adrian: Nice.

Cassie: Yes, and I'm happy to be here at Cowpens and hopefully yes, my love for national parks, all that, all that can grow.

William: Now, you said that this is your second summer. So this is a program for students while they're still in school, as well as recent graduates?

Cassie: Yes, yes it is. I do believe you can do it till you are 25. If I'm not mistaken, don't quote me on that, but yes, it is for students who after they graduated, they still have a love for this and they do qualify. It is for them as well.

William: Fantastic. Umm, so now you said that you had been at a Harpers Ferry National Historical Park before and this is kind of your first Revolutionary War National Park site. Now I'm sure growing up in the Waxhaw area, you maybe have heard a little bit about the Revolution, the battle that happened over there, but what is kind of some of the more interesting kind of topics and stories that you found while being with the National Park Service at a Revolutionary War site? Kind of being on this on this side behind the curtain?

Cassie: So this side behind the curtain is very informative. A lot of information and definitely about certain umm generals and colonels and captains. That's why I really like. Growing up in the Waxhaw area, we did learn a lot about the American Revolution as well, so being able to work as some, work somewhere where I have a lot of hands on material inside is amazing.

William: Now what would you say, one of your kind of favorite stories that you've kind of come across? Any certain person? Any certain story in particular that’s kind of really resonated with you?

Cassie: Absolutely. My favorite person, who I learned about so far, definitely has to be Andrew Pickens. He just he just really stood out as a sort of overall general guy, um, standing up, the the role he took inside the war, not just here at Cowpens, but other places as well. And I definitely found out in South Carolina he's definitely looked up to the most.

Adrian: OK, very cool.

William: It's that award winning smile of his right?

Cassie: Ohh, absolutely, absolutely.

Adrian: Yeah, that stoic look.

William: Such a charmer, that Pickens guy and the straight face.

Cassie: We love it. We love it.

Adrian: So while you've been doing your internship, and you've been learning about all these people, is there a certain topic that you decided to focus on for your internship?

Cassie: Absolutely. So sorry, if I'm jumping a question or two, but my, here in my internship I created an interpretive program, and that interpretive program is about perception during the American Revolution. So how back then these people saw things view things, etcetera. So jumping into that definitely about perception of the American Revolution and yeah.

William: Now I, I have more questions.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: That is a fascinating topic there.

Cassie: Yes.

William: So looking at their, their perception. You're coming from their experiences, their worldview, how they understood certain things. Is your program more of examining what their perspective, what their perception was to better understand them? Or was it more of a umm, here is their perception, therefore they understood it and then comparing that with some of our 21st century modern perceptions?

Cassie: So honestly, a little a little bit, yes, both in both of those answers. To definitely understand them and seeing the way how they move seeing the way, how, how even why they had the Continental like this, the militia like this or, or the, or the formation of this way, how they did things this way, trade, so on and so forth. And then definitely seeing that with envisioning the visitors and talking to the visitors like if you were in those same shoes being that role would you have done things this way? And so on and so forth.

William: I got you. I'm reminded sometimes of conversations I have with visitors where they’re questioning the decisions of a battlefield commander or of a campaign strategist. And they say, oh, well, that was so foolish. That was such a bad idea. Why would they ever do that?

Cassie: Right.

William: OK, wait a second. We have to look at it from their perception, their perspective.

Adrian: Well, and it's a whole lot easier to look at something afterward and be like, well, you should have done this.

Cassie: Exactly. Exactly.

Adrian: Well, you're not in the moment when that happens, we get that a lot at Ninety Six.

Cassie: I bet. And then we have to also think about technology and stuff then. But a lot of people don't realize all those war tactics and mindset. All those decision making back then we do, we use a lot of that nowadays and today's warfare and stuff like that.

Adrian: We do, yeah.

Cassie: Just of course to a higher extent and maybe a little bit better decision making. But we also have to think this was hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

Adrian: Well, there's a reason that we still get Staff rides for military groups.

Cassie: There you, exactly, exactly.

William: Great example. Okay so on this topic of perceptions and perspectives, is is there one story in particular, one person's perception that you've kind of been focusing on with your work in developing this battlefield tour, this interpretive program at Cowpens National Battlefield?

Cassie: Absolutely. So when I first got here to Cowpens, there was this painting here that really stood out to me as a painting by William T Ranney. And he is painting a picture of a little interaction, a little sword fight between William Washington and some British soldiers. And then in the bottom left corner there is a little African American boy firing at a British soldier, saving William Washington's life. And that really stood, that painting really stood out to me. And then when I got to go on the battlefield myself, I was able to see a wayside of that same painting. So I really wanted that to be a part of my program and of course asking the Park Rangers like where do I start? How I get this information? So of course just doing research and stuff like that later down the line, find out you know that little African American boy was actually a little white boy from Virginia, and he was actually William Washington's trump, um, trumpeter. And I'm like, why in the world did Ranney painting in this way? And just reading these chain letters and this kinda almost game of telephone later down line realizing that his perception in the way how he was reading this letter, painting his picture in his mind, he perceived it as this little black boy instead of this little white boy from Virginia. So I definitely had to make that a program just in itself.

William: You're looking at not only the perception of Revolutionary War actors, the people who are in the moment, the decisions they're making, but even kind of getting into the historiography of it. Of these early history, these early depictions, how have historians in the 19th, early 20th century, how have they perceived moments, actions, people through their worldviews of the late 19th century of the early 20th century rather than trying to understand the 18th century terminology. That's that's fascinating because this, this is something that we are we are still in. You know we, when you look at history, there are events that happened and we learn about them, we study them, we share them, we teach about them. But the historiography; the how do we tell about it? How are we doing the history? That is something that we are on the cutting edge of today and we are always developing and changing and trying to ensure that we are telling the truest story possible. So this is, that's a fascinating topic. I'm really happy to hear that you found something that really kind of connected with you so much

Adrian: So in all of your research and your studies while you've been here for almost two months now, what is something that you think people don't understand about the American Revolution that is important?

Cassie: That's a great question. So on some days when I'm doing operations I get so many visitors coming up and saying like ohh we didn't know this was American Revolution. We thought this was a Civil War battlefield, which, even though that was a very important time in in the world, I just think just honestly visitors and just people understanding that the American Revolution, it didn't just start at Cowpens or started at Ninety Six, or etcetera, but it's all connected. So I really, so when people come I really tell them, OK, learn all you can here and then make sure you go to NinetySix, or you make sure you go to Kings Mountain cause it's all connected for one common goal, which was of course to break away from the British and for us to be our own.

William: Especially I imagine where you said you really enjoyed learning more about Andrew Pickens. This Patriot officer who was at so many events and campaigns and saw so much service for the Patriot cause.

Adrian: And such a leader in the community.

Cassie: Absolutely.

William: Absolutely. When you look at a historic moment or a battle, it's easy to say, OK, here's this battle, here's what happened, beginning and end of the story right there. But when you look at it through this other way through these stories and these people, like you're saying, Cassie, you see these numerous events, these multiple battles and how they're connected through this person's life. So that's something that we do try to highlight. Actually, it's kind of one of the reasons we started this whole, you know, podcast, right Adrian?

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Is to show these connections between these different events and these different people within the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: And I think people will start to realize that even within the, you know, the Southern theater like ohh, look, this people creep over to the north. There is all the Northerners are coming down here for the Southern Theater.

Cassie: Exactly.

Adrian: So yeah, all connected.

Cassie: All connected.

William: And so speaking of connections at the time of this recording, we are closing in on the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, of the American Revolution. Again, at the time of this recording, we're only a few years away from the 250th anniversary of the First Battle of Ninety Six. Took place in 1775, 2025 will be the 250th mark

Adrian: Right around the corner.

William: It's closing in fast. So there's so many programs going on out there, the America 250, the A250, the different state commissions, making sure that this event is commemorated and remembered properly. Cassie, what did you think, in your opinion, what is something that you would like to see or you think would be important to see to help these 250th remembrances be done correctly?

Cassie: I would definitely say for both of these anniversaries should be done connecting correctly is to, let's do our best and make the visitor feel like they were really there. To not only honor, but to celebrate just the amazing accomplishments, everything that went down in both of these places. Just with, just with, you know, like kind of like what we're doing with you, what you're doing with with the with Overmountain Victory Trail, just the five senses. So maybe having music, our reenactors, our Park Rangers, everyone really lending a helping hand and just giving the not only the visions the experience, but also commemorating as well.

William: I'm gonna dovetail into that with why? Why do you think it would be so important to be able to have that interactive multiple sensory approach to commemorations?

Cassie: Ohh, because I do think a lot of people don't really understand unless they can put their, if they can put themselves in their shoes. And that might be little things we, with you know, stations where they can put on the hat, they can put on the jacket, or just listening to what they have done then, they smell the campfire, etcetera.

Adrian: Making some kind of connection, basically.

Cassie: Absolutely.

Adrian: I know you're about to leave us in like a week...

Cassie: I know.

Adrian: But what's something that you hope you've left behind? Like the legacy that you've left behind in the time that you've been here?

Cassie: Ohh great question. I would like to think I left behind a really, really good program, so the Park Rangers or even the other interns that come through Cowpens can of course perfect it and eat and just make visitors really, really think and understand the importance not only national parks, but perception, maybe even making some kind of even relatable connection to these to these generals, to these colonels, to to even William T Ranney, the artist, to not paint these pictures like ohh, he's such a bad guy, he just he just put two and two together, he didn't take the time to think. But no, just to really think this is, this is in the late 17, early 1800s. Put yourself in his shoes. And he was trying to leave a mark on history just like how NPS is trying to do as well, but also trying to preserve people's thoughts and history in general.

Adrian: OK, cool.

William: I like that. I really like how you how you pointed out that yes, with our current research that we have, we know that the scene depicted in William Ranney's painting is is inaccurate, it’s Incorrect, but that doesn't make him wrong necessarily. He was acting on the best information he had at that time. Oh, I like that. Which, you know, kind of one more follow-up question about this whole topic of perception and kind of doing history. What do you imagine… this may be something that this may be something we have to cut out. What do you think may be something that you know 100 years… with talking about the America 250th anniversary. One kind of point of this these commemorations is it's the 250th anniversary since the declaration. Look how far we have come with how much we've done as a nation in those 250 years. Where are we going in the next 250 years? So what do you think may be something for example 100 years from now, 2030… I'm sorry, that's wrong.

Adrian: 2123.

William: Yeah, 100 years from now, 2123. What is something that you think maybe has changed with the park interpretation? With how we are telling and sharing these stories?

Cassie: These are these are just great questions.

William: Or what is something that you would hope to see different?

Cassie: I would hope to see different… hmm… I would hope to see different maybe like different optimisms, I I would say. Definitely more curiosity into this as well. A lot, a lot of people that are eager to understand something, to learn more, because his history cannot be erased. But to learn more, more even more research and yeah.

William: So kind of that constant progression of constantly always looking for new places, always looking for more information to add to get that fuller understanding of the stories. Something that I think would be really need to see is kind of a shift away from the great man theories.

Cassie: Hmm.

Adrian: Hm, yeah.

William: There's so much focus on the commanders and the generals, which of course is important and it will never be removed, umm, but the addition of something like you were saying, Cassie, of the the people and their kind of the wholeness of their person. So not only are we gonna talk about like, for example with the Overmountain Victory Trail, we're not just gonna talk about the Overmountain leaders and Patrick Ferguson, let's talk about Patrick Ferguson when he was a kid. Let's talk about the, some examples of the enlisted men, of the men on the line, the boots on the ground and more about who they were as a person, not just their role at the battle. It's like you're saying better understand where they're coming from. Understand their perspective, their perception better, along with just the commanders. It's something I think would be really neat to see moving forward.

Cassie: I agree.

Stewart: I'm kind of along the same lines. I've always like, like you said, you can't completely, you can't take out the leaders and everything. That's always gonna be important. But I've always found the little man interesting, or the the support, you know the women, the ones that… the untold stories we've been saying that a lot the last, like couple months, years. But it's true, those, those stories of the people that were maybe not playing the role of the leader, but were supporting and, you know, just trying to live their lives, that type of stuff. I’ve always found fascinating.

William: Yeah, a general, can't do a lot without the guys in the army.

Adrian: Exactly.

Cassie: True, that's true.

Adrian: Well, I've always, when I was in high school, I would always be like, OK, well, just because he's king, he can't be king if he doesn't have the nation to rule and that nation is made up of all these little peons like.

Cassie: Agreed.

William: I’m gonna go declare myself king of my garage. Kingdom of one. Well, fantastic. Well, you know, thanks so much, Cassie, for sitting down and talking with us about the HBCUI program, about your internship at Cowpens National Battlefield. If you want to learn a little bit more about where Cassie has been working, Cowpens National Battlefield, you can check them out at w w w.n p s.gov/ C O W P, and Cassie what would be a good a good contact a good place for people who maybe want to learn more about the Greening Youth Foundation and about the HBCUI program?

Cassie: Absolutely. Again, you can go on to their website, w w w.greeningyouth.gov, no, .org, excuse me. And you can find as much information about that as well.

William: Great. Well, that's gonna wrap up this episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern theater of the American Revolution. I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: I’m Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: So thank you all for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we’ll see y’all next time we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye!

[sounds of musket shots, soldiers shouting, and horses running]